![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 9 |
These images in this article in NO WAY represent the physiognomic Moor. It is hard to believe that such a "reputable" online encyclopedia would allow such false images of the Moors when there are literally dozens of painted images with captions of the artists, along with many descriptions describing the Moors who are in fact the Moabites as cited by the Christian writers of the Middle ages, as dark skinned (misnomer black) men and woman. Such misinformation is seen as a greater western academic attempt to disconnect the greatness of those whom are being called black or african american, from their Moorish roots because these roots can literally be traced back to the paradisiacal myth of the Garden of Eden and who the worlds first men are, how they looked and what they were called, MOORS, Who came from the sacred MT. MERU. After my experience with the Noble Drew Ali page dealing with the Moorish Science Temple of America and its history, proves my point. This articles imagery sets the tone for a "whitewashing" of historical facts.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheik Way-El ( talk) 15:58, 6 July 2013
How are contemporary depictions of a moorish king more relevant or suitable than a picture by Rembrand ? The 16th centuiry would be a periuod closer to Moorish Spain than now, and besides these historic paintings would have been informed by knowledge that Europeans had first hand of Moors serving in Royall courts all over Europe long afdter thye collapse of Andalusia. This comment on your part betrays a lack of respect for responsible scholarship. Kaigama33 ( talk) 19:04, 15 February 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaigama33 ( talk • contribs) 19:00, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
And on the image of Othello; In the Literary world there is no debate anymore that Shakepeare intended his character to be black. However the image in the article shows a tawny moor:
It is of course true that the term ‘Moor’ was a remarkably flexible one in the early seventeenth century (fig. 7): not only was it indiscriminately applied to both North Africans and sub-Saharan Negroes (sometimes subdivided into ‘White’,‘Tawny’, and ‘Black’ Moors), but it could also be deployed as a religious category denoting all Muslims (regardless of their ethnicity), or used as a loose descriptor of colour, embracing on occasion even the inhabitants of the New World.2
However, the language of the play—especially the slurs of Iago, Roderigo, and Brabantio—makes it fairly plain that (as with Aaron the Moor in Titus Andronicus) it was a black African that Shakespeare had in mind. The stage tradition, moreover, is unequivocal: from Betterton in the late seventeenth century until Kemble at the end of the eighteenth, the hero was invariably played in blackface as a sub-Saharan ‘black Moor’. The Oxford Shakespeare: Othello: The Moor of Venice (The Oxford Shakespeare)Michael Neill, 2008.
This picture should be changed.
Kaigama33 (
talk)
19:25, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
With the exception of Sri Lankan Moors, this section is largely irrelevant as it does not deal with "Moors", but with cognate terms used in other languages. This is of only tangential interest in an en.Wikipedia article and should be relegated to a footnote or just two or three lines. DeCausa ( talk) 15:09, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
I recently removed a painting of a Moroccan sultan from the 19th century as that image has nothing to do with this article. It has been attempted to be removed several times before and I think remember someone saying it was there as an example of a modern picture of a Moroccan to go with "modern meanings" even though the picture is not "modern" and just completely irrelevant. I put up an image of Mohammed VI who is the current King of Morocco and very modern. WP:IRELEV, we need images to be relevant to the article, that one of the Moroccan sultan currently is not. Also @ Pinkbeast you do not need to have "discussion" first before making a change to a article. You know how WP:Consensus works, don't act like you OWN this article. Valid reason for reversion should be needed, not a poor one like that. ShawntheGod ( talk) 17:02, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
I see some images at the very moment in the article that don't go along with concepts in the article. PER WP:IUP and to be specific"images should depict the concepts described in the text of the article." and I see a lot of images that don't depict current concepts in the article. Yes, some of these images the people in these images may have been deemed 'Moorish' or 'Moor' but that doesn't mean they deserve to be in the article. They don't go along with any concepts in the article (Moors of Iberia, Sicily, architecture etc) and are completely extraneous to the article. Just because something has been deemed 'Moor' or 'Moorish' doesn't mean they are congruent with the article, if that was the case I could get someone to call myself a 'Moor' and a picture of me in the article could be fitting. The images of "Moors" or a 'Moor' in the article should depict direct concepts to go along with the article (Iberia, Sicily, etc) and the tasteless images that lack relevancy with the articles concept should be removed and possibly replaced. ShawntheGod ( talk) 05:33, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
