This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
This article needs to be wikified and needs cleanup to bring it to encyclopedic quality. -- Rschen7754 19:09, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
I strongly agree with your comment Rschen7754. It's nice to see someone out there is actually looking at what has been added.! --
CyclePat
19:59, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm actually going to put this up for transwiki to Wikisource. It doesn't belong here. -- Woohookitty 02:12, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
This article needs a good bit of cleanup. It contains original research (which is prohibited -- read this Wikipedia:No original research), and the original author's personal opinions besides. The portions that aren't original research or opinion are essentially regurgitations of various laws. There may be an article to be had somewhere in here, but I don't think this one is it. Is the original author around somewhere? · Katefan0 (scribble) 04:22, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
· Katefan0 (scribble) 04:30, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
I moved the original text of this article over to Wikisource. It is here. I did not put it on the transwiki log page, because there is a place on here for this article. It just needs to be heavily copyedited. But just you know, CyclePat, your original text is on one of the other wikis. -- Woohookitty 04:46, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Actually, in our usage, the stub tag is essentially used to denote short articles that need to be expanded. It is not used like the word can also be used, which is to mean that it's a part of another article. And when I say short, I mean a paragraph or two. This article doesn't qualify.-- Woohookitty 11:42, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
And, you might want to read the Manual of Style or choose the "random page" button to take a look at basic Wikipedia format. I fixed a few things just now that gets it a bit more in line with basic Wikipedia format. -- Woohookitty 11:49, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
CyclePat...Again, the learning curve is steep on here, so don't take my words as criticism. Just trying to help you understand how things work here. Putting every law on electric bicycles on here per country or area is not encyclopedic. Discussing every law on here per every country or area is not encyclopedic. The problem is that it's original research. We can't really add sections on each of our areas. Encyclopedias do not have original research. They take research from other sources. And as I said, it just isn't encyclopedic. This article needs to follow the format of other Wikipedia articles. It needs to be...this is what electric bicycles are...this is the history of them...these are the uses of them...and here are the general principles in law with electric bicycles. The other thing is that you reverted all of the headings back to the incorrect format. The = Format = isn't really used on here. The highest heading we use tends to be == Format == If you want to restore the Ontario section, go ahead. We'll then edit it from there. But please don't revert the copyedits Katefan and I made. Not yelling at ya. :) Honest. :) Just letting you know. If you want a guide as to what I am talking about, the moped article is a good guide. That article is a bit sparse. We could probably use a history section, which they don't have. But otherwise, it has what I mean. -- Woohookitty 00:13, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
I went ahead and fixed the headers and some spelling. Again, we don't use the = = header like it had for Jurisdictional Information. It just isn't used. I took out the laws. They weren't showing up anyway and the laws are at Wikisource already. No reason to have them here. Tonight, I'm going to find a picture to add to the article and I'll see if I can do some editing that hopefully will satisfy everyone. -- Woohookitty 15:31, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
I see we already have an article on mopeds. Are "electric bicycles" sufficiently different than mopeds enough to have two separate articles? · Katefan0 (scribble) 15:45, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
I did some rewriting to make things a bit more readable. Something close to the previous version of the text was pasted at the top of the section afterwards. I reverted this, because it did not appear to add any information that was not already there. I do have a question, though: the text that was added says both "In the Ontario "Highway traffic act" a "power-assisted bicycle"(PAB) is not defined." and "For example, a PAB and a moped are both defined as...". That would appear to contradict itself. Can someone actually explain to me whether or not there are factual errors in the current version, which takes the latter of those two as correct? -- Alynna 22:21, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
see my comment I left on you page --
CyclePat
22:38, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
You did some nice work. But your information about having a "power-assisted bicycle defined in the HTA is wrong. (a power-assisted bicycle is NOT defined in the HTA) I changed it once. I'm going to do it again NOW and I expect you to leave it as is. -- CyclePat 22:35, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Okay! then... prove it! What is you substantiated proof to say that it is in the HTA? Find it and site the section and I'll be happy. Just because everyone believed the world was flat doesn't mean it is!-- CyclePat 23:06, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Here it is: The Revision as of 22:17, 24 October 2005 found here: [1] had eronious information within the article stating that:
"...the Highway Traffic Act (HTA) defines both a power-assisted bicycle and a motor-assisted bicycle..."
This information is false. I had original written some information on the subject that was mis-construed. I have re-writen it to be cristal clear. I hope. Now my argument is simple. The afformentioned statement is false because it has not been proven. Prove it if you wish to keep it (the old version) as I believe you had previously indicated... or move on to the new stuff like I just posted. -- CyclePat 23:16, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Would I be correct in saying that what you're trying to convey here is that the HTA does not define a PAB, but it defines a motor-assisted bicycle in a way that sounds like a PAB? If so, I misunderstood the first time around, but it's still not clear. -- Alynna 23:34, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Hello, Actually... I have "the book of knowlege" encyclopedia right in my basement. I will say again. The encyclopedia does have a copy of the entire US constitution as well as a facimile URtext. So what is the problem in incorperating the entire section of law.--CyclePat 23:20, 24 October 2005
Is there an established standard for how to include information like "in thus-and-so-section" in a way that's clearly distinguished from the surrounding text? Should it be a footnote, or italicised, or something? -- Alynna 15:48, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
The MTO specifically indicated to me via a telecom on the 21st of Oct that they are refering to the PAB as described within the picture. (reference to the link someone keeps removing) I have added that information and someone keeps removing it. -- CyclePat 16:39, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
64.230.49.232 05:11, 31 October 2005 (UTC) Alynna: You are correct. ALL PABs are illegal in Ontario. Only mopeds are legal. THe PAB that is shown is not allowed, and all other PABs are also not allowed. It seems CyclePat managed to convince someone that his bike is a moped, even though it doesn't meet any of the motor-vehicle requirements for limited-speed motorcycles/mopeds whatever and managed to get moped registration. An extreme case. Not "certain types of PABs" are not allowed - but ALL PABs are not allowed - with the exception of CyclePat who seemed to register his.
