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Assuming that this was correctly spelled in the interwiki link to the Arabic Wikipedia, I have solved the Arabic spelling thing. Once someone verifies this, please remove this remark and the template above. Thanks. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:13, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
You are predictable, if nothing else, and approaching the bottom of the barrel level of the Holocaust deniers. -- Alberuni 04:31, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
All in all, your edits were reasonably NPOV; there were a couple of innaccuracies and distortions, but it looks to me like those originated from the heavily biased sources rather than bad-faith editing. What I found, and changed, was:
Fallows's article is the best source on this that I've read (I have the issue in which it appeared); unfortunately the only online version is restricted to Atlantic subscribers, though those who want to read it might try their local library. —No-One Jones (m) 11:49, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I recognize that this will probably be controversial, but considering the iconic status of his death, I believe it is appropriate. Any thoughts? —No-One Jones (m) 13:57, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Why this category? How were any hasbara groups involved? Jayjg 14:22, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Could someone explain to me why the opinion of WorldNetDaily is worth citing here? It's not like we've gone out to find balancing citations from rabidly pro-Palestinian sources, nor is it like they produced any evidence for their belief that the Palestinians have been so short on fatalities that they need to deliberately shoot Palestinian children to create martyrs. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:09, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)
WorldNetDaily didn't originate the conspiracy theory, and I've changed the article to reflect that. I also removed the quote of Fallows's position, since he didn't do any real investigation of his own; he just looked at the IDF findings and talked to the investigators. —No-One Jones (m) 21:01, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Alberuni writes, "yet you find the Atlantic Monthly IDF apologist article acceptable..." Excuse me? Did I say that? No, I was sticking my toe in the water on a discussion page which you, Alberuni, called to my attention (in an entirely repellent manner, I might add, by referring to it in a comment to an edit in which you stuck Holocaust Denial material into the article Jew). I wanted to see what response a mild criticism would bring. Unlike some people, I don't tend to use H-bombs for my opening salvo. But since you are questioning my good faith, here goes...
If one had read between the lines of my previous comment with charity rather than malice, one might have gleaned where I am headed on this. I was planning to get there gradually, but here goes: if we are going to quote sources like the Atlantic, we should be quoting sources like Al-Ahram. If we are going to quote "sources" like WorldNetDaily on a matter like this, then the only way I can imagine to "balance" this article is to quote severe critics of the Israeli occupation of the Territories, and probably throw in some jihadist who lauds Muhammad al-Durrah as a martyr.
In any case, this is obviously an article in flux, and way out of any area where I have specific expertise, but I certainly would not expect that in such a matter one should take seriously voices that say an IDF report understates Palestinian culpability, and one would presume that an IDF report is, itself, something that probably calls for balance from at least unengaged, or possibly even pro-Palestinian sources. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:19, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)
When you are done bickering, would any of you mind addressing the substance of what I wrote? Repeating: "...if we are going to quote sources like the Atlantic, we should be quoting sources like Al-Ahram. If we are going to quote "sources" like WorldNetDaily on a matter like this, then the only way I can imagine to "balance" this article is to quote severe critics of the Israeli occupation of the Territories, and probably throw in some jihadist who lauds Muhammad al-Durrah as a martyr... I certainly would not expect that in such a matter one should take seriously voices that say an IDF report understates Palestinian culpability, and one would presume that an IDF report is, itself, something that probably calls for balance from at least unengaged, or possibly even pro-Palestinian sources. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:37, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)
This page is about Muhammad Al-Durrah's murder, not about Zionist excuses for Israeli atrocities and anti-Palestinian conspiracy theories. Please move the revisionist material to an appropriate page. -- Alberuni 04:40, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Alberuni: Please understand that I'm not trying to deny anything; I'm just unsure about the extent of the evidence. I'm aware of these points:
Have I missed anything? Were there other investigations, other tests, other analyses? Has anyone examined the full video? (I don't think all of it was broadcast.) Was the soldier who was shooting ever questioned? Was there an autopsy? Did anyone examine the bullet that killed him to determine what kind of gun fired it? If there are answers to any of these questions, they should go in the article. —No-One Jones (m) 15:03, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
(hyperbole follows) If this is to stay on this article just because someone, somewhere, thought his death was a hoax, then I expect everyone who wants it here to help me keep it on an extensive list of articles. We shall start with Apollo missions 11 through 17 ( several people think those are hoaxes), move on to Holocaust and numerous related articles ( as before), move on to Evolution (I can find some who think that's a hoax), and so on. Who's up for it? — Charles P. (Mirv) 04:16, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
(going left again) The "innocent until proven guilty" is a good principle for an encyclopedia, don't you think?—Yes, quite, and it should apply equally to whoever is accused of staging the event. (I, for one, think the loss of critical pieces of evidence means that this case will never be proven one way or another, absent some unforeseen event like al-Durrah turning up alive or the shooter—whether Israeli, Palestinian, or atomic-powered Kill-Bot from Planet X—making a public confession.) Other events may have been hoaxes, or exaggerated, but I think the article makes it quite clear that the facts of this case are as disputed as can be, and it can do no more. — Charles P. (Mirv) 06:30, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Marcoo, I've copyedited your latest edits; I've reduced the incredibly long quotes, and removed the irrelevant material. Please recall this is an article about al-Durrah and the controversy, not about Enderlin's life, or what various Jewish organizations might or might not have done. Also note that the Atlantic article is quite clear that there was a 2nd IDF investigation; any investigation commissioned by the IDF would have to be, and the IDF accepted it's conclusions, as the quote by Samia, and subsequent statements by spokesmen show. If you have any concerns, please bring them here. Jayjg (talk) 19:14, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The article is about al-Durrah, and what happened to him, and the controversy about his death. It is not about Enderlin's personal problems. Jayjg (talk) 19:34, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've included that in the article; however, the House of Representatives stuff was not sourced. Jayjg (talk) 19:33, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
No, it's not sourced there at all. It simply claims that it happened; it doesn't say who said it, where, when, etc. That was my point. If we can't find the source, then we have no idea what was actually said. Jayjg (talk) 20:03, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
How do you know Gérard Huber is a Metula News Agency contributor, and why would that be relevant? Jayjg (talk) 19:36, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The controversy seems to long pre-date Mena's involvement, as the timeline shows, and this seems like extraneous detail meant to poison the well. Jayjg (talk) 20:02, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It has nothing to do with al-Durrah and who killed him; that's what this article focusses on. That kind of information, if properly sourced, belongs in the article on Enderlin, which also deals with the controversy from the perspective of Enderlin. Jayjg (talk) 20:02, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The part "Controversy" is about the controversy. And what happened to Enderlin is also about the controversy. You don't decide of what we can talk about and what we cannot. The controversy generate an hate climate, this article is the relevant place to talk about it. -- Marcoo 20:16, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Who are the "many French Jewish medias" who criticized Mena? Why would accusations about a Mena contributor unrelated to the controversy be relevant, except to poison the well? In what way did the "main Jewish associations in France refuse to take part of the controversy", and why would it be relevant? Jayjg (talk) 21:10, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Who are the "many French Jewish medias" who criticized Mena?" Most of community radios for example.
