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Background of the First Mongol Invasion uses 'coffee table' type Encyclopedia of the Mongols that has been pointed out elsewhere in related articles as being unreliable in many parts. 100,000 comes from primary, contemporary sources, and no one in the field believes that. A more scholarly source is needed here. The logistics of such a force - so far from supply lines in a tropical climate - would have been beyond the powers of the Mongol empire, unlike advancing across steppe in Eurasia. Additionally, Hulagu's army in the invasion of the Middle East is generally considered to be the largest single army the Mongols ever mustered, and that was around 50,000. I'll look around and see what I have, but interested parties should also tweak this section. Thanks. 50.111.19.21 ( talk) 02:48, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
@
七战功成: If you can point out any references that explicitly label the overall casualties in any of the invasions as slightly light
or heavy
as you did
here, then please do so here. Furthermore, these are relative terms that need context in order to mean anything. If there are no direct references and no context then these relative terms shouldn't be included. —
MarkH21
talk
03:18, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
the Dai Viet [...] made sure very few Mongol or Chinese soldiers made it out of Vietnam alive.
Many among the Yuan forces drowned or died in battle.
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 18:07, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
What should be in the |result=
parameter of the {{
Infobox military conflict}} template at the top of the article? 02:12, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
Status quo since May 2020:
See Aftermath section
Proposed changes:
Đại Việt victory
Đại Việt and Champa become tributary states of the Yuan dynasty after the first invasion of Đại Việt and the invasion of Champa
Mongols fail to impose greater tributes and direct oversight of internal Đại Việt affairs after the second and third invasions of Đại Việt
Please use the discussion subsection below for responses and threaded discussion, and leave this subsection for one comment or !vote per editor.
In studies of China or of the Mongols, it is recognized that fighting in Vietnam did not go well for the Mongols. Nevertheless, the campaigns are often treated as a success because tributary relations with Dai Viet were eventually resumed. In contrast, Vietnamese historiography makes much of Dai Viet’s military victories over the Mongols, which support the idea of a Vietnamese people united in their struggle against foreign aggression.
— Baldanza, Kathlene (2016). "Chapter 1: A brief history of Annan". Ming China and Vietnam: Negotiating Borders in Early Modern Asia. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1-316-53131-0.
Annam in North Vietnam, and Champa in south Vietnam accepted status as tributary vassals. Punitive campaigns against Burma and Annam in the 1280's, though not always militarily successful, brought reaffirmations of vassalage.
— Hucker, Charles O. (1975). China's Imperial Past: An Introduction to Chinese History and Culture. Stanford University Press. p. 285. ISBN 9780804723534.
Despite the extreme difficulty of the tropical heat and the unfamiliar landscape, the Mongol army had success in Burma, Annam in northern Vietnam, and Laos.
— Weatherford, Jack (2005). Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World. New York: Three Rivers Press. p. 212. ISBN 978-0-609-80964-8.
On the second and third Mongol invasions of Đại Việt:The purpose of the Mongols’ first foray into Dai Viet, in 1257, was to open a southern front against the Southern Song dynasty of China. [...] After a Tran prince and countless others were killed, and the capital Dong Kinh (present-day Hanoi) destroyed, Tran Du Tong submitted. The following year, the Tran commenced regular diplomatic relations with the Mongol court, sending an embassy with tributary gifts of local goods.
— Baldanza, Kathlene (2016). "Chapter 1: A brief history of Annan". Ming China and Vietnam: Negotiating Borders in Early Modern Asia. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1-316-53131-0.
The Mongols were not merely seeking tributary relations with Dai Viet along the lines of the Song dynasty. Their demands on the Tran government were unprecedented and far more onerous than typical demands or tributary missions and gifts by northern states. [...] Following their conquest of the Song, the Yuan court renewed their unprecedented demands on the Tran dynasty. [...] The Yuan decided to deal with the uncooperative Tran Kham by appointing their own “King of Annan” from afar. [...] After initial successes, including once more occupying and looting the capital, Toghan made the decision to retreat with the forward troops. [...] Even after these costly campaigns in difficult conditions, the Yuan were able to neither extend their borders into Dai Viet nor place their puppet emperor on the throne.
