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Alavis claim Ali ibni Abi Talib as god. how can these people be closely related to Islam and, 'all' muslims as oppose to 'many' muslims consider them outside Islam. A person who declares that there is no God except Allah (since it is requirement for a muslim) will surely regard that person (who belives in a human as god) to be not muslim. therefore 'all' muslims as opposed to 'many' fall in that category (with exception, a person who does not regard alavis as non muslim ofcourse would be mentally ill and all these people probably account for 0.00000000000001% of the muslim population). A little use of logic is required here, no offence. By same arguement Ahmedis reject finality of prophethood (essential requirement of being a muslim), therefore they do not come under the banner of islam. ahmedis are unanimously believed to be outside of Islam by both sunnis and shia. Infact, ahmedis themselves call non-ahmedis (including muslims) kafirs. Therefore if both agree upon each other to be different, there should not be any doubt. i would suggest you to read: why muslims consider ahmedis to be non muslims and what ahmedis refer to non ahmedis (muslims) as.
I see Timothy Usher is in a little revert war here. Here is my proposal for the paragraph that keeps getting attacked. As it stands, the original version is POV from the angle of the sects and then it uses an ambiguous phrase of "... regarded by some to be Islamic." Who "some" is or isn't is left to interpretation. A better paragraph reads like this:
Muhammed is also a prophet for the Mustaˤliyya, Nizarī, Alawites, Zikri, and the Ahmadiyya. Although these religions claim to be related to Islam on superficial examination, a deeper analysis on core tenants and teachings shows distinct differences. However, members of these religions claim to be Islamic sects, but are considered non-Muslims by a majority of Muslims following traditional Islam.
If someone wants to go in and explain the distinct differences then do so but since the "sects" are linked, the reader could do the research on their own time. I'd like some discussion before making the change. 24.7.141.159 03:19, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Should we add a picture? (just kidding!)
I'm disturbed by what appears to be a trend by editors on certain articles to force other editors into engaging in debate on discussion pages over every edit. This is not myspace; some of us aren't here for the social life. The talk page is for discussing important issues related to how best to present information in the article. When someone makes an edit you think could be better put, fix it, don't revert and start a debate here. — JEREMY 04:01, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, this is going in the right direction. However we should call them (the 'sects') 'religions' instead of 'traditions' (as it is currently). Isn't that what they would call themselves? If we had "Muhammad is also a prophet for the ...", and then "These beliefs are closely related to..." we would bypass this issue altogether. 80.135.255.49 11:42, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I am having second thoughts here. Having "... several religions other than Islam." (first sentence in the section introduction) makes 'traditions' a synomym for 'religion' in this context. 80.135.255.49 11:55, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
JEREMY, why are scare-quotes better than 'Prophets of Islam' (which is the link anyway)? 80.135.255.49 12:29, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Jesus is called a 'prophet', the opposing view (held by a very large number of people, so relevant) that he is the 'Son of God' is missing. Remedy: use 'Prophets of Islam' instead of 'prophets' (after all, it's linked to WP:Prophets_of_Islam and not to WP:Prophets), to _clearify_ (stress) the point that only Muslims see him this way. Alternative: "...islamic prophets...". Thoughts on that? (I could 'fix it' right away to improve the presentation of information, but will listen to arguments first) 80.135.249.92 14:41, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
This section is still unsourced. I don't really understand what the necessity of this section is. Maybe the title should be changed to "Non-Muslim views on Muhammad"??? In any case statements like "Muslims accept that Muhammad founded Islam as a historical, political and social entity, but object to the notion that he founded the religion" seem highly generalized, subjective, and unencyclopedic. If you want to keep such statements you should at least provide some sources so the reader would know what the context is. Aucaman Talk 19:49, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Jeremy, I killed it again. Your para comes across as pure preaching. It's not necessary to understand Muhammad's biography, which is the main thing here, and the gist of it is surely conveyed by the link to the Prophets of Islam article (which I really need to check out) and the large template on the bottom of the article. Zora 03:23, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Jeremy, this article is about Muhammad, not about Islam. The doctrines of Islam don't need to be explained here except insofar as they relate to Muhammad. Your edit won't stick, because marking the Jesus and Moses hydrants as Muslim territory invites others to visit and reclaim them. We could accept this tug-of-war were the point squarely on-topic, but it's tangential. Practically, your edit only means Aiden, 80.135.249.92 or someone else's version will be up there later.
And I ask, is it considered good style to add a link each and every time a word appears, or to only link in on first mention, and only elsewhere where the case is compelling? I'm inclined to the latter approach. Zora? Timothy Usher 03:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I think I'm beginning to understand some of the concerns here. The point is that, within Islam itself, Muhammad is not the "founder" of Islam, but rather a prophet among many. The only thing that distinguishes him from the other prophets is the claim that he's supposed to be the last prophet in this sequence. This is a ligitimate point of view and probably deserves to be mentioned. I'm not sure if it deserves its own section, especially with a title like "Was Muhammad the founder of Islam?". If you want to keep it I suggest changing the title of the section to "Mohammad within Islam", so that the section can be later expanded. Aucaman Talk 04:33, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
please do not fight :)
Jeremy, please stop removing a reference to who Muhammad is in the eyes of non-Muslims. Muslims do not OWN this article. Having that reference at the top "places" Muhammad for non-Muslims.
Also, your edit combining two sentences just did not work. "Both" is an indeterminate reference. Someone reading it thinks "Both what? Both dates? Both cities?" One can eventually work it out, but that initial moment of uncertainty is unpleasant for the reader. Zora 06:47, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Jeremy, I think you're right that those two sentences are choppy. A rewrite would be fine, as long as it isn't ambiguous.
As for the "who he is" -- in biographical articles, we start off with a quick-and-dirty description of who the biographee is, and why he/she is notable. In the case of religious figures, this can be difficult, because the religion will have developed an elaborate story as to just WHO this person is -- and if it has split into sects, there will be several conflicting stories. So it's easy to give the non-Muslim version (he founded Islam) and hard to give a quick overview of the Muslim version(s). But we have to try -- we can't start the article with a 10K dissertation on Muhammadology. So yes, the Muslim version is going to be mangled by being squashed into a few sentences. But -- we have the rest of the article, or a breakout article, to explain further.
I do not think that it is fair to non-Muslims (who comprise a majority of our readers and users) to remove their view completely, which is what your version does. Zora 07:19, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
My goal in the last edits is to reduce clutter - it was just ugly - and increase clarity. Passive phrases like "He is regarded as so-and-so within/outside the faith", which reduce agents to locations on an abstract plane, are simply awful. And there is no need whatsoever to translate "prophet" or "messenger." Timothy Usher 07:52, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Anonymous editor, you've made the article more difficult to understand. As discussed above, people aren't getting the "sent to guide all mankind" in the way you mean it, and why should this point of doctrine be in the introduction? This really should go.
Why should we say Non-Muslims "generally" consider him the founder of Islam? Are people saying Uthman was the founder or the like? Is there a non-Muslim who nonetheless believes Islam to alwys have been present, as do Muslims? The move of "eventually" is awkward. It was perfectly fine where it was. And why is "defeat" better than "subdue?" Timothy Usher 01:59, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
“What I did that was because he is not a central figure or Islam but a major figure.”
Your point is that God is the central figure and that to say otherwise might be construed as blasphemous, but one be almost be willfully misconstruing the sentence and the context to walk away with that. How many people are really going to read that and think, wikipedia is saying Muhammad is more important than God? The way it reads now suggests a Druze viewpoint or the like. Maybe there’s a way to solve both problems. Any other opinions on this?
“And we don't know if every non-Muslim considers him the founder or not. We can only say generally.”
There might be those (well, most) without an opinion, but that hardly counts, It didn’t say “All non-Muslims...”, but only “Non-Muslims...” which is unspecified as to “all” or “generally”. I’ve never heard such a stance. Have you?
Similarly we might change “Muslims believe that in 610, at about the age of forty...” to “Muslims generally believe...” Perhaps some Muslim believes some aspect of the particulars are wrong? We don’t know.
This road leads to chaos, as anything can be hedged if no good reason is to be required.
I see now why you removed the first “eventually”; it was entirely superfluous. I’m still not sure about the second though.
The reason I prefered “subdue” the tribes of Arabia is because they weren’t just defeated, they were forced into a tributary relationship, against which many of them revolted after Muhammad’s death.
“...the difference between him and the other prophets really should be said.”
Perhaps there is a more natural place for it. Timothy Usher 02:37, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I have a question about the sentence: "The military organization that emerged from this struggle then set out to subdue the other tribes of
Arabia."
I think Muhammad fought with some tribes in Arabia. After conquest of Mecca, I've heard other tribes themselves believed in Muhammad as a central political power. The following verses I think are relevant: 110:1-3. When comes the Help of Allah, and Victory, And thou dost see the people enter Allah's Religion in crowds, Celebrate the praises of thy Lord, and pray for His Forgiveness: For He is Oft-Returning (in Grace and Mercy).
I think Muhammad did not fight with all tribes of Arabia.-- Aminz 02:07, 14 April 2006 (UTC) Zora, can you please let us know your opinion. thx. -- Aminz 02:24, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Anonymous editor,
Why do you prefer “military organization” to “army”?
Why do you say “defeat” instead of “subdue”? As per the discussion above, he did not in fact defeat them all, nor were they merely defeated, but also forced into a tributary relationship, and I’d be rather inclined to say so explicitly if I didn’t know it’d be reverted. He *did* subdue them all.
Zora cited Donner for “most” of Arabia. That is why I changed this. I’ve asked her to add the cite when she has a chance. Have you been following the discussion? You just got another editor blocked for being on the wrong side of an edit war with you, and one of the reasons given to him was that he doesn’t discuss things on the talk page. This won’t happen to you anyhow, but you might at least make a half-hearted show of it. As for "sent to guide mankind", first you said we could remove it from the intro, now you've restored it, but it a manner that doesn't satisfy your originally-stated reason for having it there. Timothy Usher 20:54, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Timothy, can you please explain how Zora's comments support "Muhammad went on to subdue the other tribes of Arabia." They themselves turned to Muhammad. Of course; it was because they saw which way the wind was blowing. This sentence as I can understand says that Muhammad was the initiative. Muhammad of course subdued the pagans of Mecca (peacefully) and those Jews who were joined the enemy party(by war I think). -- Aminz 21:18, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
That looks more like a good faith edit you're rvv'ing there... was that extra 'v' a slip of the keyboard? Netscott 02:32, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I suggest moving some of the historical views on Muhammad to a new article ( Muhammad in history or Muhammad as a historical figure). To avoid a POV fork they can be summarized back into this article. This article should also contain some of the religious (Islamic) views on Muhammad. What do you guys think? Aucaman Talk 10:51, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
What do you mean? Timothy Usher 10:54, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
As it should be. Articles about people are usually biographical articles. We are working on the Islamic views of Muhammad article, which gives us room to discuss the theological/philosophical issues involved. Then both sides will be covered. Zora 11:02, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Donner, The Early Islamic Conquests, Princeton University Press, 1981, p. 85:
The Arabic sources call all these movements collectively the ridda, "apostasy" or "repudiation" (of Islam) and thus at least imply that all were equally acts of blasphemy that deserved military supression by the new state. Recent scholarship has taken exception to the traditional Islamic view and argued that not all the movements can truly be called ridda-- some because they involved no rejection of the religious teachings of Islam (e.g. in al-Bahrayn, Uman, or among the B. Fazara), others because the group in question had never made any agreement to recognize Muhammad as prophet or embrace Islam (e.g., the B. Hanifa).
Donner footnotes the Banu Hanifa assertion to Elias S. Shoufani, Al-Riddah and the Muslim Conquest of Arabia, University of Toronto Press, 1972.
Donner argues that if Abu Bakr had not attempted to put all the nomadic tribes under Muslim control (including tribes in the northern part of the Syro-Arabian steppe) he would have been able to control none of them, since they simply would have been able to move away from the Muslim-controlled areas and organize for a counter-thrust. Zora 21:15, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
The article currently says, “Gabriel told him that God had chosen him as the last prophet to mankind.” Is this actually stated in the Qur’an? Sura 33: 40 would seem a rather ambiguous peg upon which to hang such an important point, in a text which does not shy from clearly and repeatedly stating key principles.
Hadith quote Muhammad himself as saying he is the last prophet, but did Gabriel tell him that? Is there some other Quranic verse involved, such that we can attribute this assertion to Gabriel? I am requesting comment before removing this apparent inaccuracy from the article. Timothy Usher 23:22, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
thx. -- Aminz 07:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Timothy, if you believe it is inaccuracy, Would you please prove to me that
Is it fair? -- Aminz 07:10, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't know. I have no idea about the sentence: "Much has been made over the years that the term "Khatam" meaning seal, or ornament is used in the Qur'an, and not the related "Khatim", which is more commonly used to mean final or last." Khatim, Khatam?? I know Khatm can be very well translated as "the last, the final". We should ask some native arabic speaker. The word Khatim sounds weird to me but I don't know arabic. -- Aminz 07:46, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
The article currently states,
Muhammad and his followers are said to have negotiated an agreement with the other Medinans, a document now known as the Constitution of Medina (date debated), which laid out the terms on which the different factions, specifically the Jews and other " Peoples of the Book" could exist within the new Islamic State. This system would come to typify Muslim relations with their non-believing subjects. In this, the Islamic empire was more tolerant than another great power of the area, the Byzantine empire, which was actively hostile to any religions or sects other than the state-sponsored version of Orthodox Christianity.
This is outrageously distortive passage, considering the fate of the Banu Qurayza, while the Banu-Qaynuqa and Banu al-Nadir were expelled. Timothy Usher 00:02, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I think they're fine. You excised a lot of POV material that crept in. This article is heartbreaking. It is edited so many times, by so many people, that if you just check the diffs, you miss various odd edits. But complete reading takes some time, even for speed readers like me. I wish it could be permanently semi-protected -- that might help a little. Zora 05:53, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I removed the section for the following reasons:
— Aiden 16:49, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
The refs in this article are not associated with the text. Anyone know their history? Is there any way we can convert them to standard refs (ie. associate them with a particular quote in the text)? Floating unattached the way they are, they're not a lot of use to anyone but the serious student willing to go and read the lot. — JEREMY 10:43, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
"...fulfilling part of one of Muhammad’s prophecies (30:4)."
