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Movses of Kalankatuyk wrote the history of Caucasian Albania, so naturally the page falls into History of Azerbaijan category as well. Atabek 22:00, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Grandmaster, please elaborate by quote of him being Albanian. General consensus is he is Armenian, and unless your source satisfactorily exceptional on the topic, I disagree with keeping reference on him being "Albanian." I mean, he did after all write in the Armenian language, not in "Aluani" - pretty clear indication. Hetoum I 11:10, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Many users here don't speak Russian, and by translating the only part where it suits your needs, is pov pushing. VartanM 06:44, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
MarshalBagramyan, your last edit has refrence to non-neutral source while you have reverted neutral source. -- Dacy69 21:14, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
You have a convoluted understanding of what a third party source is (as the SAE obviously is, whether it's written in Armenian or not), and there is no such rule, as I have been explaining this to you for one year now yet you have been unable to understand this, that stipulates that we only stick with them.
I don't see the problem either: they don't contradict one another although Minorsky cleverly plays it safe with his wording by not going into the matter of his identity by mentioning only location and language. In any case, it says Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia, not the Great Armenian Encyclopedia. You can twist the rules all you like as you have for all this time you have been on Wikipedia by maintaining your faux "third-party" line every time you hear something you don't like in a certain source, but this has become a nauseating habit of you constantly suppressing sources strictly because of the ethnic basis of the authors, and never on the content of what they say. -- Marshal Bagramyan 19:50, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
GM, Trever deserves much more corroborating sources to bear inclusion. Currently, a Google search on him shows him being quoted all over by Azeri websites [3]. Some even show that he is quoting Farida Mamedova and other Azeri sources. -- Marshal Bagramyan 17:33, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Fringe opinions are allowed to be discarded. In either case, Trever needs to work on her consistency, as she offers differing opinions on Kaghankatvati's ethnicity from one publication to another. -- Marshal Bagramyan 22:36, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Please explain why opinion of Trever and Minorsky is fringe and why it was deleted from the article? Kamilla Trever was a notable Russian scholar, academician, corresponding member of Russian Academy of Sciences and historian with international reputation. Here’s her profile from the official website of the Russian Academy of Sciences: [4] Her work was praised by international experts. For example, David M. Lang wrote:
Particularly valuable is Kamilla Trever's Ocherki po istorii i kulture Kavkazskoi Albanii (1959).
David M. Lang. Reviewed Work(s): The History of the Caucasian Albanians by Movses Dasxuranci. by Movses Dasxuranci; C. J. F. Dowsett. Slavic Review, Vol. 22, No. 1. (Mar., 1963), p. 136.
So why the opinion of Trever should be discarded and completely removed from the article? The same with Minorsky, a scholar with international fame. -- Grandmaster 10:54, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I readded info on possible Albanian origin of Movses, as well as info from Minorsky, Trever, etc. I don’t think there should be any problems with presenting all opinions existing in the scholarly circles. Grandmaster 10:33, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
LOL, Welcome back Hetoum jan, I think you went overboard with the sources. Did you spend your vacation traveling across the globe and visiting the libraries? :) -- VartanM 01:36, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Finally rewrote this article to accurately reflect on this person in detail and actually wrote on something other than about the silly notion of him being Albanian.
I did actually go overboard since some people apparently questioned the Armenian identity of this individual. I need not repeat what was said about this obscure Trever. On this goofy Zaza fella. He does the exact same thing calls him Armenian and Albanian in the same work - consistency please. Not to mention the more serious problem of this person calling Kirakos Gandzaketsi and Gosh as "Caucasian Albanians."
