A fact from Moro Rebellion appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 16 April 2004. The text of the entry was as follows:
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Bangsamoro appears to be a Neologism. I am not finding any books older than the last 35 years that use the term/name.
Even this self published book only dates to 1985:
This event ended in 1913. While it may have some context for background sections in other articles, or mentioned in an aftermath section in this article. Writing about the conflict itself or background to the conflict which is the subject of this article, should not use the term Bangsamoro IMHO. In a way it is attempting to reframe history and interject a non- neutral POV.-- RightCowLeftCoast ( talk) 23:27, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
In addition, the word "sacopy" may occur as a single source 'hapax legomena' in the 1973 book by Donald Smythe "Guerrilla Warrior: The Early Life of John J. Pershing" I'm finding it hard to tease any other sources out of search engines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CE80:2AA0:F521:2851:5576:37A9 ( talk) 01:03, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
The quote says that pershing himself said "it was not pleasant to have to take such measures", who whence is there a doubt that he was directly involved? Since it happened systematically with his command and never denied but rather admitted it without regrets...
The "sources" for suppossed "historians" are anti-trump media hit pieces from 2018, not academic publications or reviews. I get wanting to attack trump but this is a discussion about colonial history not 2018 electoral politics. 186.139.111.142 ( talk) 10:53, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
@
Beyond My Ken: I saw you have expanded the sentence US soldiers buried pigs with the bodies of juramentados according to American soldier J. R. McKey.
added by
Yaujj13 to a separate section "Controversy" according to references provided by him. But I think these sentence and references should have been merged with the section "Tactics" existed before. Please consider this suggestion.
NmWTfs85lXusaybq (
talk)
17:45, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
The former "Controversy" section has been merged into the existing "Tactics" section, but NmWTfs85lXusaybq continues to believe that it is unbalanced. He added a "weight" tag to the section, but I removed it, as this discussion is already ongoing to determine whether there is a WP:UNDUE problem with the additional material, which NmWTfs85lXusaybq has been attempting to remove since it was first added. (NmWTfs85lXusaybq subsequently restored the tag.) I do not believe that there is a weight problem:
This seems to me to be a situation which an editor with a clear POV (whatever that is) cannot abide anything negative about a subject that's important to them, and is willing to enter into
WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior in order to achieve their goals. I believe that an objective observer would say that the sourced information should stay in the article, and NmWTfs85lXusaybq's tag -- representing their personal opinion and not, at this point, consensus -- should be removed.
Beyond My Ken (
talk)
04:59, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
US soldiers buried pigs with the bodies of juramentados according to American soldier J. R. McKeyadded by Yaujj13 to a detailed material of this controversy. It's fine for me to keep these materials as a separate section. That's what I did in Special:Diff/1149971699, reverted by Beyond My Ken later.
It's fine for me to keep these materials as a separate section. That's what I did in Special:Diff/1149971699, reverted by Beyond My Ken later.It's fine for me if Beyond My Ken's material was put out of "Conflict" section. But if he insists on putting his material under "Conflict" section, it's better to merge it with "Tactics" section. Besides that, his material needs a rewrite to maintain the due structure of "Tactics" section. NmWTfs85lXusaybq ( talk) 08:42, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
hadn't noticed there was such a section. It seems that he doesn't care about the structure of this article. NmWTfs85lXusaybq ( talk) 08:57, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
He added a "weight" tag to the section, but I removed itand
why their position has changed 180 degrees, and why he is as adamant about this new position as they were about their original one.
US soldiers buried pigs with the bodies of juramentados according to American soldier J. R. McKey. The name "McKey" is mentioned only in one of the sources. This material is duplicate with
Letters and memoirs from soldiers describing events similar to this do not have credible evidence of Pershing's having been personally involvedfrom section "Tactics". Only the sources should be left and merged into "Tactics" section.
Note: Beyond My Ken's material is partly duplicate with the original material in the "Tactics" section. That's why his material is overly detailed about tactics and needs a rewrite.