"In what way did the "main Jewish associations in France refuse to take part of the controversy", and why would it be relevant?" Please wait my answer before deleting the paragraph, and if you have after more questions, please give me time to answer... : Many associations asked Mena to give up the accusations. The fact that these associations in the past have criticized the role of medias on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and here gave support to Enderlin is an interesting aspect of the controversy, it's relevant to talk about it. -- Marcoo 21:24, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Why would accusations about a Mena contributor unrelated to the controversy be relevant, except to poison the well?" Because Mena is seen by many people in France as a race hate site. Guy Millière, supported by Mena (which supported Oriana Fallacci telling that "there's something with Arab people which is disgusting for ladies"), explained that :
"Les Israéliens et les Américains se tiennent debout et droits Je pense que l'Europe se fait honte à elle-même, et qu'à force de jouer avec le feu, les Arabo-musulmans finiront par se brûler. Il m'arrive même de souhaiter que la brûlure vienne vite"
Google's automatic translation :
"The Israelis and the Americans are held upright and rights I think that Europe is made shame with itself, and that by play with fire, the Arabo-Moslems will end up burning themselves. It even sometimes happens to me to wish that the burn comes quickly"
-- Marcoo 21:37, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Playing with fire, the Arab-Muslims will end up burning themselves. It even sometimes happens to me to wish that the burn comes quickly" is not racist ? -- Marcoo 22:51, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"their claim that it's obvious al-Durrah was shot from the Palestinian position" -> I didn't see anything proving that what they say is obvious. You have a very strong PoV on the controversy. For you all Enderlin arguements are silly... It's interesting but you have to let the article be built with argument's given by Enderlin, and associations who defended Enderlin. A neutral article cannot be written if more than 75 % is about opponent's thesis. -- Marcoo 22:51, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, if for you the paragraph :
After this campaign against him, Charles Enderlin explained he had to move with his family because of some death-threat letters. The campaign by the Metula News Agency (which is not a press agency) was critizised by many French jewish medias. Some contributors of Mena, as Guy Millière, have been accused by Anti-Racism french associations as MRAP, of Anti-Arab articles [22]. The main Jewish associations in France, which by the past have criticized the role of medias on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, refused to take part of the controversy.
is highly POV, re-write it to make it more neutral, but don't simply delete it, thank you. -- Marcoo 21:48, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Tell me, why is Enderlin's response to Leconte relevant, but Leconte's response to al-Durrah not?" -> I tried to do what you explained me. To cut all what it is not linked to Al-durrah. (see above : "It has nothing to do with al-Durrah and who killed him; that's what this article focusses on.") But I give up, I won't be able to be as aggressive as you.
You're talking about neutrality, but in the part "Controversy", more than 75 % is about arguements given by opponents to Enderlin. Do you think it's neutral ?-- Marcoo 22:11, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"the stuff you've put in is about everything else, about how many bullets the IDF fired in the West Bank and Gaza, about how many Palestinians have been killed, about what unnamed Jewish media outlets and organizations didn't do, about how long abu Rhama worked for France 2" -> You're not here to judge if the arguments given by Enderlin are relevant or not. He explained he gave these details to explain his claim. If we make an Wipipedia articles with only what Jayjg can find relevant, it's useless to talk more about neutrality. --
Marcoo 22:42, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, you deleted : "but he explained that this part was minutes before the death of al-Durrah." explaining it must be deleted because there is no source.
, but you even didn't notice that the whole paragraph was without any source ? Why do you delete a change coming from me when I don't give immediately my source, and you let it when it's a opponent's view, even without source ?
If you kindly ask me the source (I first guess it was useless to give it because I've supposed you have read the interview the paragraph is about), it is here :
"Quatrièmement ce qui est quand même très troublant qu’au moment où Talal Abou Rahma est en train de filmer la supposée agonie du gosse il y a à côté on filme des mises en scènes. DL et DJ : Avant, avant, avant, quelques minutes avant."
DL and DJ say that the "faked actions" are minutes "before" (avant) the death of Al-Durah.-- Marcoo 22:42, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"and I haven't deleted anything" -> Please don't play ironic games. You know that to put a paragraph in commentary has strictly the same effect than to delete it. --
Marcoo 22:55, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Wow. The new edition of Commentary has an article essentially arguing that the al-Durrah "event" was most likely staged. [23]. I've got a subscription to their online edition...if anyone who has worked on this entry would like a copy of the article, I could e-mail it to you for your private use. Not sure whether that would be a copyright vio. I actually don't think it would be. Babajobu 11:20, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
The above article shows conclusively that not everyone agrees that al-Durah was even killed. He might be walking around today and going to school; that is what some significant number of people believe. To be consistent with NPOV, you've got to qualify that initial identification. He wasn't "killed by gunfire," he was "reportedly killed by gunfire." That is something that everyone can agree with. -- 66.81.115.85 18:25, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
The entire discussion above misses the point of the original poster. The claim is that the article is now obviously not neutral, because it claims straightforwardly that Muhammad al-Durrah is dead. This is in dispute by serious investigators, and the fact that it is in dispute is itself not in dispute. Therefore, this dispute must be acknowledged in the article--the best place for it being at the end of the first paragraph.
All these doubts (and there are many, if you do much reading) could be put to rest if they would simply produce a grave. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.81.120.211 ( talk • contribs) 24 Sept 2005.
Maybe this Muhammad's death was staged or faked, or maybe it wasn't. Does it really matter? Does anyone doubt that children have died in this conflict despite their father's attempts to protect them? Do we have to have film of it to know it happened?Why be so vehement in the opposition to the basic principal that little boys have died from bullets fired by both sides. Let them rest in peace. -- 65.6.24.115 07:31, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
http://www.truthnow.org : the web site entirely dedicated to the Al Durrah case ! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.67.215.74 ( talk • contribs) 14:29, 12 October 2005.
Why do you write such an incredible thing ? That's only the web site of a french citizen who wants its public channel to respect its internal charte. Is not this something to be fully respected ? Could you try and explain us how you can be convinced of any political trends of this guy ? I must confess i am totally surprised by what you write. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.67.215.74 ( talk • contribs) 14:07, 13 October 2005.
Thanks to your advice, I have been deeper through this web site, but as far as i am concerned, my inquiry confirms what I thought: this guy is only trying and make ethic be respected in his country. I have noticed that he feels unfairly attacked by this kind of slander. Let me quote what I read from him on his web site ( http://www.truthnow.org/Members/webmestre/Document.2004-12-02.2822) He writes : "The technique employed to hide this truth is that of slandering those who desire to reveal it. Thus, we have often heard those who fight to have the true facts revealed described as extremists. Perjoratively labeled in this manner, no credence is given to what they wish to have others understand." I liked especially the following image he gave : "The truth is like the heart of a fruit that must be removed from the worthless inedible material that surrounds it. On the table of dictatorships, the undesirable fruits have been removed from the baskets. On the table of democracies, these undesirable fruits are left on the menu, but they are the fruits whose skin, scattered with thorns, often dissuade those who desire to discover the heart within it." And to finish : "To remove them from their covering requires infinite precaution because once you have been pricked by a thorn, in the eyes of the world you have contracted an incurable evil: inhuman, extremist, war like….none of which has any relevance to the truth that you are seeking to discover. It is in this manner that this forbidden fruit defends itself and it is in this manner that it will again try to defend itself by placing the thorns in the context of this lawsuit for slander, libel and threats." So it seems to me that we should try not to be ourselves manipulated by playing the game of those who would like a truth not to be revealed to the world. We have a big responsability. Best regards. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.67.215.74 ( talk • contribs) 15 Oct 2005.
