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In the first paragraph of this article there is a distinction made between Berbers and black africans which is absurd. Modern Berbers are not a race nor a complexion. They are an indigenous group of Africans who range from very fair skin to dark skin. A wide range of historical sources all point to the dark skin of the ancient Berbers. I have already cited many of these sources. Here is one quote from Ibn Butlan (from 11th century Baghdad) I forgot to cite:
"Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters ..."
In particular references to the Almorhavids all the historical sources commenting on their ethnicity portray them as mostly darkskinned, which is not surprising considering the Almorharvid movement was sparked and developed in Senegal, where some of the blackest people in the world live.
I also find it strange that this artticle absurdly defines Moors as strictly moslem when many of the famous Moors are Christians, black christians. I would appreciate it if you allowed the necessary changes to be made in this article. As my first attempt has been reversed.
My first attempt was in the first paragraph. Where i tried to get rid of the distinction between Berbers and black Africans as Berbers were frequently or mostly black Africans themselves. Here is my paragraph:
"The term Moors has referred to several historic and modern populations, used principally in reference to the Berber people (Stanley Lane-Poole , Arthur Gilman; The Story of The Moors in Spain, 1903) but also came to be used for converted Muslims of Iberian descent,and also for other Africans besides Berbers as well as Arabs and Persians who made up the populations of Islamic Spain. After the expulsion of the Moors from Spain, the term up to the 19th century was widely understood or accepted as reference to any dark skin person of African descent, including Christians (John Olgilvie, The Imperial Dictionary of the English Language (1882)). From their base in northern Africa, they came to conquer, occupy and rule territories in the Iberian Peninsula for varying periods in different regions, ranging from two decades in the north-west to nearly eight hundred years in the south-east. At that time they were Muslims, although earlier these people had followed religions other than Islam. They called the territory they controlled in Iberia Al Andalus, which at its peak comprised most of what is now Spain and Portugal. For a shorter period called Islamic Sicily, they controlled all of Sicily and Malta, as well as other smaller parts of southern Italy."
I would appreciate feedback.
Ahmedbaba ( talk) 01:42, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
I've seen editors go back and forth over racial/ethnic issues in the lead, someone asserted that the Moors conquered and ruled [all of] the Iberian peninsula for over 800 years (which is factually false), and someone else added a fact tag to it. The lead is unstable because it has been the subject of poorly written, poorly sourced and sometimes counterfactual POV-pushing. I would REALLY like to know how this does anything to improve the article. Wilhelm Meis ( ☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 03:49, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
I see we are still going back and forth over the inclusion of "muslim", "arab" and "berber", and I think some citations to reliable sources with these mentions in the lead would help. My American Heritage Dictionary states Moors are "people of mixed Berber and Arab descent," but that is a tertiary source. Anybody got reliable secondary sources handy? Wilhelm Meis ( ☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 17:19, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
It seems to me that gray areas are being assumed relevant to the lead.
The remedy would appear to be to note these disputes right under the head with subheads pertaining to what they are about, something like this:
"Reader Disputes
"Race Defined by Color
"Some who have read this article find it insulting that portions of the head, and references in it, explain history that also explains how that history defined race by color and nothing else. Reason and science in the modern day reject this means of defining race but this principle was relevant to the more oppressive and tyrannical past of mankind, portions of which are being discussed in this article. Thus, to accurately explain and portray that history, it is germane to the purposes of the article.
"The Iberian Peninsula
"There has also been a dispute amongst readers where some suggest the Moors conquered and ruled [all of] the Iberian peninsula for over 800 years. Until citation to a verifiable record of this information is made this article will reference it as a dispute amongst readers, and this is done in an effort to be inclusive of those with this view while explaining that there is no known factual basis for it."
"These disputes have been set forth and classified in this manner in an effort to help them be resolvable disputes within an arguable and provable context instead of as a "static-in-crosstalk" unable to be resolved in a manner that contributes to the article."
My 2 cents as a reader who found this in searching for some information on Moors.
Thank you and apologize for typos etc., no grammarian here.
