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The link Swedish monarch at present merely redirects to List of Swedish monarchs. Though that is intented to provide a more extensive article on the Swedish monarchy and provide part of the historical structure.
Historical institutional structure (up to 1974):
Present constitutional structure:
-- Mic 05:24 Apr 30, 2003 (UTC)
King of Sweden → Swedish monarchy - "King of Sweden" is a bad title because the rules of succession to the Swedish throne allow for female succession to the throne. The current heir apparent, Crown Princess Victoria, will therefor be titulated Queen of Sweden. See for example British monarchy. / Jebur 01:01, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. violet/riga (t) 20:02, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
When Crown Princess Victoria has children, will they be of the "House of Westling" so named after her husband, or will they adopt the surname of her maternal father and be of the Royal House of Bernadotte?
The sv:Konselj meetings of cabinet and monarch should be described in this article. / Urbourbo ( talk) 08:54, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
Thanx for good work on the article! With this edit though, the top got screwed up: a big blank space to the right of the infobox and under the hatnote. I don't know how you did that, or how to fix it. SergeWoodzing ( talk) 17:05, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Monarchy of Norway#Titles and styles needs to be expanded by an expert to the standard of Monarchy of Sweden#Titles and Monarchy of Denmark#Style. Help needed.-- Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy ( talk) 17:48, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
SergeWoodzing has reverted a few of my edits. But none of his assertions are factually correct in either case.
First, state and government are not interchangeable terms as the ignorant Woodzing apparently believes. The English language divide makes this issue particularly tricky in this case as ”government” in US English refers to what in Britain and Europe is known as the state (
Swedish: staten). Furthermore, the use of Caps in English and Swedish are not symmetric. It is ironic that Woodzing frequently complains about other editors’ poor use of
Swinglish, when he has little knowledge about English capitalizations rules more than his gut feeling. The Use of Caps for State and Government when referring to official institutions or organs is consistent with the usage of those terms in the English translation of the Instrument of Government published by the Riksdag, which is a reference on the article page.
Again Woodzing should pay attention to the official translations of official Swedish terminology by consulting "Utrikes namnbok", published by the
Ministry of Foreign Affairs which is also made available free of charge on the Internet. The
European Union also has similar materials about their manuals of style in all their official languages.
Second, as to Kungl. Vvs. Kungliga: Kungl. is merely a short form for Kungliga, nothing more and nothing less. In case of doubt, why not have a look at the Swedish Academy’s SAOB (
[1]), and the note the usage of the term in the
law from 1921 about guardianship of royals below the age of majority.
Has Woodzing at any time ever contributed to Wikipedia by adding reliable or verifiable sources to any of his edits? Otherwise I suspect that he arbitrarily makes his edits simply based on personal preferences and substance be damned.
RicJac (
talk)
21:24, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
26. Usu. with the and capital initial.
a. The body politic as organized for supreme civil rule and government; the political organization which is the basis of civil government. Hence: the supreme civil power or government of a country or nation; the group of people collectively engaged in exercising or administering this
I'm questioning the fact that "Rojalistiska föreningen (Swedish) - Swedish royalist association" is an external link under this article. As far as I know, there is nothing official about that club, it has no governmental, academic, literary or other legitimacy and would tend to get an undue distinction by it's inclusion here on the coattails of this WP article. It's sort of like a fan club of amateurs and I've never seen it taken seriously in all my years of dealing with matters royal in Sweden. -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 00:46, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
Recent expansions have added a lot of info which, albeit valuable and factually accurate, seems to branch off into subjects irrelevant to the topic of this article, such as too much detail on reign accomplishments of certain kings, particularly Gustav I and Gustav II Adolph, while there is not a word about several equally important monarchs, such as the 3 Wittelsbach kings of the 17th century. I removed just a bit of that extra stuff now, along with some exact redundancies, etc. Wouldn't it be better to stick more strictly to topic? -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 14:11, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
My position is that the article now recently has had rather extensive irrelevant material added to it, which is not about the article's subject Monarchy of Sweden but detailed information about the reign accomplishments of certain monarchs, but not of those of many others. My opponent clearly disagrees, alleging that all the info h/s has added is relevant, and intends to keep adding more such (what I consider) irrelevant material which does not belong here, but belongs in the articles about those monarchs (where most or all of it is already covered). It is hard for me to understand how anyone could read this article and find that all that biographic material about monarchs, which does not touch in any way upon the monarchy itself, and has nothing to do with the subject Monarchy of Sweden, could be relevant, and that more such irrelevant info should be added to make the article swell out even more drastically beyond subject range.
