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The rest of the Intro can go into subsection Etymology to make the intro succint.
-- Tigeroo 13:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
If I were a Muslim, I'd object that God is the central figure in Islam, not Muhammad.-- Editorius 13:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Let's not swallow Szvest's bait!-- Editorius 14:25, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Of course, there are always two (or more) points of view: For example, there are the coffeeists, who claim that the moon is made of coffee, and the non-coffeeists (such as the physicists), who deny that the moon is made of coffee ... -- Editorius 17:13, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
John Esposito in his book "What Everyone Needs to Know About Islam" p. 4-5 writes: As Christians view their revelation as both fulfilling and completing the revelation of the Old Testament, Muslims believe that the Prophet Muhammad received his revelation from God through the angle Gabriel to correct human error that had made its way into the scripture and belief systems of Judaism and Christianity. Therefore Muslims believe that Islam is not a new religion with a new scripture. Far from being the youngest of the major monotheistic world religions, from a Muslim point of view Islam is the oldest because it represents the original as well as the final revelation of the God to Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad. "He established for you the same religion as that which He established for Noah, that which We have sent to you as inspiration through Abraham, Moses and Jesus namely that you should remain steadfast in religion and make no divisions within it" (Quran 42:13)
Therefore "Non-Muslims believe he established the religion of Islam and the Muslim community... Muslims believe him to have been God's ( Allah) last and final prophet of Islam, to whom the Qur'an was revealed." is more accurate but it is better to be clarified even further. -- Aminz 01:35, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I still cannot discern your point clearly. I glimpsed at the article on Jesus, which begins as follows:
Well, this statement is certainly not incorrect. But we cannot simply copy it by writing that Muhammad is the central figure in Islam, since Jesus is religiously central for the Christians in a different sense than Muhammad is for the Muslims, even though in Muslim folklore he is often venerated like a "Übermensch" ("superman"). But from the strict theological point of view, Muhammad is not god-like, and the central figure in Islam is God and nobody else but God. — You're talking about some sort of common "standard", but this cannot mean that always the same formulations should be used, can it?!-- Editorius 14:45, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Could someone write a short summary about the recently placed RfC? Thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:35, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
The article is now 60+ kb, more than the prefered 32 kb. Should we move some of the text in the biography to the sub-articles i created? -- Striver 00:18, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
-- Tigeroo 09:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Having the Islam template placed at the beginning of this article and not in the "Islamic views" section is in violation of NPOV. Doing this asserts that Muhammad is essentially not a stand alone historical figure, but a mythical Islamic figure. At Jesus, the Jesus template is placed at the top of the article, while the Christianity template is placed in the appropriate sub-section. As with Jesus, Muhammad is a historical figure whose historical existence is verified (or at least widely recognized), and thus is viewed upon by non-Islamic religions, as well as secularists. Until a Christianity, Judaism, atheist, and all other beliefs' templates are placed at the top of this article, it is POV to place the Islamic template accordingly. Please view the Talk:Jesus archives for detailed discussion on the Christianity issue. — ` CRAZY` (IN)` SANE` 22:16, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Material from http://experts.about.com/e/m/mu/Muhammad.htm has been used without permission. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BookwormUK ( talk • contribs)
You got to know that it's the opposite. Try this out http://experts.about.com/e/m/mu/Mexico.htm. -- Szvest 02:02, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
No, this is nonsense. Peter Agga
Please do not open this title discussion. This title is considered very offensive and does not show respect towards Islam and also towards Our Beloved Muslim Prophet. — Emrrans 13:15, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
How can you even make a suggestion of something like that? Do some research into a topic before asking absurd questions.-- Aadamh 01:08, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
He was not a homosexual. This is strictly forbidden in Islam. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Smea ( talk • contribs) .
Well, you think that Jesus was a man and nothing else - how's that for showing respect toward our beloved God?
Everyone is either a man (nothing else) or a woman (nothing else). Every human must be grouped into these two categories. As a result, there is absolutely no disrespect towards Jesus by saying he was a man (nothing else).
But there is still disrespect towards christians, since they believe that Jesus was God incarnated. Besides, to say that "everyone is either a man or a women" is to beg the question since christians do not believe this. Similarly muslims do not believe that physics and chemistry is all there is to say about the world - they want to make room for Allah. So if I were to claim that "there is nothing in the world but material things" you, as a muslim, would certainly beg the question against me - as christians would against you.
P.S. He's a prophet of God (nothing else) ( 206.126.82.31 23:39, 14 September 2006 (UTC))
P.P.S. The above is not an argument but an expression of personal subjective belief. Muslims must come to understand that there are no dhimmis in here.
Like you said, it may be strictly forbidden in Islam, but when is Islam going to wake up to the world and get with the 2000's? To call homosexuals sinners is offensive to me as a homosexual. I am a gay Muslim and on my next pilgramage I hope to convert all the poor Muslims still in the closet.
And facts are facts and I just don't know why you deprive everyone of the facts concerning the afterlife and the promises of male sex (if we choose it) in the afterlife? This is absurd to edit this! User:Rainbowjoe
Homosexuality is clearly a sin in the Qur'an. Part of being a Muslim is to follow the Qur'an as well as the authentic Hadith of the Prophet. Since it is clear in the Qur'an that homosexuality is a sin, and that Allah has created men and women so that they may compliment each other, support each other and be together, than it is also clear that there is no such thing as a homosexual Muslim. Therefore, the Prophet could not have been homosexual to anwser the initial question. And to the member who said he is a homosexual Muslim....you are only kidding yourself and have a very limited knowledge of Islam if you believe this to be true. There can be no homosexuality in Islam whatsoever. It is completely not allowable. Also, to say Jesus is simply a man, a prophet of Allah, is no disrespect at all. Muslims have always defended Jesus, even in times when Christians have not, and have given him all the respect in the world, just as Muslims are to show any other prophet of Allah, including Muhammad. Just because we do not believe similarly does not make it disrespectful.
How is the Muhammad article different from every single one of the following articles about important figures from antiquity:
That's right... there's no picture at the top of the page.
As this list shows, moving the picture to the top wouldn't be something that was undertaken just to annoy Muslims; it would simply be in keeping with standard Wikipedia practice. On the other hand, deliberately keeping the images shoved below the fold must only be to avoid annoying certain religious people, which is odd, since we don't give Christians a similar heckler's veto over Evolution, for example. — Chowbok 04:44, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Was Muhammad illiterate? UNSIGNED COMMENT BY User:Peter Agga
That would certainly make sense considering the fact the Quran was originally an oral history.
The Prophet Muhammad was illiterate for 40 years of his life until the Angel Gabriel came to him and granted him the miracle of being able to read. This is one of the miracles of the Qur'an by the way....how an illiterate man could come up with such beautiful text. Arabic was seen as a very poetic language at the time of the Prophet and people often wrote song and poems....and the words of the Qur'an exceeded the words of these often lifetime songwriters and poets by such extreme degrees that just hearing the words often caused people who understand the language to convert to Islam alone.
I'm currently running Firefox v. 1.5.0.6, and the "Timeline for Muhammed" is conflicting with other objects on the page. I've provided a link to a screenshot to give you a better idea of what's happening. http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/2056/screenshotmuhammadrz7.jpg
My resolution is 1440x900 pixels (widescreen monitor). Just thought I'd throw it out there if someone knows how to fix it. Hanzolot 03:10, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
He married Aisha when she was 6, and consummated the marriage when she was 9. TharkunColl 11:47, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, part of the problem, if you're really interested in discussing this, is the (often-cynical) attempt to apply 21st-century European/American social standards to the political and social processes of seventh-century Arabia. If you read the history, you'll find that it was not at all unusual for girls to be betrothed before puberty, and not at all unusual for the marriages to be consummated shortly after the first menses. This culture, in other words, had a different way of defining sexual maturity than yours does. I can understand your discomfort with that, and I celebrate your right to express that discomfort, but I find it a little disingenuous when people who should know better imply, or state outright, that Muhammad (pbuh) was the only one defining female sexual maturity in this way at the time in Arabia. He wasn't. BYT 13:46, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
It is boring to rehash such placative 'monikers' every couple of weeks. I see no intent of real debate here, let alone of improving the article. This has been discussed before, see the archives. Wikipedia is not a discussion forum where people can stop by whenever they feel like discussing the "M was a pedophile" topos. Stick to discussing the actual article, make good-faith suggestions (informed by what has already been discussed, we archive talkpages for a reason!). Changing evolved articles takes some dedication and effort on the part of the editor wishing to introduce the change. just don't bore us by listlessly kicking a dead horse now and again. Comments such as the one at the top of this section should not be considered constructive contributions, and should remain unanswered or even be removed per WP:NOT. (ᛎ) qɐp 16:16, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
As the person who implemented the above-named picture, I'd like to express that I find it's deletion without discussion rather rude. This even more as the picture is deemed "useless" and someone flatly stating that it has "no consensus". In addition, I'm being attacked ad hominem as "a new user" (the point being?) for inserting the image.
What kind of discussion is that? If you want to evaluate the image's worthiness: Fine, go ahead; and best with the image, so that other participants in this discussion can judge for themselves, and without having to search the page history. Is there any compelling reason for pulling the image before a discussion has taken place? Even before it has started? I frankly just don't get it.
To start a discussion concerning the image itself:
-- The Hungry Hun 23:23, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
What does Piss Christ have to do with anything? Piss Christ would add nothing to the Christianity article as it is satirical, purposefully offensive art. The art in question in this debate is Islamic art that depicts an event according to Islamic sources. In that sense, there is no comparison between Piss Christ and Mohammed widmet die Kaaba um. Again, this image adds to the article as millions of images across hundreds of thousands of articles on Wikipedia do. There is no reason why an image should be prohibited from being used because some people find it offensive. Such policies would lead us down a slippery slope. Hence, Wikipedia is not censored. — Aiden 02:15, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Is there any compelling reason for pulling the image before a discussion has taken place? Even before it has started? I frankly just don't get it.
Are you then saying you had no idea that pictorial representations of Muhammed are insulting to most Muslims? I guess so, because if you had known any of this, you would have discussed before adding the picture. You might have read the archives of this page. You might have read the article
Depictions of Muhammad. Please consider that there is much background behind this matter, and that you might have, unintentionally, been rude. Please do go read the archives.
Shenme
02:44, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Shenme, whether Muslims are offended by the picture (or claim to be) is not relevent. There are many things on Wikipedia which a huge number of people, whether Muslim, Christian, atheist, communist, or any faction or group may find offensive. First and foremost, Wikipedia is not censored. The fact that you are offended by relevent content is no reason to remove it. — Aiden 18:23, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Many islamic scolars have tried to portray Mohammad, and as he was a real man me must have had an appearence and appart from offending the sort of people who drive truck bombs into embassys in far off places (and they already hate us) i can't see what harm a portrayal, providing it was from a good source, could do. -- La France 20:18, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I wrote:
Chowbok wrote:
Would editors kindly not edit war over this? As appears to be the case there is not consensus for this change. Normally when that is the case the original version is what remains. Am I wrong? ( → Netscott) 18:41, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I've been waiting several days & none of my arguments has been addressed convincingly. I assume that there is either a consensus to reinsert the picture or a lack of valid, i.e. objective, reasons to do so (the latter is probably true). Therefore, I included the image inside the article again. -- The Hungry Hun 09:44, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
There is no vote here, but, as a white, completly british person, with no islamic links, I'd like to say that I am against placing a picture of Muhammad on Wikipedia.
It is (at the least) a personal taboo of many people, and breaking it by posting a picture here I feel is not a good reason.
Likewise, I would vote against breaking personal taboo's of any people without good reason, for example, posting a created image of one of us having sex with our mothers. If The Hungry Hun and other editors debating for the inclusion of a picture have no such personal taboo's and they are debating from this point of view, I'd be surprised, and open to education by them on how they attained this (in my view) enlightened perspective.
My belief is that "a general averseness to pictures" is a good enough reason, in this situation. --
RickiRich
04:36, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Valarauka(
T/
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05:28, 20 September 2006 (UTC)Oral and written descriptions are readily accepted by all traditions of Islam, while Muslims differ as to whether or not visual depictions of Muhammad are permissible[citation needed]: Some Muslims believe that to prevent idolatry and shirk, or ascribing partners to Allah, visual depictions of Muhammad and other prophets of Islam should be prohibited. Other Muslims believe respectful depictions should be allowed [citation needed]. Both sides have produced Islamic art — the aniconists through calligraphy and arabesque, the pictorialists through book illustration and architectural decoration [citation needed]. Negative portrayal of Muhammad, whether spoken, written, drawn, or filmed, may be taken as a great offense by Muslims, see Muslim veneration for Muhammad.
