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@ Hamamat32 I suggest you to start using the talk page before you risk getting blocked for violating WP:3RR. Clearly, your edits are not improvements since it looks like all you've done was revert to an older version of the page. I have no idea why you would remove the hatnote that clarifies the potential reference of "المغرب" to the Maghreb region (which you did not explain in your edit summary). Furthermore, the official language you changed is recognized as Standard Moroccan Amazigh, not Standard Moroccan Tamazight, and it's commonly referred to as Berber (just as the other official language indicates "Arabic," not "Modern Standard Arabic"). The change you made, which "tweaked the layout," does not make much sense either. There is no need to repetitively include "(Arabic)" and "(Standard Moroccan Tamazight)" after every Arabic and Berber phrase in the motto and national anthem. Take a look at the formatting of the infobox on other country pages, like those for Tunisia and Algeria, to get an idea of how it should appear. Skitash ( talk) 20:55, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
Having the language clarified in parentheses in the motto and national anthem is fine, I don't see much of a reason for removing them." is not in line with the principles of Wikipedia. It is your responsibility to "provide a substantive rationale for the reversion," as outlined in Wikipedia:Don't revert due solely to "no consensus". Skitash ( talk) 22:04, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
Morocco is home to (by an astonishingly wide margin) the largest known phosphate reserves at roughly 50 billion tonnes. The phosphate industry is Morocco's largest foreign exchange earner but gets effectively zero coverage on this article, less than comparatively insignificant sources of revenue.
I think this article could use either a mention or section on how at least 85% of the entire planet's phosphate is located in this very specific part of the world. I feel this is important and unique enough to the geography, economy, and consequently the geopolitics of Morocco to warrant more than a brief mention in the articles Tourism section of all places. 2600:8800:104:D300:C41F:A2D:CAA5:B0FC ( talk) 19:42, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
Really? We need this at the top of the page? Seems patronizing:
Aren't we forgetting these?
By the way, one of those really does mean Morocco; the others don't. Mathglot ( talk) 02:14, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
Hello, may i ask why do we jump from Idrisid dynasty to Alawi dynasty in the history section by omitting more than 600 hundred years of our history? We have to be consistent.. we can't say that the establishment of the moroccan state is in 788 and then we jump directly to the alawi dynasty as if there was nothing after. Those other dynasties are also moroccan dynasties. We need clarification. Thanks. Moorishino ( talk) 15:06, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
I've tried to clean up some edits made by a sockpuppeter, but the country area totals could really use some attention from someone with knowledge of the country. In particular, the "territory" footnote in the infobox needs a citation or two, and the body of the article needs to repeat the detailed info that's in the lead. Ed [talk] [OMT] 20:30, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
I entertained a conversation like this before, but I didn't set forth an awfully thorough argument and it has been archived since. I deem it useless to have an "ethnic groups" parameter in the infobox because:
A solution could be like with the France article, with a Nationality parameter -- per the 2014 (latest) census; this number should be 99.7% Moroccan and 0,25% other. I seek consensus regarding this. NAADAAN ( talk) 18:09, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
"Infobox country does not have a nationality parameter for a reason"doesn't mean anything, that parameter can easily be implemented. The policy of the state under Mohammed VI has been to prioritize a mixed "national identity" above perceived ethnic differences, and ommitting it would be the wiser choice rather than arguing over this endlessly.
"Berber speakers does not equate to ethnic Berbers."Not all rectangles are squares but all (in this case most) squares are rectangles, if this is your qualification then I am curious on what makes an Arab or a Berber in your opinion considering most Berber speakers are native. You forget that some of the
"not necessarily neutral sources"are not only scholarly but peer-reviewed, which would be the best per WP:SOURCETYPES.
"Amazigh activists"but in such a circumstance where there are no official metrics regarding this, this is close to the best we can have -- furthermore, I assume good-faith and wouldn't believe it would serve their interest to exaggerate in scholarly papers (but rather underestimate it). I also doubt that demographics in Morocco significantly shifted from 2000 to now.
