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Claims that the Moriori were 'wiped out' by Maori are untrue.
Perhaps you meant full blooded ANGLES? Gringo300 08:42, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
From what I know, the Chatham didn't support many people (with the technology available to the Moriori). Could you estimate how many Moriori lived there? Even roughly: hundreds? thousands?
I've put this in the
Category:Maori, but it seems wrong there. Any suggestions? [[User:Grutness|
Grutness
talk
]] 09:48, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I'm somewhat confused by what the article says. On the one hand it states that "ancestral Moriori migrated as Māori from ... New Zealand about 1500 AD". On the other hand it states that it is an "unsubstantiated myth that the 'Moriori' ... originally inhabited New Zealand before the fairer-skinned Māori arrived".
Although I acknowledge that the two statements do not necessarily contradict each other, they still leave me somewhat confused as to the origin of the Moriori.
I believe that a clarification is required. What is myth and what is assumed to be correct? -- Oz1cz 09:29, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Why call it a "debunked" myth? Also, please source the scholars who now agree about the origin of the Moriori, and whether these scholars opinions are the majority or not.
How does Michael Kings one book change the myth to debunked and then shift the burden of proof on to the other side? Michael Kings book is based on as much fact as you get by going to Auckland Museum (near nil) and the rest is hearsay and conjecture. 60.234.238.153 10:52, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree -- Michael Kings book should in no way be taken as definitive. He gives very little historical evidence and bases his claim on fickle etymology in the similarities between the Moriori language and the Maori dialect of certain South Island tribes. No definitive archeological evidence backs up his claim, neither does any genetic (mtDNA) research. The truth is that the question can never be answered firmly. Whilst it is possible that the Moriori were separate 'race' to the Maori, it is extremely unlikely they were. That is not to say that the Moriori were not a Maori (or other) Polynesian group who were dispersed from the main islands by more aggressive encroachment. They may have even chosen to leave the mainland on their own account or could have done so by accident. What is clear is that the matter is in no way resolved. I also think that the current article should be edited to 'debunk' the myth that the issue is resolved. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The hell surfer ( talk • contribs) 05:32, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Myths I believe are assumed to be correct as those myths that you are referring to are stories that have been passed on for 1000's of years, of course they may not be 100% correct as the story is only as good as the story teller and any embellish the story tellers might have added. There has to be at least some truth to stories (or myths) even if they have been changed or slightly changed over the years. The myth you are discussing is that Moriori came to New Zealand before Maori and although I'm not sure that it matters so much today. Whilst trying to make sense of if I'm not sure how it can be that a lighter skinned race resulted from mixing with a darker skinned race unless there was a lighter skinned race around at the time. As the Maori were the more aggressive did they take advantage (putting it nicely) of the Moriori women who went on to have lighter skinned children. One of the points that makes it easier to believe that the Moriori fled from New Zealand is that Maori are the aggressive race. If you won't listen to science or there is no science that is deemed validating enough you have to look at the nature of the two races and from that I believe that they are certainly two different races...if only due to one men and women being passive and the other being aggressive. Maori practised canabalism, scary enough at the best of times, fight or flight is an unarguable built in reaction of all humans. I would say understandable that the passive Moriori fled to the Chattam Islands, it makes it very easy to believe and it's where they are still found today; until recently I believe there were still in the last 100 or so years full blooded Moriori in the Chathams. Maori continued to fight among themselves and continued to practise canabalism amoung themselves, apparently they also followed the Moriori to the Chathams. The lighter skinned caucasions europeans included, arrived in New Zealand after the immigration of Maori to New Zealand. Dna evidence shows that aboriginals are the only race that have all different DNA markers...from Maori, European, British, Chinese, German etc and all of those races have some of the same markers. The big difference that I have noted in all the texts that I have read is that Maori are an aggressive people as are the Spanish while the Moriori are passive people as the Nuie Islanders are. It's why I believe the stories that you are calling myths, those so called myths have carried on throughout the years for a reason and I'd say it's because it's more than likely true. Migration is certainly the way of the world, whether it be by conquering or by immigration people move around the world and cohabitate in their new found homes. Answer the question what lighter skinned race mixed with either to result in a lighter skinned race? It doesn't make sense! ( Aeriallaw ( talk) 10:51, 14 February 2017 (UTC))
I shortened the convoluted sentence (partly my fault) about the origin and meaning of the word moriori. Kahuroa 05:00, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I've merged most of the content from Moriori of The Chatham Islands, a more recent article on the same subject. I'm not sure that what I've added is correct, or that I haven't missed something, so feel free to check. -- Avenue 01:08, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Would there be any value in changing "about 1500" to "between the ninth and sixteenth century"? Matt ( talk) 23:39, 9 December 2007 (UTC) No. Because that is almost certainly incorrect as of 2012. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.58.189.177 ( talk) 02:56, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Do others think the Iwi template should be added? Not sure if its appropriate.
