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quick straw poll on whether to move this article: what do style guides around the world say for the full stop after Mr, Ms, Mrs?
What about other english-speaking countries? Australia? -- Tarquin 14:11 23 May 2003 (UTC)
I don't agree that Miss is old-fashioned, it's still widely used here in the UK, I would have thought it's still more common than Ms. Also, I pronounce it as mz, not mizz, am I alone in this or is this a varient pronunciation? fabiform | talk 14:31, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I was taught that since Ms is not an abbreviation it doesn't take a period (or full stop for those using the queen's english) Was anyone else taught that way? 65.209.165.170 18:32, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Ms. appears to be a US usage. Ms is British usage (and Australian, New Zealand, etc). -- veracity-or-mendacity 14:18, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Bottom line: Ms is not an abbreviation (it is not "short" for anything), therefore, it should not be followed by a period. -- Tonicw ( talk) 05:01, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Bottom line: The matter is not one of opinion, it is one of standard usage. Besides, the article clearly states that "Ms." is short for "Mistress", as are "Miss" and "Mrs." By that logic, it's the Brits that are all incorrect, and "Miss" should actually be "Miss." However, whatever logic one wants to put to it is irrelevant... it is what it is... its usage is already set and we are simply here to state what that usage is, not to debate its merits. Njsustain ( talk) 22:07, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Somewhere, I'd like to put a note to the effect that a "Miss vs Mrs" equivalent does exist for men. It's not used at all in the United States as far as I know, but I certainly remember being called by the title "Master" when I was in England. Is this still current usage, and where would be a good place to note it? It's an interesting tidbit... Isomorphic 01:04, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)
It's absolutely not current usage in the UK, and anyone who reports being called "Master" was most likely called that as a joke of some sort. A few people in the UK are aware of the usage due to old-fashioned Happy Families cards or similar, but I'd wager that most people haven't even heard of it. Kids these days are playing computer games, not old-fashioned card games, and very few are reading 19th century (children's) fiction, which is the only other place where the term is occasionally found that I can think of. The term was used for male children: I am not sure at what age it would be dropped, but the usage I've seen has been in contrast to a more senior man, so possibly up to 18 or so. I also can't recall seeing it in anything other than upper-class situations, possibly middle-class as well (think butlers!), but then earlier fiction was biased towards upper and middle class anyway. Elettaria ( talk) 10:32, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
I've just added the standard British English (without the full stop — which I'd have thought was peculiar even in U.S. English). The standard British approach is that the full stop is used to mark the cutting off of a word at that point (such as "Street" to "St."), but not otherwise (so "Saint" to "St", as well as "Mr", "Mrs", "Dr", etc.). Needless to say, many people get it wrong, and English is no longer really taught in schools... but that's another issue. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 09:14, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
By that logic the use of Dr, Mr, Mrs, etc. should all follow the British use of these terms. And as a matter of fact Ms doesn't 'get' a full stop (i.e. period) in the UK. Donnachadh 22:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
In England Master is still widely used when addressing males under the age of 12 - especially on hand-written letters but also in general conversation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.145.139.130 ( talk) 10:57, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
As discussed in the "Master" section, the term is very much not in standard English usage today for addressing boys.
The full stop after titles varies enormously these days, to the point where there is no longer a standard usage for this. However, when the full stop is used, it is used for Mr, Mrs and so forth as well. Elettaria ( talk) 10:52, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
Ms. (or Ms) is a title used with the last name or full name of a woman.
Is " Miss" or "Ms." used alone as a term of respect in inner city regions of the US? -- zandperl 20:00, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
I've moved this addition by an anon editor to the Talk page; can anyone provide citations for these claims?
-- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 22:38, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Here's something that I can't get my mind around: what's the point in introducing a new term "Ms" that is pronounced exactly like "Miss", i. e. the term one tries to deprecate? Why not just use "Mrs." [MISSIS] for all women, regardless of their marital status? -- Maikel 14:44, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
Actually, "Ms" is frequently pronounced in a way that is near-impossible to distinguish from "Miss", which is probably the main reason why uptake of the term has been poor. If I ring a company, and they address me as Mrs, and I correct them to Ms, nine times out of ten they will write me down as Miss. I then go on record as being Miss, even though I deliberately said that I was Ms. Pronunciation is a definite problem with this term.
The last time that all women in the UK were addressed by the same title was centuries ago and the title was Mistress. Unfortunately, we can't revive that one for general usage since it's primarily used by dominatrices these days. Elettaria ( talk) 11:01, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
I was surprised to see that the article says Ms was used as early as the 1700s. I have seen 'mistress' and 'Mrs' used in that period as a respectful title but without implications of marital status, but have never seen 'Ms'. I checked the OED whose earliest reference is "1932 N.Y. Times 29 May III. 2/8 In addressing by letter a woman whose marital status is in doubt, should one write ‘M's’ or ‘Miss’?". Any citations for earlier usage? Bluewave 14:24, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
In the UK, Miss is most certainly not old fashioned or out of use. Admittedly I've never worked in a high level office situation of sorts, but I've only personally known 1 woman who went by "Ms" and she was a widow who used it to avoid awkward questions about her husband. In the way some of my girl friends use it, I would assume that "Miss" is actually kind of used with the pride of being young, beautiful and free.
When I was a child I was always referred to as "Master" and it is an option on forms that young people may fill out. Unfortunately, my bank and everything else I was signed up to changed me to "Mr" on my 16th birthday (when you become an independant adult in the UK). Rather than campaigng for Ms, I'd rather campaign for Master so that I don't always have to answer the phone with "which Mr MacFarlane?".
In Australia, it's considered polite to use Ms when you don't know a woman's preference. I know many women who are insist on being a Ms, while others still prefer Miss or Mrs. Personally I would take offence at being addressed as Miss (since I am not a flighty sixteen year old) or Mrs (since although I am married, I do not use my husbands surname). Oooh yes. I'm one of those nasty feminists. -- veracity-or-mendacity 14:31, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
"I would assume that "Miss" is actually kind of used with the pride of being young, beautiful and free." Er, you do realise how appallingly sexist that comment is, don't you?
Re. databases: I've noticed that when I say "Ms", many people hear it as "Miss" because they forget that Ms is an option, even when they're meant to be using it (the term's been around for long enough, for heaven's sake). Was it a database that relied on someone hearing the title correctly? Elettaria ( talk) 10:56, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
The article mentions that the non-sexist form of address in Spanish is señora, but it's been my understanding that if I do not know a woman's marital status (or whether she's a virgin or not, which is supposedly also used as a distinction between señora and señorita), the safest route is always to use señorita, even if it's an 80-year-old woman. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.7.222.240 ( talk) 19:44, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Just like British and American English present different ways of addressing, however minor they may be, so it happens with Portuguese. Portuguese as spoken in Portugal presents important differences from Portuguese as spoken in Brazil. As such, a Brazilian would call a young unmarried woman as senhorita, but not a Portuguese, who would say menina.
Since this is the first time I'm doing any sort of editing at Wikipedia, I feel a bit uncertain about editing the article. However, the examples at the end ought to have the Portuguese with the two words, senhorita / menina.
Sarai -- 85.240.249.102 18:45, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
For some reason the citation I gave has irregular spacing in the "Notes" section - there's an enormous space between two of the words ("Cultural" and "Heritage"). Does anyone know how to fix it? -- DearPrudence 02:52, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Removed as the specifics of this interview aren't relevant to the subject matter. 195.24.29.51 13:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Ms. is an American invention. Why is this written with a very clear and noticeable UK slant, even mentioning the titles of nobility in the first sentence? Why are style standards quoted from UK publications and not American?
And why is it claimed that most women prefer to style themselves Miss or Mrs.? That's clearly incorrect.
