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What needs to be 'cleaned up' in this article? There's no comment whatsoever here by the user by the user that added the tag, which seems both to defeat the purpose of the exercise, and to be contrary to the tagging policy. Numerous edits have happened subsequently, seemingly quite blithe to said tag. (The suggested merger's another issue.) Alai 21:18, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Where is your evidence that Henry II became Lord of Ireland in the year 1169? I'd love to see it.
Terrible still in 2007! Pope Adrian was dead by 1169 so I moved that date to 1155. The 'king of Ireland' was a Tudor construct which wasn't very popular. The high-kings were usually 'kings with opposition' - a polite way of saying 'not the actual king of the whole island'. Red Hurley 17:05, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
There are plenty of mentions of such a creature in the records outside the dates mentioned. Here is one as an example from the CELT database of Irish historical texts
Annals of Innisfallen 1114.2 'Galar do gabáil rig Érend isin bliadain so i medon samraid' which translates as the king of Ireland was struck down by disease this year in the middle of summer. The Annals of Inisfallen is a 1092 manuscript and this text is a contemporaneous continuation so I shall be making some changes in the article 195.92.168.165 21:27, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"In the centuries prior to 1169 Ireland had coalesced into a national kingdom under a High King of Ireland"
This is not a correct description of the state of affairs up to 1169. Up to that year there were nine main kingdoms ( Connacht, Aileach, Airgialla( Kingdom of Oriel), Ulaidh, Midhe, Lagain, Osraige, Mumhain and Thomond) on the island. None of them was ever under the similtanious controal of any High King of Ireland. While there certainly existed the sence of the Irish people as a nation, we were never politically united into a single national kingdom. The High Kings were only something akin to "first among equals", or better yet, recognised as the most powerful ruler on the island, but not of the entire island. Fergananim 02:05, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
The list of Lords etc 1541-1801 has, against Elizabeth: (Not "Elizabeth I" in Ireland because, excepting Northern Ireland, Ireland has never had an "Elizabeth II."). The obvious question is, what do people in Northern Ireland call the present Queen? The exception seems to tell the story. Northern Irelanders would nowadays distinguish between Elizabeths I and II, whereas Irish citizens only ever had one Elizabeth so no distinction is necessary. But the title Lord etc of Ireland referred to the entire island. I think the name should be Elizabeth I, and the comment in brackets should say "Irish citizens refer to her as "Elizabeth", without the regnal number, because she is the only queen of that name they ever had". - or something like that. JackofOz 01:20, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Of course Irish citizens do not refer to her as "Elizabeth," without the regnal number. To most Irish people, she is Queen Elizabeth I of England, and must be distinguished from the current queen, Elizabeth II, just like with everybody else. john k 01:25, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Should this reference to the Queen's mother, Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon be changed to her "proper" reference now that she's deceased? There's a lot of discussion over on her page about how she should be referred to... Thoughts? JByrd 20:54, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I've 'moved' this page to Irish monarchy from King of Ireland. The former title was gender bias, since there's been Queen regnants of Ireland. GoodDay 15:18, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
I just removed an [ anonymous edit] from two years ago that asserted that Elizabeth II, JFK and Ronald Reagan were descendants of Brian Ború. No citation was offered. This kind of patent nonsense needs to be aggressively trimmed. Ferg2k 02:39, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Interesting but in fact Philip II of Spain was already king of Ireland (and England) from 1554, by marriage to Mary. The Bull recognises the two of them together as loyal Catholic monarchs [unlike Mary's brother and father] and looks more like Rome slowly trying to catch up with events and preserve some ancient and dubious claim to suzreignty of islands. -- Rumping 00:11, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Strictly speaking Richard I was never Lord of Ireland. Shortly after the Anglo-Norman conquest, Henry II had "given" Ireland to his youngest son John Lackland. Only when Prince John succeded his brother, did the Lordship of Ireland become "permantly" co-joined with the monarch England. Jalipa ( talk) 23:30, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Anybody want to make the list? -- Camaeron ( talk) 17:02, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
The current article states: "It was five years before the Royal and Parliamentary Titles Act 1927 revived the title King of Ireland as a separate position to the British crown"
Was the King acting on the authority of the Irish Free State (later Ireland) government acting in "a separate position to the British crown"? To my knowledge there was no Act of the Oireachtas declaring the King, "King of Ireland". - On my, admittedly unresearched reading, the 1927 Act merely restyled the UK monarch's title and in no way created "a separate position" for the Free State. On my reading separate monarchs for each Realm was a later development (1950s) although the restyling of the UK monarch's title was a precursor. Am I wrong on this? Does any one have any legal knowledge on this matter? I have tagged the particular reference on the page as requiring verification.