Matt ( talk) 03:52, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
False. Many New Zealanders still believe this - trying not be racist - Maori have shut this hypothesis down, as they believe they were the first here. Of cause everything is down to belief and opinions - but what I'm trying to say is the hypothesis that Moriori exsisted is actually widely belived. CipherPixel ( talk) 10:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Quite so. Maori oral histories, related to anthropologists in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, never spoke of Moriori being there before them. Pakeha built the whole idea from scratch, based mainly on the belief that Moriori were Melanesians who must have come from New Zealand but appeared to be a distinct people from the Polynesian Maori. The notion of Melanesian Moriori has long since been disproved. And it was a Pakeha, Michael King, who finally laid the misconception to rest. No New Zealand historian today believes that Moriori were pre-Maori inhabitants of NZ. I've read histories of NZ by King, Belich, Mein Smith and others, and there is clear scholarly consensus. To my knowledge, the only people who still like to cling on to the old nonsense are random people who have no expert knowledge of history, and simply want to find a way to deny that Maori are genuine tangata whenua. Aridd ( talk) 13:09, 12 September 2008 (UTC) Have to ask...what polynesian Maori are you referring to? ( Aeriallaw ( talk) 11:15, 14 February 2017 (UTC))
I find all this quite confusing. Linguistic evidence does not "debunk the myth". It merely swings the pendulum back towards the likelihood that Moriori were originally Maori, from mainland NZ. The only way this issue can be resolved for sure is through DNA tests - especially since contemporary accounts stated that Moriori were physically distinct from Maori. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.240.61.2 ( talk) 01:43, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
I took this out: Māori may have developed as a variant of Moriori. Wrong, because Māori is the older word, which we know for sure because Māori as a word has cognates in other Polynesian languages and has been reconstructed to Proto-Polynesian as maqoli or maaqoli. Moriori does not which means it has to be the younger word. Kahuroa ( talk) 11:36, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
http://www.dnzb.govt.nz/dnzb/alt_essayBody.asp?essayID=3B16 This link should help: Baucke had written an article and Shand is mentioned for the vocabulary. I believe King mentions Shand as well for this reason. Skinner is also mentioned. Lets try to have a constructive discussion which contributes Sources. It also pays to remember that back in the 1800s people were rarely innocent academics and had vested interests. Some further avenues are possible: Artifacts will have been collected by missionaries such as Baucke. Probably some will be in NZ Museums but others may be in Europe. Understanding the Colonial interaction from all angles can bring more written information to light; whalers, missionaries, commerce: trade items & merchants, linguistic information (not always in English, check German mission articles - ie Leipzig Moravians). The descendents of all Morioris have some form of the culture still a part of them so they can also be asked. They will remember what Grandma cooked or particular ways of their elders. Perhaps those interested spend 5 minutes checking out their angle and come back with a contribution of scholar based evidence. There is plenty of it out there, it will also make Wikipedia better than an old textbook. I think it would be great if Maori could give a background as to their groups who are most like the Moriori or elements they see as similar and possible points of connection. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Simongillespie ( talk • contribs) 16:38, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
This article is dramatically biased.
The question of whether there were pre-Maori inhabitants of New Zealand is highly controversial current topic -- with the Maori-only camp periodically claiming the issue is completely settled in their favor, and anything to the contrary is debunked racism.
The question of the ethnic origins of the Moriori of the Chathams is also not settled -- they were clearly physically distinct from the Maori.
There are political and economic issues skewing the entire debate: the Maori base their moral claims on being "the" indigenous people of NZ, not one of several invading peoples; the present day Chatham Islanders who may be slightly of Moriori ancestry can claim coverage for the Chatham Islands under the Waitangi Treaty (with huge economic benefits) only if they are the "same people" as the Maori of mainland New Zealand with whom the treaty was negotiated.
Here's the giveaway: "It [the 'myth' of the Moriori] still appears sometimes in overseas publications, such as recent editions of Encarta". Clearly something appearing in a (non-political-activist-edited) encyclopedia is not "debunked" and needs to be discussed in a Wikipedia article neutrally and dispassionately.
