There are several problems with the lead. Firstly, it's too long and provides too much information for a lead section. Hopefully the editing proces will solve this. Second, I'll outline some problems below:
This is actully fine as an opening paragraph and should probably stay.
This is unsourced. It may be appropriate for the lead or could be put into a section of the article.
This section is unsourced and inappropriate for a lead section. If properly sourced it should be included in a sub-section.
This should be in the first paragraph. I believe originally it was until the "Worldview" edits occured.
This paragraph is just unnecessary and contributes to the top heavyness of the lead. It also contains unsourced and factually innacurate information. Motorcycles don't steer by leaning, they steer by countersteering. This has been scientifically proven and is taught by the MSF.
Let's try to tone down the rhetoric and get back to improving the article. A motorcycle/motorbike is the same no matter which country you ride it in. — Malber ( talk • contribs • game) 16:28, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
"motor bike means a motor vehicle with 2 wheels, and includes: (a) a 2-wheeled motor vehicle with a sidecar attached to it that is supported by a third wheel; and (b) a motor vehicle with 3 wheels that is ridden in the same way as a motor vehicle with 2 wheels." So trikes, sidecars/outfits, mopeds and scooters are all motorcycles. However, licencing is a State matter, so in some states any class of licence is permitted for a motorcycle of 50 ml and speed limited to <50k m/h. (Commonly referred to as mopeds). In other states all vehicles defined as motor bikes in the ARR with a power output >200W must be ridden only by persons with a valid motorcycle licence or motorcycle learners licence. All motor vehicles require registration and insurance (Third Party). This is in marked contrast to Europe. For example in the Russian Federation, anyone aged 14 years or older may ride a motorcycle of <50 ml and speed limited to >50 km/h (referred to either as а мокик or мини-роллер) with no requirement for licences, registration or insurance. M-72 08:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I've changed the title of this section back to the standard spelling. This is just silly. See Tire#Etymology. If even the British Times considers "tyre" non-standard, so should we. Anyone advocating an alternate spelling should also start using the word womyn to refer to the female gender. — Malber ( talk • contribs • game) 18:54, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by M-72 ( talk • contribs) 10:58, 6 February 2007 (UTC).
Fowler also notes that the altered spelling tyre originally met with resistance from conservative British institutions such as The Times newspaper.
Can Malber please stick to facts rather than lying to support his viewpoint? Afrikaans is indeed one of the eleven official languages of the Republic of South Africa, as is English. I note that the USA like Australia has NO official language!
Does this mean that US spelling should be deleted because it is not an offical language? M-72 11:38, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Z rather than S is a spelling point gravely in dispute. The spelling seems to be based more on pronunciation. M-72 11:38, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Most English speakers use the British dialect spelling. That includes the Indian sub-continent and the Former Soviet Union. M-72 11:38, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Gregarious Lonewolf commented, "Jeff, I can understand why you're upset, however, just blanking the links to the images you submitted is not the way to approach the issue. Had you discussed your desire to remove those images in the talk page before starting your revert war, I might have been more sympathetic."
Accordingly, I state here that I wish to remove all the images in this article for which I was the images' originator. I wish to remove my images because the article itself is a mess, needs complete reworking, and does not currently merit the inclusion of my images. Moreover, I am tired of the unnecessary and off-topic anti-Americanism expressed on this talk page and would like my images removed until it is completely elminated from the article and the discussions. I have never been anti-British or anti-Australian or anti-South African, and see no reason why anti-Americanism should be tolerated.
I wish also to thank Malber for the sensitive and rational comment he left for me on my personal talk page. -- Jeff Dean, 5 February 2007, 1420 MST. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.142.130.44 ( talk) 21:21, 5 February 2007 (UTC).
3. License Grant. Subject to the terms and conditions of this License, Licensor hereby grants You a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive, perpetual (for the duration of the applicable copyright) license to exercise the rights in the Work as stated below: ...
In the section to which I am obviously referring, it is stated that belts are *frequently* used as a final drive. This is incorrect. They are used *only* on Harley-Davidson cycles and HD-derived choppers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnny Wishbone ( talk • contribs) 00:13, February 6, 2007
The dispute that seems never to end. Which variety of English is this article supposed to be in? Which should it be:
British English?
American English?
Australian English?
South African English?
Canadian English?
Pidgin English?
Universal English?
Can there ever be a consensus?