I have not seen any Muslim scholars that say it is good to represent Muhammad. There might be few black sheep. But if you still want to write above misleading claims. Than provide each line with multiple references please. Otherwise do not make huge claims without giving a single reference. ---- Faisal 18:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Seconded. We keep treating this like a "majority is X, but there is a minority school that holds Y" issue. That's simply not my experience. In Shia literature, I've seen lots of imagery, but ... no Prophet. In Sunni, you see only calligraphy and geometric design inside a masjid, never any living being, and certainly not the Prophet. BYT 18:49, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I copied the lead without even looking at it. If you have an issue with it, go over to Depictions of Muhammad and change it. Once you get your changes accepted, adjust the text here. There is no point in arguing about the same piece of text in two separate places. Faisal, I am not sure if "from Indonesia to Africa" includes Afghanistan, but I hear that devotional images of Muhammad are quite popular there. Reading the text, I agree with BYT insofar as the aniconists should be portrayed as a clear majority. As usual in cases of Islamic demography, it will be impossible to get any reliable statistical data, of course, so "majority" must suffice. (ᛎ) qɐp 19:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
That's not the only issue under discussion, though. BYT 20:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Speaking personally, I don't know that "they" tend to go by what Sistani is saying. Have you got some reason to believe that this is the "default" Shia position? (Not being sarcastic, I've just had very little exposure to Shia practice.) I can tell you that we'd be waving a rather defiant red flag in front of large number of Sunnis ... for the good reason that .... ? BYT 21:18, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I am fairly new to this debate, but as an historian I feel it encumbant on me to make a contribution. Wikepedia is not about censorship - if Muslims feel offended at an historical, accurate and verified portrayal of Muhammed, then that is no part of our concern - after all, we don't take into account whether Nazis might be offended at our portrayal of Hitler. The Hitler article is very fair, and so should be our article about Muhammed - portraying both the positive and the negative opinions about him. TharkunColl 22:56, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Hitler --- Nazis, Muhammad --- Muslims ... Good point with good example is made TharkunColl. Netscott, I will contribute after some more research. Although being a Sunni Muslim, I dislike all the representation of Muhammad but I am not fully aware of Shia view about this. Hence I must do some research before taking part in this discussion. Even if some Shias believe in what you said, things could have been written in much better way than they are written now. --- Faisal 23:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
please try to keep the discussion "what images should we display here" separate from the discussion about the accuracy of the lead of the "Depictions" article. This section discusses the latter (is it fair to say "some Muslims [are aniconists] -- some Muslims [aren't]" when the ratio is 95:5? 92:8? 85:15? (ᛎ) qɐp 23:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
My hunch as a Shi'a is that we should not depict him, nor the Imams. But some people still depict the Imams. There is some internal diputes among Shi'a about the issue of depicting immas, mainly due to the multi-marja system (i guess). But i can't recal any Shi'a depiction of Muhammad (as)... im not 100% of that, but my guess is that no mater the verdict, Shi'a strongly tend to avoid depicting Muhammad, even more than they tend to avoid depicting Ali (as).-- Striver 23:08, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
This may be a level of detail that should be worked out at Talk:Depictions of Muhammad. Then summary style can be used to frame the section here. Right now the section has the Persian miniature of the Miraj. Are there any big objections to that? Tom Harrison Talk 22:01, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, a cursory glance over the above discussions did not reveal to me any form of consensus over the header. So let's either reach that consensus here, or if it has been reached, it will certainly harm no-one to make sure this is clearly defined somewhere under a recognisable title.
BrandonYusufToropov prefers:
'''Muḥammad''' ({{lang-ar|محمد}}; also '''Mohammed''', '''Mahomet''', and other variants),<ref>Mahomet etc.; [[Turkish language|Turkish]]: ''Muhammed''; {{Audio|Ar-muhammad.ogg|click here}} for the Arabic pronunciation</ref> [[570]]-[[632]] <small>CE</small>,<ref>According to traditional Muslim biographers, Muhammad was born c. [[570]] in [[Mecca]] and died [[June 8]] [[632]] in [[Medina]], both in the [[Hejaz]] region of present day [[Saudi Arabia]].</ref> is the pre-eminent [[prophet]] of the religion of [[Islam]] and the leader of the early [[Muslim]] community ([[Ummah]]) at Medina. [[Muslim]]s believe him to have been God's final [[prophets of Islam|prophet]], to whom the [[Qur'an]] was divinely revealed through the [[angel]] [[Gabriel]] as the final revelation to mankind.
Whilst Editorius opts for:
'''Muḥammad''' ({{lang-ar|محمد}}; also '''Mohammed''', '''Mahomet''', and other variants),<ref>Mahomet etc.; [[Turkish language|Turkish]]: ''Muhammed''; {{Audio|Ar-muhammad.ogg|click here}} for the Arabic pronunciation</ref> [[570]]-[[632]] <small>CE</small>,<ref>According to traditional Muslim biographers, Muhammad was born c. [[570]] in [[Mecca]] and died [[June 8]] [[632]] in [[Medina]], both in the [[Hejaz]] region of present day [[Saudi Arabia]].</ref> established the religion of [[Islam]] and the [[Muslim]] community ([[Ummah]]).<ref> This does not mean that Muhammad was the first to propagate the submission to one god (= monotheism). Here, "Islam" and "Muslim" are used in their current meanings, ''not'' in their original Arabic meanings.</ref> [[Muslim]]s believe him to have been God's final [[prophets of Islam|prophet]], to whom the [[Qur'an]] was divinely revealed.
Now, it seems to me that BYT's main complaint is "religion of islam", as within the arab world this would be equivalent to "founder of monotheism". If this is the main problem, then such wordings as "the religion refered to as islam" may be more appropriate. I would suggest to all involved that if there is a disagreement, niether wording is the solution. Let's work on some form of sensible compromise. LinaMishima 17:37, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I prefer BYT's version. BhaiSaab talk 18:43, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I prefer BYT's version too (btw I think User:Tigeroo first introduce this version). For me the word "established" is a problem and footnotes are annoying. -- Faisal 18:58, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Ok, let's try this from another angle: Rather than arguing simply against any one version, please argue for one of the texts this time. And two thoughts. Firstly, perhaps we all need some perspective on this subject. We can easily draw inspiration from similar articles, and Jesus seems to be not too bad. Notice how the christian believes are clearly marked. Secondly, it seems to me that the islamic community do not believe that muhammad founded Islam. Based on the prior example, what about a wording such as "Muslims believe that muhammed was not the founder of islam, but rather..."? LinaMishima 04:44, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Obviously different versions here. Here's what I was referring to:
Encyclopedia Britannica does use it, my error.
My (three-dimensional, not virtual) fifth-edition (1993) Columbia says, (and again I quote:) The name of the Prophet of ISLAM (small caps there indicate a cross-ref) and one of the great figures of history. Could I ask you, once again, Editorius, what specific problem you have with such an approach?
Tharkun (apparently unhappy with the resolution of our discussion of Aisha, above) changes the subject and asks:
Because Mohammedanism is precisely what Muslims reject (and an example of shirk). Did he read the WP article? "The term is considered offensive by many Muslims, who say the words imply that Muhammad is worshipped...'" BYT 15:43, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
"Muslims are incorrect." Hmmm. What else are they incorrect about, and how else could you use the opening of this article to correct them?
I have an idea. Let us try using a similar approach at the opening paragraph of Catholicism first, just to see how it goes: "Catholics claim to venerate, rather than worship, the Virgin Mary, even though they believe in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception." From whose POV would such a sentence issue? Whose agenda would be promoted by putting a central belief of Catholocism under a rhetorical "if you buy that sort of thing" shadow? Those who a) manifest a prejudice against Catholics and b) wish to see that prejudice enshrined in an encylopedia.
Strange way to spend your day. Anyway, give it a try there and let me know what happens. BYT 16:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
To claim that Mohammed didn't found Islam is pure intellectual dishonesty. Yes, I know that Muslims believe that Islam has existed since the beginning of time - just like Scientologists believe all sorts of ridiculous sci-fi rubbish - but that's no reason to take them seriously. We are in the business of reporting truth here. Mohammed founded Islam, and this is an absolute, incontrovertable fact. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar. TharkunColl 17:24, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Faisal, please tell us why you consider the footnote and the verb "establish" inacceptable; and also tell us how you know that usually footnotes aren't read. Editorius 17:30, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Whilst Editorius seemed to use (understandably) a slightly argumentative tone, sadly he did have a very good point on this matter. We should probably establish exactly what each side believe and what sources they are using to support their argument. Please can you all input to the following, in a strictly academic tone. Do not reply to other people's comments, nor be argumentative. SImply answer the questions as best you can, stating your reasoning and whatever sources you are using. Please expain your position simply, as if you were explaining to someone with no knowledge of this subject area at all:
And again, stay calm, just state your belief, why that is the one you hold (explaining any teaching rather than simply citing it) and let's make sure everyone knows what we are looking to work in. LinaMishima 18:57, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
LinaMishima, you are inclined to Editorius since the start and supporting his view on the article. It does not makes him correct or his point valid. --- Faisal 19:17, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
We non-Muslim Wikipedians interested in Islam are accommodating people, aren't we? We always want everything to be to the liking of those Muslims who don't give a damn about Wikipedia's being a non-Islamic encyclopedia, where scientifically ascertained historical facts matter and not fabricated religious myths. So let us all be friends of Islam and rephrase the introductory statement as follows:
Editorius 03:55, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Dear Lina, I have already made a good deal of "serious contributions" (read the relevant discussion pages anew). Editorius 05:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
This is ridiculous...I could easily bring in quotes from the Bible that say similar things and say how evil the Bible is but that would be taking it out of context, just as you are doing now with the Qur'an. People tend to do this all too often, quoting violence alone in the Qur'an as a means to justify their message of how evil it is, when the same can be found in their very own beliefs if looked for. Let's not take things out of context and let's look at things objectively
From http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=establish&x=0&y=0
Establish:
Muhammad's involvement with Islam falls under defintions #4 and #5.
Isn't anyone interested in the proposed merger of Islamic view of Muhammad and Islamic views of Muhammad? For example, in the first one, the section The birthday of Muhammad (Mawlid) says,
Most Muslims celebrate Muhammad's birthday with elaborate festivities. Cities and homes are illuminated with colorful lights and candles, parades and processions are carried out, and conferences on the life of the Prophet are held.
Perhaps because I've only been a Muslim for 25 years, and living in America, I've never been invited to one of these celebrations ( Mawlid lists the dates through 2021), but who am I to contradict the assertion "most" without proof?
Anyway, the stuff in those two articles looks like a Much Better waste of time than this tiresome debate. -- Dennette 18:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I've also never heard of celebrating the Prophet's birthday in Islam being a Muslim all my life. I do not believe Islam promotes the celebration of birthdays in general, including the Prophet's. This is likely only done in certain cultures.
The Muslims believe that their purely ideological, mythological view of history is equal to the one of the scientific historians, who explore history strictly empirically.
If we grant them that there is no substantial difference between religious myths and factual scientific accounts, they have succeeded in Islamizing Wikipedia. Editorius 18:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Even though I said the cup of my willingness to compromise was drained, I just happened to spot one last drop in it.
After having unsuccessfully proposed the formulation "M. promulgated the religion of Islam", I hereby propose the following similar one:
"Muhammad, the man who preached the religion of Islam in the 7th century CE and established the Muslim community (Umma)."
This statement is at least true to the historical facts.
(Just for your information: I still emphatically deny that religious myths are equal to scientific accounts! By "unequal" I do not just mean "incommensurable" but that scientific accounts of history are superior to myths.)
