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RODavis0 ( talk) 03:55, 5 February 2020 (UTC)[NPV] The very title of this article asserts that Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are not Christians, as it sets up a contrast between the theology taught by that church (you refer to it as Mormonism) and all Christianity. You then base that difference on the fact that the church does not accept Nicene Christianity (clearly a specific form of Christianity or you would not specifically identify it as "Nicene"). This displays a non-neutral point of view that to be a Christian one must adhere to a very specific doctrinal interpretation of the scriptures contained in an extra-Biblical document. The article also falsely states that the church does not believe in Bible inerrancy. The church clearly accepts this principle as defined on the Wikipedia page for Bible inerrancy. The church actually takes the official position that "Scripture in the original manuscripts does not affirm anything that is contrary to fact." The problem is that no original manuscripts exist, but your interpretation of what scripture says is not the arbiter of what constitutes a Christian; this is not a neutral point of view. The adoption of scriptures that you do not accept as the Word of God does not disqualify members of the church from being Christians. Some Christians accept the Apocrypha as scriptures, are you saying these people are not Christian or does that just apply to the scriptures accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? This is not a neutral point of view. Different Christian denominations do have different rituals. Are Catholics not Christians because they "cross themselves" or Methodists not Christians because they do not "cross themselves?" What about the use of rosary beads? Priestly vestments? Shakers or Holy Rollers worship rituals? Are you arbitrarily setting yourself up as the arbiter of what constitutes valid and invalid Christian rituals? Again, this is not a neutral point of view.
- I agree with the above user. Christianity is defined as simply a belief and a following of Jesus Christ; even to just accept Him as Lord and Savior. I can only affirm what the user above has stated, as there are no other points I have to add. Webcoolz ( talk) 08:08, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
I'm weighing in here with my two cents. "Mormonism" refers to those sets of beliefs universally espoused and accepted by all religious entities who trace their origins back to Joseph Smith. While The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the largest of those denominations, this article does (or should) cover all whose organizations trace their origins directly back to the core beliefs of Mormonism as found in the movement established by Smith. So confining the renaming of this article to willfully and deliberately exclude the other sects mentioned, who, by definition, ascribe to the core beliefs or Mormonism, would, by that measure, be more than slightly disingenuous. Rename the section referring particularly to the COJCOLDS, by all means, but to rename the entire article for that church when other branches of Mormonism are discussed herein is not a good idea, IMHO. -- Jgstokes ( talk) 21:36, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
Comparison of Mormonism to non-Latter Day Saint Christian denominationsbut WP:NPOV calls for bias in the title to balance against clarity. Mormonism and Nicene Christianity strikes this balance and meets Wikipedia requirements. Jared.h.wood ( talk) 22:04, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
Two IP editors have recently performed major edits to this article, apparently with a view to making the text clearly partial to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. These edits are, I believe, in violation of the relevant Manual of Style page ( MOS:LDS) — or possibly done in ignorance of the said MoS page (since these IP editors may be new to Wikipedia and unaware of the way things are done here). Since active discussion has been underway on the talk page ( Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Latter Day Saints) for some time — with no suggestion, btw, of any consensus emerging anytime soon — between editors who support the current MoS recommendations and other editors who insist the current recommendations are insulting to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and need to be changed ASAP, I don't think it's appropriate for people to be unilaterally changing the language in Mormonism and Nicene Christianity in the absence of a consensus to change the MoS page. I am inclined to impose pending-changes protection on the article, so that changes by IP editors must be accepted by an admin or other person with the "pending changes reviewer" right before they become generally visible; however, since I have been heavily involved in the MoS talk-page discussion on this matter, I would prefer if someone else do this (assuming, of course, that others agree with the idea of pending-change protection in the first place). Comments? — Rich wales (no relation to Jimbo) 04:48, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
@ Good Olfactory: Here you moved the reference from inside the parentheses to outside it. I think parentheses are treated slightly differently than other punctuation in this case. My reasoning for putting it inside was that the reference applied only to material within the parentheses, therefore the ref tags should belong just before the closing parenthesis based on my reading of MOS:REFPUNCT. Thoughts? -- FyzixFighter ( talk) 13:01, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
Nobody except Mormons use the term “nicene Christianity”. This change is not even able to maintain its naming scheme consistently through the article. There is also no “nicene Christianity” page to link to, as the term is only being used on this page to create confusion about what should be titled “differences between Mormons and Christians”. 71.223.156.177 ( talk) 14:28, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Mormonism and Nicene Christianity article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
Index,
1,
2,
3,
4,
5,
6,
7,
8,
9,
10,
11,
12,
13,
14,
15,
16,
17,
18,
19,
20,
21,
22,
23Auto-archiving period: 180 days
![]() |
![]() | The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
