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I don't know if Moonlight can really qualify as Free and open-source, because Moonlight development is made possible by Microsoft giving exclusive access for Novell of Silverlight test suites, implementation details, and binary codecs, only licensed to use With Novell + Moonlight [1]. Quote from the Free software article: Free software is software that can be used, studied, and modified without restriction. OK, I know that closed codecs are (sadly) the norm with open-source software, but I think that the facts about test suites, implementation details, etc... is a bit annoying... After some thought, maybe what is written on the "Microsoft support" part is enough, what do you think ? Hervegirod 10:26, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
from the mono website:
Install dependencies for module moon from your distro: * Gtk+ 2.0 development package * cairo 1.4.xx development package o If you need the source: cairo 1.4.10.tar.gz ( http://www.cairographics.org/releases/cairo-1.4.10.tar.gz) * ffmpeg from SVN o I use: svn co -r 9167 svn://svn.mplayerhq.hu/ffmpeg/trunk —Preceding unsigned comment added by GNUtoo ( talk • contribs) 20:42, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Updated the DRM section to accuriately reflect the content of the source sited. However, the source is a forum full of posts by the general public reposting blog posts from other sources. This source does not meet the Wikipedia standards and another source should be found for this issue. As Moonlight is under 4 separate licenses, binary closed-source blobs could be released for the project. So if Microsoft chooses to support DRM on Linux, there's no licensing reason why Moonlight couldn't release the tool to the public. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.233.232.43 ( talk) 05:15, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
This part may be need further explanation: Proponents such as Groklaw argued early on that the licensing rights are only granted to Novell and Novell's customers. However, this claim was largely dismissed when Microsoft released a public covenant not to sue anyone that makes use of Moonlight. When going to the link to the Microsoft Covenant, it appears that:
It does not seem that the term largely apply here. Hervegirod ( talk) 09:54, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
The Controversy chapter hint that: At the PDC conference on October 13, 2008, Microsoft placed Silverlight under the OSP which states "The Silverlight XAML vocabulary specification, released under the Microsoft Open Specification Promise, will better enable third-party ISVs to create products that can read and write XAML for Silverlight." Since Moonlight is essentially a XAML reader, this news suggests that Moonlight should be safe to redistribute (sans Microsoft's binary codecs). I think that there's a difference between creating a product that reads XAML, and using Moonlight, because Moolight developers have access to exclusive Microsoft sources for their development, such as test cases, Silverlight specification details, and codecs. So I rewrote it as "may be safe", not "should be safe". Hervegirod ( talk) 11:52, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
There are svg logos of moonlight: http://groups.google.com/group/mono-olive/browse_thread/thread/0e80da27cc6bafcc?pli=1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.148.95.55 ( talk) 00:09, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
I see that the following sentence is not allowed in this article, labelled as 'trash' and 'activist' when removed.
Is this simply because people editing here work for Novell or Microsoft? Is there any other justification under any known Wikipedia policy, such as WP:V or WP:RS? The quote is accurate and is attributed correctly. It is a valid point of view that should be covered here, in a balanced article on one of the products specifically mentioned in the quote. -- Nigelj ( talk) 13:19, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
As has been mentioned already, neither BoycottNovell nor The Source are credible sources of "News". They very clearly have a vendetta against everything Microsoft/Novell/Mono related (Note: The Source is maintained by the same guy that runs the Mono-NoNo website). Just because someone has an opinion on something doesn't make it a valid source that needs to be referenced on Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.91.168.13 ( talk) 15:47, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
References
Something big is missing from this article. A website asked me to install this and I wanted to know what it was for, so I came looking here. There is a development history heavily spiced with techno-jargon and acronyms and breathless tales of 21-day hacking sprees, but the article fails completely at providing the most basic information of what exactly is Novell Moonlight and what is it used for? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.216.13.199 ( talk) 06:59, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
First, this edit war must stop. Both those who want to see the material deleted from the article, and those who want it kept must discuss the options here, giving their reasons with regard to Wikipedia policies. Second, the argument to delete it seems to be a continuation of the issues that started in January this year, involving WP:SOCKPUPPETeering by User:hAl, who was blocked indefinitely last November. Thirdly, IMHO, the material is valid as, although it expresses an opinion, is well sourced and the opinion is attributed to notable sources in the topic area. Please add your comments below as to why you think these opinions should not be reported in this article. -- Nigelj ( talk) 17:34, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Of the two sources used, The Source does seem to be a blog, run by Jason Melton. WP:RS says about blogs, "Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications". So, who is Jason Melton? Is he an established expert? Has he been published elsewhere? He has clearly put a lot of thought into his work at The Source and this is not about a WP:BLP, so we could use him, but maybe what is said should be attributed directly to him, like "Jason Melton, writing in his blog The Source, has said..." The other source has been renamed to TechRights and we should update the ref to reflect this. It has two editors, Roy Schestowitz and Shane Coyle [3] and so, presumably, an editorial policy. Even under its previous name, it proclaimed, "“Boycott Novell” is not a blog". [4] It is clearly a partisan site, but that is the point of WP:NPOV - "representing all significant views fairly, proportionately, and without bias". Clearly, the views of the FLOSS community on a subject like Moonlight are significant. The question is, do these refs, and our treatment of them, represent these views? -- Nigelj ( talk) 20:32, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
