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"When the race of Men came about, Morgoth is hinted to have temporarily left his caves of Angband, and dwelled amongst them: ancient legends the Atanatari (Fathers of Men) tried to forget spoke of a Dark Lord, who led them to ban Ilúvatar from their hearts, and worship him. The Atanatari were those Men who repented and fled, but Morgoth ever after had many legions of fallen Men at his service. (Morgoth's Ring: "Tale of Adanel")"
I've only recently read Morgoth's Ring, and my first impression was that it wasn't actually Morgoth, but Sauron, working at his master's command. While it was said in the text that it was Morgoth, it was only the conclusion of Finrod and Andreth, not a statement by Tolkien as an objective narrator. Furthermore, Findor didn't actually hear Adanel's tale - only a brief mention of it by Andreth. While not mentioned anywhere in the text, in my opinion the whole action would be more in the character of Sauron. The Lord in the Tale of Adanel was presented as beautiful in appearance, and if I recall correctly, Melkor was at that time bound to the hroa of Morgoth, the Dark Lord. Furthermore, the Lord said that he was the Giver of Gifts - compare Annatar, the Lord of Gifts, the name taken by Sauron in the Second Age. Of course, I might be wrong :) Not that it's really important, anyway :). Ausir 13:52, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Why "the Morgoth"??? This was obviously a deliberate change, but throughout the Silmarillion, it's just "Morgoth". Shouldn't we stick with the more common (i.e. easily understood) usage? --[[User:Aranel| Aranel (" Sarah")]] 12:42, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
It says in the Silmarillion that Valar are gods. → JarlaxleArtemis 23:53, May 15, 2005 (UTC)
Finnish mythology heavily influenced the conceptualization of the Valar. The anthropomorphic Finnish 'gods' are very similar to the Valar-- Tuone to Mandos, Ahti to Ulmo, Ilmatar to Manwe, Tapio to Orome, etc. ; even the genders match up. The Finnish all-father (God, rather than a god, as it were) is also remote and at a distance from his creation like Eru, and much more so than Odin or Zeus. Beneath the Vala-level were Maiar-type figures of different types, including Vainamoinen, a significant influence on both Gandalf and Tom Bombadil. The Morgoth equivelant would be Louhi, the Witch of the North-- associated with freezing Northland, a dismal kingdom, with hissia (demons or goblins) at her disposal, etc. Even the word "Valar/Vala" is a partial homomyn with "Kalevala," the Finnish myth. Tolkien writes about the influence of Finnish language and myth on Middle-Earth in various of the published "letters." 169.253.4.21 ( talk) 20:56, 25 September 2008 (UTC)TexxasFinn
→ Actually, Louhi from Kalevala was Tolkien's inspiration for Ungoliant. In his earliest writings, she is called the primaeval spirit Móru, who imprisoned the Sun and the Moon underground. Wildespace ( talk) 15:15, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
The article, on the whole, needed a stylistic cleaning and content uprgrading. I took the article as I found it, and rewrote it, incorporating as much of the original content as possible. The first volley of edits were done when I was (accidentally) not logged in. The final edits were completed whenever and as I could. I removed the 'canon' disclaimer as this article now contains references to the multiple versions, revisions, abridgements and amendments that were made to the stories concering Melkor/Morgoth over Tolkien's career (not to mention the fact that the whole 'canon' discussion seems as fragmented and un-final as Tolkien's works!) More edits to follow black thorn of brethil 19:58, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
1. It is important that Morgoth be discussed in the context of his 'mythic' role vis-à-vis later inhabitants of Middle-earth. The Silmarillion is, for characters like Aragorn, what the Old Testament is for latter-day members of Western civilization: it is the body of foundation-myths and explanation-myths of their world that, regardless of their historical accuracy, act as (among other things) a moral guide and a justification-for/explanation-of current cultural attitudes/beliefs. That the characters of Middle-earth take these myths as history reduces not one whit the mythic nature of the early tales - disbelief is NOT a condition of 'myth-ness' (see myth).
2. There is no need in the introductory elements of this article to go into Morgoth's detailed history (as an ex-Valar, for example) as the 'history' section goes over everything. Anything else would be redundant.
3. The term 'ressentiment' is NOT a misspelling of 'resentment' (see ressentiment): it is, rather, a precisely chosen term that best describes the relationship between Melkor, Eru, and Melkor's rebellion/turn to Evil. black thorn of brethil 21:22, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone else think that the vast number of inverted commas is rather excessive? Just to pick an example or two:
I can understand the requirement to put some names in inverted commas but examples like 'creation myth', 'heaven' and 'tribe' seem superfluous and needlessly distracting. Is there something odd about the terms that requires the emphasis? I come from a scientific background so maybe my natural language is different to those of a more literary inclination.
If no one says anything I'll be bold and edit the article. I just thought I would say something before wading in. Slinky Puppet 17:05, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
This is all excellent work, but could I make three sylistic complaints?
Most article openings are short and to the point, giving background information and a summary. I think that is almost law for wiki am I right?
So whats with the book that begins this article? User:69.151.56.35 05:34 16 May 2006
I've only read the Lord of the Rings books, so where is the rest of this coming from? I mean, this is like almost giving away the whole Tolkien series.