Oops. Forgot to sign this earlier. Jeff dean 20:51, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi Jeff. You can come back under your username. Your 8hr block for 3rr should be over by now. Voting is evil, but a serious and healthy consensus call on what language style we should use may be a good way to resolve this. Perhaps even including a request for comment on the Wikipedia:WikiProject Motorcycling page. — Malber ( talk • contribs • game) 20:41, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
ABS brakes are available on motorcycles down to the 49cc Geely Strada RX81, which has front only ABS brakes. ABS brakes are also available on the 250cc Honda Reflex motorcycle or motor scooter. There may be more ABS scooters, but I figured getting down to 49cc was enough. The smallest true motorcycle I know of with ABS brakes is the BMW F650. So ... either you can say that ANY size "motorcycle" can be obained with ABS brakes, or you can make a nonredundant distinction between true motorcycles and motor scooters. Jeff dean 23:48, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I've archived about half of this talk page. I tried to select discussions older than 2 months. Basically, everything before "Electric motorcycles or not?" has been archived. Some of the topics did have recent replies, but they were replies to comments made more than two months ago. If you feel that a discussion is still active, please retrieve it from the archive page and re-insert it on this page. — Malber ( talk • contribs • game) 19:10, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the following unsourced statement:
"However, in the Peoples Republic of China, motorcycle use is is being severely restricted by bans and refusals of re-registration."
This unsourced statement seems to be untrue. See "China's Motorcycle Market to Grow Steadily," People's Daily - Business (August 10, 2001) & China Scooter & Motorcycle. -- Evb-wiki 15:11, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Seems like a case of the pot calling the kettle black, unknown user Waratah-9. Is your middle name hypocrisy? To be expected of most editors of this category who demand citations but never provide them. Such is life! M-72 11:30, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Some of the photos in this article have no direct relevance to the adjacent text and are what I would call "vanity" photos. Examples here were inserted in this article.
The other photos, a number of them are mine, have relevance to the adjacent text. I selected and placed my photos to illustrate textual points.
Should we get rid of vanity photos that are not relevant to adjacent text?
Jeff dean
19:01, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
"CVTs are ideally suited to 2-wheeled vehicles because of the lack of shift shock."
Is there a better way to describe this? Neither the Transmission (mechanics) nor the Continuously variable transmission articles mention "shift shock". Is there a source to cite? - AndrewDressel 13:48, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Would anyone object to the removal of this image? It's not really specific to motorcycles as some bikes have two stroke engines. If anyone wants to learn about those types of engines and see the animation they can go to 4 stroke engine. — Malber ( talk • contribs • game) 21:54, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
So I removed the gif. However I think some free close up images of different types of motorcycle engines would be good for this section. We have a boxer engine thanks to Jeff. How about an image of a single cylinder, a V-twin, an inline, etc? I've contributed Image:Rightsideengine.JPG but it's not a very good representation as it's too close (and a bit embarassing, I've got some work to do once the weather warms up!)— M ( talk • contribs) 13:59, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
The subject is Motorcycle, yet anyone reading the page could be easily confused into thinking it was BMW Motorcycles. For the uninitiated out there, BMW has never, apart from the telescopic fork (and even that is under dispute) invented anything in regards to motorcycles. They are a MINOR manufacturer. Please remember that. M-72 07:12, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
No argument from me. The article should be as manufacturer agnostic as possible and specific manufacturers should only be mentioned for something unique and compelling. e.g. BMW introducing ABS qualifies as both, but following it with a list of manufacturers who also offer ABS adds little value. BMW introducing electric windscreens may be unique but is hardly compelling IMHO. -- Cheesy Mike 15:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Jeff, no fault lies with you. I believe that, when Malber said "we have the generous contributions of Jeff Dean to thank," he was being sincere. I agree. We certainly do. Thank you for your contributions. -- Evb-wiki 20:27, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
The "Motorcycle Museum" (?) states that "[p]rior to World War One, Indian was the largest motorcycle manufacturer in the world, producing over 20,000 bikes per year." So That's an Indian!
According to PBS's History Detectives: "By 1920, . . . [Harley-Davidson] had grown into the largest motorcycle manufacturer in the world." Episode 9, 2006: Harley-Davidson Motorcycle, Flemington, New Jersey (2006 Oregon Public Broadcasting).
Of course Harley itself claims: "By 1920, Harley-Davidson was the largest motorcycle manufacturer in the world. Their motorcycles were sold by dealers in 67 countries. Production was 28,189 machines." HARLEY DAVIDSON at History - World War I.
-- Evb-wiki 16:41, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
To answer Jeff Dean's question posed when reverting my edit, ABS is available on a number of bikes below 650cc. Examples from the bikes on offer in the UK at the time of writing include the Yamaha Fazer FZ6 S2 [10], the Honda CBF600 and the Honda CBF500 [11]. I have therefore reworded the article accordingly. -- Cheesy Mike 17:00, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
There are several problems with the lead. Firstly, it's too long and provides too much information for a lead section. Hopefully the editing proces will solve this. Second, I'll outline some problems below:
This is actully fine as an opening paragraph and should probably stay.
