![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Can I now ask why the Rouleau ruling is mentioned in "Constitutional Monarchy in Canada?" What purpose is it serving? -- gbambino 20:41, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
You objected to it being in monarchist arguments so I moved it. The purpose it serves is as one of the features of the monarchy in Canada. Homey 20:43, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
The Rouleau decision was to dismiss a petition, so there is no sense in which it can add anything new to the article, unless there is a legal scholar or other unbiased authority that can be cited which suggests otherwise. Quotations out of context are not suitable. Peter Grey 20:51, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Its presence in "Monarchist Arguments" was objectionable because you were trying to use it to counter what you say monarchists say, when, in fact, the extra quotations I added (and you attempted to delete) actually showed that Rouleau contradicts your claims and affirms what you say monarchists say. But ultimately it served no purpose there, the ruling is neither a republican nor a monarchist argument and added nothing new. Now that it's in "Constitutional Monarchy in Canada" it still serves no purpose, it still adds nothing that isn't already covered in the article. -- gbambino 21:02, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
I disagree. Homey 21:13, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
While I concded that gbambino's additions are unnecessary I see no where else in the article where it is established that "Union under the British Crown together with other Commonwealth countries" is a "constitutional principle." Homey 21:20, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
"I concded that gbambino's additions are unnecessary" Oh, they're necessary to eliminate the message you're trying to convey by conveniently leaving them out. But that doesn't negate my point that ultimately the ruling really means nothing to the article. -- gbambino 21:39, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Which is where Rouleau's quote now resides, appropriately enough. Gbambino's extraneous additions about Rouleau saying Crown of Canada once and King and Queen of Canada another time should not be included as they are irrelevent to the bullet point. Homey 01:36, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm providing no interpretation, the quotation is supporting the point being made in the paragraph within which it appears. Homey 03:41, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Before mediation, you promoted your personal, and highly biased, interpretation of Rouleau's decision, where you attempted to indicate that Rouleau had identified the Crown as subject to the UK Parliament (clearly impossible as such a statement would be beyond the authority of a Canadian court of law), rather than the obvious understanding that he meant the shared Crown. Since mediation began, you have instead inserted quotations, out of context and in clear contradiction to the intent of the decision, in the hope that readers will be confused. This is not good faith editing, it is a NPOV violation. You have merely adopted a more subtle tactic for the duration of mediation. Peter Grey 15:19, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Indeed, Andy admitted his purpose for inserting the out of context quotations at Talk:Commonwealth Realm:
Also:
So here we have admission that the purpose behind pulling quotes out of context is to convey the original research that there has been some sort of monarchist conspiracy theory for the past 70+ years to brainwash the world into thinking that the Crown operates separately and equally in each Realm, when it apparently doesn't. Andy is trying to convince readers that Canada is not an independent country, and is subservient to the British government due to his theory that there is no equality amongst the Commonwealth Realms. As no constitutional expert, lawyer, judge, scholar, publication, or even republican group supports this theory, not only is it not good faith editing, a NPOV violation, but is, without doubt, original research. -- gbambino 15:37, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Gbambino: a) I don't recall the mediator ever speaking of an NPOV violation or original research. They are your invention as is your monarchist conspiracy theory. Indeed, it seems that you latched on to Peter Grey's use of the phrase "original research" in the same manner as you latched on to his use of the word "metaphor" ie with no actual understanding of the concepts.
b) read the bullet point- the quotation relates to it very well contextually and factually. The fact that you don't like the quotation is not a good reason not to use it.
c) if you read what is actually said you'll see
Please relate your comments to the actual contents of the article, not to your interpretations and speculations. Homey 17:34, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Here is the bullet point in question. What, precisely, is your objection? Where is the "original research" or POV? Be specific and relate your answer only to what appears in the bullet point and not to arguments made previously in talk:
Homey 17:38, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
A well written essay will support assertion with evidence. The quotation provides evidence for the assertion made in the previous sentence. Homey 18:10, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Cite a passage from the article that supports your claim. Homey 18:13, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
"Cite a passage from the article that supports your claim." I don't have to. You've already made your resoning behind your drive to include the quotes clear:
Also:
Your comments are original research and POV, meaning your edits are against Wikipedia's good faith policy. -- gbambino 18:51, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
It's not that you "don't have to" it's that you cannot cite a passage from the article to support your contention. Homey 18:50, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Then you do not object to a wording more consistent with the style and exposition of the article, and preserving chronological order, such as:
My comments were made in the Talk page, gbambino, not in the article. Do you actually have a clue what you are talking about when you talk about NPOV and original research? These concepts apply to the content of articles only not to what people say in Talk pages.
The Rouleau quotations are not out of context. They just don't fit your particular interpretation and you have to torture them to try to make them fit. I'm sorry gbambino but neither you nor Peter are constitutional scholars and it is not for you to decide whether or not Rouleau is wrong or whether or not Rouleau really means what he says. You are not an authority so stop pretending that you are. You have failed to show that the line is either NPOV or "original research". It is in context, it explains the relationship between Crown and Commonwealth in a Canadian context, it is relevent to the bullet point and lends evidence to the assertion made in the bullet point. Just because you don't like the fact that Rouleau says "British" and would prefer it if he had fit your POV by saying "Canadian" is not sufficient reason for censoring the quotation. And I'm sorry, gbambino, but what you tried to add does not "contextualise" the quote as your additions have nothing to do with the bullet point and are, in any case, irrelevent.
And Peter, as you know, judical rulings trump interpretations written by law professors so even if you find a quotation by a legal scholar that better fits your POV it should not displace a quotation from a judicial ruling. Homey 19:03, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Yes, you don't like the quotation or indeed much of what Rouleau wrote so you and gbambino are trying to rationalise it away by assuming he didn't really mean what he said and therefore you want to remove it or finesse it away. Now *that* is POV.
I read the decision. Remember, you misunderstood his reference to the 1982 amending formula thinking that it might refer to any change in the succession, even one agreed upon by all the realms and I corrected you.
So what is your problem with the quotation, Peter, and what context would you put it in? Make a proposal. And can you persuade gbambino to stay out of this? I'm getting tired of dealing with his rantings and his habit of picking up a word from you like "original research" or "metaphor" and reciting it like some sort of mantra without any sort of understanding. Homey 19:31, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
However, unless you can find a ruling by a more senior court that contradicts Rouleau I'm afraid you'll just have to live with his quotation as it represents the highest court ruling in Canada on the question to date - even if you don't like it. He's a judge; you're just a monarchist, I'm afraid his word trumps yours. Homey 19:16, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Ggbambino, the conclusion you are making does not flow from the quotation you are using. Homey 19:21, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
The talk page is not a random chat room - people are trying to determine what is encyclopedic content. If you merely want to express your personal mythology, there are other outlets for that sort of thing. Peter Grey 19:30, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Do you have any practical suggestions to make? Homey 19:52, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
"Is that a little too difficult for you to understand?"
I'm afraid it is. What are you actually proposing for the article? Homey 20:03, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
And gbambino, you realise that by accusing me of "not editing in good faith" you are violating the guideline you are actually linking to which is Wikipedia:Assume good faith? "Assume good faith" means you shouldn't go around accusing people of editing in bad faith as that causes things to detiorate. I'm glad you're linking to policies and guidelines but it might do you better to actually read them first. Homey 20:20, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
From your avoidance of the question we can take it that you do wish to create confusion, purposefully create questions where there are none, by allowing people to only read the Rouleau quotations which you have carefully selected based on their importance to your POV and 'original research'. Of course, you have already admitted that earlier when stating that the quotations you chose support your 'original research' that the Commonwealth Realms are not equal, and Canada is subordinate to the British Parliament. I do believe that's rather manipulative and misleading, not to mention that it demonstrates a bit of a control problem... What am I proposing? Remove the quotations-- they add nothing new and their lack of context causes confusion to readers. Leave Rouleau at O'Donohue v. Canada, 2003. Whether or not interpretations should be included there is another matter, however. -- gbambino 20:30, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
"From your avoidance of the question we can take it that you do wish to create confusion, purposefully create questions where there are none,"
Please don't make ridiculous assertions. I wasn't avoiding the question - you were (deliberately?) unclear about what you were proposing. You didn't say, initially, you wanted to remove the quotation, you said you wanted people to read the entire ruling which implied pasting the entire ruling into the article, hence my request that you come up with something practical.