The LOTR article is ok, but just Morgoth alone is incredibly just making reading the books pointless. Remember, we are not here to put the books online, rather for summary and info.
This should contain critical info about Melkor/Morogoth, not his lifes story, thats why people would read more than LOTR! User:69.151.56.35 05:39 16 May 2006
Was that really necessary? Very few articles use this style, so it's not "standard" on Wikipedia by any stretch. It's also a PIA to type, so it's not going to remain uniform for any length of time. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Whilst I enjoyed reading this, I was frustrated by the lack of connection between the section on "Character development & history" and the way Melkor is featured in the popular books, specifically, The Silmarillion and the LOTR.
I guess my issue is this: this section begins with "In the early versions of Tolkien's stories..." which immediately implies that The Silmarillion as published is somehow "wrong". It might not be what Tolkien was working towards, but it is what most of his readers will be familiar with.
Is there a way to word this section so that instead of being pejorative, the section distinguishes between how Melkor appears in the mainstream books and how Tolkien continued to develop the character in the ultimately unpublished versions of the story only now revealed in, for example, Morgoth's Ring? As it stands, it is a nonsense to have an article that says that he was "more powerful than all of the Valar combined" and yet in The Silmarilllion he quite obviously isn't that powerful, given the multiple times the Valar defeat him in that book.
Cheers, Neale Neale Monks 10:38, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
what in the name of durin happened to that picture of morgoth that someone took away? please post it back up
In my opinion I don't believe it was Tolkiens' intent to portray Melkor as weak, and "washed-up" Vala. It could be argued that Tolkien's emphasis was on the might, courage, and strength of Fingolfin.
I have a question, In the beginning of the Silmarillion, Tolkein mentions that Morgoth, 'Lost his ability to create, and was left only with the power to alter, and used that power rather to destroy or corrupt, and would twist all that he would to his own designs.' If this is true, then what species did he corrupt to create dragons? Tolkein says in the book that Morgoth 'created' dragons later in the book, but doesnt this conflict with what he said about Melkor/Morgoth earlier in the Silmarillion? BlueChicken 05:07, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
It does say that somewhere in the cannon. Look for references to trolls as a mockery of ents. The exact quote is "he could only mock, not make", Treeberd also alludes to this, and says that Morgoth missed the mark with ents as Trolls are inferior to ents in many ways. As for dragons they are twisted versions of "wyrms", but what those are previsely is not described - some soft of large intelligent lizard most likely. The first versions were cold drakes, later versions gained flight and (finally?) fire. Ggb667 14:42, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I dispute this "fact". Even Sam (hardly a scholar) knows that the crystal phial in which was caught the light of Eärendil's star was from a Silmaril rescued by Beren from Morgoth. There is a lengthly discussion where Sam and Frodo observe that they are part of the same story and legend and that these go on and on. Bilbo certainly was farmiliar with the lay of Luthien. One might argue that Bilbo didn't know this until he came to Rivendell, but this seems unlikely given the bredth and depth of his love for elvish culture, (even preceeding his first adventure!) which was not every unusual as we can see from the attitudes of the Hobbits towards the elves when they meet them while being pursued by the Ringwraiths when they are still in the Shire during the first leg of their flight to Rivendell. They certainly know about Mordor and Sauron, and the kings of the Shire and at least some of the history of those kings. I would say their knowledge is comperable to that of an average american's knowledge of Oliver Cromwell and William the Conqueror. They know the names, and have some vague idea they're associated with england, but maybe don't know what they did precisely or when. I'd like to replace "...and the Hobbits do not seem to have been aware of his existence." With "and the Hobbits have some vague knowledge of Mordor, Sauron and the history of the Silmarils. Ggb667 14:36, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Just a quick note-- I don't dispute that Hobbits had some vague knowledge of First Age events; but as far as Sam goes...Aragorn told the Hobbits the tale of Beren and Luthien in the Wild near Weathertop. They were also in Rivendell for over two months before they set out. Sam's comments don't necessarily reflect any previous knowledge of the history of the Silmarils. 169.253.4.21 ( talk) 19:27, 25 September 2008 (UTC) TexxasFinn
Melkor/Morgoth Bauglir → Morgoth — Reversion of an earlier move, which was not discussed. Original title was fine TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I see the guy's point but to tell you the truth if Big M bears resemblance to any Disney villain it's Maleficent as she was the first proper Disney villain and arguably the scariest, the most powerful and the most evil. The relationship between Morgoth and Sauron is similar to the relationship between Maleficent and the Evil Queen and at the present minute Sauron is indeed being compared to the Evil Queen on his discussion page.
Add * '''Support''' or * '''Oppose''' on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.
Add any additional comments:
17,700 hits for "Morgoth Bauglir",66,900 hits for "Morgoth",I'm not sure where I got 66,900 the first time 1,030,000 hits for "Morgoth", 674,000 hits for "Melkor".