Since I am the only person who at length has corrected ("Notes to self") my opponent's rather extensive Swenglish in this article, which one often needs to know Swedish to be able to fully understand and correct well, my attitude toward that is that I always will be glad to help out when relevant info is added to any article, but it feels very tedious to be burdened with making extensive corrections when added material, as I see it, is not relevant. My opponent has also shown anything but appreciation for my courteous efforts in that regard, so anyone could easily be tempted to quote Streisand and ask oneself "Why bother?". -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 23:29, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
I was asked to give an opinion here about the expanded content. I'm not sure if I'm too late to be of any use (assuming, that is, my comments would be useful, anyway!).
I don't know enough about Sweden's monarchy to say anything about the history section here. I'd say, though, the history should confine itself to moments of importance in the institution's past/development, rather than including more tangentially related histories of individual monarchs.
Other than that, I don't see much here that could be considered excess. Maybe only the section on royal residences goes into too much detail about the residences, detail that's (presumably) covered at the articles on those palaces. -- Ħ MIESIANIACAL 21:02, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
I see very little merit to this second round of a third opinion, but here we go again… It is difficult to argue with an opponent who deals with sweeping general notions and never in specifics. It would be prudent for an opponent to make his share of due diligence before levying broad criticism. As I mentioned in the thread above, my intention has been to write a history section much in the vein of what can be found over at Monarchy of the United Kingdom and Monarchy of Norway. As to the other aspects of symbols, residences etc., my main source of inspiration in the possible scope of expanding the all too brief “Monarchy of Sweden” has been the articles written about the various commonwealth realm monarchies, such as Monarchy of Canada and Monarchy of New Zealand. The history sections of the latter articles cannot of course be used as a fair comparison when writing a history section for this article, naturally given that their temporal scope is much shorter. One possible method of benchmarking other “Monarchy of N.N.” articles (and other monarchical heads of state articles) is by measuring the article sizes. This is a list of the approximate sizes from last week (assuming they have not changed too much):
Article | Size |
---|---|
Monarchy of Canada | 159 kb |
Pope | 126 kb |
Monarchy of Spain | 114 kb |
Monarchy of the Netherlands | 102 kb |
Monarchy of the United Kingdom | 85 kb |
Monarchy of New Zealand | 70 kb |
Monarchy of Australia | 64 kb |
Monarchy of Sweden | 55 kb |
Monarchy of Norway | 48 kb |
Emperor of Japan | 40 kb |
Monarchy of Belgium | 39 kb |
Monarchy of Denmark | 29 kb |
Monarchy of Jamaica | 28 kb |
Grand Duke of Luxembourg | 8 kb |
Monarchy of Liechtenstein | 7 kb |
The scope of these articles varies considerably and it is quite difficult to adjudicate on the spot what is the proper content in such articles and what is not. The size of this article in question cannot be characterized as excessive by any standard. I would rather contribute to the articles than to engage in these largely pointless meta-debates, and it is telling that my opponent has contributed very little himself to this article. And yet he seems to care a great deal about it. I highly suspect that the real intent of this new third opinion is spitefulness and vindictiveness at its heart, in light of the last third opinion where his case did not prevail. Because for all the pride and posturing there is a conspicuous lack of concision, despite the occasional verbose blast. It is surprising, perhaps paradoxical, that one who poses as an infallible paragon of virtue in mastering the English language stands on such thin ground. As to why, I will not further speculate. Even though I have many times encountered similar situations on enwp, since I began in 2005, whenever editing articles where the reasonable presumption is that native speakers of either; French, German or Swedish; have primarily edited those articles, I would never imagine berating and belittling other users however “truthful” it may be. It is simply not done. The perennial complaints of Swenglish have become the eternal pet peeve of SergeWoodzing (an observable fact by looking at his contribution comments and at his talk page) and a prime vehicle of baiting other native Swedish language users to cross the line of engaging in personal attacks: often a self-fulfilling prophecy, indeed. I shall not induce myself to his lowbrow manners and uncivil behavior, however tempting it may be. Nevertheless, I would like to finish my remarks by mentioning a trope from my laughing place, tvtropes, namely Can't argue with Elves which at its core might be the most germane description of the debating style of my opponent. RicJac ( talk) 00:51, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
I've gone through both the above sections and honestly, it's really hard for me to provide a single 3O post to answer this like how I usually do. I do get that this dispute about content but everything is still all very vague to me, being a uninvolved editor who is also not familiar to this subject. However, I can try to make you both move forward in improving this article. For that we need to go back to the drawing board and discuss each specific change here in an orderly manner.