"leave it alone"
Why did you have a problem with my removal of those three images? They don't depict any concepts described in the article. I didn't wanna remove Othello because he's such a noteworthy person the term 'Moor' was applied to so I made a pop culture section so he can be congruent with the article. ShawntheGod ( talk) 01:15, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
I propose we add a new subtopic, Moors in Popular Culture. It should include moors from popular movioes, plays, stories and paintings. It would be a downright shame if we left out the historic paintings and images of moors for the sake of them being too black to suit the tastes of some wiki editors. This would be keeping in spirit with the historic conception of the "moor" for several centuries after the moors were expelled from Spain. Kaigama33 ( talk) 11:40, 17 February 2014 (UTC) 1.165.6.3 ( talk) 11:39, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
With all due respect, the section formerly labelled Moors in Popular Culture has been edited by me. I changed the subtitle to Moors in Art, Literature and Popular culture. And the previous content was too much centered around the modern day pop culture one associates with American TV, as opposed to actual history. I intend to extend and edit what I added to include Moors as portrayed in Literature during the Islamic conquest of Visigothic Spain, and also the idea of the Moor as expressed in European medieval art, paintings, sculpture, ornaments, which carried unto the modern period.
I also intend to discuss the peculiar European Court culture associated with the acquisition of black Moors as slaves or servants or savants, often used as status symbols. Angelino Soliman, the Moor of Vienna Austria, being the perfect example. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaigama33 ( talk • contribs) 02:29, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Ok. So someone got rid of my additions to the section labelled moors in art and popular culture. Why was that? Was there a problem with my sources, since everything was properly referenced. its not as if I got rid of the original input I found in the section. This is a historical article. i dont see how shallow and superficial references to American Tv ought to bemore valued than things like Medieval literature and art. Could someone please explain. If people are more interested in TV than history, what are they doing here? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Kaigama33 (
talk •
contribs)
02:44, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Recent editorial removes Othello from the article due to the fact he is not relevant to the article. How? Because this article is about medieval Muslims who inhabited those areas listed in the lead. Othello was not a "medieval Muslim", nor did he inhabit any of those areas listed in the lead. Just because the appellation of 'Moor' was applied to Othello does not make him relevant to the article. You could apply that term to anyone, this article is about the medieval Muslims of certain areas, one that Othello was not. Removal of Othello from the article is clearly justified per WP:PERTINENCE and WP:IUP as he is extraneous to the article due to the fact he is not a Moor in the notion of this article and does not fit appositely towards any concepts described in this article. ShawntheGod ( talk) 09:36, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
It has nothing to do with "I don't like it" it's the fact that's it completely irrelevant to our discussion about Othello now. He's a fictional Moor, so what does he have to do with this article? I already told you, he doesn't. He's extraneous, not a Moor in the sense of this article, he was not a medieval Muslim of any of those areas. He isn't a concept in this article, at all. He lacks pertinence to the article because nowhere is he relevant to the article at hand. ShawntheGod ( talk) 11:50, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
So you understand my point? I'll even emphasize the exact words of much importance this time, last reiteration here. "In general, images should depict the CONCEPTS described in the TEXT of the ARTICLE." Nowhere does Othello go along with the concepts in the text of the article currently, therefore he is extraneous and removal is justified. ShawntheGod ( talk) 14:22, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
(UTC)
I'm not just singling out Othello, there are other images on this page that aren't congruent with the concepts too. The Moors playing chess are from Iberia -- they go along with the Moors of Iberia concept. Othello doesn't go along with any concepts. I understand your rationale for wanting to keep him in the article, but he isn't harmonious with the current concepts in the article and therefore extraneous to the article. ShawntheGod ( talk) 23:29, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
@ ShawntheGod Shawn, if you cant prove what seems like unfettered opinion with scholarly references you should not be arguing. How on earth is Othello, the most famous moor does not fit into the historic concept of the term moor? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaigama33 ( talk • contribs) 03:36, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