I think Melkor wins. -- Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント ( talk) 23:47, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Updated: Morgoth clearly wins. Sorry for the error in google results. -- Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント ( talk) 00:11, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I moved this back to Morgoth and fixed all the redirects. Melkor would also be a reasonable name, but in addition to the Google results I think Tolkien clearly used 'Morgoth' more often than 'Melkor' and that is therefor the most commonly used name. -- CBD 11:09, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
how is morgoth a narcissist?. please tell me.
i think we should Add him to the fictional racists category because as it says in the article, morgoth is known to have betrayed his own servants: e.g.,after the noldor were defeated, he confined all men in his service to the lands of hithlum, forbidding them to enter beleriand, their promised reward. since melkor could never fully conquer men, he could really never trust them. it seems that, once victorious, he would have destroyed them just as destroyed them as he intended to destroy his enemies. you'd have to have a bigoted mind about men in order to do that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.94.255.194 ( talk) 01:35, 9 December 2006 (UTC).
did he have any plans for the dwarves?
Lots of the material here is very interesting, but utterly unsourced and not obviously a standard interpretation of Tolkien's work. The section "The Morgoth" about Morgoth's diminuation as a being because of his discord stands out particularly.
This is not the place to post your personal analysis of Morgoth, whatever it be. Interpretations must be referenced to a verifiable source. -- Saforrest 06:30, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Unless there are cogent reasons given for keeping it, I'm going to cut it. It adds no useful information to the article, and much of what's in it is patently absurd. (What is the point of a succession box for an "office" that had only one occupant? And "Dark Lord of Middle-earth"?) TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:19, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
There is some amazing art floating around the internet, by both well known and anonymous artists, depicting Melkor (Morgoth). Wouldn't it be cool to have one right at the top of the article?
For instance, thisis a really good painting.
Please, Please,Please, someone add a picture of morgoth or melkor to this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.94.255.193 ( talk) 19:31, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
has anybody considered adding this image of melkor to the article?: http://www.elfenomeno.com/info/ver/16145/titulo/Melkor-encerrado-en-Mandos. Also has anyone considered adding the image of morgoth by mikel janin to this article? one or the other of these images left of the appearance and characteristics section would be great. Thx. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.94.248.249 ( talk) 23:49, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
User:YLSS left the following note on my talk page instead of here for some reason:
I reverted (and re-reverted) because there's no reason not to include the etymological information you cut. This is never "un-Wikipedia"; Tolkien's main motivation for his legendarium was linguistic, so linguistic information is never improper. It was furthermore incorrect: "Belegur" was not "the Sindarin form" of Melkor. Melkor means "He who arises in might", as is explicitly said in Valaquenta and can be confirmed in the Etymologies, not "Great Death". TCC (talk) (contribs) 17:23, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
The section of Morgoth' weapon Grond in the List of Middle-earth weapons shortly describes the fight between Morgoth and Fingolfin; there it says: "Morgoth managed to kill the High King, but not without receiving seven wounds himself. (nine, if counting the foot and face)". This article, in contrast, states that Morgoth "was stabbed seven times, including in the foot, and was left with a permanent limp. That battle also saw Thorondor, the great Eagle, swoop down and scar Morgoth's face with his talons, a wound that also never healed.", giving the impression that there were 8 wounds overall.
As I do not know which article needs to be corrected (or enhanced to remove confusion), can somebody more knowledgeable please clarify...?
Dirk Stegemann 07:00, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I decided to create a point of reference for removing any irrelevant categories from the article, at the present moment and at any time they reappear in future. These are IMO improper:
For a historical reference, other categories had also been added to this poor article at different points (many got deleted completely): Category:Fictional characters who appear to be somewhat vain or arrogant, Category:Fictional misanthropes, Category:Fictional narcissists, Category:Literature antagonists, Category:Literature villains, Category:Fictional generals, Category:Fictional warlords, Category:Fictional megalomaniacs, Category:Dark Lords, Category:Chief Dark Lords, Category:Fictional magic users, Category:Fictional characters with the power to change their size, Category:Fictional characters with the power to manipulate darkness or shadow, Category:Fictional evil geniuses. Súrendil ( talk) 18:57, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Bravo! This category clutter is really aggravating, and really defeats the whole purpose of categories. I support all your removals. The "Fictional Twins" bit probably arises from the description of Melkor as the "brother" of Manwë — a reach at best. Elphion ( talk) 19:30, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with their disinclusion as well per above. -- Jupiter Optimus Maximus ( talk) 19:54, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
However I have for the time being re-added three of the above categories which I consider relevant. I have explained why on the history of the page. If anyone has any objections, please contact me. -- Jupiter Optimus Maximus ( talk) 16:39, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
No, this is the place for the discussion. Your arguments [for reference: He's dictator and emperor of Beleriand and he's a mass murderer because he killed thousands of people for no reason other than power. As for mage and demon, well duh!] don't answer the objections above. Elphion ( talk) 17:32, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Very well. Bravo on removing that vandalism by the way Elphion, I'd have undone it myself but I didn't notice it. Anyway, here's my take on the categories. He may have planned on disposing of the Orcs, Wolves, Balrogs, etc once of they were of no further use to him but he was for a time a dictator to them. As for emperor, he was the ruler of the Continent of Beleriand which was certainly large enough to class as an empire. With regards to Fictional mass murderers, he did indeed order the deaths of thousands of people who weren't doing him any harm simply because he wanted to ruler creation. This is quite unlike the innocent Iraqis (rest their souls) who have died in the Iraq War as people like George Bush aren't actually trying to kill them. They're trying to kill lunatics like the late Sadam Husseine to prevent them from killing more people. I admit Bush is a berk but I think he's a well-intentioned berk. On the subject of the Fictional mages category, a rather ingenious category of my own invention, he does use magic as a weapon and thus is effectively a mage. I thought it would be unfitting to label him a wizard. Finally as regards Fictional demons, he is a fallen angel which is basically what a demon is and he is also an allegory of Satan. I hope I've explained myself sufficiently. -- Jupiter Optimus Maximus ( talk) 18:50, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Well:
Of all your categories, "Demon" is the only one worth considering. But Tolkien avoids the word in his books, just as he resists calling the Valar "angels" -- precisely because both words carry too much freight from other contexts. He felt they were misleading, even inappropriate words to apply within his "sub-created" mythos. Elphion ( talk) 21:37, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Maybe so. Do you think we should include Fictional demons then? -- Jupiter Optimus Maximus ( talk) 23:47, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, I wouldn't, which I thought I had made clear. He's already categorized as a Vala -- and that most accurately reflects what Tolkien wrote about him. Like each of the other Valar, he has his own characteristics; you won't capture him completely by spinning categories around him, and you run the real risk of misleading people by applying categories that really aren't germane. Elphion ( talk) 15:47, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Hmm. You may be right. -- Jupiter Optimus Maximus ( talk) 16:34, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
The section "The Morgoth" has the appearance of original research or unverified claims.