I've also made a few changes: deleting reference to Canadian campaign for Dominion sovereignty etc - it seemed outside the scope of the Ireland monarchy subject. I also corrected references to Eire (as these should be to Ireland - See Names of the Irish state). Redking7 ( talk) 22:50, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Surely two articles are not necessary? The other more recent article, the list article, contains far more information than a mere list, including images, information, etc. all of which is good stuff, but overlaps with this. This, the older article, contains information on Kings of Ireland over a longer period and also contains a list, although the list on the other article is better illustrated, tabulated, etc. A merger into the older, longer-established article seems sensible. Wotapalaver ( talk) 22:29, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
No argument that the list at List of Irish Monarchs is good, but it focuses on one period. Right now it seems that either a merge or a major tidying up of one or both articles is needed. There is overlap, underlap (if such a word exists), etc. Wotapalaver ( talk) 06:30, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
The article currently says (unsourced):
Although universally known as "Henry VIII," he was technically Henry I in Ireland, as the first of the English kings Henry to be King of Ireland; and the same principle applies to his successors until 1801.
...and successive monarchs have been numbered on the basis that it all began in 1541, then was reset in 1801 and againish in 1927. Everywhere else I've seen has indicated that the monarchs used their English/British numbering for their Irish titles (in the same way that Elizabeth II is "Elizabeth II of Australia" regardless of there not having been an "Elizabeth I of Australia") and that the UK monarchs carried forward the same numbering for the single UK title (whatever Scottish nationalists who object to "Elizabeth II" try to argue). It's very confusing when the same person is listed as "Edward" but later called "Edward VIII" or to have "George (II) (V)" listed.
So are the current numbers correct or should it be the English/British/UK numbers? It would be original research to start applying an original numbering system that wasn't what the monarchs actually used. Timrollpickering ( talk) 22:08, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
I would think that a seperate number would be correct from 1541 to 1801. As it was in Scotland until 1707. After that it seems to me that there should be one numeral because of the merger of the crowns. 145.33.33.69 ( talk) 14:27, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
I've made some edits. It seems to me that it is a tautology to say that someone is "King of a Kingdom of ...", and hence the current title is surely "Queen of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Likewise this would surely be (at least the common) form from 1801 ("King of Great Britain and Ireland"). I also see from Monarchy and the Irish Free State that after 1937, the title changed from "King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland" to "King of Great Britain and Ireland". I've reflected this, although the first title still seems like a tautology. In reality, he was king of Great Britain and Ireland, and the different administrative and governmental arrangements in GB, NI, and IFS are irrelevant. Happy to discuss of course. Mooretwin ( talk) 14:36, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) Some boring legal stuff...
Section 3(2) of the Executive Authority (External Relations) Act 1936 say that
This instrument of abdication says:
"I, Edward the Eighth, of Great Britain, Ireland, and..."
An incidental acceptance of the title perhaps? As I said on the Republic of Ireland talk page, I would assume the treaty, created a political unit equivalent to Canada. King of Canada thus, King of Ireland. — Blue-Haired Lawyer 16:44, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
If Philip was granted the Crown of Ireland in 1555 by Pope Paul IV, why didn't his Habsburg descendants pretend to the throne afterwards? Was it too embarassing a reminder after the Armada? - Yorkshirian ( talk) 23:31, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Having copyedited this text until it began to make sense,
Overview
After Henry VIII of England made himself Supreme Head of the Church of England, he also requested and got legislation through his Irish Parliament, in 1541 (effective 1542, see Crown of Ireland Act 1542). This named him King of Ireland and head of the Church of Ireland (which today, both in Ireland and Northern Ireland, remains a member of the Anglican communion but is no longer an established church like the Church of England). The title "King of Ireland" was then used until 1 January 1801, the effective date of the second Act of Union, which merged Ireland and Great Britain to create the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.