Bottom line: As "Ms." is an American word, this article needs Americn punctuation, American citations, and American usages. Softlavender 09:51, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
It ISN'T an American invention, that's why. Americans taking credit for British developments is almost a tradition though. 81.107.23.175 ( talk) 22:10, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
Softlavender, where does it say Wikipedia articles should take the US usage as default? I seem to recall the directive to be merely to keep British or US usage consistent within an article, however in this case I think it could be argued - since the article is a discussion of the term itself - that it should contain mention both usages. However, it appears someone else has already seen the need and fixed that already.
Also, I've also listed a reference to a US source regarding usage of Ms. to keep you happy. -- veracity-or-mendacity 14:27, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Speaking for the UK: last I checked, there was no longer a default title for women, either in business correspondence or elsewhere. It is definitely not the case that Ms is reserved for divorcées or business use. Many women prefer the title for simple reasons of feminism. I myself have used it all my adult life, since my marital status is nobody's business. Some companies will address women by default as Ms, particularly in a mailshot or similar. Others will address women by default as Mrs, especially verbally, and a great many women find this pretty offensive. I've just had to explain to two staff at John Lewis that they really shouldn't assume that every woman they speak to is both straight and married! Ms is particularly useful these days since the simple division of women into not-yet-married/married is long gone, and so many people divorce, remarry, keep their maiden names, are in same-sex relationships (both "Miss" and "Mrs" are wrong for someone in a civil partnership), and most commonly of all, may be living with a partner (not single, not married).
As for French plurals, they are highly formal, old-fashioned and only rarely used these days. People don't say "Mesdames and Messieurs" when speaking, they say, "Ladies and gentlemen", and the only time I've seen "Mess." used in written form, it tends to be something like a novel from several decades ago when someone is quoting a letter from a publisher, lawyer or similar. However, when writing a business letter to someone whose name is not known, "Dear Sir or Madam" is still standard, and women are occasionally addressed as "Madam" verbally, though again this is fairly formal and old-fashioned, and there are very few women who actively prefer being called "Madam". Elettaria ( talk) 10:59, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
Someone has requested a citation for "... British school children may also address female teachers as Miss regardless of marital status." This is a simple fact of British society and, in my opinion, does not need a citation to support it although I can understand non-Brits questioning this. Finding material that demonstrates this and including proof that the teacher is indeed married may be difficult.
Laurie Lee's short story Village School features the crabby Miss B and her successor Miss Wardley. The children address Miss Wardley saying "Oh, miss, please miss, can I go round the back?" and "Please, miss, I got to stay 'ome tomorrow...". Does anyone know of a suitable citation where a married teacher is addressed as "Miss"? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
84.178.181.71 (
talk)
11:39, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
There was a second pronunciation listed for the schwa sound instead of the short i sound. The schwa sound is incorrect -- I've never heard it pronounced that way in 37 years, and I can find no printed substantiation of that, so I removed it. (Besides, as far as I am aware, the schwa sound occurs in polysyllabic words, not in single-syllable words.) Softlavender ( talk) 04:47, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
The plural of mister is messrs. What is the plural of ms? -- Camaeron ( talk) 20:31, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I feel this should be clarified by the addition of '...in the USA'; it is unwarranted when applied to the UK. The citation for that point - 'Emily Post Etiquette Institute' - is also inaccurate for localities outside the USA. Strangely the article includes (further down) 'citation needed' for the fact that usage in the UK is sparse to say the least (outside of the BBC), yet I struggle to see how one can possibly provide a definitive citation aside from the fact that anyone in the UK would simply know it to be true (any online 'citation' would be no more useful or applicable than the Emily Post page). Yet twice this article suggests that Ms. is a universal standard for business correspondence. This is just not true in the UK (and I suspect anywhere outside the USA) except among the 'right-on' brigade. 82.36.75.208 ( talk) 14:38, 29 March 2008 (UTC) xyster
As a francophone, I would like to seriously question the affirmation that the word "madame" is used for both married and unmarried women. It's a rather clumsy faux-pas to use the term "madame" for an unmarried woman and one is held to use "mademoiselle" when your common sense suggests that the person is unmarried (clued in by age or other factors) or when told the person goes under the honourific "mademoiselle". For instance, you would never employ the term "madame" for a late-teen or early twenties woman unless you know for a fact she is married. Address her as "madame" and she likely would correct you on the spot with a "ah non, c'est mademoiselle".