Editorius 18:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Of course, the science of history has the non-trivial empirical problem of finding reliable evidence concerning the past so that the historians' accounts must often remain full of gaps. Of course, mythological accounts do not suffer from any such inevitable methodological complications, since the mythologists hardly care for objective evidence anyway. Their stories happen to be gapless just because they complete them by brazenly fabricating the missing or desired facts. Scientific historians are more honest: when there is not enough evidence, they openly admit it. Editorius 19:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
To be quite honest, I agree with you there. but it's policy here to use 'soft security', and to 'reach concensus'. I strongly suspect that our friend Editorius will not simply stop editing if we decide, without their involvement, that consensus suggests the version before their changes (which, to be frank, it does, and the reasoning behind it makes sense). This is why I am trying to get Editorius to explain exactly their view point, which allows us to consider any valid points there may be (so far I've seen a lot of shouting, and little exact points with reasing and references); and to get those arguing against Editorius to explain their position in a form that Editorius can understand. In theory this either leads to further warnings of incivility, or a means being found to mesh these points (which we are but a short distance off doing, from what I can tell). I'm sure that Editorius does want to reach a solution that everybody's happy with really (well, we have to assume good faith, don't we?). Sadly such mediation is all there is to offer before such nasty and bitter extremes as RfC and ArbCon :( LinaMishima 19:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
prophet • noun (fem. prophetess) 1 an inspired teacher or proclaimer of the will of God. 2 a person who predicts the future. 3 a person who advocates a new belief or theory.
proph·et (prŏf'ĭt) pronunciation n. 1. A person who speaks by divine inspiration or as the interpreter through whom the will of a god is expressed. 2. A person gifted with profound moral insight and exceptional powers of expression. 3. A predictor; a soothsayer. 4. The chief spokesperson of a movement or cause. 5. 1. Prophets (used with a sing. or pl. verb) The second of the three divisions of the Hebrew Scriptures, comprising the books of Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the Twelve. Used with the. 2. Prophet One of the prophets mentioned in the Bible, especially one believed to be the author of one of these books. Used with the. 6. Prophet Islam. Muhammad. Used with the.
It appears User:FayssalF has locked the page due to the edit war. While I have no problem with this, I am concerned about the specific administrator who locked the page. The page lock states, "Protection is not an endorsement of the current page version." However, FayssalF himself was involved in the revert war, reverting at least twice from the previous consensus version. And rather than locking the page outright, he reverted once more to his desired version before full-protecting the page. I think this is a clear endorsement of a version and a sad expression of the cabalistic way in which this article is controlled/censored. — Aiden 14:54, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
LinaMishima, see Talk:Muhammad/archive_7#Compromise.3F and Talk:Muhammad/archive_7#Can_we_vote_yet.3F. FayssalF, I think you know policy dictates that admins involved in an article, much less an edit war on an article, should not be locking that same page. Secondly, your reverts were in no way reverts of vandalism. Simply because an IP edits the article and you disagree with it does not make it vandalism, nor does it automatically mean that user a sockpuppet. Thirdly, on your talk page, you were quite rude and dismissive to this user, who raised very valid points. Considering the number of revert wars you yourself have been involved in here, you should not be using your administrative capabilities on this article. Finally, I think it is quite clear that your rollback and lock did in fact amount to an endorsement of a version. Again, completely unethical. — Aiden 20:22, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Aiden, I fully agree with you that Fayssal's modus operandi is suspect, to put it mildly. Editorius 13:41, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Reading back accross prior discussion and archive 7 (still reading it), I am noticing a few things:
More thoughts later as I continue to read. LinaMishima 17:27, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Not quite so well said. Here's BrandonYusufToropov's formulation:
This is the kind of formulation one finds in Islamic dictionaries and encyclopedias, which suggests that Muhammad is in no way the originator of the Islamic religion but merely a non-creative "messenger". According to Islamic mythology, which anachronistically Islamizes the entire pre-Muhammadian history of monotheistic religion for purely ideological reasons, there is a pre-Muhammadian era of Islam. According to the myth, the religion of Islam did not originate with Muhammad, who is merely considered the historically last medium ("seal of the prophets") through which the eternal Quranic message was conveyed to the people. According to the myth, the history of Islam begins with Adam and Eve, and not with Muhammad.
Here's my comment on the equivocation on "Islam": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Muhammad/archive_7#Primordial_Islam.3F
Wellywell, so let both sides have their say. New formulation:
"According to scientific historiography, Muhammad is the founder of the Islamic religion; according to Islamic mythology, Muhammad is not the founder of Islam but only God's final prophet in a series of prophets preceding him, who all convey essentially the same eternal divine message to mankind."
Editorius 17:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I might only accept something that presents two sides view clearly. like
Muslims believe that Muhammad is the last and most important Prophet of religion Islam and .... and non-Muslim think him as ... The Muslim believe must come first than non-Muslims because that is more related to Muhammad. Furthermore, one can skip non-Muslim view in case it is just opposite to Muslims view. ---
Faisal
18:34, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Faisal, there is one basic thing you misunderstand: It's not non-Muslim view vs. Muslim view but scientific view vs. mythical view. Editorius 19:39, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Aiden, again I fully agree with you. From the objective point of view, your formulation is doubtless impeccable. We know that Muhammad founded the Islamic religion, and nobody except for the Muslim dogmatists denies this historical fact. Some of the Muslim Wikipedians want to make us believe that this is a debate between the Muslim worldview and the non-Muslim worldview(s). But actually, it is a debate between the objective historical perspective and the ideological Islamic perspective, the latter of which is mythological by nature. Editorius 02:45, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Quoting Encyclopedia of Islam (EoI) which is an academic secular source:"Still Muhammad was not thinking any more than before of founding a new religion, but only of restoring the true religion proclaimed by the prophets from the beginning. On this point a distinction needs to be made between religious beliefs and later theological formulations on the one hand, and the conclusions reached by modern historical and sociological research. For instance, in traditional Muslim belief Muhammad is the “last and greatest of the prophets ” , a concept that is most likely based on a later interpretation of the expression “ seal of the prophets ” ( khatam al-nabiyyin) that is applied to Muhammad in sura XXXIII, 40. Also, he is regarded not as a “ founder ” but as one who confirmed and restored the true, ancient monotheist faith that was established by the prophet Abraham. It should not be surprising that it was at the very time when these concepts were being proclaimed by the Qur'an, during the early years after the Hijra, that historians see the emergence of a new religious community and tradition founded by Muhammad, a man of extraordinary perception and skills." -- Aminz 02:35, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
THUS, Editorius who calls Islamic religious beliefs and theological formulations, Islamic mythology should take note of how the reliable sources he supposedly supports deal with this issue.
My POV is that this point should be made clear in the article as these academic sources do. Thus I do not support suggestions that do not write it as "Islamic religious beliefs and theological formulations say X and modern historical and sociological research say Y". -- Aminz 02:35, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Aiden, Thanks for your comment. I am afraid I can not agree since 1. Jesus being the "central figure of Christianity" does not contradict Jesus being God incarnate. But Muhammad having founded Islam does contradict Muslim belief. 2. As you said, we must make sure that the article as a whole, and in individual parts, does not convey this view was fact per WP:NPOV.
Here is my suggestion:
-- Aminz 05:07, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
No mention of founder, founding etc. as is being attempted to be inserted here, nor of a refuting non-christian views or "historical non-mythical views" that does not beleive in his godhood to NPOV the intro. Others do regard him as the founder of christianity, his being a jew is irrelevant because his teachings led to a new religious tradition in the same sense of Muhammad. A huge part of the world is not christian either and makes the connection of "founders" as Jesus = Christianity, Moses = Judaism, Muhammad = Islam on the precept of source of teachings = founder. Personally I care a whit about the term founder or what not, as I have stated earlier, before even beginning to edit in this conflict.
A clear distinction needs to be drawn between "Islam"'s reference to the Islamic religion and "Islam"'s reference to strict monotheism in general. In the English-speaking world (and elsewhere) "Islam" definitely and indubitably refers only to the former. What is the Islamic religion? — It's the monotheistic religious system of Muslims founded in Arabia in the 7th century and based on the teachings of Muhammad as laid down in the Koran. This particular religious system is not identical to other monotheistic systems such as Judaism and Christianity, even though there are similarities between them. To say that the Islamic religion existed before Muhammad is sheer historical nonsense, whereas it's certainly no nonsense to say that there is a pre-Muhammadian history of (strict) monotheism. — Editorius 21:01, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Can everyone please make a proposal. My question is that why do we need to start with the founder sentence. Encyclopedia of Islam writes: "That Muhammad was one of the greatest persons in world history in terms of the global impact of the movement he founded cannot be seriously questioned. How did his extraordinary success occur? One answer is theological: God chose Muhammad as His Prophet and was directly responsible for his triumph over polytheism and evil. Another is based on historical and other empirical evidence: Muhammad had remarkable leadership skills and a charismatic personality that enabled him to attract other strong leaders who were firmly committed to him, and together they were responsible for the early success of the Muslim community."
THUS, I suggest this:
Muhammad was one of the greatest persons in world history in terms of the global impact he had. Muhammad is, from an academic historical and sociological standpoint, the founder of Islam. According to the Muslim theological formulations Muhammad was however not a founder of Islam but the last prophet of God who confirmed and restored the original monotheist faith, i.e. Islam, which was established by Abraham.
How is that? -- Aminz 23:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
That won't fly because its glorifies Muhammad, and can still be made simpler and clearer. Here is a variation on the current intro, which is less ambigious and creates a clear and direct linkage between Muhammad and Islam, while avoiding the term founded.
Ideally the first sentence and the first half of the second sentence should be merged. It still partially repeates itself but is simpler, directer and less convoluted than Aminz proposal. It's still awkward to read but it should set a new direction in which to improve and should solve the non-issue by being more direct in the association of Muhammad and Islam as a distinct social community and addressing the concerns of those who associate Islam as a philosophical or spiritual progression. Reference to the term Ummah has been removed as it extends into a secondary tangent. -- Tigeroo 01:52, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Tigeroo, yours is a kind of formulation I could live with. But I'd rather replace the first "prophet" with "man":
That should suffice. — Editorius 14:22, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Spare us further verbal cramps! According to the American Heritage Dict. "prophet" means "a person who speaks by divine inspiration or as the interpreter through whom the will of a god is expressed". The problem is that there is a semantic difference between "real prophet" and "alleged prophet". To write that "Muhammad is the prophet ..." too strongly connotes "Muhammad is the real prophet ...", while for atheists he certainly is just an alleged or "so-called" prophet. For this reason the simple noun "man" is preferable to "prophet". And I don't think Muslims find calling Muhammad a man objectionable. — Editorius 15:59, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
"Muhammad is the final prophet of god within the religion of Islam. Muslims beleive that their primary religious text, the Quran was revealed to him through the agency of the angel Gabriel. He established Islam as the primary religion of a unified state upon the Arabian peninsula."
New version, incorporating his historical significance, alongside his religious significance. Clarifications, primary because other religions still existed at this point, Islam alongside the mention of the state because this was the ideology that bound the new state under him. Religious relevance before historical relevance, because one led to the other, and also thats the historically progression. (unsigned comments by Tigeroo)
"Muhammad is the final prophet of god within the religion of Islam. Muslims beleive that their primary religious text, the Quran was revealed to him through the angel Gabriel. He conveyed Islam as the religion for humanity." Here is mine version it is not final. You can add anything by saying non-Muslim say that.... The above definition specifies "Arabian peninsula" that may lead to believe that Islam is limited to a specific area only and no person outside that area was Muslim at Muhammad era. --- Faisal 17:48, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Tigeroo's latest version is very good. Perhaps we could address some of Faisal's concerns by using the following "Muhammad is the final prophet of god within the religion of Islam. Muslims beleive that their primary religious text, the Quran was revealed to him through the agency of the angel Gabriel. He established Islam as the primary religion of a unified state upon the Arabian peninsula, which has since became one of the dominant religions of the world". The end I'm suggesting would need a reference, I suspect, but it's true. the initial wordform is neat, and both makes the "within Islam" point and the whole bit about being a prophet (which people not so hot on this term can take solstice in the fact this means he's official listed up with Nostradamus and Merlin - no offense, of course). LinaMishima 01:20, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
hey all.. sorry for crashing in! i would just like to note that it is telling that the EoI totally avoids the issue initally about whether or not he "founded" Islam (as Aminz describes above) until several thousand words later where they then discuss the issue. i think Tigeroo's latest version is very good. perhaps a slight tweak to the last sentence: "He established Islam as the primary(better word "dominant"?) religion in the Arabian peninsula, under a unified state which would spread beyond these boundaries." or something along those lines? ITAQALLAH 07:55, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
"Muhammad is the final prophet of god within the religion of Islam. Muslims beleive that their primary religious text, the Quran was revealed to him through the agency of the angel Gabriel. He has conveyed Islam as the religion for whole humanity, which has since became one of the dominant religions of the world [5]" I am even happy with the change done by LinaMishima (thanks) but above might bit better. I have copied a reference form Islam page that say Islam is second largest religion of the world and majority is non-Arab (Arab are less than 25 percent or so). Although the intro is now looking very good and most of the Muslims will be happy with it but I am afraid that Editorius and Aiden might not be happy. --- Faisal 09:25, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
We are going round in circles now. Many of the editors still fail to address the historical viewpoint that Muhammad founded a new religion. Please see any mainstream encyclopedia for information on the historical view. While both views need to be represented, it should be noted that about 5 of the world 6 billion people are not Muslim and thus may not believe the Muslim view that Islam has "existed forever". Thus, it will continue to be a violation of WP:NPOV unless the intro specifically states both viewpoints.