Even Turkish sources call him Armenian. None of the sources you provided fall in under Wikipedia exceptional claim-source criteria. Best information on this author was Hacikyan on classical armenian authors, discussing this individual in detail. If Anyone here is uncertain of this individual's ethnic identity, looking at a few books should easily wield 40-60 more sources calling him Armenian. Hetoum I 01:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
To add to Vartan M - At this point what you are doing is no longer removal of sourced information but wholesale vandalism. The article was completely re-written, making the topic more understandable. I even added an image, which you took out blindly
As for your sources, they lack serious credibility, have no base or explanation for their conclusion and represent only 2 weird conclusions opposed to over 60. At this point it is not even a fringe point. There is no "2 sides" to represent equally and fairly. There are 2 morons calling an Armenian manuscript's author "Albanian" without any base. I am sure I can find some sources that say Jessica Biel is a lesbian, or Dennis Rodman is really a shemale, but there is a reason why those things do not find their way into Wikipedia as sources. I am sure you have been on Wiki long enough to understand exceptional and verifiable sources. Do you see where I am going with this? Hetoum I 18:41, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
With such unacademic comment you can go wherever you want. It was first you, who removed sourced information. So, you should add your source to what we had before you vandalized page. But I am not going to start a game - who first, who second. After weekend I am going to add back removed information and rephrase certain part of the article to accomodate both views.-- Dacy69 21:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
The date of creating
fairy tales on this page will not make a difference, whether over the weekend or Monday. As for vandalism, here is a definition:
[7] notice about 20 sources disappearing. If you actually find reliable sources as to why authorship of an Armenian manuscript should be "Caucasian Albanian" I will be willing to talk. Until then, fringe opinions of 2 obscure persons is undue weight, especially since even
Turkish scholars consider him Armenian. There are no 2 views, no arguments, just disruptions on your part.
Hetoum I 02:19, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
2 sources are reliable and they are not obscure by no means. And pls. learn to have decent discussion and then we will talk.--
Dacy69
20:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
lol, they don't even talk about where he got his name from or anything. Like I said, I can find a source calling Jessica Biel a lesbian or someone else a shemale, but there is a reason these are not used as sources. I can find a "source" to back anything I want to say, but it is not necessarily true. Hetoum I 21:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Here is a quote by Trever which Grandmaster provided and somehow forgot to translate the bolded part, and later called it irrelevant.
К.В. Тревер. ОЧЕРКИ ПО ИСТОРИИ И КУЛЬТУРЕ КАВКАЗСКОЙ АЛБАНИИ IV В. ДО Н. Э. - VII В. Н. Э. (источники и литература) -- изданиe Академии наук СССР, М.-Л., 1959
Now, How are we suppose to add that as Trever calls him Albanian? She shows doubt and uncertainty and Grandmaster insist that she maintains that Movses was undoubtedly Albanian. Considering the 20 sources that call him Armenian and Trever whom shows doubt It is safe to say that She doesn't know what shes talking about.
Zaza Aleksidze source added by Grandmaster and Atabek as an states
No mention of his ethnicity, one can be an Albanian historian and still be ethnically Armenian. Hetoum's version clearly takes this into a consideration and calls him indigenous Armenian historian of Caucasian Albania.
Atabek and Grandmaster are in violation of the Armenia-Azerbaijan2 remedies and are pushing their point of view. VartanM 18:01, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Minorsky calls it an Armenian source written in Armenian. Where is there room for in his opinion to state he was not Armenian? So far there is no reason to call him Albanian when even Turkish authorship calls him Armenian. I just gave 20 sources, and I could give 40 more. Grandmaster, don't you remember the exceptional claims source rule? Hetoum I 03:03, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Your opinion of Trever is OR. pls. refrain from removing sourced info.-- Dacy69 14:45, 4 September 2007 (UTC) Dacy, this is clearly a violation of parole on you part as well as misrepresenting the sources. Trever said one or the other, and you transformed this into O.R. Hetoum I 05:32, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Accusing others of insulting when they did no such thing is an assumption of bad faith. As for the rest please see the discussion below. VartanM 16:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
And, according to you - this is normal language for discussion calling serious scholars morons - [8]-- Dacy69 19:04, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Dacy, you are making a personal attack against me based on what Hetoum said. Please cease your baseless accusations against me and assume good faith. Discuss the subject not the contributer or just wait for an outside opinion just like Grandmaster and I are doing. VartanM 01:54, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
The problem that we have here is that certain users delete sources that suggest that this historian could be Caucasian Albanian by ethnic origin. Clearly, there’s no consensus among the scholars that he was ethnic Armenian. Vladimir Minorsky calls him “indigenous historian of ' Albania”. See the quote:
The work of the indigenous historian of “Albania”, Moses Kalankatvats'i, who wrote in Armenian (10th century), contains many important data, but his obscure hints and sudden breaks in the main thread are often exasperating.