Someone recently added this link:
I don't have time right now to look at what is apparently a video; "a new perspective" sounds to me to be either vacuuous or a euphemism; I'd recommend that someone take the time to look at this and, if it belongs here at all, to describe it in a way that indicates what it actually is. I suspect it is partisan, and so should be described in a way that makes its viewpoint apparent. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:40, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
A second link from the same site has now been added, again with what I find an objectionable caption.
This suggests a neutral site, but looking at the site it is nothing of the sort: it is a somewhat subtle propaganda site, but no less a propaganda site for its subtlety. For example:
We have already nearly all agreed in the past that the claims that the boy was not really killed are, at best, marginal. So why are we providing two links to a pseudo-scholarly site that claims just that? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:05, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I've allowed over 48 hours. No one has responded to the above. I am removing the links. - Jmabel | Talk 00:08, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
The controversy section is quite long and well documented. Serious issues have been made about the incident, with a large deal of evidence that it was staged. Please explain why this cannot be include in the opening paragraph. TDC 19:43, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
A concise summary section at the end of the article would be really nice. A lot of the article is devoted to changing public perception of the event and a back-and-forth over who probably fired the bullets, etc. If there were a summary of the following points, it would really help clear up the issue.
Also, I don't quite understand this: "Jamal al-Durrah was also shot and suffered critical injuries but survived after receiving emergency surgery in Jordan." Why did he go to Jordan? Event occured in the West Bank; it would have been necessary for him to travel across all of Isreal and the West Bank to get there. Why was he not treated in a Palestinian or Israeli hospital? In whole, though, the article is remarkably NPOV. -- AK7 21:15, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Very detailed about controversy. Lacking historical background, although that is to be understood as he was a child. Low B, but more than Start. Article will have to stabilize re: NPOV issues for it to become GA or greater. -- Avi 03:35, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I have been going through this, trying to clean up citations, changing them from blind links to proper references. As of the moment I'm writing this, I'm not quite finished, but I'm seeing two disturbing patterns, both of which suggest bias.
Please understand: I'm not saying that sources must be middle-of-the-road. There are plenty of sources very far from my own left-of-center politics that I will consider quite reliable for facts (National Review leaps to mind, as does the Wall Street Journal), but these two are not among them. - Jmabel | Talk 09:08, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Can anybody provide any links to prove that the IDF stated it was responsible for this alleged killing? Mieciu K 01:20, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
is there really a controversy about whether the boy died or not. i read in a german interview with the woman who made the tv documentary that she talked with the doctor that performed the autopsy...-- trueblood 12:27, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
sure i take it there is also a dispute to whether the fbi planned 9/11 but these claims are kept out of the main article -- trueblood 16:09, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
not quite convinced. the cause of his death might be disputed, but aren't the people that dispute his death more on the same level as the people that tell these 6000 jews did not come to work in ny on 9\11 stories? his father says he is dead, there was an autopsy performed. the israelian army even took responsibility at some point. do you think he lives with his family or what?-- trueblood 18:39, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I deleted the "Category: Living people" entry. IMHO, "Category: 2000 deaths" is probably right, but "Category: Possibly living people" is at least arguably applicable. Thoughts? TheronJ 20:18, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
This has now been placed, via a template, in Category:Biography articles of living people. Seems very problematic to me. - Jmabel | Talk 23:58, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I am very surprised that the web site http://www.truthnow.org has not yet been mentionned among the references of wikipedia on the Muhammad al-Durrah topic ! It's just the web site of a french citizen who have seized the french justice, not to accuse France Televisions of having made a stage, but to obtain, at least, that France Televisions officially says to his wiewers that it has never had any proof that this palestinian child was killed by israeli soldiers. Arlette Chabot (director of information of France Televisions) has told that France Televisions had never had any proof that would have unabled it to accuse Israeli Soldiers. But she told that only on a small french jewish radio. The citizen mentionned in http://www.truthnow.org wants her to tell the same thing, but on prime time during the TV news of France Televisions, in order to repair the consequences of an accusation without any proof that has been diffused on prime time several times during the TV news of France Televisions. He wants all the french citizens to know it and not only the few people that were listening to this french jewish radio when Arlette Chabot confessed her channel did not respect the journalistic deontology. In fact, he just asks the journalistic deontology to be respected by the french public channel. And "accusing without any proof" is considered to be one of the biggest faults that can make a journalist (Munich charte) That's all ! He never asked France Televisions to say Palestinian had killed the child. Nor did he ask France Televisions to say the child is alive. He just wants his public channel to rectify something that, according to its charte, it should rectify. A normal rectification that France Televisions tries to refuse him !That is the reason why he has transfered the question to the Human Rights European Court. This refusal is very important. It may show France Televisions has something to hide. Are french citizens who act as citizens going now to be qualified as extremists ? By not mentionning this web site, the only web site that gives people all the information about a VERY important plaint that is today beeing studied by the judges of the Human Rights European Court, i am afraid people do not understand why wikipedia censures such information. Best Regards. Bernard —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.67.215.128 ( talk • contribs) 11 October 2006.
Rama, i confess that the last sentence was not appropriated and do not correspond anyway to the way i see wikipedia. If you interpreted it like this, let's say i just expressed myself badly. No problem. But I am afraid i do not understand you. I found the web site
http://www.truthnow.org very important because i found that this plaint was clear and fair. I explained you clearly what this plaint was about. The only thing you answered me was that i was making the promotion of something. But of what exactly ? Of the fact that there is a plaint that I considere is important enough to be known by the readers of wikipedia ? What is the problem ? Is not this the rule of this encyclopedia ? To let know what can be of interest relatively to a topic ? Now if you give me a good reason for wikipedia to prevent such an information from reaching the article, no problem of course. But if possible a reason linked to the very web site and not to what some other people may say about it as i read already in this page. Sincerely.—The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
81.67.215.128 (
talk •
contribs) 11 October 2006.
Can someone give clearly a good reason to prevent wikipedia readers from having this critical information relative to the fact that the Al Dura case is now beeing judged by the Human Rights European Court ? And to the fact that the CSA (french equivalent to FCC) as well as the Conseil d'Etat (highest french administrative court) avoid this case for which, howewever, they have been seized ? And if posssible any other reason than the one consisting in writing that the http://www.truthnnow.org would be extremist, which makes absolutely no sense ! Thank you in advance.