What on earth are you guys doing? This kind of thing has no place here. Timothy Usher 11:01, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, I aimed to prove that the mentioning rejoicing is important. I have heard that (some?) Muslims consider this to be fulfilling part of one of Muhammad’s prophecy. -- Aminz 11:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
You changed "...[Muslims] believe him..." to the passive "...believed by Muslims..." That's warped. Timothy Usher 11:13, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Friends, I am going to sleep. Take care of the article -- Aminz 11:16, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Would you please explain why you've made these changes? Perhaps there are very good reasons. I am only curious as to what they are. Timothy Usher 12:30, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I removed the claim that the Battle of Badr fulfilled a prophecy. That is irretrievably POV. I also changed the sentence re the Banu Qaynuqa back to "Muslims accused" rather than the "allegedly". The "allegedly" removes the onus from the Muslims and leaves the accusation floating without an accuser. The Muslims moved into an area as refugees and ended by expelling or killing some of the biggest groups there and taking their land and property (and in one case, their wives and children as slaves). I'm not going to put it that way in the article, but it does look bad from a modern perspective, and I don't think the unsavory aspects should be covered up. (Not that I want them exaggerated, either -- 7th century politics was grim, and these were not the grimmest examples.)
As for "most of the rest of the Medinans converted" -- we've had that in there forever, but Watt points out that the Arabic sources make that claim for several moments in Medinan history -- a claim that is then followed by an account of a tussle with yet another tribe. A tussle which would not have happened if "most Medinans" had converted. Watt doesn't trust these claims and after reading him, I don't either. I modified that Muhammad and his followers becoming the dominant force in Medina, which I think could be defended. Zora 19:45, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Replacing
"Following this victory, the victors expelled a local Jewish clan, the Banu Qainuqa, whom they accused of breaking a treaty and risking the security of the city state. Muhammad and his followers were now a dominant force in the oasis."
To less persuasive version:
"Following this victory, the victors expelled a local Jewish clan, the Banu Qainuqa, whom they believed to have broken a treaty and risked the security of the city state."
Any objection?-- Aminz 21:23, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Someone inserted into the article "According to Ibn Ishaq, after the Banu Qurayza were defeated, all the adult men were beheaded by the order of Saad ibn Muadh, an arbiter accepted by the Banu Qurayza..." That Saad ibn Muadh was accepted by Banu Qurayza is plain wrong. In fact, Ibn Hisham's text says: "...when the Aws pleaded with [Muhammad], he said, 'Would you be satisfied, o People of Aws, if one of your own men were to pass the judgement upon them?' 'Certainly,' they replied. The Apostle of Allah... said, 'Then it shall be left to Saad ibn Muadh'." I've changed "accepted by the Banu Qurayza" to "appointed by Muhammad". Pecher Talk 22:43, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I think I wrote that in the Banu Qurayza article and I think I was wrong. I pulled out my trusty copy of Ibn Ishaq, as translated by Guillaume, and it says that the Quraysh "submitted to the apostle's judgement" p. 463 and that the faction known as Aus or Aws demanded that one of their own be allowed to give judgement, and Muhammad agreed and appointed Sa'd, who was from Aws. Sa'd demanded that the Muslims accept his judgement before he gave it, they agreed, and then he demanded death. So the Banu Qurayza only "submitted themselves", which I think means simply surrender, and it was the Aws who stood up for them and demanded someone they thought would be a lenient judge. So it needs to be fixed here and in the Banu Qurayza article.
Importance of quotes! Verifiability! You should never have let me get away with that :) Zora 01:02, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Jeremy, I disagree with retaining the translations of "prophet" and "messenger". Last we heard from Zora, she didn't seem too favorable. Consider also the link to "Vocabulary of Islam" as discussed, where the reader will find all this and more. Rather than change it unilaterally, I'd like to see what other editors think. Why do they add to the article, and why are they important? Timothy Usher 05:02, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I've re-added the founder section, as follows:
Aiden seems to think we need the whole, original three paragraph section or nothing. I can't see his point, but believe at least something is necessary in order to explain what might at first glance appear an odd idea (ie. that Muhammad didn't found Islam). Perhaps others might comment. — JEREMY 05:04, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to advocate the return of "Non-Muslims generally consider him the founder of Islam." which covers the problem of Islamic offshoots like the Ahmadi and the Bahá'í. — JEREMY 06:01, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Jeremy, that’s your fourth revert in nineteen hours: [4], [5], [6], [7]
Similarly with the translations. Please self-revert. Timothy Usher 06:43, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I have not followed what is going on, but the issue seems too minor to me. I can not see any reason for having a revert war over it. It is even less significant than using the words "accused" and "believed". I personally prefer to have the "Muslim Founder" part. Jeremy, do you want to get blocked because of these very very minor issue? -- Aminz 07:00, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Jermy, Does the two versions differ much that we need to discuss it or even get into revert war for them? Having the founder section is another story but "Arabic translation" issue is negligible. I personally think that the Arabic translations only makes the article look ugly (except I think the Arabic form of "khatamo an nabiyin" is better to be included since I am not sure if Seal of the prophet is the exact equivalent of the Arabic expression). Why don't we get rid of arabic translations? -- Aminz 10:15, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
it is not clear to me what mohammed believed his own faith to be, before or after becoming a prophet. what was the religion he was brought up in, and did he refer to himself as a "muslim" or by another term? Aaronbrick 02:04, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
There is indeed a great deal of controvosy about the religion of Muhammad. There are some reports however, that state muhammad was not exactly a follower of a religion before receiving revelations, but that he refrained from wrong doing, he did not drink alcohol, did not commit adultry, did not speak bad about others etc.-- 81.178.61.46 17:33, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
During his childhood Muhammad, was known to be a very helpful and a honest person to his neighbours, thus the meccans called him with the name "Al-Ameen" the trustworthy one, or the honest one.
You removed my additions saying "what exactly does the reference say", do you have any idea what does the rest of the references say about prophet Muhammed? Have you read all the references? Why are you only questioning the reference when it talks good about him? why aren't you questioning the other references. All I can say is if each user keeps removing things from the article asking "what exactly the reference says" there wont be an article left for anyone to read. I advice you to think calm and collectively whether what you are doing is the correct thing, because earlier when you removed the same content you said "Hagiography as per Zora" now you are giving a totally different reason. I dont quite understand your intentions here..Is it to keep away everything good about prophet out of the article. Sorry for not assuming good faith I've lost faith with your second removal with a different reason than the first. «₪Mÿš†íc₪» 10:54, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Getting back to "During his childhood Muhammad, was known to be a very helpful and a honest person to his neighbors, thus the meccans called him with the name "Al-Ameen" the trustworthy one, or the honest one."
I believe being honest can be easily defended(based on the Islamic sources) since 1. I have heard that several stories which can lead one to such a conclusion (e.g. a story(in my words): The way Muhammad first started preaching was that he told people if I tell you that enemy's soldiers are behind this mountain will you believe me? They said yes, we will believe you, we have trust in you. Then Muhammad said that i have become a prophet ...."
2. Being trustworthy(title of Al-Amin) without being honest seems impossible to me.
Regarding being "very helpful", I think it is mentioned in the Islamic sources that Muhammad, when he was young, for example joined(formed?) a community of young people established with the purpose of helping others. I have vague memories of these stories.
Timothy, I think writing all these stories in the article is unneccessary.-- Aminz 10:29, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Timothy, Your questions are good ones and their answers will help improving the article. Could you please specify your position? Do you accept the Islamic sources of biography of Muhammad?
I don't think the statement that the title Al-Amin was given to Muhammad before his claim of prophethood could be disputed. There are several traditions supporting it(It is said that Khadija, his wife, was touched by Muhammad's honesty and trustworthyness.) -- Aminz 10:50, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Zora, but this sentence belongs to the section "His life according to Islamic traditions". I agree with Mystic. -- Aminz 19:13, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Timothy, this sentence is already written in the section "His life according to Islamic traditions". Everything in this section is supposed to be Islamic traditions. I am really confused. Of course the Islamic traditions should say (and we expect to say) "During his childhood Muhammad, was known to be a very helpful and a honest person to his neighbors, thus the meccans called him with the name "Al-Ameen" the trustworthy one, or the honest one." -- Aminz 21:52, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Tomothy, I think you should let Muslims to write their own POV. If you can find a Muslims who disputes the above sentence, then we can enter into more details. I think the above sentence is even a mild Muslim POV. Please note the Muslim editor's feedback to your edits. This by itself is an evidence. -- Aminz 22:01, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Or maybe we can add "According to the Islamic sources" before the sentence though this is redundant since the whole section is according to the Islamic sources. But I think this is at least better than adding skeptics' point of view in the section which is supposed be the Bio according to the Islamic sources. -- Aminz 23:06, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
What if there are many related stories? Should we say:"according to Tim, Bob is nice?", "according to Charls, Bob is nice?" "according to Alice, Bob is nice?" "according to Wendy, Bob is nice?" ... Please note that even Muhammad was reminding people of his reputation hoping that people may believe in his message. Were this controversial among Muslims, I would have agreed with you. Were this not wellknown among Muslims, I would have agreed with you. There is no report, as far as I am aware, that Muhammad has ever lied. -- Aminz 23:31, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I have heard many stories but don't know how the original sources relate them or where they are related. -- Aminz 23:06, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
It says: 'Muhammad was KNOWN TO BE . . . ' so it's just talking 'bout the prophet (PBUH)'s reputation. And the holy Quran even states that he was an honest person that never lied. So we've got that to back it up.
Zora, why did you remove my comment? -- Aminz 00:28, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Timothy. Zora, regarding your suggestion, you are more experienced than me.
For example? (Would you please let me know the Qur'anic ones first, then the Hadiths that are both accepted by Shia and Sunni and then bukhari hadiths). Thanks -- Aminz 00:41, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't know how this constitutes a lie. By the same standard, all other verses that particularly increase Muhammad's obligations (such as the obligation to stay awake and pray around half of every night or the obligation to preach the message while he was persecuted) are also considered lie (because Muhammad or Gabriel have changed their mind). I need to go now but will back in an hour. I will write more. --
Aminz
00:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I am back! First of all, I should say I have not done any research about this issue and all I want to say are based on what I’ve heard here and there and my personal thoughts.
1. I believe Islam has a more natural view to sex than some other religions such as Christianity. Sex is not considered as a taboo. It is not discouraged (Muslim never have had the practices of abstaining from sex, marrying etc.) Islam does not view sex as something bad or something that should be suppressed but only something that should be controlled. Islam unlike Christianity does not view sex as something (somehow sinful?) which should be only done for the purpose of making children. It might be interesting to you that Koran mentions the love between husband and wife as a sign of God but does not mention the love between mother and child as a sign of God. Interesting, not? Note that Muhammad had many wives but Jesus didn’t marry. At least in the sense of view on “sex”, I like Islam, and particularly shi’aism.
2. Assuming Muhammad was God’s prophet, which in this case has bear many difficulties (as is reflected in Qur’an e.g. 20:2 “We have not sent down the Qur'an to thee to be (an occasion) for thy distress…”, “Thou wouldst only, perchance, fret thyself to death, following after them, in grief, if they believe not in this Message.” 18:6) I don’t see it unreasonable that God wants to relax some of Muhammad’s obligations. I can not agree that this point will prove that Muhammad was a liar.
3. I don’t see anything bad with Muhammad’s desire to women. He was a human after all. I personally have desire to women and don’t consider it bad. I have some personal experiences which makes me to have a different feeling. Let me tell you how I, as a Muslim, felt after coming to US. I came from Iran where women are covering their beauties (they do NOT wear burqa). It was a big change for me! I was really bothered by the way these pretty American girls were dressing. I was feeling very sinful whenever I had a bad look to any girl. A very covered girl, in your standards, was like a very sexy dressed girl in my standards. In Islam, even having a lusty look to a woman is seen very sinful; not speaking of how sinful other things such as self satisfaction are. The only way to avoid sinning in Islam is marriage. Marriage is very encouraged. I have sinned a lot and somehow have lost my sensibility to sinning. I am going to hell anyway, but I can assume God didn’t want Muhammad to be punished. As I can understand from the story of Zaid, Zaid’s wife may have appeared beautiful to Muhammad’s eyes. I believe God relaxed Muhammad’s obligations to help him avoid sinning and have the feeling of being guilty. It is really hard to bear the burden of sexual related sins. It comes to mind over and over again and bothers the person.
In conclusion, I can not agree with Timothy that this commandment constitutes a lie. -- Aminz 03:22, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Seriously. This article isn't entirely fact. What I mean by that is that this article is supposed to be saying what the Holy Quran said about Muhammad (PBUH) and what Muslims think. Because what the Quran said about Muhammad (PBUH) is the truth. Duh. Timothy Usher, I seriously don't get why we're fighting over this, because the article is fine except for that stupid picture and the numerous edits that are WRONG.
First, Arsath, you've reverted thrice today, I only twice. So it's not appropriate to speak of me "fighting [your] edits" (nor am I the only one).
It seems you're simply ignoring what I write here. I've been very specific:
I've asked you these things again and again in the discussion above, and you've not answered one. Timothy Usher 18:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
IT IS MUSLIM POV THAT MUHAMMAD "WAS AN HONEST AND HELPFUL CHILD". This is clear since all the Muslim editors here testify to it. This is exactly the definition of Muslim POV and that sentence is written in the Muslim POV section. It is like the Christian POV that Jesus was mild. Can anybody please explain to me that when the pov tag is added to the article, what it is supposed to mean? That there are Muslims who do not believe Muhammad was honest and helpful?!!! -- Aminz 02:08, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry if I have misunderstood the discussion here.
Being helpful:
1. "The real point seems to be, he helped repair the Kaaba." to my mind is not directly relevant to Muhammad being helpful. He only helped the dispute to be resolved! One example is the story that: When he was young, he joined(formed?)a community that was dedicated to helping others(which I guess should include old people, women and orphans). At least please note that how many times Qur'an uses the word "zakat" (i.e. charity). Too many times! You can see the phrase"Those who pray and pay charity" is repeated over and over everywhere in Qur'an. This at least proves how the mind of Muhammad was familiar with this. If you assume Muhammad wrote the Qur'an then this repetition proves something. Doesn't it? By the way, according to the Islamic sources, paying Zakat only includes but is not restricted to charity. Teaching others is the Zakat of knowledge. Helping others, I believe, is the Zakat of being healthy and wealthy and so on.
Being trustworthy and honest:
2. He was given the title "Al-Amin" which means trustworthy one or honest one. This title by itself proves he was known for his trustworthyness.
-- Aminz 02:39, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
1a) Same question as to Arsath: please substantiate this story. What community? According to what source?
1b) The frequency of his exhorting others to charity in the Qur'an proves nothing about his reputation as a child.
2) When was he given this title? Unless you can show he was given it as a child, it's again irrelevant.