Please add good cites to the article, rather than just discussing here, or remove this section from the article.
Thanks. --
201.17.36.246 (
talk)
18:00, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
I havent done any research on the topic, but it seems pretty obvious that Morgoth is an allusion to the Lucifer of Milton's Paradise Lost. Both were the greatest or the brightest who fell, resulting in a war, between angels in Paradise Lost and Valar in the Silmillarion, and both stories involve a prophecy foretelling a final battle, at the end of times. -- SDedalus91 ( talk) 01:27, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Either I'm crazy, or there are similarities to Zoroastrian concepts and morgoth. Angra Mainyu/Ahriman, Melkor/Morgoth have similar domains: Darkness, the first evil, cold, extremes, Have dragons(or dragon-like beings) at their disposal. Manwe/Ahura Mazda: Chief of good, air, light, mountains. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.94.248.249 ( talk) 23:56, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
This article states that "Morgoth" is a Sindarin name, but how could Fëanor have known Sindarin when he dubbed Melkor with this name? The Noldor hadn't met the Sindar at that point. Since Fëanor definitely wasn't speaking Sindarin, whatever word he actually used should probably be noted, along with a brief discussion of why "Morgoth" is Sindarin despite the fact that the Noldor were his chief foes (and it would also be good to know why the Sindarin "Morgoth" appears in the published Silmarillion -- was a Sindarin-educated loremaster supposed to be narrating?). Elsewhere on the web I found reference to the Noldorin(?) form of the name being "Moringotho", sourced to Morgoth's Ring, but I don't own the book myself and can't verify that. 98.28.19.62 ( talk) 09:26, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Tolkien refers to Morgoth as "The Devil" in this fragment of an interview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFcjBzP7H-E
See 3:50 onwards.
"... particularly after the exiles (Noldor) came back and conducted their war against the Devil...."
Note: I know there was a complete copy of this interview on youtube at one point, but I can no longer find it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GramlerGrindstone ( talk • contribs) 00:13, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
I removed the recently place "more citations" tag -- this article is already well sourced. It consists primarily of summaries of the character's treatment in Tolkien's works, and these do not typically require citations since the source is clear. If there are particular points that require citation, it would be far more helpful to flag those specifically with CN tags. -- Elphion ( talk) 05:58, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect
The Enemy (Middle-earth). The discussion will occur at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 August 14#The Enemy (Middle-earth) until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.
GimliDotNet (
talk)
20:54, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect
Angamando. The discussion will occur at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 August 15#Angamando until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.
Hog Farm
Bacon
01:57, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
I see no point in hiding that Morgoth does figure in LOTR. The fight over the Silmarils is recounted briefly by Aragorn in "A Knife in the Dark", after he sings the song of Tinǘviel. Aragorn does not use the form "Morgoth", but does use the English translation of the name, "The Great Enemy". It is, I believe, of interest that Tolkien had by the time of LOTR worked out enough of the mythology that it could be seen to underlie the events of LOTR. -- Elphion ( talk) 13:11, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
An editor is seeking to use the rare term "Ainu" for a member of the "Ainur". The plural term is moderately well-understood by Tolkien readers; "Ainu" is a rarely-used singular, and however correct it might be, it just makes the article harder to read, which is undesirable. I suggest we leave it as it is, which is correct in British English, and more readable to boot. There certainly should not be repeated edit-warring attempts to insert "Ainu" against consensus. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 14:26, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
I repeatedly stumble over the passage (emphasis is mine):
The expression "In earlier versions" implies that in later versions this was told differently. But no such information follows. While the next paragraph starts with "According to later texts", this pagraph deals with the Dagor Dagorath, an entirely different event.