I think the controversy section takes up way too much of this article. It needs to be whittled down to at least half the current length. Suicup 12:46, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Excerpts: "sought sanctuary in vain" "as bullets rained down around them" "waving desperately," "eventually hit" "collapsed in his father's arms," and "the trapped pair." Refrain from removing the TotallyDisputed template until this eulogy is made encyclopedic. KazakhPol 02:45, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Rama, do you have an English source for your recent edit? This one indicates there was just a token fine, not a "condemnation for libel," but I don't know which is correct. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:44, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree that his name should be stated first instead of the camerman's but we shouldnt say "was" because thats passive voice. I understand the concern that it should say reported rather than just filmed the death - personally I highly doubt this kid is dead. KazakhPol 01:07, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
KazakhPol, thanks for leaving a note on my talk page. I feel the current lead is better, for a number of reasons. We can't talk about his "alleged death." Your first version started with someone else's name, which is not our usual format. We can't say he became "famous" when ... Talk of becoming "famous," of "alleged death" etc is disrespectful. SlimVirgin (talk) 13:12, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Amatulic, your lead isn't acceptable. That the boy didn't die is a tiny minority POV. We can't write the lead section as though it's a mainstream opinion; please read WP:NPOV. If you want to write the lead in accordance with that view, you'll have to produce some reliable published sources showing that it's a majority or significant-minority opinion. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:19, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Is there not a policy that says to avoid passive voice? If there is not then there should be. I am being completely geniuine in my rational here - if you go through my contributions you will see numerous instances in which I change passive voice to past tense for dead people. I would also like to point out, before this really goes any further, that HighInBC (and Jayjg on this specific issue) has yet to comment, and his input would be much appreciated as he has experience in providing third opinions. Additionally, SlimVirgin, I did not violate WP:3RR. KazakhPol 04:36, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
(Reset indent). I don't see anything in this article that alleges anything that is untrue or biased. By now, the controversy about the authenticity of the footage is so widespread that it is no longer a fringe point of view. I think perhaps we can resolve some of the noise on this by reworking the introduction to state that 1) the authenticity of the tape is questioned; and 2) this raises a number of secondary issues about whose bullets killed the boy, the identity of the boy, the behavior of the individuals, etc. This is tricky, since it isn't up to us to determine what is true. Assuming that the boy is dead, it would be offensive to question it; assuming that he isn't, it would be offensive to assert that he is. -- Leifern 21:01, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
KazakhPol, what is it that you feel makes no sense? SlimVirgin (talk) 21:15, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Curious what sources were used for this eulogy, I tried putting in some of the unsourced quotes into Yahoo! and guess what I found? The source is an incredibly reliable website called "AlBalagh" and the page [29] where some Wikipedia editor stole it from is entitled "Who Stole the Peace from the Holy Land?" Guess who "stole the peace." Here's a hint: Juden. KazakhPol
KazakhPol, you wrote: "until everything is sourced, the template remains." Can you say which claims still need sources? SlimVirgin (talk) 19:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I proposed conspiracy theory for the controversy because it's a conspiracy theory. Faat78 16:09, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
You said : "The term "conspiracy theory" is loaded language that implies a point of view that the conclusions have no basis or cannot be taken seriously." No, the term is used for 09/11 on Wikipedia. Faat78 00:43, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
The term is used for other articles because that's how they have been described by reliable sources. Which reliable sources have described the controversy of Durrah as a "conspiracy theory"? Oh, and please don't try to slip you POV in elsewhere, thanks. Jayjg (talk) 18:12, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Does a World Net Daily rehash conveying as gospel truth someone's column in the Los Angeles Times claiming that the incident was a fraud really rise to our standards for external links? In my view, if it does, then our standards need to be raised. - Jmabel | Talk 22:13, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I removed two links from the article, both with specific rationales. User:KazakhPol reverted me, explaining only that he was doing so "for obvious reasons", and without addressing my rationale at all, so I have removed these again, pending discussion.
Without answering me here, KazakhPol has again restored the latter link with the comment "rv whitewashing". I have no idea why he is questioning my motives, and, for what it is worth, I resent it. (For what it's worth, to the best of my memory, I have no significant history with this user, but I presume I do with some of the other contributors to this article, and I think they can vouch for me not being one to whitewash things.) I think this further reversion without discussion amounts to edit-warring. And I still think this link does not meet the standards of WP:EL. Will someone else please step into this situation so that this does not become a personal matter? Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 04:21, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
You donät think it's a bit undue weight to add links that support fringe theories? // Liftarn
As per WP:UNDUE we should not give undue weight to a handfull of far out theories regarding what happened. We should give the story and then have a breief mention about the controversies. Just as the article about Earth deals with the theory of the flat Earth. // Liftarn
Get real! A handfull of propagandaists have claimed it was staged. The rest of the world agrees he was shot dead. Don't let the tail wag the dog. // Liftarn
Interesting that Isarig should bring up the documentary that aired on German televesion, since the director of the documentary in question (Esther Shapira) has stated unequivocally that she believes al-Dura was killed that day. Granted, she believes he most likely killed by Palestinian, not Israeli, gunfire, but nonetheless she does not dispute that he was killed. Neither does James Fallows, or Denis Jeambar, or Daniel Leconte, dispute that al-Dura was killed. I don't believe the article should state as fact that al-Dura was killed by Israeli gunfire; there is room for reasonable doubt on that point. But all the serious journalistic accounts report that he was killed during an exchange of gunfire between IDF forces and Palestinian shooters. The theory that al-Dura was not killed, and the whole incident was staged, should be treated in Wikipedia in the same way as we do 9/11 conspiracy theories, that is, we can have an article that presents them without suggesting that they deserve as much attention as the consensus view. To say that al-Dura was "apparently" killed by gunfire, or put "alleged" in front of the word "shooting" wherever it appears, goes against the accepted WP:NPOV standards, since it suggests that there is serious doubt on the matter by journalists, when in fact there isn't. Sanguinalis 02:21, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
The Atlantic also has a lengthy article about this issue, in which many questions are raised about the authenticity of the incident. This is a really tricky problem - if this boy was actually killed (under any circumstances) it would be horrible to deny it; if he wasn't killed, it would be horrible to perpetuate a falsehood. But this is one of those things where if one aspect is in question, everything could potentially fall apart. "Alleged" does not imply something is true or untrue. We should be able to work this out. -- Leifern 13:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Some reliable sources to consider:
and so on... Looking at the list os references I find some sources that are not very reliable like blogs, personal websites, biased political organisations and so on. // Liftarn
OMG!!! did you just cite both BBC, the Guardian as reliable sources in regards to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict??? i'm beyond being unamused. will cite examples of media bias by those sources a little later.
small sample: the guardian: they found them huddled together.. more than 60 including 34 children .. final death toll of the event was 28 with 16 children but don't let that confuse the guardian who neglect even a retraction. (same with the BBC (4 out of 6 winner of HR bias media source between 2000-2006) and times.. you should really inspect honestreporting.com sometime).