This is how I believe the entire introduction should read. — Aiden 01:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
My sources are EoI: "While the theologian and other believers seek to understand the role of God acting through the Prophet, the historian seeks the measure of the man himself. The theological answer is obvious and indisputable for the believer, but, if taken alone as the explanation of the Prophet's success, it runs the risk of diminishing Muhammad's greatness as a man by making him a mere agent of divine action. The purpose of the first section of this article is to seek the historical Muhammad."
-- Aminz 01:55, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Acceptable version that incorporates founder and contextualizes both founder and prophet, also correcting some information.-- Tigeroo 14:51, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
How about the following formulation, which is based on Aiden's good one:
This should really suffice. (By the way, to write "Koran" in English with "Qu" or even with "Qu"+apostrophe is needless.) Editorius 15:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Or, to put it slightly more precisely:
Editorius 15:46, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
This formulation, which is fortunately free from stupid weasel words, should really be perfectly agreeable to both Muslims and non-Muslims. — Editorius 15:55, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
BYT, what is clear to me is that you're not at all willing to compromise. Talking about "consensus", wasn't it you who repeatedly deleted the previous version high-handedly !?! And as regards "the obsession" with founder, what I'm actually obsessed with is truth, whereas it seems to me that what you're obsessed with is not truth but ideology. — I defy you to state a non-ideological reason why the "Aiden-Editorius formulation" shouldn't be deemed fully agreeable, generally and particularly in a non-Islamic encyclopedia such as Wikipedia!!! — Editorius 18:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Tigeroo, let me remind you of the fact that the readers of encyclopedias expect the initial sentence of an entry to be as concise as possible. — Editorius 18:47, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but there's already been much too much senseless verbal meandering here. I really fail to understand why you still don't simply accept the "Aiden-Editorius formulation" above, which explicitly states (it's no longer mentioned in a footnote!) that within Islam Muhammad is not regarded as a founder. What else you do want?! Tell me, and be honest! — Editorius 23:52, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
And don't overlook that we've been arguing here ad nauseam only over the very first sentence and not the entire entry, which consists of many further sentences! — Editorius 23:57, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
No additional "clarifications" are needed! — Spell the word "concise"! — What you seem to have forgotten is that this encyclopedia entry is titled "Muhammad" and not "Scientific Historiography vs. Theological Historiography". — There are two simple things everybody ought to learn first about Muhammad:
That's it, and it is no bloody doubt in accordance with the "NOPV policy"! The Aiden-Editorius formulation mentions both (1) and (2). — Editorius 00:50, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Don't you two (and some others) ever get bored by your own idle chatter?! — Editorius 04:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
As much as you do Editorius. The word Islam has an spectrum of meanings withing Qur'an. The problem really arises when we see the Qur'an using the word "Islam" and "Muslim" in different meanings in different places (Honestly, it makes me feel crazy with I remember those verses and read the sentence that Muhammad founded Islam). And for the record, it is not actually only the word "Islam": Another example of such confusion is the word "Salat" (prayer). Is "salat" what Muslims pray 5 times a day? If so, then how can Qur'an speak of those who are always in prayer? Similar to the word "Muslim", "Salat" is sometimes used to refer to something which is not the formal prayer. I can list many more examples: "Tasbih" (praising) and "Mumin" (believer), etc. etc. I think the words have some external symbolic meaning and some internal spritual meanings. You can not push your definition of Islam or Salat in wikipedia. -- Aminz 04:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Aminz, once again, this entry's title is not "The Koranic meanings of Islam" but "Muhammad". You've never read the footnote to the introductory statement that was deleted by you and your friends, did you?! The only thing that is relevant here is the current meaning of "Islam" in the English language and not its original (etymological) meaning(s) in Arabic. What is more, you also seem to have overlooked that I consciously substituted "the Islamic religion" for "Islam" in Aiden's original formulation, hoping that it is then clear enough that what is referred to is the entire religious system called "Islam" and not simply monotheism. — Editorius 12:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Tigeroo, as regards the noun phrase "the last prophet", let me stress that Aiden+I actually use it in our formulation:
This implies neither that he is the first prophet of Islam nor that he is the only one! — Editorius 12:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Come on, I beg you, it's really time for you all to step out of your smokescreen! — Editorius 12:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I want to rephrase our formulation slightly as follows:
There is a difference between religion (theology proper) and the science of religion, for the latter objectively studies a religion without affirming its faith. That is, the science of religion, as any other science, is characterized by methodological nontheism. Needless to mention that theology as such is not a science — neither is philosophy by the way. Of course, there are lots of academic theologians who also work in the field of the science of religion (= sociology of religion + psychology of religion + history of religion). Many of those actually do happen to hold the faith of the religion they're studying; but as scientists of religion they must not employ the methodology of dogmatics but only the (empiristic-nontheistic) methodology of science [*. Anyway, this meta-discussion need not be mirrored by the initial sentence, whose sole function is to provide the reader quickly and concisely with the most relevant core information about who Muhammad is/was. The rest is contained in the sentences following the initial one! [* This is certainly problematic for the theologians, since as scientists of religion they might discover facts about the religion they adhere to which contradict or even clearly disprove its dogmas and myths previously taken for granted.] — Editorius 14:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Lina, there is no such thing as a science of God. The theologians know nothing, not even whether their subject matter exists. As regards its theoretical part, theology is metaphysical speculation. Don't take me wrong, I don't mind metaphysical speculation at all, but its purely a priori reasoning cannot be justifiably called "scientific".
Editorius 13:07, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Aminz, there already is an entry on the science of religion (German "Religionswissenschaft"):
(This entry has some weak spots, but those do not matter here.)
As regards the etymology and the definition(s) of "Islam", there is no need to place such a link in the initial sentence. The link to the entry on Islam, where those linguistic aspects should be explained, is sufficient. And generally, "overlinked" sentences look awful! — Editorius 13:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Lina, you enjoy misreading my words, don't you?! :-( — Editorius 14:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
How about this:
-- Aminz 22:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Aminz, the link to the entry on Islam in the previous sentence is really sufficient. There already is an information overload! — Editorius 22:56, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
The whole problem here is that the intro is not spacy enough. My suggestion is to avoid controversial issues in the intro but to have them linked to other sections of the article. We will never reach to any consensus. -- Aminz 04:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Aiden's introduction is more than fair and conciliatory towards all but the most extremist views, which unfortunately seem to have made their religious agenda known on wikipedia's Muhammad page, and almost appears to be a coordinated effort. I would like to point to other pages of other religions Mary Baker Eddy Joseph Smith Jr. Charles Taze Russell, all of which are called 'founders'. I think that the distinction needs to be made between a doctrinal argument and what is stating clear, objective (and by now widely accepted) fact. Also, compromise should not lead to accepting their apparent single-minded fundamentalist goal of editing everything to conform to their world view, to the point that there can't even be a historical picture of Muhammad. Carried to it's logical conclusion, images of the Sistine Chapel would be unacceptable. I think that it needs to be noted that there is a difference between 'collaborative' effort and 'tactic'. One tactic seems to be disagreeing on the meaning and 'connotation' of words specifically to entangle, delay and continue the argument. Especially when there is no subsequent suggestion other than rejecting everything out of hand. Thus turning this 'collaborative' effort into an 'exercise of futility'. Many of the arguments made on this talk page are ridiculous, and it is unfortunate that editors have to give them credence by participating in them. It is clear to me that some users want to export their culture of ideological censorship and revisionism to wikipedia. Nodekeeper 22:18, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
-- Tigeroo 10:24, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Nodkeeper I dont know you mean to say "campaign." Several things that are wrong with your statement, 1 Islam exists since Adam (p.b.u.h.) with no change, only those who change it come up with something else that is close but not the same (Christian and jewishness) 2 Qur’an does not come from prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h.) but writen by Allah (God), someone told you something wrong here 3 Muhammad (p.b.u.h.) is to emulation because he followed Allah in everything he does in life, no wrong step or shirk because Allah guided him. 4 You do not know or anyone else know what prophet looks like or have picture of him so please do not lie and put a picture 5 why should nonmuslim write part of article on Muslim prophet?? LionofTruth˜˜˜˜
Also I don't have to assume good faith in the face of personal attacks, or demonstrated states as such as used in your edit summary. -- Tigeroo 06:47, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Faisal, it makes me sad to learn you're not happy. Is there anything we cursed unbelievers can do to make the Muslim in you happy again? — I guess definitions such as the following ones will cheer you up:
Just wanted to say: Thanks for nothing! — Editorius 14:22, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I believe Tigeroo has repeatedly stated my position far better than I could ever do. They have found real references arguing against the term "founder", and have seemingly understood the issue with contempory accounts. I am quite happy with Tigeroo's revisions. I am also quite pleased to see Editorius use references to support their stance, which is a welcome development. Matters are distinctly not helped by those who are keen on a 'founder' formulation apparently assuming a religious bias, rather than simply a disagreement with the term. There is a compromise hiding here, but the lack of detail on the muslim history article isn't helping me find when his teachings began to be viewed as a separate religion rather than a sect. Indeed, that article highlights that it was his statesmanship and abilities as a military leader that apparently had the greatest of effects to early islam. LinaMishima 16:00, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Here's another short quotation from an eminent scholar, Bernard Lewis:
Editorius 18:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Editorius, There are many other sources who make this founder attribution clear. I again re-state my suggestion:
-- Aminz 22:25, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Aminz, I really appreciate your support for "the Aiden-Editorius formulation"; but your addition in brackets is completely misplaced in an encyclopedia's initial sentence. — Editorius 00:09, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Another suggestion:
-- Aminz 01:26, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Tigeroo, what is "[Muhammad] is not anything from the standpoint of the science of religion" supposed to mean. From this standpoint Muhammad actually is something, namely, the founder of Islam, in the following sense: If Muhammad had not existed, the religious system known as "Islam" would not exist. — Editorius 16:31, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I wanted to add this to the section but it was protected.
Slavery existed in all the ancient civilizations of Asia, Africa, Europe, and pre-Columbian America and had been accepted and even endorsed by Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, as well as other religions of the world, Lewis states. Lewis however states that Islam brought two major changes to ancient slavery 'which were to have far-reaching effects. One of these was the presumption of freedom; the other, the ban on the enslavement of free persons except in strictly defined circumstances.' The position of the Arabian slave was "enormously improved": The Arabian slave 'was now no longer merely a chattel but was also a human being with a certain religious and hence a social status and with certain quasi-legal rights.' The practice of slavery in the Islamic empire represented a 'vast improvement on that inherited from antiquity, from Rome, and from Byzantium.' [39]
I suggest having sub-sections within the "Muhammad the reformer" section. -- Aminz 22:25, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
- John L Esposito in Islam: The Straight Path p. 79 writes:
"Much of Qur'an's reforms consists of regulations or moral guidance that limit or redefine rather than prohibit or replace existing practices. Slavery and women's status are two striking examples. Although slavery was not abolished, slave owners were encouraged to emancipate their slaves, to permit them to earn their freedom, and to "give them some of God's wealth which He has given you" (24:33). Forcing female slaves into prostitution was condemned. Women and the family were subjects of more wide-ranging reforms affecting marriage, divorce, and inheritance. Marriage was a contract, with women entitled to their dower (4:4). Polygamy was restricted (4:3), men were commanded to treat their wives fairly and equally (4:129). Women were given inheritance rights in a patriarchal society that had previously restricted inheritance to male relatives.
