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Discussion Page for Morganatic marriage - all comments should be added to the very bottom of this page and remember to sign your posts by typing four tildes. Thank you!
What on earth is a morganaut? Is it something like an astronaut or cosmonaut? Seriously, this is not a word. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.214.52.191 ( talk) 14:16, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Is this the same principle as Victoria and Albert? I'm fairly sure he's pretty much Prince Consort material. -- 81.174.244.104 02:01, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Does the upcoming marriage of Charles, Prince of Wales and Camilla Parker Bowles count as a morganatic marriage?
This is pretty interesting but doesn't really belong in this article. Just one sentence pointing out that Charles and Camilla is not morgantic, although it looks a little like it.
"Marriages have never been considered morganatic in any part of the United Kingdom." So how, then, does one refer to the marriage between Catherine of Valois (Queen of England, consort of Henry V), and Owen Tudor? They married sometime between 1428 and 1432 in apparent defiance of the statute of 1428 which "forbade marriage to a queen without royal consent on pain of forfeiture of lands for life". They had three children Edmund, Jasper and Margaret. The marriage itself was recognised on Catherine's tombstone by her grandson, Henry VII. The children did not gain at all from their mother's estate or status which would appear to satisfy the definition in the opening paragraph of this article. In any event the marriage is described as morganatic in several reputable texts eg Dictionary National Biography (current), The making of the Tudor dynasty by R. A. Griffiths and R. S. Thomas (1985).-- Silver149 09:36, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
May I remind everyone that the United Kingdom only existed from the time of the accession of James 1st. Before that, there was England and Scotland. There is a lot about England here which should really be in a separate heading, or sub-heading. Henry VIII was King of England and Wales, not of the UK, for example. Charles I was king of the UK, by contrast. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 20.133.0.13 ( talk) 15:14, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
Ludwig II, as the husband of Prince Alexander's mother, was the legal father of Prince Alexander, and nobody else was ever acknowledged to be his biological father (although obviously there were rumors). The issue of Prince Alexander's parentage is a secondary one having nothing to do with this article, and it is, in fact, not incorrect to call Alexander Ludwig's son. Note that at Prince Alexander of Hesse and by Rhine, the intro simply calls him the son of Ludwig II, although the questionableness of this, biologically speaking, is discussed later. At any rate, point is, he's the legal son of Ludwig II, and that's all that matters for purposes of genealogy. Everything else is speculation, and not worth discussing in an article which has nothing to do with the subject of Prince Alexander's parentage, and only with his marriage. john k 19:54, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Someone made an assertion about Diana Wales nee Spencer, which I believe is factually incorrect.
In the systems of Nobility of some nations every child of a noble is a noble. This is not the case in the British system. At the time of the French revolution fully 4% of the French population is noble. Only one individual holds a title at a time. Their are five levels in the British system. Duke at the top rung, Barons on the bottom rung. The eldest son of a Duke, and the next level or two down, is generally addressed by the secondary title of the parent. But they are still a commoner, until the parent dies. They can, for instance, run for a seat in the " House of Commons.
IIUC, the honourary titles the children get don't make them nobles. Geo Swan ( talk) 07:37, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I really want to remove this entire section on grounds of irrelevance. Marrying in contravention of the Act means the marriage isn't legal - which is completely different to a Morganatic marriage (which is legally recognised). Currently, a large section of this article is handed over the the UK, a country which has never had Morganatic marraige anyway. I think we could then slim the UK section down to 4 paragraphs:
Indisciplined ( talk) 17:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
What about (pre-Union) Scotland? Was there ever any such notion there? — Ashley Y 09:59, Jan 16, 2004 (UTC)
Surely she was born into Scottish nobility. Her wikipedia article says so. I've removed that section. -- Mongreilf ( talk) 11:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree that this section is confusing. It may be technically true that the children of peers are "commoners", but I think that it is actually very misleading in this context for people unfamiliar with the topic) to say that Diana and the late Queen Mother were born commoners without mentioning that they were the daughters of noble families. What matters in the context of a royal marriage is not whether a young woman herself has a title but rather her family background. There's a long standing tradition for marriage between British royals and the children of the British aristocracy and no one considered these marriages controversial at the time. I think the article should say something along the lines of "they were technically commoners although they were from artistocratic families" Ctamigi ( talk) 14:49, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