"There's a myriad of sources that demonstrate that in the case of Morocco, Berber speakers equate to the amount of Berbers in the country"If you believe this is the case, then wouldn't Berbers constitute 26% of the population, given that 26% of Moroccans are Berber speakers according to the 2014 Moroccan census you provided? Since a reliable census on this already exists, there is no need to rely on estimates. There are individuals who speak Berber but identify as Arabs and vice versa. Therefore, equating Berber speakers to ethnic Berbers is not entirely accurate. I suggest sticking to what reliable ethnic breakdown sources say; that Berbers comprise 30% to 35% of the population.
"Data in Morocco were only collected from Arabic-speaking urban Moroccans"Actually, the source explicitly states that data in Morocco was collected from both urban and rural populations. It also covered all 12 provinces of Morocco, which obviously includes Berber-inhabited areas. Again, Arabic-speaking doesn't mean anything. Many individuals may choose to identify as Berber while exclusively using Arabic as their native language. I don't see why Amazighs wouldn't take part in a "pan-Arab poll", and it is noteworthy that Arab Barometer has been peer-reviewed [23] (best among WP:SOURCETYPES), and it has been described as a non-partisan research network that has been conducting high quality and reliable public opinion surveys in the MENA region. Skitash ( talk) 21:34, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
There are individuals who speak Berber but identify as Arabs. [...] equating Berber speakers to ethnic Berbers is not entirely accurate.El Aissati (2001): "In the case of Amazigh, [...] the most prominent index to ethnicity is linguistic. People define themselves as Imazighen once they speak the Amazigh language." (p. 58, WP:YANARS)
"people define themselves as Imazighen once they speak the Amazigh language"contradicts your sources, as you would be suggesting that only 26% identify as Berber. [24] While determining the exact number of people with Berber ancestry might be challenging, establishing identity (the basis for determining ethnicity) is definitely achievable and is certainly not a gray-zone. The third link to Lameen Souag you provided which claims that that relevant data is "both scarce and hotly contested" accounts for speakers of Berber languages, and this is contradicted by the 2014 Moroccan census (a reliable source) which provides accurate percentages of Berber speakers. I don't see why a government census would not be reliable. If you take another look at the sources I provided, you will observe that they align on comparable percentages and consider all ethnic groups, avoiding exclusive emphasis on either Berbers or Arabs, in contrast to your sources. The absence of ethnicity mention in the 2020 Oxford report does not contradict prior estimates or diminish their validity. We still have older figures and other reliable sources which support similar percentages. Public opinion surveys can be useful in judging ethnic percentages, and if you're concerned with Arab Barometer possibly containing any bias, the Afro Barometer can serve as an alternative (notice how the percentages are strikingly comparable to those of Arab Barometer and other reliable sources). [25] Skitash ( talk) 19:08, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
"You will observe that they align on comparable percentages and consider all ethnic groups, avoiding exclusive emphasis on either Berbers or Arabs, in contrast to your sources."I will rely on other articles as a rule of thumb -- the pages for other countries in the Maghreb (ref. Tunisia, Algeria) use sources focusing on each specific ethnic group rather than comparative sources, must they be removed? As a matter of fact, the page for Egypt has had no ethnic statistics whatsoever since 2011 despite a significant divide between Arabs and Copts.
particularly given that most Wikipedia articles do include ethnic statistics in the infoboxWhy should this article be any different then? You raised WP:OTHERCONTENT, but I must remind you that this policy states that "while comparing with other articles is not, in general, a convincing argument, comparing with articles that have been through some kind of quality review such as Featured article, Good article, or have achieved a WikiProject A class rating, makes a much more credible case" -- considering that another editor had agreed citing other FAs like Canada and Germany and that I raised the cases of other countries in the Maghreb, this point still stands.