This article has been tagged since September 2011 for need of additional citations, inappropriate or misinterpreted citations and disputed factual accuracy. If we are to improve the article, some additional details here on the talk page would be useful, such as what facts are in dispute and what citations may have been misinterpreted. If anyone knows of a citation that does not support the attributed sentence, please note the details here, so that I or another editor can remedy the situation. Also please note here any other dubious assertions of fact not already tagged with citation needed. If none are noted within about 30 days, I intend to remove the tag. Wilhelm Meis ( ☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 01:32, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
The etymology of Moor needs to be better cited than etymonline.com. I have a much more scholarly citation; here it is:
"Indeed, by the time Isidore of Seville came to write his Etymologies, the word Maurus or ‘Moor’ had become an adjective in Latin, ‘for the Greeks call black, mauron’. "In Isidore’s day, Moors were black by definition…” (Staying Roman: Conquest and identity in Africa and the Mediterranean, 439-700. Jonathan Conant, 2012 Cambridge University Press.)
Am going to change the meaning and citation of the Moor etymology.Before I do so, does anyone object and on what ground?
Kaigama33 (
talk) — Preceding
undated comment added
03:03, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Why are Moors defined as Medieval Moslems? The word Moor was used by Greeks and Romans to describe the ancient inhabitants of North Africa, the definition of Moor should begin with the Ancient Greek Roman period, not the Medieval ages. I think this article focuses too much on Islamic Spain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaigama33 ( talk • contribs) 19:01, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
Furthermore, we have frequent examples of Moor being used in non Islamic contexts. Such as the the Black Magus. If I am able to redefine moor to include moor as used in preislamic, Roman or Christian contexts in the lead, will the edit be allowed. And if no, why not? Because the lead which defines moor as medieval moslems has no references. Its just the opinion of a wiki editor, which is not good enough. Or at least it should not be. Kaigama33 ( talk) 03:30, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
In medieval times the term Moor (like Saracen) basically meant Muslim, it had no denotation of anything other than that. The term has became of such ambiguity since then too. It focuses primarily on the medieval Islamic Moors of Iberia because that's what the Moors are the most renowned for and Al-Andalus is a huge part of history. Would you rather have the article focus more on the Moors short period elsewhere? The influence the Moors had on Espana is huge.
I had to revert your recent edits to the page because of your poor grammar (incorrect capitalization, punctuation, etc), your sources were not legit, and the one source that was legit you didn't quote Martial correctly. You also messed up the articles popular culture section. ShawntheGod ( talk) 04:08, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Shawn, the word moor ought to mean whatever people throughout history intended it to mean, when they used it. This is a term which clearly originates from the Greek Roman era. If we are to write a historical article about moor, it ought to reflect the historical meaning of the word as opposed to simply concentrating one one particular period of history such as the Islamic conquest of Spain.
The Islamic conquest of Spain may have been a big deal for Europeans, and the article ought to reflect that but it would not be accurate to say that Moors refer to Medieval moslems , when that is clearly not the case.
And could you please give me a detailed explanation as to how my sources were not legit. Not legit and you not liking a source is not the same thing. Errors of grammar and punctuation could easily be corrected. wiping out entire sections of an article because of errors in grammar which you are unable to specify makes no sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaigama33 ( talk • contribs) 04:32, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Shawn, it's the easiest thing in the world for me to get an edition of the poem,besides the one from Ancient text. And how did I not quote Martial correctly? Do you question the existence of the poems and ideas which I made references to. Because my references could easily be corrected. When I do make these corrections I don't expect my contributions to be wiped out so unceremoniously.
I know the article focuses on Medieval moors, which is exactly the problem. The article ought to begin with moors as defined by the Greeks and Romans because the term originates from the Greek and Roman era. And its usage in the Middle Ages is nothoing more but a continuation from the earlier Greek and Roman period. As I said the lead does not even reference the idea that moors ought to be medieval moslems; it is nothing more but the opinion of a wiki editor.