OK, so which are the best sources to use to summarise the position? Is the Fedora position enough to represent the views of the entire open source community? If not, are these two sites the only others we could use? Are there any non-blog, properly editorialised statements out there, or just a lot of stuff from private individuals? If the latter, are any of them established, published experts in the field (even if these comments are self-published)? N.B. An admin has semi-protected the article so that only established users can edit it, i.e. not IP users and not newly-created user accounts. So we need to decide what it will say here, on Talk. (Of course, they will have protected the 'wrong version', see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/The_Wrong_Version ! -- Nigelj ( talk) 21:49, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
Why does the section on "Moonlight in other distributions" not contain information on Moonlight in other distributions? Whether or not you consider childish blogs to be credible and cite-able sources for Wikipedia, surely they're well outside the scope of that section? More relevant would be information on the packages in Gentoo, Debian, Ubuntu, openSUSE, Mandriva, etc? Either the section is mistitled and the article requires some clear indication elsewhere of Moonlight's general availability in distributions, or the section title is correct but most of the current content (outside the comments on Debian and Fedora) is completely out of scope & should be merged elsewhere, moved into a new "criticism" section, or dropped? 78.105.105.80 ( talk) 21:59, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
Yikes! A lot has happened since I saw this page earlier today. I'm not sure where to put this in the conversation, so I guess adding it here is as good as any place. I was under the impression that since Microsoft has published a Community Promise over the core components of .NET (which would cover the Mono VM and core libraries in Moonlight) and because XAML is under Microsoft's Open Specification Promise (also granting patent rights for 0-cost), added to the fact that they have contributed MS-PL'd (a Free Software license with a patent grant) code implementing the Silverlight Controls and the fact that 2D renderers have been implemented ad-nauseum for decades that it would be pretty unlikely that Microsoft could have *any* patents on the core of Moonlight that they could use to destroy it (assuming they even wanted to, and let's be clear, they have *contributed to the project*). Given that and the fact that the covenant talks about the Microsoft Codec blob, that the only real criticism that holds any water is that Microsoft isn't allowing third-parties to distribute *their* codec blob. Pretty evil, I know. Think of the kittens! Seriously, though, does *anyone* have any patents or anything else that they can find that could be used against Moonlight that would not fall under the MCP, OSP, or their MS-PL code contributions? I think that the only real valid criticisms would have to make use of such documentation to be anything other than fear mongering. BrianRandal ( talk) 23:33, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
One last thing point: it would be trivial for anyone to come up with "criticism" of *any* project (Microsoft hasn't promised not to sue the WINE project, so let's FUD it to death on Wikipedia! It *might* infringe patents!) if you didn't have to support it with cold hard facts. I'm also under the impression that Wikipedia doesn't allow these sorts of unsubstantiated criticisms against living persons and I would imagine the same should apply for "living" projects (e.g. projects that are still under active development). BrianRandal ( talk) 23:39, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
Disclosure: I am User:130.57.22.201. I just created this account like Nigelj suggested. NovellGuy ( talk) 15:12, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure this dispute will never come to a conclusion between me and and User:70.226.165.186 (he claims his friend's blogs are credible, while I and others do not) and that he will continue to try and edit-war on both this article and (as I caught him doing a few minutes ago), edit-warring on the Mono_(software) article as well. Time to call for WP:Arbitration? Or is there some other step we can try first? NovellGuy ( talk) 15:17, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
I have reviewed several dozen "articles" from this Techrights/BoycottNovell site, and my conclusion is that it is not credible. My perception is that the author is a controversy junkie scavenging for hits, and links from Wikipedia only serve to feed his habit. If this site has been used as a reference for other Wikipedia articles, it should be removed. And no, I'm not a shill for anyone. Just someone who doesn't eat BS for breakfast. Maghnus ( talk) 19:48, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
OK, guys. Let's get some facts straight. I have referenced a lot of Wikipedia policies in the precious section (probably too many for you to have read and internalised yet), but here are two more that are very relevant: WP:AGF and WP:NPA. I won't expand them, so you have to go and read them. These (and other) policies are enforced by blocks from admins. Second, I am not an admin, I'm just a passer-by trying to help. Third, you will never find an admin who will come here, tell you who's right in a content argument like this and then enforce the best text in the article for you. Content decisions always move forward by consensus, there is no one else here to decide on the wording apart from us. Edit warring won't work, and nor will trying to get your 'enemies' blocked. Arbitration comes way down the line after all else has failed, and then usually only hands out decisions on behaviour and attitude, not on a one-off content issue like this. We haven't really started solving the content issue here yet.