American soldier J. R. McKey claimed in 1941 that U.S. soldiers during Pershing's governorship buried bleeding pigs with the bodies of juramentados in public funerals, because of the Muslim disgust for swine, but McKey did not claim that Pershing was aware of these actions.can be fully summarized by original material
Letters and memoirs from soldiers describing events similar to this do not have credible evidence of Pershing's having been personally involved.
U.S. soldiers during Pershing's governorship buried bleeding pigs with the bodies of juramentados in public funeralsis duplicate with
The bodies were publicly buried in the same grave with a dead pig
because of the Muslim disgust for swineis duplicate with
the prospect of going to hell instead of heaven sometimes deterred the would-be assassins
McKey did not claim that Pershing was aware of these actionsis duplicate with
Letters and memoirs from soldiers describing events similar to this do not have credible evidence of Pershing's having been personally involved
However, there is no evidence for the claim made by Donald Trump in 2016 that Pershing executed Muslim insurgents with bullets dipped in pig's blood.is only a conspiracy theory mentioned by Donald Trump and provides no further information about tactics which has been used. It should be included in quotes instead of materials.
Suggestion: The material of "Tactics" should be modified as follows:
|
|
NmWTfs85lXusaybq ( talk) 10:13, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
References
I continue to believe that the material is not in any way undue, and suggest that it would be best if the section were organized more or less chronologically, in this manner:
Tactics
In 1927, some 14 years after Pershing's governership, the Chicago Tribune published a claim that U.S. soldiers during Pershing's term of office buried bleeding pigs with the bodies of juramentados in public funerals, because of the Muslim disgust for swine. This claim was repeated in 1941 in a letter to Time magazine by J. R. McKey an American soldier. [1]
Pershing dealt with this incident in his memoir My Life Before the World War, 1860–1917, which he worked on between 1924 and 1937, but which was not published until 2013. [2] In it, he wrote:
[The] juramentado attacks were materially reduced in number by a practice the army had already adopted, one that the Mohammadans held in abhorrence. The bodies were publicly buried in the same grave with a dead pig. It was not pleasant to have to take such measures but the prospect of going to hell instead of heaven sometimes deterred the would-be assassins. [3]
Though this treatment was inflicted on captured juramentado, historians do not believe that Pershing was directly involved with such incidents, or that he personally gave such orders to his subordinates. Letters and memoirs from soldiers describing events similar to this do not have credible evidence of Pershing's having been personally involved. [4] [5] However, Christopher Capozzola, a history professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, reported that Pershing supposedly brought a pig’s head to a ceasefire negotiation with a Muslim leader. [1] In 2016, then-President Donald Trump made the claim that Pershing executed Muslim insurgents with bullets dipped in pig's blood, but historians find no evidence for this. [1]
References
- ^ a b c Berenson, Tessa (February 24, 2016). "The Real Story Behind Donald Trump's Pig's Blood Slander". Time.
{{ cite news}}
: CS1 maint: extra punctuation ( link)- ^ Greenwood, John T., editor (2013) "Introduction" to Pershing, John My Life Before the World War, 1860–1917: A Memoir, pp.1-10. Lexington, Kentucky: University Press of Kentucky. ISBN 9780813141978
- ^ Pershing, John (2013) My Life Before the World War, 1860–1917: A Memoir, pp. 284–285 Lexington, Kentucky: University Press of Kentucky. ISBN 9780813141978
- ^ Horton, Alex (August 18, 2017) "Trump said to study General Pershing. Here’s what the president got wrong" The Washington Post
- ^ Qiu, Linda (August 18, 2017) "Study Pershing, Trump Said. But the Story Doesn’t Add Up" The New York Times
I believe this is a clean, efficient way to deal with the sources and their information in a manner which is not undue or overly long. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 20:05, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any source. Do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. BMK has no evidence if Pershing's memoir is meant to deal with the claim published on Chicago Tribune, according to his sources. Similarly, BMK doesn't know if Chicago Tribune is really the origin of the claim.