-- Aminz 22:28, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | → | Archive 15 |
The rest of the Intro can go into subsection Etymology to make the intro succint.
-- Tigeroo 13:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
If I were a Muslim, I'd object that God is the central figure in Islam, not Muhammad.-- Editorius 13:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Let's not swallow Szvest's bait!-- Editorius 14:25, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Of course, there are always two (or more) points of view: For example, there are the coffeeists, who claim that the moon is made of coffee, and the non-coffeeists (such as the physicists), who deny that the moon is made of coffee ... -- Editorius 17:13, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
John Esposito in his book "What Everyone Needs to Know About Islam" p. 4-5 writes: As Christians view their revelation as both fulfilling and completing the revelation of the Old Testament, Muslims believe that the Prophet Muhammad received his revelation from God through the angle Gabriel to correct human error that had made its way into the scripture and belief systems of Judaism and Christianity. Therefore Muslims believe that Islam is not a new religion with a new scripture. Far from being the youngest of the major monotheistic world religions, from a Muslim point of view Islam is the oldest because it represents the original as well as the final revelation of the God to Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad. "He established for you the same religion as that which He established for Noah, that which We have sent to you as inspiration through Abraham, Moses and Jesus namely that you should remain steadfast in religion and make no divisions within it" (Quran 42:13)
Therefore "Non-Muslims believe he established the religion of Islam and the Muslim community... Muslims believe him to have been God's ( Allah) last and final prophet of Islam, to whom the Qur'an was revealed." is more accurate but it is better to be clarified even further. -- Aminz 01:35, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I still cannot discern your point clearly. I glimpsed at the article on Jesus, which begins as follows:
Well, this statement is certainly not incorrect. But we cannot simply copy it by writing that Muhammad is the central figure in Islam, since Jesus is religiously central for the Christians in a different sense than Muhammad is for the Muslims, even though in Muslim folklore he is often venerated like a "Übermensch" ("superman"). But from the strict theological point of view, Muhammad is not god-like, and the central figure in Islam is God and nobody else but God. — You're talking about some sort of common "standard", but this cannot mean that always the same formulations should be used, can it?!-- Editorius 14:45, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Could someone write a short summary about the recently placed RfC? Thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:35, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
The article is now 60+ kb, more than the prefered 32 kb. Should we move some of the text in the biography to the sub-articles i created? -- Striver 00:18, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
-- Tigeroo 09:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Having the Islam template placed at the beginning of this article and not in the "Islamic views" section is in violation of NPOV. Doing this asserts that Muhammad is essentially not a stand alone historical figure, but a mythical Islamic figure. At Jesus, the Jesus template is placed at the top of the article, while the Christianity template is placed in the appropriate sub-section. As with Jesus, Muhammad is a historical figure whose historical existence is verified (or at least widely recognized), and thus is viewed upon by non-Islamic religions, as well as secularists. Until a Christianity, Judaism, atheist, and all other beliefs' templates are placed at the top of this article, it is POV to place the Islamic template accordingly. Please view the Talk:Jesus archives for detailed discussion on the Christianity issue. — ` CRAZY` (IN)` SANE` 22:16, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Material from http://experts.about.com/e/m/mu/Muhammad.htm has been used without permission. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BookwormUK ( talk • contribs)
You got to know that it's the opposite. Try this out http://experts.about.com/e/m/mu/Mexico.htm. -- Szvest 02:02, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
No, this is nonsense. Peter Agga
Please do not open this title discussion. This title is considered very offensive and does not show respect towards Islam and also towards Our Beloved Muslim Prophet. — Emrrans 13:15, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
How can you even make a suggestion of something like that? Do some research into a topic before asking absurd questions.-- Aadamh 01:08, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
He was not a homosexual. This is strictly forbidden in Islam. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Smea ( talk • contribs) .
Well, you think that Jesus was a man and nothing else - how's that for showing respect toward our beloved God?
Everyone is either a man (nothing else) or a woman (nothing else). Every human must be grouped into these two categories. As a result, there is absolutely no disrespect towards Jesus by saying he was a man (nothing else).
But there is still disrespect towards christians, since they believe that Jesus was God incarnated. Besides, to say that "everyone is either a man or a women" is to beg the question since christians do not believe this. Similarly muslims do not believe that physics and chemistry is all there is to say about the world - they want to make room for Allah. So if I were to claim that "there is nothing in the world but material things" you, as a muslim, would certainly beg the question against me - as christians would against you.
P.S. He's a prophet of God (nothing else) ( 206.126.82.31 23:39, 14 September 2006 (UTC))
P.P.S. The above is not an argument but an expression of personal subjective belief. Muslims must come to understand that there are no dhimmis in here.
Like you said, it may be strictly forbidden in Islam, but when is Islam going to wake up to the world and get with the 2000's? To call homosexuals sinners is offensive to me as a homosexual. I am a gay Muslim and on my next pilgramage I hope to convert all the poor Muslims still in the closet.
And facts are facts and I just don't know why you deprive everyone of the facts concerning the afterlife and the promises of male sex (if we choose it) in the afterlife? This is absurd to edit this! User:Rainbowjoe
Homosexuality is clearly a sin in the Qur'an. Part of being a Muslim is to follow the Qur'an as well as the authentic Hadith of the Prophet. Since it is clear in the Qur'an that homosexuality is a sin, and that Allah has created men and women so that they may compliment each other, support each other and be together, than it is also clear that there is no such thing as a homosexual Muslim. Therefore, the Prophet could not have been homosexual to anwser the initial question. And to the member who said he is a homosexual Muslim....you are only kidding yourself and have a very limited knowledge of Islam if you believe this to be true. There can be no homosexuality in Islam whatsoever. It is completely not allowable. Also, to say Jesus is simply a man, a prophet of Allah, is no disrespect at all. Muslims have always defended Jesus, even in times when Christians have not, and have given him all the respect in the world, just as Muslims are to show any other prophet of Allah, including Muhammad. Just because we do not believe similarly does not make it disrespectful.
How is the Muhammad article different from every single one of the following articles about important figures from antiquity:
That's right... there's no picture at the top of the page.
As this list shows, moving the picture to the top wouldn't be something that was undertaken just to annoy Muslims; it would simply be in keeping with standard Wikipedia practice. On the other hand, deliberately keeping the images shoved below the fold must only be to avoid annoying certain religious people, which is odd, since we don't give Christians a similar heckler's veto over Evolution, for example. — Chowbok 04:44, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Was Muhammad illiterate? UNSIGNED COMMENT BY User:Peter Agga
That would certainly make sense considering the fact the Quran was originally an oral history.
The Prophet Muhammad was illiterate for 40 years of his life until the Angel Gabriel came to him and granted him the miracle of being able to read. This is one of the miracles of the Qur'an by the way....how an illiterate man could come up with such beautiful text. Arabic was seen as a very poetic language at the time of the Prophet and people often wrote song and poems....and the words of the Qur'an exceeded the words of these often lifetime songwriters and poets by such extreme degrees that just hearing the words often caused people who understand the language to convert to Islam alone.
I'm currently running Firefox v. 1.5.0.6, and the "Timeline for Muhammed" is conflicting with other objects on the page. I've provided a link to a screenshot to give you a better idea of what's happening. http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/2056/screenshotmuhammadrz7.jpg
My resolution is 1440x900 pixels (widescreen monitor). Just thought I'd throw it out there if someone knows how to fix it. Hanzolot 03:10, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
He married Aisha when she was 6, and consummated the marriage when she was 9. TharkunColl 11:47, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, part of the problem, if you're really interested in discussing this, is the (often-cynical) attempt to apply 21st-century European/American social standards to the political and social processes of seventh-century Arabia. If you read the history, you'll find that it was not at all unusual for girls to be betrothed before puberty, and not at all unusual for the marriages to be consummated shortly after the first menses. This culture, in other words, had a different way of defining sexual maturity than yours does. I can understand your discomfort with that, and I celebrate your right to express that discomfort, but I find it a little disingenuous when people who should know better imply, or state outright, that Muhammad (pbuh) was the only one defining female sexual maturity in this way at the time in Arabia. He wasn't. BYT 13:46, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
It is boring to rehash such placative 'monikers' every couple of weeks. I see no intent of real debate here, let alone of improving the article. This has been discussed before, see the archives. Wikipedia is not a discussion forum where people can stop by whenever they feel like discussing the "M was a pedophile" topos. Stick to discussing the actual article, make good-faith suggestions (informed by what has already been discussed, we archive talkpages for a reason!). Changing evolved articles takes some dedication and effort on the part of the editor wishing to introduce the change. just don't bore us by listlessly kicking a dead horse now and again. Comments such as the one at the top of this section should not be considered constructive contributions, and should remain unanswered or even be removed per WP:NOT. (ᛎ) qɐp 16:16, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
As the person who implemented the above-named picture, I'd like to express that I find it's deletion without discussion rather rude. This even more as the picture is deemed "useless" and someone flatly stating that it has "no consensus". In addition, I'm being attacked ad hominem as "a new user" (the point being?) for inserting the image.
What kind of discussion is that? If you want to evaluate the image's worthiness: Fine, go ahead; and best with the image, so that other participants in this discussion can judge for themselves, and without having to search the page history. Is there any compelling reason for pulling the image before a discussion has taken place? Even before it has started? I frankly just don't get it.
To start a discussion concerning the image itself:
-- The Hungry Hun 23:23, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
What does Piss Christ have to do with anything? Piss Christ would add nothing to the Christianity article as it is satirical, purposefully offensive art. The art in question in this debate is Islamic art that depicts an event according to Islamic sources. In that sense, there is no comparison between Piss Christ and Mohammed widmet die Kaaba um. Again, this image adds to the article as millions of images across hundreds of thousands of articles on Wikipedia do. There is no reason why an image should be prohibited from being used because some people find it offensive. Such policies would lead us down a slippery slope. Hence, Wikipedia is not censored. — Aiden 02:15, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Is there any compelling reason for pulling the image before a discussion has taken place? Even before it has started? I frankly just don't get it.
Are you then saying you had no idea that pictorial representations of Muhammed are insulting to most Muslims? I guess so, because if you had known any of this, you would have discussed before adding the picture. You might have read the archives of this page. You might have read the article
Depictions of Muhammad. Please consider that there is much background behind this matter, and that you might have, unintentionally, been rude. Please do go read the archives.
Shenme
02:44, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Shenme, whether Muslims are offended by the picture (or claim to be) is not relevent. There are many things on Wikipedia which a huge number of people, whether Muslim, Christian, atheist, communist, or any faction or group may find offensive. First and foremost, Wikipedia is not censored. The fact that you are offended by relevent content is no reason to remove it. — Aiden 18:23, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Many islamic scolars have tried to portray Mohammad, and as he was a real man me must have had an appearence and appart from offending the sort of people who drive truck bombs into embassys in far off places (and they already hate us) i can't see what harm a portrayal, providing it was from a good source, could do. -- La France 20:18, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I wrote:
Chowbok wrote:
Would editors kindly not edit war over this? As appears to be the case there is not consensus for this change. Normally when that is the case the original version is what remains. Am I wrong? ( → Netscott) 18:41, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I've been waiting several days & none of my arguments has been addressed convincingly. I assume that there is either a consensus to reinsert the picture or a lack of valid, i.e. objective, reasons to do so (the latter is probably true). Therefore, I included the image inside the article again. -- The Hungry Hun 09:44, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
There is no vote here, but, as a white, completly british person, with no islamic links, I'd like to say that I am against placing a picture of Muhammad on Wikipedia.
It is (at the least) a personal taboo of many people, and breaking it by posting a picture here I feel is not a good reason.
Likewise, I would vote against breaking personal taboo's of any people without good reason, for example, posting a created image of one of us having sex with our mothers. If The Hungry Hun and other editors debating for the inclusion of a picture have no such personal taboo's and they are debating from this point of view, I'd be surprised, and open to education by them on how they attained this (in my view) enlightened perspective.
My belief is that "a general averseness to pictures" is a good enough reason, in this situation. --
RickiRich
04:36, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Valarauka(
T/
C)
05:28, 20 September 2006 (UTC)Oral and written descriptions are readily accepted by all traditions of Islam, while Muslims differ as to whether or not visual depictions of Muhammad are permissible[citation needed]: Some Muslims believe that to prevent idolatry and shirk, or ascribing partners to Allah, visual depictions of Muhammad and other prophets of Islam should be prohibited. Other Muslims believe respectful depictions should be allowed [citation needed]. Both sides have produced Islamic art — the aniconists through calligraphy and arabesque, the pictorialists through book illustration and architectural decoration [citation needed]. Negative portrayal of Muhammad, whether spoken, written, drawn, or filmed, may be taken as a great offense by Muslims, see Muslim veneration for Muhammad.