Surely the truth of the origin of Moriori can be determined by a dna test, I would be interested to know the result. If the evidence shows Moriori arrived before Maori I don't think that changes anything. Maori are Tāngata Whenua. Different language indicates either a different origin or a large gap in which the two groups are seperate. This article is big on political correctness and a little short on evidence. As for the matter of the genocide of the Moriori I think the British were complicit in this to gain land. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bortt ( talk • contribs) 11:07, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Someone has added unsourced edits claiming that "They were systematically hunted and eaten by Maori on mainland New Zealand until they were wiped out there", and implying that such was the majority view of historians. I've reverted them, but this article may need to be patrolled from time to time to prevent unsourced opinions from being added in. Aridd ( talk) 12:46, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Have not seen the "unsourced edits" mentioned above, have never seen the above quote on this page. However I am sure there are some Mori Ori that read this page who will challenge your point of view. Having all your people murdered and then being told Mori ori are really Maori would kinda of suck if you ae Mori Ori. As would having to pretend you are Maori to claim your rights under the treaty of Waitangi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.73.132.29 ( talk) 09:32, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
"current research indicates that ancestral Moriori were Māori" you apparently have not read the text you are referring to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.73.132.29 ( talk) 09:57, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
"It has been established as fact that the ancestors of the Moriori were Maori who migrated to the Chathams." Please provide evidence of this 'fact' that you said no one is saying. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.73.132.29 ( talk) 10:04, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
I am old enough to have seen carbon dated archaeological evidence of Moriori being here before Maori if you have contrary archaeological evidence, please present it because your artice is rich on political correctness and weak on fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.73.132.29 ( talk) 10:14, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
well I guess now we are getting somewhere. Yes i agree the evidence, now hidden in Te Papa archives could point to Maori being here before 1280, but since it is hidden and not open to public scrutiny we will just have to guess at what the evidence, that we can't examine might point to. I would like to know if Maori were here pre 1280 wouldn't you? Also if the information I was given was false, and I am willing to accept that, I would like to know the truth. So why not bring out all the hidden evidence and find out.
How does one Historian's book "dispel archaeological myths?" Just another biast section that chooses to ignore what the majority of hard evidence says. CipherPixel ( talk) 14:52, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
Hi, Aridd here. Just passing through quickly; can't log in because I'm on self-enforced wikibreak. Just to cite James Belich, from Making Peoples, p.26: "The Moriori myth was rejected as early as 1859 by the able historian and ethnographer Arthur Thomson, and, as anthropologist H.D. Skinner pointed out in 1923, there has never been very solid evidence for it." As sources for that passage, Belich provides: Thomson, Arthur, The Story of New Zealand, Past and Present, Savage and Civilized, 2 vols, London, 1859, i, 61; and: Skinner, H.D., The Morioris of the Chatham Islands, Honolulu, 1923. Belich also mentions the settlement of the Chatham Islands, which lead to the appearance of a distinct Moriori people (pp.65-6). There were no Moriori before the 15th century or thereabouts. As Gadfium rightly points out, "every reputable historian would affirm that the idea of Moriori as a separate people not originating from Māori was a myth". CipherPixel, we're waiting for your "hard evidence" to the contrary. Who are these "scientists" you allude to? 82.121.233.50 ( talk) 12:05, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Also, K.R. Howe in Te Ara:
Now that I'm able to log in once more, I've added the information and references to the article. Aridd ( talk) 08:36, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
So this is your first academic source, traditions are not always historically accurate, so no, you can’t validate a tradition if it describes something that didn’t actually happen. If the tradional belief is accurate then archaeology can be used to validate it.
