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The list of links to online biographies was getting longer and longer. I deleted the duplicate link to MSA, one link that was just to a proselytizing site, and then picked some links that seemed representative and not too kooky. I may have made bad choices; I'm not at all sure of myself. I request the help of the Muslim editors here. We need only the best of the links; that means most informative and best written. We need a Sufi version, a Salafi version, perhaps a modernist version if one exists, maybe a Shi'a version ... not more than five, say. We can't have five links to Salafi or Wahhabi sites. We need to be even-handed.
I'm getting better at sussing out the motives of the various sites, but I still make mistakes ... so help from the Muslim editors IS needed. Zora 07:48, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Here is a website in many languages describing our Prophet Muhammad (s.a.s): http://www.islamway.com/mohammad
It would be great to put this as an external link for the biographie
An IPA pronunciation key is needed for this entry. I'd provide one myself but I'm not sure of the correct pronunciation of Muhammed. Agateller 13:57, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Anyone here use it ( http://wapipedia.org)? I'm kind of new to it, and there doesn't seem to be a talk/editing facility. So I'm going to post this here, hope that's okay. Their article on the Prophet Mohammed includes the following text:
By his own standards, the continuing traditions of social justice in the Islamic World, of methods and knowledge of science, history and medicine as they evolved in the modern world (thanks to his profound influence driving Muslims to literacy and inquiry), and the prayers of over one billion Muslims, many of whom pray for him five times a day (or attach " peace be upon him" after each mention of his name), render Muhammad arguably the most influential man in all history, an honour often reserved for Jesus in the West. Even those historians who have deplored his influence and considered it to have retarded the growth of its chief rival faith, Christianity, express grudging admiration for the man.
and this:
To the traitors inside Medina it must have come as a surprise when the 10,000-strong force of Abu Sufyan failed to cross a trench dug around Medina by order of Muhammad, as the Persian scribe Salman e-Farsi had suggested to him. After the retreat of Abu Sufyan and his forces, the Muslims directed their attention towards the groups that had committed treason to the Charter of Medina. The munafiqun quickly crumbled, and their leader Abd Allah ibn Ubayy pledged allegiance to Muhammad. The Muslims then besieged the Banu Qurayza, who had intrigued against them. They had the opportunity of choosing Muhammad as an arbitrator, but instead the Banu Qurayza chose Saad ibn Muadh, the leader of their former allies, the Aus.
And this is its take on the Battle of Badr, 624 CE, which is markedly different to that found in the Wikipedia article (which raises doubts about the aftermath of the battle):
On March 15, 624 near a place called Badr, the two forces clashed. Though outnumbered 800 to 300 in the battle, the Muslims met with success, killing at least 45 Makkans, including Abu Jahl, and taking 70 prisoners; whereas only 14 Muslims died. To the Muslims this appeared as a divine vindication of Muhammad's prophethood, and he and all the Muslims rejoiced greatly. Following this victory, assassinations eliminated Medinans who had satirized Muhammad, and the victors expelled a hostile Jewish clan. Virtually all the remaining Medinans converted and Muhammad became de facto ruler of the city.
I had the idea that Wapipedia was a direct transfer of Wikipedia articles onto Wap, but it seems not. Timbudds@acasa.ro
If the goal of an encyclopedia is to be accurate then only things that are true should be in it. This is the logic I am pursuing.
If you look up the word "inaccuracy" and "true" on dictionary.com the you will find that inaccuracy is defined as "containing or characterized by error" and that the word true is defined "Consistent with fact or reality".
Since none of the pictures depicting prophet Mohammed (PBUH) are actually of him, but most probably of some other person (or just made up) then if those images are to be included then one can not suggest that the purpose of this encyclopedia is to be accurate. If there is no desire to make Wikipedia accurate then really it is meaningless and has no value.
If someone can "prove" that one of these pictures is actually of him and not someone else's image then at least I will have to cede acceptance of the picture on the front of historical accuracy.
Of course even a historicly accurate picture is still not beneficial because the next issue is what is the educational value of that picture. How is someone learning enhanced by it, unless we are also making Wikipedia for the illiterate who can only look at pictures. Autoshade
I must agree with Autoshade: Unless the picture provides a valuable, educational purpose, it should otherwise not be included in the article. Sure, I agree that learning about how the Persian interpretation of the image of the prophet and how “Muslims viewed Muhammad” are important topics; it is just that they should be placed in articles and other headings that relate to these concepts.
Placing the picture in the article, especially under the heading of “veneration” is sort of ironic: Muslims do not praise Muhammad by illustrations of him; they do quite the opposite and to prevent his imagery. Also, the purpose of placing the picture shouldn’t be for the sole point of creating controversy; the article was created for educating and providing factual information which the article will do fine without placing the Muhammad image in it. Stoa 21:49, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I am not a Salafi, I just do not understand why after 3 & 1/2 years without a picture it was necessary to add an image to the page. The first image was added by Zeno_of_Elea on 2005-07-03 without a description of reason. It was deleted 3 or 4 times in the following days but was repeatedly re-inserted. The idea of a portrate appears to me to have been treated as cannon thought it was never on the page before. It was finally discussed and the agreement was to have a veiled picture at the bottom of the page. Those are the facts, now my POV; NPOV seems to be determined by the number of people who support a particular side of a view, as in our case by the people who label me a Salafi. Ultimately I would never edit the page on Jews and I would respect Xtians by not adding an "Islamic" section because I know it would cause trouble. So I am asking that some respect and understanding be practiced as is mentioned in WP:Civility - Autoshade 07:14, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, Autoshade went ahead and removed the miniature. I restored it. Zora 08:26, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
On Resolving disputes is states "Do not simply revert changes in a dispute. When someone makes an edit you consider biased or inaccurate, improve the edit, rather than reverting it." I have improved it. There is still a link to the picture on the page, but without actually showing the picture. - Autoshade 14:46, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
3RR hit, done for today, See you tomorrow Autoshade 00:31, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
List of people known as father or mother of something lists Muhammad as "Father of Islam". This sounds really odd to me. Thoughts? -- 201.51.208.156 16:03, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
The Battle of Badr is a featured article, so -- as I expected -- it and various connected articles are getting lots of attention. Including this one.
I removed the fantasy picture of Muhammad from European sources. Adding it seemed like pure provocation to me. I also removed someone's notation that any mention of Muhammad must be followed by PBUH. WP doesn't issue orders, especially orders for religious observances. I also removed a long section on Muhammad's appearance that seems to have been sparked by the cartoon controversy. Lots of descriptions of Muhammad, old pictures of Muhammad, etc. I don't think that we have such sections in the case of most people who died before photography and without having been the subject of realistic portraiture. It also seems somewhat like intentional provocation.
It could be that that material could be spun off into a breakout article and then linked to the main page, as we've done with other controversial topics. Zora 19:23, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I took dab's suggestion and created Depiction of Muhammad. It's kind of stubby at the moment and needs lots more work. We should have some quotes from the earliest Muslim sources, like Ibn Sa'd. I have the relevant volume of Ibn Sa'd, so I try to find a good description and insert it later. We might also want to have some of the later, more fanciful and mythical, descriptions.
I think the article should have real pictures, not just links. Could someone add some MUSLIM pictures? Also, need links to cartoon controversy and possibly Satanic Verses (novel), as that involved verbal depictions that some people felt were disrespectful. External links would be good too.
I won't link it to the main Muhammad article and the cartoon article until it's readier for prime time ... but if someone else does it, I won't be upset. Zora 22:40, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
should Muhammad be placed in the slave owner Cat.?
He also raped his slaves. Not that my fellow muslims don't desperately try to hide this fact. Separating Muhammad the man from Muhammad the prophet is hard to do, especially when so many fundamentalists fill the faith. Fixislam 21:56, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
In my opinion, the Muhammed image I have posted here should be added to the article. Since it was crafted by Muslims, it is unoffensive. Any agreements, disagreements?--
FelineFanatic13
talk
Ys, I mind. Please don't remove the pictures, don't remove the calligraphy. Zora 00:03, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
"..I see no point in showing Muhammed's name in Arabic. " Then you don't understand the Muslim culture. Calligraphy and writing have tradtionally held paramount importance. Most of the decriptions of the Prophet come not from paintings of him (as do that of famous Europeans), but from imagery of his written descriptions. Bless sins 07:20, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
ok, so FelineFanatic is just here for WP:POINT. I still support addition of an Ottoman image to the "veneration" section, where it belongs. There are no images in the rest of the article, because the article is about a largely aniconic tradition. I mean, there are no images on Atheism either, we don't need images just for the sake of them, we only need them where they document the subject. Persian and Ottoman images document Persian and Ottoman veneration for Muhammad, period. Where we are treating Persian and Ottoman verneration, these images are proper, regardless of whether they offend other Muslims ( WP:NOT censored). Most of this article does not deal with Ottoman times, so the images are only appropriate in the section where they are now. We could do with another calligraphy to grace the top of the article, since that's how Muhammad is typically symbolized. dab (ᛏ) 08:47, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I must say I find it strange how there is so much vandalism of the Muhammad image, and none of the purported image of God. Is there someone whose religion allows images of God, but not of Muhammad? Timothy Usher 09:31, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Why do people want to remove this? Those who want to remove it would have a better case if they come up with alternative pictures. Aucaman Talk 22:51, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Autoshade, please note that this article is called *Muhammad*, not the Dome of the Rock. An image of Muhammad is thus on-topic. It is obvious that your change is motivated by religious taboo, not a desire to improve the article. Further, your caption treats Muhammad's ascent to heaven as a fact, which to you no doubt it is, but that is POV.
Timothy Usher 19:11, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Anyone here disagree that BlatherAndBlatherscite is a troll? -- Zero 09:47, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. I find it trollish for you to place this sort of notice here, too. Fixislam 19:36, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
I think this is used frequently enough to be mentioned somewhere in the first paragraph. A lot of the readers want to know what this means and having it hidden somewhere at the end of the article is not going to help. Aucaman Talk 10:11, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Aucaman, the info is there, it's just not in the place you want it to be (up front). Please let go of this. Zora 01:32, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Alright, so there is a revert/edit war upon us. That being said; I think a comprimise is possible here, if the blanket changes and charges of vandalism end. I'll go through the differences between the two versions piece by piece.
The introduction: Transliterations are very important especially for those who find it a bother to open those sound files. I also think Pepsidrinka's version fixes the odd statement that "Mohammed" is the most common way to transliterate the Prophet's name. The comment about the root at the end of the intro is a bit unnecessary, but I'm going to have to go with Pepsidrinka on this section.
The summary: The comment above the patron pagan deity looks like something of note. But the comment about the sultanate with the harem doesn't seem to make sense. A country with a private room for women? Eliminate that statement, but keep the one about the pagan deity.
Family life: I don't see anything wrong with FixIslam's version here.
The picture: Oh yes… the picture. FixIslam clearly has decent motives (as his/her user page shows). But I find it hard to believe that someone who is rallying for positive change in Islam and someone who feels pbuh is not necessary after the name of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is removing the veiled picture. It clearly is relevant to the article. This has recently been a hot issue, but those removing the picture have failed to provide a reason for doing so.
Notes: I'm not exactly sure why this section was removed. Change it back to Pepsidrinka's version.
The template: I'm not sure why this was removed either, so re-instate the template.
All in all, I think the issue here is that FixIslam made a large number of edits at the same time without any clear reason. The accusations of vandalism, point-of-view, and nonsense are counter-productive, FixIslam. Please be grateful that I am ignoring your uncivil behavior and actually looking at the changes you have made.
May this dispute be resolved quickly and calmly and may Allah bless you both in this life and the Hereafter. joturner 17:09, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Please do not label everyone that disagrees with you as a "Fundamentalist POV warrior."
Pepsidrinka
17:56, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
There's so much churn here that I lose track, but someone doubled the size of the sources section, adding a lump of text and quotes that repeats a lot of what was said earlier. I have a strong suspicion that this may be a copyvio from somewhere. It would take a bit of research to figure out who added this and when. Is the editor reading here? Will the real Slim Shady please stand up? Relieve my mind and tell me it's not a copyvio. Zora 00:29, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
A good article quotes its sources and is verifiable. I saved the text of the historical view of Mohammed under
Historical Mohammed + added link in this article
Half of the sources is in Dutch, but I provided links + journal article + books partially accessible via books.google.com
Blubberbrein2
09:45, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
It's late here in Hawai'i, and even later in much of the rest of the world, so I ended up cleaning up some POV edits that were added in the last few hours.
First of all, I restored the Persian miniature. Autoshade, please, stop.
Second, I removed some recent edits re the Mecca-Medina wars that tended to cast the Meccans as the blackest of villains and the Muslims as pure innocents who were the subjects of aggression. I could make arguments that turned these claims on their head -- but I won't. This really isn't the place to discuss whether the matter -- if we did, it would take over the whole article. Let's try to keep the language here completely neutral, and confine the controversy to the Jihad and Muhammad as warrior articles.