Before we start, I'm going to assume what was discussed below with e ripley is over because if that user cannot help you on it, I doubt I will. I recommend higher forms of dispute resolution like WP:DRN or WP:RFC. Also, even if any one of you two disagree with my method anytime can consider those dispute resolution methods instead.
I need the person who objects with the specific content to mention that over here along with only the reasoning why. Please keep it as short as possible. Then the other can discuss their reasoning for inclusion. If possible, a compromise can be reached and if it gets stuck, I may have to provide a 3O for it. Then we can move on the next object of discussion. If we all keep good faith, keep away any personal comments and discuss content only this can all go smoothly and quickly--everyone else can follow it more easier. So shall we begin? - Ugog Nizdast ( talk) 13:44, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
E. Ripley ( talk · contribs) wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute clarification needed in a short sentence below.
Helper e. ripley, please note: I am sticking to my point 5 below and would prefer not to make exceptions by responding to any user who continues to refuse to do the same. -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 15:22, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
I think there's been too much attention devoted to the Swedish meaning of these words, when what matters at the English Wikipedia is the English meaning of these words. It appears accepted that the country of Sweden, writ large, owns these items, and in English, the definition of state and government at the national level are commonly understood as interchangeable. In that regard, I don't think it matters much whether we use state or government.
Wikipedia articles can't be sources for themselves, but there are instances in Wikipedia policy where precedent does matter (for instance, whether to use the British vs. American spelling of certain words -- which states that "When no English variety has been established and discussion cannot resolve the issue, the variety used in the first non-stub revision is considered the default.") In addition, Buckingham Palace uses the phrase "the British state" to describe ownership. It also appears that the earliest version of this article that referenced ownership used state. (However, I would oppose capitalizing "state" here. It doesn't comport with our style.)
Given that the two words' meaning in English is interchangeable, the history of the article has the use of "state" occurring first, and there is precedent for using "state" in at least one other similar article, my initial opinion is that if it's necessary to pick one or the other word, state should win out. However, I would offer as another option for discussion that if which arm of the government actually has ownership can be identified precisely (and based on RicJac's comments, it appears this is possible), then I would submit that might be a more preferable alternative. And, there is precedent for that result as well (see the treatment of ownership in White House: "The property is a National Heritage Site owned by the National Park Service and is part of the President's Park.").
Since I haven't seen any sources in English that use either variation, I am somewhat at a loss for how to choose which is more appropriate. Turning to the MOS for abbreviations may provide some guidance. Here it says "when an abbreviation is to be used in an article, give the expression in full at first, followed immediately by the abbreviation in parentheses (round brackets). In the rest of the article the abbreviation can then be used by itself." I admit this is not a wholly satisfying standard to base a decision on in this instance, because the dispute is over how to reference a singular institution. However, it may be a useful yardstick. So I suppose, under duress, I would support the use of "Kunglinga Huset (Kung. Huset)."
The dispute over Kunglinga Huset vs. Kung. Huset, would probably benefit from some opinions by editors who are familiar with or at least interested in Sweden. I would suggest that this particular dispute be put to people participating at Wikiproject Sweden and see if they have some helpful suggestions.