Actually, in Canada, there is a French equivalent to the English Ms. it it: Madelle(md) which takes is plural as Mesdelles (Mds.) You can look it up on French wikipedia: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madelle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.224.227.150 ( talk) 20:32, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
In my work I have to sometimes translate things from Dutch (native) to English. Came across something that puzzled me. In Dutch, a name like Marianne de Vries will have capitalisation in the Dutch Mevrouw De Vries ('mevrouw' being 'Mrs(.)/Ms(.)'). What happens when I write in English? Ms(.) de Vries or Ms(.) De Vries? (Please note that in Flemish names of Dutch origin other rules apply; I'm not even going into the 'van der Meulen/Van der Meulen/Van Der Meulen' varieties). Any styleguides deal with that? Personally I think it would be a good addition to the article (as that very question was the reason I looked up the wikipage) but perhaps others think otherwise? Or is it just common sense and you should go with your 'own' language's system? -- Charades ( talk) 10:11, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
The old pronunciation section just listed four pronunciations, ID'ing none of them as more or less standard, stressed vs. unstressed, etc. For say a foreigner trying to figure out how to pronounce it, just giving a bunch like this won't help. My dictionary, "Webster's New World College Dictionary", which is a medium-large dictionary at 1,669 8.5x11in pages, and which focuses primarily on American usage, only lists one, /mɪz/. This is clearly the stressed form in General American. When nonstressed, GA'ers might say /mɪz/, but in faster speech more likely /məz/ or even /məs/ before a voiceless consonant. In general, when giving pronunciations, we should focus on the "standard" pronunciations, i.e. General American and RP for British; identify the fact that we're giving standard pronunciations (which might not be universal) and identify variant contexts (e.g. stressed vs. unstressed, American vs. British). The reason for this is not to try and force the standards down anyone's throat but simply to avoid having what we had here: a large, random collection of variants, none identified as to which to use in which circmcumstance. Trying to list lots of dialect pronunciations just leads to a mess; and besides, the point of these pronunciations is mostly for foreigners, who will (naturally) want to learn the standard language of their adopted country. Native English speakers already know the pronunciation. Benwing ( talk) 06:53, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
"In areas such as the American South, a woman's first name or "Miss", with the inclusion of her first name is the title used and generally preferred for women of any age regardless of marital status."
I dispute this. I'm a lifelong southerner and I'd agree that it is common for children to do that or adults in front of children or in very informal situations, but in the business community or in more formal situations, it'd be almost unheard of. I second the "citation needed" tag. 108.93.144.242 ( talk) 04:29, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
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Since single mothers are deemed to be unmarried women, is it correct to address such women as Ms. <surname>? If the mother has a daughter, then there's a need to distinguish the two if their surname is used in shorthand. Example, the older Ms. <surname> refers to the mother and the younger Ms. <surname> refers to her daughter. SignOfTheDoubleCross ( talk) 07:48, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
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I heard that 'Ms' was first used as a convenient honorific for women in general by the American mail-order houses in the 1920's. Valetude ( talk) 01:09, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
Some women take on their husband’s surname and the title Mrs when they get married. Some women prefer to keep their surname and use the title Ms -- Backinstadiums ( talk) 15:58, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
Fowler reads
The plural is Mss(.) or Mses
-- Backinstadiums ( talk) 09:04, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
This article seems to make no mention of this usage.
This seems prevalent enough to be worth mention. Is independently published research on this pattern necessary to get this usage mentioned in the article?