Campbell, Matthew (2008), "The historical archaeology of New Zealand’s prehistory"
“Her specific concern was the expectations that the claimants may have had of archaeology, that it could be used to validate tradition. She concluded that generally archaeology and tradition refer to two very different understandings of the past, and neither can be used to validate the other, nor to disprove the other, though local tradition can provide a useful framework for interpreting archaeology.” —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bortt ( talk • contribs) 07:51, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Recent posting by 60.234.131.163 reverted, raised some concerns about the rejection of the hypothesis of a racially distinct pre-Maori Moriori people:
I reverted this as unsourced etc, but it might be worth a comment here. Snori ( talk) 23:25, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
There will always be people who believe in fringe theories for a variety of reasons. As we learn more about the early polynesian migrants to NZ at places like Wairau Bar,the more we find similarities with Moriori. Early "Maori " in NZ also showed no tendency towards a culture based on warriors and warfare as happened in NZ and the North Island especially, from about 1500. It seems that a variety of events happened in the South Island about 1450ish which drove Maori to migrate-some to the North Island and some to the Chathams. We are finding out more about the "1450" events every year. An underlying cause may have been climate change. Other likely causes were earthquakes and Tsunamis. As mainly coastal dwelling people, without any scientific understanding of random natural events, it must have been terrifying to live on the Otago coast then given that many food sources-especially Moa had been hunted to extinction. Anyone who could survive on the Otago coast in 1450 could survive on the Chathams. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 ( talk) 17:41, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
Ngati Mutanga and Tama were 2 small Taranaki tribes that had been obliged to form an alliance with Te Rauparaha's Ngati Toa tribe from West Waikato. If they had not joined in his heke (invasion)of Wellington their existence would have been in doubt, as Te Rauparaha was a ruthless general. The 2 smaller tribes were given land in Wellington but were subject to the ultimate authority/mana of Te Rauparaha. It is known that Ngati Mutanga and Tama were uncomfortable under Te Rauparaha's mana. Inter iwi and inter hapu squabbles could(and regularly did) lead to bad feelings and even war. In the north a petty squabble between some girls lead to a full on war. The broader answer to why the 2 tribes wanted to invade another island is -they were warlike ,it was normal (tika) in Maori society to solve problems by war,they were well armed and Maori had travelled wildly in the Pacific as sailors and whalers since 1800 so were familiar with the passive culture of the Moriori in the Chathams.At that time the Chathams were not controlled by any European power. The Chathams were not part of NZ until some 6 or 7 years after the Taranaki tribes' invasion - well after the Treaty of Waitangi was signed in mainland NZ.
An additional reason for leaving was that Ngati Mutanga and Tama had fought a series of large battles with various Waikato invaders over a number of years and normally been decisively beaten. Such Waikato warrior leaders as Te Wherowhero and Te Waharoa took control of all the north Taranaki rohe and killed ,ate and enslaved prisoners throughout the early and mid 1830s. It was these same Waikatos who had forced out Te Rauparaha and his Ngati Toa, who were far more powerful militarily than the 2 North Taranaki iwi.Claudia
There are two points I would like clarified. 1. The invasion and genocide of the Moriori appears to have been British planned using local Maori to cop the blame, I say that as a person of British descent. 2. The race and origin of Moriori can be easily determined by dna testing, this article seems very short on facts and evidence, and long on speculation. 121.73.23.138
I can see no reason to include the fact that it has been novelised in the sections dealing with history. If somebody wants to include this fact, then they can create a section about this in popular culture. Until then it'll be deleted. Permanent Student ( talk) 06:06, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
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The article currently isn't very clear about what, exactly, this early theory was. Was it:
The second paragraph of the lead - in versions of the article prior to 12 December 2018 - implied either theory 1 or theory 2. The second paragraph of the lead - following an edit by an IP on 12 December 2018 - implies only theory 1. However, the first paragraph of the "Origin" section implies theory number 3 only. We should be consistent about what, exactly, this (now-discredited) theory was. Also, perhaps, all discussion of this earlier theory should be moved to the "Origin" section, leaving the lead section to describe only the actual origin of the Moriori? Ross Finlayson ( talk) 17:23, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
I got King, 2000 and Richards, 2018 (both called Moriori) out from the libaray and will be cleaning up a few things. I hope to add a bit more to the European contact section. Should not be anything controversial. Any problems let me know. ( Dushan Jugum ( talk) 06:28, 30 January 2019 (UTC)).
I'm not going to edit this page (at least not without checking here first), but I just saw a very good documentary here in NZ, in which present-day Moriori asserted that according to their understanding of their own oral history, they arrived at Rehoku directly from Eastern Polynesia (according to those in the documentary around the same time as Maori were travelling to NZ).
It may not be the accepted historical account, but I think a people's own oral history deserves at least a mention. Here is the link:
https://www.maoritelevision.com/shows/chatham-islanders/S01E001/chatham-islanders-episode-1
Would there be any objection to my mentioning what is said in this documentary? I personally found it most interesting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grammarchris ( talk • contribs) 22:55, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the revert and explanation today by user:VeryRarelyStable. I ran a quick search on google scholar and got 789=maori "classical period" , and 508=maori "classic period". Thinking about it, to me classic period would fit better than classical period. The words do have different meanings so I am now assuming that the majority of authors in google scholar have confused the meanings or have copied 'classical' from another text without checking, which I did. The use of 'classical' for other periods' in history, eg Greek, adds to the confusion. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 06:13, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
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Claims that the Moriori were 'wiped out' by Maori are untrue.