Thank you. I hope I've been of some assistance. — e. ripley\ talk 22:33, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
A question on one point. As it regards the usage of state vs. government, the disputed text as far as I can tell is The Royal Palaces are the property of the Swedish government and The Regalia is government property. Are these two sets of items owned by any certain part of the government that would make it worthy of a description that makes a distinction between a portion of the sovereign nation? — e. ripley\ talk 20:26, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
Two relevant links re the (now very confusing, for anyone else) format and issues in this discussion:
I highly recommend this one hour long lecture by Professor Quentin Skinner named "A Genealogy of the State", filmed at Northwestern University, where the crux of his conclusion is that it is quite unsatisfactory to equate the term State with Government (for partially the same reasons I have outlined above). There is also a written British Academy lecture version. RicJac ( talk) 01:51, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
The footnotes do not support the content they are being used to reference. For instance the Wikipedia article states that the King holds honorary ranks in the armed forces. Yet this is not what the link says. It says "He is the foremost representative of the Swedish defence establishment and holds supreme rank in each of the service arms". 121.73.7.84 ( talk) 18:20, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
The wikipedia article states that the king is immune from criminal prosecution but not civil liability, yet the website of the Swedish Monarchy states that "The Head of State cannot be proceeded against in civil causes." 121.73.7.84 ( talk) 18:20, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
Please see my question here, asked on the talk page of our article Head of State. Well-cited clarification would be great. -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 09:58, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
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I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Monarchy of Sweden's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "EB1911":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. Feel free to remove this comment after fixing the refs. AnomieBOT ⚡ 21:38, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
The article on the Monarchy of Sweden has several issues with neutrality. In particular, the section on cultural importance and general popularity among the Swedish populace is generally worded rather strongly against the general institution (note this is specifically the wording, not primarily the content). I also believe that when describing the institution of the monarchy, it is best to remain describing that institution, rather than the figurehead (the king). Criticisms against the king personally belong in the article describing him, rather than the article describing his role. DaisyThePug ( talk) 05:06, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
The Swedish monarchy has never been criticised as severely as it has duing the last few years.
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The link Swedish monarch at present merely redirects to List of Swedish monarchs. Though that is intented to provide a more extensive article on the Swedish monarchy and provide part of the historical structure.
Historical institutional structure (up to 1974):
Present constitutional structure:
-- Mic 05:24 Apr 30, 2003 (UTC)
King of Sweden → Swedish monarchy - "King of Sweden" is a bad title because the rules of succession to the Swedish throne allow for female succession to the throne. The current heir apparent, Crown Princess Victoria, will therefor be titulated Queen of Sweden. See for example British monarchy. / Jebur 01:01, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. violet/riga (t) 20:02, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
When Crown Princess Victoria has children, will they be of the "House of Westling" so named after her husband, or will they adopt the surname of her maternal father and be of the Royal House of Bernadotte?
The sv:Konselj meetings of cabinet and monarch should be described in this article. / Urbourbo ( talk) 08:54, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
Thanx for good work on the article! With this edit though, the top got screwed up: a big blank space to the right of the infobox and under the hatnote. I don't know how you did that, or how to fix it. SergeWoodzing ( talk) 17:05, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Monarchy of Norway#Titles and styles needs to be expanded by an expert to the standard of Monarchy of Sweden#Titles and Monarchy of Denmark#Style. Help needed.-- Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy ( talk) 17:48, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
SergeWoodzing has reverted a few of my edits. But none of his assertions are factually correct in either case.
First, state and government are not interchangeable terms as the ignorant Woodzing apparently believes. The English language divide makes this issue particularly tricky in this case as ”government” in US English refers to what in Britain and Europe is known as the state (
Swedish: staten). Furthermore, the use of Caps in English and Swedish are not symmetric. It is ironic that Woodzing frequently complains about other editors’ poor use of
Swinglish, when he has little knowledge about English capitalizations rules more than his gut feeling. The Use of Caps for State and Government when referring to official institutions or organs is consistent with the usage of those terms in the English translation of the Instrument of Government published by the Riksdag, which is a reference on the article page.