Third, someone had turned the fate of the Banu Qurayza women and children from "slaves" to "captives". This is whitewashing. Ibn Ishaq says that "the apostle divided the property, wives, and children of Banu Qurayza among the Muslims". What is that but slavery?
Fourth, there were claims that Muhammad had offered a general amnesty to the Meccans. Not so -- some people were excepted. Also claims that people were free to convert or not -- not so. The Jews and Christians were allowed to keep their faith, but the so-called pagans HAD to submit, give the bay'ah. "I said to him, 'Submit and testify that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is the apostle of God before you lose your head,' so he did so." That's from Ibn Ishaq, re the conversion of Abu Sufyan.
Fifth, there were claims that the Meccans broke the treaty of Hudaybiya. Not necessarily so. Tribal allies of the Meccans and Muslims, who had been long-time enemies, clashed. Both the Meccans and the Muslims accused the other side of breaking the treaty. We can't say who was right, since there was a dispute.
Sixth, I took at look at the timeline again, and realized that there were matters presented there as fact that are in fact disputed, such as the date of the Constitution of Medina. There were items like "End of South Arabian high culture" which is just plain ... wrong. The timeline went past the death of Muhammad and ended with "Abu Bakr reestablishes the caliphate" which is misleaded and Sunni POV to boot.
I have tried to take out bias and I hope that I haven't added any. I hope that the other editors will be willing to discuss these edits bit by bit, rather than just doing a complete revert. Zora 09:27, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
As near as I can tell, this is a Shi'a story. I need to correct the Zulfiqar article to state that. It would be POV to link to that article. Zora 09:55, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Because it is such a MINOR matter. We've got links to Shi'a Islam and to Ali in the body of the article. There are many articles that mention Muhammad peripherally -- we can't list them all. So we need to pick just the important ones, the ones that might shed light on the character of Muhammad. Legends about a supposed sword no longer in existence don't qualify, IMHO. Zora 10:54, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
After the removal of the unsourced mosque image, I've moved the remaining images around to improve the article's balance. — JEREMY 13:55, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
According to the Red Hair talk page the prophet Muhammed is supposed to have had red hair. Does anybody know if this is true, please? 83.104.185.49 16:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Do people remember this guy? An Arab with red hair. But it's still unlikely that Muhammad had red hair. Aucaman Talk 23:47, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I say if it's useful and relevant, why not let it stay? Auca m an Talk 14:30, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
We have been through this earlier. The book is brought up by Muslims to PROVE that non-Muslims have a high regard for Muhammad. However, the book itself is not notable -- I hadn't heard of it before some editors tried to insert it here -- and it is being falsely puffed as an authoritative reference book just because it ranks Muhammad highly. It has zilch academic status. It is not notable and should be removed. Zora 22:34, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Tor Andrae's widely acclaimed biography of Muhammad, which was originally published 1932 in German, is, e.g., listed in the bibliography of the Encyclopaedia Britannica entry "Muhammad" (written by W. M. Watt!). My point is that what is good enough for the Encyclopaedia Britannica should be good enough for Wikipedia. [Source: "Muhammad." Encyclopædia Britannica, from Encyclopædia Britannica Ultimate Reference Suite 2005 DVD . Copyright © 1994-2004 Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.] --Editorius —Preceding unsigned comment added by Editorius ( talk • contribs)
--Editorius
"Non-Muslims generally consider him to be the founder of Islam" Is there proof of this? Why is it not better to write "Non-Muslims generally consider him to be the prophet (or messenger) of Islam"? Would anyone write that Jesus Christ "founded" Christianity? I would like to know this. RedCrescent 03:18, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Please do not remove the tag until you prove that this is true. Please see Jesus Christ - he is not said to be the "founder" of Christianity or Siddhartha_Gautama who is not said to be founder of Buddhism or Abraham who is not said to be founder of Judaism! RedCrescent 03:36, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
RC, you don't represent all Muslims. Several of the editors with whom you are arguing ARE Muslims. Look, you're a brand-new editor. You just got here. How about doing some real work, like, researching and writing, instead of heading for one of the more contentious articles on WP and trying to force it to your own POV (point of view)? For instance, there are a great many Muslims who lack biographical articles, and a great many Islam-related historical events that don't have articles, or have mere stubs of articles. Surely if you want people to learn more about Islam it is important to have full information here. Zora 04:31, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Aminz ruined the sentence, it should say "is believed by Muslims to be Islam's final prophet, sent to guide all of mankind with the message of the Qur'an, the last revelation of God." Why he did that I don't know. RedCrescent 04:43, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Timothy Usher 07:23, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Timothy Usher 06:44, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
You do not know what ALL muslims believe, you only know what some vocal Muslims have said they believe. Just because a person is born in a Muslim country does not mean that they believe what the Qu'ran says. In most cases they hold their own personal beliefs private , particularly in an atmosphere of heavy penalization for voicing divergent beliefs to the Qu'ran. But inevitably you will never get to know what "ALL" muslims believe. So we should rather say , what the Qu'ran states and what Muslims are required to believe. -- CltFn 04:57, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
If someone does not believe in Qur'an, he/she is not Muslim by definition. -- Aminz 05:00, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
The American Heritage dictionary calls him "Arab prophet of Islam" but Merriam Webster calls him "Arab prophet and founder" and Bartleby calls him "the name of the Prophet of Islam, one of the great figures of history, b. Mecca." So I think we should just say that non-Muslims consider him an Arab prophet of Islam and religious figure. Okay? RedCrescent 05:01, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I think the founder comment aught to be deleted. Use of the word "founder" suggests a contrived, human, rather than divine genesis of the faith. It sounds like a deliberate insinuation of skepticism, right into the intro of the article. You don't find "founder of Christianity" in the Jesus article. There is only a List of founders of major religions link in the "See also" section, where Muhammad and Jesus are listed. The link exits in this article also. That is as far as "founder" can be neutrally included.-- AladdinSE 08:24, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Did Muhammed write down the words that are in the Quran? Did Islam as most people know of it begin when the Quran was written? I think so. As to your question, Christians believe that the Holy Spirit is the "founder" of of the Christian faith. Christians believe that one becomes a Christian after being convicted of their sin by the Holy Spirit and calling on Jesus by name for salvation. Modern Christianity (Christianity when Jesus was present on earth could be seen as "contemporaneous" rather than "modern") was founded when Jesus ascended to Heaven and just prior, promised to send the Holy Spirit (see John 14:16-18 [2]). Suffice it to say, because Christians believe in the Trinity, it's not quite as simple to say which aspect of the Trinity is the founder. If indeed it's true that all three are one, then all three were together since the beginning. All that said, I would say that from a external historical standpoint, modern Christianity started at Pentacost, Judaism started when Jacob was named Israel by an angel and Islam when Muhammed wrote down the words in the Quran. That's how I'd peg it and I think it's a reasonable enough view. Merecat 09:59, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Merecat, your arguments have nought to do with NPOV and everything to do with a pronounced Christian sermon. "Non-Muslims often describe him as the founder of Islam" is a disputed, unsourced POV evaluation in direct contrast to the Jesus article. You advance as defense for your hypocritical stance an utterly Christian perspective that Jesus was present from the beginning, along with the Father, and therefore "founder" does not apply. Well, it's the non-Christians that are supposed to be the ones describing Jesus, so you can't use a Christian tenant to support a non-Christian description. "Founder" is POV and inappropriate in either article.-- AladdinSE 22:39, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Arsath wrote:
"I dont see anything wrong in any kafir saying Prophet is the founder of Islam, that is their point of view."
"In cultural terms, it is a derogatory term used to describe a non-muslim..." See Kuffr. Merecat 10:00, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Because I am quoting the wiki article for that word Kuffr. It's clearly a derogatory term. Whether it's true or not, it ought not to be used here as were are supposed to be civil. See WP:CIVIL. Merecat 10:09, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
If it's not "derogatory" then the wiki article about that word is in error. I urge you to stop injecting your POV and admit that you are not the arbiter of derogatory meaning. Merecat 10:25, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Then take this discussion to the talk page of that article. I'd guess that you will not find consensus there for your view, but best wishes trying. Merecat 10:29, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
FYI: Islam holds that non-Muslims are worthy of scorn. Any word earmarked specifically to describe them, is defacto scornful. Perhaps you would agree with that? Merecat 10:36, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi Timothy, I am not going to apologize if thats what you are expecting, Kafir is an Arabic word meaning a person who hides, denies, or covers the truth and it translates to English language as Infidel. (So I am Kafir to you as much as you are kafir to me). And it was not my intention to instigate your religious hatred or to show my religious hatred. Wikipedia is no place for children who cannot take a comment and get offended at the slightest misunderstanding. Its a place for intelectuals to share knowledge and act in good faith. Not a place to get offended and declare war like small children..
Article 19. Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers
What I presented was my point of view on the Muhammad talk page and talk pages are to express your point of view. Lets not waste anymore time on this. Please, Please, Please wikipedia is not the place to bring out our religious differences and fight over it. Mystic 10:25, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
See guys do u both agree that Timothy Usher had no business putting that comment on this talk page.. If she got offended by my comment she should only talk about it in my talk page not here.. this talk page is for muhammed article related discussion. She was only trying to get more people to sympathize her incorrect point of view and get everyone involved in a soup.. These are the kind of people who create relgious hatered and problems in this world (clearly when it could've been avoided). Lets not get caught in it.. Dont waste your time..Its not worth it. Mystic 11:02, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
So wait.. by getting offended by something that is meant to be used as a derogatory term shes being childish and trying to create religious hatred? So if someone calls you an a**h**e and you feel slighted, but their response is that its my opinion and youre getting offended at the slightest remarks? How about people take their own personal biases outside and not use derogatory remarks here, period. Because I have heard that word used plenty of times as an insult and if its used here, just because you decide that its not an insult right now, doesnt change that its used as one by others. Misfit
Okay Mr M.F, If a muslim calls another muslim a kafir (a non-believer) its derogatory, insulting. When somebody really is a non-believer I dont see anything wrong in calling, anybody a kafir, How do I believe that you heard that word being used as a insult just because you are saying so, maybe only you took at that way. If I call you a b**t**d does that make you one..Suppose if that is the truth and proven beyond doubt maybe I am not wrong in calling you that right?.. Thats the case with the use of Kafir. Now keep a cool head Mr M.F Mystic 18:10, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed that picture, and the caption, because the mosque really has nothing to do with that section, and because the caption was irretrievably POV. Non-Muslims do not believe in the reality of the Isra and Miraj, and hence would not describe Al-Aqsa as the site of the Isra and Miraj. Furthermore, there is much academic dispute over the identification of Al-Aqsa with "the furthest mosque". Some historians say that Muslims did not make this identification until much later. Zora 20:03, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi Zora, Muslims only identified Dome of the Rock as "the furthest mosque" much later, the original Al-Aqsa mosque remained the same, shall we change the caption and include the picutre, because I think its important and adds value to the article. Mystic 06:25, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Arsath,
Can I ask, what is the purpose of the Al Aqsa image? I recognize and appreciate that the caption has improved somewhat, and that it's no longer associated with vandalism of the other image, but am still curious as to what this adds.
Timothy Usher 08:08, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
After living with that section heading for a long time (in fact, I think I wrote it), I've decided that it's inaccurate. That is, Muslim scholars and Western scholars who based their work on traditional sources use many kinds of sources, not just Sira. They also call on hadith, explanations in tafsir (the occasions of revelation), military histories like Waqidi, etc. So is there a better section heading? You may not like the one I came up with, which is fine with me, but I think we need to be more accurate. Zora 20:45, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Starting the article with an argument doesn't make for easy reading, so I moved the whole thing to the bottom.
The editor whose name starts with C (sorry!) rewrote the sources section to make it very sceptical. I'm a sceptic myself, but I think that he overstated the case. Western academic scholars are generally MORE sceptical than devout Muslim scholars, but they certainly aren't all sceptics of the Wansbrough ilk. A lot of them take a much more centrist position. So I tweaked that section back. Zora 03:12, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I support the removal of the "founder" comment from the intro, and its discussion in a separate section. I have made some revisions, mainly dealing with what Muslims believe regarding what was actually founded by Muhammad, being the forms and traditions associated with Islam and Islamic worship. I elaborated on why he is not considered to the founder of the faith itself, as is he considered to be the instrument of revelation, bringer of tidings, as it were. That is what messengers and prophets do. -- AladdinSE 08:23, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't know why my edits were reverted wholesale! I thought they are quite mild and make things more clear. At least part of them were good I think. -- Aminz 09:02, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I personally was happy with that one sentence at the top. It had been there for many months. However, RedCrescent (who threw the apple of discord into the group and then disappeared) was strongly of the opinion that mentioning non-Muslim beliefs was discriminatory, a view that seems to have been adopted by several other Muslim editors. Since the sentence turned into an argument, I moved it to the bottom of the page. It's simply a matter of readability. Start simple and expand. The non-Muslim views are still there, they've just been moved. Zora 22:57, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Aminz, I reverted your edits, not because they were BAD, but because they were getting too detailed for the article. I think we talked at one point about writing an article on various Muslim traditions and their beliefs re the pre-existence of Muhammad, his sinlessness/humanity, his continuing existence ( Barelwi theology), etc., and you weren't sure you wanted to do it. If you want to get into Muhammad-ological discussions (like Christological discussions), then we should probably have a breakout article. This could get very big and very complex. Muslims have been speculating on the subject for millenia. Zora 08:59, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks -- Aminz 09:13, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Timothy Usher,
Question #1. Why my edits were reverted wholesale, when only one of its sentences was disputed?