Letters and memoirs from soldiers describing events similar to this do not have credible evidence of Pershing's having been personally involvedin the 3rd part of his proposal. However, it's not a scholarly response to the original claim, but a summary of the original claim, which should have been put in the 1st part of his proposal.
Pershing enacted the following reforms during his tenure as governor.
NmWTfs85lXusaybq, I find all this very hard to follow (and please leave out the personal attacks on BMK). I think I'm fine with your "Tactics: after"--but where has Trump gone? User:Beyond My Ken, what do you think? Drmies ( talk) 00:09, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
A conspiracy theory is worth mentioning if secondary sources make it so, and that's what happened here. That's why I include only this conspiracy theory in this section "Tactics".
The following discussion took place on User talk:Drmies#Moro Rebellion. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 03:11, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
End of copied discussion
@
Drmies: I have formatted this discussion by subsections which could help you follow it. I notice you mentioned Putting that under "popular culture" is not the most elegant way of handling it; I'm sure a better solution can be found
. I think the conspiracy theory about Pershing could be put into
List of conspiracy theories promoted by Donald Trump as well. What do you think?
NmWTfs85lXusaybq (
talk)
04:51, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
Comment: At this time, I will fully accept Drmies's advice of keeping Trump related material to make the suggested trimming a current consensus. Any further discussion could be made to form a new consensus. NmWTfs85lXusaybq ( talk) 08:49, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
That refers to Battle of Manila (1899). Of course Manila is not in Moroland. Based on this article, the "rebellion" began on March 9, 1902. I don't think the Moros were taking orders from Aguinaldo who was captured a year before, or even from Miguel Malvar, who surrendered a month later on April 16, 1902. First Philippine Republic forces in Mindanao surrendered on March 27, 1901, well before the Moros rebelled. I suppose this should be treated differently from the Philippine–American War which has a well defined start date of February 4, 1899, and ended at various times, all centered on events in involving non-Moros outside Mindanao. Howard the Duck ( talk) 01:09, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
A fact from Moro Rebellion appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 16 April 2004. The text of the entry was as follows:
|
Archives: 1 |
|
It is requested that a map or maps be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Wikipedians in the Philippines may be able to help! |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Bangsamoro appears to be a Neologism. I am not finding any books older than the last 35 years that use the term/name.
Even this self published book only dates to 1985:
This event ended in 1913. While it may have some context for background sections in other articles, or mentioned in an aftermath section in this article. Writing about the conflict itself or background to the conflict which is the subject of this article, should not use the term Bangsamoro IMHO. In a way it is attempting to reframe history and interject a non- neutral POV.-- RightCowLeftCoast ( talk) 23:27, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
In addition, the word "sacopy" may occur as a single source 'hapax legomena' in the 1973 book by Donald Smythe "Guerrilla Warrior: The Early Life of John J. Pershing" I'm finding it hard to tease any other sources out of search engines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CE80:2AA0:F521:2851:5576:37A9 ( talk) 01:03, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
The quote says that pershing himself said "it was not pleasant to have to take such measures", who whence is there a doubt that he was directly involved? Since it happened systematically with his command and never denied but rather admitted it without regrets...
The "sources" for suppossed "historians" are anti-trump media hit pieces from 2018, not academic publications or reviews. I get wanting to attack trump but this is a discussion about colonial history not 2018 electoral politics. 186.139.111.142 ( talk) 10:53, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
@
Beyond My Ken: I saw you have expanded the sentence US soldiers buried pigs with the bodies of juramentados according to American soldier J. R. McKey.
added by
Yaujj13 to a separate section "Controversy" according to references provided by him. But I think these sentence and references should have been merged with the section "Tactics" existed before. Please consider this suggestion.