Again Woodzing should pay attention to the official translations of official Swedish terminology by consulting "Utrikes namnbok", published by the
Ministry of Foreign Affairs which is also made available free of charge on the Internet. The
European Union also has similar materials about their manuals of style in all their official languages.
Second, as to Kungl. Vvs. Kungliga: Kungl. is merely a short form for Kungliga, nothing more and nothing less. In case of doubt, why not have a look at the Swedish Academy’s SAOB (
[1]), and the note the usage of the term in the
law from 1921 about guardianship of royals below the age of majority.
Has Woodzing at any time ever contributed to Wikipedia by adding reliable or verifiable sources to any of his edits? Otherwise I suspect that he arbitrarily makes his edits simply based on personal preferences and substance be damned.
RicJac (
talk)
21:24, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
26. Usu. with the and capital initial.
a. The body politic as organized for supreme civil rule and government; the political organization which is the basis of civil government. Hence: the supreme civil power or government of a country or nation; the group of people collectively engaged in exercising or administering this
I'm questioning the fact that "Rojalistiska föreningen (Swedish) - Swedish royalist association" is an external link under this article. As far as I know, there is nothing official about that club, it has no governmental, academic, literary or other legitimacy and would tend to get an undue distinction by it's inclusion here on the coattails of this WP article. It's sort of like a fan club of amateurs and I've never seen it taken seriously in all my years of dealing with matters royal in Sweden. -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 00:46, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
Recent expansions have added a lot of info which, albeit valuable and factually accurate, seems to branch off into subjects irrelevant to the topic of this article, such as too much detail on reign accomplishments of certain kings, particularly Gustav I and Gustav II Adolph, while there is not a word about several equally important monarchs, such as the 3 Wittelsbach kings of the 17th century. I removed just a bit of that extra stuff now, along with some exact redundancies, etc. Wouldn't it be better to stick more strictly to topic? -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 14:11, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
My position is that the article now recently has had rather extensive irrelevant material added to it, which is not about the article's subject Monarchy of Sweden but detailed information about the reign accomplishments of certain monarchs, but not of those of many others. My opponent clearly disagrees, alleging that all the info h/s has added is relevant, and intends to keep adding more such (what I consider) irrelevant material which does not belong here, but belongs in the articles about those monarchs (where most or all of it is already covered). It is hard for me to understand how anyone could read this article and find that all that biographic material about monarchs, which does not touch in any way upon the monarchy itself, and has nothing to do with the subject Monarchy of Sweden, could be relevant, and that more such irrelevant info should be added to make the article swell out even more drastically beyond subject range.
Since I am the only person who at length has corrected ("Notes to self") my opponent's rather extensive Swenglish in this article, which one often needs to know Swedish to be able to fully understand and correct well, my attitude toward that is that I always will be glad to help out when relevant info is added to any article, but it feels very tedious to be burdened with making extensive corrections when added material, as I see it, is not relevant. My opponent has also shown anything but appreciation for my courteous efforts in that regard, so anyone could easily be tempted to quote Streisand and ask oneself "Why bother?". -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 23:29, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
I was asked to give an opinion here about the expanded content. I'm not sure if I'm too late to be of any use (assuming, that is, my comments would be useful, anyway!).
I don't know enough about Sweden's monarchy to say anything about the history section here. I'd say, though, the history should confine itself to moments of importance in the institution's past/development, rather than including more tangentially related histories of individual monarchs.