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quick straw poll on whether to move this article: what do style guides around the world say for the full stop after Mr, Ms, Mrs?
What about other english-speaking countries? Australia? -- Tarquin 14:11 23 May 2003 (UTC)
I don't agree that Miss is old-fashioned, it's still widely used here in the UK, I would have thought it's still more common than Ms. Also, I pronounce it as mz, not mizz, am I alone in this or is this a varient pronunciation? fabiform | talk 14:31, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I was taught that since Ms is not an abbreviation it doesn't take a period (or full stop for those using the queen's english) Was anyone else taught that way? 65.209.165.170 18:32, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Ms. appears to be a US usage. Ms is British usage (and Australian, New Zealand, etc). -- veracity-or-mendacity 14:18, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Bottom line: Ms is not an abbreviation (it is not "short" for anything), therefore, it should not be followed by a period. -- Tonicw ( talk) 05:01, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Bottom line: The matter is not one of opinion, it is one of standard usage. Besides, the article clearly states that "Ms." is short for "Mistress", as are "Miss" and "Mrs." By that logic, it's the Brits that are all incorrect, and "Miss" should actually be "Miss." However, whatever logic one wants to put to it is irrelevant... it is what it is... its usage is already set and we are simply here to state what that usage is, not to debate its merits. Njsustain ( talk) 22:07, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Somewhere, I'd like to put a note to the effect that a "Miss vs Mrs" equivalent does exist for men. It's not used at all in the United States as far as I know, but I certainly remember being called by the title "Master" when I was in England. Is this still current usage, and where would be a good place to note it? It's an interesting tidbit... Isomorphic 01:04, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)
It's absolutely not current usage in the UK, and anyone who reports being called "Master" was most likely called that as a joke of some sort. A few people in the UK are aware of the usage due to old-fashioned Happy Families cards or similar, but I'd wager that most people haven't even heard of it. Kids these days are playing computer games, not old-fashioned card games, and very few are reading 19th century (children's) fiction, which is the only other place where the term is occasionally found that I can think of. The term was used for male children: I am not sure at what age it would be dropped, but the usage I've seen has been in contrast to a more senior man, so possibly up to 18 or so. I also can't recall seeing it in anything other than upper-class situations, possibly middle-class as well (think butlers!), but then earlier fiction was biased towards upper and middle class anyway. Elettaria ( talk) 10:32, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
I've just added the standard British English (without the full stop — which I'd have thought was peculiar even in U.S. English). The standard British approach is that the full stop is used to mark the cutting off of a word at that point (such as "Street" to "St."), but not otherwise (so "Saint" to "St", as well as "Mr", "Mrs", "Dr", etc.). Needless to say, many people get it wrong, and English is no longer really taught in schools... but that's another issue. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 09:14, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
By that logic the use of Dr, Mr, Mrs, etc. should all follow the British use of these terms. And as a matter of fact Ms doesn't 'get' a full stop (i.e. period) in the UK. Donnachadh 22:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
In England Master is still widely used when addressing males under the age of 12 - especially on hand-written letters but also in general conversation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.145.139.130 ( talk) 10:57, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
As discussed in the "Master" section, the term is very much not in standard English usage today for addressing boys.
The full stop after titles varies enormously these days, to the point where there is no longer a standard usage for this. However, when the full stop is used, it is used for Mr, Mrs and so forth as well. Elettaria ( talk) 10:52, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
Ms. (or Ms) is a title used with the last name or full name of a woman.
Is " Miss" or "Ms." used alone as a term of respect in inner city regions of the US? -- zandperl 20:00, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
I've moved this addition by an anon editor to the Talk page; can anyone provide citations for these claims?
-- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 22:38, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Here's something that I can't get my mind around: what's the point in introducing a new term "Ms" that is pronounced exactly like "Miss", i. e. the term one tries to deprecate? Why not just use "Mrs." [MISSIS] for all women, regardless of their marital status? -- Maikel 14:44, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
Actually, "Ms" is frequently pronounced in a way that is near-impossible to distinguish from "Miss", which is probably the main reason why uptake of the term has been poor. If I ring a company, and they address me as Mrs, and I correct them to Ms, nine times out of ten they will write me down as Miss. I then go on record as being Miss, even though I deliberately said that I was Ms. Pronunciation is a definite problem with this term.
The last time that all women in the UK were addressed by the same title was centuries ago and the title was Mistress. Unfortunately, we can't revive that one for general usage since it's primarily used by dominatrices these days. Elettaria ( talk) 11:01, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
I was surprised to see that the article says Ms was used as early as the 1700s. I have seen 'mistress' and 'Mrs' used in that period as a respectful title but without implications of marital status, but have never seen 'Ms'. I checked the OED whose earliest reference is "1932 N.Y. Times 29 May III. 2/8 In addressing by letter a woman whose marital status is in doubt, should one write ‘M's’ or ‘Miss’?". Any citations for earlier usage? Bluewave 14:24, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
In the UK, Miss is most certainly not old fashioned or out of use. Admittedly I've never worked in a high level office situation of sorts, but I've only personally known 1 woman who went by "Ms" and she was a widow who used it to avoid awkward questions about her husband. In the way some of my girl friends use it, I would assume that "Miss" is actually kind of used with the pride of being young, beautiful and free.
When I was a child I was always referred to as "Master" and it is an option on forms that young people may fill out. Unfortunately, my bank and everything else I was signed up to changed me to "Mr" on my 16th birthday (when you become an independant adult in the UK). Rather than campaigng for Ms, I'd rather campaign for Master so that I don't always have to answer the phone with "which Mr MacFarlane?".
In Australia, it's considered polite to use Ms when you don't know a woman's preference. I know many women who are insist on being a Ms, while others still prefer Miss or Mrs. Personally I would take offence at being addressed as Miss (since I am not a flighty sixteen year old) or Mrs (since although I am married, I do not use my husbands surname). Oooh yes. I'm one of those nasty feminists. -- veracity-or-mendacity 14:31, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
"I would assume that "Miss" is actually kind of used with the pride of being young, beautiful and free." Er, you do realise how appallingly sexist that comment is, don't you?
Re. databases: I've noticed that when I say "Ms", many people hear it as "Miss" because they forget that Ms is an option, even when they're meant to be using it (the term's been around for long enough, for heaven's sake). Was it a database that relied on someone hearing the title correctly? Elettaria ( talk) 10:56, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
The article mentions that the non-sexist form of address in Spanish is señora, but it's been my understanding that if I do not know a woman's marital status (or whether she's a virgin or not, which is supposedly also used as a distinction between señora and señorita), the safest route is always to use señorita, even if it's an 80-year-old woman. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.7.222.240 ( talk) 19:44, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Just like British and American English present different ways of addressing, however minor they may be, so it happens with Portuguese. Portuguese as spoken in Portugal presents important differences from Portuguese as spoken in Brazil. As such, a Brazilian would call a young unmarried woman as senhorita, but not a Portuguese, who would say menina.
Since this is the first time I'm doing any sort of editing at Wikipedia, I feel a bit uncertain about editing the article. However, the examples at the end ought to have the Portuguese with the two words, senhorita / menina.
Sarai -- 85.240.249.102 18:45, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
For some reason the citation I gave has irregular spacing in the "Notes" section - there's an enormous space between two of the words ("Cultural" and "Heritage"). Does anyone know how to fix it? -- DearPrudence 02:52, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Removed as the specifics of this interview aren't relevant to the subject matter. 195.24.29.51 13:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Ms. is an American invention. Why is this written with a very clear and noticeable UK slant, even mentioning the titles of nobility in the first sentence? Why are style standards quoted from UK publications and not American?
And why is it claimed that most women prefer to style themselves Miss or Mrs.? That's clearly incorrect.