Perhaps you meant full blooded ANGLES? Gringo300 08:42, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
From what I know, the Chatham didn't support many people (with the technology available to the Moriori). Could you estimate how many Moriori lived there? Even roughly: hundreds? thousands?
I've put this in the
Category:Maori, but it seems wrong there. Any suggestions? [[User:Grutness|
Grutness
talk
]] 09:48, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I'm somewhat confused by what the article says. On the one hand it states that "ancestral Moriori migrated as Māori from ... New Zealand about 1500 AD". On the other hand it states that it is an "unsubstantiated myth that the 'Moriori' ... originally inhabited New Zealand before the fairer-skinned Māori arrived".
Although I acknowledge that the two statements do not necessarily contradict each other, they still leave me somewhat confused as to the origin of the Moriori.
I believe that a clarification is required. What is myth and what is assumed to be correct? -- Oz1cz 09:29, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Why call it a "debunked" myth? Also, please source the scholars who now agree about the origin of the Moriori, and whether these scholars opinions are the majority or not.
How does Michael Kings one book change the myth to debunked and then shift the burden of proof on to the other side? Michael Kings book is based on as much fact as you get by going to Auckland Museum (near nil) and the rest is hearsay and conjecture. 60.234.238.153 10:52, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree -- Michael Kings book should in no way be taken as definitive. He gives very little historical evidence and bases his claim on fickle etymology in the similarities between the Moriori language and the Maori dialect of certain South Island tribes. No definitive archeological evidence backs up his claim, neither does any genetic (mtDNA) research. The truth is that the question can never be answered firmly. Whilst it is possible that the Moriori were separate 'race' to the Maori, it is extremely unlikely they were. That is not to say that the Moriori were not a Maori (or other) Polynesian group who were dispersed from the main islands by more aggressive encroachment. They may have even chosen to leave the mainland on their own account or could have done so by accident. What is clear is that the matter is in no way resolved. I also think that the current article should be edited to 'debunk' the myth that the issue is resolved. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The hell surfer ( talk • contribs) 05:32, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Myths I believe are assumed to be correct as those myths that you are referring to are stories that have been passed on for 1000's of years, of course they may not be 100% correct as the story is only as good as the story teller and any embellish the story tellers might have added. There has to be at least some truth to stories (or myths) even if they have been changed or slightly changed over the years. The myth you are discussing is that Moriori came to New Zealand before Maori and although I'm not sure that it matters so much today. Whilst trying to make sense of if I'm not sure how it can be that a lighter skinned race resulted from mixing with a darker skinned race unless there was a lighter skinned race around at the time. As the Maori were the more aggressive did they take advantage (putting it nicely) of the Moriori women who went on to have lighter skinned children. One of the points that makes it easier to believe that the Moriori fled from New Zealand is that Maori are the aggressive race. If you won't listen to science or there is no science that is deemed validating enough you have to look at the nature of the two races and from that I believe that they are certainly two different races...if only due to one men and women being passive and the other being aggressive. Maori practised canabalism, scary enough at the best of times, fight or flight is an unarguable built in reaction of all humans. I would say understandable that the passive Moriori fled to the Chattam Islands, it makes it very easy to believe and it's where they are still found today; until recently I believe there were still in the last 100 or so years full blooded Moriori in the Chathams. Maori continued to fight among themselves and continued to practise canabalism amoung themselves, apparently they also followed the Moriori to the Chathams. The lighter skinned caucasions europeans included, arrived in New Zealand after the immigration of Maori to New Zealand. Dna evidence shows that aboriginals are the only race that have all different DNA markers...from Maori, European, British, Chinese, German etc and all of those races have some of the same markers. The big difference that I have noted in all the texts that I have read is that Maori are an aggressive people as are the Spanish while the Moriori are passive people as the Nuie Islanders are. It's why I believe the stories that you are calling myths, those so called myths have carried on throughout the years for a reason and I'd say it's because it's more than likely true. Migration is certainly the way of the world, whether it be by conquering or by immigration people move around the world and cohabitate in their new found homes. Answer the question what lighter skinned race mixed with either to result in a lighter skinned race? It doesn't make sense! ( Aeriallaw ( talk) 10:51, 14 February 2017 (UTC))
I shortened the convoluted sentence (partly my fault) about the origin and meaning of the word moriori. Kahuroa 05:00, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I've merged most of the content from Moriori of The Chatham Islands, a more recent article on the same subject. I'm not sure that what I've added is correct, or that I haven't missed something, so feel free to check. -- Avenue 01:08, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Would there be any value in changing "about 1500" to "between the ninth and sixteenth century"? Matt ( talk) 23:39, 9 December 2007 (UTC) No. Because that is almost certainly incorrect as of 2012. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.58.189.177 ( talk) 02:56, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Do others think the Iwi template should be added? Not sure if its appropriate.