In any event, what would they do other than to reiterate the same as everybody did disregarding factuality issues? see "jenin massacre syndrome". Jaakobou 18:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
So far no one has addressed the article from Time magazine that Liftarn found. So let's have it, Jaakobou, Leifern, Humus Sapiens, and Isarig: Is Time magazine a reliable source, or isn't it? A simple yes or no answer, please. Sanguinalis 15:04, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
The situation is this: We have reliable sources saying he is dead. We have no reliable sources saying he is not dead. Ergo: The article should say he is dead. // Liftarn
offtopic, please don't push guardian articles as "WP:RS" per my link from above (there's more blatant examples)... it would be hard to find an english source on this matter because the guy (head researcher) waited so long until he finally published his piece that no news source gave a rat's ass (pardon the language) about something more than 6 months ago... however, there seems to be allready enough linkage in hebrew to show validity to the researchers POV (he doesn't have cutting proof, apart from the father fumbling saying the boy isn't dead and later saying "he meant that he's not dead because he's with allah" (lol?)... and people in the market calling some kid "al dura" for looking spot on like the boy). Jaakobou 15:35, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Ah, I found http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,403831,00.html that is usable. It says the second investigation "casts serious doubts that the boy was hit by Israel defence forces' fire". // Liftarn
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Assuming that this was correctly spelled in the interwiki link to the Arabic Wikipedia, I have solved the Arabic spelling thing. Once someone verifies this, please remove this remark and the template above. Thanks. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:13, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
You are predictable, if nothing else, and approaching the bottom of the barrel level of the Holocaust deniers. -- Alberuni 04:31, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
All in all, your edits were reasonably NPOV; there were a couple of innaccuracies and distortions, but it looks to me like those originated from the heavily biased sources rather than bad-faith editing. What I found, and changed, was:
Fallows's article is the best source on this that I've read (I have the issue in which it appeared); unfortunately the only online version is restricted to Atlantic subscribers, though those who want to read it might try their local library. —No-One Jones (m) 11:49, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I recognize that this will probably be controversial, but considering the iconic status of his death, I believe it is appropriate. Any thoughts? —No-One Jones (m) 13:57, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Why this category? How were any hasbara groups involved? Jayjg 14:22, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Could someone explain to me why the opinion of WorldNetDaily is worth citing here? It's not like we've gone out to find balancing citations from rabidly pro-Palestinian sources, nor is it like they produced any evidence for their belief that the Palestinians have been so short on fatalities that they need to deliberately shoot Palestinian children to create martyrs. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:09, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)
WorldNetDaily didn't originate the conspiracy theory, and I've changed the article to reflect that. I also removed the quote of Fallows's position, since he didn't do any real investigation of his own; he just looked at the IDF findings and talked to the investigators. —No-One Jones (m) 21:01, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Alberuni writes, "yet you find the Atlantic Monthly IDF apologist article acceptable..." Excuse me? Did I say that? No, I was sticking my toe in the water on a discussion page which you, Alberuni, called to my attention (in an entirely repellent manner, I might add, by referring to it in a comment to an edit in which you stuck Holocaust Denial material into the article Jew). I wanted to see what response a mild criticism would bring. Unlike some people, I don't tend to use H-bombs for my opening salvo. But since you are questioning my good faith, here goes...
If one had read between the lines of my previous comment with charity rather than malice, one might have gleaned where I am headed on this. I was planning to get there gradually, but here goes: if we are going to quote sources like the Atlantic, we should be quoting sources like Al-Ahram. If we are going to quote "sources" like WorldNetDaily on a matter like this, then the only way I can imagine to "balance" this article is to quote severe critics of the Israeli occupation of the Territories, and probably throw in some jihadist who lauds Muhammad al-Durrah as a martyr.
In any case, this is obviously an article in flux, and way out of any area where I have specific expertise, but I certainly would not expect that in such a matter one should take seriously voices that say an IDF report understates Palestinian culpability, and one would presume that an IDF report is, itself, something that probably calls for balance from at least unengaged, or possibly even pro-Palestinian sources. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:19, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)
When you are done bickering, would any of you mind addressing the substance of what I wrote? Repeating: "...if we are going to quote sources like the Atlantic, we should be quoting sources like Al-Ahram. If we are going to quote "sources" like WorldNetDaily on a matter like this, then the only way I can imagine to "balance" this article is to quote severe critics of the Israeli occupation of the Territories, and probably throw in some jihadist who lauds Muhammad al-Durrah as a martyr... I certainly would not expect that in such a matter one should take seriously voices that say an IDF report understates Palestinian culpability, and one would presume that an IDF report is, itself, something that probably calls for balance from at least unengaged, or possibly even pro-Palestinian sources. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:37, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)
This page is about Muhammad Al-Durrah's murder, not about Zionist excuses for Israeli atrocities and anti-Palestinian conspiracy theories. Please move the revisionist material to an appropriate page. -- Alberuni 04:40, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Alberuni: Please understand that I'm not trying to deny anything; I'm just unsure about the extent of the evidence. I'm aware of these points:
Have I missed anything? Were there other investigations, other tests, other analyses? Has anyone examined the full video? (I don't think all of it was broadcast.) Was the soldier who was shooting ever questioned? Was there an autopsy? Did anyone examine the bullet that killed him to determine what kind of gun fired it? If there are answers to any of these questions, they should go in the article. —No-One Jones (m) 15:03, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
(hyperbole follows) If this is to stay on this article just because someone, somewhere, thought his death was a hoax, then I expect everyone who wants it here to help me keep it on an extensive list of articles. We shall start with Apollo missions 11 through 17 ( several people think those are hoaxes), move on to Holocaust and numerous related articles ( as before), move on to Evolution (I can find some who think that's a hoax), and so on. Who's up for it? — Charles P. (Mirv) 04:16, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
(going left again) The "innocent until proven guilty" is a good principle for an encyclopedia, don't you think?—Yes, quite, and it should apply equally to whoever is accused of staging the event. (I, for one, think the loss of critical pieces of evidence means that this case will never be proven one way or another, absent some unforeseen event like al-Durrah turning up alive or the shooter—whether Israeli, Palestinian, or atomic-powered Kill-Bot from Planet X—making a public confession.) Other events may have been hoaxes, or exaggerated, but I think the article makes it quite clear that the facts of this case are as disputed as can be, and it can do no more. — Charles P. (Mirv) 06:30, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Marcoo, I've copyedited your latest edits; I've reduced the incredibly long quotes, and removed the irrelevant material. Please recall this is an article about al-Durrah and the controversy, not about Enderlin's life, or what various Jewish organizations might or might not have done. Also note that the Atlantic article is quite clear that there was a 2nd IDF investigation; any investigation commissioned by the IDF would have to be, and the IDF accepted it's conclusions, as the quote by Samia, and subsequent statements by spokesmen show. If you have any concerns, please bring them here. Jayjg (talk) 19:14, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The article is about al-Durrah, and what happened to him, and the controversy about his death. It is not about Enderlin's personal problems. Jayjg (talk) 19:34, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've included that in the article; however, the House of Representatives stuff was not sourced. Jayjg (talk) 19:33, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
No, it's not sourced there at all. It simply claims that it happened; it doesn't say who said it, where, when, etc. That was my point. If we can't find the source, then we have no idea what was actually said. Jayjg (talk) 20:03, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
How do you know Gérard Huber is a Metula News Agency contributor, and why would that be relevant? Jayjg (talk) 19:36, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The controversy seems to long pre-date Mena's involvement, as the timeline shows, and this seems like extraneous detail meant to poison the well. Jayjg (talk) 20:02, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It has nothing to do with al-Durrah and who killed him; that's what this article focusses on. That kind of information, if properly sourced, belongs in the article on Enderlin, which also deals with the controversy from the perspective of Enderlin. Jayjg (talk) 20:02, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The part "Controversy" is about the controversy. And what happened to Enderlin is also about the controversy. You don't decide of what we can talk about and what we cannot. The controversy generate an hate climate, this article is the relevant place to talk about it. -- Marcoo 20:16, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Who are the "many French Jewish medias" who criticized Mena? Why would accusations about a Mena contributor unrelated to the controversy be relevant, except to poison the well? In what way did the "main Jewish associations in France refuse to take part of the controversy", and why would it be relevant? Jayjg (talk) 21:10, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Who are the "many French Jewish medias" who criticized Mena?" Most of community radios for example.
