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I was well aware of this but just found the documentary where there was a Paleopathology on Denia Spain. Time Team based on this we can trace the actual papers of the archaeologist in the doc. It is important because a lot of dispute occurred because Van Sertima was considered Pseudo-History. -- Inayity ( talk) 17:59, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
I think Inayity is frustrated here because they think they have found a RS that happens to back up something Van Sertima wrote, and all they get is a chorus of "Van Sertima is not a RS". Inayity knows that, that's why they are pleased to find a source that isn't Van Sertima! Pinkbeast ( talk) 10:20, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
I have to say I am mystified by the above dispute. My understanding is that a sub-Saharan element in the population of al-Andalus derived from the trade and other cultural connections between sub-Saharan Africa and the Maghreb. Slave traffic, both in the literal sense and in the form of 'slave soldiers' similar to the Mamluq of Egypt and Janissaries in Ottoman service, emphasised that geographical connection.
The use of the term 'Moor'in relation to the Muslim presence in the Peninsula seems have gained increased currency with the intervention by the Moroccan Almoravids in Iberian affairs following the fall of the Ummayad Caliphate in the early C11th and the subsequent fitna. The Almoravids were Sanhaja Berbers in origin but the presence of black African soldiery in Almoravid armies and their increased use by the Almohads who displanted them, led to the association of the term 'Moorish'(Castilian: moro; Latin: mauri) with people of sub-Saharan African aspect. That association gave an ambiguity to the term in English which has lasted through Shakespeare, and it would seem, to the present, viz. heraldic and MSS images of the high Middle ages. It's worth noting, however, that images of both 'Moors' and 'Saracens' regularly depicted a dark-skinned man with wooly hair, evidently as a conflated shorthand image of the exotic and menacing 'other' (viz. Morris Dancers in black face, but that's another story).
Is there any real controversy about this?
Bearing in mind that the most common term in English and Latin was 'Saracen,' it would be intersting to know when the term 'Moor' first emerged in English- which usage obviously lies at the root of this article. Moro in Castilian (Latin: Mauri) was established early. I would have to check just when.
In Spain today, amongst older people at least, moro has particular resonance with the Civil War when Moroccan troops in Franco's army were associated with atrocities in former Republican areas that they occupied and a grim, racist mythology was embraced by both sides. It is still used despectively in reference to natives of Morocco today and seems to carry the weight of a term like 'darky' (the most acceptable equivalent I can think of). Use in reference to the historic Muslim presence in the Peninsula is discouraged, with 'Musulman' or 'Arabe' the preferred term.
JF42 ( talk) 14:52, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
Pages like this is the reason why I simply refuse not to donate to wikipedia's (semi-racist) platform. The Moors looked NOTHING like these pictures. These pictures are a part of a revisionist historical attempt to bleach out the first inhabitants and builders of civilization much like the attempts to make the original peoples of Egypt, something other than who they truly are.
The Moors were a dark-skinned woolly haired people, falsely called "black" today. I simply cannot believe that literary racism still exists today. There are SO MANY REFERENCES and SOURCES that I can post up based on contemporaneous accounts, but for what? It is not like the pictures will be changed. But do know this, over this year, that will be DRASTIC changes made to this page from well sourced works. Unbelievable...
See also is a part of wikipedia linking for related topics. How they are related is not based on anyone's POV. So if the Moorish Science Temple of America is a cult, that fact cannot disqualify them as a see also, when Moorish temple make direct connections to this topic of Moors. True of false? Well I can argue that for Hebrews vs Modern Jews -- If we have a problem with religious claims as invalid. But per RS there is a connection and that is all that matters. The Moorish Temple is connected to this topic, and that is a real group, they claim Moorish ancestry and "religion" and culture that qualifies as a See Also. Makes no difference if that might conflict with someone's person beliefs. And many RS state the connection, Nance, Susan. (2002) "Mystery of the Moorish Science Temple: Southern Blacks and American Alternative Spirituality in 1920s Chicago", Religion and American Culture 12, no. 2 (Summer): 123–166, accessed 29 Aug 2009. -- Inayity ( talk) 07:22, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
Maybe i am wrong but the changes do not seem as good as what we had before. Please discuss. Also my history gets hazy when I leave a topic for a while but Tariq ibn Ziyad was Berber--Not Arab. Hence not an Arab conquest. -- Inayity ( talk) 15:52, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
Alfonso X (1221-1284 AD), king of Castile said: "All of the Moorish soldiers were dressed with silk and black wool that had been forcibily acquired. Their faces were black like pitch and the most handsome of them were black as a cooking pan." (Cantigas of Santa Maria)
The Cantigas of Santa Maria were a collection of 420 poems that were partially written by Alfonso X and often attributed to him. This isn't the only person who bare witness to black Moors.
Procopius of Ceasarea (500-560 AD), a Bynzantine scholar who wrote in Greek, said in his History of the Wars: "beyond that there are men not black-skinned like the Moors" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 14:04, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
Moor (n.) Look up Moor at Dictionary.com "North African, Berber," late 14c., from Old French More, from Medieval Latin Morus, from Latin Maurus "inhabitant of Mauritania" (northwest Africa, a region now corresponding to northern Algeria and Morocco), from Greek Mauros, perhaps a native name, or else cognate with mauros "black" (but this adjective only appears in late Greek and may as well be from the people's name as the reverse). Being a dark people in relation to Europeans, their name in the Middle Ages was a synonym for "Negro;" later (16c.-17c.) used indiscriminately of Muslims (Persians, Arabs, etc.) but especially those in India.