Matt ( talk) 03:52, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
False. Many New Zealanders still believe this - trying not be racist - Maori have shut this hypothesis down, as they believe they were the first here. Of cause everything is down to belief and opinions - but what I'm trying to say is the hypothesis that Moriori exsisted is actually widely belived. CipherPixel ( talk) 10:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Quite so. Maori oral histories, related to anthropologists in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, never spoke of Moriori being there before them. Pakeha built the whole idea from scratch, based mainly on the belief that Moriori were Melanesians who must have come from New Zealand but appeared to be a distinct people from the Polynesian Maori. The notion of Melanesian Moriori has long since been disproved. And it was a Pakeha, Michael King, who finally laid the misconception to rest. No New Zealand historian today believes that Moriori were pre-Maori inhabitants of NZ. I've read histories of NZ by King, Belich, Mein Smith and others, and there is clear scholarly consensus. To my knowledge, the only people who still like to cling on to the old nonsense are random people who have no expert knowledge of history, and simply want to find a way to deny that Maori are genuine tangata whenua. Aridd ( talk) 13:09, 12 September 2008 (UTC) Have to ask...what polynesian Maori are you referring to? ( Aeriallaw ( talk) 11:15, 14 February 2017 (UTC))
I find all this quite confusing. Linguistic evidence does not "debunk the myth". It merely swings the pendulum back towards the likelihood that Moriori were originally Maori, from mainland NZ. The only way this issue can be resolved for sure is through DNA tests - especially since contemporary accounts stated that Moriori were physically distinct from Maori. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.240.61.2 ( talk) 01:43, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
I took this out: Māori may have developed as a variant of Moriori. Wrong, because Māori is the older word, which we know for sure because Māori as a word has cognates in other Polynesian languages and has been reconstructed to Proto-Polynesian as maqoli or maaqoli. Moriori does not which means it has to be the younger word. Kahuroa ( talk) 11:36, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
http://www.dnzb.govt.nz/dnzb/alt_essayBody.asp?essayID=3B16 This link should help: Baucke had written an article and Shand is mentioned for the vocabulary. I believe King mentions Shand as well for this reason. Skinner is also mentioned. Lets try to have a constructive discussion which contributes Sources. It also pays to remember that back in the 1800s people were rarely innocent academics and had vested interests. Some further avenues are possible: Artifacts will have been collected by missionaries such as Baucke. Probably some will be in NZ Museums but others may be in Europe. Understanding the Colonial interaction from all angles can bring more written information to light; whalers, missionaries, commerce: trade items & merchants, linguistic information (not always in English, check German mission articles - ie Leipzig Moravians). The descendents of all Morioris have some form of the culture still a part of them so they can also be asked. They will remember what Grandma cooked or particular ways of their elders. Perhaps those interested spend 5 minutes checking out their angle and come back with a contribution of scholar based evidence. There is plenty of it out there, it will also make Wikipedia better than an old textbook. I think it would be great if Maori could give a background as to their groups who are most like the Moriori or elements they see as similar and possible points of connection. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Simongillespie ( talk • contribs) 16:38, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
This article is dramatically biased.
The question of whether there were pre-Maori inhabitants of New Zealand is highly controversial current topic -- with the Maori-only camp periodically claiming the issue is completely settled in their favor, and anything to the contrary is debunked racism.
The question of the ethnic origins of the Moriori of the Chathams is also not settled -- they were clearly physically distinct from the Maori.
There are political and economic issues skewing the entire debate: the Maori base their moral claims on being "the" indigenous people of NZ, not one of several invading peoples; the present day Chatham Islanders who may be slightly of Moriori ancestry can claim coverage for the Chatham Islands under the Waitangi Treaty (with huge economic benefits) only if they are the "same people" as the Maori of mainland New Zealand with whom the treaty was negotiated.
Here's the giveaway: "It [the 'myth' of the Moriori] still appears sometimes in overseas publications, such as recent editions of Encarta". Clearly something appearing in a (non-political-activist-edited) encyclopedia is not "debunked" and needs to be discussed in a Wikipedia article neutrally and dispassionately.