Bottom line: As "Ms." is an American word, this article needs Americn punctuation, American citations, and American usages. Softlavender 09:51, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
It ISN'T an American invention, that's why. Americans taking credit for British developments is almost a tradition though. 81.107.23.175 ( talk) 22:10, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
Softlavender, where does it say Wikipedia articles should take the US usage as default? I seem to recall the directive to be merely to keep British or US usage consistent within an article, however in this case I think it could be argued - since the article is a discussion of the term itself - that it should contain mention both usages. However, it appears someone else has already seen the need and fixed that already.
Also, I've also listed a reference to a US source regarding usage of Ms. to keep you happy. -- veracity-or-mendacity 14:27, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Speaking for the UK: last I checked, there was no longer a default title for women, either in business correspondence or elsewhere. It is definitely not the case that Ms is reserved for divorcées or business use. Many women prefer the title for simple reasons of feminism. I myself have used it all my adult life, since my marital status is nobody's business. Some companies will address women by default as Ms, particularly in a mailshot or similar. Others will address women by default as Mrs, especially verbally, and a great many women find this pretty offensive. I've just had to explain to two staff at John Lewis that they really shouldn't assume that every woman they speak to is both straight and married! Ms is particularly useful these days since the simple division of women into not-yet-married/married is long gone, and so many people divorce, remarry, keep their maiden names, are in same-sex relationships (both "Miss" and "Mrs" are wrong for someone in a civil partnership), and most commonly of all, may be living with a partner (not single, not married).
As for French plurals, they are highly formal, old-fashioned and only rarely used these days. People don't say "Mesdames and Messieurs" when speaking, they say, "Ladies and gentlemen", and the only time I've seen "Mess." used in written form, it tends to be something like a novel from several decades ago when someone is quoting a letter from a publisher, lawyer or similar. However, when writing a business letter to someone whose name is not known, "Dear Sir or Madam" is still standard, and women are occasionally addressed as "Madam" verbally, though again this is fairly formal and old-fashioned, and there are very few women who actively prefer being called "Madam". Elettaria ( talk) 10:59, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
Someone has requested a citation for "... British school children may also address female teachers as Miss regardless of marital status." This is a simple fact of British society and, in my opinion, does not need a citation to support it although I can understand non-Brits questioning this. Finding material that demonstrates this and including proof that the teacher is indeed married may be difficult.
Laurie Lee's short story Village School features the crabby Miss B and her successor Miss Wardley. The children address Miss Wardley saying "Oh, miss, please miss, can I go round the back?" and "Please, miss, I got to stay 'ome tomorrow...". Does anyone know of a suitable citation where a married teacher is addressed as "Miss"? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
84.178.181.71 (
talk)
11:39, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
There was a second pronunciation listed for the schwa sound instead of the short i sound. The schwa sound is incorrect -- I've never heard it pronounced that way in 37 years, and I can find no printed substantiation of that, so I removed it. (Besides, as far as I am aware, the schwa sound occurs in polysyllabic words, not in single-syllable words.) Softlavender ( talk) 04:47, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
The plural of mister is messrs. What is the plural of ms? -- Camaeron ( talk) 20:31, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I feel this should be clarified by the addition of '...in the USA'; it is unwarranted when applied to the UK. The citation for that point - 'Emily Post Etiquette Institute' - is also inaccurate for localities outside the USA. Strangely the article includes (further down) 'citation needed' for the fact that usage in the UK is sparse to say the least (outside of the BBC), yet I struggle to see how one can possibly provide a definitive citation aside from the fact that anyone in the UK would simply know it to be true (any online 'citation' would be no more useful or applicable than the Emily Post page). Yet twice this article suggests that Ms. is a universal standard for business correspondence. This is just not true in the UK (and I suspect anywhere outside the USA) except among the 'right-on' brigade. 82.36.75.208 ( talk) 14:38, 29 March 2008 (UTC) xyster
As a francophone, I would like to seriously question the affirmation that the word "madame" is used for both married and unmarried women. It's a rather clumsy faux-pas to use the term "madame" for an unmarried woman and one is held to use "mademoiselle" when your common sense suggests that the person is unmarried (clued in by age or other factors) or when told the person goes under the honourific "mademoiselle". For instance, you would never employ the term "madame" for a late-teen or early twenties woman unless you know for a fact she is married. Address her as "madame" and she likely would correct you on the spot with a "ah non, c'est mademoiselle".
