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Monk's Mound is the largest surviving mound within Cahokia Mounds State Historic Site. There is no reason for the two articles to be separate from each other and if someone wants to merge them, I would cheer them on. Bigturtle 18:08, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Merge them. Most of the info repeats anways.
Yesterday a pretty poor article was replaced by one which I think would have passed the WP:GOOD article process. Since then, and with very few edit summaries explaining why, it has been changed in a way which changes it considerably (eg reverting the statement of 'there is no evidence of significant settlement' to 'there is evidence'. I think a lot of this has to do with Marburg72's own personal experience and a misunderstanding of Wikipedia policies and guidelines. He has stated elsewhere that he supports the truth, which is laudable in one sense, but I believe has led him to edit in line with his understanding of 'the truth' (an elusive goal normally). For instance, he (twice at least) removed a quote sourced from a university press book co-authored by the dean of Cahokia archaeology because he didn't believe the statement was accurate. He has very strong views on what is the 'truth' here about recent excavations, and it is understandably difficult for him to be objective about something in which he has been heavily involved and has very strong feelings. I am sure that he deserves the credit he has been given for his work with the Cahokia Archaeology Society, but personal knowledge cannot be a source for Wikipedia. I also have serious problems with his insistence on adding his personal web site [1] here and elsewhere. I'll ignore the conflict of interest in his adding his own website as it is the site itself that is the problem. First, it's a personal website, and it is rare for those to be acceptable as either sources or external links. (see WP:LINKSTOAVOID. Another editor has pointed out that it includes "much incorrect information", which is true. It is also [[WP:FRINGE]. For instance, it refers to "expert Rick Osmon, the host of the Out of Place Artifact show called OOPA LOOPA CAFE". The 'Out of Place Artifact' more or less makes it clear Osmon is fringe, and I'd question the use of 'expert'. Osmon also publishes in the cult archaeology journal Ancient American [2] and is clearly not a reliable source. Marburgy2/Vince Barrows [3] appears on his radio show from time to time according to his website. The website also treats as genuine fringe stuff such as the Walam Olum (with no mention of recent criticism and an implicit claim that someone who has now acknowledged it is a hoax still supports it), the Grave Creek Tablets, Burrows Cave (rejected as a hoax even by most people who support hyperdiffusionists like Barry Fell) etc. Sure, there is a lot of hard work in it, but it doesn't belong as a source or link in Wikipedia. Doug Weller ( talk) 08:42, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Also, you have been told that your personal website (and it is a personal website, I clicked 'About Me' on the top menu and there you were) is not a reliable source, and you keep reinstating it. If you want to argue the case, go to WP:RSN. Doug Weller ( talk) 17:15, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Please take the discussions of editors' behavior to more appropriate venues: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Marburg72 Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#user:_Marburg72, and Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppets/David_Trochos, as well as the editors' talk pages. -- Ronz ( talk) 16:46, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
People might want to look at the history of this page. Doug Weller ( talk) 21:35, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
This is a minor point, but the quoted area figures don't add up- if the mound is 291 meters by 236 meters, that's 68676 square meters, or 6.87 hectares, or 17 acres. Is my math wrong? This makes it noticeably larger in area than the 13 acres of the Great Pyramid. TriNotch ( talk) 15:18, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Reluctantly, I have to agree with Parkwells' decision to move "Monk's Mound" to "Monks Mound". That is indeed the official version of the name, and the fact that the official website gives "reconstruction's" as the plural of "reconstruction" indicates a consistent, if unconventional, grammatical logic. David Trochos ( talk) 22:40, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
here in the Article I can read, that construction happens between 900 - 950 CE. But in the own Article Cahokia History it is mentioned, that constructions of mounds don't happen before 1050. This is a difference over 100 Years and one of this Informations must be wrong. Please forgive me my bad english. -- Hartmann Schedel Prost 10:48, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
nature of the Late Archaic occupation. On the basis of archaeobotanical evidence, Lopinot (Nassaney et al. 1983:107) envisioned "a diverse assortment of subsistence activities, more typical of a generalized base camp than a specialized extractive camp." Others concluded "that the best interpretation of the Cahokia Late Archaic remains is still one of a series of intermittent, relatively short-duration occupations during different seasons of the year" (Nassaney et al. 1983:1 13). The data from the ICT-II Archaic Block are insufficient to support either postulate." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.36.249 ( talk) 01:48, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
around 1200 B.C. These dates, together with recovered diagnostic lithic artifacts, firmly place the Late Archaic habitation of the tract in the early portion of the Prairie Lake phase (Nassaney et al. 1983: 109). A diversity of multi-season subsistence and maintenance activities was identified for this occupation." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.36.249 ( talk) 03:23, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
Excavations on the Third Terrace and Front Ramp of Monks Mound, Cahokia: A Personal Narrative, ©2009 Illinois Archaeological Survey, Inc., Illinois Archaeology, vol. 21, pp. 1–89
The boatstone is an old artifact which was popular during the Archaic period.