--
71.223.40.124 (
talk) 17:44, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
About this [1] revert: I removed the gallery not because I have some general objection against galleries, but because the contents of this particular gallery were inappropriate. It was a random and rather tasteless collection of mostly late, non-contemporary paintings, several of them full of orientalist stereotype (such as the clichéed and utterly ahistorical "Picking the Favourite", a typical example of 19th-century European salacious phantasizing about "oriental" harems and the like, or the equally stereotyped (and mislabelled) File:Moorish King Of Grenada.jpg. These things tell us a lot about western European imaginations of the "other", but they tell us precious little about the actual historical Moors. These images need to be removed, unless they were embedded in some insightful and well-sourced commentary, in a section about "cultural depictions" or something like that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:36, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
The moor and savage are utterly distinct. It's as if a person said a lion was sometimes called a tiger. I am going to edit. -- Daniel C. Boyer ( talk) 15:41, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
I don't understand it's purpose. Personally I would move to have it deleted, simply because it's purpose is reflective of anti-Moorish notions amongst the Aragonese, but is ultimately irrelevant, I feel that you would find that kind of sentiment against other ethnic and religious groups to be common for all groups. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.28.162.83 ( talk) 23:14, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
Berbers are not African!!!! Their racial features do not resemble any African traits at all. They are a different group of people NOT AFRICAN. One can tell when one looks African, based on facial features NOT color of skin. The writer is basing her/his assessment solely on color which is ridiculous!! Most North Africans will agree with what I have to say because I am from there. We are from North Africans but do not carry any African DNA. There are North Africans with strains from the south of the continent; it is clearly evident in their outlook. The writer needs to research correctly not based on emotions and feelings and his/her opinion!!! Egyptian culture enslaved most Africans, some inter married, few rose to prominence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.119.149.199 ( talk) 15:30, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
There are multiple issues with this section. First, a source and statement are needed to frame its necessity in the article (i.e., that the genetic and ethnic origins and make-up of Moorish peoples is in dispute). Without such a statement, the section's necessity is in question. Speaking specifically to what is already there: the first paragraph regarding the Howard University professor contains weasel words and should be cleaned up. The second paragraph likewise contains no explanation or statement framing its reason for inclusion. Additionally, this section addresses only one of the groups that the term "Moor" was applied to (and briefly, at that). The Berber article adequately addresses the genetic attributes of that ethnic group, so reiterating it here is unnecessary, unless the section is intended to briefly address the genetic attributes of all the above-mentioned groups.
In all, however, I believe that the earlier sections discussing the ethnic and geographic dynamics of Moors adequately addresses the concerns this section is supposed to, and it may therefore be completely unnecessary. As it exists now, I understand that these concerns may be contentious, so I've refrained from editing the content as of yet. However, I am adding a section tag so that these concerns may be addressed. 68.34.18.128 ( talk) 03:04, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
As there has not yet been suitable justification for the inclusion of the Berber y-haplogroup information in the genetics section, and as that information is covered more adequately in other articles, I'm going to remove it for now. While it is in and of itself well-cited, there is no mention of its direct connection to the Moors, and only an offhand mention of its relation to modern Andalusian and Iberian populations (which does not itself connect it to the historical Moors that are the subject of this article). I can conceivably see why genetic information of the Moorish peoples would be of interest to readers, and would love to see someone with greater expertise take up this challenge and expand the section. However, right now it is underdeveloped, confusing, and unfortunately not completely justified in its inclusion. I'll be cleaning up the issue tags also. Feel free to comment. 68.34.18.128 ( talk) 01:37, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
How about a disambiguation link to the land feature known as a moor? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.139.71.233 ( talk) 16:50, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
The term "Moor" might apply to blacks in the Sahara and the Niger Delta/Senegal River, but in al-Andalus, the Moors were definitely not black, only a few were. Knowing all the medieval paintings of Muslims in Spain, there are only a couple of them that depict black Muslims, whereas literally dozens and dozens more show light-skinned (not even medium/brown-skinned) Muslims. I feel many of the pictures on this article are misleading; consider the classic picture that Afrocentrists love using: black Muslims playing chess. I checked the picture source, and it comes from an Afrocentrist website ("realhistoryww"). This is very biased because in the whole Book of Games, only a couple of pictures depict blacks whereas almost all of the other Muslims in the book are depicted as light-skinned. Are those pictures appropriate if they described Muslims from the Sahara or west Africa (Mali/Nigeria/Senegal)? Yes. Are those pictures appropriate if they described Muslims from Spain or Portugal? No. And that picture attempts to show what Muslims in al-Andalus looked like, which is inaccurate cherry-picking the two or three pictures of black Muslims in the Book of Games. That picture can be kept, but more pictures need to be added, otherwise this seems biased and even Afrocentrist.-- Fernirm ( talk) 21:32, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