(this conversation is continued further down in this discussion page)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Motorized_bicycle#Ontario_Moped_Registration)--
CyclePat
19:56, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
There is some discrepencies that seem to occure when Mari edited the sources in this article. I have edited this 2 times already. and it keeps getting changed back. The names of the sources quotes are correct as of a few minutes ago. The Canada Road safety code doesn't exist at the URL that was beeing provide... (Heck I don't even think it exist's at all) if you want to refer to canada... It's called the Motor vehicle safety Act. The Url that was beeing provided is for Quebec.
Same for Ontario's Highway Traffic Act. The name of that law is called "Highway Traffic act" and not "the Ontario highway traffic act."... For God sacks it's written on the top of the source. And often it's written within the law on how it should be titled.
--
CyclePat
16:59, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Is the Highway Traffic Act the only thing by that name? i.e., if I'm in England or Chile or New Zealand, am I going to know that the Highway Traffic Act is something in Ontario? Or is it possible there is another jurisdiction that has also passed a law called the Highway Traffic Act? If the latter, we do need to specify Ontario. -- Alynna 16:59, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Stress is a killer right? All this constant editing feel like a stress load of back stabing. I'm also quite cinical to critical comments and even more to critical changes that happen without very much discusion. Think about it. You know something is wrong in your heart. The government is feeding what might be construed as misleading propaganda. you're trying to convince the world on a fabulous idea/inovation that is being restricted because of the lack of complacency of the Ontario government to changes it laws. (ie.: insurance discrimination article I publish in the Ottawa citizen, the petition I'm organising for the "proper" legalisation of this PAB... so it doesn't have to be considered a Moped (like in Quebec)(and hence wouldn't require plating, insurance, etc..)
Think about, it feels like, almost everyone you talk to doesn't believe you. Then you finally have a place to put down your "research" /summary of laws, and etc... to try and explain the current political situation but it is edited like crazy. To the point where it no longer makes sense. there are errors. And when they finally undestand the truth they don't even believe it themself's. (I have trouble digesting the entire scope of the situation)(ie.: Personal experience with the financial service commission of Ontario, Ombudsmans, lawyers, 2 1/2 years of experience, my personal insurance company, facility insurance, Mpp's, etc... (almost a full time job when you think about it on how to legally operate a PAB on the road.) It's a, no wonder I feel like a need to bold... and I think someone did say be bold in your edits. -- CyclePat 17:50, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
format)(with some autographical mistakes) -- CyclePat 18:32, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
here is a draft copy of my Petition (as of august 29th) -- CyclePat 18:34, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Power-Assisted Bicycle (PAB) Petition WE the undersigned petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:
WHEREAS in 2001 the federal government introduced a new class of vehicle, Power-Assisted bicycle (PAB), which defines an electric-assist bicycle as a distinct vehicle classification, different from a moped or motorcycle;
WHEREAS we request the Ontario's Highway Traffic Act (H.T.A.) recognize this new vehicle classification. The H.T.A. does not currently recognize, nor allow the "per-say" operation of this new class of vehicle;
WHEREAS currently in Ontario a PAB must be registered, plated and insured as a Motor-assisted bicycle (MOPED). Though it is possible to register, plate and insure as a MOPED there are still many unresolved issues and obviously higher costs associated toward it's use.
WHEREAS British Columbia and Quebec have already modified their provincial legislation to reflect the federal definition for electrec-assisted bicycles and hence a PAB may be used on the road without the need for automobile insurance;
WHEREAS we request that the Ontario Government review and amend its current legislation and Insurance Act which results in discrimination against all MOPED owners.
WHEREAS paying for automobile insurance in Ontario to ride a PAB is not an option for most people and as a result, forces them into facility insurance and the failure to properly insure such a vehicle can result in fines ranging from 5000$ to 10000$;
WHEREAS the modern electric bicycle is a realistic alternative to the automobile for commutes of 30km or less and making electric bicycles more accessible in Ontario will encourage people to rely less on their motor vehicles and to use bicycles much more;
THEREFORE modifying the Ontario H.T.A. to allow the operation of electric-assisted bicycle or PAB's will reduce the number of cars on the road and help us meet our Kyota targets.