You are proposing censoring the article. A hyperlink to the ruling and/or a link to the article on the ruling would be appropriate. Removing the quotation is not appropriate. Homey 20:38, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
You are proposing removing a quotation you don't like - that's censorship. Now tell me, how are readers interested in the first bullet point supposed to know that it might be a good idea for them to read Rouleau if you are removing the quotation? After all, you claim you want people to read the entire ruling but your proposal would make it less likely that they would be aware the ruling exists. Homey 20:57, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
You claim the quotations are out of context (but provide no evidence of this) but your only alternative is having readers read the entire court ruling. By your logic we can't have any quotations anywhere in wikipedia since they are all out of context (ie not in their original source document). Homey 20:57, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
I think a very strong argument can be made that any change by Britain in the rules of succession would automatically apply to Canada by virtue of what the current constitution of Canada says. Completely false. What the Constitution of Canada says is: No Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom passed after the Constitution Act, 1982 comes into force shall extend to Canada as part of its law. The reverse situation, which is what you actually alluded to, is of course governed by parliamentary supremacy. Peter Grey 23:32, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Peter, even if you disagree with me on the effect of the 1867 preamble, the fact remains that your assertion that Rouleau was saying a constitutional amendment for a change to the succession would be necessary even if there was consensus among the realms is incorrect. He was only speaking of the need for a constitutional amendment in the case of a unilateral change in the succession by Canada.
gbambino wrote: "Why on earth do they need to specifically read Rouleau?" Hey, it was you who was asking me wheter I think people should read the entire decision. I guess you were being disingenuous when you asked that your previous question. In any case, as I said, I'm fine with having a hyperlink following the quotation so that readers can peruse the entire judgement - that is how we do things on wikipedia. Removing a quotation so that people will read an entire document is a bizarre, illogical and counterproductive solution and I see that not even Peter has endorsed it so given that you have no support for your proposal I will disregard it henceforth. Homey 15:41, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
There has been an attempt by the MLC and to some extent by the Department of Canadian Heritage to rebrand the monarchy and remove any reference to it being at all British. While there are political motives behind this the fact remains that constitutionally and legally it is not at all incorrect to refer to the Crown in Canada as the "British Crown". Moreover, in the context of the Crown under which the various Commonwealth realms are united it is pefectly correct to refer to this as the "British Crown" a) in order to distinguish from, say, the Danish Crown b) because there is no such thing as the "Commonwealth Crown.".
I'm sorry if the quotation is not consistent with the rebranding attempt but it is correct and yes, in context notwithstanding Gbambino's unique belief that something can only be in context if the entire document from which it is taken is included. Homey 15:41, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Peter, Rouleau never said that a constitutional amendment was necessary to change the succession in the manner outlined in the Statute of Westminster. That was your misinterpretation. He was only speaking of the hypothetical need for a constitutional amendment if Canada were to change the succession unilaterally. Homey 16:40, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Peter, any case before the courts will deal either with a specific incident or complaint involving an aggrieved party and/or with jurisdictional matters. The specific focus of Rouleau's ruling was the O'Donohue complaint regarding the constitutionality of the Act of Settlement prohibition on Catholics assuming the throne. However, the ruling had to deal with the jurisdictional question regarding the Act of Settlement and therefore on the relationship between the Crown, the Commonwealth Realms and Canada. It is that relationship that the quotation is in refernce to and that is relevent to the bullet point. Homey 16:45, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
I protected the page per HOTR. Try to come up with some consensus on the contentious issues. If you can't, I would suggest a Request for comment or for mediation. -- Woohookitty 01:18, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Peter Grey:
Gbambino:
There has been an attempt by the MLC and to some extent by the Department of Canadian Heritage to rebrand the monarchy and remove any reference to it being at all British. While there are political motives behind this the fact remains that constitutionally and legally it is not at all incorrect to refer to the Crown in Canada as the "British Crown". Moreover, in the context of the Crown under which the various Commonwealth realms are united it is pefectly correct to refer to this as the "British Crown" a) in order to distinguish from, say, the Danish Crown b) because there is no such thing as the "Commonwealth Crown.".
I'm sorry if the quotation is not consistent with the rebranding attempt but it is correct and yes, in context notwithstanding Gbambino's unique belief that something can only be in context if the entire document from which it is taken is included.
In short, I'm arguing that Peter and gbambino are allowing their POVs to drive their desire to remove a quotation from a legal judgement because the language used refers to the Crown as "British". As monarchists, they feel this is not desriable as it may reenforce public perceptions that the head of state is not Canadian.
Gbambino has been unable to prove that the quotation is out of context. Indeed, when directly challenged to prove his claim or to refute any of the content of the bullet point he response in ways that redefine the meaning of words like "context" and "content" or suggest he doesn't know what these terms mean (ie he discusses everything *but* the actual content of the bullet point in contention). Peter Grey seems to concede that the quote is relevent but derides it as unnecessary or superfluous even though it is from a judicial ruling and provides evidence for the point being asserted in the bullet point. Again, I suspect he does not want the quote there simply because he feels the reference to the "British Crown" is contrary to the view promoted by Canadian monarchists even though it is perfectly correct (as he, himself, has conceded elsewhere when he stated that in Canadian law there is no such term as "Canadian Crown" or "Crown of Canada). As such his argument for not including the quotation is disingenuous. Homey 15:50, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Here is the actual content of the bullet point in question. As you'll see if you read it, virtually all of gbambino's points have nothing to do with the acutal content of the article.
Gbambino, why can't you tell me what is actually incorrect about the bullet point? As for "creating doubt and confusion" the fact remains that we are under the British Crown, there are numerous sources for this and Rouleau himself says it explicitly. Why do you want to hide that fact? Homey 16:38, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
There is the legal term 'Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II in Right of Canada.' This term means the Queen of Canada subject to Canadian law and has absolutely nothing to do with the Queen of the UK or UK law. So in that sense Canada is not under the British Crown. It just happens to have a Queen who wears the British Crown as well.
Homey 16:59, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Gbambino, on your own talk page you concede that the entity in question is the "British Crown". You do so in a cicumlocutious manner by saying:
Of course, there is not such legal or constitutional phrase as "The Crown of the Commonwealth Realms", the current term remains "The British Crown" (even though you concede this grudgingly by saying it's "by default") yet you object to the use of the phrase "British Crown" in anything but an historical sense in the article. Why? When you concede that it is the correct term why are you trying to hide it? Homey 17:23, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Let's simply keep the quotation and also include a point similar to the following, copied from Commonwealth Realm: The Monarchy is thus no longer an exclusively British institution, although it may often be called British for historical reasons and for convenience. Peter Grey 17:24, 27 July 2005 (UTC) (As an aside, the quotation should go at the end of the bullet point so it's in chronological order 1926-1927-1931-2003. Peter Grey 17:28, 27 July 2005 (UTC))
I'm fine with that. Homey 17:31, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
It seems silly to have to include a phrase to counteract the confusion simply so a quote, which doesn't add anything and isn't even the most illustrative or finely worded, can be included. And Andy's motives behind the inclusion of this quote are still, admittedly, in bad faith. I'm also concerned that this will set a precedent from which Andy will go from article to article inserting Rouleau quotes to try and counter legal reality (remember, Commonwealth Realm hasn't been settled yet), and they will all have to be followed by some phrase to disambiguate. Are we prepared to do this? -- gbambino 17:37, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Gbambino, you've already conceded in your talk page that the phrase "British Crown" is perfectly correct (even if "by default") so stop playing games. Homey 17:42, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
"And Andy's motives behind the inclusion of this quote are still, admittedly, in bad faith."
Don't make things up. I've not "admitted" any bad faith and the charge is not only nonsense, it's a violation of Wikipedia guidelines. See Wikipedia:Assume good faith and read it. Homey 17:56, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Correct, but confusing without proper explanation. You've been playing games all along by focusing only on the specific words "British Crown" to assert that Canada has no sovereignty as our government is controlled by the UK Parliament. You've purposefully ignored the legal and expert sources (including Rouleau) which explain the "British Crown" as shared is different to the Crown within the jurisdiction of the UK parliament, and that no law in the UK, including succession laws, has any effect in Canada.