In 1554, King Philip II of Spain became co-monarch of England (and thus of Ireland), by his marriage Queen Mary. In 1555, Pope Paul IV issued a papal bull granting the title King of Ireland to him. [1]. This reasserted the Pope's authority followed his excommunication of English King Henry VIII, after the latter's break with Rome. (This was the same feudal overlordship of the Papacy which, under the English Pope Adrian IV, had granted Ireland as a Lordship to King Henry II of England in 1155). Philip reigned from 1554 to 1558, along with his wife Mary I. With the death of Mary, the crown of England passed to Elizabeth. Regarding Elizabeth as a heretic, Phillip attempted to recover (both) crowns. With the failure of the Spanish Armada, Philip could not establish a foothold in England, and the Irish efforts to abolish English rule in Ireland with the help of Spain were defeated at the Battle of Kinsale in 1601.
In 1949 the Irish state, now named simply Ireland (as the Irish Free State had been renamed in 1937) severed its last link with the monarch when it declared that it was a republic, thereby leaving the Commonwealth. Partly to reflect the fact that the King was no longer King in all of the island of Ireland, the Monarch's Style was once again revised in 1953. The following title was adopted for the United Kingdom: Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith. The Act also marked the first time that Northern Ireland was explicitly referred to in the monarch's title. 1953 was also the first year in which the Monarch adopted more than one Royal Style, adopting separate Styles for her various realms, i.e. Queen of Canada.
but now I have no idea why it was there at all. The article reads perfectly well without it. It claims to be the overview, but in fact it is only an overview of the 260 years from 1641 to 1801, relegating the original Irish monarchy to the body as a detail not worth mentioning. The whole thing reads as WP:POINT. I would like to see a convincing argument before it goes back. -- Red King ( talk) 15:21, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
This article doesn't adequately take into account the effects of the Statute of Westminster, 1931, at which time the monarch ceased to reign in the Irish Free State as a British sovereign and was instead monarch of Ireland separately (as illustrated by the need for Irish legislation to allow for Edward VIII's abdication from the Irish throne). Somewhere along the line, the list of monarchs needs to be split, or it's indicated that after 1931 the same individual reigned in the Irish Free State as monarch of Ireland and in Northern Ireland as the monarch of the United Kingdom. -- Ħ MIESIANIACAL 16:16, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
But that is exactly what happened after 1931.
JWULTRABLIZZARD ( talk) 14:09, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
This article is incredibly confusing, and needs rewriting. For example, there are nothing but links under High–Kings of Ireland 846–1198 and there is nothing explaining what that means. Also, it starts abruptly at 846 and doesn't tell us anything about anything. In fact, if I go to List of Irish monarchs, there is a link there that goes to List of High Kings of Ireland, which is yet another article. Why the duplication? This is only one example of many. There are just so many things wrong with it I couldn't possibly list them all. I would be more than happy to help, but unfortunately, this is a subject matter that I know absolutely nothing about, which is why I came here to read about it. I thought some feedback though was definitely needed. I should also add that the long list of very well written references, but not even used in citations in the article itself, should go, unless they truly were used in the article (in which case it would be a good idea, though not required, to make inline citations so that facts can be checked. If they are for "additional reading" then they need to go under a heading stating just that. I have to laugh at the very top post on this Talk page. Someone evidently tagged it as needing clean up because it's just plain confusing. Someone asked what needs cleaning, and the response would be almost everything. I hate to be so blunt, because I'm sure that someone or several someones has worked very hard, and for that I am eternally grateful, but we all wish Wikipedia to be helpful, rather than scaring potential readers away. Suffice it to say that I am leaving the page having learned very little due to both information overload and disorganization. My comments here are respectfully intended, hopefully it sounds so as well. MagnoliaSouth ( talk) 03:56, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
There's a citation needed tag being inserted around the statement that the Personal union was ended and the Political union was created. Maybe I'm being slow but what citation is required exactly? It seems a little WP:SKYISBLUE to me. Yes, there's definitions of both a Personal union and a Political union. Yes, there's references that state it was originally a Personal union. Yes, there's references that state a Political union was created. What's missing that needed a reference? BTW, there's an onus on the editor placing the tags to do some research too, and this one seems easy enough to research (unless I'm completely missing the point of what is required in this case) -- HighKing ( talk) 13:37, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