So, as an ordinary editor like you, I have an opinion: it is that we do need to cover criticism of the way the deals between MS and Novell over Mono and Moonlight were seen to disadvantage other distros, to place unusual requirements or dangers onto Linux users and FLOSS developers, and were seen by some to be an attempt to undermine the whole free-software edifice. These viewpoints may have been proven wrong already, or may be so in the future, or they may have been ill-founded in the first place, but I am certain that they existed and should be recorded here in this article. The next question is, which are the sources we are going to base this coverage on? One day someone may write a scholarly book outlining all the issues and we could use that, but in the interim, we will probably have to use the partisan primary sources on the web. Then we have to decide which ones are most notable, written by the most notable commentators, and which counter-arguments too, the most notable of the 'other side'. That's what we need here now: some URLs to the proposed sources, with discussion as to why they're the best, and what points we can use them to source. Everybody will have to be prepared to compromise and horse-trade: 'If you use X to say A, then I insist on quoting B from Y'. I have seen arguments get down to the number of refs from each side, the number of points made, even the number of words. Get your best ammunition ready, and let's get compromising and building something. (I have to go out for the evening, and I think (it was a long time ago) that I probably originally wrote the passage that you guys have been revert-warring, so you have my some-years-old input already - I hope you are more up-to-date and can do better) -- Nigelj ( talk) 16:09, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
I take it by the 5 days of silence that no one else has found any reliable sources for this either? BrianRandal ( talk) 01:27, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
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I don't know if Moonlight can really qualify as Free and open-source, because Moonlight development is made possible by Microsoft giving exclusive access for Novell of Silverlight test suites, implementation details, and binary codecs, only licensed to use With Novell + Moonlight [1]. Quote from the Free software article: Free software is software that can be used, studied, and modified without restriction. OK, I know that closed codecs are (sadly) the norm with open-source software, but I think that the facts about test suites, implementation details, etc... is a bit annoying... After some thought, maybe what is written on the "Microsoft support" part is enough, what do you think ? Hervegirod 10:26, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
from the mono website:
Install dependencies for module moon from your distro: * Gtk+ 2.0 development package * cairo 1.4.xx development package o If you need the source: cairo 1.4.10.tar.gz ( http://www.cairographics.org/releases/cairo-1.4.10.tar.gz) * ffmpeg from SVN o I use: svn co -r 9167 svn://svn.mplayerhq.hu/ffmpeg/trunk —Preceding unsigned comment added by GNUtoo ( talk • contribs) 20:42, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Updated the DRM section to accuriately reflect the content of the source sited. However, the source is a forum full of posts by the general public reposting blog posts from other sources. This source does not meet the Wikipedia standards and another source should be found for this issue. As Moonlight is under 4 separate licenses, binary closed-source blobs could be released for the project. So if Microsoft chooses to support DRM on Linux, there's no licensing reason why Moonlight couldn't release the tool to the public. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.233.232.43 ( talk) 05:15, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
This part may be need further explanation: Proponents such as Groklaw argued early on that the licensing rights are only granted to Novell and Novell's customers. However, this claim was largely dismissed when Microsoft released a public covenant not to sue anyone that makes use of Moonlight. When going to the link to the Microsoft Covenant, it appears that:
It does not seem that the term largely apply here. Hervegirod ( talk) 09:54, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
The Controversy chapter hint that: At the PDC conference on October 13, 2008, Microsoft placed Silverlight under the OSP which states "The Silverlight XAML vocabulary specification, released under the Microsoft Open Specification Promise, will better enable third-party ISVs to create products that can read and write XAML for Silverlight." Since Moonlight is essentially a XAML reader, this news suggests that Moonlight should be safe to redistribute (sans Microsoft's binary codecs). I think that there's a difference between creating a product that reads XAML, and using Moonlight, because Moolight developers have access to exclusive Microsoft sources for their development, such as test cases, Silverlight specification details, and codecs. So I rewrote it as "may be safe", not "should be safe". Hervegirod ( talk) 11:52, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
There are svg logos of moonlight: http://groups.google.com/group/mono-olive/browse_thread/thread/0e80da27cc6bafcc?pli=1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.148.95.55 ( talk) 00:09, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
I see that the following sentence is not allowed in this article, labelled as 'trash' and 'activist' when removed.