Please, engage the three questions I posed to Arsath instead of just re-asserting yourself. Timothy Usher 02:50, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I prepared a draft of a version that puts commonly-accepted Muslim traditions not accepted by Western scholars like Watt into a separate section. Rather than put it up directly, I'm putting it up at Talk:Muhammad/temp for comment. Hold on while I set up the link and paste the text. Zora 21:05, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
"Muhammad was known to be a very trustworthy and honest person, thus the meccans called him with the name "Al-Amin" the trustworthy one or the honest one. [1] [2]"
It is referenced and is a Muslim POV. Any objection?-- Aminz 10:02, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Zora. I agree it is Muslim POV. It is a famous Muslim POV and I believe it should be mentioned in the article (either in the third section or somewhere else)
"Muslims believe that Muhammad was greatly respected by his Meccan relatives and neighbors, so much so that they called him with the title "Al-Amin" which means the trustworthy one or the honest one."
How is this one? -- Aminz 20:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I was off delivering an edited manuscript. Whew! "Called him with the title" is not correct English. "Gave him the title" or "called him", but not both. It's OK, English is your second -- or perhaps third -- language. Zora 02:21, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I excerpt from Ibn Ishaq (among the bios links of the article) [11]:
Al-Amin:
“The Apostle of Allah grew - Allah protecting, keeping and guarding him from the abominations of idolatry, having predestined him to become His apostle and the recipient of His grace - till he became the most excellent man of his people, the most agreeable in behaviour, the most noble in descent, the finest in neighbourly feeling, the greatest in meekness, and the most truthful in utterance; the greatest in fidelity, the furthest from wickedness and from acts which pollute; so exalted and noble that he was called among his people ‘the faithful’, because of the good qualities Allah had bestowed upon him.”
So, Ibn-Ishaq suggests that Muhammad was a Hanif, that he was overall a great guy, and was known as Al-Amin, but doesn't say how he knows this, or substantiate anything. I think this must be the ultimate source.
Rebuilding the Kaaba:
“The groups of the Quraysh now collected stones for the rebuilding, each group gathering seperately, and they built until they reached the spot for the ruku [the sacred stone]. Then all the people quarrelled, because each group wished the honour of lifting the stone into place; so bitter were the quarrels that the groups made alliances and prepared to fight. One group produce a dish filled with blood and entered into a covenant unto death with another group by dipping their hands into the dish - they were therefore called blood-lickers. The situation remained thus for four or five nights; then the Quraysh assembled in the mosque to consult and reach a decision, and the oldest man among them said at last, 'Why not let he who next enters through the door of this mosque be the arbiter in this quarrel, and let him decide it?' They agreed, and the first man who entered was the apostle of Allah. And they said, 'This is the faithful one! We agree that he shall judge.' When he came near they told him of the problem and he said, 'Bring me a cloak'. When they had brought one, he placed the ruku [black stone] in it with his own hands, saying, 'Let every group take hold of a part of the cloak.' Then all of them lifted it together, and when they reached the spot, the apostle placed it in position with his own hands, and the building was continued over it.”
This is much more significant, I believe, than the nickname, because he's organizing the placement of the Black Stone on the Kaaba. There are many stories here which could be included in the article. However, they should be, as Zora suggests, in their own section. Timothy Usher 03:22, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Just one of a large number of anecdotes, picked more or less at random, which could be included:
"On his arrival in Syria the apostle of Allah alighted in the shade of a tree near the hermitage of a monk, who approached Maysara and asked, ‘Who is this man under the tree?’ Maysara replied, ‘This man is one of the Quraysh from the sacred city.’ And the monk said, ‘Under this tree no one ever alighted except a prophet.’"
becomes
"Muslims believe that, when Muhammad arrived in Syria, a monk noticed him sitting under a particular tree beneath which only prophets had sat before." [CITE].
It's just as well-documented as "Al-Amin", and just as important: if Muhammad's honestly/faithfulness means he'd never lie about the Qur'an, so does his sitting beneath the prophet-tree mean he is destined to be a prophet. Timothy Usher 06:03, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Timothy, your argument is ironic. Had you read Qur'an once, you would have realized its insistence on showing Muhammad's sincerity and honesty and you have felt the context in which the arguments are presented. I will get into the story you mentioned but I don't believe the famous title of "Al-Amin" an that story are comparable.
I have heard a story in which the monk is Buhayra. There was no mention of "prophet tree" there. The story as I have heard is as following: The monk was expecting a prophet to rise from arabia (the land of kedar based on some prophecies). Muhammad at that time was a child. It was noon and the weather was hot. Buhayra saw a cloud shaded on Muhammad. He came to Muhammad and asked him some questions and found the signs of prophet hood in him. He then told AbuTaleb about the future of Muhammad. -- Aminz 06:37, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I think we should list all of the versions of this story in the article. Because it usually has the same point but is slightly changed---stories, i mean.
Could you please explain why my edit was reverted? thx. -- Aminz 04:06, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
That Abdulrahman link was some pretty sneaky vandalism. Thanks, Aminz. Timothy Usher 06:44, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
User:OrphanBot has removed a useful image from the page. I've left {{test2a-n|Muhammad}} on both bot and botmaster discussion pages. OrphanBot should join the talk page like the rest of us. Timothy Usher 11:27, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Isn't it forbidden to build structures above graves in Islam?
Technically Islam teaches muslim to restrain from building any grave stones, monuments etc. on top of, or around graves, because it may encourage some muslims to start praying at the grave with these grave stones, which is idolatry, and idolatry is shirk, which it is unanimously agreed to be the biggest sin a muslim can commit. Aadamh 15:21, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
ok zora, i will source what i have said. And not "all" muslims believe in the same thing. I should of specified, I was refering to sunni Muslims. -- 81.178.61.46 14:46, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I quote from the book 'Heavenly Ornaments- A Classical Manual of Islamic Sacred Law' by 'Ashraf Ali Thanwi' ( a muslim scholar) "It is haraam to construct a dome over the grave for the purpose of decoration. If this is done in order to strengthen the grave, then it will be mukruh. It is permissable to write something on the grave of the deceased as a means of remembrance". Haraam means: forbidden and Makruh means: disliked. -- Aadamh 21:27, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
So what gives you the right to say that Islam as a religion, allows this? Apart from saying muslims do this, because of course there are muslims that do not adhere to the teachings of islam.-- 81.178.61.46 17:25, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
And what can you say that is accepted by all muslims, if there are different sects. Evidence should be taken from the Qur'an and sunnah, not what some muslims do.
I put up a temp version and the other editors said "Oh that's nice" and ignored it. I suppose the only way I'm going to get any feedback is by putting it up as the regular version. Note that there is now a section where Muslim stories can be put. Not all of them are there. I'd call them folklore. Western-educated Muslims would probably call them folklore. As Aminz points out, millions of Muslims believe that they are literally true. More stories can be added. Would it be possible to add the ones that both Sunni and Shi'a accept, rather than immediately jumping into polemics? Zora 23:31, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I should make it clear, because it wasn't clear before now: the section "based on Islamic traditions" was originally intended (by me, who wrote it) as reflecting the work of scholars like Watt who accept much of the Islamic tradition. BUT, they don't accept it all. Muslim editors wanted to add stuff that academic editors wouldn't accept. We have to make it clear that academics who write about Muhammad take a resolutely secular, non-supernatural POV, and they don't accept a lot of stories that Muslims tell about Muhammad. That's why we had the fights about "Al-Amin" - the Muslim editors thought that the long section was "theirs" and the non-Muslim editors didn't agree. Now we've got the POVs sorted out. Zora 00:00, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
AE, as the section on sources says, there are two academic schools of thought, the minimalists and the traditionalists. Both are represented here. The first school is Wansborough, Crone, Cook, Hinds, Berkey, etc., though they are easing up as they get older and accepting more :) The second school would be Watt, Madelung, Donner, and other academics who are willing to work with the Islamic traditions. It's a fairly small pool of scholars and they tend to disagree on matters arcane enough that they aren't even covered here. If we have to add lots of caveats and references, we can do breakout articles on the academic tradtions. Zora 00:28, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
No, because the minimalists throw out 90% of what the traditionalists accept. After a century of academic fussing over minor edits to the Muslim traditons, Wansborough and his students arrived on the scene and declared it was all junk. If you can get hold of a copy of Hagarism, have a read. (It's out of print, and rare. I haven't been able to afford a copy -- but I'm old enough to remember the fuss when it came out. The later Crone is a little bit less of an iconoclast.) Zora 00:36, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
The section title "His life according to Islamic traditions accepted by non-Muslim scholars" is misleading and, on balance, factually wrong. It may have been intended to indicate that the narrative cannot be disproved by methods of historical science because (1) no other sources are available, (2) it is not self-contradictory, and (3) supernatural claims are not a subject of historical science anyway. However, the word "accept" doesn't convey that to the average reader, because "accept" is not the correct word for that.
"To accept" means to receive with consent or approval, to admit or to agree to. To claim that the given narrative is in this way "accepted" by (a majority of) non-muslim scholars is not true, if only because such acceptance would be unscholarly (unscientific) considering the almost complete absence of contemporay and corroborated sources, archeological evidence and such. For that alone, based on scientific principle, the traditional narrative can be, and must be, disputed (like those of other religions are). Historians that "accept" most of the narrative would not be able to make a convincing scientific case for that view by todays standards.
That is why the section was originally called "His life according to Islamic traditions". It is only those traditions that fully "accept" what is narrated here. If nobody comes up with a better idea, the section title should be reverted to the former version. By the same argument, the section "Muslim traditions not accepted by non-Muslim academics" should at least be renamed so as not to convey implicitly that the narrative of the "His life ..." section is, in contrast, "accepted" by academics and therefore "historically true" (considering that for laymen, using 'academic' always implies scientific truth). -- 80.135.226.107 20:24, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Does putting the info into italicized subtitles help? Zora 01:45, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Expounding who Muslims think Muhammad IS, in a theological sense, is not really part of Muhammad's biography. It's part of the Islamic conceptions of Muhammad article -- I forget the exact name.
Furthermore, it's stating as fact something that is not true. All Muslims NOW say that Muhammad is the universal prophet, but this was not the case in the first century or so of Islam. Suleiman Bashear's book Arabs and Others explores this in detail. He argues that there were two currents of thought in the Muslim community up until the Abbasid revolution: Islam for everyone and Islam for the Arabs. Those who thought Islam was for the Arabs thought that Muhammad was the prophet for the Arabs. In order to convert, non-Arabs had to be adopted into an Arab tribe.
This is the kind of complicated matter that should be discussed in the "Muhammadology" article I mentioned above. Putting it in one sentence in the biography is glossing over history, and controversy, AND it's preaching. It's not necessary. The article has done fine without it for years. Zora 15:18, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Zora, what I wrote has direct Qur'anic support. Moreover, not in one place but in several places for the case of Muhammad (for the case of Jesus I remember once). If you would like, I can say Qur'an says that and add the references but I think that was fine. I have no idea about your argument but it seems strange since it was after the death of Muhammad that the Islamic territory was expanded (and Persians for example became Muslims; they never became Arabs (if you tell a Persian that he has become Arab, he/she will be offended ;) ). Are you sure that the other thought was supported by a significant group of people? Was it global or just appeared at a particular period of time? After we are done with this argument, if I was right, I'll try to respond to your other arguments. Thanks -- Aminz 20:07, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
We can write Qur'an says so rather than Muslims say so. -- Aminz 21:18, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Aminz, there are verses in the Qur'an that can be interpreted both ways. WP has no authority to declare what the Qur'an means. As to the problems converting non-Arabs, yes, it's true. There's no academic controversy about it. It's all there in Tabari, in Baladhuri, in other chronicles. There are instances in which entire villages wanted to convert, to escape the jizya, and were refused. This was said to be one of the reasons that the Umayyads fell; they could only count on Arab support (and only the Syrian Arabs) whereas the Abbasids had the Persians behind them. (Of course, that part is debateable.) Zora 05:14, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Zora, can you please show me just one verse that can be interpreted as "Every one who wants to become a Muslim should become an Arab" or "Muhammad was sent only to Arabs". I can show you several verses that unambiguously states that Muhammad's message was for all mankind. Muhammad sent letters to Sasanid and Roman empires inviting them to Islam. "Salman The Persian" was a famous companion of Muhammad and yet was not an Arab. Please just show me one verse that can be intepreted in a way that supports "there are verses in the Qur'an that can be interpreted both ways". (I searched the Qur'an the word "arab" or "arabic" only appears 11 times in Qur'an and I checked all these verses. But maybe I've missed the one you mean). Zora, I think yes there are tough, problematic and controversial issues in Qur'an but this is not one of them. -- Aminz 10:27, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Zora, how can muhammad be sent to only th arabs? If you research the Quran and hadith properly then it is clearly explained that muhammad was a prophet for ALL people, any race, not just the arabs. -- 81.178.61.46 18:05, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Bilal, I don't think it's accurate to say that Muslims believe that Jibril asked, rather than commanded, Muhammad. Isn't the first word of revelations supposed to be, "Recite!"? As for the sentence re head pain -- your edit made it ungrammatical but it wasn't such a great sentence before you worked on it. I realized that we didn't need it, so junked it. So I think you had a valid perception there, that it was less than optimal sentence. Zora 05:17, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, Zora, you're right -- Aadamh 22:56, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Chistofishman writes: Christians in general view Muhammad as a false prophet who derived much of his teachings from the heresey of Arianism. Um, I don't think "Christians in general" have ever heard of Arianism, so I added {Citation needed}. — johndburger 20:14, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Now as I consider the topic in more specific you could get into a discussion about "Christians in general"
Certainly there are Christian groups that are also Aryanist but not Mohammedans. For instance the Mormons and Jehovah witnesses as well as I believe some of the Egyptian copic churches. But this affects weather or not Christians consider Aryanism heresy or not and does not represent a majority of Christians.
The debate is more complicated by the fact that not believing Christ to be uncreated God excludes you from the definition of Christian in the view of: Catholics (Russian, eastern and roman). Lutherans, Baptists , Episcopalians, Anglicans ect. So the minority group may not geven be Christians depending on your definition of the term.
If you want to amend the statement with "Christians in general, but not all" I guess that might help.
do you want one or all of the citations?
-- chistofishman 20:50, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I think you misunderstand—I'm not objecting to "view Muhammad as a false prophet", I'm objecting to the rest of it. Do you really mean to say that the majority of Christians know anything about Arianism? That's what your sentence indicates. I would be surprised if more than a few percent have even heard of it. If you disagree, you definitely need a citation about the Arianism part, not necessarily the false prophet part. If you didn't mean to say that, then I'd suggest just eliding the text to "Christians in general view Muhammad as a false prophet."
If in fact you meant to talk about the doctrine of most Christian sects, that's very different from what "most Christians view". — johndburger 00:08, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
By default Christians view Muhammad as a false prophet, but I would not say they believe his teachings were inspired by Arianism. — Aiden 18:26, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I believe the proper term to describe that branch of Christian Philosophy. Especially at the time of Muhammad is Arianism.