The word moor should be defined to mean what can be proven in history. It makes no sense to speak about Sri Lankan moors and such without making any mention of the first group of people who were referred to as Moors, which is the North African populations encountered by Greeks and Romans and described as moors. Kaigama33 ( talk) 05:28, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Am I talking to someone who is deaf, here? The article is called Moors. Any article about Moors ought to begin with the GrecoRoman period as this is the origin of Moors and not just the etymology of the word. If you are focused so much on Medieval Moslems the article ought to be renamed medieval Islamic moors, and not just moors. This problem could easily be solved by creating a proper historical chronology of the term and how it has been used throughout history. It makes no sense for the word moor to be defined in a way which simply suits your own bias or obsession with the Islamic Spain and the Medieval ages. And would you please stop talking about grammar. Most of this article reads like something written by someone for whom English is a second language or someone who is a mediocre English student still stuck in high school, because he is forced to repeat grades so many times for being so dull. Kaigama33 ( talk) 08:48, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
The "Moors were the medieval Muslim inhabitants" has been on this article for like 10 years now. If you wanna add information about the usage of the term "Moors" preceding medieval times, then put it in the appropriate section for the history of the word (etymology) and make sure you have proper sources, grammar, you don't mess up the article, and you quote people correctly this time. If you wanna add literature about the Moors from Al-Andalus, Sicily, etc, put it in the existing sections in the article. Thanks. ShawntheGod ( talk) 09:09, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Actually, check this and it says "term often used in English to describe the medieval Muslim inhabitants", so no something similar to that wording has been on this page for like 10 years now. I did not "interfere" with his editorial except in a necessary way; I reverted him and gave various reasons why (when I revert people I give reasons why) and told him if he wanted to make edits to the page then he needed to do it correctly, I did not denigrate the editor or anything like that. My removal of those images were per WP policy, it wasn't some sort of visceral removal. I also mentioned that Othello was played by various actors so people wouldn't try and include isolated incidents in the article 'Othello was played by X, A, C, in the movie', you get the point. ShawntheGod ( talk) 07:12, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
Shawn, I ask this earnestly: Do you have some kind of anti black ideological agenda? All your edits seem focused on gleaning this article of all connections between blacks and moors, which is quite nonsense considering the word actually means just that "black" in many historical instances. Kaigama33 ( talk) 07:58, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
I have no anti-black agenda @ Kaigama33, black culture plays a huge part in my life (style, linguistic, music, etc) and even a tiny bit of my genome as I am a White American descended from a Negroid slave; if I was anti-black you wouldn't see me making tons of edits to Hip-Hop or R&B articles like I do. I'm actually the only editor to mention how the Sub-Saharan Africans were used in Al-Andalus. I do have an anti pseudo-history agenda though and this article is a hot topic for Afrocentrists and people have complained about that on this article before. My contributions to this article have been significant (sources, images, textual, etc) the problem I have is pseudo-history and nonsense that tries to get integrated into it. @ User:Inayity Hollywood is by far no reliable source for history, the nonsense I've seen in the media is ridiculous, the Eurocentrism, Afrocentrism, etc, the garbage in the media is truly abhorrent at times. @ Paul B I've seen the "Moors" depicted in various ways, although all the Moor statues of Negroid features tend to come from post Al-Andalus times, not actually from contemporary Al-Andalus that have historicity. All the states of "Moors" I've seen that come from Al-Andalus, tend to have Caucasian features. I've also seen post Al-Andalus light depiction of Moors too, in my opinion it's best to use pictures from Al-Andalus, Sicily, etc, for an authentically historical depiction of Moors, not images from the 1900's to represent the Moors of Espana that have no historicity. ShawntheGod ( talk) 21:30, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
Please beware that just because someone does not revert you it does not mean they support you. numerous reasons exist. but silence is NOT Support. And when reverted seek the talk page.-- Inayity ( talk) 07:18, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 9 |
These images in this article in NO WAY represent the physiognomic Moor. It is hard to believe that such a "reputable" online encyclopedia would allow such false images of the Moors when there are literally dozens of painted images with captions of the artists, along with many descriptions describing the Moors who are in fact the Moabites as cited by the Christian writers of the Middle ages, as dark skinned (misnomer black) men and woman. Such misinformation is seen as a greater western academic attempt to disconnect the greatness of those whom are being called black or african american, from their Moorish roots because these roots can literally be traced back to the paradisiacal myth of the Garden of Eden and who the worlds first men are, how they looked and what they were called, MOORS, Who came from the sacred MT. MERU. After my experience with the Noble Drew Ali page dealing with the Moorish Science Temple of America and its history, proves my point. This articles imagery sets the tone for a "whitewashing" of historical facts.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheik Way-El ( talk) 15:58, 6 July 2013
