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I put together this article after coming across the tale of Moncacht-Apé while perusing an old French copy of Diderot's Encyclopédie. As you would suspect by the previous lack of a Wikipedia article, the story of Moncacht-Apé is not well known and seems to have been the subject of little historical research. Here's some basic background that will help future editors:
I have tried to write the article in a manner that conveys the uncertain veracity of (a) the existence of Moncacht-Apé and (b) the extent of his travels without bogging down the prose in subjunctives. If other editors can propose a better way to write an article about a person who may be mere legend, please do. But without regard to the truth or fiction of the tale, I think Moncacht-Apé merits an article if only for the influence his purported travels seem to have had on European and American explorers who knew the story. Let's try to describe that influence in particular.
One other interesting aspect of the Moncacht-Apé story that I have so far neglected is his telling (in the account in Le Page's book) of a legend among Native Americans in the Northwest of a former land bridge that had connected their region with farther-off lands. The discussion of this part of the tale that I've seen (e.g., Arthur's article) seems to interpret it as referring to the prehistoric land bridge that connected Asia and America across what's now the Bering Strait. But it seems likelier that the legend may actually be the first account of the still extant legend of the Bridge of the Gods (land bridge). If we can find any sources discussing this, I think we should include a new section on this part of the story.
To get this article more exposure and attract more editors, we should probably edit the Lewis and Clark article to mention those explorers' consultation of Le Page's account of Moncacht-Apé's journey. It may also be useful to start a version of this article on the French Wikipedia as many sources are only available in French.
Feis-Kontrol ( talk) 04:55, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
I've been asked to review this article and will provide a peer review here. The article is clearly under construction and has undergone a relatively quick expansion. The writing is good with few grammatical mistakes, parenthetical references, and other pitfalls and infect many articles. I'll give some general thoughts on the article and any specific issues I see will be outlined below.
As stated previously the writing is very good and I know that the authors are looking for help from a historian to expand the article. I think this is off to a good start and there is potential for this article to reach GA class or higher if it is given the proper attention. H1nkles ( talk) citius altius fortius 21:29, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
If Moncacht Ape did make this trip, I wonder about what year it was. The Cascadia Earthquake and Tsunami was in 1700. If he was there in the years immediately following, it seems likely that event would have gotten into his narrative in some form. That might imply that he was there prior to the earthquake, making the 1690s or 1680s likely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:980:C004:5410:9064:5BE5:9876:BEB8 ( talk) 16:41, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
Who were the White people in Moncacht Ape's story? History doesn't give us much reason to imagine there were Europeans visiting the Pacific Northwest on an annual basis in the late 17th century. The story says the people were white, small, and bearded. It describes them as coming in two vessels. They have at least a few firearms -- two of the eleven killed were so armed, according to the story -- but that their firearms were heavier and perhaps less advanced than those of the French and Spanish colonists of North America. I was wondering if they might have been Ainu.
Firearms were available in Japan during that era. Ainu men did not shaving, so had full beards. They would have been physically smaller in stature. Ainu are noted as being lighter skinned than ethnic Japanese. During that period of history they were still somewhat politically independent from the Japanese, and economically filled a merchant niche between Japan and outside cultures. They were historically fishermen, who had vessels that might fit with descriptions of large "sailed" canoes. These vessels might fit not only with Moncacht Ape's story, but also with stories other Native Americans told Europeans about vessels on the Pacific Northwest coast.
There might even be a connection regarding the search for the bad-smelling yellow wood, in that Mugwort apparently had a prominent role in their culture. That's genus Artemesia, which includes Wormwoods, at least some of which can be used to produce yellow dyes, and generally have fragrance and bitter taste.
Did Ainu merchants or fisherman frequent the Pacific Northwest? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:980:C004:5410:9064:5BE5:9876:BEB8 ( talk) 17:06, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Moncacht-Apé article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I put together this article after coming across the tale of Moncacht-Apé while perusing an old French copy of Diderot's Encyclopédie. As you would suspect by the previous lack of a Wikipedia article, the story of Moncacht-Apé is not well known and seems to have been the subject of little historical research. Here's some basic background that will help future editors:
I have tried to write the article in a manner that conveys the uncertain veracity of (a) the existence of Moncacht-Apé and (b) the extent of his travels without bogging down the prose in subjunctives. If other editors can propose a better way to write an article about a person who may be mere legend, please do. But without regard to the truth or fiction of the tale, I think Moncacht-Apé merits an article if only for the influence his purported travels seem to have had on European and American explorers who knew the story. Let's try to describe that influence in particular.
One other interesting aspect of the Moncacht-Apé story that I have so far neglected is his telling (in the account in Le Page's book) of a legend among Native Americans in the Northwest of a former land bridge that had connected their region with farther-off lands. The discussion of this part of the tale that I've seen (e.g., Arthur's article) seems to interpret it as referring to the prehistoric land bridge that connected Asia and America across what's now the Bering Strait. But it seems likelier that the legend may actually be the first account of the still extant legend of the Bridge of the Gods (land bridge). If we can find any sources discussing this, I think we should include a new section on this part of the story.
To get this article more exposure and attract more editors, we should probably edit the Lewis and Clark article to mention those explorers' consultation of Le Page's account of Moncacht-Apé's journey. It may also be useful to start a version of this article on the French Wikipedia as many sources are only available in French.
Feis-Kontrol ( talk) 04:55, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
I've been asked to review this article and will provide a peer review here. The article is clearly under construction and has undergone a relatively quick expansion. The writing is good with few grammatical mistakes, parenthetical references, and other pitfalls and infect many articles. I'll give some general thoughts on the article and any specific issues I see will be outlined below.
As stated previously the writing is very good and I know that the authors are looking for help from a historian to expand the article. I think this is off to a good start and there is potential for this article to reach GA class or higher if it is given the proper attention. H1nkles ( talk) citius altius fortius 21:29, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
If Moncacht Ape did make this trip, I wonder about what year it was. The Cascadia Earthquake and Tsunami was in 1700. If he was there in the years immediately following, it seems likely that event would have gotten into his narrative in some form. That might imply that he was there prior to the earthquake, making the 1690s or 1680s likely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:980:C004:5410:9064:5BE5:9876:BEB8 ( talk) 16:41, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
Who were the White people in Moncacht Ape's story? History doesn't give us much reason to imagine there were Europeans visiting the Pacific Northwest on an annual basis in the late 17th century. The story says the people were white, small, and bearded. It describes them as coming in two vessels. They have at least a few firearms -- two of the eleven killed were so armed, according to the story -- but that their firearms were heavier and perhaps less advanced than those of the French and Spanish colonists of North America. I was wondering if they might have been Ainu.
Firearms were available in Japan during that era. Ainu men did not shaving, so had full beards. They would have been physically smaller in stature. Ainu are noted as being lighter skinned than ethnic Japanese. During that period of history they were still somewhat politically independent from the Japanese, and economically filled a merchant niche between Japan and outside cultures. They were historically fishermen, who had vessels that might fit with descriptions of large "sailed" canoes. These vessels might fit not only with Moncacht Ape's story, but also with stories other Native Americans told Europeans about vessels on the Pacific Northwest coast.
There might even be a connection regarding the search for the bad-smelling yellow wood, in that Mugwort apparently had a prominent role in their culture. That's genus Artemesia, which includes Wormwoods, at least some of which can be used to produce yellow dyes, and generally have fragrance and bitter taste.
Did Ainu merchants or fisherman frequent the Pacific Northwest? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:980:C004:5410:9064:5BE5:9876:BEB8 ( talk) 17:06, 21 October 2020 (UTC)