This is an encyclopaedia where facts should be explained as clearly as possible, not where republican fantasies should be allowed to run rampant.
If you're willing to accept that the Balfour Declaration, the Statute of Westminster, the Canada Act, and the Constitution Act grant Canada full sovereignty and independence; that the Statute of Westminster grants equality to all the Realms; that the Crown within Canada is a separate legal entity to the Crown within the UK, and that this means alterations to the UK line of succession do not have effect on the line in Canada, then I think we can proceed. -- gbambino 18:00, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
The preamble of the Constitution Act, 1867 states that we will have the same monarch as Britain. This is quoted by Rouleau in his ruling. Therefore, it is not at all clear that legally and constitutionally "alterations to the UK line of succession do not have effect on the line in Canada" indeed, both Rouleau and the Constitution Act suggest the opposite though we would need a further legal ruling on the question to be clear. I'm sorry, I'm not willing to suspend disbelief for you. But I don't know why this is such a big deal for you as I haven't put this in any of the articles. Homey
"focusing only on the specific words "British Crown" to assert that Canada has no sovereignty as our government is controlled by the UK Parliament."
Where have I said this? I have said that the preamble to the 1867 Constitution means that the UK parliament has jurisdiction over the succession but that's not the same as saying "our government is controlled by the UK Parliament" that is your distortion. Homey 18:19, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
1)I did not state that. I was commenting as to why you and Peter Grey object to the Rouleau quotation - you are assuming a motivation. 2) what of your admitting that the "British Crown" is the correct term to use to describe the Crown that reigns over your Commonwealth realms yet attempting at the same time to block any use of the phrase. Is that an act of good faith?
Again, do you concede that "British Crown" is a perfectly acceptable legal term? I've asked this question several times yet you refuse to answer it despite your post to your own talk page. Homey 18:19, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Then you're leaving Gbambino nothing to talk about as 90% of his "arguments" deal with things said in talk pages (or his distortions thereof) rather than the actual content of the article which seems to be a topic he is entirely unable or unwilling to discuss. Homey 18:19, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Okay then, let's proceed with Peter's proposal. Though, with caution. Andy, what you now say you've limited to talk pages you have indeed tried to push into articles previously. For the time being, it's gone, but just because this one Rouleau quote is being included does not give you the excuse to go pushing your bizzarre personal theories into articles again. -- gbambino 18:30, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Gbambino, don't try to defend the pathetic irrelevency of 90% of your arguments. I'm disgusted by your dishonest and disingenuous tactics and I'm not going to engage in you any further. I have less respect for you know than I did a week ago and I didn't think that was possible. Homey 18:50, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm heartbroken. Truly. -- gbambino 18:57, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to need to throw myself in here. Her Majesty Elizabeth II is the Queen of Canada outright—even if the United Kingdom were to cease their recognition of the Queen as their monarch, it would not have any effect on Her Majesty as our Queen, or the line to succeed her, provided that the Queen's Privy Council for Canada would continue to proclaim monarchs to the Canadian Crown in keeping with our own succession legislation. It has been established that the consent of our Parliament of Canada is required to maintain the unity between the Crowns of the Commonwealth Realms—our Realms just happen to have continued to agree on the line of succession to this day. Paradokuso 08:52, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
It's ironic that gbambino accuses me of quoting Rouleau out of context when he does precisely that to me.
Several times now, gbambino has posted this quotation:
"Any of the quotations in regards to the "British Crown" ... put into doubt the contention that there is a Canadian Crown or that it is equal to the British Crown."
while omitting what follows:
"I'm sorry Peter but you are letting your POV interfere with a fair presentation of the facts. If you want to be a fair editor then you can't filter out information because you think it might be misunderstood. Indeed, I don't think you are capable of being editing fairly or independently of your deeply seated POV." [3]
Looking at the whole paragraph, it's clear I'm commenting on what I think is Peter's motivation for opposing the Rouleau quotation. Gbambino acts in "bad faith" by excising the second part of my comment so that he can imply that the first setence refers to my motivation rather than Peter's.
Gbambino, you should be ashamed of yourself. Homey 18:37, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
The second quote gbambino uses: ""The quote makes clear that Commonwealth Realms, or at least Canada, are under the "British Crown" despite popular mythology that we are not."
This is in response to the question:
"Can you explain what you think the quote adds to the article? What idea it conveys that isn't already stated at least once?"
I stand by what I said. The quotation does make clear that we are under the "British Crown" despite mythology (or what I refer to as "rebranding") that the Crown is entirely Canadian. It does add that to the article and I'm sorry if that is in contradiction to your efforts to deny the British nature of the crown but to use this statement to argue that I am acting in "bad faith" is ridiculous or at the very least a logical fallacy. So I'm sorry gbambino, your "bad faith" charge is not only not proven, it was, if I may say so, made in bad faith. Homey 18:46, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
I realize that I'm coming somewhat late to this discussion (reading through the talk page took a fair bit of time ...), and that the main issue may now be resolved to the satisfaction of most parties. Nonetheless, I'll offer my opinions in the event that this dispute flares up again.
I have never doubted that the monarchy in Canada is essentially "British"; whether, to what extent, and in what sense it is also "Canadian" strikes me as a more obscure legal point, not likely to be decided in any definitive sense unless the issue is brought before the Supreme Court of Canada, or explicitly determined by the Canadian parliament.
As there is no definitive legal statement on this point, our attention should therefore turn to precedent:
The oft-cited Royal Styles and Titles Act of 1953 lists Elizabeth's official title as "Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith". From my perspective, this sets a strong precedent in favour of the monarch of Canada holding his/her title by virtue of being monarch of the United Kingdom. An objection could be raised that this Act required the approval of the Canadian parliament to come into force, or that it is not binding upon future decisions relating to the monarchy -- but this is beside the point of the present discussion.
Judge Rouleau's ruling may be not entirely definitive, but it draws upon the same basic interpretation -- as does St. Laurent's quote from 1953.
As to the article page: I have no strong objection to the wording of the current edit, although I wonder if this "British precedent" could be made clearer in an earlier section.
I've also moved a sentence, hopefully without changing its basic meaning. CJCurrie 05:41, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
The fact that the Royal Styles and Titles Act, 1953 still contains the words "United Kingdom" may affect perceptions about the "nationality" of the Monarchy, at least in regards to Canada. If Canada followed the example of almost every other Realm and removed the words "United Kingdom" from the Queen's title (as the Act discussed is one of Canadian Parliament, not the UK), then perceptions might shift slightly. However, the wording of the Royal Styles and Titles Act doesn't affect the constitutional reality that the Monarchy is symmetrically shared, and legally is as equally "Canadian" as it is "British" or "Australian," or that the Monarch of Canada is chosen by sovereign Canadian constitutional law, not British law.
Rouleau's ruling has no effect on either existing constitutional law, nor do I see it as altering any cultural perceptions of the Crown's "nationality" (save for those who desperately want it to).
I'm content with the wording as it is now, and there should be no mention of any "British precedent" unless it is in regards to cultural perceptions and republicans trying to enhance it for political reasons (though, this is now being somewhat dealt with at Commonwealth Realm. -- gbambino 15:31, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Just so we're all clear:
"The British monarch was Canada's head of state before the British Empire formally came into being in 1857, and remained Canada's head of state during the period of the British Empire." This is a little misleading, as Canada was not a state at that time, but a colony and then Dominion of the United Kingdom, unlike the situation today where the country is a completely sovereign nation, and thus a proper state. [gbambino]
"...the leader of this line remains first and foremost the monarch of Great Britain" Again, in what sense? On what grounds can one say the Queen is "first and foremost" the Queen of the United Kingdom over her role as Queen of Jamaica, or Queen of New Zealand? Again, legally, absolutely not. But culturally? Open to speculation. [gbambino]
"Elizabeth II reigns as Queen of Canada by virtue of her position as leader of the British Commonwealth of Nations-- and this, in turn, is a position which she holds by virtue of her standing as the Queen of Britain." Not at all. Elizabeth II reigns as Queen of Canada purely and absolutely by Canadian constitutional law. As well, she is not the head of the Commonwealth of Nations because she is the UK monarch, but because the nations of the Commonwealth decided she should be (thus, Charles will not automatically take his mother's place as head of the Commonwealth simply because he takes her place as Sovereign of the UK). -- gbambino 18:06, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
You're right -- I was using the phrase "Commonwealth of Nations" when "Commonwealth Realms" would have been the correct choice. Thanks for the correction. That said, the rest of your answer strikes me as a dodge. True, the rules of the game will obviously change if the UK changes its line of succession. If the UK *doesn't* change its line of succession, however, then the line of succession will remain the same in Britain as in the other Commonwealth nations -- and the monarch of Canada will hold this position by virtue of being the monarch of the British Commonwealth (which, in turn, he/she holds by virtue of being the leader of the historical British royal line).