Question #2. This sentence is supposed to say what Muslims believe. I didn't made things up. I quoted from the Qur'an. Being POV means that the view of all scholars is not provided here. While I am quoting directly from Qur'an, I can not reconcile myself with the statement that it is POV. Unless one tells me that Qur'an has contradictions regarding this issue. What I said was mentioned in the above passages, mostly in 2:133, 2:135. Could you please let me know your argument. Thanks. -- Aminz 10:20, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Dear Aminz,
It's 2:45 a.m. out here...going to bed. For now, just acknowledging receipt of your message, and promising to return tomorrow to address your questions. Thanks for engaging. Timothy Usher 10:41, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Good night. It is also 2:54 a.m. here. We should live in the same time zone I suppose. Thanks for your attention and bye for now. -- Aminz 10:54, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
They do agree that obedience of God is extremely important (e.g. in the second to last verse in the book of Ecclesiastes: "The end of the matter, all having been heard: fear God, and keep His commandments; for this is the whole man [i.e. the whole purpose of man].") In the case of Christians, as far as I understand the issue is related to Trinity AND the Qur'an claims that salvation is achieved through believing in God and being obedient to him rather than being forgiven through Christ’s blood.
The keyword is "generally." There are many people who aren't Muslim and yet are educated on Islam and thus know how the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is viewed. But we're talking about generally. Perhaps "Many people" instead of specifically "non-Muslims" think of the Prophet as the founder of Islam would work better? But again, I think this miniscule detail is being dissected far too much. joturner 06:06, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
What do you mean "I'm not joining in talk"? Is the expectation that I'm going to be logged into WP 18 hours a day? I don't have much of a life, but I have a teeny tiny one. You should give people 24 hours to respond -- or longer. As for Christians and Jews agreeing that earlier religious figures were Muslims -- that's YOUR report, Aminz, and it's hearsay. I've certainly never read anything by any Christian or Jew asserting so.
This whole debate was touched off by someone who seems like a devout Muslim with a chip on his shoulder, demanding veto power over descriptions of non-Muslim belief. We gave proofs, in the form of Google stats, and quotes, but no, that's not enough ... we now have to have a looong argument about exactly what Muslims and non-Muslims believe, which is rapidly turning into a theological debate with strong infusions of original research. Which means that you could write volumes on the subject and it would never be settled. Why don't we just restore that one sentence, that has been up there for over a year, and go on to doing some real work on an encyclopedia? The
Ziyarat article could use more pilgrimage sites and more pictures.
Zora
09:35, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Timothy, the meaning is OK, but I don't like the style at all. You're using three big words where one little one would do. Let me work it over -- tomorrow. Right now I need to go to bed because I have a job interview. Zora 10:12, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
"This whole debate was touched off by someone who seems like a devout Muslim with a chip on his shoulder, demanding veto power over descriptions of non-Muslim belief. We gave proofs, in the form of Google stats, and quotes, but no, that's not enough" All they can do is make accusation against me (I expect apology from this person, I have no chip on my shoulder, but maybe you do since you want to impose something that others disagree with) and other people but "Google stats" are not academic or good. It seems like "original research". Do not add back until we agree and do not ignore my comments or curse me because you think I am "devout" Muslim. Thank you. RedCrescent 23:18, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
RedCrescent, what don't you understand? It is a violation of Wikipedia policy ( WP:NPOV) to include a sentence such as "Muhammad was a prophet," without a qualifier such as "Muslims believe..." The 5/6 of the world's population that is not Muslim tends to disagree. In the same respect, saying "Muhammad was not a prophet" is also a violation. However, saying "Non-Muslims believe..." is neutral. Now that this has been explained, it is also a violation of Wikipedia policy to discuss only one POV. Non-Muslims consider Muhammad to be the creator of Islam, and as that is a significant majority view in the world, there is no reason why it should not be included. — Aiden 00:57, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Can someone please summarize the issue here briefly? I lost track of exactly what the issue is, if there really still is one. We are real close having Muhammad delisting this article from Wikipedia:Good articles as this debacle is starting to destablize the article. I'm not saying you all shouldn't make changes to the article, but this protracted debate isn't helping matters. Everyone, please refrain from letting your personal religious beliefs interfere with keeping this article of good quality. joturner 00:26, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Ansadar should join the discussion - that is supposing he hasn't already done so under a different name - as the source he is demanding was given a long time ago by Editorius. Timothy Usher 02:33, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I now support removing the section "Was Muhammad the founder of Islam" just because of Timothy's argument and not that of Zora or Aiden.-- Aminz 02:48, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Timothy, I prefer to remove this section since Zora (and sometimes Aiden) consider my opinion as "original research" and my personal theories. They never quoted any Qur'anic verse to support their argument, but just claimed that I am re-interpreting my religon and that their interpretation is the authentic one. In any case, your edit seems good to me since it didn't have their argument. -- Aminz 03:37, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
On the edit summary, I'd meant to write, I don't think this section merits deletion. If nothing else, the discussion here has shown this to be a point of great interest to all, and potentially very illuminating to readers. Timothy Usher 06:30, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
the lenghty discussion above seems a little self-indulgent. Wikipedia is not a discussion forum. Yes, the sentence "non Muslims generally consider him the founder of Islam" could be improved. The problem lies with the semantics of "founder", it doesn't sit quite right with me either. So instead of going off on intricate tangents, you should cogitate about what exactly the phrase means to express and how its wording may be improved. I can think of replacing founder with "instigator" or something, but I believe it is common to describe Muhammad as the "prophet of Islam" even by non-Muslims: that's just the role he plays within Islam. Sybil is also described as an "oracle of Delphi" even by people who are not adherents of the Ancient Greek religion, or who do not believe in oracles altogether. If Sybil can be an oracle, why shouldn't Muhammad be a prophet, even from an atheist pov (*shrugs*). dab (ᛏ) 07:27, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
google shows that "founder of islam" has some currency, apparently especially as a term used by critics of Islam. But the question whether this is accurate is not so much a matter of being or not being a Muslim, but of being aware of the Arabic language. Islam means about as much as "Faith" in English. Now, in English, "Islam" is used to refer to "faith" according to the teachings of Muhammad, but to Arabic ears, the statement that "Muhammad founded Islam" sounds about as weird as "Jesus founded Faith". RedCrescent is right that Columbia Encyclopedia, certainly not a Muslim source, has "Muhammad is the Prophet of Islam" perfectly acceptable. Britannica however has "founder of the religion of Islam", and the 1911 Britannica [4] had "founder of the religious system called in Europe after him Mahommedanism, and by himself Islam", both without implication that "founder" should be controversial or reserved for use by non-Muslims. In my opinion, we should say something like:
dab (ᛏ) 13:24, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
The American Heritage dictionary calls him "Arab prophet of Islam" but Merriam Webster calls him "Arab prophet and founder". RedCrescent 01:38, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Would it be better to write: "...was an Arab religious figure, and the FOUNDING FIGURE of the world religion of Islam" in the introductory sentence? This is a little more ambiguous and therefore potentially less offensive while still implying that he can be considered the founder. It would have the added advantage of better covering a minority view that questions the historical existence of Mohammed alltogether (on account of the total lack of independent and contemporary historical sources, not unlike the situation in Christianity). 80.135.228.138 01:24, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I delisted this article because of the recent instability. joturner 03:03, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Timothy, Qur'an sometimes prescribes different laws for Muhammad himself. The permission of having more than four wives is part of it. It is fair to have all of them rather than only one of them. For example, he was obliged to pray, between 1/3 to 1/2 of the nights:
I think we should have a section and talk about the Muhammad's personal obligation and permissions separately. It is not fair to just mention that permission. Thanks-- Aminz 09:28, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I have added comment as response to dab above. RedCrescent 12:51, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
That section should NOT be there. Having a slew of Qur'an verses is bad enough, but having them summarized is worse. This should be in a breakout article on Islamic views of Muhammad's nature and character or something like that. We could start that with the Qur'an verses, which for Muslims is the final word on who Muhammad IS, and then go on to discussions of Muhammad's sinlessness, whether or not he was a hanif, Shi'a beliefs, Barelwi beliefs, etc. Before I go start the article and move those verses out, does anyone have any better suggestion for a title? Zora 21:59, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I invite those interested in POV issues on this page to visit Musaylimah. I've tried to clean it up to some extent, but you can check the history to see what it was like to begin with.
From the neutral point of view, how are Musaylimah's claims different from those of Muhammad? Well one way, Muhammad was first, making Musaylimah sound like rather the cheap knockoff. And perhaps he was. But I still think a look at this page is worthwhile to see what some wikipedia editors consider NPOV when dealing with someone who their religious understanding derides rather than reveres - at least as unsympathetic as anything (besides vandalism) I've seen on this page, or elsewhere as an example of "Islamophobia".
I'm not entirely comfortable with getting rid of purported examples of Musaylimah's verses, as they are informative, but they were clearly (and explicitly) chosen to make him look ridiculous. I think all of us familiar with the Qur'an realize that the same could be done by an unscrupulous editor, and that regardless of their suposedly impeccable pedigree (in contrast to the secondhand examples of Muslaylimah) they would likely be deleted as POV.
Not sure where I'm going with this, but I can say this: someone claims to be getting word-for-word revelations from God, many might find this inherently dubious if not ridiculous. We can debate to what degree this POV should be represented, but if this article were any guide...
Any feedback?
Timothy Usher 05:19, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
I pruned some hagiographic material -- someone had added something re how much other Meccans loved and trusted Muhammad. Also, someone had added details on Muhammad's last illness that are simply not found in sira. The statement that he lost his voice is contradicted by many passages in Ibn Ishaq.
I slightly rewrote the section on Muhammad's marriages, which I thought had become unbalanced in the Muslim direction. However, I tried to avoid specifics, which are, IMHO, better discussed in the breakout article. If we tried to put them in this article, it would double in size and triple in dissension.
I don't think I've done anything controversial, but other editors will doubtless check out the diffs and comment. Zora 06:56, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Muhammad is an important prophet for both the Druze and the Baha'i faiths. Just as the Islam view is mentioned in the introduction to the Jesus article, Baha'i and Druze should be mentioned in the introduction here (NPOV !), albeit in a short form. I think the sentence: "He is also venerated as a prophet by the Druze and by the Bahá'í." is an appropriate solution. That those faiths are already mentioned on the Islam page does not concern the article on Muhammad. In fact, their mentioning is probably even more relevant here. 80.135.202.209 23:01, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Jossi restored the edit. I repeat, it's unfair to mention SOME of the traditions, and not others, and if you mention them all, you end up with an unreadable intro para. You could summarize by saying that he is also recognized as a prophet by other religious traditions deriving from Islam and then link to a later section. Zora 23:18, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
All that simply doesn't belong on top. It confuses matters. Zora 01:25, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
But that would be factually wrong. I just checked your examples and found that Zikri and Ahmadiyya are indeed muslim sects (like Alevites). In contrast to this the Baha'i religion is an independent religion not at all derived from Islam. I think we should drop the Druze and write "He is also venerated by some other religions, including the Baha'i faith." and then link to a new section like the one you propose. I cannot see how this 'confuses matters', it is very easy to understand and it belongs in the introduction precisely so that it is NPOV and not Islam only. The Baha'i should be named, because of their relative size and international importance (for example consultative status with WHO, UNICEF and other United Nations agencies). 80.135.202.209 01:51, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Not quite what I wanted, but I see Aiden's point. I think we should have a section on the views of the smaller religions (of which the Baha'i are the most important) and it should be situated _not too far_ from the intro. If we put it at the bottom, it does nothing about the problem (too Muslim POV). 80.135.202.209 03:09, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, the Islamic view is obviously the most prominent and should be discussed first. After the Biography section, sure, there should be a section for views according to other religions. — Aiden 03:30, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
The thing that I think is POV is that nothing potentially negative is presented, even though there are ample attestations - from Islamic sources, naturally - that would be of great interest to readers.