A European scholar sympathetic to the Spaniards remembered the conquest in this way: a. [T]he reins of their (Moors) horses were as fire, their faces black as pitch, their eyes shone like burning candles, their horses were swift as leopards and the riders fiercer than a wolf in a sheepfold at night . . . The noble Goths [the German rulers of Spain to whom Roderick belonged] were broken in an hour, quicker than tongue can tell. Oh luckless Spain! [i] [i] Quoted in Edward Scobie, The Moors and Portugal's Global Expansion, in Golden Age of the Moor, ed Ivan Van Sertima, US, Transaction Publishers, 1992, p.336
qoute " When the topic of the Moorish influence in Europe is being discussed, one of the first questions that arises is, what race were they? As early as the Middle Ages, “Moors were commonly viewed as being mostly black or very swarthy, and hence the word is often used for negro,” according to the Oxford English Dictionary. Author and historian Chancellor Williams said “the original Moors, like the original Egyptians, were black Africans.” The 16th century English playwright William Shakespeare used the word Moor as a synonym for African. His contemporary Christopher Marlowe also used African and Moor interchangeably. Arab writers further buttress the black identity of the Moors. The powerful Moorish Emperor Yusuf ben-Tachfin is described by an Arab chronicler as “a brown man with wooly hair.” Black soldiers, specifically identified as Moors, were actively recruited by Rome, and served in Britain, France, Switzerland, Austria, Hungary, Poland, and Romania. St. Maurice, patron saint of medieval Europe, was only one of many black soldiers and officers under the employ of the Roman Empire. Although generations of Spanish rulers have tried to expunge this era from the historical record, recent archeology and scholarship now shed fresh light on the Moors who flourished in Al-Andalus for more than 700 years – from 711 AD until 1492. The Moorish advances in mathematics, astronomy, art, and agriculture helped propel Europe out of the Dark Ages and into the Renaissance."
The best books I can recommend are the following -The Golden Age of the Moors by Ivan Van Sertima; - Hidden Colors by David Banners; -Nature knows no color line by J A Rogers; — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
70.75.93.245 (
talk) 00:22, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=moor
http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/True_Negros/The_True_Negro_2a.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 00:40, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
the moors were black africans not arabs!!! http://www.topix.com/forum/afam/TBRISMN14PV9QJB3Q
Black Moors in Scotland http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/blackhistory/early_times/moors.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 00:18, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
Old Dictionaries Define The MOORS Race! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YTZvGoCoxQ
Mon 14 Jan 2013 by abagond https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/01/14/sub-saharan-africa/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 10:15, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Here is Germany wiki on Moors
In Germany, the word Moor is spelled as Mohr or Mohren — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 20:29, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
this is in German wiki on moors Mohr https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohr
This a passage on how the Moors described European when they ruled in Europe. It says it all How the Moors described their European foes: Sa-id of Andalusia wrote the following of his White Iberian opponents: They “are nearer animals than men ... They are by nature unthinking and their manners crude. Their bellies protrude; THEIR COLOR IS WHITE and their hair is long. In sharpness and delicacy of spirit and in intellectual perspicacity, they are nil. Ignorance, lack of reasoning power and boorishness are common among them.”(Kitab Tabakat al Umaxn (Blachere K. p. 36. 1935). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 06:51, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
MOOR meant negro or black a moor in a English dictionary (1768) by Samuel Johnson. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 06:53, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
The word moor predates Islam and the Islamic Moorish Empire ruled by Arabs and their Berber allies by thousands of years. That is why there is a long list of Moorish Saints aka Holy Moors who lived long before the advent of Islam or even after the defeat of Muslim Moors Why were they called Moors, if the Moors were Muslim conquerors? Saint Zeno, the Moor, Patron Saint of Veronna, Italy Saint Victor, the Moor Saint Corbineus, the Moor Saint Gregorius, the Moor of Cologne Saint Maurice, the Patron Saint of the Holy Roman Empire, a black man from Upper Egypt, the Commander of the Theban Legion Saint Benedict, the Moor of Palermo, who lived after the defeat of Muslim Moors — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 06:59, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
Dieu, l'homme et la parole, ou La langue primitive par J. Azaïs, père (1778-1856) MAURE, nom d'un peuple dont la peau est noire; Moor: the name of a people whose skin is black. morou languedocien, mourou provençal, maurus lalin, mor, moren langue romane, morien vieux français, moro catalan, moro espagnol, mouro portugais, moro italien, maour, mauryan bas-breton, mohr allemand, moor anglais, moor hollandais, mohr danois, mor suédois, mour, maar, brûler, hébreu. Le More est noir, c'est-à dire de la couleur d'une chose brûlée. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 12:55, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
I wonder why Europeans wanted to immortalize the Moors as Black Africans in countless of expressions and at least DOZENS of traditions. Above all, Europeans created dishes and recipts they named moor or its many derivatives in French, in German, in Austrian etc. In every dish or recipe, they use chocolate or ingredient of a black or dark brown color 1) Moors and Christians: black beans and white rice 2) Moricaud (French) fondant au chocolat et aux amandes — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 13:54, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