How are contemporary depictions of a moorish king more relevant or suitable than a picture by Rembrand ? The 16th centuiry would be a periuod closer to Moorish Spain than now, and besides these historic paintings would have been informed by knowledge that Europeans had first hand of Moors serving in Royall courts all over Europe long afdter thye collapse of Andalusia. This comment on your part betrays a lack of respect for responsible scholarship. Kaigama33 ( talk) 19:04, 15 February 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaigama33 ( talk • contribs) 19:00, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
And on the image of Othello; In the Literary world there is no debate anymore that Shakepeare intended his character to be black. However the image in the article shows a tawny moor:
It is of course true that the term ‘Moor’ was a remarkably flexible one in the early seventeenth century (fig. 7): not only was it indiscriminately applied to both North Africans and sub-Saharan Negroes (sometimes subdivided into ‘White’,‘Tawny’, and ‘Black’ Moors), but it could also be deployed as a religious category denoting all Muslims (regardless of their ethnicity), or used as a loose descriptor of colour, embracing on occasion even the inhabitants of the New World.2
However, the language of the play—especially the slurs of Iago, Roderigo, and Brabantio—makes it fairly plain that (as with Aaron the Moor in Titus Andronicus) it was a black African that Shakespeare had in mind. The stage tradition, moreover, is unequivocal: from Betterton in the late seventeenth century until Kemble at the end of the eighteenth, the hero was invariably played in blackface as a sub-Saharan ‘black Moor’. The Oxford Shakespeare: Othello: The Moor of Venice (The Oxford Shakespeare)Michael Neill, 2008.
This picture should be changed.
Kaigama33 (
talk)
19:25, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
With the exception of Sri Lankan Moors, this section is largely irrelevant as it does not deal with "Moors", but with cognate terms used in other languages. This is of only tangential interest in an en.Wikipedia article and should be relegated to a footnote or just two or three lines. DeCausa ( talk) 15:09, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
I recently removed a painting of a Moroccan sultan from the 19th century as that image has nothing to do with this article. It has been attempted to be removed several times before and I think remember someone saying it was there as an example of a modern picture of a Moroccan to go with "modern meanings" even though the picture is not "modern" and just completely irrelevant. I put up an image of Mohammed VI who is the current King of Morocco and very modern. WP:IRELEV, we need images to be relevant to the article, that one of the Moroccan sultan currently is not. Also @ Pinkbeast you do not need to have "discussion" first before making a change to a article. You know how WP:Consensus works, don't act like you OWN this article. Valid reason for reversion should be needed, not a poor one like that. ShawntheGod ( talk) 17:02, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
I see some images at the very moment in the article that don't go along with concepts in the article. PER WP:IUP and to be specific"images should depict the concepts described in the text of the article." and I see a lot of images that don't depict current concepts in the article. Yes, some of these images the people in these images may have been deemed 'Moorish' or 'Moor' but that doesn't mean they deserve to be in the article. They don't go along with any concepts in the article (Moors of Iberia, Sicily, architecture etc) and are completely extraneous to the article. Just because something has been deemed 'Moor' or 'Moorish' doesn't mean they are congruent with the article, if that was the case I could get someone to call myself a 'Moor' and a picture of me in the article could be fitting. The images of "Moors" or a 'Moor' in the article should depict direct concepts to go along with the article (Iberia, Sicily, etc) and the tasteless images that lack relevancy with the articles concept should be removed and possibly replaced. ShawntheGod ( talk) 05:33, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
"leave it alone"
Why did you have a problem with my removal of those three images? They don't depict any concepts described in the article. I didn't wanna remove Othello because he's such a noteworthy person the term 'Moor' was applied to so I made a pop culture section so he can be congruent with the article. ShawntheGod ( talk) 01:15, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
I propose we add a new subtopic, Moors in Popular Culture. It should include moors from popular movioes, plays, stories and paintings. It would be a downright shame if we left out the historic paintings and images of moors for the sake of them being too black to suit the tastes of some wiki editors. This would be keeping in spirit with the historic conception of the "moor" for several centuries after the moors were expelled from Spain. Kaigama33 ( talk) 11:40, 17 February 2014 (UTC) 1.165.6.3 ( talk) 11:39, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