Surely the truth of the origin of Moriori can be determined by a dna test, I would be interested to know the result. If the evidence shows Moriori arrived before Maori I don't think that changes anything. Maori are Tāngata Whenua. Different language indicates either a different origin or a large gap in which the two groups are seperate. This article is big on political correctness and a little short on evidence. As for the matter of the genocide of the Moriori I think the British were complicit in this to gain land. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bortt ( talk • contribs) 11:07, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Someone has added unsourced edits claiming that "They were systematically hunted and eaten by Maori on mainland New Zealand until they were wiped out there", and implying that such was the majority view of historians. I've reverted them, but this article may need to be patrolled from time to time to prevent unsourced opinions from being added in. Aridd ( talk) 12:46, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Have not seen the "unsourced edits" mentioned above, have never seen the above quote on this page. However I am sure there are some Mori Ori that read this page who will challenge your point of view. Having all your people murdered and then being told Mori ori are really Maori would kinda of suck if you ae Mori Ori. As would having to pretend you are Maori to claim your rights under the treaty of Waitangi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.73.132.29 ( talk) 09:32, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
"current research indicates that ancestral Moriori were Māori" you apparently have not read the text you are referring to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.73.132.29 ( talk) 09:57, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
"It has been established as fact that the ancestors of the Moriori were Maori who migrated to the Chathams." Please provide evidence of this 'fact' that you said no one is saying. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.73.132.29 ( talk) 10:04, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
I am old enough to have seen carbon dated archaeological evidence of Moriori being here before Maori if you have contrary archaeological evidence, please present it because your artice is rich on political correctness and weak on fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.73.132.29 ( talk) 10:14, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
well I guess now we are getting somewhere. Yes i agree the evidence, now hidden in Te Papa archives could point to Maori being here before 1280, but since it is hidden and not open to public scrutiny we will just have to guess at what the evidence, that we can't examine might point to. I would like to know if Maori were here pre 1280 wouldn't you? Also if the information I was given was false, and I am willing to accept that, I would like to know the truth. So why not bring out all the hidden evidence and find out.
How does one Historian's book "dispel archaeological myths?" Just another biast section that chooses to ignore what the majority of hard evidence says. CipherPixel ( talk) 14:52, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
Hi, Aridd here. Just passing through quickly; can't log in because I'm on self-enforced wikibreak. Just to cite James Belich, from Making Peoples, p.26: "The Moriori myth was rejected as early as 1859 by the able historian and ethnographer Arthur Thomson, and, as anthropologist H.D. Skinner pointed out in 1923, there has never been very solid evidence for it." As sources for that passage, Belich provides: Thomson, Arthur, The Story of New Zealand, Past and Present, Savage and Civilized, 2 vols, London, 1859, i, 61; and: Skinner, H.D., The Morioris of the Chatham Islands, Honolulu, 1923. Belich also mentions the settlement of the Chatham Islands, which lead to the appearance of a distinct Moriori people (pp.65-6). There were no Moriori before the 15th century or thereabouts. As Gadfium rightly points out, "every reputable historian would affirm that the idea of Moriori as a separate people not originating from Māori was a myth". CipherPixel, we're waiting for your "hard evidence" to the contrary. Who are these "scientists" you allude to? 82.121.233.50 ( talk) 12:05, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Also, K.R. Howe in Te Ara:
Now that I'm able to log in once more, I've added the information and references to the article. Aridd ( talk) 08:36, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
So this is your first academic source, traditions are not always historically accurate, so no, you can’t validate a tradition if it describes something that didn’t actually happen. If the tradional belief is accurate then archaeology can be used to validate it.