Ireland had gained legislative independence by the 1780s during "Grattan's Parliament" so I don't think it could be classified as subordinate by the time of the Act of Union a couple of decades later especially seeing as the Irish Parliament was bribed beyond belief to get it passed. Mabuska (talk) 21:56, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
Would it be acceptable to omit George VI from the list of the last of the Monarchs of the Irish Free State [2]]? The position seems to have been as stated at Constitution of Ireland[ [3]], and Irish head of state from 1936 to 1949. Please see also comment at Talk:George VI[ [4]] which in summary is: from the abdication, sovereignty in name and fact was assumed by the Irish government as recognised by the George VI and his governments of the UK and other realms - the king had no part in the government of the Irish Free State or its successor, and its government had no other claim of right upon the king - it was a republic de facto and, as far as the parties to the arrangement themselves were concerned, de jure - the parties allowed themselves some flexibility with reference to "head of state" - the legislation at the time of George VI's accession was intended to change the residual position of the king which had obtained in the latter days of George V's reign and to which Edward VIII had succeeded - if in some respects the legislation was as equivocal as the political circumstances, all principal parties at the time had to be wary of allowing questions of allegiance and loyalty be overstrained when negotiating a settlement for the future government of the people of Ireland. Qexigator ( talk) 18:26, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
I have added two links for See also. On further consideration: Instead of revising the article simply on the basis that Edward VIII was last monarch, this is to propose revising the article on the basis of what is described at Irish head of state from 1936 to 1949. The arrangement between the Irish Free State and kings Geoge V, Edward VIII, and George VI successively as explained there differs from what is said about those kings in the present article. Certain aspects were discussed above in 2008 "Ireland - a Separate Realm?", in 2010 "Division of the Crown" and in November "End of personal union, start of political union". The source for the parts of the present article under the headings "Monarchs of the Irish Free State" and "Monarchs of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" appears to be "Official Website of the Almanach de Saxe Gotha" for "Kingdom of Ireland" [5] - none other is cited. The Almanach states: "In 1937, the link to the U.K. Crown was repealed, but the monarch was the de jure King in the new State until 1949". But that is not borne out by the facts meticulously described in "Irish head of state from 1936 to 1949". Subject to any further comment here or at "Last monarch, Edward or George?" Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland, some rewording is, in my view, required for:
Revisions now made to clarify. Qexigator ( talk) 14:45, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
The information at List of Irish monarchs appears to duplicate, or be similar to, much of the information here. DrKay ( talk) 17:54, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
FYI Talk:The Queen of Ireland (film) → The Queen of Ireland. In ictu oculi ( talk) 16:02, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Monarchy of Ireland/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
I have re-assessed this article as class=B rather than class=list , because while it contains embedded lists, it is actually a substantive article, not just a bare list. --
BrownHairedGirl
(talk) • (
contribs) 14:19, 12 January 2008 (UTC) |
Last edited at 01:40, 1 January 2012 (UTC). Substituted at 00:20, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
"In early 1166, Ruaidhrí, King of Connacht, proceeded to Dublin where he was inaugurated King of Ireland without opposition." What is the source for this? Dublin and what is today county Dublin was at that time a Norwegian enclave and city. High Kings of Ireland (who by this time were fairly meaningless) have no history of coronations in Dublin. 86.142.165.157 ( talk) 17:50, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
"The Gaelic kingdoms of Ireland ended with the Norman invasion of Ireland (1169–1171), when the kingdom became a fief of the Holy See under the Lordship of the King of England." This line is incorrect, many Gaelic kingdoms lasted until the sixteenth century. For example, Hugh Roe O'Donnell was king of Tyrconnell in the late sixteenth century.
I'm not familiar enough with Irish history to feel comfortable making this edit. But it looks like Alister an Dubh was added here: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Monarchy_of_Ireland&diff=prev&oldid=1184873326) and along with it this citation:
Parks, David (1977). Life of all Irish Monarchs before 1200. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 97805214657.{{ cite book}}
: Check|isbn=
value: length ( help).
Alister was deleted here: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Monarchy_of_Ireland&diff=prev&oldid=1196807506, but the source stayed. There's also no page for Alister.