I don't mean to sound hyperbolic, but by modern standards Muhammad would be considered a war criminal - executing POW's, ransoming others, poisoning wells with dead bodies, etc., and a dictator, ordering the excecution of poets and the like. Saying he's a war criminal would be anachronous and POV...but going into more detail about his life, including the ugly ones, would go a long way towards explaining why (one reason at least) Muhammad is so controversial to this day. And more importantly, would make the article more interesting and more informative.
However, given what I've seen on Islam-related pages, anything remotely negative, regardless of truth, is quickly vandalized by a small band of his followers. I personally don't understand how the perfection (well okay he was abrupt with a homeless guy once) of Muhammad's person fits into the worship God alone thing anyhow - how do Muhammad's errors (much less of the Caliphs) reflect on God? But it seems a large number of people think this way.
If it sounds like I'm just complaining, and doing nothing about it, that's true, but only because the latter takes more time.
Timothy Usher 03:20, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
While your edits are well-intentioned, they are unnecessary. As the entire section is titled "His life according to Islamic traditions," there is no need to place qualifiers in front of every section or sentence. The sub-section is titled "The First Revalations" because that's how the event is reffered to "according to Islamic traditions." Take a look at the Jesus article. There is a sub-section titled "Resurrection and Ascension," but it is under the section "Life and teachings based on the Gospels." There is no need to title the sub-section "Reports of Resurrection and Ascension," if you see what I mean. — Aiden 03:46, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I removed some detailed info from the sources section and replaced it with a more general recent quote from an academic. Timothy told me to take it up with the creator. Um, I am the creator. I wrote that section a LONG time ago, and I now think it's too detailed for the article. It's distracting. I've put that info into the Historiography of early Islam article, which we should probably link, and which I need to update. So the info isn't gone, it's just in a breakout article.
Does that satisfy your concerns, Timothy? Zora 09:46, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Timothy, the sentences I rewrote are just plain UGLY. Bad prose. I didn't change the sense, I just made things plainer. "Item of debate" is clunky phrasing. "Matter for debate" or "debateable" would be better. Saying that an "item of debate" is a "notion" is also a strange juxtaposition. Surely you should be able to SEE the difference? Zora 09:57, 4 April 2006 (UTC) (proofread and copyedit for an exiguous living) (late at night and tired) (I'll rephrase tomorrow -- I'm sure I can think of dozens of ways to say this and you'll accept one of them, I'm sure.)
This section was added after a consensus was acheived among editors involved in a dispute. It mentions some religions which consider Muhammad important, but is by all means a work in progress and will need additions of other prominent views, such as those of Christianity and Judaism. Mentioning the views of other religions by no means indicates importance. WP:NPOV suggests views based on prominence not importance. The title of this section should be straightfoward: "Religious perspectives," not another pro-Muhammad soapbox where we discuss just how important he is. — Aiden 01:45, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
This section was called 'religious perspectives' in parallel to the Jesus article. That was just a working title to start it (as per talk), but didn't address the problem of where to put other, non-religious views (historical science, philosophical movements, ...). So I think we could either have two independent sections, one for 'Perspectives of other religions' and one for 'Other views', or we could use these two headings as subsections in an 'Other Perspectives' section.
My other issue: why was this moved to stand after the 'Historical significance' section? We should have it right after the islamic perpective (the biography section), so that all POVs are in one place (assuming the historical significance is more or less NPOV). 80.135.201.251 10:35, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
William Muir's bio is extremely old and pro-Christian. I don't think it makes sense to have it here. It is of historical interest only. Zora 07:01, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
I've restored the links you removed because your edits only removed the views of Nonmuslims. The fact that Muir may be pro-Christian is fine as the link is under the "Nonmuslim biographies" section. I have also added the word 'critical' to the section to highlight this. — Aiden 19:15, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Don't the critics have anything NEWER than a 100-year-old biography to offer? I hate to send people to something that, while well-written, is antiquated. Zora 20:31, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Why no picture? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.239.147.95 ( talk • contribs)
Are you referring to a picture of Prophet Muhammad? That is because muslims believe that representing Muhammad as an image, in the form of drawing, painting, idol making etc is forbidden, because then it gives the impression that muhammad is an idolatry figure to be worshiped. This is woring. Muslims beleive Muhammad was a Prophet of God, and that he was given a divine message for all humanity. Allah (god) is the one to be worshiped. In comparison with Christianity, where Jesus is the son or a part of him, and therefore, a figure to be worhsiped for christians -- Aadamh 11:19, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
What does this have to do with wikipedia?
Timothy Usher
11:20, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
It has something to do with the Muhammad artcile. This is the discussion for the Muhammad article is it not? Or is it a place for discussion about wikipedia? -- Aadamh 11:23, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
You misunderstand me. Your comments are about why some Muslims believe that images of Muhammad are undesirable, but they've no obvious application to wikipedia because wp is NPOV. If we were fortunate enough to have a photograph, we'd post it. Timothy Usher 11:33, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
By 'we' you mean 'you'..? -- Aadamh 11:36, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, didn't mean to sound arrogant like that. Though of course I'd post it. And admit it, you'd look. Who wouldn't want to know how Muhammad really looked? Timothy Usher 11:43, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Any drawing or picture would never be an accurate physical representation of Muhammad. There are descriptions of him in hadiths. But noone who is alive knows what he looked like. Those who did (that were alive during his lifetime) are dead. It is natural curiosity to want know these things, and for the purpose of academia, you could post such images as false representations, and personal imagination but it would never be accepted it as an image of the Prophet Muhammad himself; it would be just another image of any human being, anyone else. And believe me, if you posted such a picture i do not think it would be widely popular. -- Aadamh 12:05, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
And one more thing, how are we meant to accurately record the life of Muhammad if we do not relate to islamic traditions? Should we just assume and guess and put down NPOV? -- Aadamh 11:38, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
He thinks he owns this article. He always reverts. Admins should do something about him. RedCrescent 07:31, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I look through many of his edits and looks like he might have strong anti-Muslim bias. What a surprise. RedCrescent 07:33, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Because we have breakout articles for all the stuff that's controversial. Muhammad as warrior, Muhammad's marriages, and Banu Qurayza. If we were to include ALL the controversies, and all the documentation and argumentation pro and con, this article would quadruple in size. It's already longer than desirable.
Trying to pack everything into one article is "main-articlism" and it's pernicious. We're a wiki, and we can have breakout articles.
This article is a delicate balance between the editors who want it to read like a mosque handout and those who want it to denounce Islam. Breakout articles let us keep the balance. Zora 07:54, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
This whole section is unsourced. The information in the section also talk about Islam in general and has nothing to do with Muhammad. I propose removing it. Aucaman Talk 19:45, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Even if the material is sourced, there's still another problem. The section does not even discuss Mohammad and it has nothing to do with whether or not he founded Islam. If you want the section to stay you should at least rewrite it to make it more relevant to this article/section name. Aucaman Talk 00:07, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
this is appallingly self-centred. Just because some editors fancy to debate a point ad nauseam on talk, you figure it is encyclopedic and deserves its own section, with a header phrased as a question? Style, people, and notability, and encyclopedicity. Yes, and main-articleism. dab (ᛏ) 08:26, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Timothy, the section on the founder of Islam seems stable enough. It gives a fair and un-biased account of how Muhammad is viewed as a prophet and founder. It is very neurtral and well written in my opinion. We should ask the moderator of the 'good articles list' what constitutes as a 'good' article, because i think this article is very good and getting better all the time and i will do all i can to make it better. -- Aadamh 11:32, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know who moderates the 'good articles' list? -- Aadamh 11:34, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
This section only gives a 'fair and un-biased account' if you don't go on deleting non-muslim views. 80.135.226.166 20:21, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Another thought: Maybe _both_ subsections (muslim views, other views) should be deleted, since they deal with Islam rather than Muhammad. Only the sentences "Non-Muslims generally consider Muhammad to be the founder or creator of Islam. Most Muslims accept that Muhammad founded Islam as a historical, political and social entity, but object to the notion that he founded the religion of Islam." should remain, under their own heading 'Muhammad as founder of Islam' (but not inside the 'Muhammad in Islam' section!). Notice that I removed the word 'strongly', otherwise it would have to say 'Non-Muslims generally strongly consider ..." 80.135.226.166 20:52, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I do not think it is necessary to delete muslim views. For the purpose of learning , we need to understand the status of muhammad in islamic culture and tradition as well as opposing views because it is part of his lfe and cannot be merely pushed aside. If we just put generalised comments for the sake of non-muslims getting too confused or thinking it is too boring for them, then it will be not a fair article or accurate. However in this particular section, 'is muhammad the founder?' is more of an issue to be addressed to non-muslims , because for non-muslims there can be misconceptions / uncertainties. Therefore I am inclined to agree with you on this particular issue. -- Aadamh 22:50, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
What we need is some kind of balance. That the islamic religion considers other religions as false or corrupted may be an accurate description of it's teachings. When it is obviously directed at _certain_ other religions (Judaism, Christianity), their views warrant mentioning in accordance with WP:NPOV, just as the accused in a court of law gets the right of reply. However, the contents of islamic religious beliefs generally belong to the Islam article, not the Muhammed article. To replicate everything that's on the main Islam article here, by connecting it to Muhammad in some way or other, would be nonsensical.
To say that the section xyz is addressed to non-muslims and the section abc is addressed to muslims is completely contrary to what Wikipedia is about! The Article would be NPOV if non-muslims were presented with the muslim view, AND muslims presented with the non-muslim view. Sadly, the latter is mostly missing here! As for what are 'misconceptions', well, now, that's purely POV! 80.135.226.166 23:37, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Someone had reorganized the last few sections of the article into two sections, Islamic views of Muhammad and other views. That may not be such a bad idea BUT -- it was so badly implemented as to be confusing. Non-Muslim and Muslim views were mixed up through all the sections, making the headers pointless. I returned to the way it was previously.
I've already said that it may be a good idea to have a "Islamic views of Muhammad" article, just because there is no one view. Muhammadology can be just as vexing for Muslims as Christology is for Christians. If we can develop such an article, then we can summarize it briefly in the main Muhammad article. Trying to do the development IN the Muhammad article is probably a mistake.
I'd do it myself, if it weren't that I'm overwhelmed. Money-earning work to do, about a square cubic yard of books to read stacked all over my house ... isn't there anyone else who wants to write the article? Zora 00:03, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Zora, I am really really sorry. It is just hard to start the article. But I will start the article by today(I hope I would be able to gather enough stuff). My english is not also good, so the article will have lots of mistakes :D. -- Aminz 01:43, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Zora, your suggestion for an article on the Islamic views of Muhammad was good and I had already promised to start the article. I had to be quick otherwise it was probable that I could never fulfill my promise.
Can you please have a look at Islamic views of Muhammad? I was thinking of three main parts:
The doctrine of Sinlessness of Muhammad When was Muhammad’s soul created? Muslim description of Muhammad
Any idea about the general structure of the article?-- Aminz 04:26, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I should leave now, but will get back soon. Can you please let me know your idea about the general structure of the article. thx -- Aminz 04:29, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
This section was moved and shortened due to complaints about length and summary deletion by other editors. The argument that other Abrahamic faiths don't think they're corruptions of Islam is not relevant to this section, in which Islam's views of other faiths are mentioned tangentially in order to explain how Muslims could consider people like Jesus to be followers of Islam. — JEREMY 06:39, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Other editors think it relevant. Upon which editors' behalf, specifically, do you claim to speak? Timothy Usher 08:16, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Were I not to assume good faith, the current revert-pattern might seem like an attempt to tag-team me into a 3RR violation. I note that my "reverts" are actually three different versions I've offered in an attempt to find a wording solution satisfactory to all. It starts to get more than a little frustrating when my considered efforts are blanket-reverted by editors who seem to be pushing for the whole section to be deleted. — JEREMY 13:40, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
The issue is not that other faiths are 'mentioned tangentially', but that jewish and christian prophets and the christian messiah are called by name. Even if you do that indirectly, like for example '...prophets [and that's already POV] of the other abrahmic religions were muslims...' or '... teachings of the other monotheistic religions are corrupted...', you effectively bring these figures and religions into play, and then WP:NPOV demands the mentioning of other views. 80.135.255.49 18:44, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I was about to argue that if all mentioning of other religion's 'personnel' was removed (and the religions themselves not even appeared indirectly), their views were not necessary in this section. But what would then be a good starting point for different "Muhammad the founder" POVs? Through clever writing you could indeed minimize the apparent need for 'the other view'. Yet that would be catastrophic for the quality of Wikipedia articles that deal with religious beliefs, because _every_ religious belief is POV by definition! What we have now (muslim views and other views), is a perfect vehicle to achieve NPOV on the founder question. This is very important, if muslims are to understand and to learn the views of non-muslims concerning Muhammad. (And yes, the length-argument is truly silly.) 80.135.255.49 20:52, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
The list of links to online biographies was getting longer and longer. I deleted the duplicate link to MSA, one link that was just to a proselytizing site, and then picked some links that seemed representative and not too kooky. I may have made bad choices; I'm not at all sure of myself. I request the help of the Muslim editors here. We need only the best of the links; that means most informative and best written. We need a Sufi version, a Salafi version, perhaps a modernist version if one exists, maybe a Shi'a version ... not more than five, say. We can't have five links to Salafi or Wahhabi sites. We need to be even-handed.