WHEREAS the city of Ottawa, in April 2005, pasted a legislation to encourage the provincial goverment of Ontario to change the Ontario Highway Traffic Act (H.T.A.) pertaining to use of PAB's;
-- CyclePat 18:34, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
How old are we talking? If it's from the last few months, I can try to find the online version for you. Otherwise, as long as you can document it, you can use it. I mean if we couldn't use offline content, we'd be in a world of hurt considering that most books aren't available online. Wikipedia:Cite_sources/example_style has a listing of how to cite things. -- Woohookitty (cat scratches) 13:00, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
I have 3 small videos of approx. 3 megs. and some pictures of a PAB that legally operable in Ontario as a MOPED. What do we do now? How do we upload? -- CyclePat 10:43, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
It looks like a new anonymous editor has made a number of changes. Does anyone know who this is? Should the changes be reverted? There have been changes to factual information, with no explanation... I'm going to leave hir a note about using edit summaries and talk pages, but could someone with more expertise (CyclePat, i'm looking at you) take a look? -- Alynna 20:41, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
I'll revert the changes, since there was no edit summary given for any of them and it did remove some facts. -- Woohookitty (cat scratches) 01:43, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Okay! I'm going to play the devils advocate here but first Thank you guy for the revert. There where to many changes that destroyed to many facts and made the article quite bias. Never the less, the changes done by the IP dude raises the question: "Should we not be presenting the key facts in essay form?" What I mean by that is, currently we are stating examples in the intro and further on we repeat them. Is that enought of an essay format or is it to much? (ex.: Intro: Juristiction... plating in Ontario, then Quebec, then USA, etc.?)(I'm all for keeping it as is, but maybe IP dude was trying to say we're repeating ourselfs?) Then again, IP dude did remove alot of factual information -- CyclePat 04:22, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Is this original research?
Comment was by IP Dude/Anon - I moved it here b/c it seemed more appropriate in talk. --
Alynna
07:32, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
ipguy: I think the line about case law ("is bicycle a vehicle?") is really misleading and should be removed. I put comment to flag that this appears to be unsubstantiated opinion (that a bike is not a vehicle). It clearly is a vehicle - this isn't even something that is in dispute. I think the line should be removed entirely. It isn't relevant to the subject and offers nothing useful IMHO.
It looks like electric bicycles are essentially regular bicycles but they include a small battery-powered motor that assists in pedaling. Is this correct, CyclePat? The main difference between it and the moped is design. Here is a picture. It's from MSN, so we probably can't use the picture, but it gives Katefan and others some help as to what the difference is. It definitely helped me. :) I will ask you though, Pat. Is it completely necessary to have a separate power-assisted cycles article? I mean according to the definition here, they are essentially the same thing. I don't see a need for 2 articles. Electric bicycles do look different enough from mopeds that I can see a separate article, but another separate article on top of this one? I think that's stretching it a bit. -- Woohookitty (cat scratches) 08:05, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
ipguy: correct - bicycles with a small electric motor other differences with mopeds are performance - most mopeds are allowed at least 50km/h. PABs operate at bicycle speeds - typically up to 20mph, but lower in europe. Check this for a good comparison [2]
The MVSR, (in canada) defines a "power-assisted bicycle" as beeing a diferent vehicle classifaction and specifically indicated that it is not a motorcycle or a moped. So, yes it is necessary to have a complete different section for an "electric bicycle" (such as the article that we are working on) seperate from MOped. The reason I called this article "electric bicycle" is because it seems to encompass the many various jurisdictional definitions that exist. This being said, I would hope that "power-assisted bycle" should be incorpareted within "electric bicycles." (as you might have infered from the discussion section of
power-assisted cycles)--
72.57.8.215
19:32, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I merged info from the power-assisted cycles article and made that article a redirect to this one. I did that because this is all under the same house, so to speak. Power-assisted cycles looks like another name for electric bicycles in which case, we don't need 2 articles. One is enough. Don't worry. I didn't alter any facts...I just merged it into this article. I added the references from that article into this one. -- Woohookitty (cat scratches) 08:26, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
ipguy: The two pages - one for power-assisted cycles, and one for electric bicycle were actually appropriate. This is because an electric bike is one version of an assisted bicycle, but not all power assisted bikes are electric.
Historically any bike with any kind of motor added (gas or electric) was "power-assisted". These bikes were known, early on, as "cyclomotor" or "autocycle" or other by other similar names. They were common in Europe pre-dated the term "moped" - the vehicle they developed into (see moped). Bikes of the second kind (electric) are a class of power-assisted bike. Yes - modern electric bikes are power assisted, but they are not mopeds. Because of this common confusion it would have been appropriate to maintain the page on power-assisted cycles, especially for the European connection. I don't know how to "un-merge" your edits though. By combining the info you have introduced a number of factual errors. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.230.66.98 ( talk • contribs) .
64.230.66.98 15:09, 27 October 2005 (UTC)ipguy OK How do I change an editing comment? I want to replace the word (power) with the word (petrol) that I had intended for the last change.
All you need to do is to click on the page history link. You will see a listing of every version of the article since it was created. You can compare versions, look at old versions, etc, etc. That's why edit summaries are important. Otherwise, it's difficult to track changes. I readded the section on types of electric bicycles for you. -- Woohookitty (cat scratches) 17:05, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Would it be appropriate to merge this article, power-assisted cycles, and power-assisted bicycle? If so, would the name power-assisted cycle or power assisted bicycle be more correct? All the others could remain as redirects to the merged article. -- Alynna 19:11, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
64.230.66.98 01:22, 28 October 2005 (UTC) The first one, power-assisted cycle is appropriate. Most of the stuff on that page deals with European cycle issues, and the definition includes any type of motor including gas. It is reflective of the development history of powered bikes and the history they have in Europe. The term "cycle" is appropriate in this context. Choosing power-assisted cycle also reduces (though does not eliminate) confusion with the term Power Assisted Bicycle (PAB) which is used in Canada to define an electric (only) assisted bike.