Campbell, Matthew (2008), "The historical archaeology of New Zealand’s prehistory"
“Her specific concern was the expectations that the claimants may have had of archaeology, that it could be used to validate tradition. She concluded that generally archaeology and tradition refer to two very different understandings of the past, and neither can be used to validate the other, nor to disprove the other, though local tradition can provide a useful framework for interpreting archaeology.” —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bortt ( talk • contribs) 07:51, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Recent posting by 60.234.131.163 reverted, raised some concerns about the rejection of the hypothesis of a racially distinct pre-Maori Moriori people:
I reverted this as unsourced etc, but it might be worth a comment here. Snori ( talk) 23:25, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
There will always be people who believe in fringe theories for a variety of reasons. As we learn more about the early polynesian migrants to NZ at places like Wairau Bar,the more we find similarities with Moriori. Early "Maori " in NZ also showed no tendency towards a culture based on warriors and warfare as happened in NZ and the North Island especially, from about 1500. It seems that a variety of events happened in the South Island about 1450ish which drove Maori to migrate-some to the North Island and some to the Chathams. We are finding out more about the "1450" events every year. An underlying cause may have been climate change. Other likely causes were earthquakes and Tsunamis. As mainly coastal dwelling people, without any scientific understanding of random natural events, it must have been terrifying to live on the Otago coast then given that many food sources-especially Moa had been hunted to extinction. Anyone who could survive on the Otago coast in 1450 could survive on the Chathams. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 ( talk) 17:41, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
Ngati Mutanga and Tama were 2 small Taranaki tribes that had been obliged to form an alliance with Te Rauparaha's Ngati Toa tribe from West Waikato. If they had not joined in his heke (invasion)of Wellington their existence would have been in doubt, as Te Rauparaha was a ruthless general. The 2 smaller tribes were given land in Wellington but were subject to the ultimate authority/mana of Te Rauparaha. It is known that Ngati Mutanga and Tama were uncomfortable under Te Rauparaha's mana. Inter iwi and inter hapu squabbles could(and regularly did) lead to bad feelings and even war. In the north a petty squabble between some girls lead to a full on war. The broader answer to why the 2 tribes wanted to invade another island is -they were warlike ,it was normal (tika) in Maori society to solve problems by war,they were well armed and Maori had travelled wildly in the Pacific as sailors and whalers since 1800 so were familiar with the passive culture of the Moriori in the Chathams.At that time the Chathams were not controlled by any European power. The Chathams were not part of NZ until some 6 or 7 years after the Taranaki tribes' invasion - well after the Treaty of Waitangi was signed in mainland NZ.
An additional reason for leaving was that Ngati Mutanga and Tama had fought a series of large battles with various Waikato invaders over a number of years and normally been decisively beaten. Such Waikato warrior leaders as Te Wherowhero and Te Waharoa took control of all the north Taranaki rohe and killed ,ate and enslaved prisoners throughout the early and mid 1830s. It was these same Waikatos who had forced out Te Rauparaha and his Ngati Toa, who were far more powerful militarily than the 2 North Taranaki iwi.Claudia
There are two points I would like clarified. 1. The invasion and genocide of the Moriori appears to have been British planned using local Maori to cop the blame, I say that as a person of British descent. 2. The race and origin of Moriori can be easily determined by dna testing, this article seems very short on facts and evidence, and long on speculation. 121.73.23.138
I can see no reason to include the fact that it has been novelised in the sections dealing with history. If somebody wants to include this fact, then they can create a section about this in popular culture. Until then it'll be deleted. Permanent Student ( talk) 06:06, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
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The article currently isn't very clear about what, exactly, this early theory was. Was it:
The second paragraph of the lead - in versions of the article prior to 12 December 2018 - implied either theory 1 or theory 2. The second paragraph of the lead - following an edit by an IP on 12 December 2018 - implies only theory 1. However, the first paragraph of the "Origin" section implies theory number 3 only. We should be consistent about what, exactly, this (now-discredited) theory was. Also, perhaps, all discussion of this earlier theory should be moved to the "Origin" section, leaving the lead section to describe only the actual origin of the Moriori? Ross Finlayson ( talk) 17:23, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
I got King, 2000 and Richards, 2018 (both called Moriori) out from the libaray and will be cleaning up a few things. I hope to add a bit more to the European contact section. Should not be anything controversial. Any problems let me know. ( Dushan Jugum ( talk) 06:28, 30 January 2019 (UTC)).
I'm not going to edit this page (at least not without checking here first), but I just saw a very good documentary here in NZ, in which present-day Moriori asserted that according to their understanding of their own oral history, they arrived at Rehoku directly from Eastern Polynesia (according to those in the documentary around the same time as Maori were travelling to NZ).
It may not be the accepted historical account, but I think a people's own oral history deserves at least a mention. Here is the link:
https://www.maoritelevision.com/shows/chatham-islanders/S01E001/chatham-islanders-episode-1
Would there be any objection to my mentioning what is said in this documentary? I personally found it most interesting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grammarchris ( talk • contribs) 22:55, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the revert and explanation today by user:VeryRarelyStable. I ran a quick search on google scholar and got 789=maori "classical period" , and 508=maori "classic period". Thinking about it, to me classic period would fit better than classical period. The words do have different meanings so I am now assuming that the majority of authors in google scholar have confused the meanings or have copied 'classical' from another text without checking, which I did. The use of 'classical' for other periods' in history, eg Greek, adds to the confusion. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 06:13, 23 March 2024 (UTC)