This is unsourced. It may be appropriate for the lead or could be put into a section of the article.
This section is unsourced and inappropriate for a lead section. If properly sourced it should be included in a sub-section.
This should be in the first paragraph. I believe originally it was until the "Worldview" edits occured.
This paragraph is just unnecessary and contributes to the top heavyness of the lead. It also contains unsourced and factually innacurate information. Motorcycles don't steer by leaning, they steer by countersteering. This has been scientifically proven and is taught by the MSF.
Let's try to tone down the rhetoric and get back to improving the article. A motorcycle/motorbike is the same no matter which country you ride it in. — Malber ( talk • contribs • game) 16:28, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
"motor bike means a motor vehicle with 2 wheels, and includes: (a) a 2-wheeled motor vehicle with a sidecar attached to it that is supported by a third wheel; and (b) a motor vehicle with 3 wheels that is ridden in the same way as a motor vehicle with 2 wheels." So trikes, sidecars/outfits, mopeds and scooters are all motorcycles. However, licencing is a State matter, so in some states any class of licence is permitted for a motorcycle of 50 ml and speed limited to <50k m/h. (Commonly referred to as mopeds). In other states all vehicles defined as motor bikes in the ARR with a power output >200W must be ridden only by persons with a valid motorcycle licence or motorcycle learners licence. All motor vehicles require registration and insurance (Third Party). This is in marked contrast to Europe. For example in the Russian Federation, anyone aged 14 years or older may ride a motorcycle of <50 ml and speed limited to >50 km/h (referred to either as а мокик or мини-роллер) with no requirement for licences, registration or insurance. M-72 08:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I've changed the title of this section back to the standard spelling. This is just silly. See Tire#Etymology. If even the British Times considers "tyre" non-standard, so should we. Anyone advocating an alternate spelling should also start using the word womyn to refer to the female gender. — Malber ( talk • contribs • game) 18:54, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by M-72 ( talk • contribs) 10:58, 6 February 2007 (UTC).
Fowler also notes that the altered spelling tyre originally met with resistance from conservative British institutions such as The Times newspaper.
Can Malber please stick to facts rather than lying to support his viewpoint? Afrikaans is indeed one of the eleven official languages of the Republic of South Africa, as is English. I note that the USA like Australia has NO official language!
Does this mean that US spelling should be deleted because it is not an offical language? M-72 11:38, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Z rather than S is a spelling point gravely in dispute. The spelling seems to be based more on pronunciation. M-72 11:38, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Most English speakers use the British dialect spelling. That includes the Indian sub-continent and the Former Soviet Union. M-72 11:38, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Gregarious Lonewolf commented, "Jeff, I can understand why you're upset, however, just blanking the links to the images you submitted is not the way to approach the issue. Had you discussed your desire to remove those images in the talk page before starting your revert war, I might have been more sympathetic."
Accordingly, I state here that I wish to remove all the images in this article for which I was the images' originator. I wish to remove my images because the article itself is a mess, needs complete reworking, and does not currently merit the inclusion of my images. Moreover, I am tired of the unnecessary and off-topic anti-Americanism expressed on this talk page and would like my images removed until it is completely elminated from the article and the discussions. I have never been anti-British or anti-Australian or anti-South African, and see no reason why anti-Americanism should be tolerated.
I wish also to thank Malber for the sensitive and rational comment he left for me on my personal talk page. -- Jeff Dean, 5 February 2007, 1420 MST. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.142.130.44 ( talk) 21:21, 5 February 2007 (UTC).
3. License Grant. Subject to the terms and conditions of this License, Licensor hereby grants You a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive, perpetual (for the duration of the applicable copyright) license to exercise the rights in the Work as stated below: ...
In the section to which I am obviously referring, it is stated that belts are *frequently* used as a final drive. This is incorrect. They are used *only* on Harley-Davidson cycles and HD-derived choppers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnny Wishbone ( talk • contribs) 00:13, February 6, 2007
The dispute that seems never to end. Which variety of English is this article supposed to be in? Which should it be:
British English?
American English?
Australian English?
South African English?
Canadian English?
Pidgin English?
Universal English?
Can there ever be a consensus?