With all due respect, the section formerly labelled Moors in Popular Culture has been edited by me. I changed the subtitle to Moors in Art, Literature and Popular culture. And the previous content was too much centered around the modern day pop culture one associates with American TV, as opposed to actual history. I intend to extend and edit what I added to include Moors as portrayed in Literature during the Islamic conquest of Visigothic Spain, and also the idea of the Moor as expressed in European medieval art, paintings, sculpture, ornaments, which carried unto the modern period.
I also intend to discuss the peculiar European Court culture associated with the acquisition of black Moors as slaves or servants or savants, often used as status symbols. Angelino Soliman, the Moor of Vienna Austria, being the perfect example. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaigama33 ( talk • contribs) 02:29, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Ok. So someone got rid of my additions to the section labelled moors in art and popular culture. Why was that? Was there a problem with my sources, since everything was properly referenced. its not as if I got rid of the original input I found in the section. This is a historical article. i dont see how shallow and superficial references to American Tv ought to bemore valued than things like Medieval literature and art. Could someone please explain. If people are more interested in TV than history, what are they doing here? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Kaigama33 (
talk •
contribs)
02:44, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Recent editorial removes Othello from the article due to the fact he is not relevant to the article. How? Because this article is about medieval Muslims who inhabited those areas listed in the lead. Othello was not a "medieval Muslim", nor did he inhabit any of those areas listed in the lead. Just because the appellation of 'Moor' was applied to Othello does not make him relevant to the article. You could apply that term to anyone, this article is about the medieval Muslims of certain areas, one that Othello was not. Removal of Othello from the article is clearly justified per WP:PERTINENCE and WP:IUP as he is extraneous to the article due to the fact he is not a Moor in the notion of this article and does not fit appositely towards any concepts described in this article. ShawntheGod ( talk) 09:36, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
It has nothing to do with "I don't like it" it's the fact that's it completely irrelevant to our discussion about Othello now. He's a fictional Moor, so what does he have to do with this article? I already told you, he doesn't. He's extraneous, not a Moor in the sense of this article, he was not a medieval Muslim of any of those areas. He isn't a concept in this article, at all. He lacks pertinence to the article because nowhere is he relevant to the article at hand. ShawntheGod ( talk) 11:50, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
So you understand my point? I'll even emphasize the exact words of much importance this time, last reiteration here. "In general, images should depict the CONCEPTS described in the TEXT of the ARTICLE." Nowhere does Othello go along with the concepts in the text of the article currently, therefore he is extraneous and removal is justified. ShawntheGod ( talk) 14:22, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
(UTC)
I'm not just singling out Othello, there are other images on this page that aren't congruent with the concepts too. The Moors playing chess are from Iberia -- they go along with the Moors of Iberia concept. Othello doesn't go along with any concepts. I understand your rationale for wanting to keep him in the article, but he isn't harmonious with the current concepts in the article and therefore extraneous to the article. ShawntheGod ( talk) 23:29, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
@ ShawntheGod Shawn, if you cant prove what seems like unfettered opinion with scholarly references you should not be arguing. How on earth is Othello, the most famous moor does not fit into the historic concept of the term moor? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaigama33 ( talk • contribs) 03:36, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
This article has been tagged since September 2011 for need of additional citations, inappropriate or misinterpreted citations and disputed factual accuracy. If we are to improve the article, some additional details here on the talk page would be useful, such as what facts are in dispute and what citations may have been misinterpreted. If anyone knows of a citation that does not support the attributed sentence, please note the details here, so that I or another editor can remedy the situation. Also please note here any other dubious assertions of fact not already tagged with citation needed. If none are noted within about 30 days, I intend to remove the tag. Wilhelm Meis ( ☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 01:32, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
The etymology of Moor needs to be better cited than etymonline.com. I have a much more scholarly citation; here it is:
"Indeed, by the time Isidore of Seville came to write his Etymologies, the word Maurus or ‘Moor’ had become an adjective in Latin, ‘for the Greeks call black, mauron’. "In Isidore’s day, Moors were black by definition…” (Staying Roman: Conquest and identity in Africa and the Mediterranean, 439-700. Jonathan Conant, 2012 Cambridge University Press.)