There were Moors LONG BEFORE there were any Muslims or Arab conquerors in North Africa. The word moor was even used for Christians of African origin, like Saint Maurice of Egypt or Saint Benedict the Moor. The word moor is derived from the Latin Maurus and the Greek mauros. It became mooriaan in Dutch It became maure or mauricaud in French It became mohr or mohren in German It became moor in English It became murzyn in Polish The term Moor was used across ancient and medieval Europe for people with darker skin color, historically for Ethiopians and Berbers and later generalized for ALL AFRICANS. It was not until the 16th century the word acquired the exclusive Mohr in German and in other European languages (Maure in French or Moro in Spanish) meaning of a man with black skin, while the Moor was henceforth referred to as such. Carlton Coon, an American anthropologist on the Berbers:“The association of dark skin with the name of 'Moors' resulted eventually in the same term being applied to Negrids." The Moors are immortalized as Black Africans in DOZENS of traditions, countless of expressions, a large number of works of arts and even dishes and recipes. Traditions 1) The Moor's head: the head of a Black man or woman, used as a heraldic symbol. Many of the heads are crowned and can be found on blazons of cities, dioceses and noble families; 2) The MORETTI: artistic representations of BLACK AFRICANS (sculpture, jewels etc.; 3) The MORCIC: a medieval jewel depicting a BLACK AFRICAN MAN dressed in oriental style; 4) The MOORS and Christians dish: BLACK beans and white rice 5) The MORESCA: a weapon dance during which the BLACK KING MORO, along with his black army, is challenged and defeated in a love triangle; 6) The MORENKOP or MOORHEAD: a stone head of a MOOR, or black skinned man, that hung above many pharmacies and pubs 7) The MOHRENKOPF (Moor's Head):a chocolate-coated marshmallow treat 8) The blackfaced King of the MOORS during Christmas celebrations in Finland 9) The blackfaced Peter, the MOORISH servant of Santa Claus during Christmas celebrations in Holland and Belgium. Belgians and Dutch blacken their face and wear Afro-wigs and red lipstick. 10) The MORRIS dance: popular folklore dance in Britain during Britons blackened their faces to better represent the original Moorish dancers and elect a King Coffee 11) The MOOR’s head color: dark brown used in decorative arts 12) The MOOR puppet: a blackfaced puppet representing the Moors. The blackfaced Moor puppet is seen onstage playing with a coconut, his movements are ape like. 12) The villainous MOOR: a very common black character played across Europe Expressions Black as Moor Blackface Moor Blacking up as a Moor Dishes and recipes In every dish or recipe, they use chocolate or ingredient of a black or dark brown colo — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
70.75.93.245 (
talk) 15:40, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
qoute" Moor (Period)
The “Moor” or “blackamoor” is a Negroid human, unbearded and with nappy hair. If he wears headgear (a torse, a kerchief, &c), it is explicitly blazoned. When “proper”, he is dark brown with black hair. Moors and Mooresses are frequently found, especially for canting purposes, as in the arms of Mordeysen, 1605 [Siebmacher 160].
http://mistholme.com/dictionary/human-figure/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 17:24, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
The "Moors" of West Africa and the Beginnings of the Portuguese Slave Trade. Kenneth Baxter Wolf. Pomona College. http://scholarship.claremont.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1037&context=pomona_fac_pub
Moors Start Slavery https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPBgwxlabzA — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 10:21, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
Jose Piementa Bey - The Moorish Legacy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8NGzBlWEWY — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 16:15, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
In Polish language there is a word "Murzyn" which is the most popular word to describe a Black person. It is currently translated into English as "Negro" but it didnt have any negative connotations until the second half of 20th century, however it's still consrdered neutral by most Polish people. This word - Murzyn - comes from the word "Moor". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 12:03, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
The lead is highly repetitive and disorganized. Both the invasion and usage of the term are covered twice in separate paragraphs. I'm blending those paragraphs together into a more logical and coherent narrative. Beyond that, the rest of the article also had a number of redundant parts. It looks as though I removed a lot of content, but I mostly combined repetitive parts and removed a lot of overlink. Laszlo Panaflex ( talk) 00:35, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
The moors, my people -the Maghrebin, are priparily made of Lybian stock (also called berber) and of a minority of middle easter (phoenician speaking and later arabic speaking semits) and from other minorities of europeans (romamns greeks and vandals).
1) Why on earth Europeans passed down DOZENS of traditions remembering the Moors as Black Africans like the following:
a) the Moor's head b) the Morcic c) the Moresca d) the Moors and Christians dish e) the Moorish servant of Santa Claus, Black Peter f) the Morris dance g) the blackface King of the Moor
a) Saint Benedict, the Moor; b) Saint Maurice from Upper Egypt; c) Johannes Maurus, the Vizir of Sicily d) Gannibal, the Moor of Peter the Great
So one calling a "moor" white is an oxymoron. It's like saying a dark-skinned white person. And that would make no sense.
moros y cristianos recipe the dish named after " moors and Christians" with black beans for the Moors and white rice for the Christians". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 15:53, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Romans and Greeks = just tanned skin or what you called olive skin. Olives look more like black people black and brown and I never seen a green man in my life.