![]() | This page is not a forum for general discussion about personal beliefs, apologetics, or polemics. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about personal beliefs, apologetics, or polemics at the Reference desk. |
![]() | Mormonism and Nicene Christianity is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive. | ||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Former featured article candidate |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
Discussions:
|
RODavis0 ( talk) 03:55, 5 February 2020 (UTC)[NPV] The very title of this article asserts that Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are not Christians, as it sets up a contrast between the theology taught by that church (you refer to it as Mormonism) and all Christianity. You then base that difference on the fact that the church does not accept Nicene Christianity (clearly a specific form of Christianity or you would not specifically identify it as "Nicene"). This displays a non-neutral point of view that to be a Christian one must adhere to a very specific doctrinal interpretation of the scriptures contained in an extra-Biblical document. The article also falsely states that the church does not believe in Bible inerrancy. The church clearly accepts this principle as defined on the Wikipedia page for Bible inerrancy. The church actually takes the official position that "Scripture in the original manuscripts does not affirm anything that is contrary to fact." The problem is that no original manuscripts exist, but your interpretation of what scripture says is not the arbiter of what constitutes a Christian; this is not a neutral point of view. The adoption of scriptures that you do not accept as the Word of God does not disqualify members of the church from being Christians. Some Christians accept the Apocrypha as scriptures, are you saying these people are not Christian or does that just apply to the scriptures accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? This is not a neutral point of view. Different Christian denominations do have different rituals. Are Catholics not Christians because they "cross themselves" or Methodists not Christians because they do not "cross themselves?" What about the use of rosary beads? Priestly vestments? Shakers or Holy Rollers worship rituals? Are you arbitrarily setting yourself up as the arbiter of what constitutes valid and invalid Christian rituals? Again, this is not a neutral point of view.
- I agree with the above user. Christianity is defined as simply a belief and a following of Jesus Christ; even to just accept Him as Lord and Savior. I can only affirm what the user above has stated, as there are no other points I have to add. Webcoolz ( talk) 08:08, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
I'm weighing in here with my two cents. "Mormonism" refers to those sets of beliefs universally espoused and accepted by all religious entities who trace their origins back to Joseph Smith. While The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the largest of those denominations, this article does (or should) cover all whose organizations trace their origins directly back to the core beliefs of Mormonism as found in the movement established by Smith. So confining the renaming of this article to willfully and deliberately exclude the other sects mentioned, who, by definition, ascribe to the core beliefs or Mormonism, would, by that measure, be more than slightly disingenuous. Rename the section referring particularly to the COJCOLDS, by all means, but to rename the entire article for that church when other branches of Mormonism are discussed herein is not a good idea, IMHO. -- Jgstokes ( talk) 21:36, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
Comparison of Mormonism to non-Latter Day Saint Christian denominationsbut WP:NPOV calls for bias in the title to balance against clarity. Mormonism and Nicene Christianity strikes this balance and meets Wikipedia requirements. Jared.h.wood ( talk) 22:04, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
Two IP editors have recently performed major edits to this article, apparently with a view to making the text clearly partial to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. These edits are, I believe, in violation of the relevant Manual of Style page ( MOS:LDS) — or possibly done in ignorance of the said MoS page (since these IP editors may be new to Wikipedia and unaware of the way things are done here). Since active discussion has been underway on the talk page ( Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Latter Day Saints) for some time — with no suggestion, btw, of any consensus emerging anytime soon — between editors who support the current MoS recommendations and other editors who insist the current recommendations are insulting to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and need to be changed ASAP, I don't think it's appropriate for people to be unilaterally changing the language in Mormonism and Nicene Christianity in the absence of a consensus to change the MoS page. I am inclined to impose pending-changes protection on the article, so that changes by IP editors must be accepted by an admin or other person with the "pending changes reviewer" right before they become generally visible; however, since I have been heavily involved in the MoS talk-page discussion on this matter, I would prefer if someone else do this (assuming, of course, that others agree with the idea of pending-change protection in the first place). Comments? — Rich wales (no relation to Jimbo) 04:48, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
@ Good Olfactory: Here you moved the reference from inside the parentheses to outside it. I think parentheses are treated slightly differently than other punctuation in this case. My reasoning for putting it inside was that the reference applied only to material within the parentheses, therefore the ref tags should belong just before the closing parenthesis based on my reading of MOS:REFPUNCT. Thoughts? -- FyzixFighter ( talk) 13:01, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
Nobody except Mormons use the term “nicene Christianity”. This change is not even able to maintain its naming scheme consistently through the article. There is also no “nicene Christianity” page to link to, as the term is only being used on this page to create confusion about what should be titled “differences between Mormons and Christians”. 71.223.156.177 ( talk) 14:28, 5 June 2023 (UTC)