I don't think it exists as a book or chapter of a book. The ISBN is too short, and I wasn't able to find anything on Cambridge's website. It may just be a mistake/spam, but I'm trying to assume good faith. Snowman304| talk 03:42, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
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What needs to be 'cleaned up' in this article? There's no comment whatsoever here by the user by the user that added the tag, which seems both to defeat the purpose of the exercise, and to be contrary to the tagging policy. Numerous edits have happened subsequently, seemingly quite blithe to said tag. (The suggested merger's another issue.) Alai 21:18, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Where is your evidence that Henry II became Lord of Ireland in the year 1169? I'd love to see it.
Terrible still in 2007! Pope Adrian was dead by 1169 so I moved that date to 1155. The 'king of Ireland' was a Tudor construct which wasn't very popular. The high-kings were usually 'kings with opposition' - a polite way of saying 'not the actual king of the whole island'. Red Hurley 17:05, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
There are plenty of mentions of such a creature in the records outside the dates mentioned. Here is one as an example from the CELT database of Irish historical texts
Annals of Innisfallen 1114.2 'Galar do gabáil rig Érend isin bliadain so i medon samraid' which translates as the king of Ireland was struck down by disease this year in the middle of summer. The Annals of Inisfallen is a 1092 manuscript and this text is a contemporaneous continuation so I shall be making some changes in the article 195.92.168.165 21:27, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"In the centuries prior to 1169 Ireland had coalesced into a national kingdom under a High King of Ireland"
This is not a correct description of the state of affairs up to 1169. Up to that year there were nine main kingdoms ( Connacht, Aileach, Airgialla( Kingdom of Oriel), Ulaidh, Midhe, Lagain, Osraige, Mumhain and Thomond) on the island. None of them was ever under the similtanious controal of any High King of Ireland. While there certainly existed the sence of the Irish people as a nation, we were never politically united into a single national kingdom. The High Kings were only something akin to "first among equals", or better yet, recognised as the most powerful ruler on the island, but not of the entire island. Fergananim 02:05, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
The list of Lords etc 1541-1801 has, against Elizabeth: (Not "Elizabeth I" in Ireland because, excepting Northern Ireland, Ireland has never had an "Elizabeth II."). The obvious question is, what do people in Northern Ireland call the present Queen? The exception seems to tell the story. Northern Irelanders would nowadays distinguish between Elizabeths I and II, whereas Irish citizens only ever had one Elizabeth so no distinction is necessary. But the title Lord etc of Ireland referred to the entire island. I think the name should be Elizabeth I, and the comment in brackets should say "Irish citizens refer to her as "Elizabeth", without the regnal number, because she is the only queen of that name they ever had". - or something like that. JackofOz 01:20, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Of course Irish citizens do not refer to her as "Elizabeth," without the regnal number. To most Irish people, she is Queen Elizabeth I of England, and must be distinguished from the current queen, Elizabeth II, just like with everybody else. john k 01:25, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Should this reference to the Queen's mother, Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon be changed to her "proper" reference now that she's deceased? There's a lot of discussion over on her page about how she should be referred to... Thoughts? JByrd 20:54, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I've 'moved' this page to Irish monarchy from King of Ireland. The former title was gender bias, since there's been Queen regnants of Ireland. GoodDay 15:18, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
I just removed an [ anonymous edit] from two years ago that asserted that Elizabeth II, JFK and Ronald Reagan were descendants of Brian Ború. No citation was offered. This kind of patent nonsense needs to be aggressively trimmed. Ferg2k 02:39, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Interesting but in fact Philip II of Spain was already king of Ireland (and England) from 1554, by marriage to Mary. The Bull recognises the two of them together as loyal Catholic monarchs [unlike Mary's brother and father] and looks more like Rome slowly trying to catch up with events and preserve some ancient and dubious claim to suzreignty of islands. -- Rumping 00:11, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Strictly speaking Richard I was never Lord of Ireland. Shortly after the Anglo-Norman conquest, Henry II had "given" Ireland to his youngest son John Lackland. Only when Prince John succeded his brother, did the Lordship of Ireland become "permantly" co-joined with the monarch England. Jalipa ( talk) 23:30, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Anybody want to make the list? -- Camaeron ( talk) 17:02, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
The current article states: "It was five years before the Royal and Parliamentary Titles Act 1927 revived the title King of Ireland as a separate position to the British crown"
Was the King acting on the authority of the Irish Free State (later Ireland) government acting in "a separate position to the British crown"? To my knowledge there was no Act of the Oireachtas declaring the King, "King of Ireland". - On my, admittedly unresearched reading, the 1927 Act merely restyled the UK monarch's title and in no way created "a separate position" for the Free State. On my reading separate monarchs for each Realm was a later development (1950s) although the restyling of the UK monarch's title was a precursor. Am I wrong on this? Does any one have any legal knowledge on this matter? I have tagged the particular reference on the page as requiring verification.