It's contradictory to say in one part of the article (accurately) that the style HRH is in the gift of the sovereign but to say, with regard to Camilla, that she is legally entitled to the "title" HRH The Princess of Wales. Besides which, HRH is a style, not a title. Whether she's legally entitled to or whether she "would ordinarily use" the title Princess of Wales I'm not sure--British legislation or authorities on the royal family would have to be consulted--but if the sentence about legal entitlement is retained, at least a distinction should be made between the style HRH and the title Princess of Wales. Wbkelley ( talk) 20:17, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Is it worth mentioning John of Gaunt's second marriage as having some bearing on the issue of whether there has ever been morganatic marriage in England? PatGallacher ( talk) 19:59, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
The section on Denmark does not discuss morganatic marriage, it discusses male primogeniture. 121.73.7.84 ( talk) 12:24, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
Several references to "Bradford" in the footnotes, but no full citation to a work by an author of that name. Also, in the section regarding Edward's abdication, there is a sentence fragment which seems to be intended to describe de Valera's reaction to the options presented to the Commonwealth states, but it only states de Valera's name and one of the incomplete references. Appears that the paragraph was lifted whole from another article without checked to see if the references were conveyed correctly. Tloc ( talk) 05:12, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
There is a note in the lede about the marriage being morganatic based on the woman's profession. I can't find any good source on that. It seems odd because a woman of status likely would not have had a profession, and if she was not of a higher class, then the profession would be irrelevant as it would her class that prevented the marriage from being condoned. Does anyone have a further explanation of this? Just seems illogical.
Shouldn't she be mentioned as her family are obvious parvenus, and not of noble lineage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.169.27.161 ( talk) 12:10, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
A substantial number of edits were reverted yesterday because of allegations which were inaccurate, misleading or disputed, and therefore needed to be substantiated by reliable sources, none of which were added. The deleted material has been restored on the grounds that "the whole article is very thinly sourced", although it has no fewer than 57 footnotes! Moreover the fact that other stuff exists is not grounds for restoring challenged material without accompanying citations. Among the unsubstantiated claims added: 1. that those who did not marry suitably lost their dynastic rights, whereas it is usually the wife and children but not the dynast who forfeits status in a morganatic marriage. 2. that Salic law (women can never inherit the throne) was prevalent in countries where morganaticism was practiced, whereas in fact semi-Salic primogeniture (meaning women do inherit the throne when a family's males die out: that's how Maria Theresa of Austria became ruler of the Habsburg realms) was much more common than Salic law. 3. that morganatic marriage was largely confined to a few areas of Europe (Denmark, Germany, Russia) while being entirely absent in England, Scotland and France: In fact, until the 20th century Monaco was the only Western monarchy founded before the 19th century in which no distinction in official status and rights was ever imposed on unsuitable wives of sovereigns or dynasts. As for England and Scotland, they were in personal union from 1601, and it is only after the 1500s that morganaticism became a common dynastic solution for unsuitable marriages in Europe, so this is both irrelevant and misleading. As for lack of morganaticism in England and France, agreed that the word was not applied to arrangements wherein a royal's unsuitable wife and children were not allowed to share his status or inheritance, but in the face of the marriages of Louis XIV and Madame de Maintenon and of HRH The Prince Edward, Duke of Windsor and Her Grace the Duchess of Windsor, it is debatable whether the "concept" of morganatic marriage was unknown to France and Britain. These POVs were added to the article, but have been challenged for lack of proper sourcing. Wikipedia's Verifiability policy stipulates that the burden of proof for material lies with those who add it, " Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed". FactStraight ( talk) 20:24, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
I also noticed the lack of a reading list for books etc that are referred to. Searching through the history for possible accidental/intentional vandalism I found (so far) the following:
It seems that banned User:Will_Beback removed several references (on October 25, 2011, all to do with Velde) that are in English & still valid-the first few have been replaced but by refs to books in French and non-linked. Perhaps someone with more knowledge of the subject than me could see to restoring the deleted refs if deemed necessary?-- DadaNeem ( talk) 01:20, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
What if we substitute "German-speaking Europe" with "HRE and successors"? -- YOMAL SIDOROFF-BIARMSKII ( talk) 22:02, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
"Morganatic marriage is not, and has not been, possible in jurisdictions that do not permit restrictive encumbrances with regard to the marriage contract, as it is an agreement containing a pre-emptive limitation to the inheritance and property rights of the spouse and the children."
It's hard to tell which countries, eras, or levels of practice are covered by this broad statement. Are we still talking about noble titles, or switched to civil law? Are we in Southe America? Framing is missing. 67.170.236.50 ( talk) 13:55, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
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Discussion Page for Morganatic marriage - all comments should be added to the very bottom of this page and remember to sign your posts by typing four tildes. Thank you!