V. Minorsky. Caucasica IV. Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 15, No. 3. (1953), pp. 504-529.
Another quote is from Kamilla Trever, a notable Russian scholar, academician, corresponding member of Russian Academy of Sciences and historian with international reputation. Here’s her profile from the official website of the Russian Academy of Sciences: [9] Her work was praised by international experts. For example, David M. Lang wrote:
Particularly valuable is Kamilla Trever's Ocherki po istorii i kulture Kavkazskoi Albanii (1959).
David M. Lang. Reviewed Work(s): The History of the Caucasian Albanians by Movses Dasxuranci. by Movses Dasxuranci; C. J. F. Dowsett. Slavic Review, Vol. 22, No. 1. (Mar., 1963), p. 136.
This is what she says in the work, praised by professor Lang:
На армянском языке написан первый и единственный труд, посвященный истории Албании, - "История Албании" Моисея Каланкатуйского (Мосес Каланкатваци). Труд этот дошел до нас в нескольких списках и состоит из трех частей; он упоминается армянскими писателями XII--XIII вв. Автор, уроженец сел. Каланкатуйк в области Утик, был по происхождению либо утийцем (албаном), писавшим на армянском языке, либо армянином, что весьма возможно, так как в этот период Арцах и большая часть Утика были уже арменизованы.
К.В. Тревер. ОЧЕРКИ ПО ИСТОРИИ И КУЛЬТУРЕ КАВКАЗСКОЙ АЛБАНИИ IV В. ДО Н. Э. - VII В. Н. Э. (источники и литература) -- изданиe Академии наук СССР, М.-Л., 1959
Translation:
First and only work about the history of Caucasian Albania – History of Albania by Movses of Kalankatuyk – is written in the Armenian language. This work survived to our days in several manuscripts and consists of 3 parts; it is mentioned by Armenian writers of 12 – 13th century. The author, native of the village of Kalankatuyk in Utik, was either uti (Albanian), who wrote in Armenian, or Armenian, which is quite possible, as at that period Artsakh and greater part of Utik were already Armenianised.
In another source she says:
Наиболее ценным источником является "История албанов" Моисея Каланкатваци, по-видимому, албана по происхождению, труд которого дошел до нас на армянском языке; он написал в VII в. две первые книги этой хроники, третья же принадлежит перу другого автора, жившего в X в.
К ВОПРОСУ О КУЛЬТУРЕ КАВКАЗСКОЙ АЛБАНИИ (доклад на XXV Международном конгрессе востоковедов, 1960 год), К.В.ТРЕВЕР, член-корр. АН СССР
The most valuable source is History of Albanians of Moses Kalankatvatsi, apparently Albanian by origin, whose work survived to our days in Armenian, he wrote in VII century the first 2 books of this chronicle, and third one was written by another author, who lived in X century.
And this is the quote from Georgian scholar Zaza Aleksidze, who discovered a unique Albanian written source in Sinai:
The Albanian historian Moses Kalankatyatsi's (Moses Daskhurantsi) work is available in a 10th c. Armenian version. The author wrote his work in the 7th c. and he names the nations that had their own script at that time and mentions Albanian language among them. [10]
All those sources suggest that Movses could be ethnic Albanian by origin. Me and Dacy do not propose to delete Armenian version, we only suggest to mention alternative opinions as well.
Grandmaster 10:58, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Based on the current article and talk (i.e. I havent dug through the article history), very little appears to be known about this author, and he is primarily notable for working on a single book. My initial reaction is that an article about the book is far more important the author, and the authorship is only relevant in context of the book. And yet this article doesnt even mention the real name of the book, a google search for "History of the Country of Albania" turns up nothing, and I had to dig around in WorldCat [11] [12] to find OCLC 165717957. Is that a recent print of the book in question? I have taken the guts of this article over to The History of the Country of Albania so editors familiar with this topic can expand on the importance of this work.