What I also don't seem to understand is why you have just decided to delete the Arab and Berber ethnic percentage ranges in the demographics section of the article.I've been planning to expand further on the demographics section of the page to make it more concise with details about the modern effect of Arab Hilalian migration, as I deemed the previous version on the page to be haphazardly written. Of course if these edits keep being reverted then I sadly don't have an awful lot of wiggle room.
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 9 January 2024 and 2 May 2024. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Dawhite5 (
article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Dawhite5 ( talk) 04:35, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Morocco has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Iddir el bourki ( talk) 11:49, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Morocco has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Morocco is one of the safest countries in the world. Iddir el bourki ( talk) 11:42, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
@
R Prazeres: I have no issue with removing the paragraph According to social anthropologist Cristiana Strava, ..
if you believe that it's UNDUE. The only reason I restored is because "Vogelman29" described it as spam and deleted it while falsely claiming that it doesn't exist.
M.Bitton (
talk)
21:33, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
The redirect
Sultanate of Morocco has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 14 § Sultanate of Morocco until a consensus is reached.
asilvering (
talk)
01:00, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
@ NAADAAN: you keep mentioning the constitution, but without citing it. Is there a reason for that? M.Bitton ( talk) 20:43, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
unsourced transcription and transliterationas an explanation. The source that you provided (I haven't checked it) should satisfy the transcription. Adding it will also prevent editors from fiddling with it, as is often the case with unsourced and badly sourced tifinagh words. Since the transliteration has also been challenged, finding a RS for it wouldn't be a bad idea. M.Bitton ( talk) 14:25, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Morocco has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Move "French" to "Foreign languages" in the sidebar.
It makes absolutely no sense to have English and Spanish in foreign languages but not French. It is just as foreign as these two languages and isn't widely spoken by the population. Kurdish Elf ( talk) 05:08, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
Why was Western Sahara removed? Way to offend an entire country... 2A02:908:820:AB00:90A8:2BEC:BC83:B14B ( talk) 04:31, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
In the info box for the HDI, Morocco is ranked as "120rd". Please correct to "120th". Intilyc ( talk) 04:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
@ Hamamat32 I suggest you to start using the talk page before you risk getting blocked for violating WP:3RR. Clearly, your edits are not improvements since it looks like all you've done was revert to an older version of the page. I have no idea why you would remove the hatnote that clarifies the potential reference of "المغرب" to the Maghreb region (which you did not explain in your edit summary). Furthermore, the official language you changed is recognized as Standard Moroccan Amazigh, not Standard Moroccan Tamazight, and it's commonly referred to as Berber (just as the other official language indicates "Arabic," not "Modern Standard Arabic"). The change you made, which "tweaked the layout," does not make much sense either. There is no need to repetitively include "(Arabic)" and "(Standard Moroccan Tamazight)" after every Arabic and Berber phrase in the motto and national anthem. Take a look at the formatting of the infobox on other country pages, like those for Tunisia and Algeria, to get an idea of how it should appear. Skitash ( talk) 20:55, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
Having the language clarified in parentheses in the motto and national anthem is fine, I don't see much of a reason for removing them." is not in line with the principles of Wikipedia. It is your responsibility to "provide a substantive rationale for the reversion," as outlined in Wikipedia:Don't revert due solely to "no consensus". Skitash ( talk) 22:04, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
Morocco is home to (by an astonishingly wide margin) the largest known phosphate reserves at roughly 50 billion tonnes. The phosphate industry is Morocco's largest foreign exchange earner but gets effectively zero coverage on this article, less than comparatively insignificant sources of revenue.
I think this article could use either a mention or section on how at least 85% of the entire planet's phosphate is located in this very specific part of the world. I feel this is important and unique enough to the geography, economy, and consequently the geopolitics of Morocco to warrant more than a brief mention in the articles Tourism section of all places. 2600:8800:104:D300:C41F:A2D:CAA5:B0FC ( talk) 19:42, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
Really? We need this at the top of the page? Seems patronizing:
Aren't we forgetting these?