http://www.kymatasound.com/images/Olives_detail.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 13:35, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
Why was st maruice called a moor when he was not a muslim nor a berber? Why was st augustine called a moor when he was not a muslim nor a berber? Why was de medici called a moor when he was not a mulsim nor a berber? St. Isidore of Seville, who was born in 560 AD and died in April 636 AD, wrote that Maurus means "black" in Greek. In the late 1400s, the Italian Roberto di San Severino in his writings clearly distinguishes between Moors and Arabs.1-According to Ali Ibn Allah, moorish king, AL Mansur was decsribed as having a mother who was a pure negro adn his father was part black part arabic. 2-Yusef Taschiffin was desrcribed as a black man, thin build, hook noes and wooly hair. He was from west africa. 3-The 4 moorish kings of aragon were described as 3 being mulato and the 4th one a pure negro by the name of mulai mahummed. Why is there not one early mideast moorish character in early literature? othello aaron the moor nagaymath turquio merchant of vienece song or roland
European Literature Confirms BLACK MOORS! 📕 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Kzb8ykDo2s — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 01:50, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
1) Why on earth Europeans passed down DOZENS of traditions remembering the Moors as Black Africans like the following: a) the Moor's head b) the Morcic c) the Moresca d) the Moors and Christians dish e) the Moorish servant of Santa Claus, Black Peter f) the Morris dance g) the blackface King of the Moor h) the Villainous Moor i) the puppet Moor j) the Moorehead on pharmacies and pubs; k) Moors and Christians festivals l) the White pieces (the Christians) vs the Black pieces (the Moors) of the Chess board m) the Moretti.2) Why on earth Europeans have coined the following expressions describing the Moors as Black Africans. a) Black as a Moor, hence, blackamoor b) the Black Madonna aka La Madonna Mora c) Give me Moor (a very dark purple nail polish) d) Moor's head cheese (with black crust), moor's head crystals (with black tips), moor's head pigeon (with a black head)3) Why on earth Europeans with no history of Black slavery or black colonies still use the word moor or its derivatives for Black Africans instead of negro. The Polish used Murzyn; the Greeks, mavros for Black Africans?4) Why on earth artists like Rubbens , Rembrandt or authors like Shakespeare used the word Moor in their works for Black Africans and not negro?5) Why on earth the Spaniards came up with the expression blue blood if the Moors were from the same Caucasian or Eurasian family? Spaniards knew the difference between their skin, the dark brown skin of the Moors and the dark skin of their mixed offspring with the Moors, called Moriscos.Sangre azul, blue blood, was a euphemism for being a white man who can hold up his pale or light skin showing blue veins, untainted by Moorish blood. Blue veins clearly appear under light or pale skin.6) Why on earth Black Africans with no connection AT ALL with Islam or Northwestern Africa were called Moors by ancient and medieval Europeans like the following people? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 14:45, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
Why is there not one early mideast moorish character in early literature? othello aaron the moor nagaymath turquio merchant of vienece song or roland — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 02:00, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
Moors in Europe 5: Rise of the Dark Knights
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6pfTykKh0Q
THE GERMANIC MOORS OF THE BLACK REICH https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xewvuZJoxTg
Moors in Europe 4: Who was that Head-Banded Man? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7FnTGU0-3A — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 15:16, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
'Moors' from Oxford Islamic Studies Online http://bridgingcultures.neh.gov/muslimjourneys/items/show/218
Ancient History Sourcebook: Accounts of Ancient Mauretania, c. 430 BCE- 550 CE http://bridgingcultures.neh.gov/muslimjourneys/items/show/218
Mauretania http://bridgingcultures.neh.gov/muslimjourneys/items/show/218 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 01:30, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
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I think I've put back everything that went missing in the recent round of drivebys.
However, XXGfHXx has shuffled the ordering of Arabs, Berbers, Muslim Europeans, and sub-Saharan Africans quite extensively with no explanation in edit summaries. May I ask why? Pinkbeast ( talk) 15:44, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
We should probably cover the presence of Moors in Europe outside of Spain and Italy, especially before European involvement in the African slave trade (mid-1600s). Shakespeare's Othello, via Cinthio's "Un Capitano Moro", may be based on real events of the early 1500s in Venice, and seemed not too exotic a subject for London's Elizabethan audience. Morris dancing is apparently ultimately traceable to Moors in the 1400s, in Germany and the Low Countries by way of the Mediterranean states. Readers are apt to wonder whether the frequent appearance of "Moorish" characters in British quasi-historical fiction is plausible (e.g. Camelot (2011 TV series, set in the 500s, and presumably representing descendants of Africans in the Roman army), Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves (1991 film, set in the late 1100s), and The Bastard Executioner (2015 TV series, set in the early 1300s), both of the latter featuring travelling survivors of the Third Crusade. Jews were certainly well-established for real (and being treated punitively) in England by the time of Edward I in the 1200s, but I don't know about other Eastern, Middle Eastern or North African groups. Roma were in Germany and England by the early 1500s (persecuted throughout Europee in the middle of that century especially in England and in Scandinavia, but eventually given special travelling privileges in England before 1600). Not finding much about Muslims in Europe, outside the areas they controlled in the Middle Ages. Our own article Islamic contributions to Medieval Europe doesn't really get into it, and seems to suggest that most of these influence came via Spain, Sicily, Rome, and Greece, often by way of Europeans returning from Eastern and African travels, not from Muslims living deep in Europe, except in Spain. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 03:38, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Why is you want to remove such old usage of the word moor that dates back to 500 A.D.???
Also stop with the false accsuation I'm assuming GOOD FAITH while you are assuming BAD FAITH, that is not good for the collaborative environment of Wikipedia, so let's discuss here Alexis Ivanov ( talk) 05:26, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
This article has many issues. Doug Weller has made it perfectly clear that he (or she) will use his/ her objective bias and opinion ESPECIALLY on pages dealing with Moors (See talk section at Moorish Science Temple of America. I have pointed out SEVERAL flaws in this persons methodology and I am going to use this section to point out not only this person's flawed methodology, but also this person's bigotry. The editor "Doug Weller" uses his/her own personal feelings as opposed to actual scholastic methodology. In this, Doug feels that what he/she feels is right regardless of the sources presented and will ignore the requisites if something said hurts his/feelings. I will be back to this page soon with point for point proofs of this person's bigotry. Peace.--Sheik Way-El 18:01, 26 December 2015 (UTC) --Sheik Way-El 17:47, 26 December 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheik Way-El ( talk • contribs) 17:44, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
I was well aware of this but just found the documentary where there was a Paleopathology on Denia Spain. Time Team based on this we can trace the actual papers of the archaeologist in the doc. It is important because a lot of dispute occurred because Van Sertima was considered Pseudo-History. -- Inayity ( talk) 17:59, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
I think Inayity is frustrated here because they think they have found a RS that happens to back up something Van Sertima wrote, and all they get is a chorus of "Van Sertima is not a RS". Inayity knows that, that's why they are pleased to find a source that isn't Van Sertima! Pinkbeast ( talk) 10:20, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
I have to say I am mystified by the above dispute. My understanding is that a sub-Saharan element in the population of al-Andalus derived from the trade and other cultural connections between sub-Saharan Africa and the Maghreb. Slave traffic, both in the literal sense and in the form of 'slave soldiers' similar to the Mamluq of Egypt and Janissaries in Ottoman service, emphasised that geographical connection.