I'm getting better at sussing out the motives of the various sites, but I still make mistakes ... so help from the Muslim editors IS needed. Zora 07:48, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Here is a website in many languages describing our Prophet Muhammad (s.a.s): http://www.islamway.com/mohammad
It would be great to put this as an external link for the biographie
An IPA pronunciation key is needed for this entry. I'd provide one myself but I'm not sure of the correct pronunciation of Muhammed. Agateller 13:57, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Anyone here use it ( http://wapipedia.org)? I'm kind of new to it, and there doesn't seem to be a talk/editing facility. So I'm going to post this here, hope that's okay. Their article on the Prophet Mohammed includes the following text:
By his own standards, the continuing traditions of social justice in the Islamic World, of methods and knowledge of science, history and medicine as they evolved in the modern world (thanks to his profound influence driving Muslims to literacy and inquiry), and the prayers of over one billion Muslims, many of whom pray for him five times a day (or attach " peace be upon him" after each mention of his name), render Muhammad arguably the most influential man in all history, an honour often reserved for Jesus in the West. Even those historians who have deplored his influence and considered it to have retarded the growth of its chief rival faith, Christianity, express grudging admiration for the man.
and this:
To the traitors inside Medina it must have come as a surprise when the 10,000-strong force of Abu Sufyan failed to cross a trench dug around Medina by order of Muhammad, as the Persian scribe Salman e-Farsi had suggested to him. After the retreat of Abu Sufyan and his forces, the Muslims directed their attention towards the groups that had committed treason to the Charter of Medina. The munafiqun quickly crumbled, and their leader Abd Allah ibn Ubayy pledged allegiance to Muhammad. The Muslims then besieged the Banu Qurayza, who had intrigued against them. They had the opportunity of choosing Muhammad as an arbitrator, but instead the Banu Qurayza chose Saad ibn Muadh, the leader of their former allies, the Aus.
And this is its take on the Battle of Badr, 624 CE, which is markedly different to that found in the Wikipedia article (which raises doubts about the aftermath of the battle):
On March 15, 624 near a place called Badr, the two forces clashed. Though outnumbered 800 to 300 in the battle, the Muslims met with success, killing at least 45 Makkans, including Abu Jahl, and taking 70 prisoners; whereas only 14 Muslims died. To the Muslims this appeared as a divine vindication of Muhammad's prophethood, and he and all the Muslims rejoiced greatly. Following this victory, assassinations eliminated Medinans who had satirized Muhammad, and the victors expelled a hostile Jewish clan. Virtually all the remaining Medinans converted and Muhammad became de facto ruler of the city.
I had the idea that Wapipedia was a direct transfer of Wikipedia articles onto Wap, but it seems not. Timbudds@acasa.ro
If the goal of an encyclopedia is to be accurate then only things that are true should be in it. This is the logic I am pursuing.
If you look up the word "inaccuracy" and "true" on dictionary.com the you will find that inaccuracy is defined as "containing or characterized by error" and that the word true is defined "Consistent with fact or reality".
Since none of the pictures depicting prophet Mohammed (PBUH) are actually of him, but most probably of some other person (or just made up) then if those images are to be included then one can not suggest that the purpose of this encyclopedia is to be accurate. If there is no desire to make Wikipedia accurate then really it is meaningless and has no value.
If someone can "prove" that one of these pictures is actually of him and not someone else's image then at least I will have to cede acceptance of the picture on the front of historical accuracy.
Of course even a historicly accurate picture is still not beneficial because the next issue is what is the educational value of that picture. How is someone learning enhanced by it, unless we are also making Wikipedia for the illiterate who can only look at pictures. Autoshade
I must agree with Autoshade: Unless the picture provides a valuable, educational purpose, it should otherwise not be included in the article. Sure, I agree that learning about how the Persian interpretation of the image of the prophet and how “Muslims viewed Muhammad” are important topics; it is just that they should be placed in articles and other headings that relate to these concepts.
Placing the picture in the article, especially under the heading of “veneration” is sort of ironic: Muslims do not praise Muhammad by illustrations of him; they do quite the opposite and to prevent his imagery. Also, the purpose of placing the picture shouldn’t be for the sole point of creating controversy; the article was created for educating and providing factual information which the article will do fine without placing the Muhammad image in it. Stoa 21:49, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I am not a Salafi, I just do not understand why after 3 & 1/2 years without a picture it was necessary to add an image to the page. The first image was added by Zeno_of_Elea on 2005-07-03 without a description of reason. It was deleted 3 or 4 times in the following days but was repeatedly re-inserted. The idea of a portrate appears to me to have been treated as cannon thought it was never on the page before. It was finally discussed and the agreement was to have a veiled picture at the bottom of the page. Those are the facts, now my POV; NPOV seems to be determined by the number of people who support a particular side of a view, as in our case by the people who label me a Salafi. Ultimately I would never edit the page on Jews and I would respect Xtians by not adding an "Islamic" section because I know it would cause trouble. So I am asking that some respect and understanding be practiced as is mentioned in WP:Civility - Autoshade 07:14, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, Autoshade went ahead and removed the miniature. I restored it. Zora 08:26, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
On Resolving disputes is states "Do not simply revert changes in a dispute. When someone makes an edit you consider biased or inaccurate, improve the edit, rather than reverting it." I have improved it. There is still a link to the picture on the page, but without actually showing the picture. - Autoshade 14:46, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
3RR hit, done for today, See you tomorrow Autoshade 00:31, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
List of people known as father or mother of something lists Muhammad as "Father of Islam". This sounds really odd to me. Thoughts? -- 201.51.208.156 16:03, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
The Battle of Badr is a featured article, so -- as I expected -- it and various connected articles are getting lots of attention. Including this one.
I removed the fantasy picture of Muhammad from European sources. Adding it seemed like pure provocation to me. I also removed someone's notation that any mention of Muhammad must be followed by PBUH. WP doesn't issue orders, especially orders for religious observances. I also removed a long section on Muhammad's appearance that seems to have been sparked by the cartoon controversy. Lots of descriptions of Muhammad, old pictures of Muhammad, etc. I don't think that we have such sections in the case of most people who died before photography and without having been the subject of realistic portraiture. It also seems somewhat like intentional provocation.
It could be that that material could be spun off into a breakout article and then linked to the main page, as we've done with other controversial topics. Zora 19:23, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I took dab's suggestion and created Depiction of Muhammad. It's kind of stubby at the moment and needs lots more work. We should have some quotes from the earliest Muslim sources, like Ibn Sa'd. I have the relevant volume of Ibn Sa'd, so I try to find a good description and insert it later. We might also want to have some of the later, more fanciful and mythical, descriptions.
I think the article should have real pictures, not just links. Could someone add some MUSLIM pictures? Also, need links to cartoon controversy and possibly Satanic Verses (novel), as that involved verbal depictions that some people felt were disrespectful. External links would be good too.
I won't link it to the main Muhammad article and the cartoon article until it's readier for prime time ... but if someone else does it, I won't be upset. Zora 22:40, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
should Muhammad be placed in the slave owner Cat.?
He also raped his slaves. Not that my fellow muslims don't desperately try to hide this fact. Separating Muhammad the man from Muhammad the prophet is hard to do, especially when so many fundamentalists fill the faith. Fixislam 21:56, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
In my opinion, the Muhammed image I have posted here should be added to the article. Since it was crafted by Muslims, it is unoffensive. Any agreements, disagreements?--
FelineFanatic13
talk
Ys, I mind. Please don't remove the pictures, don't remove the calligraphy. Zora 00:03, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
"..I see no point in showing Muhammed's name in Arabic. " Then you don't understand the Muslim culture. Calligraphy and writing have tradtionally held paramount importance. Most of the decriptions of the Prophet come not from paintings of him (as do that of famous Europeans), but from imagery of his written descriptions. Bless sins 07:20, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
ok, so FelineFanatic is just here for WP:POINT. I still support addition of an Ottoman image to the "veneration" section, where it belongs. There are no images in the rest of the article, because the article is about a largely aniconic tradition. I mean, there are no images on Atheism either, we don't need images just for the sake of them, we only need them where they document the subject. Persian and Ottoman images document Persian and Ottoman veneration for Muhammad, period. Where we are treating Persian and Ottoman verneration, these images are proper, regardless of whether they offend other Muslims ( WP:NOT censored). Most of this article does not deal with Ottoman times, so the images are only appropriate in the section where they are now. We could do with another calligraphy to grace the top of the article, since that's how Muhammad is typically symbolized. dab (ᛏ) 08:47, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I must say I find it strange how there is so much vandalism of the Muhammad image, and none of the purported image of God. Is there someone whose religion allows images of God, but not of Muhammad? Timothy Usher 09:31, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Why do people want to remove this? Those who want to remove it would have a better case if they come up with alternative pictures. Aucaman Talk 22:51, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Autoshade, please note that this article is called *Muhammad*, not the Dome of the Rock. An image of Muhammad is thus on-topic. It is obvious that your change is motivated by religious taboo, not a desire to improve the article. Further, your caption treats Muhammad's ascent to heaven as a fact, which to you no doubt it is, but that is POV.
Timothy Usher 19:11, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Anyone here disagree that BlatherAndBlatherscite is a troll? -- Zero 09:47, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. I find it trollish for you to place this sort of notice here, too. Fixislam 19:36, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
I think this is used frequently enough to be mentioned somewhere in the first paragraph. A lot of the readers want to know what this means and having it hidden somewhere at the end of the article is not going to help. Aucaman Talk 10:11, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Aucaman, the info is there, it's just not in the place you want it to be (up front). Please let go of this. Zora 01:32, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Alright, so there is a revert/edit war upon us. That being said; I think a comprimise is possible here, if the blanket changes and charges of vandalism end. I'll go through the differences between the two versions piece by piece.
The introduction: Transliterations are very important especially for those who find it a bother to open those sound files. I also think Pepsidrinka's version fixes the odd statement that "Mohammed" is the most common way to transliterate the Prophet's name. The comment about the root at the end of the intro is a bit unnecessary, but I'm going to have to go with Pepsidrinka on this section.
The summary: The comment above the patron pagan deity looks like something of note. But the comment about the sultanate with the harem doesn't seem to make sense. A country with a private room for women? Eliminate that statement, but keep the one about the pagan deity.
Family life: I don't see anything wrong with FixIslam's version here.
The picture: Oh yes… the picture. FixIslam clearly has decent motives (as his/her user page shows). But I find it hard to believe that someone who is rallying for positive change in Islam and someone who feels pbuh is not necessary after the name of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is removing the veiled picture. It clearly is relevant to the article. This has recently been a hot issue, but those removing the picture have failed to provide a reason for doing so.
Notes: I'm not exactly sure why this section was removed. Change it back to Pepsidrinka's version.
The template: I'm not sure why this was removed either, so re-instate the template.
All in all, I think the issue here is that FixIslam made a large number of edits at the same time without any clear reason. The accusations of vandalism, point-of-view, and nonsense are counter-productive, FixIslam. Please be grateful that I am ignoring your uncivil behavior and actually looking at the changes you have made.
May this dispute be resolved quickly and calmly and may Allah bless you both in this life and the Hereafter. joturner 17:09, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Please do not label everyone that disagrees with you as a "Fundamentalist POV warrior."
Pepsidrinka
17:56, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
There's so much churn here that I lose track, but someone doubled the size of the sources section, adding a lump of text and quotes that repeats a lot of what was said earlier. I have a strong suspicion that this may be a copyvio from somewhere. It would take a bit of research to figure out who added this and when. Is the editor reading here? Will the real Slim Shady please stand up? Relieve my mind and tell me it's not a copyvio. Zora 00:29, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
A good article quotes its sources and is verifiable. I saved the text of the historical view of Mohammed under
Historical Mohammed + added link in this article
Half of the sources is in Dutch, but I provided links + journal article + books partially accessible via books.google.com
Blubberbrein2
09:45, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
It's late here in Hawai'i, and even later in much of the rest of the world, so I ended up cleaning up some POV edits that were added in the last few hours.
First of all, I restored the Persian miniature. Autoshade, please, stop.
Second, I removed some recent edits re the Mecca-Medina wars that tended to cast the Meccans as the blackest of villains and the Muslims as pure innocents who were the subjects of aggression. I could make arguments that turned these claims on their head -- but I won't. This really isn't the place to discuss whether the matter -- if we did, it would take over the whole article. Let's try to keep the language here completely neutral, and confine the controversy to the Jihad and Muhammad as warrior articles.