Can anyone provide information on how the Enemy's first reign ended in later versions? If not, should we not rather remove this qualification? Str1977 (talk) 16:46, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
"When the race of Men came about, Morgoth is hinted to have temporarily left his caves of Angband, and dwelled amongst them: ancient legends the Atanatari (Fathers of Men) tried to forget spoke of a Dark Lord, who led them to ban Ilúvatar from their hearts, and worship him. The Atanatari were those Men who repented and fled, but Morgoth ever after had many legions of fallen Men at his service. (Morgoth's Ring: "Tale of Adanel")"
I've only recently read Morgoth's Ring, and my first impression was that it wasn't actually Morgoth, but Sauron, working at his master's command. While it was said in the text that it was Morgoth, it was only the conclusion of Finrod and Andreth, not a statement by Tolkien as an objective narrator. Furthermore, Findor didn't actually hear Adanel's tale - only a brief mention of it by Andreth. While not mentioned anywhere in the text, in my opinion the whole action would be more in the character of Sauron. The Lord in the Tale of Adanel was presented as beautiful in appearance, and if I recall correctly, Melkor was at that time bound to the hroa of Morgoth, the Dark Lord. Furthermore, the Lord said that he was the Giver of Gifts - compare Annatar, the Lord of Gifts, the name taken by Sauron in the Second Age. Of course, I might be wrong :) Not that it's really important, anyway :). Ausir 13:52, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Why "the Morgoth"??? This was obviously a deliberate change, but throughout the Silmarillion, it's just "Morgoth". Shouldn't we stick with the more common (i.e. easily understood) usage? --[[User:Aranel| Aranel (" Sarah")]] 12:42, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
It says in the Silmarillion that Valar are gods. → JarlaxleArtemis 23:53, May 15, 2005 (UTC)
Finnish mythology heavily influenced the conceptualization of the Valar. The anthropomorphic Finnish 'gods' are very similar to the Valar-- Tuone to Mandos, Ahti to Ulmo, Ilmatar to Manwe, Tapio to Orome, etc. ; even the genders match up. The Finnish all-father (God, rather than a god, as it were) is also remote and at a distance from his creation like Eru, and much more so than Odin or Zeus. Beneath the Vala-level were Maiar-type figures of different types, including Vainamoinen, a significant influence on both Gandalf and Tom Bombadil. The Morgoth equivelant would be Louhi, the Witch of the North-- associated with freezing Northland, a dismal kingdom, with hissia (demons or goblins) at her disposal, etc. Even the word "Valar/Vala" is a partial homomyn with "Kalevala," the Finnish myth. Tolkien writes about the influence of Finnish language and myth on Middle-Earth in various of the published "letters." 169.253.4.21 ( talk) 20:56, 25 September 2008 (UTC)TexxasFinn
→ Actually, Louhi from Kalevala was Tolkien's inspiration for Ungoliant. In his earliest writings, she is called the primaeval spirit Móru, who imprisoned the Sun and the Moon underground. Wildespace ( talk) 15:15, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
The article, on the whole, needed a stylistic cleaning and content uprgrading. I took the article as I found it, and rewrote it, incorporating as much of the original content as possible. The first volley of edits were done when I was (accidentally) not logged in. The final edits were completed whenever and as I could. I removed the 'canon' disclaimer as this article now contains references to the multiple versions, revisions, abridgements and amendments that were made to the stories concering Melkor/Morgoth over Tolkien's career (not to mention the fact that the whole 'canon' discussion seems as fragmented and un-final as Tolkien's works!) More edits to follow black thorn of brethil 19:58, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
1. It is important that Morgoth be discussed in the context of his 'mythic' role vis-à-vis later inhabitants of Middle-earth. The Silmarillion is, for characters like Aragorn, what the Old Testament is for latter-day members of Western civilization: it is the body of foundation-myths and explanation-myths of their world that, regardless of their historical accuracy, act as (among other things) a moral guide and a justification-for/explanation-of current cultural attitudes/beliefs. That the characters of Middle-earth take these myths as history reduces not one whit the mythic nature of the early tales - disbelief is NOT a condition of 'myth-ness' (see myth).
2. There is no need in the introductory elements of this article to go into Morgoth's detailed history (as an ex-Valar, for example) as the 'history' section goes over everything. Anything else would be redundant.
3. The term 'ressentiment' is NOT a misspelling of 'resentment' (see ressentiment): it is, rather, a precisely chosen term that best describes the relationship between Melkor, Eru, and Melkor's rebellion/turn to Evil. black thorn of brethil 21:22, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone else think that the vast number of inverted commas is rather excessive? Just to pick an example or two:
I can understand the requirement to put some names in inverted commas but examples like 'creation myth', 'heaven' and 'tribe' seem superfluous and needlessly distracting. Is there something odd about the terms that requires the emphasis? I come from a scientific background so maybe my natural language is different to those of a more literary inclination.
If no one says anything I'll be bold and edit the article. I just thought I would say something before wading in. Slinky Puppet 17:05, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
This is all excellent work, but could I make three sylistic complaints?
Most article openings are short and to the point, giving background information and a summary. I think that is almost law for wiki am I right?
So whats with the book that begins this article? User:69.151.56.35 05:34 16 May 2006
I've only read the Lord of the Rings books, so where is the rest of this coming from? I mean, this is like almost giving away the whole Tolkien series.