So to clarify... does power-assisted cycle cover electric bicycles, PABs, and whatever else we're talking about here? If so, that sounds best. -- Alynna 03:50, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and put suggested merge tags on both this and power-assisted cycle. Question: if we do end up merging both to power-assisted cycle, can we start from the framework we've already got here and merge the information from power-assisted cycle into it, and then move the merged article to there? Because, well, this article is a lot prettier at the moment... -- Alynna 04:28, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I hope noone minds, but I've taken pretty much everything except the intro from power-assisted cycle and copied it somewhere here, because it seemed like it was relavent to this article as well and wouldn't be a problem. Whenever it's okay to actually do the merge, all that needs merging is the intro paragraphs (and adding the two external links immediately below the intro paragraph of power-assisted cycle to the external links section, if that's appropriate). -- Alynna 04:51, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I think merging would be a mistake. Electric bikes are a new, emerging vehicle class. There are millions in use in China, and they are just coming out in North America. It is important to recognize the differences between these, and mopeds, or other bicycles that have over the past century been motorized with all manner of gas motors. There should be a page dedicated solely to electric bikes. The real question should be: Is there a more appropriate title or name for the other page (power-assisted cycles)? Perhaps "motorized bicycles" as a more general class, or something like "early mopeds"? Perhaps rename "cyclomotor" and move the electric parts to this page, and the gas stuff over to the moped page?
It is important to draw the distinction between clean, green, environmentally friendly and silent electric bikes, and stinky, smelly, noisy gas powered contraptions. 64.230.77.128 05:03, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Here's the problem...there just aren't enough differences between the different forms of electric bikes right now to warrant 3 separate articles. There might be at some point (which is why once the articles are merged, redirects are made instead of just deleting the articles), but right now, there just isn't enough, especially since electric bikes are listed as also being called power-assisted bikes/cycles. I don't think mopeds should be in the discussion, btw. From what I see, electric bikes are a different animal. No real comparison. Mopeds are more in the motorcycle class. -- Woohookitty (cat scratches) 05:19, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
64.230.77.128 05:25, 28 October 2005 (UTC)There really are only two major categories of electric bikes - pedelec, and power-on-demand. In many ways these differences in how the motor is activated (pedals vs. throttle) really aren't all that important. Much less important than the point you made that they be distinguished from mopeds and other gas powered bikes. One page for electric bikes is enough. Part of ongoing confusion is that they are known by many names, and some of these names are unfortunately also used for gas powered bikes. Let's get rid of the power-assisted cycle page, or at least re-name it something less ambiguous, like motorized bicycle or something.
I think that's the problem Kate, Alynna and I were having. It's just confusing giving all of these names to what are basically the same. I mean they are all regular looking bikes that have battery powered motors attached to them to help pedaling. The exact specs are different, but the actual bikes seem essentially the same. -- Woohookitty (cat scratches) 05:48, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
64.230.77.128 06:05, 28 October 2005 (UTC)We are almost ready to get rid of the power-assisted cycle page if we want to. Almost all of the content has been moved either to the electric bicycle page, or the moped page. This page could remain as a core for developing the huge area of motorized bicycle that have been built over the past hundred years. (see [3] and [4]. Or we can delete it entirely. ???
I found a picture we can use. Added it to the article. It is from the US Department of Energy's website. Public domain. If we do merge this into power-assisted cycles, the picture can be taken with. -- Woohookitty (cat scratches) 02:15, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Some IP guy changed the intro.... I fixed it... I changed the main intro (still has many typos'). Removed factual errors. An electric bike doesn't necessarily have to have a small electric engine. (what does the sized have to do with things) (perhaps the wattage of the motor, but that depends upon jurisdictional regulations... and if you want your electric bicycle to be conform to various standard. (ie.: canada's motor vehicle safety regulations) there is nothing that says an electric bicycle couldn't meet the definitions of various juristictional definitions of other vehicles such as a motorcycle, moped, an off-road 3 wheeler, a dirt bike. Etc.
That is why I also changed, further down in the article, the various names to which in Ontario an electric bike is. By law it is considered a Moped... (In ontario, we could even twist the law a little more and sugest that it could be a wheelchair? but we won't go there yet... or will we?) All this to say... every juristiction will have it's definition of an electric bicycle. I think we should keep the article on "electric bicycles". Most people when they think of a bicycle with a electric motor think... electric bike... electric bicyle? No? -- CyclePat 21:20, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I contacted the engeneer in charge of the safety regulation. RObert Monster. I have iterated that a PAB is registerable as a MOPEd. Someone keeps changing and mis-interpeting the information provide the MTO web page. I personally own a PAB that is registered as a Moped. The article has been changed and is now bias. Can someone revert the change? -- CyclePat 21:20, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
64.230.77.128 has made some interesting edits. Some are nice. good job on the intro. Thank you. Some are not so nice. My question is? If a PAB can not be registers as a MOPED, anymore, who said so? What are the dates? Can you get a me a copy of the letters? (through access to information?) (what are you're sources - name of the individual or technician from MTO) I have quoted that in my article sources, but that was a while ago. I'll call him back up to make sure. I have double checked my information with MTO via special inquiries unit. Again, what are your sources 64.230.77.128 ??? --
CyclePat
05:11, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
64.230.49.232 05:20, 31 October 2005 (UTC) Why not just call any Ontario registration office and ask them if you can register your electric bicycle as a moped? That would be an easy way to find out if they allow it.