Third, someone had turned the fate of the Banu Qurayza women and children from "slaves" to "captives". This is whitewashing. Ibn Ishaq says that "the apostle divided the property, wives, and children of Banu Qurayza among the Muslims". What is that but slavery?
Fourth, there were claims that Muhammad had offered a general amnesty to the Meccans. Not so -- some people were excepted. Also claims that people were free to convert or not -- not so. The Jews and Christians were allowed to keep their faith, but the so-called pagans HAD to submit, give the bay'ah. "I said to him, 'Submit and testify that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is the apostle of God before you lose your head,' so he did so." That's from Ibn Ishaq, re the conversion of Abu Sufyan.
Fifth, there were claims that the Meccans broke the treaty of Hudaybiya. Not necessarily so. Tribal allies of the Meccans and Muslims, who had been long-time enemies, clashed. Both the Meccans and the Muslims accused the other side of breaking the treaty. We can't say who was right, since there was a dispute.
Sixth, I took at look at the timeline again, and realized that there were matters presented there as fact that are in fact disputed, such as the date of the Constitution of Medina. There were items like "End of South Arabian high culture" which is just plain ... wrong. The timeline went past the death of Muhammad and ended with "Abu Bakr reestablishes the caliphate" which is misleaded and Sunni POV to boot.
I have tried to take out bias and I hope that I haven't added any. I hope that the other editors will be willing to discuss these edits bit by bit, rather than just doing a complete revert. Zora 09:27, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
As near as I can tell, this is a Shi'a story. I need to correct the Zulfiqar article to state that. It would be POV to link to that article. Zora 09:55, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Because it is such a MINOR matter. We've got links to Shi'a Islam and to Ali in the body of the article. There are many articles that mention Muhammad peripherally -- we can't list them all. So we need to pick just the important ones, the ones that might shed light on the character of Muhammad. Legends about a supposed sword no longer in existence don't qualify, IMHO. Zora 10:54, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
After the removal of the unsourced mosque image, I've moved the remaining images around to improve the article's balance. — JEREMY 13:55, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
According to the Red Hair talk page the prophet Muhammed is supposed to have had red hair. Does anybody know if this is true, please? 83.104.185.49 16:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Do people remember this guy? An Arab with red hair. But it's still unlikely that Muhammad had red hair. Aucaman Talk 23:47, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I say if it's useful and relevant, why not let it stay? Auca m an Talk 14:30, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
We have been through this earlier. The book is brought up by Muslims to PROVE that non-Muslims have a high regard for Muhammad. However, the book itself is not notable -- I hadn't heard of it before some editors tried to insert it here -- and it is being falsely puffed as an authoritative reference book just because it ranks Muhammad highly. It has zilch academic status. It is not notable and should be removed. Zora 22:34, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Tor Andrae's widely acclaimed biography of Muhammad, which was originally published 1932 in German, is, e.g., listed in the bibliography of the Encyclopaedia Britannica entry "Muhammad" (written by W. M. Watt!). My point is that what is good enough for the Encyclopaedia Britannica should be good enough for Wikipedia. [Source: "Muhammad." Encyclopædia Britannica, from Encyclopædia Britannica Ultimate Reference Suite 2005 DVD . Copyright © 1994-2004 Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.] --Editorius —Preceding unsigned comment added by Editorius ( talk • contribs)
--Editorius
"Non-Muslims generally consider him to be the founder of Islam" Is there proof of this? Why is it not better to write "Non-Muslims generally consider him to be the prophet (or messenger) of Islam"? Would anyone write that Jesus Christ "founded" Christianity? I would like to know this. RedCrescent 03:18, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Please do not remove the tag until you prove that this is true. Please see Jesus Christ - he is not said to be the "founder" of Christianity or Siddhartha_Gautama who is not said to be founder of Buddhism or Abraham who is not said to be founder of Judaism! RedCrescent 03:36, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
RC, you don't represent all Muslims. Several of the editors with whom you are arguing ARE Muslims. Look, you're a brand-new editor. You just got here. How about doing some real work, like, researching and writing, instead of heading for one of the more contentious articles on WP and trying to force it to your own POV (point of view)? For instance, there are a great many Muslims who lack biographical articles, and a great many Islam-related historical events that don't have articles, or have mere stubs of articles. Surely if you want people to learn more about Islam it is important to have full information here. Zora 04:31, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Aminz ruined the sentence, it should say "is believed by Muslims to be Islam's final prophet, sent to guide all of mankind with the message of the Qur'an, the last revelation of God." Why he did that I don't know. RedCrescent 04:43, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Timothy Usher 07:23, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Timothy Usher 06:44, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
You do not know what ALL muslims believe, you only know what some vocal Muslims have said they believe. Just because a person is born in a Muslim country does not mean that they believe what the Qu'ran says. In most cases they hold their own personal beliefs private , particularly in an atmosphere of heavy penalization for voicing divergent beliefs to the Qu'ran. But inevitably you will never get to know what "ALL" muslims believe. So we should rather say , what the Qu'ran states and what Muslims are required to believe. -- CltFn 04:57, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
If someone does not believe in Qur'an, he/she is not Muslim by definition. -- Aminz 05:00, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
The American Heritage dictionary calls him "Arab prophet of Islam" but Merriam Webster calls him "Arab prophet and founder" and Bartleby calls him "the name of the Prophet of Islam, one of the great figures of history, b. Mecca." So I think we should just say that non-Muslims consider him an Arab prophet of Islam and religious figure. Okay? RedCrescent 05:01, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I think the founder comment aught to be deleted. Use of the word "founder" suggests a contrived, human, rather than divine genesis of the faith. It sounds like a deliberate insinuation of skepticism, right into the intro of the article. You don't find "founder of Christianity" in the Jesus article. There is only a List of founders of major religions link in the "See also" section, where Muhammad and Jesus are listed. The link exits in this article also. That is as far as "founder" can be neutrally included.-- AladdinSE 08:24, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Did Muhammed write down the words that are in the Quran? Did Islam as most people know of it begin when the Quran was written? I think so. As to your question, Christians believe that the Holy Spirit is the "founder" of of the Christian faith. Christians believe that one becomes a Christian after being convicted of their sin by the Holy Spirit and calling on Jesus by name for salvation. Modern Christianity (Christianity when Jesus was present on earth could be seen as "contemporaneous" rather than "modern") was founded when Jesus ascended to Heaven and just prior, promised to send the Holy Spirit (see John 14:16-18 [2]). Suffice it to say, because Christians believe in the Trinity, it's not quite as simple to say which aspect of the Trinity is the founder. If indeed it's true that all three are one, then all three were together since the beginning. All that said, I would say that from a external historical standpoint, modern Christianity started at Pentacost, Judaism started when Jacob was named Israel by an angel and Islam when Muhammed wrote down the words in the Quran. That's how I'd peg it and I think it's a reasonable enough view. Merecat 09:59, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Merecat, your arguments have nought to do with NPOV and everything to do with a pronounced Christian sermon. "Non-Muslims often describe him as the founder of Islam" is a disputed, unsourced POV evaluation in direct contrast to the Jesus article. You advance as defense for your hypocritical stance an utterly Christian perspective that Jesus was present from the beginning, along with the Father, and therefore "founder" does not apply. Well, it's the non-Christians that are supposed to be the ones describing Jesus, so you can't use a Christian tenant to support a non-Christian description. "Founder" is POV and inappropriate in either article.-- AladdinSE 22:39, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Arsath wrote:
"I dont see anything wrong in any kafir saying Prophet is the founder of Islam, that is their point of view."
"In cultural terms, it is a derogatory term used to describe a non-muslim..." See Kuffr. Merecat 10:00, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Because I am quoting the wiki article for that word Kuffr. It's clearly a derogatory term. Whether it's true or not, it ought not to be used here as were are supposed to be civil. See WP:CIVIL. Merecat 10:09, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
If it's not "derogatory" then the wiki article about that word is in error. I urge you to stop injecting your POV and admit that you are not the arbiter of derogatory meaning. Merecat 10:25, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Then take this discussion to the talk page of that article. I'd guess that you will not find consensus there for your view, but best wishes trying. Merecat 10:29, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
FYI: Islam holds that non-Muslims are worthy of scorn. Any word earmarked specifically to describe them, is defacto scornful. Perhaps you would agree with that? Merecat 10:36, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi Timothy, I am not going to apologize if thats what you are expecting, Kafir is an Arabic word meaning a person who hides, denies, or covers the truth and it translates to English language as Infidel. (So I am Kafir to you as much as you are kafir to me). And it was not my intention to instigate your religious hatred or to show my religious hatred. Wikipedia is no place for children who cannot take a comment and get offended at the slightest misunderstanding. Its a place for intelectuals to share knowledge and act in good faith. Not a place to get offended and declare war like small children..
Article 19. Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers
What I presented was my point of view on the Muhammad talk page and talk pages are to express your point of view. Lets not waste anymore time on this. Please, Please, Please wikipedia is not the place to bring out our religious differences and fight over it. Mystic 10:25, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
See guys do u both agree that Timothy Usher had no business putting that comment on this talk page.. If she got offended by my comment she should only talk about it in my talk page not here.. this talk page is for muhammed article related discussion. She was only trying to get more people to sympathize her incorrect point of view and get everyone involved in a soup.. These are the kind of people who create relgious hatered and problems in this world (clearly when it could've been avoided). Lets not get caught in it.. Dont waste your time..Its not worth it. Mystic 11:02, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
So wait.. by getting offended by something that is meant to be used as a derogatory term shes being childish and trying to create religious hatred? So if someone calls you an a**h**e and you feel slighted, but their response is that its my opinion and youre getting offended at the slightest remarks? How about people take their own personal biases outside and not use derogatory remarks here, period. Because I have heard that word used plenty of times as an insult and if its used here, just because you decide that its not an insult right now, doesnt change that its used as one by others. Misfit
Okay Mr M.F, If a muslim calls another muslim a kafir (a non-believer) its derogatory, insulting. When somebody really is a non-believer I dont see anything wrong in calling, anybody a kafir, How do I believe that you heard that word being used as a insult just because you are saying so, maybe only you took at that way. If I call you a b**t**d does that make you one..Suppose if that is the truth and proven beyond doubt maybe I am not wrong in calling you that right?.. Thats the case with the use of Kafir. Now keep a cool head Mr M.F Mystic 18:10, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed that picture, and the caption, because the mosque really has nothing to do with that section, and because the caption was irretrievably POV. Non-Muslims do not believe in the reality of the Isra and Miraj, and hence would not describe Al-Aqsa as the site of the Isra and Miraj. Furthermore, there is much academic dispute over the identification of Al-Aqsa with "the furthest mosque". Some historians say that Muslims did not make this identification until much later. Zora 20:03, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi Zora, Muslims only identified Dome of the Rock as "the furthest mosque" much later, the original Al-Aqsa mosque remained the same, shall we change the caption and include the picutre, because I think its important and adds value to the article. Mystic 06:25, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Arsath,
Can I ask, what is the purpose of the Al Aqsa image? I recognize and appreciate that the caption has improved somewhat, and that it's no longer associated with vandalism of the other image, but am still curious as to what this adds.
Timothy Usher 08:08, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
After living with that section heading for a long time (in fact, I think I wrote it), I've decided that it's inaccurate. That is, Muslim scholars and Western scholars who based their work on traditional sources use many kinds of sources, not just Sira. They also call on hadith, explanations in tafsir (the occasions of revelation), military histories like Waqidi, etc. So is there a better section heading? You may not like the one I came up with, which is fine with me, but I think we need to be more accurate. Zora 20:45, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Starting the article with an argument doesn't make for easy reading, so I moved the whole thing to the bottom.
The editor whose name starts with C (sorry!) rewrote the sources section to make it very sceptical. I'm a sceptic myself, but I think that he overstated the case. Western academic scholars are generally MORE sceptical than devout Muslim scholars, but they certainly aren't all sceptics of the Wansbrough ilk. A lot of them take a much more centrist position. So I tweaked that section back. Zora 03:12, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I support the removal of the "founder" comment from the intro, and its discussion in a separate section. I have made some revisions, mainly dealing with what Muslims believe regarding what was actually founded by Muhammad, being the forms and traditions associated with Islam and Islamic worship. I elaborated on why he is not considered to the founder of the faith itself, as is he considered to be the instrument of revelation, bringer of tidings, as it were. That is what messengers and prophets do. -- AladdinSE 08:23, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't know why my edits were reverted wholesale! I thought they are quite mild and make things more clear. At least part of them were good I think. -- Aminz 09:02, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I personally was happy with that one sentence at the top. It had been there for many months. However, RedCrescent (who threw the apple of discord into the group and then disappeared) was strongly of the opinion that mentioning non-Muslim beliefs was discriminatory, a view that seems to have been adopted by several other Muslim editors. Since the sentence turned into an argument, I moved it to the bottom of the page. It's simply a matter of readability. Start simple and expand. The non-Muslim views are still there, they've just been moved. Zora 22:57, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Aminz, I reverted your edits, not because they were BAD, but because they were getting too detailed for the article. I think we talked at one point about writing an article on various Muslim traditions and their beliefs re the pre-existence of Muhammad, his sinlessness/humanity, his continuing existence ( Barelwi theology), etc., and you weren't sure you wanted to do it. If you want to get into Muhammad-ological discussions (like Christological discussions), then we should probably have a breakout article. This could get very big and very complex. Muslims have been speculating on the subject for millenia. Zora 08:59, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks -- Aminz 09:13, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Timothy Usher,
Question #1. Why my edits were reverted wholesale, when only one of its sentences was disputed?