Which is further supported by the idea that Islam spread very quickly in the area where Arianism was popular.
I don't claim that there are all that many people who are familiar with the formal term. I would make the claim that anyone who is familiar with the meaning of the term Arianism can see very easily that as a category of Christian philosophy that is the one which Islam most directly resembles.
I would not make the claim that the Mormons or the Jehovah’s witnesses derived any of there philosophy directly from the teachings of the historical Arius. However because they both hold that Christ is not God the fit the term as it is most commonly used by Christian scholars and theologians. Not withstanding the fact many Christians may not be familiar with the term most of them would recognize the accuracy of the classification.
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Arianism/id/68172
Can someone find a better term that categorizes Islam within the context of the Christian view on theology? That is what I'm looking for. Is there a better term? -- chistofishman 16:17, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm upset by Natalina's edits -- she declared the organization of the article invalid, then changed the section headers. I don't like her prose and I don't like the emphasis on "military organization". Editing when I'm angry is usually a mistake, so I'm just calling attention to this. I hope the other editors agree with me. Zora 03:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
so? ur angry....
An anon added material to the sources section saying that the hadith had been written down from the start and that they are completely reliable. No Western academic scholars believe this, and even Muslim scholars recognize that the hadith are recorded oral traditions and that they are sometimes contradictory and unreliable. Much of the work of the ulema consists of judging hadith as strong or weak, reliable or unreliable. Different traditions, and even different scholars, weigh the hadith differently.
Another editor had made some changes to the section re Muhammad's marriage to Khadijah. I didn't like the edits but rather than using the old version, I rewrote. Perhap that is more acceptable? Zora 09:22, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
This article discreetly promotes islam. That is NPOV. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Shaitan Al Mahdi ( talk • contribs) 01:41, 26 May 2006.
At some point, someone wrote that Muhammad was poisoned, and then started embroidering on that. I removed all of that. It is not accepted by academics, or by the earliest Muslim authorities -- that is generally believed to be a later anti-Jewish myth. Zora 02:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
DLH and Pecher worked to turn the article into an indictment of Muhammad and Islam. I'm pressed for time and too upset to edit carefully, but ... I don't think that this was wise. Zora 19:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I completely rewrote the marriages section, trying to keep it as neutral as I could. I also removed the legacy section. If the legacy section is going to become an occasion of debate about the spread of Islam, I think we're better off without it. There are other articles where this is discussed. A biography isn't the right place. Zora 19:25, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Now Pecher and Timothy are adding extra references to "prove" that Muhammad was a child abuser. Someone is going to start adding all the refs that "disprove" it and then you'll end up recreating the whole dang controversy section in the Aisha article on the Muhammad page. Does this help the encyclopedia? NO. It's all about propagandizing for your POV at the expense of the project as a whole. Zora 03:22, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Anonymous editor, I have a great reading recommendation for you. It's a collection of sayings, called Hadith, compiled by Bukhari and others, and is central to a major world religion called Islam. Conveniently, there are links to it in a section of this very article which you've just moved. I know you're busy, but if you can take a few moments to actually read the passages at issue, instead of just moving them, they say clearly that Aisha was six upon marriage, not nine. She was nine when Muhammad first had sex with her. No one is saying she was nine when they were married. Your negligent edit mischaracterizes the cited sources. Timothy Usher 05:54, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Timothy and Pecher, please READ the Aisha article, and stop refusing to admit that there's a dispute. If we're arguing, there IS a dispute. Zora 09:11, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Ah, I see where this is going off the tracks. There's a dispute if there are two or more NOTABLE positions on a topic. Notable doesn't mean that academics support it. It just means that there's a sufficiently large number of people who believe it, and that this belief can be demonstrated with references. We've got references from several un-connected websites, plus a book -- that's notable, that's widespread. I have written articles where I have described positions that I regard as completely bogus, supported by NO academics, because they're held by a sufficient number of people. That's playing fair. Please play fair. Zora 09:48, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Timothy, I didn't remove your edit. I think there was an edit conflict and you didn't notice. As for Aisha's age, I don't think that the "nine-year-old" theory is an academically accepted fact. I've been pawing through my bios of Muhammad -- Watt and Rodinson say that Aisha was YOUNG, but they don't give an exact age. Since Watt tends to dismiss something by not commenting on it, rather than by attacking it directly, I think that's an indication that he prefers the sira over the hadith. In fact, he says as much in the introduction to his two volume bio of Muhammad -- he uses Tabari, Ibn Ishaq, Ibn Sa'd, and Waqidi rather than hadith. All the sites screaming "Muhammad the pedophile" are non-academic sites themselves, and of very dubious quality. Any mud you throw at the "she was older" sites sticks to the "she was a poor abused child" sites too. Zora 10:35, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
If I can get a copy of the Encyclopedia of Islam, I'll check it out.
Pecher, you're trying to use WP to declare your side of the argument correct. It's hard not to get sucked into the fray, BUT ... I think we have enough references, from enough people, enough websites, to suggest that some Muslims are questioning those hadith, and that the arguments that they put forth should be presented too. I can't give you a cite from the Spellberg book right now (I discovered it only recently, through the Gertrude Bell Jar site) but I've ordered it and I'll be able to give cites in a few weeks. There is a dispute, and you are being unfair in unilaterally trying to rule the dispute out of existence. You are declaring a viewpoint "non-notable" because you don't like what it says, and so that you can present your viewpoint as the TRUTH.
The problem with trying to use academic sources is that the academics haven't paid much attention to the question. Attacks on Muhammad as a child-molester come from outside the academic community (as is evident from the sites given in Aisha) and the responses have too. Academics don't get whuffie from getting involved with these disputes, so they stay away. That's why I want to see the material you cited re Watt's acceptance of the tradition, rather than taking your word for it. Zora 21:12, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Considering the frequent removal of almost all materials even moderately critical of Muhammad from this biography, recommend adding a subheading and disclaimer.
==Criticism==
“Any criticism of Muhammad’s character or actions is highly explosive and rarely tolerated, often leading to a fatwa and murder. Seek such critiques elsewhere. See: Al-Nader, Ocba, Asthma bint Marwan, Abu Afak, Banu Qurayza, Rushdie.”
Recommend adding breakout pages for these and a breakout bibliography providing references to such critiques. -- DLH 21:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
1)Please address the substance of this proposal to at least mention Criticism with some links to breakout pages or web searches. This is a major life and death issue in many parts of the world with no hint of it in the article.
2)Since 9/11 there has been a major international focus on Muhammad with numerous books addressing his life and actions including some comparing them to principles of western civilization. Why is no mention of these allowed on either side of the issue? This appears strong bias rather than NPOV. -- DLH 02:33, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
As Gandhi said, when asked what he thought about Western civilization, "It would be a good idea."
I do think that the See also section could be better thought out and organized. Some of your concerns could be addressed by a special section called something like "Controversial topics", which could include Muhamamd's marriages, Aisha, Muhammad as warrior, Depictions of Muhammad, and Banu Qurayza. I think that's where the controversies are.
As for discussing whether or not Muhammad acted according to the principles of Western civilization -- it's not the place of WP to discuss that. We're an encyclopedia, not a blog. We just exist to provide an overview of material and to send people off to books and websites that go into more depth. If you want to diss Muhammad, there are many websites where your views would be welcome. Zora 03:01, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm. Here we have one guy insisting that we don't give enough prominence to criticism, I suggest a way to make it more identifiable, and you want to shoot that down. I thought I'd achieved a compromise. Zora 08:15, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
But if you DON'T put the disputes in their own articles, they eat the main article. The article just gets longer and longer, more complex, and eventually unreadable. We are really trying to be neutral here; we give the gist of the dispute and say, "There's a lot more, go HERE to read it". Again, wanting to use the main article to give your POV prominence is soapboxing.
If this article were too Muslim-friendly, we wouldn't get the amount of vandalism we do, with anons turning up to wipe sections that they think insult their prophet. Zora 08:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Not wanting to 'dis' M, but address 'the elephant in the room.' May I propose the following to compactly combine these issues and with NPOV.
“The September 11, 2001 World Trade destruction and high frequency of jihadists classified as terrorists have resulted in numerous examinations of Muhammad’s life. E.g., Richardson (2004) compares them with principles of Western Civilization. Evaluations of Muhammad’s character or actions can be highly explosive, and result in a fatwa or murder. E.g., See: Al-Nader, Ocba, Asthma bint Marwan, Abu Afak, Banu Qurayza, Rushdie, Muhammad Cartoons.”
PS Suggest linking Banu Qurayza in the right timeline. -- DLH 18:48, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
In Criticism of Islam, I think the section on Muhammad is improperly categorized as it addresses Muhammad's character, not "Criticism of Islam". That overall section is also getting long.
Accordingly I propose a new breakout page on: "Muhammad's Character." Character is a more neutral term than "Criticism" and allows both sides to address the issue. Recommend that the major section on Muhammad in Criticism of Islam be placed in a major breakout article by itself titled Muhammad's Character and linked back to the main biography on Muhammad and to that Criticism of Islam page.
Under the Section Title propose links to Muhammad's Character.
Then propose the following paragraph in the main article on Muhammad linking to this new breakout page Muhammad's Character.
Muhhamad’s Character
Main articles Muhammad’s Character
Muslims view Muhammad as patient, righteous, holy, and exhibiting other high moral qualities expected of a prophet. Others question his relations with women. They observe his strong reaction to criticism and approval of critics consequent murders. Vis Al-Nader, Ocba, Asthma bint Marwan, Abu Afak. Some scholars view Muhammad’s character favorably with principles of Western civilization. e.g., Sir William Muir, and D. S. Margoliouth. Zwemer, Don Richardson (2004) and others detail differences with major Western principles. See also Muhammad's marriages, Rushdie, Muhammad Cartoons, Criticism of Islam, Banu Qurayza.
Some of the general comments relating to above could be moved to this section. -- DLH 12:38, 2 June 2006 (UTC) Recommend listing these "See also" breakout pages with this section as they all address his character.-- DLH 12:56, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
See corresponding parallel proposal under Criticism of Islam
In the summary bit I added in brackets that the Qur'an was revealed to Muhammad over a period of about 23 years. Just a quick mention Aadamh 22:18, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Changed your section title to give a general category for such changes. -- DLH 12:52, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
(1) A Wikipedia biography is not a hagiography (i.e. a worshipful or idealizing biography)! This is what many Muslim readers seem to ignore!
(2) From the unbiased historical point of view, which is the only one that matters here, Muhammad is in fact the founder of the religion of Islam and of the Muslim community [* in the full sense of "founder": "One who establishes something or formulates the basis for something" ( http://www.bartleby.com/61/92/F0279200.html)
[* This is the exact description the Encyclopaedia Britannica uses ("Muhammad." Encyclopaedia Britannica. From Encyclopaedia Britannica Ultimate Reference Suite 2005 DVD. Copyright © 1994-2004. Encyclopaedia Britannica, Inc.) What is right for the EB should be right for Wikipedia, shouldn't it?!]
(3) Only religious zealots object to calling Muhammad the "founder of the religion of Islam" for purely ideological reasons. But those ought not to call the tune here!
Editorius 13:08, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
No, the EB does not use "earthly" (which I suggested with a slightly ironic undertone). Editorius 10:52, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I just discovered something else:
Muhammad: "Arab prophet who established the religion of Islam."
(Encyclopaedia Britannica Concise: http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/article-9372773/Muhammad?query=muhammad)
Editorius 11:13, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
There is a difference of opinion about WHO Muhammad was. Muslims say one thing; non-Muslims say another. According to the Wikipedia NPOV rules, both opinions are equally good. If you make the article say, "Muhammad was the founder of Islam," then you're setting up the non-Muslim opinion as TRUE and dismissing the Muslim opinion as mere opinion.
This is breaking the ground rules of the encyclopedia and it's breaking a compromise (regarding this article) brokered over many months of discussion. It would be wrong to use this article to praise and exalt Muhammad; it's just as wrong to use it as a venue to attack Muhammad and Islam. Please, show some concern for the overall project of the encyclopedia, rather than using it merely as an arena for Muslim-bashing. Zora 17:13, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Timothy and Pecher, you're misreading the "reliable sources" policy. It says, "An opinion is a view that someone holds, the content of which may or may not be verifiable. However, that a certain person or group holds a certain opinion is a fact, and it may be included in Wikipedia if it can be verified; that is, if you can cite a good source showing that the person or group holds the opinion." OPINIONS, even if you don't agree with them, deserve to be included and presented dispassionately. You and some of the other editors are trying to twist this policy into the very opposite of NPOV. That Muhammad is the "founder" of Islam is also an opinion, based on a belief re the meaning of "founder" as well as beliefs rejecting the Muslim claim to a history for Islam before Muhammad. Zora 18:44, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Timothy, Muslims believe that Muhammad found something old and venerable, something that had been distorted or half-forgotten, cleaned it up, and presented it to the world again. To say that he's a founder is, in Muslim eyes, tantamount to calling him a forger, and dismissing his claims to be "reviving" Islam as lies. To use another analogy (one that I've used earlier) it's as if you said that Isaac Newton "invented" gravity. Scientists believe that he discovered rather than invented gravity.
We're not asking you to accept the Muslim beliefs. I don't share them myself. But we have to treat them in a NPOV manner. Zora 19:10, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
But from "Muslims believe that Muhammad is not the founder of Islam" it does not follow that Muhammad is not the founder of Islam. Editorius 02:00, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
"Muhammad is a major figure in Islam"
Sounds like
"Muhammad is just somebody among many other major figures in Islam".
Well, actually, Muhammad happens to be the major (human) figure in Islam, doesn't he?!
Editorius 02:45, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I've now protected the article per a request by User:Pecher at WP:RfPP. Please use the talk page to discuss possible changes to the article, and once you are able to reach an agreement, drop a note on my talk page or on WP:RfPP to request unprotection. AmiDaniel ( talk) 19:41, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
The word 'figure' is vague and doesn't preclude non-humans. Although it may be obvious to most people what the correct meaning of 'figure' is, comparisons with Christianity or Jesus don't justify using the term here, for the reasons mentioned in the previous section ( different concept of godhead and Jesus). Hence, that's why I think that '...most prominent person...' is better than '...the major figure...'. MP (talk) 19:52, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Last time, this was "solved" by compromising between editors' own opinions, in violation of WP:V and WP:NOR. This time, we should do it the right way, gathering Reliable sources. We can post them in this section as we find them.