I'm pleased with our progress so far. This is the first dispute I've had in awhile where people are cooperating and I appreciate that very much. -- Woohookitty (cat scratches) 02:48, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
This article needs to be wikified and needs cleanup to bring it to encyclopedic quality. -- Rschen7754 19:09, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
I strongly agree with your comment Rschen7754. It's nice to see someone out there is actually looking at what has been added.! --
CyclePat
19:59, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm actually going to put this up for transwiki to Wikisource. It doesn't belong here. -- Woohookitty 02:12, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
This article needs a good bit of cleanup. It contains original research (which is prohibited -- read this Wikipedia:No original research), and the original author's personal opinions besides. The portions that aren't original research or opinion are essentially regurgitations of various laws. There may be an article to be had somewhere in here, but I don't think this one is it. Is the original author around somewhere? · Katefan0 (scribble) 04:22, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
· Katefan0 (scribble) 04:30, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
I moved the original text of this article over to Wikisource. It is here. I did not put it on the transwiki log page, because there is a place on here for this article. It just needs to be heavily copyedited. But just you know, CyclePat, your original text is on one of the other wikis. -- Woohookitty 04:46, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Actually, in our usage, the stub tag is essentially used to denote short articles that need to be expanded. It is not used like the word can also be used, which is to mean that it's a part of another article. And when I say short, I mean a paragraph or two. This article doesn't qualify.-- Woohookitty 11:42, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
And, you might want to read the Manual of Style or choose the "random page" button to take a look at basic Wikipedia format. I fixed a few things just now that gets it a bit more in line with basic Wikipedia format. -- Woohookitty 11:49, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
CyclePat...Again, the learning curve is steep on here, so don't take my words as criticism. Just trying to help you understand how things work here. Putting every law on electric bicycles on here per country or area is not encyclopedic. Discussing every law on here per every country or area is not encyclopedic. The problem is that it's original research. We can't really add sections on each of our areas. Encyclopedias do not have original research. They take research from other sources. And as I said, it just isn't encyclopedic. This article needs to follow the format of other Wikipedia articles. It needs to be...this is what electric bicycles are...this is the history of them...these are the uses of them...and here are the general principles in law with electric bicycles. The other thing is that you reverted all of the headings back to the incorrect format. The = Format = isn't really used on here. The highest heading we use tends to be == Format == If you want to restore the Ontario section, go ahead. We'll then edit it from there. But please don't revert the copyedits Katefan and I made. Not yelling at ya. :) Honest. :) Just letting you know. If you want a guide as to what I am talking about, the moped article is a good guide. That article is a bit sparse. We could probably use a history section, which they don't have. But otherwise, it has what I mean. -- Woohookitty 00:13, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
I went ahead and fixed the headers and some spelling. Again, we don't use the = = header like it had for Jurisdictional Information. It just isn't used. I took out the laws. They weren't showing up anyway and the laws are at Wikisource already. No reason to have them here. Tonight, I'm going to find a picture to add to the article and I'll see if I can do some editing that hopefully will satisfy everyone. -- Woohookitty 15:31, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
I see we already have an article on mopeds. Are "electric bicycles" sufficiently different than mopeds enough to have two separate articles? · Katefan0 (scribble) 15:45, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
I did some rewriting to make things a bit more readable. Something close to the previous version of the text was pasted at the top of the section afterwards. I reverted this, because it did not appear to add any information that was not already there. I do have a question, though: the text that was added says both "In the Ontario "Highway traffic act" a "power-assisted bicycle"(PAB) is not defined." and "For example, a PAB and a moped are both defined as...". That would appear to contradict itself. Can someone actually explain to me whether or not there are factual errors in the current version, which takes the latter of those two as correct? -- Alynna 22:21, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
see my comment I left on you page --
CyclePat
22:38, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
You did some nice work. But your information about having a "power-assisted bicycle defined in the HTA is wrong. (a power-assisted bicycle is NOT defined in the HTA) I changed it once. I'm going to do it again NOW and I expect you to leave it as is. -- CyclePat 22:35, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Okay! then... prove it! What is you substantiated proof to say that it is in the HTA? Find it and site the section and I'll be happy. Just because everyone believed the world was flat doesn't mean it is!-- CyclePat 23:06, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Here it is: The Revision as of 22:17, 24 October 2005 found here: [1] had eronious information within the article stating that:
"...the Highway Traffic Act (HTA) defines both a power-assisted bicycle and a motor-assisted bicycle..."
This information is false. I had original written some information on the subject that was mis-construed. I have re-writen it to be cristal clear. I hope. Now my argument is simple. The afformentioned statement is false because it has not been proven. Prove it if you wish to keep it (the old version) as I believe you had previously indicated... or move on to the new stuff like I just posted. -- CyclePat 23:16, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Would I be correct in saying that what you're trying to convey here is that the HTA does not define a PAB, but it defines a motor-assisted bicycle in a way that sounds like a PAB? If so, I misunderstood the first time around, but it's still not clear. -- Alynna 23:34, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Hello, Actually... I have "the book of knowlege" encyclopedia right in my basement. I will say again. The encyclopedia does have a copy of the entire US constitution as well as a facimile URtext. So what is the problem in incorperating the entire section of law.--CyclePat 23:20, 24 October 2005
Is there an established standard for how to include information like "in thus-and-so-section" in a way that's clearly distinguished from the surrounding text? Should it be a footnote, or italicised, or something? -- Alynna 15:48, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
The MTO specifically indicated to me via a telecom on the 21st of Oct that they are refering to the PAB as described within the picture. (reference to the link someone keeps removing) I have added that information and someone keeps removing it. -- CyclePat 16:39, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
64.230.49.232 05:11, 31 October 2005 (UTC) Alynna: You are correct. ALL PABs are illegal in Ontario. Only mopeds are legal. THe PAB that is shown is not allowed, and all other PABs are also not allowed. It seems CyclePat managed to convince someone that his bike is a moped, even though it doesn't meet any of the motor-vehicle requirements for limited-speed motorcycles/mopeds whatever and managed to get moped registration. An extreme case. Not "certain types of PABs" are not allowed - but ALL PABs are not allowed - with the exception of CyclePat who seemed to register his.