— Baldanza, Kathlene (2016). "Chapter 1: A brief history of Annan". Ming China and Vietnam: Negotiating Borders in Early Modern Asia. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1-316-53131-0.
In late 1288 the Tran Emperor sent an envoy to China, offering tribute to the Mongol court in an attempt to prevent further invasions of Vietnam. In a significant conciliatory gesture the Vietnamese handed over captured Mongol officerslooks like a joke. What was the amount of the so called tribute? Half the rice crop of the country, each year, or some prisoners, once ??? Pldx1 ( talk) 08:14, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance.The body of the article is where we include information in detail to handle "complexity". When there is controversial content it absolutely should be relegated to the appropriate section so it can be neutrally presented according to policies and guidelines. It would seem a better goal would be edits to facilitate a positive peer review for promotion of a vital article instead of having a moot discussion. Otr500 ( talk) 06:16, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
@ YLoGM: Regarding your move here of this article from "Mongol invasions of Vietnam" to "Mongol invasions of Đại Việt", the new name ignores that part of this article is also about the invasion of Champa which is in modern-day Vietnam but was separate from Đại Việt at the time. In effect, the new title would be narrowing the scope of the article and necessitate a split for the Champa part into a new article.
If you still believe that this is the ideal course of action, then you can still formally propose it here on the talk page. — MarkH21 talk 09:24, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
article titles are written using the English language. A case for a move would need to be made with respect to both issues. Regards, Cinderella157 ( talk) 10:52, 2 November 2021 (UTC) PS Please note the fullness of Wikipedia:Article titles and not just that quoted. Cinderella157 ( talk) 10:56, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
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![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Background of the First Mongol Invasion uses 'coffee table' type Encyclopedia of the Mongols that has been pointed out elsewhere in related articles as being unreliable in many parts. 100,000 comes from primary, contemporary sources, and no one in the field believes that. A more scholarly source is needed here. The logistics of such a force - so far from supply lines in a tropical climate - would have been beyond the powers of the Mongol empire, unlike advancing across steppe in Eurasia. Additionally, Hulagu's army in the invasion of the Middle East is generally considered to be the largest single army the Mongols ever mustered, and that was around 50,000. I'll look around and see what I have, but interested parties should also tweak this section. Thanks. 50.111.19.21 ( talk) 02:48, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
@
七战功成: If you can point out any references that explicitly label the overall casualties in any of the invasions as slightly light
or heavy
as you did
here, then please do so here. Furthermore, these are relative terms that need context in order to mean anything. If there are no direct references and no context then these relative terms shouldn't be included. —
MarkH21
talk
03:18, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
the Dai Viet [...] made sure very few Mongol or Chinese soldiers made it out of Vietnam alive.
Many among the Yuan forces drowned or died in battle.
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 18:07, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
What should be in the |result=
parameter of the {{
Infobox military conflict}} template at the top of the article? 02:12, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
Status quo since May 2020:
See Aftermath section
Proposed changes:
Đại Việt victory
Đại Việt and Champa become tributary states of the Yuan dynasty after the first invasion of Đại Việt and the invasion of Champa
Mongols fail to impose greater tributes and direct oversight of internal Đại Việt affairs after the second and third invasions of Đại Việt
Please use the discussion subsection below for responses and threaded discussion, and leave this subsection for one comment or !vote per editor.
In studies of China or of the Mongols, it is recognized that fighting in Vietnam did not go well for the Mongols. Nevertheless, the campaigns are often treated as a success because tributary relations with Dai Viet were eventually resumed. In contrast, Vietnamese historiography makes much of Dai Viet’s military victories over the Mongols, which support the idea of a Vietnamese people united in their struggle against foreign aggression.