Am going to change the meaning and citation of the Moor etymology.Before I do so, does anyone object and on what ground?
Kaigama33 (
talk) — Preceding
undated comment added
03:03, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Why are Moors defined as Medieval Moslems? The word Moor was used by Greeks and Romans to describe the ancient inhabitants of North Africa, the definition of Moor should begin with the Ancient Greek Roman period, not the Medieval ages. I think this article focuses too much on Islamic Spain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaigama33 ( talk • contribs) 19:01, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
Furthermore, we have frequent examples of Moor being used in non Islamic contexts. Such as the the Black Magus. If I am able to redefine moor to include moor as used in preislamic, Roman or Christian contexts in the lead, will the edit be allowed. And if no, why not? Because the lead which defines moor as medieval moslems has no references. Its just the opinion of a wiki editor, which is not good enough. Or at least it should not be. Kaigama33 ( talk) 03:30, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
In medieval times the term Moor (like Saracen) basically meant Muslim, it had no denotation of anything other than that. The term has became of such ambiguity since then too. It focuses primarily on the medieval Islamic Moors of Iberia because that's what the Moors are the most renowned for and Al-Andalus is a huge part of history. Would you rather have the article focus more on the Moors short period elsewhere? The influence the Moors had on Espana is huge.
I had to revert your recent edits to the page because of your poor grammar (incorrect capitalization, punctuation, etc), your sources were not legit, and the one source that was legit you didn't quote Martial correctly. You also messed up the articles popular culture section. ShawntheGod ( talk) 04:08, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Shawn, the word moor ought to mean whatever people throughout history intended it to mean, when they used it. This is a term which clearly originates from the Greek Roman era. If we are to write a historical article about moor, it ought to reflect the historical meaning of the word as opposed to simply concentrating one one particular period of history such as the Islamic conquest of Spain.
The Islamic conquest of Spain may have been a big deal for Europeans, and the article ought to reflect that but it would not be accurate to say that Moors refer to Medieval moslems , when that is clearly not the case.
And could you please give me a detailed explanation as to how my sources were not legit. Not legit and you not liking a source is not the same thing. Errors of grammar and punctuation could easily be corrected. wiping out entire sections of an article because of errors in grammar which you are unable to specify makes no sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaigama33 ( talk • contribs) 04:32, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Shawn, it's the easiest thing in the world for me to get an edition of the poem,besides the one from Ancient text. And how did I not quote Martial correctly? Do you question the existence of the poems and ideas which I made references to. Because my references could easily be corrected. When I do make these corrections I don't expect my contributions to be wiped out so unceremoniously.
I know the article focuses on Medieval moors, which is exactly the problem. The article ought to begin with moors as defined by the Greeks and Romans because the term originates from the Greek and Roman era. And its usage in the Middle Ages is nothoing more but a continuation from the earlier Greek and Roman period. As I said the lead does not even reference the idea that moors ought to be medieval moslems; it is nothing more but the opinion of a wiki editor.