I've also made a few changes: deleting reference to Canadian campaign for Dominion sovereignty etc - it seemed outside the scope of the Ireland monarchy subject. I also corrected references to Eire (as these should be to Ireland - See Names of the Irish state). Redking7 ( talk) 22:50, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Surely two articles are not necessary? The other more recent article, the list article, contains far more information than a mere list, including images, information, etc. all of which is good stuff, but overlaps with this. This, the older article, contains information on Kings of Ireland over a longer period and also contains a list, although the list on the other article is better illustrated, tabulated, etc. A merger into the older, longer-established article seems sensible. Wotapalaver ( talk) 22:29, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
No argument that the list at List of Irish Monarchs is good, but it focuses on one period. Right now it seems that either a merge or a major tidying up of one or both articles is needed. There is overlap, underlap (if such a word exists), etc. Wotapalaver ( talk) 06:30, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
The article currently says (unsourced):
Although universally known as "Henry VIII," he was technically Henry I in Ireland, as the first of the English kings Henry to be King of Ireland; and the same principle applies to his successors until 1801.
...and successive monarchs have been numbered on the basis that it all began in 1541, then was reset in 1801 and againish in 1927. Everywhere else I've seen has indicated that the monarchs used their English/British numbering for their Irish titles (in the same way that Elizabeth II is "Elizabeth II of Australia" regardless of there not having been an "Elizabeth I of Australia") and that the UK monarchs carried forward the same numbering for the single UK title (whatever Scottish nationalists who object to "Elizabeth II" try to argue). It's very confusing when the same person is listed as "Edward" but later called "Edward VIII" or to have "George (II) (V)" listed.
So are the current numbers correct or should it be the English/British/UK numbers? It would be original research to start applying an original numbering system that wasn't what the monarchs actually used. Timrollpickering ( talk) 22:08, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
I would think that a seperate number would be correct from 1541 to 1801. As it was in Scotland until 1707. After that it seems to me that there should be one numeral because of the merger of the crowns. 145.33.33.69 ( talk) 14:27, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
I've made some edits. It seems to me that it is a tautology to say that someone is "King of a Kingdom of ...", and hence the current title is surely "Queen of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Likewise this would surely be (at least the common) form from 1801 ("King of Great Britain and Ireland"). I also see from Monarchy and the Irish Free State that after 1937, the title changed from "King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland" to "King of Great Britain and Ireland". I've reflected this, although the first title still seems like a tautology. In reality, he was king of Great Britain and Ireland, and the different administrative and governmental arrangements in GB, NI, and IFS are irrelevant. Happy to discuss of course. Mooretwin ( talk) 14:36, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) Some boring legal stuff...
Section 3(2) of the Executive Authority (External Relations) Act 1936 say that
This instrument of abdication says:
"I, Edward the Eighth, of Great Britain, Ireland, and..."
An incidental acceptance of the title perhaps? As I said on the Republic of Ireland talk page, I would assume the treaty, created a political unit equivalent to Canada. King of Canada thus, King of Ireland. — Blue-Haired Lawyer 16:44, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
If Philip was granted the Crown of Ireland in 1555 by Pope Paul IV, why didn't his Habsburg descendants pretend to the throne afterwards? Was it too embarassing a reminder after the Armada? - Yorkshirian ( talk) 23:31, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Having copyedited this text until it began to make sense,
Overview
After Henry VIII of England made himself Supreme Head of the Church of England, he also requested and got legislation through his Irish Parliament, in 1541 (effective 1542, see Crown of Ireland Act 1542). This named him King of Ireland and head of the Church of Ireland (which today, both in Ireland and Northern Ireland, remains a member of the Anglican communion but is no longer an established church like the Church of England). The title "King of Ireland" was then used until 1 January 1801, the effective date of the second Act of Union, which merged Ireland and Great Britain to create the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.