By the way, one of those really does mean Morocco; the others don't. Mathglot ( talk) 02:14, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
Hello, may i ask why do we jump from Idrisid dynasty to Alawi dynasty in the history section by omitting more than 600 hundred years of our history? We have to be consistent.. we can't say that the establishment of the moroccan state is in 788 and then we jump directly to the alawi dynasty as if there was nothing after. Those other dynasties are also moroccan dynasties. We need clarification. Thanks. Moorishino ( talk) 15:06, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
I've tried to clean up some edits made by a sockpuppeter, but the country area totals could really use some attention from someone with knowledge of the country. In particular, the "territory" footnote in the infobox needs a citation or two, and the body of the article needs to repeat the detailed info that's in the lead. Ed [talk] [OMT] 20:30, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
I entertained a conversation like this before, but I didn't set forth an awfully thorough argument and it has been archived since. I deem it useless to have an "ethnic groups" parameter in the infobox because:
A solution could be like with the France article, with a Nationality parameter -- per the 2014 (latest) census; this number should be 99.7% Moroccan and 0,25% other. I seek consensus regarding this. NAADAAN ( talk) 18:09, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
"Infobox country does not have a nationality parameter for a reason"doesn't mean anything, that parameter can easily be implemented. The policy of the state under Mohammed VI has been to prioritize a mixed "national identity" above perceived ethnic differences, and ommitting it would be the wiser choice rather than arguing over this endlessly.
"Berber speakers does not equate to ethnic Berbers."Not all rectangles are squares but all (in this case most) squares are rectangles, if this is your qualification then I am curious on what makes an Arab or a Berber in your opinion considering most Berber speakers are native. You forget that some of the
"not necessarily neutral sources"are not only scholarly but peer-reviewed, which would be the best per WP:SOURCETYPES.
"Amazigh activists"but in such a circumstance where there are no official metrics regarding this, this is close to the best we can have -- furthermore, I assume good-faith and wouldn't believe it would serve their interest to exaggerate in scholarly papers (but rather underestimate it). I also doubt that demographics in Morocco significantly shifted from 2000 to now.
"There's a myriad of sources that demonstrate that in the case of Morocco, Berber speakers equate to the amount of Berbers in the country"If you believe this is the case, then wouldn't Berbers constitute 26% of the population, given that 26% of Moroccans are Berber speakers according to the 2014 Moroccan census you provided? Since a reliable census on this already exists, there is no need to rely on estimates. There are individuals who speak Berber but identify as Arabs and vice versa. Therefore, equating Berber speakers to ethnic Berbers is not entirely accurate. I suggest sticking to what reliable ethnic breakdown sources say; that Berbers comprise 30% to 35% of the population.
"Data in Morocco were only collected from Arabic-speaking urban Moroccans"Actually, the source explicitly states that data in Morocco was collected from both urban and rural populations. It also covered all 12 provinces of Morocco, which obviously includes Berber-inhabited areas. Again, Arabic-speaking doesn't mean anything. Many individuals may choose to identify as Berber while exclusively using Arabic as their native language. I don't see why Amazighs wouldn't take part in a "pan-Arab poll", and it is noteworthy that Arab Barometer has been peer-reviewed [23] (best among WP:SOURCETYPES), and it has been described as a non-partisan research network that has been conducting high quality and reliable public opinion surveys in the MENA region. Skitash ( talk) 21:34, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
There are individuals who speak Berber but identify as Arabs. [...] equating Berber speakers to ethnic Berbers is not entirely accurate.El Aissati (2001): "In the case of Amazigh, [...] the most prominent index to ethnicity is linguistic. People define themselves as Imazighen once they speak the Amazigh language." (p. 58, WP:YANARS)