As a general comment on that article, I think it is critical to mention only undisputed facts in the intro to an article. Currently this article doesnt give the reader any assurance what his name is, and his ethnicity is in question, and there are 19 references in lots of languages to justify the first sentence. How is any reader supposed to verify the first sentence is factual? My first thought was that this article should be taken to Afd as it consists entirely of academic musing without any real established facts. Based on the current article, I doubt that we can properly write a biography of the author. A redirect to the book would probably do the trick, but I digress...
With regard to the dispute over the authors ethnicity, I think the introduction should only say .. from the village of Kalankatuyk in Utik, but it could also say ... of either Armenian or Albanian ethnicity. Both of those statements can be attributed to many sources, and ideally we can find one English source that covers it. Then, in a section of the article, the ethnicity debate can be given properly with any and all opinions by scholars provided, with quotes and translations as necessary. John Vandenberg 22:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
The prominent historian of Caucasus V.A. Kuznetsov also calls him an Armenian historian: "..., according to Armenian historian Movses Kaghankatvatsi, ..."https:// "А в конце 20-х годов VIII века, по сообщению армянского историка Мовсеса Каганкатваци, арабы дважды прошли через Абхазию, форсировали Клухорский перевал и нанесли хазарам неожиданные удары с фланга."/ В.А. Кузнецов, В верховьях Большого Зеленчука, Москва, "Искусство", 1977, p. 12 Andranikpasha 11:41, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
It is something like this: "Based on facts and documents, Caucasian Albania's history, as well, was not written by local historians and writers. This country's history was written down by Armenian historians and authors". Enayat Ollah Reza, "Azerbaijan and Aran", Tehran, 1981, p. 133. A common, unrelevant text which even didnt use the name of the person (the topic)... Andranikpasha 11:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Albanians? Can you mark just 2 of these Albanians (just for interest)! Andranikpasha 13:13, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
21 citations on Movses's Armenian ancestry?! Good grief!-- The Diamond Apex ( talk) 15:08, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Movses Kaghankatvatsi/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Well, we finally cleaned it up to talk about Armenian-ness as well controversy over name, which is a big step, considering the confusion over the name. However, we still need more about what he wrote. Hetoum I 04:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 04:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 00:33, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
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Movses of Kalankatuyk wrote the history of Caucasian Albania, so naturally the page falls into History of Azerbaijan category as well. Atabek 22:00, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Grandmaster, please elaborate by quote of him being Albanian. General consensus is he is Armenian, and unless your source satisfactorily exceptional on the topic, I disagree with keeping reference on him being "Albanian." I mean, he did after all write in the Armenian language, not in "Aluani" - pretty clear indication. Hetoum I 11:10, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Many users here don't speak Russian, and by translating the only part where it suits your needs, is pov pushing. VartanM 06:44, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
MarshalBagramyan, your last edit has refrence to non-neutral source while you have reverted neutral source. -- Dacy69 21:14, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
You have a convoluted understanding of what a third party source is (as the SAE obviously is, whether it's written in Armenian or not), and there is no such rule, as I have been explaining this to you for one year now yet you have been unable to understand this, that stipulates that we only stick with them.
I don't see the problem either: they don't contradict one another although Minorsky cleverly plays it safe with his wording by not going into the matter of his identity by mentioning only location and language. In any case, it says Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia, not the Great Armenian Encyclopedia. You can twist the rules all you like as you have for all this time you have been on Wikipedia by maintaining your faux "third-party" line every time you hear something you don't like in a certain source, but this has become a nauseating habit of you constantly suppressing sources strictly because of the ethnic basis of the authors, and never on the content of what they say. -- Marshal Bagramyan 19:50, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
GM, Trever deserves much more corroborating sources to bear inclusion. Currently, a Google search on him shows him being quoted all over by Azeri websites [3]. Some even show that he is quoting Farida Mamedova and other Azeri sources. -- Marshal Bagramyan 17:33, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Fringe opinions are allowed to be discarded. In either case, Trever needs to work on her consistency, as she offers differing opinions on Kaghankatvati's ethnicity from one publication to another. -- Marshal Bagramyan 22:36, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Please explain why opinion of Trever and Minorsky is fringe and why it was deleted from the article? Kamilla Trever was a notable Russian scholar, academician, corresponding member of Russian Academy of Sciences and historian with international reputation. Here’s her profile from the official website of the Russian Academy of Sciences: [4] Her work was praised by international experts. For example, David M. Lang wrote:
Particularly valuable is Kamilla Trever's Ocherki po istorii i kulture Kavkazskoi Albanii (1959).