I have not seen any Muslim scholars that say it is good to represent Muhammad. There might be few black sheep. But if you still want to write above misleading claims. Than provide each line with multiple references please. Otherwise do not make huge claims without giving a single reference. ---- Faisal 18:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Seconded. We keep treating this like a "majority is X, but there is a minority school that holds Y" issue. That's simply not my experience. In Shia literature, I've seen lots of imagery, but ... no Prophet. In Sunni, you see only calligraphy and geometric design inside a masjid, never any living being, and certainly not the Prophet. BYT 18:49, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I copied the lead without even looking at it. If you have an issue with it, go over to Depictions of Muhammad and change it. Once you get your changes accepted, adjust the text here. There is no point in arguing about the same piece of text in two separate places. Faisal, I am not sure if "from Indonesia to Africa" includes Afghanistan, but I hear that devotional images of Muhammad are quite popular there. Reading the text, I agree with BYT insofar as the aniconists should be portrayed as a clear majority. As usual in cases of Islamic demography, it will be impossible to get any reliable statistical data, of course, so "majority" must suffice. (ᛎ) qɐp 19:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
That's not the only issue under discussion, though. BYT 20:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Speaking personally, I don't know that "they" tend to go by what Sistani is saying. Have you got some reason to believe that this is the "default" Shia position? (Not being sarcastic, I've just had very little exposure to Shia practice.) I can tell you that we'd be waving a rather defiant red flag in front of large number of Sunnis ... for the good reason that .... ? BYT 21:18, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I am fairly new to this debate, but as an historian I feel it encumbant on me to make a contribution. Wikepedia is not about censorship - if Muslims feel offended at an historical, accurate and verified portrayal of Muhammed, then that is no part of our concern - after all, we don't take into account whether Nazis might be offended at our portrayal of Hitler. The Hitler article is very fair, and so should be our article about Muhammed - portraying both the positive and the negative opinions about him. TharkunColl 22:56, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Hitler --- Nazis, Muhammad --- Muslims ... Good point with good example is made TharkunColl. Netscott, I will contribute after some more research. Although being a Sunni Muslim, I dislike all the representation of Muhammad but I am not fully aware of Shia view about this. Hence I must do some research before taking part in this discussion. Even if some Shias believe in what you said, things could have been written in much better way than they are written now. --- Faisal 23:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
please try to keep the discussion "what images should we display here" separate from the discussion about the accuracy of the lead of the "Depictions" article. This section discusses the latter (is it fair to say "some Muslims [are aniconists] -- some Muslims [aren't]" when the ratio is 95:5? 92:8? 85:15? (ᛎ) qɐp 23:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
My hunch as a Shi'a is that we should not depict him, nor the Imams. But some people still depict the Imams. There is some internal diputes among Shi'a about the issue of depicting immas, mainly due to the multi-marja system (i guess). But i can't recal any Shi'a depiction of Muhammad (as)... im not 100% of that, but my guess is that no mater the verdict, Shi'a strongly tend to avoid depicting Muhammad, even more than they tend to avoid depicting Ali (as).-- Striver 23:08, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
This may be a level of detail that should be worked out at Talk:Depictions of Muhammad. Then summary style can be used to frame the section here. Right now the section has the Persian miniature of the Miraj. Are there any big objections to that? Tom Harrison Talk 22:01, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, a cursory glance over the above discussions did not reveal to me any form of consensus over the header. So let's either reach that consensus here, or if it has been reached, it will certainly harm no-one to make sure this is clearly defined somewhere under a recognisable title.
BrandonYusufToropov prefers:
'''Muḥammad''' ({{lang-ar|محمد}}; also '''Mohammed''', '''Mahomet''', and other variants),<ref>Mahomet etc.; [[Turkish language|Turkish]]: ''Muhammed''; {{Audio|Ar-muhammad.ogg|click here}} for the Arabic pronunciation</ref> [[570]]-[[632]] <small>CE</small>,<ref>According to traditional Muslim biographers, Muhammad was born c. [[570]] in [[Mecca]] and died [[June 8]] [[632]] in [[Medina]], both in the [[Hejaz]] region of present day [[Saudi Arabia]].</ref> is the pre-eminent [[prophet]] of the religion of [[Islam]] and the leader of the early [[Muslim]] community ([[Ummah]]) at Medina. [[Muslim]]s believe him to have been God's final [[prophets of Islam|prophet]], to whom the [[Qur'an]] was divinely revealed through the [[angel]] [[Gabriel]] as the final revelation to mankind.
Whilst Editorius opts for:
'''Muḥammad''' ({{lang-ar|محمد}}; also '''Mohammed''', '''Mahomet''', and other variants),<ref>Mahomet etc.; [[Turkish language|Turkish]]: ''Muhammed''; {{Audio|Ar-muhammad.ogg|click here}} for the Arabic pronunciation</ref> [[570]]-[[632]] <small>CE</small>,<ref>According to traditional Muslim biographers, Muhammad was born c. [[570]] in [[Mecca]] and died [[June 8]] [[632]] in [[Medina]], both in the [[Hejaz]] region of present day [[Saudi Arabia]].</ref> established the religion of [[Islam]] and the [[Muslim]] community ([[Ummah]]).<ref> This does not mean that Muhammad was the first to propagate the submission to one god (= monotheism). Here, "Islam" and "Muslim" are used in their current meanings, ''not'' in their original Arabic meanings.</ref> [[Muslim]]s believe him to have been God's final [[prophets of Islam|prophet]], to whom the [[Qur'an]] was divinely revealed.
Now, it seems to me that BYT's main complaint is "religion of islam", as within the arab world this would be equivalent to "founder of monotheism". If this is the main problem, then such wordings as "the religion refered to as islam" may be more appropriate. I would suggest to all involved that if there is a disagreement, niether wording is the solution. Let's work on some form of sensible compromise. LinaMishima 17:37, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I prefer BYT's version. BhaiSaab talk 18:43, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I prefer BYT's version too (btw I think User:Tigeroo first introduce this version). For me the word "established" is a problem and footnotes are annoying. -- Faisal 18:58, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Ok, let's try this from another angle: Rather than arguing simply against any one version, please argue for one of the texts this time. And two thoughts. Firstly, perhaps we all need some perspective on this subject. We can easily draw inspiration from similar articles, and Jesus seems to be not too bad. Notice how the christian believes are clearly marked. Secondly, it seems to me that the islamic community do not believe that muhammad founded Islam. Based on the prior example, what about a wording such as "Muslims believe that muhammed was not the founder of islam, but rather..."? LinaMishima 04:44, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Obviously different versions here. Here's what I was referring to:
Encyclopedia Britannica does use it, my error.
My (three-dimensional, not virtual) fifth-edition (1993) Columbia says, (and again I quote:) The name of the Prophet of ISLAM (small caps there indicate a cross-ref) and one of the great figures of history. Could I ask you, once again, Editorius, what specific problem you have with such an approach?
Tharkun (apparently unhappy with the resolution of our discussion of Aisha, above) changes the subject and asks:
Because Mohammedanism is precisely what Muslims reject (and an example of shirk). Did he read the WP article? "The term is considered offensive by many Muslims, who say the words imply that Muhammad is worshipped...'" BYT 15:43, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
"Muslims are incorrect." Hmmm. What else are they incorrect about, and how else could you use the opening of this article to correct them?
I have an idea. Let us try using a similar approach at the opening paragraph of Catholicism first, just to see how it goes: "Catholics claim to venerate, rather than worship, the Virgin Mary, even though they believe in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception." From whose POV would such a sentence issue? Whose agenda would be promoted by putting a central belief of Catholocism under a rhetorical "if you buy that sort of thing" shadow? Those who a) manifest a prejudice against Catholics and b) wish to see that prejudice enshrined in an encylopedia.
Strange way to spend your day. Anyway, give it a try there and let me know what happens. BYT 16:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
To claim that Mohammed didn't found Islam is pure intellectual dishonesty. Yes, I know that Muslims believe that Islam has existed since the beginning of time - just like Scientologists believe all sorts of ridiculous sci-fi rubbish - but that's no reason to take them seriously. We are in the business of reporting truth here. Mohammed founded Islam, and this is an absolute, incontrovertable fact. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar. TharkunColl 17:24, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Faisal, please tell us why you consider the footnote and the verb "establish" inacceptable; and also tell us how you know that usually footnotes aren't read. Editorius 17:30, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Whilst Editorius seemed to use (understandably) a slightly argumentative tone, sadly he did have a very good point on this matter. We should probably establish exactly what each side believe and what sources they are using to support their argument. Please can you all input to the following, in a strictly academic tone. Do not reply to other people's comments, nor be argumentative. SImply answer the questions as best you can, stating your reasoning and whatever sources you are using. Please expain your position simply, as if you were explaining to someone with no knowledge of this subject area at all:
And again, stay calm, just state your belief, why that is the one you hold (explaining any teaching rather than simply citing it) and let's make sure everyone knows what we are looking to work in. LinaMishima 18:57, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
LinaMishima, you are inclined to Editorius since the start and supporting his view on the article. It does not makes him correct or his point valid. --- Faisal 19:17, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
We non-Muslim Wikipedians interested in Islam are accommodating people, aren't we? We always want everything to be to the liking of those Muslims who don't give a damn about Wikipedia's being a non-Islamic encyclopedia, where scientifically ascertained historical facts matter and not fabricated religious myths. So let us all be friends of Islam and rephrase the introductory statement as follows:
Editorius 03:55, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Dear Lina, I have already made a good deal of "serious contributions" (read the relevant discussion pages anew). Editorius 05:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
This is ridiculous...I could easily bring in quotes from the Bible that say similar things and say how evil the Bible is but that would be taking it out of context, just as you are doing now with the Qur'an. People tend to do this all too often, quoting violence alone in the Qur'an as a means to justify their message of how evil it is, when the same can be found in their very own beliefs if looked for. Let's not take things out of context and let's look at things objectively
From http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=establish&x=0&y=0
Establish:
Muhammad's involvement with Islam falls under defintions #4 and #5.
Isn't anyone interested in the proposed merger of Islamic view of Muhammad and Islamic views of Muhammad? For example, in the first one, the section The birthday of Muhammad (Mawlid) says,
Most Muslims celebrate Muhammad's birthday with elaborate festivities. Cities and homes are illuminated with colorful lights and candles, parades and processions are carried out, and conferences on the life of the Prophet are held.
Perhaps because I've only been a Muslim for 25 years, and living in America, I've never been invited to one of these celebrations ( Mawlid lists the dates through 2021), but who am I to contradict the assertion "most" without proof?
Anyway, the stuff in those two articles looks like a Much Better waste of time than this tiresome debate. -- Dennette 18:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I've also never heard of celebrating the Prophet's birthday in Islam being a Muslim all my life. I do not believe Islam promotes the celebration of birthdays in general, including the Prophet's. This is likely only done in certain cultures.
The Muslims believe that their purely ideological, mythological view of history is equal to the one of the scientific historians, who explore history strictly empirically.
If we grant them that there is no substantial difference between religious myths and factual scientific accounts, they have succeeded in Islamizing Wikipedia. Editorius 18:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Even though I said the cup of my willingness to compromise was drained, I just happened to spot one last drop in it.
After having unsuccessfully proposed the formulation "M. promulgated the religion of Islam", I hereby propose the following similar one:
"Muhammad, the man who preached the religion of Islam in the 7th century CE and established the Muslim community (Umma)."
This statement is at least true to the historical facts.
(Just for your information: I still emphatically deny that religious myths are equal to scientific accounts! By "unequal" I do not just mean "incommensurable" but that scientific accounts of history are superior to myths.)