The word moor should be defined to mean what can be proven in history. It makes no sense to speak about Sri Lankan moors and such without making any mention of the first group of people who were referred to as Moors, which is the North African populations encountered by Greeks and Romans and described as moors. Kaigama33 ( talk) 05:28, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Am I talking to someone who is deaf, here? The article is called Moors. Any article about Moors ought to begin with the GrecoRoman period as this is the origin of Moors and not just the etymology of the word. If you are focused so much on Medieval Moslems the article ought to be renamed medieval Islamic moors, and not just moors. This problem could easily be solved by creating a proper historical chronology of the term and how it has been used throughout history. It makes no sense for the word moor to be defined in a way which simply suits your own bias or obsession with the Islamic Spain and the Medieval ages. And would you please stop talking about grammar. Most of this article reads like something written by someone for whom English is a second language or someone who is a mediocre English student still stuck in high school, because he is forced to repeat grades so many times for being so dull. Kaigama33 ( talk) 08:48, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
The "Moors were the medieval Muslim inhabitants" has been on this article for like 10 years now. If you wanna add information about the usage of the term "Moors" preceding medieval times, then put it in the appropriate section for the history of the word (etymology) and make sure you have proper sources, grammar, you don't mess up the article, and you quote people correctly this time. If you wanna add literature about the Moors from Al-Andalus, Sicily, etc, put it in the existing sections in the article. Thanks. ShawntheGod ( talk) 09:09, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Actually, check this and it says "term often used in English to describe the medieval Muslim inhabitants", so no something similar to that wording has been on this page for like 10 years now. I did not "interfere" with his editorial except in a necessary way; I reverted him and gave various reasons why (when I revert people I give reasons why) and told him if he wanted to make edits to the page then he needed to do it correctly, I did not denigrate the editor or anything like that. My removal of those images were per WP policy, it wasn't some sort of visceral removal. I also mentioned that Othello was played by various actors so people wouldn't try and include isolated incidents in the article 'Othello was played by X, A, C, in the movie', you get the point. ShawntheGod ( talk) 07:12, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
Shawn, I ask this earnestly: Do you have some kind of anti black ideological agenda? All your edits seem focused on gleaning this article of all connections between blacks and moors, which is quite nonsense considering the word actually means just that "black" in many historical instances. Kaigama33 ( talk) 07:58, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
I have no anti-black agenda @ Kaigama33, black culture plays a huge part in my life (style, linguistic, music, etc) and even a tiny bit of my genome as I am a White American descended from a Negroid slave; if I was anti-black you wouldn't see me making tons of edits to Hip-Hop or R&B articles like I do. I'm actually the only editor to mention how the Sub-Saharan Africans were used in Al-Andalus. I do have an anti pseudo-history agenda though and this article is a hot topic for Afrocentrists and people have complained about that on this article before. My contributions to this article have been significant (sources, images, textual, etc) the problem I have is pseudo-history and nonsense that tries to get integrated into it. @ User:Inayity Hollywood is by far no reliable source for history, the nonsense I've seen in the media is ridiculous, the Eurocentrism, Afrocentrism, etc, the garbage in the media is truly abhorrent at times. @ Paul B I've seen the "Moors" depicted in various ways, although all the Moor statues of Negroid features tend to come from post Al-Andalus times, not actually from contemporary Al-Andalus that have historicity. All the states of "Moors" I've seen that come from Al-Andalus, tend to have Caucasian features. I've also seen post Al-Andalus light depiction of Moors too, in my opinion it's best to use pictures from Al-Andalus, Sicily, etc, for an authentically historical depiction of Moors, not images from the 1900's to represent the Moors of Espana that have no historicity. ShawntheGod ( talk) 21:30, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
Please beware that just because someone does not revert you it does not mean they support you. numerous reasons exist. but silence is NOT Support. And when reverted seek the talk page.-- Inayity ( talk) 07:18, 8 May 2014 (UTC)