The use of the term 'Moor'in relation to the Muslim presence in the Peninsula seems have gained increased currency with the intervention by the Moroccan Almoravids in Iberian affairs following the fall of the Ummayad Caliphate in the early C11th and the subsequent fitna. The Almoravids were Sanhaja Berbers in origin but the presence of black African soldiery in Almoravid armies and their increased use by the Almohads who displanted them, led to the association of the term 'Moorish'(Castilian: moro; Latin: mauri) with people of sub-Saharan African aspect. That association gave an ambiguity to the term in English which has lasted through Shakespeare, and it would seem, to the present, viz. heraldic and MSS images of the high Middle ages. It's worth noting, however, that images of both 'Moors' and 'Saracens' regularly depicted a dark-skinned man with wooly hair, evidently as a conflated shorthand image of the exotic and menacing 'other' (viz. Morris Dancers in black face, but that's another story).
Is there any real controversy about this?
Bearing in mind that the most common term in English and Latin was 'Saracen,' it would be intersting to know when the term 'Moor' first emerged in English- which usage obviously lies at the root of this article. Moro in Castilian (Latin: Mauri) was established early. I would have to check just when.
In Spain today, amongst older people at least, moro has particular resonance with the Civil War when Moroccan troops in Franco's army were associated with atrocities in former Republican areas that they occupied and a grim, racist mythology was embraced by both sides. It is still used despectively in reference to natives of Morocco today and seems to carry the weight of a term like 'darky' (the most acceptable equivalent I can think of). Use in reference to the historic Muslim presence in the Peninsula is discouraged, with 'Musulman' or 'Arabe' the preferred term.
JF42 ( talk) 14:52, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
Pages like this is the reason why I simply refuse not to donate to wikipedia's (semi-racist) platform. The Moors looked NOTHING like these pictures. These pictures are a part of a revisionist historical attempt to bleach out the first inhabitants and builders of civilization much like the attempts to make the original peoples of Egypt, something other than who they truly are.
The Moors were a dark-skinned woolly haired people, falsely called "black" today. I simply cannot believe that literary racism still exists today. There are SO MANY REFERENCES and SOURCES that I can post up based on contemporaneous accounts, but for what? It is not like the pictures will be changed. But do know this, over this year, that will be DRASTIC changes made to this page from well sourced works. Unbelievable...
See also is a part of wikipedia linking for related topics. How they are related is not based on anyone's POV. So if the Moorish Science Temple of America is a cult, that fact cannot disqualify them as a see also, when Moorish temple make direct connections to this topic of Moors. True of false? Well I can argue that for Hebrews vs Modern Jews -- If we have a problem with religious claims as invalid. But per RS there is a connection and that is all that matters. The Moorish Temple is connected to this topic, and that is a real group, they claim Moorish ancestry and "religion" and culture that qualifies as a See Also. Makes no difference if that might conflict with someone's person beliefs. And many RS state the connection, Nance, Susan. (2002) "Mystery of the Moorish Science Temple: Southern Blacks and American Alternative Spirituality in 1920s Chicago", Religion and American Culture 12, no. 2 (Summer): 123–166, accessed 29 Aug 2009. -- Inayity ( talk) 07:22, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
Maybe i am wrong but the changes do not seem as good as what we had before. Please discuss. Also my history gets hazy when I leave a topic for a while but Tariq ibn Ziyad was Berber--Not Arab. Hence not an Arab conquest. -- Inayity ( talk) 15:52, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
Alfonso X (1221-1284 AD), king of Castile said: "All of the Moorish soldiers were dressed with silk and black wool that had been forcibily acquired. Their faces were black like pitch and the most handsome of them were black as a cooking pan." (Cantigas of Santa Maria)
The Cantigas of Santa Maria were a collection of 420 poems that were partially written by Alfonso X and often attributed to him. This isn't the only person who bare witness to black Moors.
Procopius of Ceasarea (500-560 AD), a Bynzantine scholar who wrote in Greek, said in his History of the Wars: "beyond that there are men not black-skinned like the Moors" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 14:04, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
Moor (n.) Look up Moor at Dictionary.com "North African, Berber," late 14c., from Old French More, from Medieval Latin Morus, from Latin Maurus "inhabitant of Mauritania" (northwest Africa, a region now corresponding to northern Algeria and Morocco), from Greek Mauros, perhaps a native name, or else cognate with mauros "black" (but this adjective only appears in late Greek and may as well be from the people's name as the reverse). Being a dark people in relation to Europeans, their name in the Middle Ages was a synonym for "Negro;" later (16c.-17c.) used indiscriminately of Muslims (Persians, Arabs, etc.) but especially those in India.