(this conversation is continued further down in this discussion page)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Motorized_bicycle#Ontario_Moped_Registration)--
CyclePat
19:56, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
There is some discrepencies that seem to occure when Mari edited the sources in this article. I have edited this 2 times already. and it keeps getting changed back. The names of the sources quotes are correct as of a few minutes ago. The Canada Road safety code doesn't exist at the URL that was beeing provide... (Heck I don't even think it exist's at all) if you want to refer to canada... It's called the Motor vehicle safety Act. The Url that was beeing provided is for Quebec.
Same for Ontario's Highway Traffic Act. The name of that law is called "Highway Traffic act" and not "the Ontario highway traffic act."... For God sacks it's written on the top of the source. And often it's written within the law on how it should be titled.
--
CyclePat
16:59, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Is the Highway Traffic Act the only thing by that name? i.e., if I'm in England or Chile or New Zealand, am I going to know that the Highway Traffic Act is something in Ontario? Or is it possible there is another jurisdiction that has also passed a law called the Highway Traffic Act? If the latter, we do need to specify Ontario. -- Alynna 16:59, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Stress is a killer right? All this constant editing feel like a stress load of back stabing. I'm also quite cinical to critical comments and even more to critical changes that happen without very much discusion. Think about it. You know something is wrong in your heart. The government is feeding what might be construed as misleading propaganda. you're trying to convince the world on a fabulous idea/inovation that is being restricted because of the lack of complacency of the Ontario government to changes it laws. (ie.: insurance discrimination article I publish in the Ottawa citizen, the petition I'm organising for the "proper" legalisation of this PAB... so it doesn't have to be considered a Moped (like in Quebec)(and hence wouldn't require plating, insurance, etc..)
Think about, it feels like, almost everyone you talk to doesn't believe you. Then you finally have a place to put down your "research" /summary of laws, and etc... to try and explain the current political situation but it is edited like crazy. To the point where it no longer makes sense. there are errors. And when they finally undestand the truth they don't even believe it themself's. (I have trouble digesting the entire scope of the situation)(ie.: Personal experience with the financial service commission of Ontario, Ombudsmans, lawyers, 2 1/2 years of experience, my personal insurance company, facility insurance, Mpp's, etc... (almost a full time job when you think about it on how to legally operate a PAB on the road.) It's a, no wonder I feel like a need to bold... and I think someone did say be bold in your edits. -- CyclePat 17:50, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
format)(with some autographical mistakes) -- CyclePat 18:32, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
here is a draft copy of my Petition (as of august 29th) -- CyclePat 18:34, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Power-Assisted Bicycle (PAB) Petition WE the undersigned petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:
WHEREAS in 2001 the federal government introduced a new class of vehicle, Power-Assisted bicycle (PAB), which defines an electric-assist bicycle as a distinct vehicle classification, different from a moped or motorcycle;
WHEREAS we request the Ontario's Highway Traffic Act (H.T.A.) recognize this new vehicle classification. The H.T.A. does not currently recognize, nor allow the "per-say" operation of this new class of vehicle;
WHEREAS currently in Ontario a PAB must be registered, plated and insured as a Motor-assisted bicycle (MOPED). Though it is possible to register, plate and insure as a MOPED there are still many unresolved issues and obviously higher costs associated toward it's use.
WHEREAS British Columbia and Quebec have already modified their provincial legislation to reflect the federal definition for electrec-assisted bicycles and hence a PAB may be used on the road without the need for automobile insurance;
WHEREAS we request that the Ontario Government review and amend its current legislation and Insurance Act which results in discrimination against all MOPED owners.
WHEREAS paying for automobile insurance in Ontario to ride a PAB is not an option for most people and as a result, forces them into facility insurance and the failure to properly insure such a vehicle can result in fines ranging from 5000$ to 10000$;
WHEREAS the modern electric bicycle is a realistic alternative to the automobile for commutes of 30km or less and making electric bicycles more accessible in Ontario will encourage people to rely less on their motor vehicles and to use bicycles much more;
THEREFORE modifying the Ontario H.T.A. to allow the operation of electric-assisted bicycle or PAB's will reduce the number of cars on the road and help us meet our Kyota targets.