As for the Commonwealth Realms, the Sovereign is chosen by each individual state's constitutional law, only the Statute of Westminster sets out the convention that they should all agree on who it should be to maintain a unified Crown. This logic seems awfully close to "Any successor you like, as long as it's Charles". CJCurrie 21:30, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
It is therefore simply a stated intent that consent of the realms be obtained. If that is inconvenient, it can simply be disregarded. (Which is basically what I've been saying all along). Homey 08:35, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Again, the "British Commonwealth" is now the Commonwealth of Nations, and the head of that organization has nothing to do with the constitutional monarchy of the 16 Commonwealth Realms. The Sovereign of Canada can be whomever Canada decides, however Canada has agreed through the Statute of Westminster to have the same sovereign not only as the UK, but as all the other Commonwealth Realms. This is why the Ontario Justice Rouleau refers to the relationship between the Commonwealth Realms as one of "symmetry." -- gbambino 16:43, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
That would be because the broad cultural perception in Canada (and elsewhere) is that the Crown is British.
But it's not just cultural - it remains the "British Crown" legally and, of course, historically. Homey 17:05, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
The Crown is "historically" British? Yes, as much as the Indian government is "historically" British. As for it being legally British, you've tried this argument elsewhere and it has been exposed as hollow. -- gbambino 18:51, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Gbambino is again showing his POV by removing factual information that he doesn't like or thinks reflects badly on the monarchist position. Several times he has softened references to the fact that only Canada and Grenada retain royal titles for the Queen that list the UK prior to themselves. He softens this by changing the reference to merely retaining the UK in their royal titles. Given that it is a fact that these two countries also list the UK prior to themselves there is no justifiable reason for Gbambino's edit aside from his political agenda. If he does not stop this behaviour I will ask for this article to be protected again and will open an RFC on Gbambino. Homey 20:59, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Go ahead, ask for the article to be protected and request an RFC. As there are clear and logical reasons for my edits (read below) I am not frightened by your hollow threats. However, if you're going to have a temper tantrum over the fact that some people wont stand idly by while you try to use Wikipedia as a means through which you can make the Monarchy in Canada seem as foreign as possible, I suspect the moderators would rather you did it in a corner at home rather than waste their time with it here. -- gbambino 21:33, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
The fact that the original 1953 Royal Styles and Titles Act passed in each Realm listed the Queen's position as Queen of the United Kingdom prior to her position as Queen of (relevant Realm) is already established in the sentence: "When a new Royal Style and Titles Act was passed at the beginning of Queen Elizabeth's reign, it explicitly identified the Queen's role in the United Kingdom and her role in Canada separately, with her role as Queen of the United Kingdom listed before her role as Queen of Canada."
It is then explained that only the UK, Canada and Grenada currently retain the 1953 Act: "Although most other Commonwealth Realms have since removed any explicit reference to the United Kingdom in their versions of Elizabeth II's title, Canada retains its original 1953 Act. As of 2005, other than the United Kingdom, Grenada is the only other Realm to do the same."
Thus, if it is already clear that the 1953 Act lists the Queen's role as Queen of the UK prior to her role as Queen of Canada or Grenada, and it is made clear that only Canada and Grenada retain the 1953 Act, then it naturally follows that Canada and Grenada are the only two to list Queen of the UK prior to Queen of Canada or Grenada. To state they remain the only two to list Queen of the UK prior to Queen of Canada or Grenada is both repetitious and a statement of the obvious. -- gbambino 21:23, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
I've rewritten the section in order to make it more succinct (thus addressing your stated concern) while also making it less oblique (which was my concern with your wording.
Homey
21:34, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Since the article is now protected please indicate here if my working is acceptable. If not suggest another wording, here on the talk page. Homey 21:36, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Nope, what you've done is fine by me. It achieves the same effect as I thought my edits did, perhaps better. -- gbambino 21:43, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Ok, thanks. Homey 21:57, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Not sure if this issue has already been raised but here goes...
The article states: A list of monarchs of New France, British North America and Canada:
I don't feel that this list is quite complete as there are several parts of Canada which were under British posession prior to 1763 (the earliest date given in the list for British monarchs). The date 1534 is given for the beginning of French rule, presumably dated to Cartier's claim, however Cabot's claim (on Newfoundland) is 1497. Also, Nova Scotia came under Scottish rule from 1621-1632(?), and more specifically, peninsular Nova Scotia came under permanent British rule beginning in 1713. Therefore I would say that English monarchs from 1497-1707 (date of the Act of Union) are needed, British monarchs 1707-present, as well as Scottish monarchs from 1621-1632(?), however I think these were from England's House of Stewart during this period(?). Plasma east 03:25, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
The Queen's title is actually Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God Queen of Canada and Her other Realms and Territories, Head of the Commonwealth.
In 1952 it was made clear that
It is depressing when something as basic as the royal title is shown in a monumentally wrong, made-up form in an encyclopædia article.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
21:48, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Actually, you're wrong. What's more depressing is when an editor arrogantly assumes he must be correct rather than check his facts. Please see the text of the Royal Style and Titles Act passed by the Canadian parliament and still in force:
Royal Style and Titles Act
CHAPTER R-12
An Act respecting the Royal Style and Titles
Preamble
WHEREAS the Prime Ministers and other representatives of Commonwealth countries assembled in London in the month of December, in the year one thousand nine hundred and fifty-two, considered the form of the Royal Style and Titles, and recognizing that the present form is not in accordance with present constitutional relations within the Commonwealth, concluded that, in the present stage of development of the Commonwealth relationship, it would be in accord with the established constitutional position that each member country should use for its own purposes a form suitable to its own particular circumstances but retaining a substantial element common to all;
AND WHEREAS the said representatives of all the Commonwealth countries concerned agreed to take such action as is necessary in each country to secure the appropriate constitutional approval for the changes now envisaged;
AND WHEREAS, in order to give effect to the aforesaid conclusions, it is desirable that the Parliament of Canada should assent to the issue of a Royal Proclamation establishing the Royal Style and Titles for Canada:
THEREFORE, Her Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate and House of Commons of Canada, enacts as follows:
Short title
1. This Act may be cited as the Royal Style and Titles Act.
Assent to Royal Style and Titles
2. The assent of the Parliament of Canada is hereby given to the issue by Her Majesty of Her Royal Proclamation under the Great Seal of Canada establishing for Canada the following Royal Style and Titles, namely:
Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.
R.S., c. R-12, s. 1.
Homey 21:59, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Actually, Australia's change in wording was during the ministry of Gough Whitlam in the 1970s. Canada's wording has never been changed. Grenada's title for the Queen also mentions the UK.
Homey
22:08, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
"As the royal website makes clear, "Defender of the Faith" is only used in the UK."