Other than that, I don't see much here that could be considered excess. Maybe only the section on royal residences goes into too much detail about the residences, detail that's (presumably) covered at the articles on those palaces. -- Ħ MIESIANIACAL 21:02, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
I see very little merit to this second round of a third opinion, but here we go again… It is difficult to argue with an opponent who deals with sweeping general notions and never in specifics. It would be prudent for an opponent to make his share of due diligence before levying broad criticism. As I mentioned in the thread above, my intention has been to write a history section much in the vein of what can be found over at Monarchy of the United Kingdom and Monarchy of Norway. As to the other aspects of symbols, residences etc., my main source of inspiration in the possible scope of expanding the all too brief “Monarchy of Sweden” has been the articles written about the various commonwealth realm monarchies, such as Monarchy of Canada and Monarchy of New Zealand. The history sections of the latter articles cannot of course be used as a fair comparison when writing a history section for this article, naturally given that their temporal scope is much shorter. One possible method of benchmarking other “Monarchy of N.N.” articles (and other monarchical heads of state articles) is by measuring the article sizes. This is a list of the approximate sizes from last week (assuming they have not changed too much):
Article | Size |
---|---|
Monarchy of Canada | 159 kb |
Pope | 126 kb |
Monarchy of Spain | 114 kb |
Monarchy of the Netherlands | 102 kb |
Monarchy of the United Kingdom | 85 kb |
Monarchy of New Zealand | 70 kb |
Monarchy of Australia | 64 kb |
Monarchy of Sweden | 55 kb |
Monarchy of Norway | 48 kb |
Emperor of Japan | 40 kb |
Monarchy of Belgium | 39 kb |
Monarchy of Denmark | 29 kb |
Monarchy of Jamaica | 28 kb |
Grand Duke of Luxembourg | 8 kb |
Monarchy of Liechtenstein | 7 kb |
The scope of these articles varies considerably and it is quite difficult to adjudicate on the spot what is the proper content in such articles and what is not. The size of this article in question cannot be characterized as excessive by any standard. I would rather contribute to the articles than to engage in these largely pointless meta-debates, and it is telling that my opponent has contributed very little himself to this article. And yet he seems to care a great deal about it. I highly suspect that the real intent of this new third opinion is spitefulness and vindictiveness at its heart, in light of the last third opinion where his case did not prevail. Because for all the pride and posturing there is a conspicuous lack of concision, despite the occasional verbose blast. It is surprising, perhaps paradoxical, that one who poses as an infallible paragon of virtue in mastering the English language stands on such thin ground. As to why, I will not further speculate. Even though I have many times encountered similar situations on enwp, since I began in 2005, whenever editing articles where the reasonable presumption is that native speakers of either; French, German or Swedish; have primarily edited those articles, I would never imagine berating and belittling other users however “truthful” it may be. It is simply not done. The perennial complaints of Swenglish have become the eternal pet peeve of SergeWoodzing (an observable fact by looking at his contribution comments and at his talk page) and a prime vehicle of baiting other native Swedish language users to cross the line of engaging in personal attacks: often a self-fulfilling prophecy, indeed. I shall not induce myself to his lowbrow manners and uncivil behavior, however tempting it may be. Nevertheless, I would like to finish my remarks by mentioning a trope from my laughing place, tvtropes, namely Can't argue with Elves which at its core might be the most germane description of the debating style of my opponent. RicJac ( talk) 00:51, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
I've gone through both the above sections and honestly, it's really hard for me to provide a single 3O post to answer this like how I usually do. I do get that this dispute about content but everything is still all very vague to me, being a uninvolved editor who is also not familiar to this subject. However, I can try to make you both move forward in improving this article. For that we need to go back to the drawing board and discuss each specific change here in an orderly manner.
Before we start, I'm going to assume what was discussed below with e ripley is over because if that user cannot help you on it, I doubt I will. I recommend higher forms of dispute resolution like WP:DRN or WP:RFC. Also, even if any one of you two disagree with my method anytime can consider those dispute resolution methods instead.
I need the person who objects with the specific content to mention that over here along with only the reasoning why. Please keep it as short as possible. Then the other can discuss their reasoning for inclusion. If possible, a compromise can be reached and if it gets stuck, I may have to provide a 3O for it. Then we can move on the next object of discussion. If we all keep good faith, keep away any personal comments and discuss content only this can all go smoothly and quickly--everyone else can follow it more easier. So shall we begin? - Ugog Nizdast ( talk) 13:44, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
E. Ripley ( talk · contribs) wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute clarification needed in a short sentence below.
Helper e. ripley, please note: I am sticking to my point 5 below and would prefer not to make exceptions by responding to any user who continues to refuse to do the same. -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 15:22, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
I think there's been too much attention devoted to the Swedish meaning of these words, when what matters at the English Wikipedia is the English meaning of these words. It appears accepted that the country of Sweden, writ large, owns these items, and in English, the definition of state and government at the national level are commonly understood as interchangeable. In that regard, I don't think it matters much whether we use state or government.