This article continued about a dog skelton found on monks mound: "Compared with the dogs submitted by William Haag, this Monks Mound mutt, based on these few measurements, falls nicely within range of Haag’s Archaic Kentucky and Alabama shell heap dogs [Paul Parmalee, pers. comm. October 8, 1971]."
"There was prehistoric debris, since the soil came from village area borrow pits below, but all of this was thoroughly mixed. A fragment of an Archaic period artifact was found near a French gunflint. The only useful analysis of this material was to identify the most recent prehistoric pottery for a terminal date of mound activity, but even that was questionable because of historic mixing from the surface. This decision to use earth-moving equipment was widely questioned."
"All of these post pits and the dog burial (F50) are aligned 5 degrees to the south of the east–west orientation of earlier features, a small but consistent difference, and many of them on surface M-2 cut earlier features of the Major Structure and of the palisade... Why did the Cahokians bury those dogs? Was it to bring them closer where they could be placated with ritual, as well as offerings to clear the way for the traveler on the Path? Was it an effort to block non-elite ghosts who tried to climb the mound? We can only guess."
Also identified in the article are deep pits dug on monks mound with "a modified digging stick or wooden pestle of the Eastern Woodland tradition". How did woodland pits get onto the top of the mound if it was not built yet?
"The artifacts recovered in association with any given stage surface are used to address questions of chronology (Hally, D.J., 1993. The territorial size of Mississippian chiefdoms. In: Stoltman, J.B. (Ed.), Archaeology of Eastern North America: Papers in Honor of Stephen Williams, Archaeological Report No. 25, Mississippi Department of Archives and History, Jackson, pp. 143–168.),
"The complexity of mound construction, as revealed through geoarchaeological analyses, indicates the cultural significance of these mounds may be as well reflected in the earthen construction materials and their arrangement as it is in the artifacts abandoned on their summits." Sarah C. Sherwood, Tristram R. Kidder. The DaVincis of dirt: Geoarchaeological perspectives on Native American mound building in the Mississippi River basin. Journal of Anthropological Archaeology. January 7, 2011.
In summary, Archaic lithics and archaic dog skeleton(s) found on the third terrace of monks mound are worth mention in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.36.249 ( talk) 06:09, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
"the barrow sods, like the North American earthen mounds, are rarely placed in their ‘‘up’’ position, but are more typically inverted with the surface horizon or dark color facing down. These embankment features have been detected in other mound sites especially with the increased use of geophysical techniques in mound contexts (Walker et al., 2008). Bareis (1975: 10) describes similar structures—continuous buttresses or walls or ‘‘discontinuous clay bulwarks (mounds) placed in a ‘retaining’ position at select locations around the south side of the third terrace [of Monks Mound].’’ He suggests that if these structures are offset and placed laterally around the sides of the mound they should allow flat-topped pyramid shapes to be remain stable. He emphasizes the use of clay but does not describe sod. Similarly, as noted above, Coe (1995, Fig 4.28; also see Boudreaux 2005) notes the use of clay buttresses but not sod blocks to create an outline into which sediments were placed to create the Town Creek mound. At Monks Mound, these sod blocks were emplaced with a specific purpose that allowed the mound builders to create a steeply sloping but stable surface. Because of the large size of Monks Mound it may not have been possible to use sod blocks to face the entire mound. Instead, they may have been used in specific locations (as at Shiloh), perhaps where erosion or slope failure was especially problematic (Schilling, 2010). Analysis of macrobotanical remains from the sod blocks used at Monks Mound shows they contain abundant quillwort (Isoetes) megaspores, which indicates they came from cleared locations near the edge of wet or moist areas that are seasonally dry in the summer (Kelly et al., 2009). The most likely source at Monks Mound would be from the meander scar from a relict Mississippi River channel located just to the north of the mound. Alternatively, the sod blocks were excavated from the edges of disturbed borrow areas." See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iso%C3%ABtes —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.36.249 ( talk • contribs)
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https://drloihjournal.blogspot.com/2019/06/monks-mound-at-cahokia-was-built-in-decades-not-250-years-as-previously-thought.html Victor Grigas ( talk) 02:46, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
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Monk's Mound is the largest surviving mound within Cahokia Mounds State Historic Site. There is no reason for the two articles to be separate from each other and if someone wants to merge them, I would cheer them on. Bigturtle 18:08, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Merge them. Most of the info repeats anways.