Question #2. This sentence is supposed to say what Muslims believe. I didn't made things up. I quoted from the Qur'an. Being POV means that the view of all scholars is not provided here. While I am quoting directly from Qur'an, I can not reconcile myself with the statement that it is POV. Unless one tells me that Qur'an has contradictions regarding this issue. What I said was mentioned in the above passages, mostly in 2:133, 2:135. Could you please let me know your argument. Thanks. -- Aminz 10:20, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Dear Aminz,
It's 2:45 a.m. out here...going to bed. For now, just acknowledging receipt of your message, and promising to return tomorrow to address your questions. Thanks for engaging. Timothy Usher 10:41, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Good night. It is also 2:54 a.m. here. We should live in the same time zone I suppose. Thanks for your attention and bye for now. -- Aminz 10:54, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
They do agree that obedience of God is extremely important (e.g. in the second to last verse in the book of Ecclesiastes: "The end of the matter, all having been heard: fear God, and keep His commandments; for this is the whole man [i.e. the whole purpose of man].") In the case of Christians, as far as I understand the issue is related to Trinity AND the Qur'an claims that salvation is achieved through believing in God and being obedient to him rather than being forgiven through Christ’s blood.
The keyword is "generally." There are many people who aren't Muslim and yet are educated on Islam and thus know how the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is viewed. But we're talking about generally. Perhaps "Many people" instead of specifically "non-Muslims" think of the Prophet as the founder of Islam would work better? But again, I think this miniscule detail is being dissected far too much. joturner 06:06, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
What do you mean "I'm not joining in talk"? Is the expectation that I'm going to be logged into WP 18 hours a day? I don't have much of a life, but I have a teeny tiny one. You should give people 24 hours to respond -- or longer. As for Christians and Jews agreeing that earlier religious figures were Muslims -- that's YOUR report, Aminz, and it's hearsay. I've certainly never read anything by any Christian or Jew asserting so.
This whole debate was touched off by someone who seems like a devout Muslim with a chip on his shoulder, demanding veto power over descriptions of non-Muslim belief. We gave proofs, in the form of Google stats, and quotes, but no, that's not enough ... we now have to have a looong argument about exactly what Muslims and non-Muslims believe, which is rapidly turning into a theological debate with strong infusions of original research. Which means that you could write volumes on the subject and it would never be settled. Why don't we just restore that one sentence, that has been up there for over a year, and go on to doing some real work on an encyclopedia? The
Ziyarat article could use more pilgrimage sites and more pictures.
Zora
09:35, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Timothy, the meaning is OK, but I don't like the style at all. You're using three big words where one little one would do. Let me work it over -- tomorrow. Right now I need to go to bed because I have a job interview. Zora 10:12, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
"This whole debate was touched off by someone who seems like a devout Muslim with a chip on his shoulder, demanding veto power over descriptions of non-Muslim belief. We gave proofs, in the form of Google stats, and quotes, but no, that's not enough" All they can do is make accusation against me (I expect apology from this person, I have no chip on my shoulder, but maybe you do since you want to impose something that others disagree with) and other people but "Google stats" are not academic or good. It seems like "original research". Do not add back until we agree and do not ignore my comments or curse me because you think I am "devout" Muslim. Thank you. RedCrescent 23:18, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
RedCrescent, what don't you understand? It is a violation of Wikipedia policy ( WP:NPOV) to include a sentence such as "Muhammad was a prophet," without a qualifier such as "Muslims believe..." The 5/6 of the world's population that is not Muslim tends to disagree. In the same respect, saying "Muhammad was not a prophet" is also a violation. However, saying "Non-Muslims believe..." is neutral. Now that this has been explained, it is also a violation of Wikipedia policy to discuss only one POV. Non-Muslims consider Muhammad to be the creator of Islam, and as that is a significant majority view in the world, there is no reason why it should not be included. — Aiden 00:57, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Can someone please summarize the issue here briefly? I lost track of exactly what the issue is, if there really still is one. We are real close having Muhammad delisting this article from Wikipedia:Good articles as this debacle is starting to destablize the article. I'm not saying you all shouldn't make changes to the article, but this protracted debate isn't helping matters. Everyone, please refrain from letting your personal religious beliefs interfere with keeping this article of good quality. joturner 00:26, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Ansadar should join the discussion - that is supposing he hasn't already done so under a different name - as the source he is demanding was given a long time ago by Editorius. Timothy Usher 02:33, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I now support removing the section "Was Muhammad the founder of Islam" just because of Timothy's argument and not that of Zora or Aiden.-- Aminz 02:48, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Timothy, I prefer to remove this section since Zora (and sometimes Aiden) consider my opinion as "original research" and my personal theories. They never quoted any Qur'anic verse to support their argument, but just claimed that I am re-interpreting my religon and that their interpretation is the authentic one. In any case, your edit seems good to me since it didn't have their argument. -- Aminz 03:37, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
On the edit summary, I'd meant to write, I don't think this section merits deletion. If nothing else, the discussion here has shown this to be a point of great interest to all, and potentially very illuminating to readers. Timothy Usher 06:30, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
the lenghty discussion above seems a little self-indulgent. Wikipedia is not a discussion forum. Yes, the sentence "non Muslims generally consider him the founder of Islam" could be improved. The problem lies with the semantics of "founder", it doesn't sit quite right with me either. So instead of going off on intricate tangents, you should cogitate about what exactly the phrase means to express and how its wording may be improved. I can think of replacing founder with "instigator" or something, but I believe it is common to describe Muhammad as the "prophet of Islam" even by non-Muslims: that's just the role he plays within Islam. Sybil is also described as an "oracle of Delphi" even by people who are not adherents of the Ancient Greek religion, or who do not believe in oracles altogether. If Sybil can be an oracle, why shouldn't Muhammad be a prophet, even from an atheist pov (*shrugs*). dab (ᛏ) 07:27, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
google shows that "founder of islam" has some currency, apparently especially as a term used by critics of Islam. But the question whether this is accurate is not so much a matter of being or not being a Muslim, but of being aware of the Arabic language. Islam means about as much as "Faith" in English. Now, in English, "Islam" is used to refer to "faith" according to the teachings of Muhammad, but to Arabic ears, the statement that "Muhammad founded Islam" sounds about as weird as "Jesus founded Faith". RedCrescent is right that Columbia Encyclopedia, certainly not a Muslim source, has "Muhammad is the Prophet of Islam" perfectly acceptable. Britannica however has "founder of the religion of Islam", and the 1911 Britannica [4] had "founder of the religious system called in Europe after him Mahommedanism, and by himself Islam", both without implication that "founder" should be controversial or reserved for use by non-Muslims. In my opinion, we should say something like:
dab (ᛏ) 13:24, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
The American Heritage dictionary calls him "Arab prophet of Islam" but Merriam Webster calls him "Arab prophet and founder". RedCrescent 01:38, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Would it be better to write: "...was an Arab religious figure, and the FOUNDING FIGURE of the world religion of Islam" in the introductory sentence? This is a little more ambiguous and therefore potentially less offensive while still implying that he can be considered the founder. It would have the added advantage of better covering a minority view that questions the historical existence of Mohammed alltogether (on account of the total lack of independent and contemporary historical sources, not unlike the situation in Christianity). 80.135.228.138 01:24, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I delisted this article because of the recent instability. joturner 03:03, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Timothy, Qur'an sometimes prescribes different laws for Muhammad himself. The permission of having more than four wives is part of it. It is fair to have all of them rather than only one of them. For example, he was obliged to pray, between 1/3 to 1/2 of the nights:
I think we should have a section and talk about the Muhammad's personal obligation and permissions separately. It is not fair to just mention that permission. Thanks-- Aminz 09:28, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I have added comment as response to dab above. RedCrescent 12:51, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
That section should NOT be there. Having a slew of Qur'an verses is bad enough, but having them summarized is worse. This should be in a breakout article on Islamic views of Muhammad's nature and character or something like that. We could start that with the Qur'an verses, which for Muslims is the final word on who Muhammad IS, and then go on to discussions of Muhammad's sinlessness, whether or not he was a hanif, Shi'a beliefs, Barelwi beliefs, etc. Before I go start the article and move those verses out, does anyone have any better suggestion for a title? Zora 21:59, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I invite those interested in POV issues on this page to visit Musaylimah. I've tried to clean it up to some extent, but you can check the history to see what it was like to begin with.
From the neutral point of view, how are Musaylimah's claims different from those of Muhammad? Well one way, Muhammad was first, making Musaylimah sound like rather the cheap knockoff. And perhaps he was. But I still think a look at this page is worthwhile to see what some wikipedia editors consider NPOV when dealing with someone who their religious understanding derides rather than reveres - at least as unsympathetic as anything (besides vandalism) I've seen on this page, or elsewhere as an example of "Islamophobia".
I'm not entirely comfortable with getting rid of purported examples of Musaylimah's verses, as they are informative, but they were clearly (and explicitly) chosen to make him look ridiculous. I think all of us familiar with the Qur'an realize that the same could be done by an unscrupulous editor, and that regardless of their suposedly impeccable pedigree (in contrast to the secondhand examples of Muslaylimah) they would likely be deleted as POV.
Not sure where I'm going with this, but I can say this: someone claims to be getting word-for-word revelations from God, many might find this inherently dubious if not ridiculous. We can debate to what degree this POV should be represented, but if this article were any guide...
Any feedback?
Timothy Usher 05:19, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
I pruned some hagiographic material -- someone had added something re how much other Meccans loved and trusted Muhammad. Also, someone had added details on Muhammad's last illness that are simply not found in sira. The statement that he lost his voice is contradicted by many passages in Ibn Ishaq.
I slightly rewrote the section on Muhammad's marriages, which I thought had become unbalanced in the Muslim direction. However, I tried to avoid specifics, which are, IMHO, better discussed in the breakout article. If we tried to put them in this article, it would double in size and triple in dissension.
I don't think I've done anything controversial, but other editors will doubtless check out the diffs and comment. Zora 06:56, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Muhammad is an important prophet for both the Druze and the Baha'i faiths. Just as the Islam view is mentioned in the introduction to the Jesus article, Baha'i and Druze should be mentioned in the introduction here (NPOV !), albeit in a short form. I think the sentence: "He is also venerated as a prophet by the Druze and by the Bahá'í." is an appropriate solution. That those faiths are already mentioned on the Islam page does not concern the article on Muhammad. In fact, their mentioning is probably even more relevant here. 80.135.202.209 23:01, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Jossi restored the edit. I repeat, it's unfair to mention SOME of the traditions, and not others, and if you mention them all, you end up with an unreadable intro para. You could summarize by saying that he is also recognized as a prophet by other religious traditions deriving from Islam and then link to a later section. Zora 23:18, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
All that simply doesn't belong on top. It confuses matters. Zora 01:25, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
But that would be factually wrong. I just checked your examples and found that Zikri and Ahmadiyya are indeed muslim sects (like Alevites). In contrast to this the Baha'i religion is an independent religion not at all derived from Islam. I think we should drop the Druze and write "He is also venerated by some other religions, including the Baha'i faith." and then link to a new section like the one you propose. I cannot see how this 'confuses matters', it is very easy to understand and it belongs in the introduction precisely so that it is NPOV and not Islam only. The Baha'i should be named, because of their relative size and international importance (for example consultative status with WHO, UNICEF and other United Nations agencies). 80.135.202.209 01:51, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Not quite what I wanted, but I see Aiden's point. I think we should have a section on the views of the smaller religions (of which the Baha'i are the most important) and it should be situated _not too far_ from the intro. If we put it at the bottom, it does nothing about the problem (too Muslim POV). 80.135.202.209 03:09, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, the Islamic view is obviously the most prominent and should be discussed first. After the Biography section, sure, there should be a section for views according to other religions. — Aiden 03:30, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
The thing that I think is POV is that nothing potentially negative is presented, even though there are ample attestations - from Islamic sources, naturally - that would be of great interest to readers.