"In what way did the "main Jewish associations in France refuse to take part of the controversy", and why would it be relevant?" Please wait my answer before deleting the paragraph, and if you have after more questions, please give me time to answer... : Many associations asked Mena to give up the accusations. The fact that these associations in the past have criticized the role of medias on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and here gave support to Enderlin is an interesting aspect of the controversy, it's relevant to talk about it. -- Marcoo 21:24, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Why would accusations about a Mena contributor unrelated to the controversy be relevant, except to poison the well?" Because Mena is seen by many people in France as a race hate site. Guy Millière, supported by Mena (which supported Oriana Fallacci telling that "there's something with Arab people which is disgusting for ladies"), explained that :
"Les Israéliens et les Américains se tiennent debout et droits Je pense que l'Europe se fait honte à elle-même, et qu'à force de jouer avec le feu, les Arabo-musulmans finiront par se brûler. Il m'arrive même de souhaiter que la brûlure vienne vite"
Google's automatic translation :
"The Israelis and the Americans are held upright and rights I think that Europe is made shame with itself, and that by play with fire, the Arabo-Moslems will end up burning themselves. It even sometimes happens to me to wish that the burn comes quickly"
-- Marcoo 21:37, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Playing with fire, the Arab-Muslims will end up burning themselves. It even sometimes happens to me to wish that the burn comes quickly" is not racist ? -- Marcoo 22:51, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"their claim that it's obvious al-Durrah was shot from the Palestinian position" -> I didn't see anything proving that what they say is obvious. You have a very strong PoV on the controversy. For you all Enderlin arguements are silly... It's interesting but you have to let the article be built with argument's given by Enderlin, and associations who defended Enderlin. A neutral article cannot be written if more than 75 % is about opponent's thesis. -- Marcoo 22:51, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, if for you the paragraph :
After this campaign against him, Charles Enderlin explained he had to move with his family because of some death-threat letters. The campaign by the Metula News Agency (which is not a press agency) was critizised by many French jewish medias. Some contributors of Mena, as Guy Millière, have been accused by Anti-Racism french associations as MRAP, of Anti-Arab articles [22]. The main Jewish associations in France, which by the past have criticized the role of medias on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, refused to take part of the controversy.
is highly POV, re-write it to make it more neutral, but don't simply delete it, thank you. -- Marcoo 21:48, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Tell me, why is Enderlin's response to Leconte relevant, but Leconte's response to al-Durrah not?" -> I tried to do what you explained me. To cut all what it is not linked to Al-durrah. (see above : "It has nothing to do with al-Durrah and who killed him; that's what this article focusses on.") But I give up, I won't be able to be as aggressive as you.
You're talking about neutrality, but in the part "Controversy", more than 75 % is about arguements given by opponents to Enderlin. Do you think it's neutral ?-- Marcoo 22:11, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"the stuff you've put in is about everything else, about how many bullets the IDF fired in the West Bank and Gaza, about how many Palestinians have been killed, about what unnamed Jewish media outlets and organizations didn't do, about how long abu Rhama worked for France 2" -> You're not here to judge if the arguments given by Enderlin are relevant or not. He explained he gave these details to explain his claim. If we make an Wipipedia articles with only what Jayjg can find relevant, it's useless to talk more about neutrality. --
Marcoo 22:42, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, you deleted : "but he explained that this part was minutes before the death of al-Durrah." explaining it must be deleted because there is no source.
, but you even didn't notice that the whole paragraph was without any source ? Why do you delete a change coming from me when I don't give immediately my source, and you let it when it's a opponent's view, even without source ?
If you kindly ask me the source (I first guess it was useless to give it because I've supposed you have read the interview the paragraph is about), it is here :
"Quatrièmement ce qui est quand même très troublant qu’au moment où Talal Abou Rahma est en train de filmer la supposée agonie du gosse il y a à côté on filme des mises en scènes. DL et DJ : Avant, avant, avant, quelques minutes avant."
DL and DJ say that the "faked actions" are minutes "before" (avant) the death of Al-Durah.-- Marcoo 22:42, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"and I haven't deleted anything" -> Please don't play ironic games. You know that to put a paragraph in commentary has strictly the same effect than to delete it. --
Marcoo 22:55, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Wow. The new edition of Commentary has an article essentially arguing that the al-Durrah "event" was most likely staged. [23]. I've got a subscription to their online edition...if anyone who has worked on this entry would like a copy of the article, I could e-mail it to you for your private use. Not sure whether that would be a copyright vio. I actually don't think it would be. Babajobu 11:20, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
The above article shows conclusively that not everyone agrees that al-Durah was even killed. He might be walking around today and going to school; that is what some significant number of people believe. To be consistent with NPOV, you've got to qualify that initial identification. He wasn't "killed by gunfire," he was "reportedly killed by gunfire." That is something that everyone can agree with. -- 66.81.115.85 18:25, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
The entire discussion above misses the point of the original poster. The claim is that the article is now obviously not neutral, because it claims straightforwardly that Muhammad al-Durrah is dead. This is in dispute by serious investigators, and the fact that it is in dispute is itself not in dispute. Therefore, this dispute must be acknowledged in the article--the best place for it being at the end of the first paragraph.
All these doubts (and there are many, if you do much reading) could be put to rest if they would simply produce a grave. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.81.120.211 ( talk • contribs) 24 Sept 2005.
Maybe this Muhammad's death was staged or faked, or maybe it wasn't. Does it really matter? Does anyone doubt that children have died in this conflict despite their father's attempts to protect them? Do we have to have film of it to know it happened?Why be so vehement in the opposition to the basic principal that little boys have died from bullets fired by both sides. Let them rest in peace. -- 65.6.24.115 07:31, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
http://www.truthnow.org : the web site entirely dedicated to the Al Durrah case ! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.67.215.74 ( talk • contribs) 14:29, 12 October 2005.
Why do you write such an incredible thing ? That's only the web site of a french citizen who wants its public channel to respect its internal charte. Is not this something to be fully respected ? Could you try and explain us how you can be convinced of any political trends of this guy ? I must confess i am totally surprised by what you write. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.67.215.74 ( talk • contribs) 14:07, 13 October 2005.
Thanks to your advice, I have been deeper through this web site, but as far as i am concerned, my inquiry confirms what I thought: this guy is only trying and make ethic be respected in his country. I have noticed that he feels unfairly attacked by this kind of slander. Let me quote what I read from him on his web site ( http://www.truthnow.org/Members/webmestre/Document.2004-12-02.2822) He writes : "The technique employed to hide this truth is that of slandering those who desire to reveal it. Thus, we have often heard those who fight to have the true facts revealed described as extremists. Perjoratively labeled in this manner, no credence is given to what they wish to have others understand." I liked especially the following image he gave : "The truth is like the heart of a fruit that must be removed from the worthless inedible material that surrounds it. On the table of dictatorships, the undesirable fruits have been removed from the baskets. On the table of democracies, these undesirable fruits are left on the menu, but they are the fruits whose skin, scattered with thorns, often dissuade those who desire to discover the heart within it." And to finish : "To remove them from their covering requires infinite precaution because once you have been pricked by a thorn, in the eyes of the world you have contracted an incurable evil: inhuman, extremist, war like….none of which has any relevance to the truth that you are seeking to discover. It is in this manner that this forbidden fruit defends itself and it is in this manner that it will again try to defend itself by placing the thorns in the context of this lawsuit for slander, libel and threats." So it seems to me that we should try not to be ourselves manipulated by playing the game of those who would like a truth not to be revealed to the world. We have a big responsability. Best regards. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.67.215.74 ( talk • contribs) 15 Oct 2005.