Yesterday a pretty poor article was replaced by one which I think would have passed the WP:GOOD article process. Since then, and with very few edit summaries explaining why, it has been changed in a way which changes it considerably (eg reverting the statement of 'there is no evidence of significant settlement' to 'there is evidence'. I think a lot of this has to do with Marburg72's own personal experience and a misunderstanding of Wikipedia policies and guidelines. He has stated elsewhere that he supports the truth, which is laudable in one sense, but I believe has led him to edit in line with his understanding of 'the truth' (an elusive goal normally). For instance, he (twice at least) removed a quote sourced from a university press book co-authored by the dean of Cahokia archaeology because he didn't believe the statement was accurate. He has very strong views on what is the 'truth' here about recent excavations, and it is understandably difficult for him to be objective about something in which he has been heavily involved and has very strong feelings. I am sure that he deserves the credit he has been given for his work with the Cahokia Archaeology Society, but personal knowledge cannot be a source for Wikipedia. I also have serious problems with his insistence on adding his personal web site [1] here and elsewhere. I'll ignore the conflict of interest in his adding his own website as it is the site itself that is the problem. First, it's a personal website, and it is rare for those to be acceptable as either sources or external links. (see WP:LINKSTOAVOID. Another editor has pointed out that it includes "much incorrect information", which is true. It is also [[WP:FRINGE]. For instance, it refers to "expert Rick Osmon, the host of the Out of Place Artifact show called OOPA LOOPA CAFE". The 'Out of Place Artifact' more or less makes it clear Osmon is fringe, and I'd question the use of 'expert'. Osmon also publishes in the cult archaeology journal Ancient American [2] and is clearly not a reliable source. Marburgy2/Vince Barrows [3] appears on his radio show from time to time according to his website. The website also treats as genuine fringe stuff such as the Walam Olum (with no mention of recent criticism and an implicit claim that someone who has now acknowledged it is a hoax still supports it), the Grave Creek Tablets, Burrows Cave (rejected as a hoax even by most people who support hyperdiffusionists like Barry Fell) etc. Sure, there is a lot of hard work in it, but it doesn't belong as a source or link in Wikipedia. Doug Weller ( talk) 08:42, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Also, you have been told that your personal website (and it is a personal website, I clicked 'About Me' on the top menu and there you were) is not a reliable source, and you keep reinstating it. If you want to argue the case, go to WP:RSN. Doug Weller ( talk) 17:15, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Please take the discussions of editors' behavior to more appropriate venues: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Marburg72 Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#user:_Marburg72, and Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppets/David_Trochos, as well as the editors' talk pages. -- Ronz ( talk) 16:46, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
People might want to look at the history of this page. Doug Weller ( talk) 21:35, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
This is a minor point, but the quoted area figures don't add up- if the mound is 291 meters by 236 meters, that's 68676 square meters, or 6.87 hectares, or 17 acres. Is my math wrong? This makes it noticeably larger in area than the 13 acres of the Great Pyramid. TriNotch ( talk) 15:18, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Reluctantly, I have to agree with Parkwells' decision to move "Monk's Mound" to "Monks Mound". That is indeed the official version of the name, and the fact that the official website gives "reconstruction's" as the plural of "reconstruction" indicates a consistent, if unconventional, grammatical logic. David Trochos ( talk) 22:40, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
here in the Article I can read, that construction happens between 900 - 950 CE. But in the own Article Cahokia History it is mentioned, that constructions of mounds don't happen before 1050. This is a difference over 100 Years and one of this Informations must be wrong. Please forgive me my bad english. -- Hartmann Schedel Prost 10:48, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
nature of the Late Archaic occupation. On the basis of archaeobotanical evidence, Lopinot (Nassaney et al. 1983:107) envisioned "a diverse assortment of subsistence activities, more typical of a generalized base camp than a specialized extractive camp." Others concluded "that the best interpretation of the Cahokia Late Archaic remains is still one of a series of intermittent, relatively short-duration occupations during different seasons of the year" (Nassaney et al. 1983:1 13). The data from the ICT-II Archaic Block are insufficient to support either postulate." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.36.249 ( talk) 01:48, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
around 1200 B.C. These dates, together with recovered diagnostic lithic artifacts, firmly place the Late Archaic habitation of the tract in the early portion of the Prairie Lake phase (Nassaney et al. 1983: 109). A diversity of multi-season subsistence and maintenance activities was identified for this occupation." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.36.249 ( talk) 03:23, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
Excavations on the Third Terrace and Front Ramp of Monks Mound, Cahokia: A Personal Narrative, ©2009 Illinois Archaeological Survey, Inc., Illinois Archaeology, vol. 21, pp. 1–89
The boatstone is an old artifact which was popular during the Archaic period.