NmWTfs85lXusaybq (
talk)
17:45, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
The former "Controversy" section has been merged into the existing "Tactics" section, but NmWTfs85lXusaybq continues to believe that it is unbalanced. He added a "weight" tag to the section, but I removed it, as this discussion is already ongoing to determine whether there is a WP:UNDUE problem with the additional material, which NmWTfs85lXusaybq has been attempting to remove since it was first added. (NmWTfs85lXusaybq subsequently restored the tag.) I do not believe that there is a weight problem:
This seems to me to be a situation which an editor with a clear POV (whatever that is) cannot abide anything negative about a subject that's important to them, and is willing to enter into
WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior in order to achieve their goals. I believe that an objective observer would say that the sourced information should stay in the article, and NmWTfs85lXusaybq's tag -- representing their personal opinion and not, at this point, consensus -- should be removed.
Beyond My Ken (
talk)
04:59, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
US soldiers buried pigs with the bodies of juramentados according to American soldier J. R. McKeyadded by Yaujj13 to a detailed material of this controversy. It's fine for me to keep these materials as a separate section. That's what I did in Special:Diff/1149971699, reverted by Beyond My Ken later.
It's fine for me to keep these materials as a separate section. That's what I did in Special:Diff/1149971699, reverted by Beyond My Ken later.It's fine for me if Beyond My Ken's material was put out of "Conflict" section. But if he insists on putting his material under "Conflict" section, it's better to merge it with "Tactics" section. Besides that, his material needs a rewrite to maintain the due structure of "Tactics" section. NmWTfs85lXusaybq ( talk) 08:42, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
hadn't noticed there was such a section. It seems that he doesn't care about the structure of this article. NmWTfs85lXusaybq ( talk) 08:57, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
He added a "weight" tag to the section, but I removed itand
why their position has changed 180 degrees, and why he is as adamant about this new position as they were about their original one.
US soldiers buried pigs with the bodies of juramentados according to American soldier J. R. McKey. The name "McKey" is mentioned only in one of the sources. This material is duplicate with
Letters and memoirs from soldiers describing events similar to this do not have credible evidence of Pershing's having been personally involvedfrom section "Tactics". Only the sources should be left and merged into "Tactics" section.
Note: Beyond My Ken's material is partly duplicate with the original material in the "Tactics" section. That's why his material is overly detailed about tactics and needs a rewrite.
American soldier J. R. McKey claimed in 1941 that U.S. soldiers during Pershing's governorship buried bleeding pigs with the bodies of juramentados in public funerals, because of the Muslim disgust for swine, but McKey did not claim that Pershing was aware of these actions.can be fully summarized by original material
Letters and memoirs from soldiers describing events similar to this do not have credible evidence of Pershing's having been personally involved.
U.S. soldiers during Pershing's governorship buried bleeding pigs with the bodies of juramentados in public funeralsis duplicate with
The bodies were publicly buried in the same grave with a dead pig
because of the Muslim disgust for swineis duplicate with
the prospect of going to hell instead of heaven sometimes deterred the would-be assassins
McKey did not claim that Pershing was aware of these actionsis duplicate with
Letters and memoirs from soldiers describing events similar to this do not have credible evidence of Pershing's having been personally involved
However, there is no evidence for the claim made by Donald Trump in 2016 that Pershing executed Muslim insurgents with bullets dipped in pig's blood.is only a conspiracy theory mentioned by Donald Trump and provides no further information about tactics which has been used. It should be included in quotes instead of materials.