Someone recently added this link:
I don't have time right now to look at what is apparently a video; "a new perspective" sounds to me to be either vacuuous or a euphemism; I'd recommend that someone take the time to look at this and, if it belongs here at all, to describe it in a way that indicates what it actually is. I suspect it is partisan, and so should be described in a way that makes its viewpoint apparent. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:40, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
A second link from the same site has now been added, again with what I find an objectionable caption.
This suggests a neutral site, but looking at the site it is nothing of the sort: it is a somewhat subtle propaganda site, but no less a propaganda site for its subtlety. For example:
We have already nearly all agreed in the past that the claims that the boy was not really killed are, at best, marginal. So why are we providing two links to a pseudo-scholarly site that claims just that? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:05, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I've allowed over 48 hours. No one has responded to the above. I am removing the links. - Jmabel | Talk 00:08, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
The controversy section is quite long and well documented. Serious issues have been made about the incident, with a large deal of evidence that it was staged. Please explain why this cannot be include in the opening paragraph. TDC 19:43, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
A concise summary section at the end of the article would be really nice. A lot of the article is devoted to changing public perception of the event and a back-and-forth over who probably fired the bullets, etc. If there were a summary of the following points, it would really help clear up the issue.
Also, I don't quite understand this: "Jamal al-Durrah was also shot and suffered critical injuries but survived after receiving emergency surgery in Jordan." Why did he go to Jordan? Event occured in the West Bank; it would have been necessary for him to travel across all of Isreal and the West Bank to get there. Why was he not treated in a Palestinian or Israeli hospital? In whole, though, the article is remarkably NPOV. -- AK7 21:15, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Very detailed about controversy. Lacking historical background, although that is to be understood as he was a child. Low B, but more than Start. Article will have to stabilize re: NPOV issues for it to become GA or greater. -- Avi 03:35, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I have been going through this, trying to clean up citations, changing them from blind links to proper references. As of the moment I'm writing this, I'm not quite finished, but I'm seeing two disturbing patterns, both of which suggest bias.
Please understand: I'm not saying that sources must be middle-of-the-road. There are plenty of sources very far from my own left-of-center politics that I will consider quite reliable for facts (National Review leaps to mind, as does the Wall Street Journal), but these two are not among them. - Jmabel | Talk 09:08, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Can anybody provide any links to prove that the IDF stated it was responsible for this alleged killing? Mieciu K 01:20, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
is there really a controversy about whether the boy died or not. i read in a german interview with the woman who made the tv documentary that she talked with the doctor that performed the autopsy...-- trueblood 12:27, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
sure i take it there is also a dispute to whether the fbi planned 9/11 but these claims are kept out of the main article -- trueblood 16:09, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
not quite convinced. the cause of his death might be disputed, but aren't the people that dispute his death more on the same level as the people that tell these 6000 jews did not come to work in ny on 9\11 stories? his father says he is dead, there was an autopsy performed. the israelian army even took responsibility at some point. do you think he lives with his family or what?-- trueblood 18:39, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I deleted the "Category: Living people" entry. IMHO, "Category: 2000 deaths" is probably right, but "Category: Possibly living people" is at least arguably applicable. Thoughts? TheronJ 20:18, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
This has now been placed, via a template, in Category:Biography articles of living people. Seems very problematic to me. - Jmabel | Talk 23:58, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I am very surprised that the web site http://www.truthnow.org has not yet been mentionned among the references of wikipedia on the Muhammad al-Durrah topic ! It's just the web site of a french citizen who have seized the french justice, not to accuse France Televisions of having made a stage, but to obtain, at least, that France Televisions officially says to his wiewers that it has never had any proof that this palestinian child was killed by israeli soldiers. Arlette Chabot (director of information of France Televisions) has told that France Televisions had never had any proof that would have unabled it to accuse Israeli Soldiers. But she told that only on a small french jewish radio. The citizen mentionned in http://www.truthnow.org wants her to tell the same thing, but on prime time during the TV news of France Televisions, in order to repair the consequences of an accusation without any proof that has been diffused on prime time several times during the TV news of France Televisions. He wants all the french citizens to know it and not only the few people that were listening to this french jewish radio when Arlette Chabot confessed her channel did not respect the journalistic deontology. In fact, he just asks the journalistic deontology to be respected by the french public channel. And "accusing without any proof" is considered to be one of the biggest faults that can make a journalist (Munich charte) That's all ! He never asked France Televisions to say Palestinian had killed the child. Nor did he ask France Televisions to say the child is alive. He just wants his public channel to rectify something that, according to its charte, it should rectify. A normal rectification that France Televisions tries to refuse him !That is the reason why he has transfered the question to the Human Rights European Court. This refusal is very important. It may show France Televisions has something to hide. Are french citizens who act as citizens going now to be qualified as extremists ? By not mentionning this web site, the only web site that gives people all the information about a VERY important plaint that is today beeing studied by the judges of the Human Rights European Court, i am afraid people do not understand why wikipedia censures such information. Best Regards. Bernard —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.67.215.128 ( talk • contribs) 11 October 2006.
Rama, i confess that the last sentence was not appropriated and do not correspond anyway to the way i see wikipedia. If you interpreted it like this, let's say i just expressed myself badly. No problem. But I am afraid i do not understand you. I found the web site
http://www.truthnow.org very important because i found that this plaint was clear and fair. I explained you clearly what this plaint was about. The only thing you answered me was that i was making the promotion of something. But of what exactly ? Of the fact that there is a plaint that I considere is important enough to be known by the readers of wikipedia ? What is the problem ? Is not this the rule of this encyclopedia ? To let know what can be of interest relatively to a topic ? Now if you give me a good reason for wikipedia to prevent such an information from reaching the article, no problem of course. But if possible a reason linked to the very web site and not to what some other people may say about it as i read already in this page. Sincerely.—The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
81.67.215.128 (
talk •
contribs) 11 October 2006.
Can someone give clearly a good reason to prevent wikipedia readers from having this critical information relative to the fact that the Al Dura case is now beeing judged by the Human Rights European Court ? And to the fact that the CSA (french equivalent to FCC) as well as the Conseil d'Etat (highest french administrative court) avoid this case for which, howewever, they have been seized ? And if posssible any other reason than the one consisting in writing that the http://www.truthnnow.org would be extremist, which makes absolutely no sense ! Thank you in advance.