What on earth is a morganaut? Is it something like an astronaut or cosmonaut? Seriously, this is not a word. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.214.52.191 ( talk) 14:16, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Is this the same principle as Victoria and Albert? I'm fairly sure he's pretty much Prince Consort material. -- 81.174.244.104 02:01, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Does the upcoming marriage of Charles, Prince of Wales and Camilla Parker Bowles count as a morganatic marriage?
This is pretty interesting but doesn't really belong in this article. Just one sentence pointing out that Charles and Camilla is not morgantic, although it looks a little like it.
"Marriages have never been considered morganatic in any part of the United Kingdom." So how, then, does one refer to the marriage between Catherine of Valois (Queen of England, consort of Henry V), and Owen Tudor? They married sometime between 1428 and 1432 in apparent defiance of the statute of 1428 which "forbade marriage to a queen without royal consent on pain of forfeiture of lands for life". They had three children Edmund, Jasper and Margaret. The marriage itself was recognised on Catherine's tombstone by her grandson, Henry VII. The children did not gain at all from their mother's estate or status which would appear to satisfy the definition in the opening paragraph of this article. In any event the marriage is described as morganatic in several reputable texts eg Dictionary National Biography (current), The making of the Tudor dynasty by R. A. Griffiths and R. S. Thomas (1985).-- Silver149 09:36, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
May I remind everyone that the United Kingdom only existed from the time of the accession of James 1st. Before that, there was England and Scotland. There is a lot about England here which should really be in a separate heading, or sub-heading. Henry VIII was King of England and Wales, not of the UK, for example. Charles I was king of the UK, by contrast. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 20.133.0.13 ( talk) 15:14, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
Ludwig II, as the husband of Prince Alexander's mother, was the legal father of Prince Alexander, and nobody else was ever acknowledged to be his biological father (although obviously there were rumors). The issue of Prince Alexander's parentage is a secondary one having nothing to do with this article, and it is, in fact, not incorrect to call Alexander Ludwig's son. Note that at Prince Alexander of Hesse and by Rhine, the intro simply calls him the son of Ludwig II, although the questionableness of this, biologically speaking, is discussed later. At any rate, point is, he's the legal son of Ludwig II, and that's all that matters for purposes of genealogy. Everything else is speculation, and not worth discussing in an article which has nothing to do with the subject of Prince Alexander's parentage, and only with his marriage. john k 19:54, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Someone made an assertion about Diana Wales nee Spencer, which I believe is factually incorrect.
In the systems of Nobility of some nations every child of a noble is a noble. This is not the case in the British system. At the time of the French revolution fully 4% of the French population is noble. Only one individual holds a title at a time. Their are five levels in the British system. Duke at the top rung, Barons on the bottom rung. The eldest son of a Duke, and the next level or two down, is generally addressed by the secondary title of the parent. But they are still a commoner, until the parent dies. They can, for instance, run for a seat in the " House of Commons.
IIUC, the honourary titles the children get don't make them nobles. Geo Swan ( talk) 07:37, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I really want to remove this entire section on grounds of irrelevance. Marrying in contravention of the Act means the marriage isn't legal - which is completely different to a Morganatic marriage (which is legally recognised). Currently, a large section of this article is handed over the the UK, a country which has never had Morganatic marraige anyway. I think we could then slim the UK section down to 4 paragraphs:
Indisciplined ( talk) 17:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
What about (pre-Union) Scotland? Was there ever any such notion there? — Ashley Y 09:59, Jan 16, 2004 (UTC)
Surely she was born into Scottish nobility. Her wikipedia article says so. I've removed that section. -- Mongreilf ( talk) 11:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree that this section is confusing. It may be technically true that the children of peers are "commoners", but I think that it is actually very misleading in this context for people unfamiliar with the topic) to say that Diana and the late Queen Mother were born commoners without mentioning that they were the daughters of noble families. What matters in the context of a royal marriage is not whether a young woman herself has a title but rather her family background. There's a long standing tradition for marriage between British royals and the children of the British aristocracy and no one considered these marriages controversial at the time. I think the article should say something along the lines of "they were technically commoners although they were from artistocratic families" Ctamigi ( talk) 14:49, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