"people define themselves as Imazighen once they speak the Amazigh language"contradicts your sources, as you would be suggesting that only 26% identify as Berber. [24] While determining the exact number of people with Berber ancestry might be challenging, establishing identity (the basis for determining ethnicity) is definitely achievable and is certainly not a gray-zone. The third link to Lameen Souag you provided which claims that that relevant data is "both scarce and hotly contested" accounts for speakers of Berber languages, and this is contradicted by the 2014 Moroccan census (a reliable source) which provides accurate percentages of Berber speakers. I don't see why a government census would not be reliable. If you take another look at the sources I provided, you will observe that they align on comparable percentages and consider all ethnic groups, avoiding exclusive emphasis on either Berbers or Arabs, in contrast to your sources. The absence of ethnicity mention in the 2020 Oxford report does not contradict prior estimates or diminish their validity. We still have older figures and other reliable sources which support similar percentages. Public opinion surveys can be useful in judging ethnic percentages, and if you're concerned with Arab Barometer possibly containing any bias, the Afro Barometer can serve as an alternative (notice how the percentages are strikingly comparable to those of Arab Barometer and other reliable sources). [25] Skitash ( talk) 19:08, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
"You will observe that they align on comparable percentages and consider all ethnic groups, avoiding exclusive emphasis on either Berbers or Arabs, in contrast to your sources."I will rely on other articles as a rule of thumb -- the pages for other countries in the Maghreb (ref. Tunisia, Algeria) use sources focusing on each specific ethnic group rather than comparative sources, must they be removed? As a matter of fact, the page for Egypt has had no ethnic statistics whatsoever since 2011 despite a significant divide between Arabs and Copts.
particularly given that most Wikipedia articles do include ethnic statistics in the infoboxWhy should this article be any different then? You raised WP:OTHERCONTENT, but I must remind you that this policy states that "while comparing with other articles is not, in general, a convincing argument, comparing with articles that have been through some kind of quality review such as Featured article, Good article, or have achieved a WikiProject A class rating, makes a much more credible case" -- considering that another editor had agreed citing other FAs like Canada and Germany and that I raised the cases of other countries in the Maghreb, this point still stands.
What I also don't seem to understand is why you have just decided to delete the Arab and Berber ethnic percentage ranges in the demographics section of the article.I've been planning to expand further on the demographics section of the page to make it more concise with details about the modern effect of Arab Hilalian migration, as I deemed the previous version on the page to be haphazardly written. Of course if these edits keep being reverted then I sadly don't have an awful lot of wiggle room.
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 9 January 2024 and 2 May 2024. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Dawhite5 (
article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Dawhite5 ( talk) 04:35, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Morocco has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Iddir el bourki ( talk) 11:49, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Morocco has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Morocco is one of the safest countries in the world. Iddir el bourki ( talk) 11:42, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
@
R Prazeres: I have no issue with removing the paragraph According to social anthropologist Cristiana Strava, ..
if you believe that it's UNDUE. The only reason I restored is because "Vogelman29" described it as spam and deleted it while falsely claiming that it doesn't exist.
M.Bitton (
talk)
21:33, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
The redirect
Sultanate of Morocco has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 14 § Sultanate of Morocco until a consensus is reached.
asilvering (
talk)
01:00, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
@ NAADAAN: you keep mentioning the constitution, but without citing it. Is there a reason for that? M.Bitton ( talk) 20:43, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
unsourced transcription and transliterationas an explanation. The source that you provided (I haven't checked it) should satisfy the transcription. Adding it will also prevent editors from fiddling with it, as is often the case with unsourced and badly sourced tifinagh words. Since the transliteration has also been challenged, finding a RS for it wouldn't be a bad idea. M.Bitton ( talk) 14:25, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Morocco has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Move "French" to "Foreign languages" in the sidebar.
It makes absolutely no sense to have English and Spanish in foreign languages but not French. It is just as foreign as these two languages and isn't widely spoken by the population. Kurdish Elf ( talk) 05:08, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
Why was Western Sahara removed? Way to offend an entire country... 2A02:908:820:AB00:90A8:2BEC:BC83:B14B ( talk) 04:31, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
In the info box for the HDI, Morocco is ranked as "120rd". Please correct to "120th". Intilyc ( talk) 04:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)