This article continued about a dog skelton found on monks mound: "Compared with the dogs submitted by William Haag, this Monks Mound mutt, based on these few measurements, falls nicely within range of Haag’s Archaic Kentucky and Alabama shell heap dogs [Paul Parmalee, pers. comm. October 8, 1971]."
"There was prehistoric debris, since the soil came from village area borrow pits below, but all of this was thoroughly mixed. A fragment of an Archaic period artifact was found near a French gunflint. The only useful analysis of this material was to identify the most recent prehistoric pottery for a terminal date of mound activity, but even that was questionable because of historic mixing from the surface. This decision to use earth-moving equipment was widely questioned."
"All of these post pits and the dog burial (F50) are aligned 5 degrees to the south of the east–west orientation of earlier features, a small but consistent difference, and many of them on surface M-2 cut earlier features of the Major Structure and of the palisade... Why did the Cahokians bury those dogs? Was it to bring them closer where they could be placated with ritual, as well as offerings to clear the way for the traveler on the Path? Was it an effort to block non-elite ghosts who tried to climb the mound? We can only guess."
Also identified in the article are deep pits dug on monks mound with "a modified digging stick or wooden pestle of the Eastern Woodland tradition". How did woodland pits get onto the top of the mound if it was not built yet?
"The artifacts recovered in association with any given stage surface are used to address questions of chronology (Hally, D.J., 1993. The territorial size of Mississippian chiefdoms. In: Stoltman, J.B. (Ed.), Archaeology of Eastern North America: Papers in Honor of Stephen Williams, Archaeological Report No. 25, Mississippi Department of Archives and History, Jackson, pp. 143–168.),
"The complexity of mound construction, as revealed through geoarchaeological analyses, indicates the cultural significance of these mounds may be as well reflected in the earthen construction materials and their arrangement as it is in the artifacts abandoned on their summits." Sarah C. Sherwood, Tristram R. Kidder. The DaVincis of dirt: Geoarchaeological perspectives on Native American mound building in the Mississippi River basin. Journal of Anthropological Archaeology. January 7, 2011.
In summary, Archaic lithics and archaic dog skeleton(s) found on the third terrace of monks mound are worth mention in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.36.249 ( talk) 06:09, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
"the barrow sods, like the North American earthen mounds, are rarely placed in their ‘‘up’’ position, but are more typically inverted with the surface horizon or dark color facing down. These embankment features have been detected in other mound sites especially with the increased use of geophysical techniques in mound contexts (Walker et al., 2008). Bareis (1975: 10) describes similar structures—continuous buttresses or walls or ‘‘discontinuous clay bulwarks (mounds) placed in a ‘retaining’ position at select locations around the south side of the third terrace [of Monks Mound].’’ He suggests that if these structures are offset and placed laterally around the sides of the mound they should allow flat-topped pyramid shapes to be remain stable. He emphasizes the use of clay but does not describe sod. Similarly, as noted above, Coe (1995, Fig 4.28; also see Boudreaux 2005) notes the use of clay buttresses but not sod blocks to create an outline into which sediments were placed to create the Town Creek mound. At Monks Mound, these sod blocks were emplaced with a specific purpose that allowed the mound builders to create a steeply sloping but stable surface. Because of the large size of Monks Mound it may not have been possible to use sod blocks to face the entire mound. Instead, they may have been used in specific locations (as at Shiloh), perhaps where erosion or slope failure was especially problematic (Schilling, 2010). Analysis of macrobotanical remains from the sod blocks used at Monks Mound shows they contain abundant quillwort (Isoetes) megaspores, which indicates they came from cleared locations near the edge of wet or moist areas that are seasonally dry in the summer (Kelly et al., 2009). The most likely source at Monks Mound would be from the meander scar from a relict Mississippi River channel located just to the north of the mound. Alternatively, the sod blocks were excavated from the edges of disturbed borrow areas." See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iso%C3%ABtes —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.36.249 ( talk • contribs)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Monks Mound. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 16:37, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
https://drloihjournal.blogspot.com/2019/06/monks-mound-at-cahokia-was-built-in-decades-not-250-years-as-previously-thought.html Victor Grigas ( talk) 02:46, 10 January 2022 (UTC)