Actually, the royal website says "The words 'Defender of the Faith' are also included in the styles and titles used by The Queen in Canada and New Zealand." [4] Homey 22:21, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
The title referred to in the article (Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith) is the correct title, and Homey's examples are accurate. However, it is the first time a monarch has been titled as Queen of Canada. The wording of the title is a list of three separate ones: Queen of the UK, Queen of Canada, and Queen of her other Realms and territories. The Canadian Heritage website specifically refers to this: "Following the untimely death of her father King George VI on February 6, 1952, The Princess Elizabeth acceded to the Throne as Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II and was separately proclaimed Queen of Canada." 1 As well at CBC: 2 And the Bank of Canada: 3 -- gbambino 22:46, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Literally speaking, there is no such title as "Queen of Canada" however, the title for Elizabeth II does mean she is Canada's Queen. Anway, I think my edit referring to the mention of Canada is more correct but I concede it is a hair-splitting semantic argument. Homey 22:56, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Try reading the title you put in from the 1950s. It says unambiguously that she is Queen of Canada.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
22:58, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Hilarious! You wade in with yet another arrogantly dismissive post while completely evading the fact that you were absolutely wrong on the Queen's title in Canada, or that you were wrong in your assertions on "Defender of the Faith" or references to the UK elsewhere. Fear ÉIREANN, before you weigh in on this question don't you think you should first admit that you were wrong before and that moreoever, you compounded your error with your arrogant and pompous dismissal of what was actually a factual statement? Homey 23:02, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Try reading the title.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
23:03, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Are you capable of even a modicum of humility? Aren't you the least bit embarrassed about having said "It is depressing when something as basic as the royal title is shown in a monumentally wrong, made-up form in an encyclopædia article," when the title was actually correct until you changed it? Homey 23:04, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I had a wrong link to a draft bill that was not introduced. You however have been claiming for ages that there is no such title as "Queen of Canada". Explain then why the Act you quote explicitly creates it? It is rather strange that you continue to insist something that your own edit disproves.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
23:09, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I'd say it's not really hair splitting, and the first time there's been a separately titled Queen of Canada is important, both symbolically and legally. If we edit out the parts of the list that don't matter to this discussion, we're left with: Elizabeth the Second of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen. We can read this like we would any list, seeing three separate entities: United Kingdom, Canada, and other Realms and territories. So her one Canadian title calls her Queen of the UK, Queen of Canada, and Queen of her other Realms and territories. Can Heritage, the Bank of Canada, and the CBC (all govt. organizations) recognise and acknowledge this fact. --
gbambino
23:10, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I believe that when Her Majesty visits the United States, she is usually doing so as Queen of Canada rather than Queen of the United Kingdom. I'm thinking of when she opened the St. Lawrence Seaway jointly with President Dwight Eisenhower. Also, I seem to remember seeing pictures of her at the funeral procession for President John F. Kennedy accompanied by the Canadian Red Ensign (then Canada's flag) rather than the Royal Union Flag/ Union Jack. However, on their 2005 visit to the United States, the Prince of Wales and Duchess of Cornwall did not explicitly represent Canada. I remember seeing them meeting with President George W. Bush accompanied by the Union Jack rather than the Canadian Flag.-- MarshallStack 22:48, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
Do we have any evidence for the claims being made in regards to military unification? Homey 00:09, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
The question is was there a deliberate effort to downplay the crown or was this a side-effect? Is there anything in Cabinet minutes, political memoirs etc that indicates a deliberate republican policy as was implied in the edit? Homey 14:33, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
It's clear that a French line and a British line of monarchs ruled over different parts of Canada over the centuries. But when it comes to Elizabeth II we have to deal with the fact that the laws making her sovereign of Canada, the laws of succession outlining who inherits the Canadian throne, the laws titling her Queen of Canada, etc., are now all Canadian law, not British. That means a separate line of succession in Canada, even if it happens to be symmetrical to the UK's. (That each Realm now holds control over succession to its Crown was demonstrated in 1936 when all the Realms passed legislation allowing for George VI to accede to the throne except for Ireland who didn't pass their legislation until a day later - meaning that for one day Edward VIII remained King of Ireland while George VI became king of all the other countries.) So to say that the line of British monarchs still reigns over Canada is incorrect. -- gbambino 23:11, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I really don't want to get into the semantics of this again, but perhaps "Commonwealth line" would solve the problem. CJCurrie 23:15, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Not this topic specifically, but you'll probably remember that the question of a distinct "Canadian monarchy" has been raised before. I'm not going to repeat what I wrote at that time, but my objections remain applicable to this debate. CJCurrie 23:41, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
(i) My objections were factual, (ii) the "line" refers to more than simply the mechanism of succession.
What then do you call that line?
That would appear to be the question, wouldn't it? CJCurrie 23:57, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
a) is there any consensus among Canadian constitutional scholars that there is now a "Canadian" line in the monarchy. b) are there even any citable sources that make such a claim.
This seems to be a personal opinion extrapolated from the change in the royal title. I am unaware of any constitutional experts who claim that the change in the Royal Styles and Titles Act has created a new royal lineage (which is what "line" means) - let alone a consensus. In the absence of any citable sources (not original research but an actual source saying there is now a "Canadian line") the claim is POV and original research and does not belong here. Homey 00:03, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Could we add an asterix after Elizabeth within the "British line", and note the changed mechanism of succession in a footnote? CJCurrie 00:10, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I've tried a solution with "Shared line between Britain and Canada." Of course, the line is shared symmetrically with fifteen other countries, but "Shared line between Canada and other Commonwealth Realms" just seems too damn long. -- gbambino 00:41, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I suggest moving this section as well as the polls into it's own linked section. The Monarchy in Canada page should focus on the institution itself, it's history and it's present nature , while the debate page can focus on the debate itself between stakeholders. There seems to be enough info in the debate section to merit its own seperate entry. WJRB 15:05, March 9th 2006
I deleted the statistic on the cost of the crown per Canadian with the explanation that this was POV; after all, we don't include this sort of statistic for other government expenditures. Gbambino reverted this edit without the courtesy of an explanation. My argument still stands. I realize that the statistic is factual, but I would also point out that in other articles we do not divide expenditures by the number of Canadians. What reason is there to do so, other than to make the point that the monarchy costs little, which is a POV judgement. What do others think? HistoryBA 21:13, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I explained where the number came from, hence it is not my POV, but sourced information. If you read the report linked in the article 1, I'm sure you'll see that page one states the population number comes from Statistics Canada's Demographic Statistics from October 2004, and the total expenditure on the Crown is calculated in detail through the following 11 pages. As the conclusion of the report states, the overall cost was approximately $49,000,000, or $1.53 per person. The UK government has also broken down the head of state expenditures in a similar fashion: 2 -- gbambino 21:51, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
If it is accurate, if it it relevant and if it is factual then it goes in. That is the rule on content. The content is accurate, relevant and factual. Therefore it belongs in the article.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
00:31, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Though the information is accurate and factual, the Monarchy in Canada article has been a bit of a spring board for various points of view on the monarchy rather than delivering facts in context. If the Cost of the Crown is to be incorporated into the article it should be done in a historical context(compared to past costs), in context of privilages the monarch enjoys, or in context of the such events prompted the enquirey(if the monarchy debate is the context that prompted the enquirey it should be in another article on that debate), it should not be its own section. -- WJRB 11:48, 21 March 2006
The Good article nomination for Monarchy of Canada/Archive 2 has failed for the following reason:
I added some information regarding the Norse settlement at L'Anse aux Meadows, and it being the first North American colony settled by subjects of a non-indigenous king: Olaf I of Norway. As the kings of France who established other colonies in present day Canada are listed as Monarchs of Canada, would Olaf I count as well? The Norse colony only lasted three years, but would it technically still count? -- gbambino 17:07, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
It strikes me that this article is far too long. Am I the only one who thinks so? HistoryBA 18:59, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I disagree I found it by mistake but found myself reading it all and I learnt lots about the monarchy in Canada that I did not know before. Please dont reduce it, this info is not really available anywhere else that I have seen.