These key points are supported by numerous references. Notable is the work of the late scholar Maria Menocal. And Poole, and I will be adding ref from poole: The Story of Moors . -- Inayity ( talk) 10:33, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
You said your edits are explained on the talk page. What does that mean? My edits are explained on the talk page also. So why POV push your agenda? And this habit of editing in one swoop, i.e. taking out ref, and adding in another ref is no protection against revert. B/c it is a trick to waste time. I will not sit down with every edit you do and pick out the good from the bad. Your pattern of editing is Single agenda, and disruptive as serious contributors to Wikipedia who have established this article are having their work erased by your poor grasp of wiki policy and good editing (which included proper sentence structures). And this INNOCENTS will not work this time around. You know what you are doing! You behave like a troll provoking a reaction. I will not waste time reading your endless nonsense over and over again and repeating rules to you.-- Inayity ( talk) 14:52, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Please discuss any and all changes to any significant aspect of the lead before making changes. The discussion around these changes has already come and gone. By talk page the lead has been established and is stable. Discuss, get agreement, then make changes is the best policy.-- Inayity ( talk) 10:14, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
Either way, what is your judgement of my last major edit? I merged paragraph 3 and 4 by keeping the best information and integrating the textual, also coalesced other text of importance that seem germane with those paragraphs, so they to go with that part. I kept sources that we both concurred on and ones that are clearly reliable. I added another one for due weight too. I got rid of pictures of so called "Moors" not coming from the actual Moorish civilizations during their reign or real factual ones, so got rid of ahistorical pictures. I put an image up there of the modern day King of Morocco to go along with the "modern meanings" part of the word. I belief this editorial makes the article have much more historicity, realness, and organization. I also am not "trolling" in anyway, not even a mild form, my edits and posts are with earnest. ShawntheGod ( talk) 14:26, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
I will use one example for any other edit visiting of the nonsense being added to a quality article. The term "Moors" has been used to describe several historic and modern populations of Muslim people (Maria)
For Months you being pushing this POV, first under the WP:SPA Ip 70.126.19.148 and 70.126.13.113 where you went to great lengths against me, ALL backfired.-- Inayity ( talk) 15:14, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 9 |
In the first paragraph of this article there is a distinction made between Berbers and black africans which is absurd. Modern Berbers are not a race nor a complexion. They are an indigenous group of Africans who range from very fair skin to dark skin. A wide range of historical sources all point to the dark skin of the ancient Berbers. I have already cited many of these sources. Here is one quote from Ibn Butlan (from 11th century Baghdad) I forgot to cite:
"Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters ..."
In particular references to the Almorhavids all the historical sources commenting on their ethnicity portray them as mostly darkskinned, which is not surprising considering the Almorharvid movement was sparked and developed in Senegal, where some of the blackest people in the world live.
I also find it strange that this artticle absurdly defines Moors as strictly moslem when many of the famous Moors are Christians, black christians. I would appreciate it if you allowed the necessary changes to be made in this article. As my first attempt has been reversed.
My first attempt was in the first paragraph. Where i tried to get rid of the distinction between Berbers and black Africans as Berbers were frequently or mostly black Africans themselves. Here is my paragraph:
"The term Moors has referred to several historic and modern populations, used principally in reference to the Berber people (Stanley Lane-Poole , Arthur Gilman; The Story of The Moors in Spain, 1903) but also came to be used for converted Muslims of Iberian descent,and also for other Africans besides Berbers as well as Arabs and Persians who made up the populations of Islamic Spain. After the expulsion of the Moors from Spain, the term up to the 19th century was widely understood or accepted as reference to any dark skin person of African descent, including Christians (John Olgilvie, The Imperial Dictionary of the English Language (1882)). From their base in northern Africa, they came to conquer, occupy and rule territories in the Iberian Peninsula for varying periods in different regions, ranging from two decades in the north-west to nearly eight hundred years in the south-east. At that time they were Muslims, although earlier these people had followed religions other than Islam. They called the territory they controlled in Iberia Al Andalus, which at its peak comprised most of what is now Spain and Portugal. For a shorter period called Islamic Sicily, they controlled all of Sicily and Malta, as well as other smaller parts of southern Italy."
I would appreciate feedback.