David M. Lang. Reviewed Work(s): The History of the Caucasian Albanians by Movses Dasxuranci. by Movses Dasxuranci; C. J. F. Dowsett. Slavic Review, Vol. 22, No. 1. (Mar., 1963), p. 136.
So why the opinion of Trever should be discarded and completely removed from the article? The same with Minorsky, a scholar with international fame. -- Grandmaster 10:54, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I readded info on possible Albanian origin of Movses, as well as info from Minorsky, Trever, etc. I don’t think there should be any problems with presenting all opinions existing in the scholarly circles. Grandmaster 10:33, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
LOL, Welcome back Hetoum jan, I think you went overboard with the sources. Did you spend your vacation traveling across the globe and visiting the libraries? :) -- VartanM 01:36, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Finally rewrote this article to accurately reflect on this person in detail and actually wrote on something other than about the silly notion of him being Albanian.
I did actually go overboard since some people apparently questioned the Armenian identity of this individual. I need not repeat what was said about this obscure Trever. On this goofy Zaza fella. He does the exact same thing calls him Armenian and Albanian in the same work - consistency please. Not to mention the more serious problem of this person calling Kirakos Gandzaketsi and Gosh as "Caucasian Albanians."
Even Turkish sources call him Armenian. None of the sources you provided fall in under Wikipedia exceptional claim-source criteria. Best information on this author was Hacikyan on classical armenian authors, discussing this individual in detail. If Anyone here is uncertain of this individual's ethnic identity, looking at a few books should easily wield 40-60 more sources calling him Armenian. Hetoum I 01:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
To add to Vartan M - At this point what you are doing is no longer removal of sourced information but wholesale vandalism. The article was completely re-written, making the topic more understandable. I even added an image, which you took out blindly
As for your sources, they lack serious credibility, have no base or explanation for their conclusion and represent only 2 weird conclusions opposed to over 60. At this point it is not even a fringe point. There is no "2 sides" to represent equally and fairly. There are 2 morons calling an Armenian manuscript's author "Albanian" without any base. I am sure I can find some sources that say Jessica Biel is a lesbian, or Dennis Rodman is really a shemale, but there is a reason why those things do not find their way into Wikipedia as sources. I am sure you have been on Wiki long enough to understand exceptional and verifiable sources. Do you see where I am going with this? Hetoum I 18:41, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
With such unacademic comment you can go wherever you want. It was first you, who removed sourced information. So, you should add your source to what we had before you vandalized page. But I am not going to start a game - who first, who second. After weekend I am going to add back removed information and rephrase certain part of the article to accomodate both views.-- Dacy69 21:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
The date of creating
fairy tales on this page will not make a difference, whether over the weekend or Monday. As for vandalism, here is a definition:
[7] notice about 20 sources disappearing. If you actually find reliable sources as to why authorship of an Armenian manuscript should be "Caucasian Albanian" I will be willing to talk. Until then, fringe opinions of 2 obscure persons is undue weight, especially since even
Turkish scholars consider him Armenian. There are no 2 views, no arguments, just disruptions on your part.
Hetoum I 02:19, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
2 sources are reliable and they are not obscure by no means. And pls. learn to have decent discussion and then we will talk.--
Dacy69
20:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
lol, they don't even talk about where he got his name from or anything. Like I said, I can find a source calling Jessica Biel a lesbian or someone else a shemale, but there is a reason these are not used as sources. I can find a "source" to back anything I want to say, but it is not necessarily true. Hetoum I 21:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Here is a quote by Trever which Grandmaster provided and somehow forgot to translate the bolded part, and later called it irrelevant.
К.В. Тревер. ОЧЕРКИ ПО ИСТОРИИ И КУЛЬТУРЕ КАВКАЗСКОЙ АЛБАНИИ IV В. ДО Н. Э. - VII В. Н. Э. (источники и литература) -- изданиe Академии наук СССР, М.-Л., 1959
Now, How are we suppose to add that as Trever calls him Albanian? She shows doubt and uncertainty and Grandmaster insist that she maintains that Movses was undoubtedly Albanian. Considering the 20 sources that call him Armenian and Trever whom shows doubt It is safe to say that She doesn't know what shes talking about.