Muhammad founded Islam:
Islam existed before Muhammad:
Timothy Usher 01:24, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
One contended sentence was mangled:
should read:
-- tickle me 03:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Some hadith. Hadith are a highly heterogenious body of material, and different scholars accept different hadith as strong or weak. Zora 09:53, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
Alavis claim Ali ibni Abi Talib as god. how can these people be closely related to Islam and, 'all' muslims as oppose to 'many' muslims consider them outside Islam. A person who declares that there is no God except Allah (since it is requirement for a muslim) will surely regard that person (who belives in a human as god) to be not muslim. therefore 'all' muslims as opposed to 'many' fall in that category (with exception, a person who does not regard alavis as non muslim ofcourse would be mentally ill and all these people probably account for 0.00000000000001% of the muslim population). A little use of logic is required here, no offence. By same arguement Ahmedis reject finality of prophethood (essential requirement of being a muslim), therefore they do not come under the banner of islam. ahmedis are unanimously believed to be outside of Islam by both sunnis and shia. Infact, ahmedis themselves call non-ahmedis (including muslims) kafirs. Therefore if both agree upon each other to be different, there should not be any doubt. i would suggest you to read: why muslims consider ahmedis to be non muslims and what ahmedis refer to non ahmedis (muslims) as.
I see Timothy Usher is in a little revert war here. Here is my proposal for the paragraph that keeps getting attacked. As it stands, the original version is POV from the angle of the sects and then it uses an ambiguous phrase of "... regarded by some to be Islamic." Who "some" is or isn't is left to interpretation. A better paragraph reads like this:
Muhammed is also a prophet for the Mustaˤliyya, Nizarī, Alawites, Zikri, and the Ahmadiyya. Although these religions claim to be related to Islam on superficial examination, a deeper analysis on core tenants and teachings shows distinct differences. However, members of these religions claim to be Islamic sects, but are considered non-Muslims by a majority of Muslims following traditional Islam.
If someone wants to go in and explain the distinct differences then do so but since the "sects" are linked, the reader could do the research on their own time. I'd like some discussion before making the change. 24.7.141.159 03:19, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Should we add a picture? (just kidding!)
I'm disturbed by what appears to be a trend by editors on certain articles to force other editors into engaging in debate on discussion pages over every edit. This is not myspace; some of us aren't here for the social life. The talk page is for discussing important issues related to how best to present information in the article. When someone makes an edit you think could be better put, fix it, don't revert and start a debate here. — JEREMY 04:01, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, this is going in the right direction. However we should call them (the 'sects') 'religions' instead of 'traditions' (as it is currently). Isn't that what they would call themselves? If we had "Muhammad is also a prophet for the ...", and then "These beliefs are closely related to..." we would bypass this issue altogether. 80.135.255.49 11:42, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I am having second thoughts here. Having "... several religions other than Islam." (first sentence in the section introduction) makes 'traditions' a synomym for 'religion' in this context. 80.135.255.49 11:55, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
JEREMY, why are scare-quotes better than 'Prophets of Islam' (which is the link anyway)? 80.135.255.49 12:29, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Jesus is called a 'prophet', the opposing view (held by a very large number of people, so relevant) that he is the 'Son of God' is missing. Remedy: use 'Prophets of Islam' instead of 'prophets' (after all, it's linked to WP:Prophets_of_Islam and not to WP:Prophets), to _clearify_ (stress) the point that only Muslims see him this way. Alternative: "...islamic prophets...". Thoughts on that? (I could 'fix it' right away to improve the presentation of information, but will listen to arguments first) 80.135.249.92 14:41, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
This section is still unsourced. I don't really understand what the necessity of this section is. Maybe the title should be changed to "Non-Muslim views on Muhammad"??? In any case statements like "Muslims accept that Muhammad founded Islam as a historical, political and social entity, but object to the notion that he founded the religion" seem highly generalized, subjective, and unencyclopedic. If you want to keep such statements you should at least provide some sources so the reader would know what the context is. Aucaman Talk 19:49, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Jeremy, I killed it again. Your para comes across as pure preaching. It's not necessary to understand Muhammad's biography, which is the main thing here, and the gist of it is surely conveyed by the link to the Prophets of Islam article (which I really need to check out) and the large template on the bottom of the article. Zora 03:23, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Jeremy, this article is about Muhammad, not about Islam. The doctrines of Islam don't need to be explained here except insofar as they relate to Muhammad. Your edit won't stick, because marking the Jesus and Moses hydrants as Muslim territory invites others to visit and reclaim them. We could accept this tug-of-war were the point squarely on-topic, but it's tangential. Practically, your edit only means Aiden, 80.135.249.92 or someone else's version will be up there later.
And I ask, is it considered good style to add a link each and every time a word appears, or to only link in on first mention, and only elsewhere where the case is compelling? I'm inclined to the latter approach. Zora? Timothy Usher 03:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I think I'm beginning to understand some of the concerns here. The point is that, within Islam itself, Muhammad is not the "founder" of Islam, but rather a prophet among many. The only thing that distinguishes him from the other prophets is the claim that he's supposed to be the last prophet in this sequence. This is a ligitimate point of view and probably deserves to be mentioned. I'm not sure if it deserves its own section, especially with a title like "Was Muhammad the founder of Islam?". If you want to keep it I suggest changing the title of the section to "Mohammad within Islam", so that the section can be later expanded. Aucaman Talk 04:33, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
please do not fight :)
Jeremy, please stop removing a reference to who Muhammad is in the eyes of non-Muslims. Muslims do not OWN this article. Having that reference at the top "places" Muhammad for non-Muslims.
Also, your edit combining two sentences just did not work. "Both" is an indeterminate reference. Someone reading it thinks "Both what? Both dates? Both cities?" One can eventually work it out, but that initial moment of uncertainty is unpleasant for the reader. Zora 06:47, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Jeremy, I think you're right that those two sentences are choppy. A rewrite would be fine, as long as it isn't ambiguous.
As for the "who he is" -- in biographical articles, we start off with a quick-and-dirty description of who the biographee is, and why he/she is notable. In the case of religious figures, this can be difficult, because the religion will have developed an elaborate story as to just WHO this person is -- and if it has split into sects, there will be several conflicting stories. So it's easy to give the non-Muslim version (he founded Islam) and hard to give a quick overview of the Muslim version(s). But we have to try -- we can't start the article with a 10K dissertation on Muhammadology. So yes, the Muslim version is going to be mangled by being squashed into a few sentences. But -- we have the rest of the article, or a breakout article, to explain further.
I do not think that it is fair to non-Muslims (who comprise a majority of our readers and users) to remove their view completely, which is what your version does. Zora 07:19, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
My goal in the last edits is to reduce clutter - it was just ugly - and increase clarity. Passive phrases like "He is regarded as so-and-so within/outside the faith", which reduce agents to locations on an abstract plane, are simply awful. And there is no need whatsoever to translate "prophet" or "messenger." Timothy Usher 07:52, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Anonymous editor, you've made the article more difficult to understand. As discussed above, people aren't getting the "sent to guide all mankind" in the way you mean it, and why should this point of doctrine be in the introduction? This really should go.
Why should we say Non-Muslims "generally" consider him the founder of Islam? Are people saying Uthman was the founder or the like? Is there a non-Muslim who nonetheless believes Islam to alwys have been present, as do Muslims? The move of "eventually" is awkward. It was perfectly fine where it was. And why is "defeat" better than "subdue?" Timothy Usher 01:59, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
“What I did that was because he is not a central figure or Islam but a major figure.”
Your point is that God is the central figure and that to say otherwise might be construed as blasphemous, but one be almost be willfully misconstruing the sentence and the context to walk away with that. How many people are really going to read that and think, wikipedia is saying Muhammad is more important than God? The way it reads now suggests a Druze viewpoint or the like. Maybe there’s a way to solve both problems. Any other opinions on this?
“And we don't know if every non-Muslim considers him the founder or not. We can only say generally.”
There might be those (well, most) without an opinion, but that hardly counts, It didn’t say “All non-Muslims...”, but only “Non-Muslims...” which is unspecified as to “all” or “generally”. I’ve never heard such a stance. Have you?
Similarly we might change “Muslims believe that in 610, at about the age of forty...” to “Muslims generally believe...” Perhaps some Muslim believes some aspect of the particulars are wrong? We don’t know.
This road leads to chaos, as anything can be hedged if no good reason is to be required.
I see now why you removed the first “eventually”; it was entirely superfluous. I’m still not sure about the second though.
The reason I prefered “subdue” the tribes of Arabia is because they weren’t just defeated, they were forced into a tributary relationship, against which many of them revolted after Muhammad’s death.
“...the difference between him and the other prophets really should be said.”
Perhaps there is a more natural place for it. Timothy Usher 02:37, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I have a question about the sentence: "The military organization that emerged from this struggle then set out to subdue the other tribes of
Arabia."
I think Muhammad fought with some tribes in Arabia. After conquest of Mecca, I've heard other tribes themselves believed in Muhammad as a central political power. The following verses I think are relevant: 110:1-3. When comes the Help of Allah, and Victory, And thou dost see the people enter Allah's Religion in crowds, Celebrate the praises of thy Lord, and pray for His Forgiveness: For He is Oft-Returning (in Grace and Mercy).
I think Muhammad did not fight with all tribes of Arabia.-- Aminz 02:07, 14 April 2006 (UTC) Zora, can you please let us know your opinion. thx. -- Aminz 02:24, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Anonymous editor,
Why do you prefer “military organization” to “army”?
Why do you say “defeat” instead of “subdue”? As per the discussion above, he did not in fact defeat them all, nor were they merely defeated, but also forced into a tributary relationship, and I’d be rather inclined to say so explicitly if I didn’t know it’d be reverted. He *did* subdue them all.
Zora cited Donner for “most” of Arabia. That is why I changed this. I’ve asked her to add the cite when she has a chance. Have you been following the discussion? You just got another editor blocked for being on the wrong side of an edit war with you, and one of the reasons given to him was that he doesn’t discuss things on the talk page. This won’t happen to you anyhow, but you might at least make a half-hearted show of it. As for "sent to guide mankind", first you said we could remove it from the intro, now you've restored it, but it a manner that doesn't satisfy your originally-stated reason for having it there. Timothy Usher 20:54, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Timothy, can you please explain how Zora's comments support "Muhammad went on to subdue the other tribes of Arabia." They themselves turned to Muhammad. Of course; it was because they saw which way the wind was blowing. This sentence as I can understand says that Muhammad was the initiative. Muhammad of course subdued the pagans of Mecca (peacefully) and those Jews who were joined the enemy party(by war I think). -- Aminz 21:18, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
That looks more like a good faith edit you're rvv'ing there... was that extra 'v' a slip of the keyboard? Netscott 02:32, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I suggest moving some of the historical views on Muhammad to a new article ( Muhammad in history or Muhammad as a historical figure). To avoid a POV fork they can be summarized back into this article. This article should also contain some of the religious (Islamic) views on Muhammad. What do you guys think? Aucaman Talk 10:51, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
What do you mean? Timothy Usher 10:54, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
As it should be. Articles about people are usually biographical articles. We are working on the Islamic views of Muhammad article, which gives us room to discuss the theological/philosophical issues involved. Then both sides will be covered. Zora 11:02, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Donner, The Early Islamic Conquests, Princeton University Press, 1981, p. 85:
The Arabic sources call all these movements collectively the ridda, "apostasy" or "repudiation" (of Islam) and thus at least imply that all were equally acts of blasphemy that deserved military supression by the new state. Recent scholarship has taken exception to the traditional Islamic view and argued that not all the movements can truly be called ridda-- some because they involved no rejection of the religious teachings of Islam (e.g. in al-Bahrayn, Uman, or among the B. Fazara), others because the group in question had never made any agreement to recognize Muhammad as prophet or embrace Islam (e.g., the B. Hanifa).
Donner footnotes the Banu Hanifa assertion to Elias S. Shoufani, Al-Riddah and the Muslim Conquest of Arabia, University of Toronto Press, 1972.
Donner argues that if Abu Bakr had not attempted to put all the nomadic tribes under Muslim control (including tribes in the northern part of the Syro-Arabian steppe) he would have been able to control none of them, since they simply would have been able to move away from the Muslim-controlled areas and organize for a counter-thrust. Zora 21:15, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
The article currently says, “Gabriel told him that God had chosen him as the last prophet to mankind.” Is this actually stated in the Qur’an? Sura 33: 40 would seem a rather ambiguous peg upon which to hang such an important point, in a text which does not shy from clearly and repeatedly stating key principles.
Hadith quote Muhammad himself as saying he is the last prophet, but did Gabriel tell him that? Is there some other Quranic verse involved, such that we can attribute this assertion to Gabriel? I am requesting comment before removing this apparent inaccuracy from the article. Timothy Usher 23:22, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
thx. -- Aminz 07:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Timothy, if you believe it is inaccuracy, Would you please prove to me that
Is it fair? -- Aminz 07:10, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't know. I have no idea about the sentence: "Much has been made over the years that the term "Khatam" meaning seal, or ornament is used in the Qur'an, and not the related "Khatim", which is more commonly used to mean final or last." Khatim, Khatam?? I know Khatm can be very well translated as "the last, the final". We should ask some native arabic speaker. The word Khatim sounds weird to me but I don't know arabic. -- Aminz 07:46, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
The article currently states,
Muhammad and his followers are said to have negotiated an agreement with the other Medinans, a document now known as the Constitution of Medina (date debated), which laid out the terms on which the different factions, specifically the Jews and other " Peoples of the Book" could exist within the new Islamic State. This system would come to typify Muslim relations with their non-believing subjects. In this, the Islamic empire was more tolerant than another great power of the area, the Byzantine empire, which was actively hostile to any religions or sects other than the state-sponsored version of Orthodox Christianity.
This is outrageously distortive passage, considering the fate of the Banu Qurayza, while the Banu-Qaynuqa and Banu al-Nadir were expelled. Timothy Usher 00:02, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I think they're fine. You excised a lot of POV material that crept in. This article is heartbreaking. It is edited so many times, by so many people, that if you just check the diffs, you miss various odd edits. But complete reading takes some time, even for speed readers like me. I wish it could be permanently semi-protected -- that might help a little. Zora 05:53, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I removed the section for the following reasons:
— Aiden 16:49, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
The refs in this article are not associated with the text. Anyone know their history? Is there any way we can convert them to standard refs (ie. associate them with a particular quote in the text)? Floating unattached the way they are, they're not a lot of use to anyone but the serious student willing to go and read the lot. — JEREMY 10:43, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
"...fulfilling part of one of Muhammad’s prophecies (30:4)."