WHEREAS the city of Ottawa, in April 2005, pasted a legislation to encourage the provincial goverment of Ontario to change the Ontario Highway Traffic Act (H.T.A.) pertaining to use of PAB's;
-- CyclePat 18:34, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
How old are we talking? If it's from the last few months, I can try to find the online version for you. Otherwise, as long as you can document it, you can use it. I mean if we couldn't use offline content, we'd be in a world of hurt considering that most books aren't available online. Wikipedia:Cite_sources/example_style has a listing of how to cite things. -- Woohookitty (cat scratches) 13:00, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
I have 3 small videos of approx. 3 megs. and some pictures of a PAB that legally operable in Ontario as a MOPED. What do we do now? How do we upload? -- CyclePat 10:43, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
It looks like a new anonymous editor has made a number of changes. Does anyone know who this is? Should the changes be reverted? There have been changes to factual information, with no explanation... I'm going to leave hir a note about using edit summaries and talk pages, but could someone with more expertise (CyclePat, i'm looking at you) take a look? -- Alynna 20:41, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
I'll revert the changes, since there was no edit summary given for any of them and it did remove some facts. -- Woohookitty (cat scratches) 01:43, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Okay! I'm going to play the devils advocate here but first Thank you guy for the revert. There where to many changes that destroyed to many facts and made the article quite bias. Never the less, the changes done by the IP dude raises the question: "Should we not be presenting the key facts in essay form?" What I mean by that is, currently we are stating examples in the intro and further on we repeat them. Is that enought of an essay format or is it to much? (ex.: Intro: Juristiction... plating in Ontario, then Quebec, then USA, etc.?)(I'm all for keeping it as is, but maybe IP dude was trying to say we're repeating ourselfs?) Then again, IP dude did remove alot of factual information -- CyclePat 04:22, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Is this original research?
Comment was by IP Dude/Anon - I moved it here b/c it seemed more appropriate in talk. --
Alynna
07:32, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
ipguy: I think the line about case law ("is bicycle a vehicle?") is really misleading and should be removed. I put comment to flag that this appears to be unsubstantiated opinion (that a bike is not a vehicle). It clearly is a vehicle - this isn't even something that is in dispute. I think the line should be removed entirely. It isn't relevant to the subject and offers nothing useful IMHO.
It looks like electric bicycles are essentially regular bicycles but they include a small battery-powered motor that assists in pedaling. Is this correct, CyclePat? The main difference between it and the moped is design. Here is a picture. It's from MSN, so we probably can't use the picture, but it gives Katefan and others some help as to what the difference is. It definitely helped me. :) I will ask you though, Pat. Is it completely necessary to have a separate power-assisted cycles article? I mean according to the definition here, they are essentially the same thing. I don't see a need for 2 articles. Electric bicycles do look different enough from mopeds that I can see a separate article, but another separate article on top of this one? I think that's stretching it a bit. -- Woohookitty (cat scratches) 08:05, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
ipguy: correct - bicycles with a small electric motor other differences with mopeds are performance - most mopeds are allowed at least 50km/h. PABs operate at bicycle speeds - typically up to 20mph, but lower in europe. Check this for a good comparison [2]
The MVSR, (in canada) defines a "power-assisted bicycle" as beeing a diferent vehicle classifaction and specifically indicated that it is not a motorcycle or a moped. So, yes it is necessary to have a complete different section for an "electric bicycle" (such as the article that we are working on) seperate from MOped. The reason I called this article "electric bicycle" is because it seems to encompass the many various jurisdictional definitions that exist. This being said, I would hope that "power-assisted bycle" should be incorpareted within "electric bicycles." (as you might have infered from the discussion section of
power-assisted cycles)--
72.57.8.215
19:32, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I merged info from the power-assisted cycles article and made that article a redirect to this one. I did that because this is all under the same house, so to speak. Power-assisted cycles looks like another name for electric bicycles in which case, we don't need 2 articles. One is enough. Don't worry. I didn't alter any facts...I just merged it into this article. I added the references from that article into this one. -- Woohookitty (cat scratches) 08:26, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
ipguy: The two pages - one for power-assisted cycles, and one for electric bicycle were actually appropriate. This is because an electric bike is one version of an assisted bicycle, but not all power assisted bikes are electric.
Historically any bike with any kind of motor added (gas or electric) was "power-assisted". These bikes were known, early on, as "cyclomotor" or "autocycle" or other by other similar names. They were common in Europe pre-dated the term "moped" - the vehicle they developed into (see moped). Bikes of the second kind (electric) are a class of power-assisted bike. Yes - modern electric bikes are power assisted, but they are not mopeds. Because of this common confusion it would have been appropriate to maintain the page on power-assisted cycles, especially for the European connection. I don't know how to "un-merge" your edits though. By combining the info you have introduced a number of factual errors. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.230.66.98 ( talk • contribs) .
64.230.66.98 15:09, 27 October 2005 (UTC)ipguy OK How do I change an editing comment? I want to replace the word (power) with the word (petrol) that I had intended for the last change.
All you need to do is to click on the page history link. You will see a listing of every version of the article since it was created. You can compare versions, look at old versions, etc, etc. That's why edit summaries are important. Otherwise, it's difficult to track changes. I readded the section on types of electric bicycles for you. -- Woohookitty (cat scratches) 17:05, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Would it be appropriate to merge this article, power-assisted cycles, and power-assisted bicycle? If so, would the name power-assisted cycle or power assisted bicycle be more correct? All the others could remain as redirects to the merged article. -- Alynna 19:11, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
64.230.66.98 01:22, 28 October 2005 (UTC) The first one, power-assisted cycle is appropriate. Most of the stuff on that page deals with European cycle issues, and the definition includes any type of motor including gas. It is reflective of the development history of powered bikes and the history they have in Europe. The term "cycle" is appropriate in this context. Choosing power-assisted cycle also reduces (though does not eliminate) confusion with the term Power Assisted Bicycle (PAB) which is used in Canada to define an electric (only) assisted bike.