A European scholar sympathetic to the Spaniards remembered the conquest in this way: a. [T]he reins of their (Moors) horses were as fire, their faces black as pitch, their eyes shone like burning candles, their horses were swift as leopards and the riders fiercer than a wolf in a sheepfold at night . . . The noble Goths [the German rulers of Spain to whom Roderick belonged] were broken in an hour, quicker than tongue can tell. Oh luckless Spain! [i] [i] Quoted in Edward Scobie, The Moors and Portugal's Global Expansion, in Golden Age of the Moor, ed Ivan Van Sertima, US, Transaction Publishers, 1992, p.336
qoute " When the topic of the Moorish influence in Europe is being discussed, one of the first questions that arises is, what race were they? As early as the Middle Ages, “Moors were commonly viewed as being mostly black or very swarthy, and hence the word is often used for negro,” according to the Oxford English Dictionary. Author and historian Chancellor Williams said “the original Moors, like the original Egyptians, were black Africans.” The 16th century English playwright William Shakespeare used the word Moor as a synonym for African. His contemporary Christopher Marlowe also used African and Moor interchangeably. Arab writers further buttress the black identity of the Moors. The powerful Moorish Emperor Yusuf ben-Tachfin is described by an Arab chronicler as “a brown man with wooly hair.” Black soldiers, specifically identified as Moors, were actively recruited by Rome, and served in Britain, France, Switzerland, Austria, Hungary, Poland, and Romania. St. Maurice, patron saint of medieval Europe, was only one of many black soldiers and officers under the employ of the Roman Empire. Although generations of Spanish rulers have tried to expunge this era from the historical record, recent archeology and scholarship now shed fresh light on the Moors who flourished in Al-Andalus for more than 700 years – from 711 AD until 1492. The Moorish advances in mathematics, astronomy, art, and agriculture helped propel Europe out of the Dark Ages and into the Renaissance."
The best books I can recommend are the following -The Golden Age of the Moors by Ivan Van Sertima; - Hidden Colors by David Banners; -Nature knows no color line by J A Rogers; — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
70.75.93.245 (
talk) 00:22, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=moor
http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/True_Negros/The_True_Negro_2a.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 00:40, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
the moors were black africans not arabs!!! http://www.topix.com/forum/afam/TBRISMN14PV9QJB3Q
Black Moors in Scotland http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/blackhistory/early_times/moors.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 00:18, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
Old Dictionaries Define The MOORS Race! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YTZvGoCoxQ
Mon 14 Jan 2013 by abagond https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/01/14/sub-saharan-africa/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 10:15, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Here is Germany wiki on Moors
In Germany, the word Moor is spelled as Mohr or Mohren — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 20:29, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
this is in German wiki on moors Mohr https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohr
This a passage on how the Moors described European when they ruled in Europe. It says it all How the Moors described their European foes: Sa-id of Andalusia wrote the following of his White Iberian opponents: They “are nearer animals than men ... They are by nature unthinking and their manners crude. Their bellies protrude; THEIR COLOR IS WHITE and their hair is long. In sharpness and delicacy of spirit and in intellectual perspicacity, they are nil. Ignorance, lack of reasoning power and boorishness are common among them.”(Kitab Tabakat al Umaxn (Blachere K. p. 36. 1935). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 06:51, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
MOOR meant negro or black a moor in a English dictionary (1768) by Samuel Johnson. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 06:53, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
The word moor predates Islam and the Islamic Moorish Empire ruled by Arabs and their Berber allies by thousands of years. That is why there is a long list of Moorish Saints aka Holy Moors who lived long before the advent of Islam or even after the defeat of Muslim Moors Why were they called Moors, if the Moors were Muslim conquerors? Saint Zeno, the Moor, Patron Saint of Veronna, Italy Saint Victor, the Moor Saint Corbineus, the Moor Saint Gregorius, the Moor of Cologne Saint Maurice, the Patron Saint of the Holy Roman Empire, a black man from Upper Egypt, the Commander of the Theban Legion Saint Benedict, the Moor of Palermo, who lived after the defeat of Muslim Moors — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 06:59, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
Dieu, l'homme et la parole, ou La langue primitive par J. Azaïs, père (1778-1856) MAURE, nom d'un peuple dont la peau est noire; Moor: the name of a people whose skin is black. morou languedocien, mourou provençal, maurus lalin, mor, moren langue romane, morien vieux français, moro catalan, moro espagnol, mouro portugais, moro italien, maour, mauryan bas-breton, mohr allemand, moor anglais, moor hollandais, mohr danois, mor suédois, mour, maar, brûler, hébreu. Le More est noir, c'est-à dire de la couleur d'une chose brûlée. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 12:55, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
I wonder why Europeans wanted to immortalize the Moors as Black Africans in countless of expressions and at least DOZENS of traditions. Above all, Europeans created dishes and recipts they named moor or its many derivatives in French, in German, in Austrian etc. In every dish or recipe, they use chocolate or ingredient of a black or dark brown color 1) Moors and Christians: black beans and white rice 2) Moricaud (French) fondant au chocolat et aux amandes — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 13:54, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