In 1554, King Philip II of Spain became co-monarch of England (and thus of Ireland), by his marriage Queen Mary. In 1555, Pope Paul IV issued a papal bull granting the title King of Ireland to him. [1]. This reasserted the Pope's authority followed his excommunication of English King Henry VIII, after the latter's break with Rome. (This was the same feudal overlordship of the Papacy which, under the English Pope Adrian IV, had granted Ireland as a Lordship to King Henry II of England in 1155). Philip reigned from 1554 to 1558, along with his wife Mary I. With the death of Mary, the crown of England passed to Elizabeth. Regarding Elizabeth as a heretic, Phillip attempted to recover (both) crowns. With the failure of the Spanish Armada, Philip could not establish a foothold in England, and the Irish efforts to abolish English rule in Ireland with the help of Spain were defeated at the Battle of Kinsale in 1601.
In 1949 the Irish state, now named simply Ireland (as the Irish Free State had been renamed in 1937) severed its last link with the monarch when it declared that it was a republic, thereby leaving the Commonwealth. Partly to reflect the fact that the King was no longer King in all of the island of Ireland, the Monarch's Style was once again revised in 1953. The following title was adopted for the United Kingdom: Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith. The Act also marked the first time that Northern Ireland was explicitly referred to in the monarch's title. 1953 was also the first year in which the Monarch adopted more than one Royal Style, adopting separate Styles for her various realms, i.e. Queen of Canada.
but now I have no idea why it was there at all. The article reads perfectly well without it. It claims to be the overview, but in fact it is only an overview of the 260 years from 1641 to 1801, relegating the original Irish monarchy to the body as a detail not worth mentioning. The whole thing reads as WP:POINT. I would like to see a convincing argument before it goes back. -- Red King ( talk) 15:21, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
This article doesn't adequately take into account the effects of the Statute of Westminster, 1931, at which time the monarch ceased to reign in the Irish Free State as a British sovereign and was instead monarch of Ireland separately (as illustrated by the need for Irish legislation to allow for Edward VIII's abdication from the Irish throne). Somewhere along the line, the list of monarchs needs to be split, or it's indicated that after 1931 the same individual reigned in the Irish Free State as monarch of Ireland and in Northern Ireland as the monarch of the United Kingdom. -- Ħ MIESIANIACAL 16:16, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
But that is exactly what happened after 1931.
JWULTRABLIZZARD ( talk) 14:09, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
This article is incredibly confusing, and needs rewriting. For example, there are nothing but links under High–Kings of Ireland 846–1198 and there is nothing explaining what that means. Also, it starts abruptly at 846 and doesn't tell us anything about anything. In fact, if I go to List of Irish monarchs, there is a link there that goes to List of High Kings of Ireland, which is yet another article. Why the duplication? This is only one example of many. There are just so many things wrong with it I couldn't possibly list them all. I would be more than happy to help, but unfortunately, this is a subject matter that I know absolutely nothing about, which is why I came here to read about it. I thought some feedback though was definitely needed. I should also add that the long list of very well written references, but not even used in citations in the article itself, should go, unless they truly were used in the article (in which case it would be a good idea, though not required, to make inline citations so that facts can be checked. If they are for "additional reading" then they need to go under a heading stating just that. I have to laugh at the very top post on this Talk page. Someone evidently tagged it as needing clean up because it's just plain confusing. Someone asked what needs cleaning, and the response would be almost everything. I hate to be so blunt, because I'm sure that someone or several someones has worked very hard, and for that I am eternally grateful, but we all wish Wikipedia to be helpful, rather than scaring potential readers away. Suffice it to say that I am leaving the page having learned very little due to both information overload and disorganization. My comments here are respectfully intended, hopefully it sounds so as well. MagnoliaSouth ( talk) 03:56, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
There's a citation needed tag being inserted around the statement that the Personal union was ended and the Political union was created. Maybe I'm being slow but what citation is required exactly? It seems a little WP:SKYISBLUE to me. Yes, there's definitions of both a Personal union and a Political union. Yes, there's references that state it was originally a Personal union. Yes, there's references that state a Political union was created. What's missing that needed a reference? BTW, there's an onus on the editor placing the tags to do some research too, and this one seems easy enough to research (unless I'm completely missing the point of what is required in this case) -- HighKing ( talk) 13:37, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