So to clarify... does power-assisted cycle cover electric bicycles, PABs, and whatever else we're talking about here? If so, that sounds best. -- Alynna 03:50, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and put suggested merge tags on both this and power-assisted cycle. Question: if we do end up merging both to power-assisted cycle, can we start from the framework we've already got here and merge the information from power-assisted cycle into it, and then move the merged article to there? Because, well, this article is a lot prettier at the moment... -- Alynna 04:28, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I hope noone minds, but I've taken pretty much everything except the intro from power-assisted cycle and copied it somewhere here, because it seemed like it was relavent to this article as well and wouldn't be a problem. Whenever it's okay to actually do the merge, all that needs merging is the intro paragraphs (and adding the two external links immediately below the intro paragraph of power-assisted cycle to the external links section, if that's appropriate). -- Alynna 04:51, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I think merging would be a mistake. Electric bikes are a new, emerging vehicle class. There are millions in use in China, and they are just coming out in North America. It is important to recognize the differences between these, and mopeds, or other bicycles that have over the past century been motorized with all manner of gas motors. There should be a page dedicated solely to electric bikes. The real question should be: Is there a more appropriate title or name for the other page (power-assisted cycles)? Perhaps "motorized bicycles" as a more general class, or something like "early mopeds"? Perhaps rename "cyclomotor" and move the electric parts to this page, and the gas stuff over to the moped page?
It is important to draw the distinction between clean, green, environmentally friendly and silent electric bikes, and stinky, smelly, noisy gas powered contraptions. 64.230.77.128 05:03, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Here's the problem...there just aren't enough differences between the different forms of electric bikes right now to warrant 3 separate articles. There might be at some point (which is why once the articles are merged, redirects are made instead of just deleting the articles), but right now, there just isn't enough, especially since electric bikes are listed as also being called power-assisted bikes/cycles. I don't think mopeds should be in the discussion, btw. From what I see, electric bikes are a different animal. No real comparison. Mopeds are more in the motorcycle class. -- Woohookitty (cat scratches) 05:19, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
64.230.77.128 05:25, 28 October 2005 (UTC)There really are only two major categories of electric bikes - pedelec, and power-on-demand. In many ways these differences in how the motor is activated (pedals vs. throttle) really aren't all that important. Much less important than the point you made that they be distinguished from mopeds and other gas powered bikes. One page for electric bikes is enough. Part of ongoing confusion is that they are known by many names, and some of these names are unfortunately also used for gas powered bikes. Let's get rid of the power-assisted cycle page, or at least re-name it something less ambiguous, like motorized bicycle or something.
I think that's the problem Kate, Alynna and I were having. It's just confusing giving all of these names to what are basically the same. I mean they are all regular looking bikes that have battery powered motors attached to them to help pedaling. The exact specs are different, but the actual bikes seem essentially the same. -- Woohookitty (cat scratches) 05:48, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
64.230.77.128 06:05, 28 October 2005 (UTC)We are almost ready to get rid of the power-assisted cycle page if we want to. Almost all of the content has been moved either to the electric bicycle page, or the moped page. This page could remain as a core for developing the huge area of motorized bicycle that have been built over the past hundred years. (see [3] and [4]. Or we can delete it entirely. ???
I found a picture we can use. Added it to the article. It is from the US Department of Energy's website. Public domain. If we do merge this into power-assisted cycles, the picture can be taken with. -- Woohookitty (cat scratches) 02:15, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Some IP guy changed the intro.... I fixed it... I changed the main intro (still has many typos'). Removed factual errors. An electric bike doesn't necessarily have to have a small electric engine. (what does the sized have to do with things) (perhaps the wattage of the motor, but that depends upon jurisdictional regulations... and if you want your electric bicycle to be conform to various standard. (ie.: canada's motor vehicle safety regulations) there is nothing that says an electric bicycle couldn't meet the definitions of various juristictional definitions of other vehicles such as a motorcycle, moped, an off-road 3 wheeler, a dirt bike. Etc.
That is why I also changed, further down in the article, the various names to which in Ontario an electric bike is. By law it is considered a Moped... (In ontario, we could even twist the law a little more and sugest that it could be a wheelchair? but we won't go there yet... or will we?) All this to say... every juristiction will have it's definition of an electric bicycle. I think we should keep the article on "electric bicycles". Most people when they think of a bicycle with a electric motor think... electric bike... electric bicyle? No? -- CyclePat 21:20, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I contacted the engeneer in charge of the safety regulation. RObert Monster. I have iterated that a PAB is registerable as a MOPEd. Someone keeps changing and mis-interpeting the information provide the MTO web page. I personally own a PAB that is registered as a Moped. The article has been changed and is now bias. Can someone revert the change? -- CyclePat 21:20, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
64.230.77.128 has made some interesting edits. Some are nice. good job on the intro. Thank you. Some are not so nice. My question is? If a PAB can not be registers as a MOPED, anymore, who said so? What are the dates? Can you get a me a copy of the letters? (through access to information?) (what are you're sources - name of the individual or technician from MTO) I have quoted that in my article sources, but that was a while ago. I'll call him back up to make sure. I have double checked my information with MTO via special inquiries unit. Again, what are your sources 64.230.77.128 ??? --
CyclePat
05:11, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
64.230.49.232 05:20, 31 October 2005 (UTC) Why not just call any Ontario registration office and ask them if you can register your electric bicycle as a moped? That would be an easy way to find out if they allow it.
I'm pleased with our progress so far. This is the first dispute I've had in awhile where people are cooperating and I appreciate that very much. -- Woohookitty (cat scratches) 02:48, 29 October 2005 (UTC)