Ahmedbaba ( talk) 01:42, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
I've seen editors go back and forth over racial/ethnic issues in the lead, someone asserted that the Moors conquered and ruled [all of] the Iberian peninsula for over 800 years (which is factually false), and someone else added a fact tag to it. The lead is unstable because it has been the subject of poorly written, poorly sourced and sometimes counterfactual POV-pushing. I would REALLY like to know how this does anything to improve the article. Wilhelm Meis ( ☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 03:49, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
I see we are still going back and forth over the inclusion of "muslim", "arab" and "berber", and I think some citations to reliable sources with these mentions in the lead would help. My American Heritage Dictionary states Moors are "people of mixed Berber and Arab descent," but that is a tertiary source. Anybody got reliable secondary sources handy? Wilhelm Meis ( ☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 17:19, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
It seems to me that gray areas are being assumed relevant to the lead.
The remedy would appear to be to note these disputes right under the head with subheads pertaining to what they are about, something like this:
"Reader Disputes
"Race Defined by Color
"Some who have read this article find it insulting that portions of the head, and references in it, explain history that also explains how that history defined race by color and nothing else. Reason and science in the modern day reject this means of defining race but this principle was relevant to the more oppressive and tyrannical past of mankind, portions of which are being discussed in this article. Thus, to accurately explain and portray that history, it is germane to the purposes of the article.
"The Iberian Peninsula
"There has also been a dispute amongst readers where some suggest the Moors conquered and ruled [all of] the Iberian peninsula for over 800 years. Until citation to a verifiable record of this information is made this article will reference it as a dispute amongst readers, and this is done in an effort to be inclusive of those with this view while explaining that there is no known factual basis for it."
"These disputes have been set forth and classified in this manner in an effort to help them be resolvable disputes within an arguable and provable context instead of as a "static-in-crosstalk" unable to be resolved in a manner that contributes to the article."
My 2 cents as a reader who found this in searching for some information on Moors.
Thank you and apologize for typos etc., no grammarian here.
--
71.223.40.124 (
talk) 17:44, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
About this [1] revert: I removed the gallery not because I have some general objection against galleries, but because the contents of this particular gallery were inappropriate. It was a random and rather tasteless collection of mostly late, non-contemporary paintings, several of them full of orientalist stereotype (such as the clichéed and utterly ahistorical "Picking the Favourite", a typical example of 19th-century European salacious phantasizing about "oriental" harems and the like, or the equally stereotyped (and mislabelled) File:Moorish King Of Grenada.jpg. These things tell us a lot about western European imaginations of the "other", but they tell us precious little about the actual historical Moors. These images need to be removed, unless they were embedded in some insightful and well-sourced commentary, in a section about "cultural depictions" or something like that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:36, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
The moor and savage are utterly distinct. It's as if a person said a lion was sometimes called a tiger. I am going to edit. -- Daniel C. Boyer ( talk) 15:41, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
I don't understand it's purpose. Personally I would move to have it deleted, simply because it's purpose is reflective of anti-Moorish notions amongst the Aragonese, but is ultimately irrelevant, I feel that you would find that kind of sentiment against other ethnic and religious groups to be common for all groups. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.28.162.83 ( talk) 23:14, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
Berbers are not African!!!! Their racial features do not resemble any African traits at all. They are a different group of people NOT AFRICAN. One can tell when one looks African, based on facial features NOT color of skin. The writer is basing her/his assessment solely on color which is ridiculous!! Most North Africans will agree with what I have to say because I am from there. We are from North Africans but do not carry any African DNA. There are North Africans with strains from the south of the continent; it is clearly evident in their outlook. The writer needs to research correctly not based on emotions and feelings and his/her opinion!!! Egyptian culture enslaved most Africans, some inter married, few rose to prominence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.119.149.199 ( talk) 15:30, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
There are multiple issues with this section. First, a source and statement are needed to frame its necessity in the article (i.e., that the genetic and ethnic origins and make-up of Moorish peoples is in dispute). Without such a statement, the section's necessity is in question. Speaking specifically to what is already there: the first paragraph regarding the Howard University professor contains weasel words and should be cleaned up. The second paragraph likewise contains no explanation or statement framing its reason for inclusion. Additionally, this section addresses only one of the groups that the term "Moor" was applied to (and briefly, at that). The Berber article adequately addresses the genetic attributes of that ethnic group, so reiterating it here is unnecessary, unless the section is intended to briefly address the genetic attributes of all the above-mentioned groups.