The LOTR article is ok, but just Morgoth alone is incredibly just making reading the books pointless. Remember, we are not here to put the books online, rather for summary and info.
This should contain critical info about Melkor/Morogoth, not his lifes story, thats why people would read more than LOTR! User:69.151.56.35 05:39 16 May 2006
Was that really necessary? Very few articles use this style, so it's not "standard" on Wikipedia by any stretch. It's also a PIA to type, so it's not going to remain uniform for any length of time. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Whilst I enjoyed reading this, I was frustrated by the lack of connection between the section on "Character development & history" and the way Melkor is featured in the popular books, specifically, The Silmarillion and the LOTR.
I guess my issue is this: this section begins with "In the early versions of Tolkien's stories..." which immediately implies that The Silmarillion as published is somehow "wrong". It might not be what Tolkien was working towards, but it is what most of his readers will be familiar with.
Is there a way to word this section so that instead of being pejorative, the section distinguishes between how Melkor appears in the mainstream books and how Tolkien continued to develop the character in the ultimately unpublished versions of the story only now revealed in, for example, Morgoth's Ring? As it stands, it is a nonsense to have an article that says that he was "more powerful than all of the Valar combined" and yet in The Silmarilllion he quite obviously isn't that powerful, given the multiple times the Valar defeat him in that book.
Cheers, Neale Neale Monks 10:38, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
what in the name of durin happened to that picture of morgoth that someone took away? please post it back up
In my opinion I don't believe it was Tolkiens' intent to portray Melkor as weak, and "washed-up" Vala. It could be argued that Tolkien's emphasis was on the might, courage, and strength of Fingolfin.
I have a question, In the beginning of the Silmarillion, Tolkein mentions that Morgoth, 'Lost his ability to create, and was left only with the power to alter, and used that power rather to destroy or corrupt, and would twist all that he would to his own designs.' If this is true, then what species did he corrupt to create dragons? Tolkein says in the book that Morgoth 'created' dragons later in the book, but doesnt this conflict with what he said about Melkor/Morgoth earlier in the Silmarillion? BlueChicken 05:07, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
It does say that somewhere in the cannon. Look for references to trolls as a mockery of ents. The exact quote is "he could only mock, not make", Treeberd also alludes to this, and says that Morgoth missed the mark with ents as Trolls are inferior to ents in many ways. As for dragons they are twisted versions of "wyrms", but what those are previsely is not described - some soft of large intelligent lizard most likely. The first versions were cold drakes, later versions gained flight and (finally?) fire. Ggb667 14:42, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I dispute this "fact". Even Sam (hardly a scholar) knows that the crystal phial in which was caught the light of Eärendil's star was from a Silmaril rescued by Beren from Morgoth. There is a lengthly discussion where Sam and Frodo observe that they are part of the same story and legend and that these go on and on. Bilbo certainly was farmiliar with the lay of Luthien. One might argue that Bilbo didn't know this until he came to Rivendell, but this seems unlikely given the bredth and depth of his love for elvish culture, (even preceeding his first adventure!) which was not every unusual as we can see from the attitudes of the Hobbits towards the elves when they meet them while being pursued by the Ringwraiths when they are still in the Shire during the first leg of their flight to Rivendell. They certainly know about Mordor and Sauron, and the kings of the Shire and at least some of the history of those kings. I would say their knowledge is comperable to that of an average american's knowledge of Oliver Cromwell and William the Conqueror. They know the names, and have some vague idea they're associated with england, but maybe don't know what they did precisely or when. I'd like to replace "...and the Hobbits do not seem to have been aware of his existence." With "and the Hobbits have some vague knowledge of Mordor, Sauron and the history of the Silmarils. Ggb667 14:36, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Just a quick note-- I don't dispute that Hobbits had some vague knowledge of First Age events; but as far as Sam goes...Aragorn told the Hobbits the tale of Beren and Luthien in the Wild near Weathertop. They were also in Rivendell for over two months before they set out. Sam's comments don't necessarily reflect any previous knowledge of the history of the Silmarils. 169.253.4.21 ( talk) 19:27, 25 September 2008 (UTC) TexxasFinn
Melkor/Morgoth Bauglir → Morgoth — Reversion of an earlier move, which was not discussed. Original title was fine TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I see the guy's point but to tell you the truth if Big M bears resemblance to any Disney villain it's Maleficent as she was the first proper Disney villain and arguably the scariest, the most powerful and the most evil. The relationship between Morgoth and Sauron is similar to the relationship between Maleficent and the Evil Queen and at the present minute Sauron is indeed being compared to the Evil Queen on his discussion page.
Add * '''Support''' or * '''Oppose''' on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.
Add any additional comments:
17,700 hits for "Morgoth Bauglir",66,900 hits for "Morgoth",I'm not sure where I got 66,900 the first time 1,030,000 hits for "Morgoth", 674,000 hits for "Melkor".