Gbambino, who rules this page with an iron fist, wants the list of "monarchs of Canada" to include every King of England and France who have existed while any part of what later became "Canada" was colonized. If one is to make a list of "Monarchs of Canada" and not simply "Monarchs who have presided over the colonization of North America" it seems to me that the list must begin in 1867, when Canada became a country. There was no "Canada" in the 1500's, so it seems rather spurious to identify someone as being "monarch of Canada" for that time period. J.J. 21:55, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
As it clearly says, the list is "A list of monarchs of New France, British North America and Canada" (and, no, Iron Fist himself did not write that). The first one in the list, Francis I, established French colonies in Acadia and Canada (again, not written by yours truly). So, unless you want to deny the existence of the colonies and territories known as Canada ( "The vast territories that were to be known as Acadia and Canada were..."), The Canadas, and the Province of Canada, I trust you'll reinstate the chart as it existed previously. If you really object to this, you'll have to push for the renaming of Canada under British Imperial Control (1764-1867), and a heavy editing of History of Canada, French Canadian, United Empire Loyalists, Province of Quebec (1763-1791), British North America, Quebec Act, Post-Confederation Canada (1867-1914), and so on, all of which often speak of "Canada" as existing in some form or another prior to 1867. -- gbambino 22:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Legally though there was no Canada until 1867, and as such no Monarch of what is today recognized as Canada. Sure Canada existed in other forms before, but by that same token you could create a "Kings of the United States" page and throw George the Third on and such. It's technically true that there have been King's of what later became the United States of America, but it wouldn't really make any sense. If JJ really wanted to get bitchy he could just delete everything up until when Lizzie became Queen, since she's the first legal Queen of Canada if I recall correctly. Regardless, JJ's in the right here (as usual). -- 24.68.182.5 09:20, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
You have a rather odd tendency to defer to authority rather than facts. The facts are quite clear: There was no "Canada" proper until 1867. Ergo there was no "Monarch" of Canada, King of Canada, Duke of Canada, Prime Minister of Canada, President of Canada, or anything else "of Canada" until Canada proper existed. Since you bring it up, I'm frankly not a fan of other historical writings that claim "Canada" existed prior to 1867 either, for example, those who claim that "Canada" fought the US in the 1812 War. It's revisionist history. There was Upper / Lowe Canada, and the United Province of Canada, but frankly I resent the implication that the history of those places is the history "of Canada" since they represented only a portion of what the country is today.
I have no problem with a list of "Monarchs of Canada," but if that title is to be used it seems revisionist to list a bunch of French and English monarchs who had nothing to do with the state of Canada as it exists today. The other guy makes a good point, one could just as easily make lengthy lists of "Monarchs of the United States" or "Monarchs of Ghana" etc with similar logic. But no one would consider such lists meaningful or factually accurate. J.J. 23:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
For a table of Canadian Heads of State, Henry VII and Francis I would certainly be out of place, but the table is simply describing Monarchs who have ruled over the territory which is now Canada. The creation of the Dominion of Canada was not a radical break in constitutional continuity the way the Rebellion in what is now the United States was. Canada's history has been largely characterized by gradual change. Francis I was king over the territory of Canada in one sense, Henry IV would have a much stronger claim as sovereign over Canada (there are statues of him to this day), and Elizabeth II was the only one to actually be crowned as Queen of Canada. Most English Canadians think of Canada as existing, in one evolving form or another, from the colonizing by the Loyalist diaspora. Then French Canadians laugh because actually half of Canada's history had already happened by then. Peter Grey 03:23, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
What's the point in reversing the order of the groups? It's sat the way it is for ages - the Monarchist League is older and larger than Citizens for a Republic, therefore it was put first. Is there some Wikipedia policy that I don't know of which states that organizations must be listed in alphabetical order? Or, is this an attempt at self promotion? -- gbambino 23:27, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I've removed this organization from the examples given of Royal Patronage. I can't find any reference to patronage on their website and am assuming that this is vandalism. If not, the fact that they make no mention of patronage suggests that they don't consider it all that important and therefore perhaps is not the best of examples. Kscheffler 06:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Below is a list of Canadian style guides. In situations in which there is a difference between US & British spelling, none recommend -ise, several recommend -ize, some that do not recommend -ize use -ize (as in capitalize, authorize, organize) -- JimWae 20:51, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
"Defender of the Faith"? Please, what nonsense. I think the governor-general dropped that title the last time I looked at the Web site. Some empirical aspects of the monarchy would be useful; and much less of the anachronistic nonsense.-- Lance6968 07:04, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
-- Ggbroad 17:46, 6 January 2007 (UTC)==(Note: here "British Crown" is the traditional reference to the Crown shared amongst the Realms, not the Crown in Right of the UK.)==
I have removed the above statement because it contradicts the actual quote. TharkunColl 23:19, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I have also removed this clause, because it is patently untrue, "which gives Canada an almost identical system of government as the UK and other Commonwealth Realms" TharkunColl 23:25, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I have also removed this as unsourced, "The Monarchy thus ceased to be an exclusively British institution, although it has often been called "British" since this time (in both legal and common language) for reasons historical, legal, and of convenience." TharkunColl 23:29, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I have removed this because it was never anything more than a proposal that was rejected, "(originally intended to be named the Kingdom of Canada)" TharkunColl 23:47, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
This whole article is full of tendentious wishful thinking. It needs a great deal of pruning. TharkunColl 23:52, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I realize that this is a quotation: "The Canadian Crown continues as a key element of our parliamentary democracy and an enduring symbol that represents all generations of Canadians and the best that is our country" and in one place it is cited as such. In another, it is not, and hence constitutes the clearest possible example of pov and the use of weasel words. Well, the end of it "represents...the best that is our country" certainly is. -- Ggbroad 17:46, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
This talk page is filled with objections to the POV of this article. Jonawiki 18:06, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I randomly backtracked the closest footnote for a random assortment of statements in the article. The footnotes did NOT mention any of the following statements. And this was a cursory random sample. This is a joke.
Please provide the source for the following facts and assertions:
Of course, every time I place a fact or unreference tag, G2bambino just reverts it and then provides no explanation. Jonawiki 21:18, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
This is a dispute about whether this article has appropriate length, neutrality and attribution. 18:20, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
This article should be unlocked to include some information about the controversy regarding the —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ve2jgs ( talk • contribs) 00:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC).
So Canada DOES have a queen then? And she is considered the queen of Canada? Please answer, my 'friend' and I are having a rather heated argument. I think she's going to hurt me. Bobafett424242 18:30, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Can I now ask why the Rouleau ruling is mentioned in "Constitutional Monarchy in Canada?" What purpose is it serving? -- gbambino 20:41, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
You objected to it being in monarchist arguments so I moved it. The purpose it serves is as one of the features of the monarchy in Canada. Homey 20:43, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
The Rouleau decision was to dismiss a petition, so there is no sense in which it can add anything new to the article, unless there is a legal scholar or other unbiased authority that can be cited which suggests otherwise. Quotations out of context are not suitable. Peter Grey 20:51, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Its presence in "Monarchist Arguments" was objectionable because you were trying to use it to counter what you say monarchists say, when, in fact, the extra quotations I added (and you attempted to delete) actually showed that Rouleau contradicts your claims and affirms what you say monarchists say. But ultimately it served no purpose there, the ruling is neither a republican nor a monarchist argument and added nothing new. Now that it's in "Constitutional Monarchy in Canada" it still serves no purpose, it still adds nothing that isn't already covered in the article. -- gbambino 21:02, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
I disagree. Homey 21:13, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
While I concded that gbambino's additions are unnecessary I see no where else in the article where it is established that "Union under the British Crown together with other Commonwealth countries" is a "constitutional principle." Homey 21:20, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
"I concded that gbambino's additions are unnecessary" Oh, they're necessary to eliminate the message you're trying to convey by conveniently leaving them out. But that doesn't negate my point that ultimately the ruling really means nothing to the article. -- gbambino 21:39, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Which is where Rouleau's quote now resides, appropriately enough. Gbambino's extraneous additions about Rouleau saying Crown of Canada once and King and Queen of Canada another time should not be included as they are irrelevent to the bullet point. Homey 01:36, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm providing no interpretation, the quotation is supporting the point being made in the paragraph within which it appears. Homey 03:41, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Before mediation, you promoted your personal, and highly biased, interpretation of Rouleau's decision, where you attempted to indicate that Rouleau had identified the Crown as subject to the UK Parliament (clearly impossible as such a statement would be beyond the authority of a Canadian court of law), rather than the obvious understanding that he meant the shared Crown. Since mediation began, you have instead inserted quotations, out of context and in clear contradiction to the intent of the decision, in the hope that readers will be confused. This is not good faith editing, it is a NPOV violation. You have merely adopted a more subtle tactic for the duration of mediation. Peter Grey 15:19, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Indeed, Andy admitted his purpose for inserting the out of context quotations at Talk:Commonwealth Realm:
Also:
So here we have admission that the purpose behind pulling quotes out of context is to convey the original research that there has been some sort of monarchist conspiracy theory for the past 70+ years to brainwash the world into thinking that the Crown operates separately and equally in each Realm, when it apparently doesn't. Andy is trying to convince readers that Canada is not an independent country, and is subservient to the British government due to his theory that there is no equality amongst the Commonwealth Realms. As no constitutional expert, lawyer, judge, scholar, publication, or even republican group supports this theory, not only is it not good faith editing, a NPOV violation, but is, without doubt, original research. -- gbambino 15:37, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Gbambino: a) I don't recall the mediator ever speaking of an NPOV violation or original research. They are your invention as is your monarchist conspiracy theory. Indeed, it seems that you latched on to Peter Grey's use of the phrase "original research" in the same manner as you latched on to his use of the word "metaphor" ie with no actual understanding of the concepts.