There were Moors LONG BEFORE there were any Muslims or Arab conquerors in North Africa. The word moor was even used for Christians of African origin, like Saint Maurice of Egypt or Saint Benedict the Moor. The word moor is derived from the Latin Maurus and the Greek mauros. It became mooriaan in Dutch It became maure or mauricaud in French It became mohr or mohren in German It became moor in English It became murzyn in Polish The term Moor was used across ancient and medieval Europe for people with darker skin color, historically for Ethiopians and Berbers and later generalized for ALL AFRICANS. It was not until the 16th century the word acquired the exclusive Mohr in German and in other European languages (Maure in French or Moro in Spanish) meaning of a man with black skin, while the Moor was henceforth referred to as such. Carlton Coon, an American anthropologist on the Berbers:“The association of dark skin with the name of 'Moors' resulted eventually in the same term being applied to Negrids." The Moors are immortalized as Black Africans in DOZENS of traditions, countless of expressions, a large number of works of arts and even dishes and recipes. Traditions 1) The Moor's head: the head of a Black man or woman, used as a heraldic symbol. Many of the heads are crowned and can be found on blazons of cities, dioceses and noble families; 2) The MORETTI: artistic representations of BLACK AFRICANS (sculpture, jewels etc.; 3) The MORCIC: a medieval jewel depicting a BLACK AFRICAN MAN dressed in oriental style; 4) The MOORS and Christians dish: BLACK beans and white rice 5) The MORESCA: a weapon dance during which the BLACK KING MORO, along with his black army, is challenged and defeated in a love triangle; 6) The MORENKOP or MOORHEAD: a stone head of a MOOR, or black skinned man, that hung above many pharmacies and pubs 7) The MOHRENKOPF (Moor's Head):a chocolate-coated marshmallow treat 8) The blackfaced King of the MOORS during Christmas celebrations in Finland 9) The blackfaced Peter, the MOORISH servant of Santa Claus during Christmas celebrations in Holland and Belgium. Belgians and Dutch blacken their face and wear Afro-wigs and red lipstick. 10) The MORRIS dance: popular folklore dance in Britain during Britons blackened their faces to better represent the original Moorish dancers and elect a King Coffee 11) The MOOR’s head color: dark brown used in decorative arts 12) The MOOR puppet: a blackfaced puppet representing the Moors. The blackfaced Moor puppet is seen onstage playing with a coconut, his movements are ape like. 12) The villainous MOOR: a very common black character played across Europe Expressions Black as Moor Blackface Moor Blacking up as a Moor Dishes and recipes In every dish or recipe, they use chocolate or ingredient of a black or dark brown colo — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
70.75.93.245 (
talk) 15:40, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
qoute" Moor (Period)
The “Moor” or “blackamoor” is a Negroid human, unbearded and with nappy hair. If he wears headgear (a torse, a kerchief, &c), it is explicitly blazoned. When “proper”, he is dark brown with black hair. Moors and Mooresses are frequently found, especially for canting purposes, as in the arms of Mordeysen, 1605 [Siebmacher 160].
http://mistholme.com/dictionary/human-figure/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 17:24, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
The "Moors" of West Africa and the Beginnings of the Portuguese Slave Trade. Kenneth Baxter Wolf. Pomona College. http://scholarship.claremont.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1037&context=pomona_fac_pub
Moors Start Slavery https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPBgwxlabzA — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 10:21, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
Jose Piementa Bey - The Moorish Legacy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8NGzBlWEWY — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 16:15, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
In Polish language there is a word "Murzyn" which is the most popular word to describe a Black person. It is currently translated into English as "Negro" but it didnt have any negative connotations until the second half of 20th century, however it's still consrdered neutral by most Polish people. This word - Murzyn - comes from the word "Moor". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 12:03, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
The lead is highly repetitive and disorganized. Both the invasion and usage of the term are covered twice in separate paragraphs. I'm blending those paragraphs together into a more logical and coherent narrative. Beyond that, the rest of the article also had a number of redundant parts. It looks as though I removed a lot of content, but I mostly combined repetitive parts and removed a lot of overlink. Laszlo Panaflex ( talk) 00:35, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
The moors, my people -the Maghrebin, are priparily made of Lybian stock (also called berber) and of a minority of middle easter (phoenician speaking and later arabic speaking semits) and from other minorities of europeans (romamns greeks and vandals).
1) Why on earth Europeans passed down DOZENS of traditions remembering the Moors as Black Africans like the following:
a) the Moor's head b) the Morcic c) the Moresca d) the Moors and Christians dish e) the Moorish servant of Santa Claus, Black Peter f) the Morris dance g) the blackface King of the Moor
a) Saint Benedict, the Moor; b) Saint Maurice from Upper Egypt; c) Johannes Maurus, the Vizir of Sicily d) Gannibal, the Moor of Peter the Great
So one calling a "moor" white is an oxymoron. It's like saying a dark-skinned white person. And that would make no sense.
moros y cristianos recipe the dish named after " moors and Christians" with black beans for the Moors and white rice for the Christians". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 15:53, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Romans and Greeks = just tanned skin or what you called olive skin. Olives look more like black people black and brown and I never seen a green man in my life.