I don't mean to sound hyperbolic, but by modern standards Muhammad would be considered a war criminal - executing POW's, ransoming others, poisoning wells with dead bodies, etc., and a dictator, ordering the excecution of poets and the like. Saying he's a war criminal would be anachronous and POV...but going into more detail about his life, including the ugly ones, would go a long way towards explaining why (one reason at least) Muhammad is so controversial to this day. And more importantly, would make the article more interesting and more informative.
However, given what I've seen on Islam-related pages, anything remotely negative, regardless of truth, is quickly vandalized by a small band of his followers. I personally don't understand how the perfection (well okay he was abrupt with a homeless guy once) of Muhammad's person fits into the worship God alone thing anyhow - how do Muhammad's errors (much less of the Caliphs) reflect on God? But it seems a large number of people think this way.
If it sounds like I'm just complaining, and doing nothing about it, that's true, but only because the latter takes more time.
Timothy Usher 03:20, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
While your edits are well-intentioned, they are unnecessary. As the entire section is titled "His life according to Islamic traditions," there is no need to place qualifiers in front of every section or sentence. The sub-section is titled "The First Revalations" because that's how the event is reffered to "according to Islamic traditions." Take a look at the Jesus article. There is a sub-section titled "Resurrection and Ascension," but it is under the section "Life and teachings based on the Gospels." There is no need to title the sub-section "Reports of Resurrection and Ascension," if you see what I mean. — Aiden 03:46, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I removed some detailed info from the sources section and replaced it with a more general recent quote from an academic. Timothy told me to take it up with the creator. Um, I am the creator. I wrote that section a LONG time ago, and I now think it's too detailed for the article. It's distracting. I've put that info into the Historiography of early Islam article, which we should probably link, and which I need to update. So the info isn't gone, it's just in a breakout article.
Does that satisfy your concerns, Timothy? Zora 09:46, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Timothy, the sentences I rewrote are just plain UGLY. Bad prose. I didn't change the sense, I just made things plainer. "Item of debate" is clunky phrasing. "Matter for debate" or "debateable" would be better. Saying that an "item of debate" is a "notion" is also a strange juxtaposition. Surely you should be able to SEE the difference? Zora 09:57, 4 April 2006 (UTC) (proofread and copyedit for an exiguous living) (late at night and tired) (I'll rephrase tomorrow -- I'm sure I can think of dozens of ways to say this and you'll accept one of them, I'm sure.)
This section was added after a consensus was acheived among editors involved in a dispute. It mentions some religions which consider Muhammad important, but is by all means a work in progress and will need additions of other prominent views, such as those of Christianity and Judaism. Mentioning the views of other religions by no means indicates importance. WP:NPOV suggests views based on prominence not importance. The title of this section should be straightfoward: "Religious perspectives," not another pro-Muhammad soapbox where we discuss just how important he is. — Aiden 01:45, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
This section was called 'religious perspectives' in parallel to the Jesus article. That was just a working title to start it (as per talk), but didn't address the problem of where to put other, non-religious views (historical science, philosophical movements, ...). So I think we could either have two independent sections, one for 'Perspectives of other religions' and one for 'Other views', or we could use these two headings as subsections in an 'Other Perspectives' section.
My other issue: why was this moved to stand after the 'Historical significance' section? We should have it right after the islamic perpective (the biography section), so that all POVs are in one place (assuming the historical significance is more or less NPOV). 80.135.201.251 10:35, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
William Muir's bio is extremely old and pro-Christian. I don't think it makes sense to have it here. It is of historical interest only. Zora 07:01, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
I've restored the links you removed because your edits only removed the views of Nonmuslims. The fact that Muir may be pro-Christian is fine as the link is under the "Nonmuslim biographies" section. I have also added the word 'critical' to the section to highlight this. — Aiden 19:15, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Don't the critics have anything NEWER than a 100-year-old biography to offer? I hate to send people to something that, while well-written, is antiquated. Zora 20:31, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Why no picture? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.239.147.95 ( talk • contribs)
Are you referring to a picture of Prophet Muhammad? That is because muslims believe that representing Muhammad as an image, in the form of drawing, painting, idol making etc is forbidden, because then it gives the impression that muhammad is an idolatry figure to be worshiped. This is woring. Muslims beleive Muhammad was a Prophet of God, and that he was given a divine message for all humanity. Allah (god) is the one to be worshiped. In comparison with Christianity, where Jesus is the son or a part of him, and therefore, a figure to be worhsiped for christians -- Aadamh 11:19, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
What does this have to do with wikipedia?
Timothy Usher
11:20, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
It has something to do with the Muhammad artcile. This is the discussion for the Muhammad article is it not? Or is it a place for discussion about wikipedia? -- Aadamh 11:23, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
You misunderstand me. Your comments are about why some Muslims believe that images of Muhammad are undesirable, but they've no obvious application to wikipedia because wp is NPOV. If we were fortunate enough to have a photograph, we'd post it. Timothy Usher 11:33, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
By 'we' you mean 'you'..? -- Aadamh 11:36, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, didn't mean to sound arrogant like that. Though of course I'd post it. And admit it, you'd look. Who wouldn't want to know how Muhammad really looked? Timothy Usher 11:43, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Any drawing or picture would never be an accurate physical representation of Muhammad. There are descriptions of him in hadiths. But noone who is alive knows what he looked like. Those who did (that were alive during his lifetime) are dead. It is natural curiosity to want know these things, and for the purpose of academia, you could post such images as false representations, and personal imagination but it would never be accepted it as an image of the Prophet Muhammad himself; it would be just another image of any human being, anyone else. And believe me, if you posted such a picture i do not think it would be widely popular. -- Aadamh 12:05, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
And one more thing, how are we meant to accurately record the life of Muhammad if we do not relate to islamic traditions? Should we just assume and guess and put down NPOV? -- Aadamh 11:38, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
He thinks he owns this article. He always reverts. Admins should do something about him. RedCrescent 07:31, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I look through many of his edits and looks like he might have strong anti-Muslim bias. What a surprise. RedCrescent 07:33, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Because we have breakout articles for all the stuff that's controversial. Muhammad as warrior, Muhammad's marriages, and Banu Qurayza. If we were to include ALL the controversies, and all the documentation and argumentation pro and con, this article would quadruple in size. It's already longer than desirable.
Trying to pack everything into one article is "main-articlism" and it's pernicious. We're a wiki, and we can have breakout articles.
This article is a delicate balance between the editors who want it to read like a mosque handout and those who want it to denounce Islam. Breakout articles let us keep the balance. Zora 07:54, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
This whole section is unsourced. The information in the section also talk about Islam in general and has nothing to do with Muhammad. I propose removing it. Aucaman Talk 19:45, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Even if the material is sourced, there's still another problem. The section does not even discuss Mohammad and it has nothing to do with whether or not he founded Islam. If you want the section to stay you should at least rewrite it to make it more relevant to this article/section name. Aucaman Talk 00:07, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
this is appallingly self-centred. Just because some editors fancy to debate a point ad nauseam on talk, you figure it is encyclopedic and deserves its own section, with a header phrased as a question? Style, people, and notability, and encyclopedicity. Yes, and main-articleism. dab (ᛏ) 08:26, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Timothy, the section on the founder of Islam seems stable enough. It gives a fair and un-biased account of how Muhammad is viewed as a prophet and founder. It is very neurtral and well written in my opinion. We should ask the moderator of the 'good articles list' what constitutes as a 'good' article, because i think this article is very good and getting better all the time and i will do all i can to make it better. -- Aadamh 11:32, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know who moderates the 'good articles' list? -- Aadamh 11:34, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
This section only gives a 'fair and un-biased account' if you don't go on deleting non-muslim views. 80.135.226.166 20:21, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Another thought: Maybe _both_ subsections (muslim views, other views) should be deleted, since they deal with Islam rather than Muhammad. Only the sentences "Non-Muslims generally consider Muhammad to be the founder or creator of Islam. Most Muslims accept that Muhammad founded Islam as a historical, political and social entity, but object to the notion that he founded the religion of Islam." should remain, under their own heading 'Muhammad as founder of Islam' (but not inside the 'Muhammad in Islam' section!). Notice that I removed the word 'strongly', otherwise it would have to say 'Non-Muslims generally strongly consider ..." 80.135.226.166 20:52, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I do not think it is necessary to delete muslim views. For the purpose of learning , we need to understand the status of muhammad in islamic culture and tradition as well as opposing views because it is part of his lfe and cannot be merely pushed aside. If we just put generalised comments for the sake of non-muslims getting too confused or thinking it is too boring for them, then it will be not a fair article or accurate. However in this particular section, 'is muhammad the founder?' is more of an issue to be addressed to non-muslims , because for non-muslims there can be misconceptions / uncertainties. Therefore I am inclined to agree with you on this particular issue. -- Aadamh 22:50, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
What we need is some kind of balance. That the islamic religion considers other religions as false or corrupted may be an accurate description of it's teachings. When it is obviously directed at _certain_ other religions (Judaism, Christianity), their views warrant mentioning in accordance with WP:NPOV, just as the accused in a court of law gets the right of reply. However, the contents of islamic religious beliefs generally belong to the Islam article, not the Muhammed article. To replicate everything that's on the main Islam article here, by connecting it to Muhammad in some way or other, would be nonsensical.
To say that the section xyz is addressed to non-muslims and the section abc is addressed to muslims is completely contrary to what Wikipedia is about! The Article would be NPOV if non-muslims were presented with the muslim view, AND muslims presented with the non-muslim view. Sadly, the latter is mostly missing here! As for what are 'misconceptions', well, now, that's purely POV! 80.135.226.166 23:37, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Someone had reorganized the last few sections of the article into two sections, Islamic views of Muhammad and other views. That may not be such a bad idea BUT -- it was so badly implemented as to be confusing. Non-Muslim and Muslim views were mixed up through all the sections, making the headers pointless. I returned to the way it was previously.
I've already said that it may be a good idea to have a "Islamic views of Muhammad" article, just because there is no one view. Muhammadology can be just as vexing for Muslims as Christology is for Christians. If we can develop such an article, then we can summarize it briefly in the main Muhammad article. Trying to do the development IN the Muhammad article is probably a mistake.
I'd do it myself, if it weren't that I'm overwhelmed. Money-earning work to do, about a square cubic yard of books to read stacked all over my house ... isn't there anyone else who wants to write the article? Zora 00:03, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Zora, I am really really sorry. It is just hard to start the article. But I will start the article by today(I hope I would be able to gather enough stuff). My english is not also good, so the article will have lots of mistakes :D. -- Aminz 01:43, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Zora, your suggestion for an article on the Islamic views of Muhammad was good and I had already promised to start the article. I had to be quick otherwise it was probable that I could never fulfill my promise.
Can you please have a look at Islamic views of Muhammad? I was thinking of three main parts:
The doctrine of Sinlessness of Muhammad When was Muhammad’s soul created? Muslim description of Muhammad
Any idea about the general structure of the article?-- Aminz 04:26, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I should leave now, but will get back soon. Can you please let me know your idea about the general structure of the article. thx -- Aminz 04:29, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
This section was moved and shortened due to complaints about length and summary deletion by other editors. The argument that other Abrahamic faiths don't think they're corruptions of Islam is not relevant to this section, in which Islam's views of other faiths are mentioned tangentially in order to explain how Muslims could consider people like Jesus to be followers of Islam. — JEREMY 06:39, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Other editors think it relevant. Upon which editors' behalf, specifically, do you claim to speak? Timothy Usher 08:16, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Were I not to assume good faith, the current revert-pattern might seem like an attempt to tag-team me into a 3RR violation. I note that my "reverts" are actually three different versions I've offered in an attempt to find a wording solution satisfactory to all. It starts to get more than a little frustrating when my considered efforts are blanket-reverted by editors who seem to be pushing for the whole section to be deleted. — JEREMY 13:40, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
The issue is not that other faiths are 'mentioned tangentially', but that jewish and christian prophets and the christian messiah are called by name. Even if you do that indirectly, like for example '...prophets [and that's already POV] of the other abrahmic religions were muslims...' or '... teachings of the other monotheistic religions are corrupted...', you effectively bring these figures and religions into play, and then WP:NPOV demands the mentioning of other views. 80.135.255.49 18:44, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I was about to argue that if all mentioning of other religion's 'personnel' was removed (and the religions themselves not even appeared indirectly), their views were not necessary in this section. But what would then be a good starting point for different "Muhammad the founder" POVs? Through clever writing you could indeed minimize the apparent need for 'the other view'. Yet that would be catastrophic for the quality of Wikipedia articles that deal with religious beliefs, because _every_ religious belief is POV by definition! What we have now (muslim views and other views), is a perfect vehicle to achieve NPOV on the founder question. This is very important, if muslims are to understand and to learn the views of non-muslims concerning Muhammad. (And yes, the length-argument is truly silly.) 80.135.255.49 20:52, 11 April 2006 (UTC)