What on earth are you guys doing? This kind of thing has no place here. Timothy Usher 11:01, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, I aimed to prove that the mentioning rejoicing is important. I have heard that (some?) Muslims consider this to be fulfilling part of one of Muhammad’s prophecy. -- Aminz 11:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
You changed "...[Muslims] believe him..." to the passive "...believed by Muslims..." That's warped. Timothy Usher 11:13, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Friends, I am going to sleep. Take care of the article -- Aminz 11:16, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Would you please explain why you've made these changes? Perhaps there are very good reasons. I am only curious as to what they are. Timothy Usher 12:30, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I removed the claim that the Battle of Badr fulfilled a prophecy. That is irretrievably POV. I also changed the sentence re the Banu Qaynuqa back to "Muslims accused" rather than the "allegedly". The "allegedly" removes the onus from the Muslims and leaves the accusation floating without an accuser. The Muslims moved into an area as refugees and ended by expelling or killing some of the biggest groups there and taking their land and property (and in one case, their wives and children as slaves). I'm not going to put it that way in the article, but it does look bad from a modern perspective, and I don't think the unsavory aspects should be covered up. (Not that I want them exaggerated, either -- 7th century politics was grim, and these were not the grimmest examples.)
As for "most of the rest of the Medinans converted" -- we've had that in there forever, but Watt points out that the Arabic sources make that claim for several moments in Medinan history -- a claim that is then followed by an account of a tussle with yet another tribe. A tussle which would not have happened if "most Medinans" had converted. Watt doesn't trust these claims and after reading him, I don't either. I modified that Muhammad and his followers becoming the dominant force in Medina, which I think could be defended. Zora 19:45, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Replacing
"Following this victory, the victors expelled a local Jewish clan, the Banu Qainuqa, whom they accused of breaking a treaty and risking the security of the city state. Muhammad and his followers were now a dominant force in the oasis."
To less persuasive version:
"Following this victory, the victors expelled a local Jewish clan, the Banu Qainuqa, whom they believed to have broken a treaty and risked the security of the city state."
Any objection?-- Aminz 21:23, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Someone inserted into the article "According to Ibn Ishaq, after the Banu Qurayza were defeated, all the adult men were beheaded by the order of Saad ibn Muadh, an arbiter accepted by the Banu Qurayza..." That Saad ibn Muadh was accepted by Banu Qurayza is plain wrong. In fact, Ibn Hisham's text says: "...when the Aws pleaded with [Muhammad], he said, 'Would you be satisfied, o People of Aws, if one of your own men were to pass the judgement upon them?' 'Certainly,' they replied. The Apostle of Allah... said, 'Then it shall be left to Saad ibn Muadh'." I've changed "accepted by the Banu Qurayza" to "appointed by Muhammad". Pecher Talk 22:43, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I think I wrote that in the Banu Qurayza article and I think I was wrong. I pulled out my trusty copy of Ibn Ishaq, as translated by Guillaume, and it says that the Quraysh "submitted to the apostle's judgement" p. 463 and that the faction known as Aus or Aws demanded that one of their own be allowed to give judgement, and Muhammad agreed and appointed Sa'd, who was from Aws. Sa'd demanded that the Muslims accept his judgement before he gave it, they agreed, and then he demanded death. So the Banu Qurayza only "submitted themselves", which I think means simply surrender, and it was the Aws who stood up for them and demanded someone they thought would be a lenient judge. So it needs to be fixed here and in the Banu Qurayza article.
Importance of quotes! Verifiability! You should never have let me get away with that :) Zora 01:02, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Jeremy, I disagree with retaining the translations of "prophet" and "messenger". Last we heard from Zora, she didn't seem too favorable. Consider also the link to "Vocabulary of Islam" as discussed, where the reader will find all this and more. Rather than change it unilaterally, I'd like to see what other editors think. Why do they add to the article, and why are they important? Timothy Usher 05:02, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I've re-added the founder section, as follows:
Aiden seems to think we need the whole, original three paragraph section or nothing. I can't see his point, but believe at least something is necessary in order to explain what might at first glance appear an odd idea (ie. that Muhammad didn't found Islam). Perhaps others might comment. — JEREMY 05:04, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to advocate the return of "Non-Muslims generally consider him the founder of Islam." which covers the problem of Islamic offshoots like the Ahmadi and the Bahá'í. — JEREMY 06:01, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Jeremy, that’s your fourth revert in nineteen hours: [4], [5], [6], [7]
Similarly with the translations. Please self-revert. Timothy Usher 06:43, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I have not followed what is going on, but the issue seems too minor to me. I can not see any reason for having a revert war over it. It is even less significant than using the words "accused" and "believed". I personally prefer to have the "Muslim Founder" part. Jeremy, do you want to get blocked because of these very very minor issue? -- Aminz 07:00, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Jermy, Does the two versions differ much that we need to discuss it or even get into revert war for them? Having the founder section is another story but "Arabic translation" issue is negligible. I personally think that the Arabic translations only makes the article look ugly (except I think the Arabic form of "khatamo an nabiyin" is better to be included since I am not sure if Seal of the prophet is the exact equivalent of the Arabic expression). Why don't we get rid of arabic translations? -- Aminz 10:15, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
it is not clear to me what mohammed believed his own faith to be, before or after becoming a prophet. what was the religion he was brought up in, and did he refer to himself as a "muslim" or by another term? Aaronbrick 02:04, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
There is indeed a great deal of controvosy about the religion of Muhammad. There are some reports however, that state muhammad was not exactly a follower of a religion before receiving revelations, but that he refrained from wrong doing, he did not drink alcohol, did not commit adultry, did not speak bad about others etc.-- 81.178.61.46 17:33, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
During his childhood Muhammad, was known to be a very helpful and a honest person to his neighbours, thus the meccans called him with the name "Al-Ameen" the trustworthy one, or the honest one.
You removed my additions saying "what exactly does the reference say", do you have any idea what does the rest of the references say about prophet Muhammed? Have you read all the references? Why are you only questioning the reference when it talks good about him? why aren't you questioning the other references. All I can say is if each user keeps removing things from the article asking "what exactly the reference says" there wont be an article left for anyone to read. I advice you to think calm and collectively whether what you are doing is the correct thing, because earlier when you removed the same content you said "Hagiography as per Zora" now you are giving a totally different reason. I dont quite understand your intentions here..Is it to keep away everything good about prophet out of the article. Sorry for not assuming good faith I've lost faith with your second removal with a different reason than the first. «₪Mÿš†íc₪» 10:54, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Getting back to "During his childhood Muhammad, was known to be a very helpful and a honest person to his neighbors, thus the meccans called him with the name "Al-Ameen" the trustworthy one, or the honest one."
I believe being honest can be easily defended(based on the Islamic sources) since 1. I have heard that several stories which can lead one to such a conclusion (e.g. a story(in my words): The way Muhammad first started preaching was that he told people if I tell you that enemy's soldiers are behind this mountain will you believe me? They said yes, we will believe you, we have trust in you. Then Muhammad said that i have become a prophet ...."
2. Being trustworthy(title of Al-Amin) without being honest seems impossible to me.
Regarding being "very helpful", I think it is mentioned in the Islamic sources that Muhammad, when he was young, for example joined(formed?) a community of young people established with the purpose of helping others. I have vague memories of these stories.
Timothy, I think writing all these stories in the article is unneccessary.-- Aminz 10:29, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Timothy, Your questions are good ones and their answers will help improving the article. Could you please specify your position? Do you accept the Islamic sources of biography of Muhammad?
I don't think the statement that the title Al-Amin was given to Muhammad before his claim of prophethood could be disputed. There are several traditions supporting it(It is said that Khadija, his wife, was touched by Muhammad's honesty and trustworthyness.) -- Aminz 10:50, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Zora, but this sentence belongs to the section "His life according to Islamic traditions". I agree with Mystic. -- Aminz 19:13, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Timothy, this sentence is already written in the section "His life according to Islamic traditions". Everything in this section is supposed to be Islamic traditions. I am really confused. Of course the Islamic traditions should say (and we expect to say) "During his childhood Muhammad, was known to be a very helpful and a honest person to his neighbors, thus the meccans called him with the name "Al-Ameen" the trustworthy one, or the honest one." -- Aminz 21:52, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Tomothy, I think you should let Muslims to write their own POV. If you can find a Muslims who disputes the above sentence, then we can enter into more details. I think the above sentence is even a mild Muslim POV. Please note the Muslim editor's feedback to your edits. This by itself is an evidence. -- Aminz 22:01, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Or maybe we can add "According to the Islamic sources" before the sentence though this is redundant since the whole section is according to the Islamic sources. But I think this is at least better than adding skeptics' point of view in the section which is supposed be the Bio according to the Islamic sources. -- Aminz 23:06, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
What if there are many related stories? Should we say:"according to Tim, Bob is nice?", "according to Charls, Bob is nice?" "according to Alice, Bob is nice?" "according to Wendy, Bob is nice?" ... Please note that even Muhammad was reminding people of his reputation hoping that people may believe in his message. Were this controversial among Muslims, I would have agreed with you. Were this not wellknown among Muslims, I would have agreed with you. There is no report, as far as I am aware, that Muhammad has ever lied. -- Aminz 23:31, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I have heard many stories but don't know how the original sources relate them or where they are related. -- Aminz 23:06, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
It says: 'Muhammad was KNOWN TO BE . . . ' so it's just talking 'bout the prophet (PBUH)'s reputation. And the holy Quran even states that he was an honest person that never lied. So we've got that to back it up.
Zora, why did you remove my comment? -- Aminz 00:28, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Timothy. Zora, regarding your suggestion, you are more experienced than me.
For example? (Would you please let me know the Qur'anic ones first, then the Hadiths that are both accepted by Shia and Sunni and then bukhari hadiths). Thanks -- Aminz 00:41, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't know how this constitutes a lie. By the same standard, all other verses that particularly increase Muhammad's obligations (such as the obligation to stay awake and pray around half of every night or the obligation to preach the message while he was persecuted) are also considered lie (because Muhammad or Gabriel have changed their mind). I need to go now but will back in an hour. I will write more. --
Aminz
00:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I am back! First of all, I should say I have not done any research about this issue and all I want to say are based on what I’ve heard here and there and my personal thoughts.
1. I believe Islam has a more natural view to sex than some other religions such as Christianity. Sex is not considered as a taboo. It is not discouraged (Muslim never have had the practices of abstaining from sex, marrying etc.) Islam does not view sex as something bad or something that should be suppressed but only something that should be controlled. Islam unlike Christianity does not view sex as something (somehow sinful?) which should be only done for the purpose of making children. It might be interesting to you that Koran mentions the love between husband and wife as a sign of God but does not mention the love between mother and child as a sign of God. Interesting, not? Note that Muhammad had many wives but Jesus didn’t marry. At least in the sense of view on “sex”, I like Islam, and particularly shi’aism.
2. Assuming Muhammad was God’s prophet, which in this case has bear many difficulties (as is reflected in Qur’an e.g. 20:2 “We have not sent down the Qur'an to thee to be (an occasion) for thy distress…”, “Thou wouldst only, perchance, fret thyself to death, following after them, in grief, if they believe not in this Message.” 18:6) I don’t see it unreasonable that God wants to relax some of Muhammad’s obligations. I can not agree that this point will prove that Muhammad was a liar.
3. I don’t see anything bad with Muhammad’s desire to women. He was a human after all. I personally have desire to women and don’t consider it bad. I have some personal experiences which makes me to have a different feeling. Let me tell you how I, as a Muslim, felt after coming to US. I came from Iran where women are covering their beauties (they do NOT wear burqa). It was a big change for me! I was really bothered by the way these pretty American girls were dressing. I was feeling very sinful whenever I had a bad look to any girl. A very covered girl, in your standards, was like a very sexy dressed girl in my standards. In Islam, even having a lusty look to a woman is seen very sinful; not speaking of how sinful other things such as self satisfaction are. The only way to avoid sinning in Islam is marriage. Marriage is very encouraged. I have sinned a lot and somehow have lost my sensibility to sinning. I am going to hell anyway, but I can assume God didn’t want Muhammad to be punished. As I can understand from the story of Zaid, Zaid’s wife may have appeared beautiful to Muhammad’s eyes. I believe God relaxed Muhammad’s obligations to help him avoid sinning and have the feeling of being guilty. It is really hard to bear the burden of sexual related sins. It comes to mind over and over again and bothers the person.
In conclusion, I can not agree with Timothy that this commandment constitutes a lie. -- Aminz 03:22, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Seriously. This article isn't entirely fact. What I mean by that is that this article is supposed to be saying what the Holy Quran said about Muhammad (PBUH) and what Muslims think. Because what the Quran said about Muhammad (PBUH) is the truth. Duh. Timothy Usher, I seriously don't get why we're fighting over this, because the article is fine except for that stupid picture and the numerous edits that are WRONG.
First, Arsath, you've reverted thrice today, I only twice. So it's not appropriate to speak of me "fighting [your] edits" (nor am I the only one).
It seems you're simply ignoring what I write here. I've been very specific:
I've asked you these things again and again in the discussion above, and you've not answered one. Timothy Usher 18:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
IT IS MUSLIM POV THAT MUHAMMAD "WAS AN HONEST AND HELPFUL CHILD". This is clear since all the Muslim editors here testify to it. This is exactly the definition of Muslim POV and that sentence is written in the Muslim POV section. It is like the Christian POV that Jesus was mild. Can anybody please explain to me that when the pov tag is added to the article, what it is supposed to mean? That there are Muslims who do not believe Muhammad was honest and helpful?!!! -- Aminz 02:08, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry if I have misunderstood the discussion here.
Being helpful:
1. "The real point seems to be, he helped repair the Kaaba." to my mind is not directly relevant to Muhammad being helpful. He only helped the dispute to be resolved! One example is the story that: When he was young, he joined(formed?)a community that was dedicated to helping others(which I guess should include old people, women and orphans). At least please note that how many times Qur'an uses the word "zakat" (i.e. charity). Too many times! You can see the phrase"Those who pray and pay charity" is repeated over and over everywhere in Qur'an. This at least proves how the mind of Muhammad was familiar with this. If you assume Muhammad wrote the Qur'an then this repetition proves something. Doesn't it? By the way, according to the Islamic sources, paying Zakat only includes but is not restricted to charity. Teaching others is the Zakat of knowledge. Helping others, I believe, is the Zakat of being healthy and wealthy and so on.
Being trustworthy and honest:
2. He was given the title "Al-Amin" which means trustworthy one or honest one. This title by itself proves he was known for his trustworthyness.
-- Aminz 02:39, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
1a) Same question as to Arsath: please substantiate this story. What community? According to what source?
1b) The frequency of his exhorting others to charity in the Qur'an proves nothing about his reputation as a child.
2) When was he given this title? Unless you can show he was given it as a child, it's again irrelevant.