Editorius 18:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Of course, the science of history has the non-trivial empirical problem of finding reliable evidence concerning the past so that the historians' accounts must often remain full of gaps. Of course, mythological accounts do not suffer from any such inevitable methodological complications, since the mythologists hardly care for objective evidence anyway. Their stories happen to be gapless just because they complete them by brazenly fabricating the missing or desired facts. Scientific historians are more honest: when there is not enough evidence, they openly admit it. Editorius 19:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
To be quite honest, I agree with you there. but it's policy here to use 'soft security', and to 'reach concensus'. I strongly suspect that our friend Editorius will not simply stop editing if we decide, without their involvement, that consensus suggests the version before their changes (which, to be frank, it does, and the reasoning behind it makes sense). This is why I am trying to get Editorius to explain exactly their view point, which allows us to consider any valid points there may be (so far I've seen a lot of shouting, and little exact points with reasing and references); and to get those arguing against Editorius to explain their position in a form that Editorius can understand. In theory this either leads to further warnings of incivility, or a means being found to mesh these points (which we are but a short distance off doing, from what I can tell). I'm sure that Editorius does want to reach a solution that everybody's happy with really (well, we have to assume good faith, don't we?). Sadly such mediation is all there is to offer before such nasty and bitter extremes as RfC and ArbCon :( LinaMishima 19:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
prophet • noun (fem. prophetess) 1 an inspired teacher or proclaimer of the will of God. 2 a person who predicts the future. 3 a person who advocates a new belief or theory.
proph·et (prŏf'ĭt) pronunciation n. 1. A person who speaks by divine inspiration or as the interpreter through whom the will of a god is expressed. 2. A person gifted with profound moral insight and exceptional powers of expression. 3. A predictor; a soothsayer. 4. The chief spokesperson of a movement or cause. 5. 1. Prophets (used with a sing. or pl. verb) The second of the three divisions of the Hebrew Scriptures, comprising the books of Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the Twelve. Used with the. 2. Prophet One of the prophets mentioned in the Bible, especially one believed to be the author of one of these books. Used with the. 6. Prophet Islam. Muhammad. Used with the.
It appears User:FayssalF has locked the page due to the edit war. While I have no problem with this, I am concerned about the specific administrator who locked the page. The page lock states, "Protection is not an endorsement of the current page version." However, FayssalF himself was involved in the revert war, reverting at least twice from the previous consensus version. And rather than locking the page outright, he reverted once more to his desired version before full-protecting the page. I think this is a clear endorsement of a version and a sad expression of the cabalistic way in which this article is controlled/censored. — Aiden 14:54, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
LinaMishima, see Talk:Muhammad/archive_7#Compromise.3F and Talk:Muhammad/archive_7#Can_we_vote_yet.3F. FayssalF, I think you know policy dictates that admins involved in an article, much less an edit war on an article, should not be locking that same page. Secondly, your reverts were in no way reverts of vandalism. Simply because an IP edits the article and you disagree with it does not make it vandalism, nor does it automatically mean that user a sockpuppet. Thirdly, on your talk page, you were quite rude and dismissive to this user, who raised very valid points. Considering the number of revert wars you yourself have been involved in here, you should not be using your administrative capabilities on this article. Finally, I think it is quite clear that your rollback and lock did in fact amount to an endorsement of a version. Again, completely unethical. — Aiden 20:22, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Aiden, I fully agree with you that Fayssal's modus operandi is suspect, to put it mildly. Editorius 13:41, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Reading back accross prior discussion and archive 7 (still reading it), I am noticing a few things:
More thoughts later as I continue to read. LinaMishima 17:27, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Not quite so well said. Here's BrandonYusufToropov's formulation:
This is the kind of formulation one finds in Islamic dictionaries and encyclopedias, which suggests that Muhammad is in no way the originator of the Islamic religion but merely a non-creative "messenger". According to Islamic mythology, which anachronistically Islamizes the entire pre-Muhammadian history of monotheistic religion for purely ideological reasons, there is a pre-Muhammadian era of Islam. According to the myth, the religion of Islam did not originate with Muhammad, who is merely considered the historically last medium ("seal of the prophets") through which the eternal Quranic message was conveyed to the people. According to the myth, the history of Islam begins with Adam and Eve, and not with Muhammad.
Here's my comment on the equivocation on "Islam": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Muhammad/archive_7#Primordial_Islam.3F
Wellywell, so let both sides have their say. New formulation:
"According to scientific historiography, Muhammad is the founder of the Islamic religion; according to Islamic mythology, Muhammad is not the founder of Islam but only God's final prophet in a series of prophets preceding him, who all convey essentially the same eternal divine message to mankind."
Editorius 17:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I might only accept something that presents two sides view clearly. like
Muslims believe that Muhammad is the last and most important Prophet of religion Islam and .... and non-Muslim think him as ... The Muslim believe must come first than non-Muslims because that is more related to Muhammad. Furthermore, one can skip non-Muslim view in case it is just opposite to Muslims view. ---
Faisal
18:34, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Faisal, there is one basic thing you misunderstand: It's not non-Muslim view vs. Muslim view but scientific view vs. mythical view. Editorius 19:39, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Aiden, again I fully agree with you. From the objective point of view, your formulation is doubtless impeccable. We know that Muhammad founded the Islamic religion, and nobody except for the Muslim dogmatists denies this historical fact. Some of the Muslim Wikipedians want to make us believe that this is a debate between the Muslim worldview and the non-Muslim worldview(s). But actually, it is a debate between the objective historical perspective and the ideological Islamic perspective, the latter of which is mythological by nature. Editorius 02:45, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Quoting Encyclopedia of Islam (EoI) which is an academic secular source:"Still Muhammad was not thinking any more than before of founding a new religion, but only of restoring the true religion proclaimed by the prophets from the beginning. On this point a distinction needs to be made between religious beliefs and later theological formulations on the one hand, and the conclusions reached by modern historical and sociological research. For instance, in traditional Muslim belief Muhammad is the “last and greatest of the prophets ” , a concept that is most likely based on a later interpretation of the expression “ seal of the prophets ” ( khatam al-nabiyyin) that is applied to Muhammad in sura XXXIII, 40. Also, he is regarded not as a “ founder ” but as one who confirmed and restored the true, ancient monotheist faith that was established by the prophet Abraham. It should not be surprising that it was at the very time when these concepts were being proclaimed by the Qur'an, during the early years after the Hijra, that historians see the emergence of a new religious community and tradition founded by Muhammad, a man of extraordinary perception and skills." -- Aminz 02:35, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
THUS, Editorius who calls Islamic religious beliefs and theological formulations, Islamic mythology should take note of how the reliable sources he supposedly supports deal with this issue.
My POV is that this point should be made clear in the article as these academic sources do. Thus I do not support suggestions that do not write it as "Islamic religious beliefs and theological formulations say X and modern historical and sociological research say Y". -- Aminz 02:35, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Aiden, Thanks for your comment. I am afraid I can not agree since 1. Jesus being the "central figure of Christianity" does not contradict Jesus being God incarnate. But Muhammad having founded Islam does contradict Muslim belief. 2. As you said, we must make sure that the article as a whole, and in individual parts, does not convey this view was fact per WP:NPOV.
Here is my suggestion:
-- Aminz 05:07, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
No mention of founder, founding etc. as is being attempted to be inserted here, nor of a refuting non-christian views or "historical non-mythical views" that does not beleive in his godhood to NPOV the intro. Others do regard him as the founder of christianity, his being a jew is irrelevant because his teachings led to a new religious tradition in the same sense of Muhammad. A huge part of the world is not christian either and makes the connection of "founders" as Jesus = Christianity, Moses = Judaism, Muhammad = Islam on the precept of source of teachings = founder. Personally I care a whit about the term founder or what not, as I have stated earlier, before even beginning to edit in this conflict.
A clear distinction needs to be drawn between "Islam"'s reference to the Islamic religion and "Islam"'s reference to strict monotheism in general. In the English-speaking world (and elsewhere) "Islam" definitely and indubitably refers only to the former. What is the Islamic religion? — It's the monotheistic religious system of Muslims founded in Arabia in the 7th century and based on the teachings of Muhammad as laid down in the Koran. This particular religious system is not identical to other monotheistic systems such as Judaism and Christianity, even though there are similarities between them. To say that the Islamic religion existed before Muhammad is sheer historical nonsense, whereas it's certainly no nonsense to say that there is a pre-Muhammadian history of (strict) monotheism. — Editorius 21:01, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Can everyone please make a proposal. My question is that why do we need to start with the founder sentence. Encyclopedia of Islam writes: "That Muhammad was one of the greatest persons in world history in terms of the global impact of the movement he founded cannot be seriously questioned. How did his extraordinary success occur? One answer is theological: God chose Muhammad as His Prophet and was directly responsible for his triumph over polytheism and evil. Another is based on historical and other empirical evidence: Muhammad had remarkable leadership skills and a charismatic personality that enabled him to attract other strong leaders who were firmly committed to him, and together they were responsible for the early success of the Muslim community."
THUS, I suggest this:
Muhammad was one of the greatest persons in world history in terms of the global impact he had. Muhammad is, from an academic historical and sociological standpoint, the founder of Islam. According to the Muslim theological formulations Muhammad was however not a founder of Islam but the last prophet of God who confirmed and restored the original monotheist faith, i.e. Islam, which was established by Abraham.
How is that? -- Aminz 23:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
That won't fly because its glorifies Muhammad, and can still be made simpler and clearer. Here is a variation on the current intro, which is less ambigious and creates a clear and direct linkage between Muhammad and Islam, while avoiding the term founded.
Ideally the first sentence and the first half of the second sentence should be merged. It still partially repeates itself but is simpler, directer and less convoluted than Aminz proposal. It's still awkward to read but it should set a new direction in which to improve and should solve the non-issue by being more direct in the association of Muhammad and Islam as a distinct social community and addressing the concerns of those who associate Islam as a philosophical or spiritual progression. Reference to the term Ummah has been removed as it extends into a secondary tangent. -- Tigeroo 01:52, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Tigeroo, yours is a kind of formulation I could live with. But I'd rather replace the first "prophet" with "man":
That should suffice. — Editorius 14:22, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Spare us further verbal cramps! According to the American Heritage Dict. "prophet" means "a person who speaks by divine inspiration or as the interpreter through whom the will of a god is expressed". The problem is that there is a semantic difference between "real prophet" and "alleged prophet". To write that "Muhammad is the prophet ..." too strongly connotes "Muhammad is the real prophet ...", while for atheists he certainly is just an alleged or "so-called" prophet. For this reason the simple noun "man" is preferable to "prophet". And I don't think Muslims find calling Muhammad a man objectionable. — Editorius 15:59, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
"Muhammad is the final prophet of god within the religion of Islam. Muslims beleive that their primary religious text, the Quran was revealed to him through the agency of the angel Gabriel. He established Islam as the primary religion of a unified state upon the Arabian peninsula."
New version, incorporating his historical significance, alongside his religious significance. Clarifications, primary because other religions still existed at this point, Islam alongside the mention of the state because this was the ideology that bound the new state under him. Religious relevance before historical relevance, because one led to the other, and also thats the historically progression. (unsigned comments by Tigeroo)
"Muhammad is the final prophet of god within the religion of Islam. Muslims beleive that their primary religious text, the Quran was revealed to him through the angel Gabriel. He conveyed Islam as the religion for humanity." Here is mine version it is not final. You can add anything by saying non-Muslim say that.... The above definition specifies "Arabian peninsula" that may lead to believe that Islam is limited to a specific area only and no person outside that area was Muslim at Muhammad era. --- Faisal 17:48, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Tigeroo's latest version is very good. Perhaps we could address some of Faisal's concerns by using the following "Muhammad is the final prophet of god within the religion of Islam. Muslims beleive that their primary religious text, the Quran was revealed to him through the agency of the angel Gabriel. He established Islam as the primary religion of a unified state upon the Arabian peninsula, which has since became one of the dominant religions of the world". The end I'm suggesting would need a reference, I suspect, but it's true. the initial wordform is neat, and both makes the "within Islam" point and the whole bit about being a prophet (which people not so hot on this term can take solstice in the fact this means he's official listed up with Nostradamus and Merlin - no offense, of course). LinaMishima 01:20, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
hey all.. sorry for crashing in! i would just like to note that it is telling that the EoI totally avoids the issue initally about whether or not he "founded" Islam (as Aminz describes above) until several thousand words later where they then discuss the issue. i think Tigeroo's latest version is very good. perhaps a slight tweak to the last sentence: "He established Islam as the primary(better word "dominant"?) religion in the Arabian peninsula, under a unified state which would spread beyond these boundaries." or something along those lines? ITAQALLAH 07:55, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
"Muhammad is the final prophet of god within the religion of Islam. Muslims beleive that their primary religious text, the Quran was revealed to him through the agency of the angel Gabriel. He has conveyed Islam as the religion for whole humanity, which has since became one of the dominant religions of the world [5]" I am even happy with the change done by LinaMishima (thanks) but above might bit better. I have copied a reference form Islam page that say Islam is second largest religion of the world and majority is non-Arab (Arab are less than 25 percent or so). Although the intro is now looking very good and most of the Muslims will be happy with it but I am afraid that Editorius and Aiden might not be happy. --- Faisal 09:25, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
We are going round in circles now. Many of the editors still fail to address the historical viewpoint that Muhammad founded a new religion. Please see any mainstream encyclopedia for information on the historical view. While both views need to be represented, it should be noted that about 5 of the world 6 billion people are not Muslim and thus may not believe the Muslim view that Islam has "existed forever". Thus, it will continue to be a violation of WP:NPOV unless the intro specifically states both viewpoints.