Is this simply because people editing here work for Novell or Microsoft? Is there any other justification under any known Wikipedia policy, such as WP:V or WP:RS? The quote is accurate and is attributed correctly. It is a valid point of view that should be covered here, in a balanced article on one of the products specifically mentioned in the quote. -- Nigelj ( talk) 13:19, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
As has been mentioned already, neither BoycottNovell nor The Source are credible sources of "News". They very clearly have a vendetta against everything Microsoft/Novell/Mono related (Note: The Source is maintained by the same guy that runs the Mono-NoNo website). Just because someone has an opinion on something doesn't make it a valid source that needs to be referenced on Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.91.168.13 ( talk) 15:47, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
References
Something big is missing from this article. A website asked me to install this and I wanted to know what it was for, so I came looking here. There is a development history heavily spiced with techno-jargon and acronyms and breathless tales of 21-day hacking sprees, but the article fails completely at providing the most basic information of what exactly is Novell Moonlight and what is it used for? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.216.13.199 ( talk) 06:59, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
First, this edit war must stop. Both those who want to see the material deleted from the article, and those who want it kept must discuss the options here, giving their reasons with regard to Wikipedia policies. Second, the argument to delete it seems to be a continuation of the issues that started in January this year, involving WP:SOCKPUPPETeering by User:hAl, who was blocked indefinitely last November. Thirdly, IMHO, the material is valid as, although it expresses an opinion, is well sourced and the opinion is attributed to notable sources in the topic area. Please add your comments below as to why you think these opinions should not be reported in this article. -- Nigelj ( talk) 17:34, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Of the two sources used, The Source does seem to be a blog, run by Jason Melton. WP:RS says about blogs, "Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications". So, who is Jason Melton? Is he an established expert? Has he been published elsewhere? He has clearly put a lot of thought into his work at The Source and this is not about a WP:BLP, so we could use him, but maybe what is said should be attributed directly to him, like "Jason Melton, writing in his blog The Source, has said..." The other source has been renamed to TechRights and we should update the ref to reflect this. It has two editors, Roy Schestowitz and Shane Coyle [3] and so, presumably, an editorial policy. Even under its previous name, it proclaimed, "“Boycott Novell” is not a blog". [4] It is clearly a partisan site, but that is the point of WP:NPOV - "representing all significant views fairly, proportionately, and without bias". Clearly, the views of the FLOSS community on a subject like Moonlight are significant. The question is, do these refs, and our treatment of them, represent these views? -- Nigelj ( talk) 20:32, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
OK, so which are the best sources to use to summarise the position? Is the Fedora position enough to represent the views of the entire open source community? If not, are these two sites the only others we could use? Are there any non-blog, properly editorialised statements out there, or just a lot of stuff from private individuals? If the latter, are any of them established, published experts in the field (even if these comments are self-published)? N.B. An admin has semi-protected the article so that only established users can edit it, i.e. not IP users and not newly-created user accounts. So we need to decide what it will say here, on Talk. (Of course, they will have protected the 'wrong version', see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/The_Wrong_Version ! -- Nigelj ( talk) 21:49, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
Why does the section on "Moonlight in other distributions" not contain information on Moonlight in other distributions? Whether or not you consider childish blogs to be credible and cite-able sources for Wikipedia, surely they're well outside the scope of that section? More relevant would be information on the packages in Gentoo, Debian, Ubuntu, openSUSE, Mandriva, etc? Either the section is mistitled and the article requires some clear indication elsewhere of Moonlight's general availability in distributions, or the section title is correct but most of the current content (outside the comments on Debian and Fedora) is completely out of scope & should be merged elsewhere, moved into a new "criticism" section, or dropped? 78.105.105.80 ( talk) 21:59, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