Suggestion: The material of "Tactics" should be modified as follows:
|
|
NmWTfs85lXusaybq ( talk) 10:13, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
References
I continue to believe that the material is not in any way undue, and suggest that it would be best if the section were organized more or less chronologically, in this manner:
Tactics
In 1927, some 14 years after Pershing's governership, the Chicago Tribune published a claim that U.S. soldiers during Pershing's term of office buried bleeding pigs with the bodies of juramentados in public funerals, because of the Muslim disgust for swine. This claim was repeated in 1941 in a letter to Time magazine by J. R. McKey an American soldier. [1]
Pershing dealt with this incident in his memoir My Life Before the World War, 1860–1917, which he worked on between 1924 and 1937, but which was not published until 2013. [2] In it, he wrote:
[The] juramentado attacks were materially reduced in number by a practice the army had already adopted, one that the Mohammadans held in abhorrence. The bodies were publicly buried in the same grave with a dead pig. It was not pleasant to have to take such measures but the prospect of going to hell instead of heaven sometimes deterred the would-be assassins. [3]
Though this treatment was inflicted on captured juramentado, historians do not believe that Pershing was directly involved with such incidents, or that he personally gave such orders to his subordinates. Letters and memoirs from soldiers describing events similar to this do not have credible evidence of Pershing's having been personally involved. [4] [5] However, Christopher Capozzola, a history professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, reported that Pershing supposedly brought a pig’s head to a ceasefire negotiation with a Muslim leader. [1] In 2016, then-President Donald Trump made the claim that Pershing executed Muslim insurgents with bullets dipped in pig's blood, but historians find no evidence for this. [1]
References
- ^ a b c Berenson, Tessa (February 24, 2016). "The Real Story Behind Donald Trump's Pig's Blood Slander". Time.
{{ cite news}}
: CS1 maint: extra punctuation ( link)- ^ Greenwood, John T., editor (2013) "Introduction" to Pershing, John My Life Before the World War, 1860–1917: A Memoir, pp.1-10. Lexington, Kentucky: University Press of Kentucky. ISBN 9780813141978
- ^ Pershing, John (2013) My Life Before the World War, 1860–1917: A Memoir, pp. 284–285 Lexington, Kentucky: University Press of Kentucky. ISBN 9780813141978
- ^ Horton, Alex (August 18, 2017) "Trump said to study General Pershing. Here’s what the president got wrong" The Washington Post
- ^ Qiu, Linda (August 18, 2017) "Study Pershing, Trump Said. But the Story Doesn’t Add Up" The New York Times
I believe this is a clean, efficient way to deal with the sources and their information in a manner which is not undue or overly long. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 20:05, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any source. Do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. BMK has no evidence if Pershing's memoir is meant to deal with the claim published on Chicago Tribune, according to his sources. Similarly, BMK doesn't know if Chicago Tribune is really the origin of the claim.
Letters and memoirs from soldiers describing events similar to this do not have credible evidence of Pershing's having been personally involvedin the 3rd part of his proposal. However, it's not a scholarly response to the original claim, but a summary of the original claim, which should have been put in the 1st part of his proposal.
Pershing enacted the following reforms during his tenure as governor.
NmWTfs85lXusaybq, I find all this very hard to follow (and please leave out the personal attacks on BMK). I think I'm fine with your "Tactics: after"--but where has Trump gone? User:Beyond My Ken, what do you think? Drmies ( talk) 00:09, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
A conspiracy theory is worth mentioning if secondary sources make it so, and that's what happened here. That's why I include only this conspiracy theory in this section "Tactics".
The following discussion took place on User talk:Drmies#Moro Rebellion. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 03:11, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
End of copied discussion
@
Drmies: I have formatted this discussion by subsections which could help you follow it. I notice you mentioned Putting that under "popular culture" is not the most elegant way of handling it; I'm sure a better solution can be found
. I think the conspiracy theory about Pershing could be put into
List of conspiracy theories promoted by Donald Trump as well. What do you think?
NmWTfs85lXusaybq (
talk)
04:51, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
Comment: At this time, I will fully accept Drmies's advice of keeping Trump related material to make the suggested trimming a current consensus. Any further discussion could be made to form a new consensus. NmWTfs85lXusaybq ( talk) 08:49, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
That refers to Battle of Manila (1899). Of course Manila is not in Moroland. Based on this article, the "rebellion" began on March 9, 1902. I don't think the Moros were taking orders from Aguinaldo who was captured a year before, or even from Miguel Malvar, who surrendered a month later on April 16, 1902. First Philippine Republic forces in Mindanao surrendered on March 27, 1901, well before the Moros rebelled. I suppose this should be treated differently from the Philippine–American War which has a well defined start date of February 4, 1899, and ended at various times, all centered on events in involving non-Moros outside Mindanao. Howard the Duck ( talk) 01:09, 24 March 2024 (UTC)