— Baldanza, Kathlene (2016). "Chapter 1: A brief history of Annan". Ming China and Vietnam: Negotiating Borders in Early Modern Asia. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1-316-53131-0.
Annam in North Vietnam, and Champa in south Vietnam accepted status as tributary vassals. Punitive campaigns against Burma and Annam in the 1280's, though not always militarily successful, brought reaffirmations of vassalage.
— Hucker, Charles O. (1975). China's Imperial Past: An Introduction to Chinese History and Culture. Stanford University Press. p. 285. ISBN 9780804723534.
Despite the extreme difficulty of the tropical heat and the unfamiliar landscape, the Mongol army had success in Burma, Annam in northern Vietnam, and Laos.
— Weatherford, Jack (2005). Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World. New York: Three Rivers Press. p. 212. ISBN 978-0-609-80964-8.
On the second and third Mongol invasions of Đại Việt:The purpose of the Mongols’ first foray into Dai Viet, in 1257, was to open a southern front against the Southern Song dynasty of China. [...] After a Tran prince and countless others were killed, and the capital Dong Kinh (present-day Hanoi) destroyed, Tran Du Tong submitted. The following year, the Tran commenced regular diplomatic relations with the Mongol court, sending an embassy with tributary gifts of local goods.
— Baldanza, Kathlene (2016). "Chapter 1: A brief history of Annan". Ming China and Vietnam: Negotiating Borders in Early Modern Asia. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1-316-53131-0.
The Mongols were not merely seeking tributary relations with Dai Viet along the lines of the Song dynasty. Their demands on the Tran government were unprecedented and far more onerous than typical demands or tributary missions and gifts by northern states. [...] Following their conquest of the Song, the Yuan court renewed their unprecedented demands on the Tran dynasty. [...] The Yuan decided to deal with the uncooperative Tran Kham by appointing their own “King of Annan” from afar. [...] After initial successes, including once more occupying and looting the capital, Toghan made the decision to retreat with the forward troops. [...] Even after these costly campaigns in difficult conditions, the Yuan were able to neither extend their borders into Dai Viet nor place their puppet emperor on the throne.
— Baldanza, Kathlene (2016). "Chapter 1: A brief history of Annan". Ming China and Vietnam: Negotiating Borders in Early Modern Asia. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1-316-53131-0.
In late 1288 the Tran Emperor sent an envoy to China, offering tribute to the Mongol court in an attempt to prevent further invasions of Vietnam. In a significant conciliatory gesture the Vietnamese handed over captured Mongol officerslooks like a joke. What was the amount of the so called tribute? Half the rice crop of the country, each year, or some prisoners, once ??? Pldx1 ( talk) 08:14, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance.The body of the article is where we include information in detail to handle "complexity". When there is controversial content it absolutely should be relegated to the appropriate section so it can be neutrally presented according to policies and guidelines. It would seem a better goal would be edits to facilitate a positive peer review for promotion of a vital article instead of having a moot discussion. Otr500 ( talk) 06:16, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
@ YLoGM: Regarding your move here of this article from "Mongol invasions of Vietnam" to "Mongol invasions of Đại Việt", the new name ignores that part of this article is also about the invasion of Champa which is in modern-day Vietnam but was separate from Đại Việt at the time. In effect, the new title would be narrowing the scope of the article and necessitate a split for the Champa part into a new article.
If you still believe that this is the ideal course of action, then you can still formally propose it here on the talk page. — MarkH21 talk 09:24, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
article titles are written using the English language. A case for a move would need to be made with respect to both issues. Regards, Cinderella157 ( talk) 10:52, 2 November 2021 (UTC) PS Please note the fullness of Wikipedia:Article titles and not just that quoted. Cinderella157 ( talk) 10:56, 2 November 2021 (UTC)