b) read the bullet point- the quotation relates to it very well contextually and factually. The fact that you don't like the quotation is not a good reason not to use it.
c) if you read what is actually said you'll see
Please relate your comments to the actual contents of the article, not to your interpretations and speculations. Homey 17:34, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Here is the bullet point in question. What, precisely, is your objection? Where is the "original research" or POV? Be specific and relate your answer only to what appears in the bullet point and not to arguments made previously in talk:
Homey 17:38, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
A well written essay will support assertion with evidence. The quotation provides evidence for the assertion made in the previous sentence. Homey 18:10, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Cite a passage from the article that supports your claim. Homey 18:13, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
"Cite a passage from the article that supports your claim." I don't have to. You've already made your resoning behind your drive to include the quotes clear:
Also:
Your comments are original research and POV, meaning your edits are against Wikipedia's good faith policy. -- gbambino 18:51, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
It's not that you "don't have to" it's that you cannot cite a passage from the article to support your contention. Homey 18:50, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Then you do not object to a wording more consistent with the style and exposition of the article, and preserving chronological order, such as:
My comments were made in the Talk page, gbambino, not in the article. Do you actually have a clue what you are talking about when you talk about NPOV and original research? These concepts apply to the content of articles only not to what people say in Talk pages.
The Rouleau quotations are not out of context. They just don't fit your particular interpretation and you have to torture them to try to make them fit. I'm sorry gbambino but neither you nor Peter are constitutional scholars and it is not for you to decide whether or not Rouleau is wrong or whether or not Rouleau really means what he says. You are not an authority so stop pretending that you are. You have failed to show that the line is either NPOV or "original research". It is in context, it explains the relationship between Crown and Commonwealth in a Canadian context, it is relevent to the bullet point and lends evidence to the assertion made in the bullet point. Just because you don't like the fact that Rouleau says "British" and would prefer it if he had fit your POV by saying "Canadian" is not sufficient reason for censoring the quotation. And I'm sorry, gbambino, but what you tried to add does not "contextualise" the quote as your additions have nothing to do with the bullet point and are, in any case, irrelevent.
And Peter, as you know, judical rulings trump interpretations written by law professors so even if you find a quotation by a legal scholar that better fits your POV it should not displace a quotation from a judicial ruling. Homey 19:03, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Yes, you don't like the quotation or indeed much of what Rouleau wrote so you and gbambino are trying to rationalise it away by assuming he didn't really mean what he said and therefore you want to remove it or finesse it away. Now *that* is POV.
I read the decision. Remember, you misunderstood his reference to the 1982 amending formula thinking that it might refer to any change in the succession, even one agreed upon by all the realms and I corrected you.
So what is your problem with the quotation, Peter, and what context would you put it in? Make a proposal. And can you persuade gbambino to stay out of this? I'm getting tired of dealing with his rantings and his habit of picking up a word from you like "original research" or "metaphor" and reciting it like some sort of mantra without any sort of understanding. Homey 19:31, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
However, unless you can find a ruling by a more senior court that contradicts Rouleau I'm afraid you'll just have to live with his quotation as it represents the highest court ruling in Canada on the question to date - even if you don't like it. He's a judge; you're just a monarchist, I'm afraid his word trumps yours. Homey 19:16, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Ggbambino, the conclusion you are making does not flow from the quotation you are using. Homey 19:21, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
The talk page is not a random chat room - people are trying to determine what is encyclopedic content. If you merely want to express your personal mythology, there are other outlets for that sort of thing. Peter Grey 19:30, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Do you have any practical suggestions to make? Homey 19:52, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
"Is that a little too difficult for you to understand?"
I'm afraid it is. What are you actually proposing for the article? Homey 20:03, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
And gbambino, you realise that by accusing me of "not editing in good faith" you are violating the guideline you are actually linking to which is Wikipedia:Assume good faith? "Assume good faith" means you shouldn't go around accusing people of editing in bad faith as that causes things to detiorate. I'm glad you're linking to policies and guidelines but it might do you better to actually read them first. Homey 20:20, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
From your avoidance of the question we can take it that you do wish to create confusion, purposefully create questions where there are none, by allowing people to only read the Rouleau quotations which you have carefully selected based on their importance to your POV and 'original research'. Of course, you have already admitted that earlier when stating that the quotations you chose support your 'original research' that the Commonwealth Realms are not equal, and Canada is subordinate to the British Parliament. I do believe that's rather manipulative and misleading, not to mention that it demonstrates a bit of a control problem... What am I proposing? Remove the quotations-- they add nothing new and their lack of context causes confusion to readers. Leave Rouleau at O'Donohue v. Canada, 2003. Whether or not interpretations should be included there is another matter, however. -- gbambino 20:30, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
"From your avoidance of the question we can take it that you do wish to create confusion, purposefully create questions where there are none,"
Please don't make ridiculous assertions. I wasn't avoiding the question - you were (deliberately?) unclear about what you were proposing. You didn't say, initially, you wanted to remove the quotation, you said you wanted people to read the entire ruling which implied pasting the entire ruling into the article, hence my request that you come up with something practical.
You are proposing censoring the article. A hyperlink to the ruling and/or a link to the article on the ruling would be appropriate. Removing the quotation is not appropriate. Homey 20:38, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
You are proposing removing a quotation you don't like - that's censorship. Now tell me, how are readers interested in the first bullet point supposed to know that it might be a good idea for them to read Rouleau if you are removing the quotation? After all, you claim you want people to read the entire ruling but your proposal would make it less likely that they would be aware the ruling exists. Homey 20:57, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
You claim the quotations are out of context (but provide no evidence of this) but your only alternative is having readers read the entire court ruling. By your logic we can't have any quotations anywhere in wikipedia since they are all out of context (ie not in their original source document). Homey 20:57, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
I think a very strong argument can be made that any change by Britain in the rules of succession would automatically apply to Canada by virtue of what the current constitution of Canada says. Completely false. What the Constitution of Canada says is: No Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom passed after the Constitution Act, 1982 comes into force shall extend to Canada as part of its law. The reverse situation, which is what you actually alluded to, is of course governed by parliamentary supremacy. Peter Grey 23:32, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Peter, even if you disagree with me on the effect of the 1867 preamble, the fact remains that your assertion that Rouleau was saying a constitutional amendment for a change to the succession would be necessary even if there was consensus among the realms is incorrect. He was only speaking of the need for a constitutional amendment in the case of a unilateral change in the succession by Canada.
gbambino wrote: "Why on earth do they need to specifically read Rouleau?" Hey, it was you who was asking me wheter I think people should read the entire decision. I guess you were being disingenuous when you asked that your previous question. In any case, as I said, I'm fine with having a hyperlink following the quotation so that readers can peruse the entire judgement - that is how we do things on wikipedia. Removing a quotation so that people will read an entire document is a bizarre, illogical and counterproductive solution and I see that not even Peter has endorsed it so given that you have no support for your proposal I will disregard it henceforth. Homey 15:41, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
There has been an attempt by the MLC and to some extent by the Department of Canadian Heritage to rebrand the monarchy and remove any reference to it being at all British. While there are political motives behind this the fact remains that constitutionally and legally it is not at all incorrect to refer to the Crown in Canada as the "British Crown". Moreover, in the context of the Crown under which the various Commonwealth realms are united it is pefectly correct to refer to this as the "British Crown" a) in order to distinguish from, say, the Danish Crown b) because there is no such thing as the "Commonwealth Crown.".