In all, however, I believe that the earlier sections discussing the ethnic and geographic dynamics of Moors adequately addresses the concerns this section is supposed to, and it may therefore be completely unnecessary. As it exists now, I understand that these concerns may be contentious, so I've refrained from editing the content as of yet. However, I am adding a section tag so that these concerns may be addressed. 68.34.18.128 ( talk) 03:04, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
As there has not yet been suitable justification for the inclusion of the Berber y-haplogroup information in the genetics section, and as that information is covered more adequately in other articles, I'm going to remove it for now. While it is in and of itself well-cited, there is no mention of its direct connection to the Moors, and only an offhand mention of its relation to modern Andalusian and Iberian populations (which does not itself connect it to the historical Moors that are the subject of this article). I can conceivably see why genetic information of the Moorish peoples would be of interest to readers, and would love to see someone with greater expertise take up this challenge and expand the section. However, right now it is underdeveloped, confusing, and unfortunately not completely justified in its inclusion. I'll be cleaning up the issue tags also. Feel free to comment. 68.34.18.128 ( talk) 01:37, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
How about a disambiguation link to the land feature known as a moor? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.139.71.233 ( talk) 16:50, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
The term "Moor" might apply to blacks in the Sahara and the Niger Delta/Senegal River, but in al-Andalus, the Moors were definitely not black, only a few were. Knowing all the medieval paintings of Muslims in Spain, there are only a couple of them that depict black Muslims, whereas literally dozens and dozens more show light-skinned (not even medium/brown-skinned) Muslims. I feel many of the pictures on this article are misleading; consider the classic picture that Afrocentrists love using: black Muslims playing chess. I checked the picture source, and it comes from an Afrocentrist website ("realhistoryww"). This is very biased because in the whole Book of Games, only a couple of pictures depict blacks whereas almost all of the other Muslims in the book are depicted as light-skinned. Are those pictures appropriate if they described Muslims from the Sahara or west Africa (Mali/Nigeria/Senegal)? Yes. Are those pictures appropriate if they described Muslims from Spain or Portugal? No. And that picture attempts to show what Muslims in al-Andalus looked like, which is inaccurate cherry-picking the two or three pictures of black Muslims in the Book of Games. That picture can be kept, but more pictures need to be added, otherwise this seems biased and even Afrocentrist.-- Fernirm ( talk) 21:32, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
These key points are supported by numerous references. Notable is the work of the late scholar Maria Menocal. And Poole, and I will be adding ref from poole: The Story of Moors . -- Inayity ( talk) 10:33, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
You said your edits are explained on the talk page. What does that mean? My edits are explained on the talk page also. So why POV push your agenda? And this habit of editing in one swoop, i.e. taking out ref, and adding in another ref is no protection against revert. B/c it is a trick to waste time. I will not sit down with every edit you do and pick out the good from the bad. Your pattern of editing is Single agenda, and disruptive as serious contributors to Wikipedia who have established this article are having their work erased by your poor grasp of wiki policy and good editing (which included proper sentence structures). And this INNOCENTS will not work this time around. You know what you are doing! You behave like a troll provoking a reaction. I will not waste time reading your endless nonsense over and over again and repeating rules to you.-- Inayity ( talk) 14:52, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Please discuss any and all changes to any significant aspect of the lead before making changes. The discussion around these changes has already come and gone. By talk page the lead has been established and is stable. Discuss, get agreement, then make changes is the best policy.-- Inayity ( talk) 10:14, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
Either way, what is your judgement of my last major edit? I merged paragraph 3 and 4 by keeping the best information and integrating the textual, also coalesced other text of importance that seem germane with those paragraphs, so they to go with that part. I kept sources that we both concurred on and ones that are clearly reliable. I added another one for due weight too. I got rid of pictures of so called "Moors" not coming from the actual Moorish civilizations during their reign or real factual ones, so got rid of ahistorical pictures. I put an image up there of the modern day King of Morocco to go along with the "modern meanings" part of the word. I belief this editorial makes the article have much more historicity, realness, and organization. I also am not "trolling" in anyway, not even a mild form, my edits and posts are with earnest. ShawntheGod ( talk) 14:26, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
I will use one example for any other edit visiting of the nonsense being added to a quality article. The term "Moors" has been used to describe several historic and modern populations of Muslim people (Maria)
For Months you being pushing this POV, first under the WP:SPA Ip 70.126.19.148 and 70.126.13.113 where you went to great lengths against me, ALL backfired.-- Inayity ( talk) 15:14, 27 January 2014 (UTC)