Actually, in Canada, there is a French equivalent to the English Ms. it it: Madelle(md) which takes is plural as Mesdelles (Mds.) You can look it up on French wikipedia: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madelle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.224.227.150 ( talk) 20:32, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
In my work I have to sometimes translate things from Dutch (native) to English. Came across something that puzzled me. In Dutch, a name like Marianne de Vries will have capitalisation in the Dutch Mevrouw De Vries ('mevrouw' being 'Mrs(.)/Ms(.)'). What happens when I write in English? Ms(.) de Vries or Ms(.) De Vries? (Please note that in Flemish names of Dutch origin other rules apply; I'm not even going into the 'van der Meulen/Van der Meulen/Van Der Meulen' varieties). Any styleguides deal with that? Personally I think it would be a good addition to the article (as that very question was the reason I looked up the wikipage) but perhaps others think otherwise? Or is it just common sense and you should go with your 'own' language's system? -- Charades ( talk) 10:11, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
The old pronunciation section just listed four pronunciations, ID'ing none of them as more or less standard, stressed vs. unstressed, etc. For say a foreigner trying to figure out how to pronounce it, just giving a bunch like this won't help. My dictionary, "Webster's New World College Dictionary", which is a medium-large dictionary at 1,669 8.5x11in pages, and which focuses primarily on American usage, only lists one, /mɪz/. This is clearly the stressed form in General American. When nonstressed, GA'ers might say /mɪz/, but in faster speech more likely /məz/ or even /məs/ before a voiceless consonant. In general, when giving pronunciations, we should focus on the "standard" pronunciations, i.e. General American and RP for British; identify the fact that we're giving standard pronunciations (which might not be universal) and identify variant contexts (e.g. stressed vs. unstressed, American vs. British). The reason for this is not to try and force the standards down anyone's throat but simply to avoid having what we had here: a large, random collection of variants, none identified as to which to use in which circmcumstance. Trying to list lots of dialect pronunciations just leads to a mess; and besides, the point of these pronunciations is mostly for foreigners, who will (naturally) want to learn the standard language of their adopted country. Native English speakers already know the pronunciation. Benwing ( talk) 06:53, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
"In areas such as the American South, a woman's first name or "Miss", with the inclusion of her first name is the title used and generally preferred for women of any age regardless of marital status."
I dispute this. I'm a lifelong southerner and I'd agree that it is common for children to do that or adults in front of children or in very informal situations, but in the business community or in more formal situations, it'd be almost unheard of. I second the "citation needed" tag. 108.93.144.242 ( talk) 04:29, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
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Since single mothers are deemed to be unmarried women, is it correct to address such women as Ms. <surname>? If the mother has a daughter, then there's a need to distinguish the two if their surname is used in shorthand. Example, the older Ms. <surname> refers to the mother and the younger Ms. <surname> refers to her daughter. SignOfTheDoubleCross ( talk) 07:48, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
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I heard that 'Ms' was first used as a convenient honorific for women in general by the American mail-order houses in the 1920's. Valetude ( talk) 01:09, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
Some women take on their husband’s surname and the title Mrs when they get married. Some women prefer to keep their surname and use the title Ms -- Backinstadiums ( talk) 15:58, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
Fowler reads
The plural is Mss(.) or Mses
-- Backinstadiums ( talk) 09:04, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
This article seems to make no mention of this usage.
This seems prevalent enough to be worth mention. Is independently published research on this pattern necessary to get this usage mentioned in the article?