Oops. Forgot to sign this earlier. Jeff dean 20:51, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi Jeff. You can come back under your username. Your 8hr block for 3rr should be over by now. Voting is evil, but a serious and healthy consensus call on what language style we should use may be a good way to resolve this. Perhaps even including a request for comment on the Wikipedia:WikiProject Motorcycling page. — Malber ( talk • contribs • game) 20:41, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
ABS brakes are available on motorcycles down to the 49cc Geely Strada RX81, which has front only ABS brakes. ABS brakes are also available on the 250cc Honda Reflex motorcycle or motor scooter. There may be more ABS scooters, but I figured getting down to 49cc was enough. The smallest true motorcycle I know of with ABS brakes is the BMW F650. So ... either you can say that ANY size "motorcycle" can be obained with ABS brakes, or you can make a nonredundant distinction between true motorcycles and motor scooters. Jeff dean 23:48, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I've archived about half of this talk page. I tried to select discussions older than 2 months. Basically, everything before "Electric motorcycles or not?" has been archived. Some of the topics did have recent replies, but they were replies to comments made more than two months ago. If you feel that a discussion is still active, please retrieve it from the archive page and re-insert it on this page. — Malber ( talk • contribs • game) 19:10, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the following unsourced statement:
"However, in the Peoples Republic of China, motorcycle use is is being severely restricted by bans and refusals of re-registration."
This unsourced statement seems to be untrue. See "China's Motorcycle Market to Grow Steadily," People's Daily - Business (August 10, 2001) & China Scooter & Motorcycle. -- Evb-wiki 15:11, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Seems like a case of the pot calling the kettle black, unknown user Waratah-9. Is your middle name hypocrisy? To be expected of most editors of this category who demand citations but never provide them. Such is life! M-72 11:30, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Some of the photos in this article have no direct relevance to the adjacent text and are what I would call "vanity" photos. Examples here were inserted in this article.
The other photos, a number of them are mine, have relevance to the adjacent text. I selected and placed my photos to illustrate textual points.
Should we get rid of vanity photos that are not relevant to adjacent text?
Jeff dean
19:01, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
"CVTs are ideally suited to 2-wheeled vehicles because of the lack of shift shock."
Is there a better way to describe this? Neither the Transmission (mechanics) nor the Continuously variable transmission articles mention "shift shock". Is there a source to cite? - AndrewDressel 13:48, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Would anyone object to the removal of this image? It's not really specific to motorcycles as some bikes have two stroke engines. If anyone wants to learn about those types of engines and see the animation they can go to 4 stroke engine. — Malber ( talk • contribs • game) 21:54, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
So I removed the gif. However I think some free close up images of different types of motorcycle engines would be good for this section. We have a boxer engine thanks to Jeff. How about an image of a single cylinder, a V-twin, an inline, etc? I've contributed Image:Rightsideengine.JPG but it's not a very good representation as it's too close (and a bit embarassing, I've got some work to do once the weather warms up!)— M ( talk • contribs) 13:59, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
The subject is Motorcycle, yet anyone reading the page could be easily confused into thinking it was BMW Motorcycles. For the uninitiated out there, BMW has never, apart from the telescopic fork (and even that is under dispute) invented anything in regards to motorcycles. They are a MINOR manufacturer. Please remember that. M-72 07:12, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
No argument from me. The article should be as manufacturer agnostic as possible and specific manufacturers should only be mentioned for something unique and compelling. e.g. BMW introducing ABS qualifies as both, but following it with a list of manufacturers who also offer ABS adds little value. BMW introducing electric windscreens may be unique but is hardly compelling IMHO. -- Cheesy Mike 15:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Jeff, no fault lies with you. I believe that, when Malber said "we have the generous contributions of Jeff Dean to thank," he was being sincere. I agree. We certainly do. Thank you for your contributions. -- Evb-wiki 20:27, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
The "Motorcycle Museum" (?) states that "[p]rior to World War One, Indian was the largest motorcycle manufacturer in the world, producing over 20,000 bikes per year." So That's an Indian!
According to PBS's History Detectives: "By 1920, . . . [Harley-Davidson] had grown into the largest motorcycle manufacturer in the world." Episode 9, 2006: Harley-Davidson Motorcycle, Flemington, New Jersey (2006 Oregon Public Broadcasting).
Of course Harley itself claims: "By 1920, Harley-Davidson was the largest motorcycle manufacturer in the world. Their motorcycles were sold by dealers in 67 countries. Production was 28,189 machines." HARLEY DAVIDSON at History - World War I.
-- Evb-wiki 16:41, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
To answer Jeff Dean's question posed when reverting my edit, ABS is available on a number of bikes below 650cc. Examples from the bikes on offer in the UK at the time of writing include the Yamaha Fazer FZ6 S2 [10], the Honda CBF600 and the Honda CBF500 [11]. I have therefore reworded the article accordingly. -- Cheesy Mike 17:00, 28 February 2007 (UTC)