I think Melkor wins. -- Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント ( talk) 23:47, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Updated: Morgoth clearly wins. Sorry for the error in google results. -- Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント ( talk) 00:11, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I moved this back to Morgoth and fixed all the redirects. Melkor would also be a reasonable name, but in addition to the Google results I think Tolkien clearly used 'Morgoth' more often than 'Melkor' and that is therefor the most commonly used name. -- CBD 11:09, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
how is morgoth a narcissist?. please tell me.
i think we should Add him to the fictional racists category because as it says in the article, morgoth is known to have betrayed his own servants: e.g.,after the noldor were defeated, he confined all men in his service to the lands of hithlum, forbidding them to enter beleriand, their promised reward. since melkor could never fully conquer men, he could really never trust them. it seems that, once victorious, he would have destroyed them just as destroyed them as he intended to destroy his enemies. you'd have to have a bigoted mind about men in order to do that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.94.255.194 ( talk) 01:35, 9 December 2006 (UTC).
did he have any plans for the dwarves?
Lots of the material here is very interesting, but utterly unsourced and not obviously a standard interpretation of Tolkien's work. The section "The Morgoth" about Morgoth's diminuation as a being because of his discord stands out particularly.
This is not the place to post your personal analysis of Morgoth, whatever it be. Interpretations must be referenced to a verifiable source. -- Saforrest 06:30, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Unless there are cogent reasons given for keeping it, I'm going to cut it. It adds no useful information to the article, and much of what's in it is patently absurd. (What is the point of a succession box for an "office" that had only one occupant? And "Dark Lord of Middle-earth"?) TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:19, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
There is some amazing art floating around the internet, by both well known and anonymous artists, depicting Melkor (Morgoth). Wouldn't it be cool to have one right at the top of the article?
For instance, thisis a really good painting.
Please, Please,Please, someone add a picture of morgoth or melkor to this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.94.255.193 ( talk) 19:31, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
has anybody considered adding this image of melkor to the article?: http://www.elfenomeno.com/info/ver/16145/titulo/Melkor-encerrado-en-Mandos. Also has anyone considered adding the image of morgoth by mikel janin to this article? one or the other of these images left of the appearance and characteristics section would be great. Thx. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.94.248.249 ( talk) 23:49, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
User:YLSS left the following note on my talk page instead of here for some reason:
I reverted (and re-reverted) because there's no reason not to include the etymological information you cut. This is never "un-Wikipedia"; Tolkien's main motivation for his legendarium was linguistic, so linguistic information is never improper. It was furthermore incorrect: "Belegur" was not "the Sindarin form" of Melkor. Melkor means "He who arises in might", as is explicitly said in Valaquenta and can be confirmed in the Etymologies, not "Great Death". TCC (talk) (contribs) 17:23, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
The section of Morgoth' weapon Grond in the List of Middle-earth weapons shortly describes the fight between Morgoth and Fingolfin; there it says: "Morgoth managed to kill the High King, but not without receiving seven wounds himself. (nine, if counting the foot and face)". This article, in contrast, states that Morgoth "was stabbed seven times, including in the foot, and was left with a permanent limp. That battle also saw Thorondor, the great Eagle, swoop down and scar Morgoth's face with his talons, a wound that also never healed.", giving the impression that there were 8 wounds overall.
As I do not know which article needs to be corrected (or enhanced to remove confusion), can somebody more knowledgeable please clarify...?
Dirk Stegemann 07:00, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I decided to create a point of reference for removing any irrelevant categories from the article, at the present moment and at any time they reappear in future. These are IMO improper:
For a historical reference, other categories had also been added to this poor article at different points (many got deleted completely): Category:Fictional characters who appear to be somewhat vain or arrogant, Category:Fictional misanthropes, Category:Fictional narcissists, Category:Literature antagonists, Category:Literature villains, Category:Fictional generals, Category:Fictional warlords, Category:Fictional megalomaniacs, Category:Dark Lords, Category:Chief Dark Lords, Category:Fictional magic users, Category:Fictional characters with the power to change their size, Category:Fictional characters with the power to manipulate darkness or shadow, Category:Fictional evil geniuses. Súrendil ( talk) 18:57, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Bravo! This category clutter is really aggravating, and really defeats the whole purpose of categories. I support all your removals. The "Fictional Twins" bit probably arises from the description of Melkor as the "brother" of Manwë — a reach at best. Elphion ( talk) 19:30, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with their disinclusion as well per above. -- Jupiter Optimus Maximus ( talk) 19:54, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
However I have for the time being re-added three of the above categories which I consider relevant. I have explained why on the history of the page. If anyone has any objections, please contact me. -- Jupiter Optimus Maximus ( talk) 16:39, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
No, this is the place for the discussion. Your arguments [for reference: He's dictator and emperor of Beleriand and he's a mass murderer because he killed thousands of people for no reason other than power. As for mage and demon, well duh!] don't answer the objections above. Elphion ( talk) 17:32, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Very well. Bravo on removing that vandalism by the way Elphion, I'd have undone it myself but I didn't notice it. Anyway, here's my take on the categories. He may have planned on disposing of the Orcs, Wolves, Balrogs, etc once of they were of no further use to him but he was for a time a dictator to them. As for emperor, he was the ruler of the Continent of Beleriand which was certainly large enough to class as an empire. With regards to Fictional mass murderers, he did indeed order the deaths of thousands of people who weren't doing him any harm simply because he wanted to ruler creation. This is quite unlike the innocent Iraqis (rest their souls) who have died in the Iraq War as people like George Bush aren't actually trying to kill them. They're trying to kill lunatics like the late Sadam Husseine to prevent them from killing more people. I admit Bush is a berk but I think he's a well-intentioned berk. On the subject of the Fictional mages category, a rather ingenious category of my own invention, he does use magic as a weapon and thus is effectively a mage. I thought it would be unfitting to label him a wizard. Finally as regards Fictional demons, he is a fallen angel which is basically what a demon is and he is also an allegory of Satan. I hope I've explained myself sufficiently. -- Jupiter Optimus Maximus ( talk) 18:50, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Well:
Of all your categories, "Demon" is the only one worth considering. But Tolkien avoids the word in his books, just as he resists calling the Valar "angels" -- precisely because both words carry too much freight from other contexts. He felt they were misleading, even inappropriate words to apply within his "sub-created" mythos. Elphion ( talk) 21:37, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Maybe so. Do you think we should include Fictional demons then? -- Jupiter Optimus Maximus ( talk) 23:47, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, I wouldn't, which I thought I had made clear. He's already categorized as a Vala -- and that most accurately reflects what Tolkien wrote about him. Like each of the other Valar, he has his own characteristics; you won't capture him completely by spinning categories around him, and you run the real risk of misleading people by applying categories that really aren't germane. Elphion ( talk) 15:47, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Hmm. You may be right. -- Jupiter Optimus Maximus ( talk) 16:34, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
The section "The Morgoth" has the appearance of original research or unverified claims.