This is how I believe the entire introduction should read. — Aiden 01:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
My sources are EoI: "While the theologian and other believers seek to understand the role of God acting through the Prophet, the historian seeks the measure of the man himself. The theological answer is obvious and indisputable for the believer, but, if taken alone as the explanation of the Prophet's success, it runs the risk of diminishing Muhammad's greatness as a man by making him a mere agent of divine action. The purpose of the first section of this article is to seek the historical Muhammad."
-- Aminz 01:55, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Acceptable version that incorporates founder and contextualizes both founder and prophet, also correcting some information.-- Tigeroo 14:51, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
How about the following formulation, which is based on Aiden's good one:
This should really suffice. (By the way, to write "Koran" in English with "Qu" or even with "Qu"+apostrophe is needless.) Editorius 15:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Or, to put it slightly more precisely:
Editorius 15:46, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
This formulation, which is fortunately free from stupid weasel words, should really be perfectly agreeable to both Muslims and non-Muslims. — Editorius 15:55, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
BYT, what is clear to me is that you're not at all willing to compromise. Talking about "consensus", wasn't it you who repeatedly deleted the previous version high-handedly !?! And as regards "the obsession" with founder, what I'm actually obsessed with is truth, whereas it seems to me that what you're obsessed with is not truth but ideology. — I defy you to state a non-ideological reason why the "Aiden-Editorius formulation" shouldn't be deemed fully agreeable, generally and particularly in a non-Islamic encyclopedia such as Wikipedia!!! — Editorius 18:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Tigeroo, let me remind you of the fact that the readers of encyclopedias expect the initial sentence of an entry to be as concise as possible. — Editorius 18:47, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but there's already been much too much senseless verbal meandering here. I really fail to understand why you still don't simply accept the "Aiden-Editorius formulation" above, which explicitly states (it's no longer mentioned in a footnote!) that within Islam Muhammad is not regarded as a founder. What else you do want?! Tell me, and be honest! — Editorius 23:52, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
And don't overlook that we've been arguing here ad nauseam only over the very first sentence and not the entire entry, which consists of many further sentences! — Editorius 23:57, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
No additional "clarifications" are needed! — Spell the word "concise"! — What you seem to have forgotten is that this encyclopedia entry is titled "Muhammad" and not "Scientific Historiography vs. Theological Historiography". — There are two simple things everybody ought to learn first about Muhammad:
That's it, and it is no bloody doubt in accordance with the "NOPV policy"! The Aiden-Editorius formulation mentions both (1) and (2). — Editorius 00:50, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Don't you two (and some others) ever get bored by your own idle chatter?! — Editorius 04:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
As much as you do Editorius. The word Islam has an spectrum of meanings withing Qur'an. The problem really arises when we see the Qur'an using the word "Islam" and "Muslim" in different meanings in different places (Honestly, it makes me feel crazy with I remember those verses and read the sentence that Muhammad founded Islam). And for the record, it is not actually only the word "Islam": Another example of such confusion is the word "Salat" (prayer). Is "salat" what Muslims pray 5 times a day? If so, then how can Qur'an speak of those who are always in prayer? Similar to the word "Muslim", "Salat" is sometimes used to refer to something which is not the formal prayer. I can list many more examples: "Tasbih" (praising) and "Mumin" (believer), etc. etc. I think the words have some external symbolic meaning and some internal spritual meanings. You can not push your definition of Islam or Salat in wikipedia. -- Aminz 04:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Aminz, once again, this entry's title is not "The Koranic meanings of Islam" but "Muhammad". You've never read the footnote to the introductory statement that was deleted by you and your friends, did you?! The only thing that is relevant here is the current meaning of "Islam" in the English language and not its original (etymological) meaning(s) in Arabic. What is more, you also seem to have overlooked that I consciously substituted "the Islamic religion" for "Islam" in Aiden's original formulation, hoping that it is then clear enough that what is referred to is the entire religious system called "Islam" and not simply monotheism. — Editorius 12:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Tigeroo, as regards the noun phrase "the last prophet", let me stress that Aiden+I actually use it in our formulation:
This implies neither that he is the first prophet of Islam nor that he is the only one! — Editorius 12:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Come on, I beg you, it's really time for you all to step out of your smokescreen! — Editorius 12:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I want to rephrase our formulation slightly as follows:
There is a difference between religion (theology proper) and the science of religion, for the latter objectively studies a religion without affirming its faith. That is, the science of religion, as any other science, is characterized by methodological nontheism. Needless to mention that theology as such is not a science — neither is philosophy by the way. Of course, there are lots of academic theologians who also work in the field of the science of religion (= sociology of religion + psychology of religion + history of religion). Many of those actually do happen to hold the faith of the religion they're studying; but as scientists of religion they must not employ the methodology of dogmatics but only the (empiristic-nontheistic) methodology of science [*. Anyway, this meta-discussion need not be mirrored by the initial sentence, whose sole function is to provide the reader quickly and concisely with the most relevant core information about who Muhammad is/was. The rest is contained in the sentences following the initial one! [* This is certainly problematic for the theologians, since as scientists of religion they might discover facts about the religion they adhere to which contradict or even clearly disprove its dogmas and myths previously taken for granted.] — Editorius 14:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Lina, there is no such thing as a science of God. The theologians know nothing, not even whether their subject matter exists. As regards its theoretical part, theology is metaphysical speculation. Don't take me wrong, I don't mind metaphysical speculation at all, but its purely a priori reasoning cannot be justifiably called "scientific".
Editorius 13:07, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Aminz, there already is an entry on the science of religion (German "Religionswissenschaft"):
(This entry has some weak spots, but those do not matter here.)
As regards the etymology and the definition(s) of "Islam", there is no need to place such a link in the initial sentence. The link to the entry on Islam, where those linguistic aspects should be explained, is sufficient. And generally, "overlinked" sentences look awful! — Editorius 13:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Lina, you enjoy misreading my words, don't you?! :-( — Editorius 14:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
How about this:
-- Aminz 22:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Aminz, the link to the entry on Islam in the previous sentence is really sufficient. There already is an information overload! — Editorius 22:56, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
The whole problem here is that the intro is not spacy enough. My suggestion is to avoid controversial issues in the intro but to have them linked to other sections of the article. We will never reach to any consensus. -- Aminz 04:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Aiden's introduction is more than fair and conciliatory towards all but the most extremist views, which unfortunately seem to have made their religious agenda known on wikipedia's Muhammad page, and almost appears to be a coordinated effort. I would like to point to other pages of other religions Mary Baker Eddy Joseph Smith Jr. Charles Taze Russell, all of which are called 'founders'. I think that the distinction needs to be made between a doctrinal argument and what is stating clear, objective (and by now widely accepted) fact. Also, compromise should not lead to accepting their apparent single-minded fundamentalist goal of editing everything to conform to their world view, to the point that there can't even be a historical picture of Muhammad. Carried to it's logical conclusion, images of the Sistine Chapel would be unacceptable. I think that it needs to be noted that there is a difference between 'collaborative' effort and 'tactic'. One tactic seems to be disagreeing on the meaning and 'connotation' of words specifically to entangle, delay and continue the argument. Especially when there is no subsequent suggestion other than rejecting everything out of hand. Thus turning this 'collaborative' effort into an 'exercise of futility'. Many of the arguments made on this talk page are ridiculous, and it is unfortunate that editors have to give them credence by participating in them. It is clear to me that some users want to export their culture of ideological censorship and revisionism to wikipedia. Nodekeeper 22:18, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
-- Tigeroo 10:24, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Nodkeeper I dont know you mean to say "campaign." Several things that are wrong with your statement, 1 Islam exists since Adam (p.b.u.h.) with no change, only those who change it come up with something else that is close but not the same (Christian and jewishness) 2 Qur’an does not come from prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h.) but writen by Allah (God), someone told you something wrong here 3 Muhammad (p.b.u.h.) is to emulation because he followed Allah in everything he does in life, no wrong step or shirk because Allah guided him. 4 You do not know or anyone else know what prophet looks like or have picture of him so please do not lie and put a picture 5 why should nonmuslim write part of article on Muslim prophet?? LionofTruth˜˜˜˜
Also I don't have to assume good faith in the face of personal attacks, or demonstrated states as such as used in your edit summary. -- Tigeroo 06:47, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Faisal, it makes me sad to learn you're not happy. Is there anything we cursed unbelievers can do to make the Muslim in you happy again? — I guess definitions such as the following ones will cheer you up:
Just wanted to say: Thanks for nothing! — Editorius 14:22, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I believe Tigeroo has repeatedly stated my position far better than I could ever do. They have found real references arguing against the term "founder", and have seemingly understood the issue with contempory accounts. I am quite happy with Tigeroo's revisions. I am also quite pleased to see Editorius use references to support their stance, which is a welcome development. Matters are distinctly not helped by those who are keen on a 'founder' formulation apparently assuming a religious bias, rather than simply a disagreement with the term. There is a compromise hiding here, but the lack of detail on the muslim history article isn't helping me find when his teachings began to be viewed as a separate religion rather than a sect. Indeed, that article highlights that it was his statesmanship and abilities as a military leader that apparently had the greatest of effects to early islam. LinaMishima 16:00, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Here's another short quotation from an eminent scholar, Bernard Lewis:
Editorius 18:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Editorius, There are many other sources who make this founder attribution clear. I again re-state my suggestion:
-- Aminz 22:25, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Aminz, I really appreciate your support for "the Aiden-Editorius formulation"; but your addition in brackets is completely misplaced in an encyclopedia's initial sentence. — Editorius 00:09, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Another suggestion:
-- Aminz 01:26, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Tigeroo, what is "[Muhammad] is not anything from the standpoint of the science of religion" supposed to mean. From this standpoint Muhammad actually is something, namely, the founder of Islam, in the following sense: If Muhammad had not existed, the religious system known as "Islam" would not exist. — Editorius 16:31, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I wanted to add this to the section but it was protected.
Slavery existed in all the ancient civilizations of Asia, Africa, Europe, and pre-Columbian America and had been accepted and even endorsed by Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, as well as other religions of the world, Lewis states. Lewis however states that Islam brought two major changes to ancient slavery 'which were to have far-reaching effects. One of these was the presumption of freedom; the other, the ban on the enslavement of free persons except in strictly defined circumstances.' The position of the Arabian slave was "enormously improved": The Arabian slave 'was now no longer merely a chattel but was also a human being with a certain religious and hence a social status and with certain quasi-legal rights.' The practice of slavery in the Islamic empire represented a 'vast improvement on that inherited from antiquity, from Rome, and from Byzantium.' [39]
I suggest having sub-sections within the "Muhammad the reformer" section. -- Aminz 22:25, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
- John L Esposito in Islam: The Straight Path p. 79 writes:
"Much of Qur'an's reforms consists of regulations or moral guidance that limit or redefine rather than prohibit or replace existing practices. Slavery and women's status are two striking examples. Although slavery was not abolished, slave owners were encouraged to emancipate their slaves, to permit them to earn their freedom, and to "give them some of God's wealth which He has given you" (24:33). Forcing female slaves into prostitution was condemned. Women and the family were subjects of more wide-ranging reforms affecting marriage, divorce, and inheritance. Marriage was a contract, with women entitled to their dower (4:4). Polygamy was restricted (4:3), men were commanded to treat their wives fairly and equally (4:129). Women were given inheritance rights in a patriarchal society that had previously restricted inheritance to male relatives.
-- Aminz 22:28, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
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