It's contradictory to say in one part of the article (accurately) that the style HRH is in the gift of the sovereign but to say, with regard to Camilla, that she is legally entitled to the "title" HRH The Princess of Wales. Besides which, HRH is a style, not a title. Whether she's legally entitled to or whether she "would ordinarily use" the title Princess of Wales I'm not sure--British legislation or authorities on the royal family would have to be consulted--but if the sentence about legal entitlement is retained, at least a distinction should be made between the style HRH and the title Princess of Wales. Wbkelley ( talk) 20:17, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Is it worth mentioning John of Gaunt's second marriage as having some bearing on the issue of whether there has ever been morganatic marriage in England? PatGallacher ( talk) 19:59, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
The section on Denmark does not discuss morganatic marriage, it discusses male primogeniture. 121.73.7.84 ( talk) 12:24, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
Several references to "Bradford" in the footnotes, but no full citation to a work by an author of that name. Also, in the section regarding Edward's abdication, there is a sentence fragment which seems to be intended to describe de Valera's reaction to the options presented to the Commonwealth states, but it only states de Valera's name and one of the incomplete references. Appears that the paragraph was lifted whole from another article without checked to see if the references were conveyed correctly. Tloc ( talk) 05:12, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
There is a note in the lede about the marriage being morganatic based on the woman's profession. I can't find any good source on that. It seems odd because a woman of status likely would not have had a profession, and if she was not of a higher class, then the profession would be irrelevant as it would her class that prevented the marriage from being condoned. Does anyone have a further explanation of this? Just seems illogical.
Shouldn't she be mentioned as her family are obvious parvenus, and not of noble lineage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.169.27.161 ( talk) 12:10, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
A substantial number of edits were reverted yesterday because of allegations which were inaccurate, misleading or disputed, and therefore needed to be substantiated by reliable sources, none of which were added. The deleted material has been restored on the grounds that "the whole article is very thinly sourced", although it has no fewer than 57 footnotes! Moreover the fact that other stuff exists is not grounds for restoring challenged material without accompanying citations. Among the unsubstantiated claims added: 1. that those who did not marry suitably lost their dynastic rights, whereas it is usually the wife and children but not the dynast who forfeits status in a morganatic marriage. 2. that Salic law (women can never inherit the throne) was prevalent in countries where morganaticism was practiced, whereas in fact semi-Salic primogeniture (meaning women do inherit the throne when a family's males die out: that's how Maria Theresa of Austria became ruler of the Habsburg realms) was much more common than Salic law. 3. that morganatic marriage was largely confined to a few areas of Europe (Denmark, Germany, Russia) while being entirely absent in England, Scotland and France: In fact, until the 20th century Monaco was the only Western monarchy founded before the 19th century in which no distinction in official status and rights was ever imposed on unsuitable wives of sovereigns or dynasts. As for England and Scotland, they were in personal union from 1601, and it is only after the 1500s that morganaticism became a common dynastic solution for unsuitable marriages in Europe, so this is both irrelevant and misleading. As for lack of morganaticism in England and France, agreed that the word was not applied to arrangements wherein a royal's unsuitable wife and children were not allowed to share his status or inheritance, but in the face of the marriages of Louis XIV and Madame de Maintenon and of HRH The Prince Edward, Duke of Windsor and Her Grace the Duchess of Windsor, it is debatable whether the "concept" of morganatic marriage was unknown to France and Britain. These POVs were added to the article, but have been challenged for lack of proper sourcing. Wikipedia's Verifiability policy stipulates that the burden of proof for material lies with those who add it, " Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed". FactStraight ( talk) 20:24, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
I also noticed the lack of a reading list for books etc that are referred to. Searching through the history for possible accidental/intentional vandalism I found (so far) the following:
It seems that banned User:Will_Beback removed several references (on October 25, 2011, all to do with Velde) that are in English & still valid-the first few have been replaced but by refs to books in French and non-linked. Perhaps someone with more knowledge of the subject than me could see to restoring the deleted refs if deemed necessary?-- DadaNeem ( talk) 01:20, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
What if we substitute "German-speaking Europe" with "HRE and successors"? -- YOMAL SIDOROFF-BIARMSKII ( talk) 22:02, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
"Morganatic marriage is not, and has not been, possible in jurisdictions that do not permit restrictive encumbrances with regard to the marriage contract, as it is an agreement containing a pre-emptive limitation to the inheritance and property rights of the spouse and the children."
It's hard to tell which countries, eras, or levels of practice are covered by this broad statement. Are we still talking about noble titles, or switched to civil law? Are we in Southe America? Framing is missing. 67.170.236.50 ( talk) 13:55, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
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