Please add good cites to the article, rather than just discussing here, or remove this section from the article.
Thanks. --
201.17.36.246 (
talk)
18:00, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
I havent done any research on the topic, but it seems pretty obvious that Morgoth is an allusion to the Lucifer of Milton's Paradise Lost. Both were the greatest or the brightest who fell, resulting in a war, between angels in Paradise Lost and Valar in the Silmillarion, and both stories involve a prophecy foretelling a final battle, at the end of times. -- SDedalus91 ( talk) 01:27, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Either I'm crazy, or there are similarities to Zoroastrian concepts and morgoth. Angra Mainyu/Ahriman, Melkor/Morgoth have similar domains: Darkness, the first evil, cold, extremes, Have dragons(or dragon-like beings) at their disposal. Manwe/Ahura Mazda: Chief of good, air, light, mountains. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.94.248.249 ( talk) 23:56, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
This article states that "Morgoth" is a Sindarin name, but how could Fëanor have known Sindarin when he dubbed Melkor with this name? The Noldor hadn't met the Sindar at that point. Since Fëanor definitely wasn't speaking Sindarin, whatever word he actually used should probably be noted, along with a brief discussion of why "Morgoth" is Sindarin despite the fact that the Noldor were his chief foes (and it would also be good to know why the Sindarin "Morgoth" appears in the published Silmarillion -- was a Sindarin-educated loremaster supposed to be narrating?). Elsewhere on the web I found reference to the Noldorin(?) form of the name being "Moringotho", sourced to Morgoth's Ring, but I don't own the book myself and can't verify that. 98.28.19.62 ( talk) 09:26, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Tolkien refers to Morgoth as "The Devil" in this fragment of an interview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFcjBzP7H-E
See 3:50 onwards.
"... particularly after the exiles (Noldor) came back and conducted their war against the Devil...."
Note: I know there was a complete copy of this interview on youtube at one point, but I can no longer find it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GramlerGrindstone ( talk • contribs) 00:13, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
I removed the recently place "more citations" tag -- this article is already well sourced. It consists primarily of summaries of the character's treatment in Tolkien's works, and these do not typically require citations since the source is clear. If there are particular points that require citation, it would be far more helpful to flag those specifically with CN tags. -- Elphion ( talk) 05:58, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect
The Enemy (Middle-earth). The discussion will occur at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 August 14#The Enemy (Middle-earth) until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.
GimliDotNet (
talk)
20:54, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect
Angamando. The discussion will occur at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 August 15#Angamando until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.
Hog Farm
Bacon
01:57, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
I see no point in hiding that Morgoth does figure in LOTR. The fight over the Silmarils is recounted briefly by Aragorn in "A Knife in the Dark", after he sings the song of Tinǘviel. Aragorn does not use the form "Morgoth", but does use the English translation of the name, "The Great Enemy". It is, I believe, of interest that Tolkien had by the time of LOTR worked out enough of the mythology that it could be seen to underlie the events of LOTR. -- Elphion ( talk) 13:11, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
An editor is seeking to use the rare term "Ainu" for a member of the "Ainur". The plural term is moderately well-understood by Tolkien readers; "Ainu" is a rarely-used singular, and however correct it might be, it just makes the article harder to read, which is undesirable. I suggest we leave it as it is, which is correct in British English, and more readable to boot. There certainly should not be repeated edit-warring attempts to insert "Ainu" against consensus. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 14:26, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
I repeatedly stumble over the passage (emphasis is mine):
The expression "In earlier versions" implies that in later versions this was told differently. But no such information follows. While the next paragraph starts with "According to later texts", this pagraph deals with the Dagor Dagorath, an entirely different event.
Can anyone provide information on how the Enemy's first reign ended in later versions? If not, should we not rather remove this qualification? Str1977 (talk) 16:46, 13 September 2022 (UTC)