Ireland had gained legislative independence by the 1780s during "Grattan's Parliament" so I don't think it could be classified as subordinate by the time of the Act of Union a couple of decades later especially seeing as the Irish Parliament was bribed beyond belief to get it passed. Mabuska (talk) 21:56, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
Would it be acceptable to omit George VI from the list of the last of the Monarchs of the Irish Free State [2]]? The position seems to have been as stated at Constitution of Ireland[ [3]], and Irish head of state from 1936 to 1949. Please see also comment at Talk:George VI[ [4]] which in summary is: from the abdication, sovereignty in name and fact was assumed by the Irish government as recognised by the George VI and his governments of the UK and other realms - the king had no part in the government of the Irish Free State or its successor, and its government had no other claim of right upon the king - it was a republic de facto and, as far as the parties to the arrangement themselves were concerned, de jure - the parties allowed themselves some flexibility with reference to "head of state" - the legislation at the time of George VI's accession was intended to change the residual position of the king which had obtained in the latter days of George V's reign and to which Edward VIII had succeeded - if in some respects the legislation was as equivocal as the political circumstances, all principal parties at the time had to be wary of allowing questions of allegiance and loyalty be overstrained when negotiating a settlement for the future government of the people of Ireland. Qexigator ( talk) 18:26, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
I have added two links for See also. On further consideration: Instead of revising the article simply on the basis that Edward VIII was last monarch, this is to propose revising the article on the basis of what is described at Irish head of state from 1936 to 1949. The arrangement between the Irish Free State and kings Geoge V, Edward VIII, and George VI successively as explained there differs from what is said about those kings in the present article. Certain aspects were discussed above in 2008 "Ireland - a Separate Realm?", in 2010 "Division of the Crown" and in November "End of personal union, start of political union". The source for the parts of the present article under the headings "Monarchs of the Irish Free State" and "Monarchs of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" appears to be "Official Website of the Almanach de Saxe Gotha" for "Kingdom of Ireland" [5] - none other is cited. The Almanach states: "In 1937, the link to the U.K. Crown was repealed, but the monarch was the de jure King in the new State until 1949". But that is not borne out by the facts meticulously described in "Irish head of state from 1936 to 1949". Subject to any further comment here or at "Last monarch, Edward or George?" Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland, some rewording is, in my view, required for:
Revisions now made to clarify. Qexigator ( talk) 14:45, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
The information at List of Irish monarchs appears to duplicate, or be similar to, much of the information here. DrKay ( talk) 17:54, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
FYI Talk:The Queen of Ireland (film) → The Queen of Ireland. In ictu oculi ( talk) 16:02, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Monarchy of Ireland/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
I have re-assessed this article as class=B rather than class=list , because while it contains embedded lists, it is actually a substantive article, not just a bare list. --
BrownHairedGirl
(talk) • (
contribs) 14:19, 12 January 2008 (UTC) |
Last edited at 01:40, 1 January 2012 (UTC). Substituted at 00:20, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
"In early 1166, Ruaidhrí, King of Connacht, proceeded to Dublin where he was inaugurated King of Ireland without opposition." What is the source for this? Dublin and what is today county Dublin was at that time a Norwegian enclave and city. High Kings of Ireland (who by this time were fairly meaningless) have no history of coronations in Dublin. 86.142.165.157 ( talk) 17:50, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
"The Gaelic kingdoms of Ireland ended with the Norman invasion of Ireland (1169–1171), when the kingdom became a fief of the Holy See under the Lordship of the King of England." This line is incorrect, many Gaelic kingdoms lasted until the sixteenth century. For example, Hugh Roe O'Donnell was king of Tyrconnell in the late sixteenth century.
I'm not familiar enough with Irish history to feel comfortable making this edit. But it looks like Alister an Dubh was added here: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Monarchy_of_Ireland&diff=prev&oldid=1184873326) and along with it this citation:
Parks, David (1977). Life of all Irish Monarchs before 1200. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 97805214657.{{ cite book}}
: Check|isbn=
value: length ( help).
Alister was deleted here: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Monarchy_of_Ireland&diff=prev&oldid=1196807506, but the source stayed. There's also no page for Alister.
I don't think it exists as a book or chapter of a book. The ISBN is too short, and I wasn't able to find anything on Cambridge's website. It may just be a mistake/spam, but I'm trying to assume good faith. Snowman304| talk 03:42, 14 February 2024 (UTC)