Zaza Aleksidze source added by Grandmaster and Atabek as an states
No mention of his ethnicity, one can be an Albanian historian and still be ethnically Armenian. Hetoum's version clearly takes this into a consideration and calls him indigenous Armenian historian of Caucasian Albania.
Atabek and Grandmaster are in violation of the Armenia-Azerbaijan2 remedies and are pushing their point of view. VartanM 18:01, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Minorsky calls it an Armenian source written in Armenian. Where is there room for in his opinion to state he was not Armenian? So far there is no reason to call him Albanian when even Turkish authorship calls him Armenian. I just gave 20 sources, and I could give 40 more. Grandmaster, don't you remember the exceptional claims source rule? Hetoum I 03:03, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Your opinion of Trever is OR. pls. refrain from removing sourced info.-- Dacy69 14:45, 4 September 2007 (UTC) Dacy, this is clearly a violation of parole on you part as well as misrepresenting the sources. Trever said one or the other, and you transformed this into O.R. Hetoum I 05:32, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Accusing others of insulting when they did no such thing is an assumption of bad faith. As for the rest please see the discussion below. VartanM 16:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
And, according to you - this is normal language for discussion calling serious scholars morons - [8]-- Dacy69 19:04, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Dacy, you are making a personal attack against me based on what Hetoum said. Please cease your baseless accusations against me and assume good faith. Discuss the subject not the contributer or just wait for an outside opinion just like Grandmaster and I are doing. VartanM 01:54, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
The problem that we have here is that certain users delete sources that suggest that this historian could be Caucasian Albanian by ethnic origin. Clearly, there’s no consensus among the scholars that he was ethnic Armenian. Vladimir Minorsky calls him “indigenous historian of ' Albania”. See the quote:
The work of the indigenous historian of “Albania”, Moses Kalankatvats'i, who wrote in Armenian (10th century), contains many important data, but his obscure hints and sudden breaks in the main thread are often exasperating.
V. Minorsky. Caucasica IV. Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 15, No. 3. (1953), pp. 504-529.
Another quote is from Kamilla Trever, a notable Russian scholar, academician, corresponding member of Russian Academy of Sciences and historian with international reputation. Here’s her profile from the official website of the Russian Academy of Sciences: [9] Her work was praised by international experts. For example, David M. Lang wrote:
Particularly valuable is Kamilla Trever's Ocherki po istorii i kulture Kavkazskoi Albanii (1959).
David M. Lang. Reviewed Work(s): The History of the Caucasian Albanians by Movses Dasxuranci. by Movses Dasxuranci; C. J. F. Dowsett. Slavic Review, Vol. 22, No. 1. (Mar., 1963), p. 136.
This is what she says in the work, praised by professor Lang:
На армянском языке написан первый и единственный труд, посвященный истории Албании, - "История Албании" Моисея Каланкатуйского (Мосес Каланкатваци). Труд этот дошел до нас в нескольких списках и состоит из трех частей; он упоминается армянскими писателями XII--XIII вв. Автор, уроженец сел. Каланкатуйк в области Утик, был по происхождению либо утийцем (албаном), писавшим на армянском языке, либо армянином, что весьма возможно, так как в этот период Арцах и большая часть Утика были уже арменизованы.
К.В. Тревер. ОЧЕРКИ ПО ИСТОРИИ И КУЛЬТУРЕ КАВКАЗСКОЙ АЛБАНИИ IV В. ДО Н. Э. - VII В. Н. Э. (источники и литература) -- изданиe Академии наук СССР, М.-Л., 1959
Translation:
First and only work about the history of Caucasian Albania – History of Albania by Movses of Kalankatuyk – is written in the Armenian language. This work survived to our days in several manuscripts and consists of 3 parts; it is mentioned by Armenian writers of 12 – 13th century. The author, native of the village of Kalankatuyk in Utik, was either uti (Albanian), who wrote in Armenian, or Armenian, which is quite possible, as at that period Artsakh and greater part of Utik were already Armenianised.