Please, engage the three questions I posed to Arsath instead of just re-asserting yourself. Timothy Usher 02:50, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I prepared a draft of a version that puts commonly-accepted Muslim traditions not accepted by Western scholars like Watt into a separate section. Rather than put it up directly, I'm putting it up at Talk:Muhammad/temp for comment. Hold on while I set up the link and paste the text. Zora 21:05, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
"Muhammad was known to be a very trustworthy and honest person, thus the meccans called him with the name "Al-Amin" the trustworthy one or the honest one. [1] [2]"
It is referenced and is a Muslim POV. Any objection?-- Aminz 10:02, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Zora. I agree it is Muslim POV. It is a famous Muslim POV and I believe it should be mentioned in the article (either in the third section or somewhere else)
"Muslims believe that Muhammad was greatly respected by his Meccan relatives and neighbors, so much so that they called him with the title "Al-Amin" which means the trustworthy one or the honest one."
How is this one? -- Aminz 20:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I was off delivering an edited manuscript. Whew! "Called him with the title" is not correct English. "Gave him the title" or "called him", but not both. It's OK, English is your second -- or perhaps third -- language. Zora 02:21, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I excerpt from Ibn Ishaq (among the bios links of the article) [11]:
Al-Amin:
“The Apostle of Allah grew - Allah protecting, keeping and guarding him from the abominations of idolatry, having predestined him to become His apostle and the recipient of His grace - till he became the most excellent man of his people, the most agreeable in behaviour, the most noble in descent, the finest in neighbourly feeling, the greatest in meekness, and the most truthful in utterance; the greatest in fidelity, the furthest from wickedness and from acts which pollute; so exalted and noble that he was called among his people ‘the faithful’, because of the good qualities Allah had bestowed upon him.”
So, Ibn-Ishaq suggests that Muhammad was a Hanif, that he was overall a great guy, and was known as Al-Amin, but doesn't say how he knows this, or substantiate anything. I think this must be the ultimate source.
Rebuilding the Kaaba:
“The groups of the Quraysh now collected stones for the rebuilding, each group gathering seperately, and they built until they reached the spot for the ruku [the sacred stone]. Then all the people quarrelled, because each group wished the honour of lifting the stone into place; so bitter were the quarrels that the groups made alliances and prepared to fight. One group produce a dish filled with blood and entered into a covenant unto death with another group by dipping their hands into the dish - they were therefore called blood-lickers. The situation remained thus for four or five nights; then the Quraysh assembled in the mosque to consult and reach a decision, and the oldest man among them said at last, 'Why not let he who next enters through the door of this mosque be the arbiter in this quarrel, and let him decide it?' They agreed, and the first man who entered was the apostle of Allah. And they said, 'This is the faithful one! We agree that he shall judge.' When he came near they told him of the problem and he said, 'Bring me a cloak'. When they had brought one, he placed the ruku [black stone] in it with his own hands, saying, 'Let every group take hold of a part of the cloak.' Then all of them lifted it together, and when they reached the spot, the apostle placed it in position with his own hands, and the building was continued over it.”
This is much more significant, I believe, than the nickname, because he's organizing the placement of the Black Stone on the Kaaba. There are many stories here which could be included in the article. However, they should be, as Zora suggests, in their own section. Timothy Usher 03:22, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Just one of a large number of anecdotes, picked more or less at random, which could be included:
"On his arrival in Syria the apostle of Allah alighted in the shade of a tree near the hermitage of a monk, who approached Maysara and asked, ‘Who is this man under the tree?’ Maysara replied, ‘This man is one of the Quraysh from the sacred city.’ And the monk said, ‘Under this tree no one ever alighted except a prophet.’"
becomes
"Muslims believe that, when Muhammad arrived in Syria, a monk noticed him sitting under a particular tree beneath which only prophets had sat before." [CITE].
It's just as well-documented as "Al-Amin", and just as important: if Muhammad's honestly/faithfulness means he'd never lie about the Qur'an, so does his sitting beneath the prophet-tree mean he is destined to be a prophet. Timothy Usher 06:03, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Timothy, your argument is ironic. Had you read Qur'an once, you would have realized its insistence on showing Muhammad's sincerity and honesty and you have felt the context in which the arguments are presented. I will get into the story you mentioned but I don't believe the famous title of "Al-Amin" an that story are comparable.
I have heard a story in which the monk is Buhayra. There was no mention of "prophet tree" there. The story as I have heard is as following: The monk was expecting a prophet to rise from arabia (the land of kedar based on some prophecies). Muhammad at that time was a child. It was noon and the weather was hot. Buhayra saw a cloud shaded on Muhammad. He came to Muhammad and asked him some questions and found the signs of prophet hood in him. He then told AbuTaleb about the future of Muhammad. -- Aminz 06:37, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I think we should list all of the versions of this story in the article. Because it usually has the same point but is slightly changed---stories, i mean.
Could you please explain why my edit was reverted? thx. -- Aminz 04:06, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
That Abdulrahman link was some pretty sneaky vandalism. Thanks, Aminz. Timothy Usher 06:44, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
User:OrphanBot has removed a useful image from the page. I've left {{test2a-n|Muhammad}} on both bot and botmaster discussion pages. OrphanBot should join the talk page like the rest of us. Timothy Usher 11:27, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Isn't it forbidden to build structures above graves in Islam?
Technically Islam teaches muslim to restrain from building any grave stones, monuments etc. on top of, or around graves, because it may encourage some muslims to start praying at the grave with these grave stones, which is idolatry, and idolatry is shirk, which it is unanimously agreed to be the biggest sin a muslim can commit. Aadamh 15:21, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
ok zora, i will source what i have said. And not "all" muslims believe in the same thing. I should of specified, I was refering to sunni Muslims. -- 81.178.61.46 14:46, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I quote from the book 'Heavenly Ornaments- A Classical Manual of Islamic Sacred Law' by 'Ashraf Ali Thanwi' ( a muslim scholar) "It is haraam to construct a dome over the grave for the purpose of decoration. If this is done in order to strengthen the grave, then it will be mukruh. It is permissable to write something on the grave of the deceased as a means of remembrance". Haraam means: forbidden and Makruh means: disliked. -- Aadamh 21:27, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
So what gives you the right to say that Islam as a religion, allows this? Apart from saying muslims do this, because of course there are muslims that do not adhere to the teachings of islam.-- 81.178.61.46 17:25, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
And what can you say that is accepted by all muslims, if there are different sects. Evidence should be taken from the Qur'an and sunnah, not what some muslims do.
I put up a temp version and the other editors said "Oh that's nice" and ignored it. I suppose the only way I'm going to get any feedback is by putting it up as the regular version. Note that there is now a section where Muslim stories can be put. Not all of them are there. I'd call them folklore. Western-educated Muslims would probably call them folklore. As Aminz points out, millions of Muslims believe that they are literally true. More stories can be added. Would it be possible to add the ones that both Sunni and Shi'a accept, rather than immediately jumping into polemics? Zora 23:31, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I should make it clear, because it wasn't clear before now: the section "based on Islamic traditions" was originally intended (by me, who wrote it) as reflecting the work of scholars like Watt who accept much of the Islamic tradition. BUT, they don't accept it all. Muslim editors wanted to add stuff that academic editors wouldn't accept. We have to make it clear that academics who write about Muhammad take a resolutely secular, non-supernatural POV, and they don't accept a lot of stories that Muslims tell about Muhammad. That's why we had the fights about "Al-Amin" - the Muslim editors thought that the long section was "theirs" and the non-Muslim editors didn't agree. Now we've got the POVs sorted out. Zora 00:00, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
AE, as the section on sources says, there are two academic schools of thought, the minimalists and the traditionalists. Both are represented here. The first school is Wansborough, Crone, Cook, Hinds, Berkey, etc., though they are easing up as they get older and accepting more :) The second school would be Watt, Madelung, Donner, and other academics who are willing to work with the Islamic traditions. It's a fairly small pool of scholars and they tend to disagree on matters arcane enough that they aren't even covered here. If we have to add lots of caveats and references, we can do breakout articles on the academic tradtions. Zora 00:28, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
No, because the minimalists throw out 90% of what the traditionalists accept. After a century of academic fussing over minor edits to the Muslim traditons, Wansborough and his students arrived on the scene and declared it was all junk. If you can get hold of a copy of Hagarism, have a read. (It's out of print, and rare. I haven't been able to afford a copy -- but I'm old enough to remember the fuss when it came out. The later Crone is a little bit less of an iconoclast.) Zora 00:36, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
The section title "His life according to Islamic traditions accepted by non-Muslim scholars" is misleading and, on balance, factually wrong. It may have been intended to indicate that the narrative cannot be disproved by methods of historical science because (1) no other sources are available, (2) it is not self-contradictory, and (3) supernatural claims are not a subject of historical science anyway. However, the word "accept" doesn't convey that to the average reader, because "accept" is not the correct word for that.
"To accept" means to receive with consent or approval, to admit or to agree to. To claim that the given narrative is in this way "accepted" by (a majority of) non-muslim scholars is not true, if only because such acceptance would be unscholarly (unscientific) considering the almost complete absence of contemporay and corroborated sources, archeological evidence and such. For that alone, based on scientific principle, the traditional narrative can be, and must be, disputed (like those of other religions are). Historians that "accept" most of the narrative would not be able to make a convincing scientific case for that view by todays standards.
That is why the section was originally called "His life according to Islamic traditions". It is only those traditions that fully "accept" what is narrated here. If nobody comes up with a better idea, the section title should be reverted to the former version. By the same argument, the section "Muslim traditions not accepted by non-Muslim academics" should at least be renamed so as not to convey implicitly that the narrative of the "His life ..." section is, in contrast, "accepted" by academics and therefore "historically true" (considering that for laymen, using 'academic' always implies scientific truth). -- 80.135.226.107 20:24, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Does putting the info into italicized subtitles help? Zora 01:45, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Expounding who Muslims think Muhammad IS, in a theological sense, is not really part of Muhammad's biography. It's part of the Islamic conceptions of Muhammad article -- I forget the exact name.
Furthermore, it's stating as fact something that is not true. All Muslims NOW say that Muhammad is the universal prophet, but this was not the case in the first century or so of Islam. Suleiman Bashear's book Arabs and Others explores this in detail. He argues that there were two currents of thought in the Muslim community up until the Abbasid revolution: Islam for everyone and Islam for the Arabs. Those who thought Islam was for the Arabs thought that Muhammad was the prophet for the Arabs. In order to convert, non-Arabs had to be adopted into an Arab tribe.
This is the kind of complicated matter that should be discussed in the "Muhammadology" article I mentioned above. Putting it in one sentence in the biography is glossing over history, and controversy, AND it's preaching. It's not necessary. The article has done fine without it for years. Zora 15:18, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Zora, what I wrote has direct Qur'anic support. Moreover, not in one place but in several places for the case of Muhammad (for the case of Jesus I remember once). If you would like, I can say Qur'an says that and add the references but I think that was fine. I have no idea about your argument but it seems strange since it was after the death of Muhammad that the Islamic territory was expanded (and Persians for example became Muslims; they never became Arabs (if you tell a Persian that he has become Arab, he/she will be offended ;) ). Are you sure that the other thought was supported by a significant group of people? Was it global or just appeared at a particular period of time? After we are done with this argument, if I was right, I'll try to respond to your other arguments. Thanks -- Aminz 20:07, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
We can write Qur'an says so rather than Muslims say so. -- Aminz 21:18, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Aminz, there are verses in the Qur'an that can be interpreted both ways. WP has no authority to declare what the Qur'an means. As to the problems converting non-Arabs, yes, it's true. There's no academic controversy about it. It's all there in Tabari, in Baladhuri, in other chronicles. There are instances in which entire villages wanted to convert, to escape the jizya, and were refused. This was said to be one of the reasons that the Umayyads fell; they could only count on Arab support (and only the Syrian Arabs) whereas the Abbasids had the Persians behind them. (Of course, that part is debateable.) Zora 05:14, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Zora, can you please show me just one verse that can be interpreted as "Every one who wants to become a Muslim should become an Arab" or "Muhammad was sent only to Arabs". I can show you several verses that unambiguously states that Muhammad's message was for all mankind. Muhammad sent letters to Sasanid and Roman empires inviting them to Islam. "Salman The Persian" was a famous companion of Muhammad and yet was not an Arab. Please just show me one verse that can be intepreted in a way that supports "there are verses in the Qur'an that can be interpreted both ways". (I searched the Qur'an the word "arab" or "arabic" only appears 11 times in Qur'an and I checked all these verses. But maybe I've missed the one you mean). Zora, I think yes there are tough, problematic and controversial issues in Qur'an but this is not one of them. -- Aminz 10:27, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Zora, how can muhammad be sent to only th arabs? If you research the Quran and hadith properly then it is clearly explained that muhammad was a prophet for ALL people, any race, not just the arabs. -- 81.178.61.46 18:05, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Bilal, I don't think it's accurate to say that Muslims believe that Jibril asked, rather than commanded, Muhammad. Isn't the first word of revelations supposed to be, "Recite!"? As for the sentence re head pain -- your edit made it ungrammatical but it wasn't such a great sentence before you worked on it. I realized that we didn't need it, so junked it. So I think you had a valid perception there, that it was less than optimal sentence. Zora 05:17, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, Zora, you're right -- Aadamh 22:56, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Chistofishman writes: Christians in general view Muhammad as a false prophet who derived much of his teachings from the heresey of Arianism. Um, I don't think "Christians in general" have ever heard of Arianism, so I added {Citation needed}. — johndburger 20:14, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Now as I consider the topic in more specific you could get into a discussion about "Christians in general"
Certainly there are Christian groups that are also Aryanist but not Mohammedans. For instance the Mormons and Jehovah witnesses as well as I believe some of the Egyptian copic churches. But this affects weather or not Christians consider Aryanism heresy or not and does not represent a majority of Christians.
The debate is more complicated by the fact that not believing Christ to be uncreated God excludes you from the definition of Christian in the view of: Catholics (Russian, eastern and roman). Lutherans, Baptists , Episcopalians, Anglicans ect. So the minority group may not geven be Christians depending on your definition of the term.
If you want to amend the statement with "Christians in general, but not all" I guess that might help.
do you want one or all of the citations?
-- chistofishman 20:50, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I think you misunderstand—I'm not objecting to "view Muhammad as a false prophet", I'm objecting to the rest of it. Do you really mean to say that the majority of Christians know anything about Arianism? That's what your sentence indicates. I would be surprised if more than a few percent have even heard of it. If you disagree, you definitely need a citation about the Arianism part, not necessarily the false prophet part. If you didn't mean to say that, then I'd suggest just eliding the text to "Christians in general view Muhammad as a false prophet."
If in fact you meant to talk about the doctrine of most Christian sects, that's very different from what "most Christians view". — johndburger 00:08, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
By default Christians view Muhammad as a false prophet, but I would not say they believe his teachings were inspired by Arianism. — Aiden 18:26, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I believe the proper term to describe that branch of Christian Philosophy. Especially at the time of Muhammad is Arianism.