Wikipedia articles can't be sources for themselves, but there are instances in Wikipedia policy where precedent does matter (for instance, whether to use the British vs. American spelling of certain words -- which states that "When no English variety has been established and discussion cannot resolve the issue, the variety used in the first non-stub revision is considered the default.") In addition, Buckingham Palace uses the phrase "the British state" to describe ownership. It also appears that the earliest version of this article that referenced ownership used state. (However, I would oppose capitalizing "state" here. It doesn't comport with our style.)
Given that the two words' meaning in English is interchangeable, the history of the article has the use of "state" occurring first, and there is precedent for using "state" in at least one other similar article, my initial opinion is that if it's necessary to pick one or the other word, state should win out. However, I would offer as another option for discussion that if which arm of the government actually has ownership can be identified precisely (and based on RicJac's comments, it appears this is possible), then I would submit that might be a more preferable alternative. And, there is precedent for that result as well (see the treatment of ownership in White House: "The property is a National Heritage Site owned by the National Park Service and is part of the President's Park.").
Since I haven't seen any sources in English that use either variation, I am somewhat at a loss for how to choose which is more appropriate. Turning to the MOS for abbreviations may provide some guidance. Here it says "when an abbreviation is to be used in an article, give the expression in full at first, followed immediately by the abbreviation in parentheses (round brackets). In the rest of the article the abbreviation can then be used by itself." I admit this is not a wholly satisfying standard to base a decision on in this instance, because the dispute is over how to reference a singular institution. However, it may be a useful yardstick. So I suppose, under duress, I would support the use of "Kunglinga Huset (Kung. Huset)."
The dispute over Kunglinga Huset vs. Kung. Huset, would probably benefit from some opinions by editors who are familiar with or at least interested in Sweden. I would suggest that this particular dispute be put to people participating at Wikiproject Sweden and see if they have some helpful suggestions.
Thank you. I hope I've been of some assistance. — e. ripley\ talk 22:33, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
A question on one point. As it regards the usage of state vs. government, the disputed text as far as I can tell is The Royal Palaces are the property of the Swedish government and The Regalia is government property. Are these two sets of items owned by any certain part of the government that would make it worthy of a description that makes a distinction between a portion of the sovereign nation? — e. ripley\ talk 20:26, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
Two relevant links re the (now very confusing, for anyone else) format and issues in this discussion:
I highly recommend this one hour long lecture by Professor Quentin Skinner named "A Genealogy of the State", filmed at Northwestern University, where the crux of his conclusion is that it is quite unsatisfactory to equate the term State with Government (for partially the same reasons I have outlined above). There is also a written British Academy lecture version. RicJac ( talk) 01:51, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
The footnotes do not support the content they are being used to reference. For instance the Wikipedia article states that the King holds honorary ranks in the armed forces. Yet this is not what the link says. It says "He is the foremost representative of the Swedish defence establishment and holds supreme rank in each of the service arms". 121.73.7.84 ( talk) 18:20, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
The wikipedia article states that the king is immune from criminal prosecution but not civil liability, yet the website of the Swedish Monarchy states that "The Head of State cannot be proceeded against in civil causes." 121.73.7.84 ( talk) 18:20, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
Please see my question here, asked on the talk page of our article Head of State. Well-cited clarification would be great. -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 09:58, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
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I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Monarchy of Sweden's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "EB1911":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. Feel free to remove this comment after fixing the refs. AnomieBOT ⚡ 21:38, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
The article on the Monarchy of Sweden has several issues with neutrality. In particular, the section on cultural importance and general popularity among the Swedish populace is generally worded rather strongly against the general institution (note this is specifically the wording, not primarily the content). I also believe that when describing the institution of the monarchy, it is best to remain describing that institution, rather than the figurehead (the king). Criticisms against the king personally belong in the article describing him, rather than the article describing his role. DaisyThePug ( talk) 05:06, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
The Swedish monarchy has never been criticised as severely as it has duing the last few years.