Yikes! A lot has happened since I saw this page earlier today. I'm not sure where to put this in the conversation, so I guess adding it here is as good as any place. I was under the impression that since Microsoft has published a Community Promise over the core components of .NET (which would cover the Mono VM and core libraries in Moonlight) and because XAML is under Microsoft's Open Specification Promise (also granting patent rights for 0-cost), added to the fact that they have contributed MS-PL'd (a Free Software license with a patent grant) code implementing the Silverlight Controls and the fact that 2D renderers have been implemented ad-nauseum for decades that it would be pretty unlikely that Microsoft could have *any* patents on the core of Moonlight that they could use to destroy it (assuming they even wanted to, and let's be clear, they have *contributed to the project*). Given that and the fact that the covenant talks about the Microsoft Codec blob, that the only real criticism that holds any water is that Microsoft isn't allowing third-parties to distribute *their* codec blob. Pretty evil, I know. Think of the kittens! Seriously, though, does *anyone* have any patents or anything else that they can find that could be used against Moonlight that would not fall under the MCP, OSP, or their MS-PL code contributions? I think that the only real valid criticisms would have to make use of such documentation to be anything other than fear mongering. BrianRandal ( talk) 23:33, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
One last thing point: it would be trivial for anyone to come up with "criticism" of *any* project (Microsoft hasn't promised not to sue the WINE project, so let's FUD it to death on Wikipedia! It *might* infringe patents!) if you didn't have to support it with cold hard facts. I'm also under the impression that Wikipedia doesn't allow these sorts of unsubstantiated criticisms against living persons and I would imagine the same should apply for "living" projects (e.g. projects that are still under active development). BrianRandal ( talk) 23:39, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
Disclosure: I am User:130.57.22.201. I just created this account like Nigelj suggested. NovellGuy ( talk) 15:12, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure this dispute will never come to a conclusion between me and and User:70.226.165.186 (he claims his friend's blogs are credible, while I and others do not) and that he will continue to try and edit-war on both this article and (as I caught him doing a few minutes ago), edit-warring on the Mono_(software) article as well. Time to call for WP:Arbitration? Or is there some other step we can try first? NovellGuy ( talk) 15:17, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
I have reviewed several dozen "articles" from this Techrights/BoycottNovell site, and my conclusion is that it is not credible. My perception is that the author is a controversy junkie scavenging for hits, and links from Wikipedia only serve to feed his habit. If this site has been used as a reference for other Wikipedia articles, it should be removed. And no, I'm not a shill for anyone. Just someone who doesn't eat BS for breakfast. Maghnus ( talk) 19:48, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
OK, guys. Let's get some facts straight. I have referenced a lot of Wikipedia policies in the precious section (probably too many for you to have read and internalised yet), but here are two more that are very relevant: WP:AGF and WP:NPA. I won't expand them, so you have to go and read them. These (and other) policies are enforced by blocks from admins. Second, I am not an admin, I'm just a passer-by trying to help. Third, you will never find an admin who will come here, tell you who's right in a content argument like this and then enforce the best text in the article for you. Content decisions always move forward by consensus, there is no one else here to decide on the wording apart from us. Edit warring won't work, and nor will trying to get your 'enemies' blocked. Arbitration comes way down the line after all else has failed, and then usually only hands out decisions on behaviour and attitude, not on a one-off content issue like this. We haven't really started solving the content issue here yet.
So, as an ordinary editor like you, I have an opinion: it is that we do need to cover criticism of the way the deals between MS and Novell over Mono and Moonlight were seen to disadvantage other distros, to place unusual requirements or dangers onto Linux users and FLOSS developers, and were seen by some to be an attempt to undermine the whole free-software edifice. These viewpoints may have been proven wrong already, or may be so in the future, or they may have been ill-founded in the first place, but I am certain that they existed and should be recorded here in this article. The next question is, which are the sources we are going to base this coverage on? One day someone may write a scholarly book outlining all the issues and we could use that, but in the interim, we will probably have to use the partisan primary sources on the web. Then we have to decide which ones are most notable, written by the most notable commentators, and which counter-arguments too, the most notable of the 'other side'. That's what we need here now: some URLs to the proposed sources, with discussion as to why they're the best, and what points we can use them to source. Everybody will have to be prepared to compromise and horse-trade: 'If you use X to say A, then I insist on quoting B from Y'. I have seen arguments get down to the number of refs from each side, the number of points made, even the number of words. Get your best ammunition ready, and let's get compromising and building something. (I have to go out for the evening, and I think (it was a long time ago) that I probably originally wrote the passage that you guys have been revert-warring, so you have my some-years-old input already - I hope you are more up-to-date and can do better) -- Nigelj ( talk) 16:09, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
I take it by the 5 days of silence that no one else has found any reliable sources for this either? BrianRandal ( talk) 01:27, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
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I have just modified 2 external links on Moonlight (runtime). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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