In another source she says:
Наиболее ценным источником является "История албанов" Моисея Каланкатваци, по-видимому, албана по происхождению, труд которого дошел до нас на армянском языке; он написал в VII в. две первые книги этой хроники, третья же принадлежит перу другого автора, жившего в X в.
К ВОПРОСУ О КУЛЬТУРЕ КАВКАЗСКОЙ АЛБАНИИ (доклад на XXV Международном конгрессе востоковедов, 1960 год), К.В.ТРЕВЕР, член-корр. АН СССР
The most valuable source is History of Albanians of Moses Kalankatvatsi, apparently Albanian by origin, whose work survived to our days in Armenian, he wrote in VII century the first 2 books of this chronicle, and third one was written by another author, who lived in X century.
And this is the quote from Georgian scholar Zaza Aleksidze, who discovered a unique Albanian written source in Sinai:
The Albanian historian Moses Kalankatyatsi's (Moses Daskhurantsi) work is available in a 10th c. Armenian version. The author wrote his work in the 7th c. and he names the nations that had their own script at that time and mentions Albanian language among them. [10]
All those sources suggest that Movses could be ethnic Albanian by origin. Me and Dacy do not propose to delete Armenian version, we only suggest to mention alternative opinions as well.
Grandmaster 10:58, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Based on the current article and talk (i.e. I havent dug through the article history), very little appears to be known about this author, and he is primarily notable for working on a single book. My initial reaction is that an article about the book is far more important the author, and the authorship is only relevant in context of the book. And yet this article doesnt even mention the real name of the book, a google search for "History of the Country of Albania" turns up nothing, and I had to dig around in WorldCat [11] [12] to find OCLC 165717957. Is that a recent print of the book in question? I have taken the guts of this article over to The History of the Country of Albania so editors familiar with this topic can expand on the importance of this work.
As a general comment on that article, I think it is critical to mention only undisputed facts in the intro to an article. Currently this article doesnt give the reader any assurance what his name is, and his ethnicity is in question, and there are 19 references in lots of languages to justify the first sentence. How is any reader supposed to verify the first sentence is factual? My first thought was that this article should be taken to Afd as it consists entirely of academic musing without any real established facts. Based on the current article, I doubt that we can properly write a biography of the author. A redirect to the book would probably do the trick, but I digress...
With regard to the dispute over the authors ethnicity, I think the introduction should only say .. from the village of Kalankatuyk in Utik, but it could also say ... of either Armenian or Albanian ethnicity. Both of those statements can be attributed to many sources, and ideally we can find one English source that covers it. Then, in a section of the article, the ethnicity debate can be given properly with any and all opinions by scholars provided, with quotes and translations as necessary. John Vandenberg 22:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
The prominent historian of Caucasus V.A. Kuznetsov also calls him an Armenian historian: "..., according to Armenian historian Movses Kaghankatvatsi, ..."https:// "А в конце 20-х годов VIII века, по сообщению армянского историка Мовсеса Каганкатваци, арабы дважды прошли через Абхазию, форсировали Клухорский перевал и нанесли хазарам неожиданные удары с фланга."/ В.А. Кузнецов, В верховьях Большого Зеленчука, Москва, "Искусство", 1977, p. 12 Andranikpasha 11:41, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
It is something like this: "Based on facts and documents, Caucasian Albania's history, as well, was not written by local historians and writers. This country's history was written down by Armenian historians and authors". Enayat Ollah Reza, "Azerbaijan and Aran", Tehran, 1981, p. 133. A common, unrelevant text which even didnt use the name of the person (the topic)... Andranikpasha 11:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Albanians? Can you mark just 2 of these Albanians (just for interest)! Andranikpasha 13:13, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
21 citations on Movses's Armenian ancestry?! Good grief!-- The Diamond Apex ( talk) 15:08, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Movses Kaghankatvatsi/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Well, we finally cleaned it up to talk about Armenian-ness as well controversy over name, which is a big step, considering the confusion over the name. However, we still need more about what he wrote. Hetoum I 04:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 04:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 00:33, 30 April 2016 (UTC)