http://www.kymatasound.com/images/Olives_detail.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 13:35, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
Why was st maruice called a moor when he was not a muslim nor a berber? Why was st augustine called a moor when he was not a muslim nor a berber? Why was de medici called a moor when he was not a mulsim nor a berber? St. Isidore of Seville, who was born in 560 AD and died in April 636 AD, wrote that Maurus means "black" in Greek. In the late 1400s, the Italian Roberto di San Severino in his writings clearly distinguishes between Moors and Arabs.1-According to Ali Ibn Allah, moorish king, AL Mansur was decsribed as having a mother who was a pure negro adn his father was part black part arabic. 2-Yusef Taschiffin was desrcribed as a black man, thin build, hook noes and wooly hair. He was from west africa. 3-The 4 moorish kings of aragon were described as 3 being mulato and the 4th one a pure negro by the name of mulai mahummed. Why is there not one early mideast moorish character in early literature? othello aaron the moor nagaymath turquio merchant of vienece song or roland
European Literature Confirms BLACK MOORS! 📕 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Kzb8ykDo2s — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 01:50, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
1) Why on earth Europeans passed down DOZENS of traditions remembering the Moors as Black Africans like the following: a) the Moor's head b) the Morcic c) the Moresca d) the Moors and Christians dish e) the Moorish servant of Santa Claus, Black Peter f) the Morris dance g) the blackface King of the Moor h) the Villainous Moor i) the puppet Moor j) the Moorehead on pharmacies and pubs; k) Moors and Christians festivals l) the White pieces (the Christians) vs the Black pieces (the Moors) of the Chess board m) the Moretti.2) Why on earth Europeans have coined the following expressions describing the Moors as Black Africans. a) Black as a Moor, hence, blackamoor b) the Black Madonna aka La Madonna Mora c) Give me Moor (a very dark purple nail polish) d) Moor's head cheese (with black crust), moor's head crystals (with black tips), moor's head pigeon (with a black head)3) Why on earth Europeans with no history of Black slavery or black colonies still use the word moor or its derivatives for Black Africans instead of negro. The Polish used Murzyn; the Greeks, mavros for Black Africans?4) Why on earth artists like Rubbens , Rembrandt or authors like Shakespeare used the word Moor in their works for Black Africans and not negro?5) Why on earth the Spaniards came up with the expression blue blood if the Moors were from the same Caucasian or Eurasian family? Spaniards knew the difference between their skin, the dark brown skin of the Moors and the dark skin of their mixed offspring with the Moors, called Moriscos.Sangre azul, blue blood, was a euphemism for being a white man who can hold up his pale or light skin showing blue veins, untainted by Moorish blood. Blue veins clearly appear under light or pale skin.6) Why on earth Black Africans with no connection AT ALL with Islam or Northwestern Africa were called Moors by ancient and medieval Europeans like the following people? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 14:45, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
Why is there not one early mideast moorish character in early literature? othello aaron the moor nagaymath turquio merchant of vienece song or roland — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 02:00, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
Moors in Europe 5: Rise of the Dark Knights
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6pfTykKh0Q
THE GERMANIC MOORS OF THE BLACK REICH https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xewvuZJoxTg
Moors in Europe 4: Who was that Head-Banded Man? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7FnTGU0-3A — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 15:16, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
'Moors' from Oxford Islamic Studies Online http://bridgingcultures.neh.gov/muslimjourneys/items/show/218
Ancient History Sourcebook: Accounts of Ancient Mauretania, c. 430 BCE- 550 CE http://bridgingcultures.neh.gov/muslimjourneys/items/show/218
Mauretania http://bridgingcultures.neh.gov/muslimjourneys/items/show/218 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.75.93.245 ( talk) 01:30, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 05:25, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
I think I've put back everything that went missing in the recent round of drivebys.
However, XXGfHXx has shuffled the ordering of Arabs, Berbers, Muslim Europeans, and sub-Saharan Africans quite extensively with no explanation in edit summaries. May I ask why? Pinkbeast ( talk) 15:44, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
We should probably cover the presence of Moors in Europe outside of Spain and Italy, especially before European involvement in the African slave trade (mid-1600s). Shakespeare's Othello, via Cinthio's "Un Capitano Moro", may be based on real events of the early 1500s in Venice, and seemed not too exotic a subject for London's Elizabethan audience. Morris dancing is apparently ultimately traceable to Moors in the 1400s, in Germany and the Low Countries by way of the Mediterranean states. Readers are apt to wonder whether the frequent appearance of "Moorish" characters in British quasi-historical fiction is plausible (e.g. Camelot (2011 TV series, set in the 500s, and presumably representing descendants of Africans in the Roman army), Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves (1991 film, set in the late 1100s), and The Bastard Executioner (2015 TV series, set in the early 1300s), both of the latter featuring travelling survivors of the Third Crusade. Jews were certainly well-established for real (and being treated punitively) in England by the time of Edward I in the 1200s, but I don't know about other Eastern, Middle Eastern or North African groups. Roma were in Germany and England by the early 1500s (persecuted throughout Europee in the middle of that century especially in England and in Scandinavia, but eventually given special travelling privileges in England before 1600). Not finding much about Muslims in Europe, outside the areas they controlled in the Middle Ages. Our own article Islamic contributions to Medieval Europe doesn't really get into it, and seems to suggest that most of these influence came via Spain, Sicily, Rome, and Greece, often by way of Europeans returning from Eastern and African travels, not from Muslims living deep in Europe, except in Spain. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 03:38, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Why is you want to remove such old usage of the word moor that dates back to 500 A.D.???
Also stop with the false accsuation I'm assuming GOOD FAITH while you are assuming BAD FAITH, that is not good for the collaborative environment of Wikipedia, so let's discuss here Alexis Ivanov ( talk) 05:26, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
This article has many issues. Doug Weller has made it perfectly clear that he (or she) will use his/ her objective bias and opinion ESPECIALLY on pages dealing with Moors (See talk section at Moorish Science Temple of America. I have pointed out SEVERAL flaws in this persons methodology and I am going to use this section to point out not only this person's flawed methodology, but also this person's bigotry. The editor "Doug Weller" uses his/her own personal feelings as opposed to actual scholastic methodology. In this, Doug feels that what he/she feels is right regardless of the sources presented and will ignore the requisites if something said hurts his/feelings. I will be back to this page soon with point for point proofs of this person's bigotry. Peace.--Sheik Way-El 18:01, 26 December 2015 (UTC) --Sheik Way-El 17:47, 26 December 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheik Way-El ( talk • contribs) 17:44, 26 December 2015 (UTC)