I think the controversy section takes up way too much of this article. It needs to be whittled down to at least half the current length. Suicup 12:46, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Excerpts: "sought sanctuary in vain" "as bullets rained down around them" "waving desperately," "eventually hit" "collapsed in his father's arms," and "the trapped pair." Refrain from removing the TotallyDisputed template until this eulogy is made encyclopedic. KazakhPol 02:45, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Rama, do you have an English source for your recent edit? This one indicates there was just a token fine, not a "condemnation for libel," but I don't know which is correct. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:44, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree that his name should be stated first instead of the camerman's but we shouldnt say "was" because thats passive voice. I understand the concern that it should say reported rather than just filmed the death - personally I highly doubt this kid is dead. KazakhPol 01:07, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
KazakhPol, thanks for leaving a note on my talk page. I feel the current lead is better, for a number of reasons. We can't talk about his "alleged death." Your first version started with someone else's name, which is not our usual format. We can't say he became "famous" when ... Talk of becoming "famous," of "alleged death" etc is disrespectful. SlimVirgin (talk) 13:12, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Amatulic, your lead isn't acceptable. That the boy didn't die is a tiny minority POV. We can't write the lead section as though it's a mainstream opinion; please read WP:NPOV. If you want to write the lead in accordance with that view, you'll have to produce some reliable published sources showing that it's a majority or significant-minority opinion. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:19, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Is there not a policy that says to avoid passive voice? If there is not then there should be. I am being completely geniuine in my rational here - if you go through my contributions you will see numerous instances in which I change passive voice to past tense for dead people. I would also like to point out, before this really goes any further, that HighInBC (and Jayjg on this specific issue) has yet to comment, and his input would be much appreciated as he has experience in providing third opinions. Additionally, SlimVirgin, I did not violate WP:3RR. KazakhPol 04:36, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
(Reset indent). I don't see anything in this article that alleges anything that is untrue or biased. By now, the controversy about the authenticity of the footage is so widespread that it is no longer a fringe point of view. I think perhaps we can resolve some of the noise on this by reworking the introduction to state that 1) the authenticity of the tape is questioned; and 2) this raises a number of secondary issues about whose bullets killed the boy, the identity of the boy, the behavior of the individuals, etc. This is tricky, since it isn't up to us to determine what is true. Assuming that the boy is dead, it would be offensive to question it; assuming that he isn't, it would be offensive to assert that he is. -- Leifern 21:01, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
KazakhPol, what is it that you feel makes no sense? SlimVirgin (talk) 21:15, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Curious what sources were used for this eulogy, I tried putting in some of the unsourced quotes into Yahoo! and guess what I found? The source is an incredibly reliable website called "AlBalagh" and the page [29] where some Wikipedia editor stole it from is entitled "Who Stole the Peace from the Holy Land?" Guess who "stole the peace." Here's a hint: Juden. KazakhPol
KazakhPol, you wrote: "until everything is sourced, the template remains." Can you say which claims still need sources? SlimVirgin (talk) 19:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I proposed conspiracy theory for the controversy because it's a conspiracy theory. Faat78 16:09, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
You said : "The term "conspiracy theory" is loaded language that implies a point of view that the conclusions have no basis or cannot be taken seriously." No, the term is used for 09/11 on Wikipedia. Faat78 00:43, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
The term is used for other articles because that's how they have been described by reliable sources. Which reliable sources have described the controversy of Durrah as a "conspiracy theory"? Oh, and please don't try to slip you POV in elsewhere, thanks. Jayjg (talk) 18:12, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Does a World Net Daily rehash conveying as gospel truth someone's column in the Los Angeles Times claiming that the incident was a fraud really rise to our standards for external links? In my view, if it does, then our standards need to be raised. - Jmabel | Talk 22:13, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I removed two links from the article, both with specific rationales. User:KazakhPol reverted me, explaining only that he was doing so "for obvious reasons", and without addressing my rationale at all, so I have removed these again, pending discussion.
Without answering me here, KazakhPol has again restored the latter link with the comment "rv whitewashing". I have no idea why he is questioning my motives, and, for what it is worth, I resent it. (For what it's worth, to the best of my memory, I have no significant history with this user, but I presume I do with some of the other contributors to this article, and I think they can vouch for me not being one to whitewash things.) I think this further reversion without discussion amounts to edit-warring. And I still think this link does not meet the standards of WP:EL. Will someone else please step into this situation so that this does not become a personal matter? Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 04:21, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
You donät think it's a bit undue weight to add links that support fringe theories? // Liftarn
As per WP:UNDUE we should not give undue weight to a handfull of far out theories regarding what happened. We should give the story and then have a breief mention about the controversies. Just as the article about Earth deals with the theory of the flat Earth. // Liftarn
Get real! A handfull of propagandaists have claimed it was staged. The rest of the world agrees he was shot dead. Don't let the tail wag the dog. // Liftarn
Interesting that Isarig should bring up the documentary that aired on German televesion, since the director of the documentary in question (Esther Shapira) has stated unequivocally that she believes al-Dura was killed that day. Granted, she believes he most likely killed by Palestinian, not Israeli, gunfire, but nonetheless she does not dispute that he was killed. Neither does James Fallows, or Denis Jeambar, or Daniel Leconte, dispute that al-Dura was killed. I don't believe the article should state as fact that al-Dura was killed by Israeli gunfire; there is room for reasonable doubt on that point. But all the serious journalistic accounts report that he was killed during an exchange of gunfire between IDF forces and Palestinian shooters. The theory that al-Dura was not killed, and the whole incident was staged, should be treated in Wikipedia in the same way as we do 9/11 conspiracy theories, that is, we can have an article that presents them without suggesting that they deserve as much attention as the consensus view. To say that al-Dura was "apparently" killed by gunfire, or put "alleged" in front of the word "shooting" wherever it appears, goes against the accepted WP:NPOV standards, since it suggests that there is serious doubt on the matter by journalists, when in fact there isn't. Sanguinalis 02:21, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
The Atlantic also has a lengthy article about this issue, in which many questions are raised about the authenticity of the incident. This is a really tricky problem - if this boy was actually killed (under any circumstances) it would be horrible to deny it; if he wasn't killed, it would be horrible to perpetuate a falsehood. But this is one of those things where if one aspect is in question, everything could potentially fall apart. "Alleged" does not imply something is true or untrue. We should be able to work this out. -- Leifern 13:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Some reliable sources to consider:
and so on... Looking at the list os references I find some sources that are not very reliable like blogs, personal websites, biased political organisations and so on. // Liftarn
OMG!!! did you just cite both BBC, the Guardian as reliable sources in regards to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict??? i'm beyond being unamused. will cite examples of media bias by those sources a little later.
small sample: the guardian: they found them huddled together.. more than 60 including 34 children .. final death toll of the event was 28 with 16 children but don't let that confuse the guardian who neglect even a retraction. (same with the BBC (4 out of 6 winner of HR bias media source between 2000-2006) and times.. you should really inspect honestreporting.com sometime).
In any event, what would they do other than to reiterate the same as everybody did disregarding factuality issues? see "jenin massacre syndrome". Jaakobou 18:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
So far no one has addressed the article from Time magazine that Liftarn found. So let's have it, Jaakobou, Leifern, Humus Sapiens, and Isarig: Is Time magazine a reliable source, or isn't it? A simple yes or no answer, please. Sanguinalis 15:04, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
The situation is this: We have reliable sources saying he is dead. We have no reliable sources saying he is not dead. Ergo: The article should say he is dead. // Liftarn
offtopic, please don't push guardian articles as "WP:RS" per my link from above (there's more blatant examples)... it would be hard to find an english source on this matter because the guy (head researcher) waited so long until he finally published his piece that no news source gave a rat's ass (pardon the language) about something more than 6 months ago... however, there seems to be allready enough linkage in hebrew to show validity to the researchers POV (he doesn't have cutting proof, apart from the father fumbling saying the boy isn't dead and later saying "he meant that he's not dead because he's with allah" (lol?)... and people in the market calling some kid "al dura" for looking spot on like the boy). Jaakobou 15:35, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Ah, I found http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,403831,00.html that is usable. It says the second investigation "casts serious doubts that the boy was hit by Israel defence forces' fire". // Liftarn