Which is further supported by the idea that Islam spread very quickly in the area where Arianism was popular.
I don't claim that there are all that many people who are familiar with the formal term. I would make the claim that anyone who is familiar with the meaning of the term Arianism can see very easily that as a category of Christian philosophy that is the one which Islam most directly resembles.
I would not make the claim that the Mormons or the Jehovah’s witnesses derived any of there philosophy directly from the teachings of the historical Arius. However because they both hold that Christ is not God the fit the term as it is most commonly used by Christian scholars and theologians. Not withstanding the fact many Christians may not be familiar with the term most of them would recognize the accuracy of the classification.
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Arianism/id/68172
Can someone find a better term that categorizes Islam within the context of the Christian view on theology? That is what I'm looking for. Is there a better term? -- chistofishman 16:17, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm upset by Natalina's edits -- she declared the organization of the article invalid, then changed the section headers. I don't like her prose and I don't like the emphasis on "military organization". Editing when I'm angry is usually a mistake, so I'm just calling attention to this. I hope the other editors agree with me. Zora 03:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
so? ur angry....
An anon added material to the sources section saying that the hadith had been written down from the start and that they are completely reliable. No Western academic scholars believe this, and even Muslim scholars recognize that the hadith are recorded oral traditions and that they are sometimes contradictory and unreliable. Much of the work of the ulema consists of judging hadith as strong or weak, reliable or unreliable. Different traditions, and even different scholars, weigh the hadith differently.
Another editor had made some changes to the section re Muhammad's marriage to Khadijah. I didn't like the edits but rather than using the old version, I rewrote. Perhap that is more acceptable? Zora 09:22, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
This article discreetly promotes islam. That is NPOV. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Shaitan Al Mahdi ( talk • contribs) 01:41, 26 May 2006.
At some point, someone wrote that Muhammad was poisoned, and then started embroidering on that. I removed all of that. It is not accepted by academics, or by the earliest Muslim authorities -- that is generally believed to be a later anti-Jewish myth. Zora 02:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
DLH and Pecher worked to turn the article into an indictment of Muhammad and Islam. I'm pressed for time and too upset to edit carefully, but ... I don't think that this was wise. Zora 19:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I completely rewrote the marriages section, trying to keep it as neutral as I could. I also removed the legacy section. If the legacy section is going to become an occasion of debate about the spread of Islam, I think we're better off without it. There are other articles where this is discussed. A biography isn't the right place. Zora 19:25, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Now Pecher and Timothy are adding extra references to "prove" that Muhammad was a child abuser. Someone is going to start adding all the refs that "disprove" it and then you'll end up recreating the whole dang controversy section in the Aisha article on the Muhammad page. Does this help the encyclopedia? NO. It's all about propagandizing for your POV at the expense of the project as a whole. Zora 03:22, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Anonymous editor, I have a great reading recommendation for you. It's a collection of sayings, called Hadith, compiled by Bukhari and others, and is central to a major world religion called Islam. Conveniently, there are links to it in a section of this very article which you've just moved. I know you're busy, but if you can take a few moments to actually read the passages at issue, instead of just moving them, they say clearly that Aisha was six upon marriage, not nine. She was nine when Muhammad first had sex with her. No one is saying she was nine when they were married. Your negligent edit mischaracterizes the cited sources. Timothy Usher 05:54, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Timothy and Pecher, please READ the Aisha article, and stop refusing to admit that there's a dispute. If we're arguing, there IS a dispute. Zora 09:11, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Ah, I see where this is going off the tracks. There's a dispute if there are two or more NOTABLE positions on a topic. Notable doesn't mean that academics support it. It just means that there's a sufficiently large number of people who believe it, and that this belief can be demonstrated with references. We've got references from several un-connected websites, plus a book -- that's notable, that's widespread. I have written articles where I have described positions that I regard as completely bogus, supported by NO academics, because they're held by a sufficient number of people. That's playing fair. Please play fair. Zora 09:48, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Timothy, I didn't remove your edit. I think there was an edit conflict and you didn't notice. As for Aisha's age, I don't think that the "nine-year-old" theory is an academically accepted fact. I've been pawing through my bios of Muhammad -- Watt and Rodinson say that Aisha was YOUNG, but they don't give an exact age. Since Watt tends to dismiss something by not commenting on it, rather than by attacking it directly, I think that's an indication that he prefers the sira over the hadith. In fact, he says as much in the introduction to his two volume bio of Muhammad -- he uses Tabari, Ibn Ishaq, Ibn Sa'd, and Waqidi rather than hadith. All the sites screaming "Muhammad the pedophile" are non-academic sites themselves, and of very dubious quality. Any mud you throw at the "she was older" sites sticks to the "she was a poor abused child" sites too. Zora 10:35, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
If I can get a copy of the Encyclopedia of Islam, I'll check it out.
Pecher, you're trying to use WP to declare your side of the argument correct. It's hard not to get sucked into the fray, BUT ... I think we have enough references, from enough people, enough websites, to suggest that some Muslims are questioning those hadith, and that the arguments that they put forth should be presented too. I can't give you a cite from the Spellberg book right now (I discovered it only recently, through the Gertrude Bell Jar site) but I've ordered it and I'll be able to give cites in a few weeks. There is a dispute, and you are being unfair in unilaterally trying to rule the dispute out of existence. You are declaring a viewpoint "non-notable" because you don't like what it says, and so that you can present your viewpoint as the TRUTH.
The problem with trying to use academic sources is that the academics haven't paid much attention to the question. Attacks on Muhammad as a child-molester come from outside the academic community (as is evident from the sites given in Aisha) and the responses have too. Academics don't get whuffie from getting involved with these disputes, so they stay away. That's why I want to see the material you cited re Watt's acceptance of the tradition, rather than taking your word for it. Zora 21:12, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Considering the frequent removal of almost all materials even moderately critical of Muhammad from this biography, recommend adding a subheading and disclaimer.
==Criticism==
“Any criticism of Muhammad’s character or actions is highly explosive and rarely tolerated, often leading to a fatwa and murder. Seek such critiques elsewhere. See: Al-Nader, Ocba, Asthma bint Marwan, Abu Afak, Banu Qurayza, Rushdie.”
Recommend adding breakout pages for these and a breakout bibliography providing references to such critiques. -- DLH 21:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
1)Please address the substance of this proposal to at least mention Criticism with some links to breakout pages or web searches. This is a major life and death issue in many parts of the world with no hint of it in the article.
2)Since 9/11 there has been a major international focus on Muhammad with numerous books addressing his life and actions including some comparing them to principles of western civilization. Why is no mention of these allowed on either side of the issue? This appears strong bias rather than NPOV. -- DLH 02:33, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
As Gandhi said, when asked what he thought about Western civilization, "It would be a good idea."
I do think that the See also section could be better thought out and organized. Some of your concerns could be addressed by a special section called something like "Controversial topics", which could include Muhamamd's marriages, Aisha, Muhammad as warrior, Depictions of Muhammad, and Banu Qurayza. I think that's where the controversies are.
As for discussing whether or not Muhammad acted according to the principles of Western civilization -- it's not the place of WP to discuss that. We're an encyclopedia, not a blog. We just exist to provide an overview of material and to send people off to books and websites that go into more depth. If you want to diss Muhammad, there are many websites where your views would be welcome. Zora 03:01, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm. Here we have one guy insisting that we don't give enough prominence to criticism, I suggest a way to make it more identifiable, and you want to shoot that down. I thought I'd achieved a compromise. Zora 08:15, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
But if you DON'T put the disputes in their own articles, they eat the main article. The article just gets longer and longer, more complex, and eventually unreadable. We are really trying to be neutral here; we give the gist of the dispute and say, "There's a lot more, go HERE to read it". Again, wanting to use the main article to give your POV prominence is soapboxing.
If this article were too Muslim-friendly, we wouldn't get the amount of vandalism we do, with anons turning up to wipe sections that they think insult their prophet. Zora 08:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Not wanting to 'dis' M, but address 'the elephant in the room.' May I propose the following to compactly combine these issues and with NPOV.
“The September 11, 2001 World Trade destruction and high frequency of jihadists classified as terrorists have resulted in numerous examinations of Muhammad’s life. E.g., Richardson (2004) compares them with principles of Western Civilization. Evaluations of Muhammad’s character or actions can be highly explosive, and result in a fatwa or murder. E.g., See: Al-Nader, Ocba, Asthma bint Marwan, Abu Afak, Banu Qurayza, Rushdie, Muhammad Cartoons.”
PS Suggest linking Banu Qurayza in the right timeline. -- DLH 18:48, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
In Criticism of Islam, I think the section on Muhammad is improperly categorized as it addresses Muhammad's character, not "Criticism of Islam". That overall section is also getting long.
Accordingly I propose a new breakout page on: "Muhammad's Character." Character is a more neutral term than "Criticism" and allows both sides to address the issue. Recommend that the major section on Muhammad in Criticism of Islam be placed in a major breakout article by itself titled Muhammad's Character and linked back to the main biography on Muhammad and to that Criticism of Islam page.
Under the Section Title propose links to Muhammad's Character.
Then propose the following paragraph in the main article on Muhammad linking to this new breakout page Muhammad's Character.
Muhhamad’s Character
Main articles Muhammad’s Character
Muslims view Muhammad as patient, righteous, holy, and exhibiting other high moral qualities expected of a prophet. Others question his relations with women. They observe his strong reaction to criticism and approval of critics consequent murders. Vis Al-Nader, Ocba, Asthma bint Marwan, Abu Afak. Some scholars view Muhammad’s character favorably with principles of Western civilization. e.g., Sir William Muir, and D. S. Margoliouth. Zwemer, Don Richardson (2004) and others detail differences with major Western principles. See also Muhammad's marriages, Rushdie, Muhammad Cartoons, Criticism of Islam, Banu Qurayza.
Some of the general comments relating to above could be moved to this section. -- DLH 12:38, 2 June 2006 (UTC) Recommend listing these "See also" breakout pages with this section as they all address his character.-- DLH 12:56, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
See corresponding parallel proposal under Criticism of Islam
In the summary bit I added in brackets that the Qur'an was revealed to Muhammad over a period of about 23 years. Just a quick mention Aadamh 22:18, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Changed your section title to give a general category for such changes. -- DLH 12:52, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
(1) A Wikipedia biography is not a hagiography (i.e. a worshipful or idealizing biography)! This is what many Muslim readers seem to ignore!
(2) From the unbiased historical point of view, which is the only one that matters here, Muhammad is in fact the founder of the religion of Islam and of the Muslim community [* in the full sense of "founder": "One who establishes something or formulates the basis for something" ( http://www.bartleby.com/61/92/F0279200.html)
[* This is the exact description the Encyclopaedia Britannica uses ("Muhammad." Encyclopaedia Britannica. From Encyclopaedia Britannica Ultimate Reference Suite 2005 DVD. Copyright © 1994-2004. Encyclopaedia Britannica, Inc.) What is right for the EB should be right for Wikipedia, shouldn't it?!]
(3) Only religious zealots object to calling Muhammad the "founder of the religion of Islam" for purely ideological reasons. But those ought not to call the tune here!
Editorius 13:08, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
No, the EB does not use "earthly" (which I suggested with a slightly ironic undertone). Editorius 10:52, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I just discovered something else:
Muhammad: "Arab prophet who established the religion of Islam."
(Encyclopaedia Britannica Concise: http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/article-9372773/Muhammad?query=muhammad)
Editorius 11:13, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
There is a difference of opinion about WHO Muhammad was. Muslims say one thing; non-Muslims say another. According to the Wikipedia NPOV rules, both opinions are equally good. If you make the article say, "Muhammad was the founder of Islam," then you're setting up the non-Muslim opinion as TRUE and dismissing the Muslim opinion as mere opinion.
This is breaking the ground rules of the encyclopedia and it's breaking a compromise (regarding this article) brokered over many months of discussion. It would be wrong to use this article to praise and exalt Muhammad; it's just as wrong to use it as a venue to attack Muhammad and Islam. Please, show some concern for the overall project of the encyclopedia, rather than using it merely as an arena for Muslim-bashing. Zora 17:13, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Timothy and Pecher, you're misreading the "reliable sources" policy. It says, "An opinion is a view that someone holds, the content of which may or may not be verifiable. However, that a certain person or group holds a certain opinion is a fact, and it may be included in Wikipedia if it can be verified; that is, if you can cite a good source showing that the person or group holds the opinion." OPINIONS, even if you don't agree with them, deserve to be included and presented dispassionately. You and some of the other editors are trying to twist this policy into the very opposite of NPOV. That Muhammad is the "founder" of Islam is also an opinion, based on a belief re the meaning of "founder" as well as beliefs rejecting the Muslim claim to a history for Islam before Muhammad. Zora 18:44, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Timothy, Muslims believe that Muhammad found something old and venerable, something that had been distorted or half-forgotten, cleaned it up, and presented it to the world again. To say that he's a founder is, in Muslim eyes, tantamount to calling him a forger, and dismissing his claims to be "reviving" Islam as lies. To use another analogy (one that I've used earlier) it's as if you said that Isaac Newton "invented" gravity. Scientists believe that he discovered rather than invented gravity.
We're not asking you to accept the Muslim beliefs. I don't share them myself. But we have to treat them in a NPOV manner. Zora 19:10, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
But from "Muslims believe that Muhammad is not the founder of Islam" it does not follow that Muhammad is not the founder of Islam. Editorius 02:00, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
"Muhammad is a major figure in Islam"
Sounds like
"Muhammad is just somebody among many other major figures in Islam".
Well, actually, Muhammad happens to be the major (human) figure in Islam, doesn't he?!
Editorius 02:45, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I've now protected the article per a request by User:Pecher at WP:RfPP. Please use the talk page to discuss possible changes to the article, and once you are able to reach an agreement, drop a note on my talk page or on WP:RfPP to request unprotection. AmiDaniel ( talk) 19:41, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
The word 'figure' is vague and doesn't preclude non-humans. Although it may be obvious to most people what the correct meaning of 'figure' is, comparisons with Christianity or Jesus don't justify using the term here, for the reasons mentioned in the previous section ( different concept of godhead and Jesus). Hence, that's why I think that '...most prominent person...' is better than '...the major figure...'. MP (talk) 19:52, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Last time, this was "solved" by compromising between editors' own opinions, in violation of WP:V and WP:NOR. This time, we should do it the right way, gathering Reliable sources. We can post them in this section as we find them.
Muhammad founded Islam:
Islam existed before Muhammad:
Timothy Usher 01:24, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
One contended sentence was mangled:
should read:
-- tickle me 03:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Some hadith. Hadith are a highly heterogenious body of material, and different scholars accept different hadith as strong or weak. Zora 09:53, 4 June 2006 (UTC)