I'm sorry if the quotation is not consistent with the rebranding attempt but it is correct and yes, in context notwithstanding Gbambino's unique belief that something can only be in context if the entire document from which it is taken is included. Homey 15:41, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Peter, Rouleau never said that a constitutional amendment was necessary to change the succession in the manner outlined in the Statute of Westminster. That was your misinterpretation. He was only speaking of the hypothetical need for a constitutional amendment if Canada were to change the succession unilaterally. Homey 16:40, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Peter, any case before the courts will deal either with a specific incident or complaint involving an aggrieved party and/or with jurisdictional matters. The specific focus of Rouleau's ruling was the O'Donohue complaint regarding the constitutionality of the Act of Settlement prohibition on Catholics assuming the throne. However, the ruling had to deal with the jurisdictional question regarding the Act of Settlement and therefore on the relationship between the Crown, the Commonwealth Realms and Canada. It is that relationship that the quotation is in refernce to and that is relevent to the bullet point. Homey 16:45, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
I protected the page per HOTR. Try to come up with some consensus on the contentious issues. If you can't, I would suggest a Request for comment or for mediation. -- Woohookitty 01:18, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Peter Grey:
Gbambino:
There has been an attempt by the MLC and to some extent by the Department of Canadian Heritage to rebrand the monarchy and remove any reference to it being at all British. While there are political motives behind this the fact remains that constitutionally and legally it is not at all incorrect to refer to the Crown in Canada as the "British Crown". Moreover, in the context of the Crown under which the various Commonwealth realms are united it is pefectly correct to refer to this as the "British Crown" a) in order to distinguish from, say, the Danish Crown b) because there is no such thing as the "Commonwealth Crown.".
I'm sorry if the quotation is not consistent with the rebranding attempt but it is correct and yes, in context notwithstanding Gbambino's unique belief that something can only be in context if the entire document from which it is taken is included.
In short, I'm arguing that Peter and gbambino are allowing their POVs to drive their desire to remove a quotation from a legal judgement because the language used refers to the Crown as "British". As monarchists, they feel this is not desriable as it may reenforce public perceptions that the head of state is not Canadian.
Gbambino has been unable to prove that the quotation is out of context. Indeed, when directly challenged to prove his claim or to refute any of the content of the bullet point he response in ways that redefine the meaning of words like "context" and "content" or suggest he doesn't know what these terms mean (ie he discusses everything *but* the actual content of the bullet point in contention). Peter Grey seems to concede that the quote is relevent but derides it as unnecessary or superfluous even though it is from a judicial ruling and provides evidence for the point being asserted in the bullet point. Again, I suspect he does not want the quote there simply because he feels the reference to the "British Crown" is contrary to the view promoted by Canadian monarchists even though it is perfectly correct (as he, himself, has conceded elsewhere when he stated that in Canadian law there is no such term as "Canadian Crown" or "Crown of Canada). As such his argument for not including the quotation is disingenuous. Homey 15:50, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Here is the actual content of the bullet point in question. As you'll see if you read it, virtually all of gbambino's points have nothing to do with the acutal content of the article.
Gbambino, why can't you tell me what is actually incorrect about the bullet point? As for "creating doubt and confusion" the fact remains that we are under the British Crown, there are numerous sources for this and Rouleau himself says it explicitly. Why do you want to hide that fact? Homey 16:38, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
There is the legal term 'Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II in Right of Canada.' This term means the Queen of Canada subject to Canadian law and has absolutely nothing to do with the Queen of the UK or UK law. So in that sense Canada is not under the British Crown. It just happens to have a Queen who wears the British Crown as well.
Homey 16:59, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Gbambino, on your own talk page you concede that the entity in question is the "British Crown". You do so in a cicumlocutious manner by saying:
Of course, there is not such legal or constitutional phrase as "The Crown of the Commonwealth Realms", the current term remains "The British Crown" (even though you concede this grudgingly by saying it's "by default") yet you object to the use of the phrase "British Crown" in anything but an historical sense in the article. Why? When you concede that it is the correct term why are you trying to hide it? Homey 17:23, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Let's simply keep the quotation and also include a point similar to the following, copied from Commonwealth Realm: The Monarchy is thus no longer an exclusively British institution, although it may often be called British for historical reasons and for convenience. Peter Grey 17:24, 27 July 2005 (UTC) (As an aside, the quotation should go at the end of the bullet point so it's in chronological order 1926-1927-1931-2003. Peter Grey 17:28, 27 July 2005 (UTC))
I'm fine with that. Homey 17:31, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
It seems silly to have to include a phrase to counteract the confusion simply so a quote, which doesn't add anything and isn't even the most illustrative or finely worded, can be included. And Andy's motives behind the inclusion of this quote are still, admittedly, in bad faith. I'm also concerned that this will set a precedent from which Andy will go from article to article inserting Rouleau quotes to try and counter legal reality (remember, Commonwealth Realm hasn't been settled yet), and they will all have to be followed by some phrase to disambiguate. Are we prepared to do this? -- gbambino 17:37, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Gbambino, you've already conceded in your talk page that the phrase "British Crown" is perfectly correct (even if "by default") so stop playing games. Homey 17:42, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
"And Andy's motives behind the inclusion of this quote are still, admittedly, in bad faith."
Don't make things up. I've not "admitted" any bad faith and the charge is not only nonsense, it's a violation of Wikipedia guidelines. See Wikipedia:Assume good faith and read it. Homey 17:56, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Correct, but confusing without proper explanation. You've been playing games all along by focusing only on the specific words "British Crown" to assert that Canada has no sovereignty as our government is controlled by the UK Parliament. You've purposefully ignored the legal and expert sources (including Rouleau) which explain the "British Crown" as shared is different to the Crown within the jurisdiction of the UK parliament, and that no law in the UK, including succession laws, has any effect in Canada.
This is an encyclopaedia where facts should be explained as clearly as possible, not where republican fantasies should be allowed to run rampant.
If you're willing to accept that the Balfour Declaration, the Statute of Westminster, the Canada Act, and the Constitution Act grant Canada full sovereignty and independence; that the Statute of Westminster grants equality to all the Realms; that the Crown within Canada is a separate legal entity to the Crown within the UK, and that this means alterations to the UK line of succession do not have effect on the line in Canada, then I think we can proceed. -- gbambino 18:00, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
The preamble of the Constitution Act, 1867 states that we will have the same monarch as Britain. This is quoted by Rouleau in his ruling. Therefore, it is not at all clear that legally and constitutionally "alterations to the UK line of succession do not have effect on the line in Canada" indeed, both Rouleau and the Constitution Act suggest the opposite though we would need a further legal ruling on the question to be clear. I'm sorry, I'm not willing to suspend disbelief for you. But I don't know why this is such a big deal for you as I haven't put this in any of the articles. Homey
"focusing only on the specific words "British Crown" to assert that Canada has no sovereignty as our government is controlled by the UK Parliament."
Where have I said this? I have said that the preamble to the 1867 Constitution means that the UK parliament has jurisdiction over the succession but that's not the same as saying "our government is controlled by the UK Parliament" that is your distortion. Homey 18:19, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
1)I did not state that. I was commenting as to why you and Peter Grey object to the Rouleau quotation - you are assuming a motivation. 2) what of your admitting that the "British Crown" is the correct term to use to describe the Crown that reigns over your Commonwealth realms yet attempting at the same time to block any use of the phrase. Is that an act of good faith?
Again, do you concede that "British Crown" is a perfectly acceptable legal term? I've asked this question several times yet you refuse to answer it despite your post to your own talk page. Homey 18:19, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Then you're leaving Gbambino nothing to talk about as 90% of his "arguments" deal with things said in talk pages (or his distortions thereof) rather than the actual content of the article which seems to be a topic he is entirely unable or unwilling to discuss. Homey 18:19, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Okay then, let's proceed with Peter's proposal. Though, with caution. Andy, what you now say you've limited to talk pages you have indeed tried to push into articles previously. For the time being, it's gone, but just because this one Rouleau quote is being included does not give you the excuse to go pushing your bizzarre personal theories into articles again. -- gbambino 18:30, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Gbambino, don't try to defend the pathetic irrelevency of 90% of your arguments. I'm disgusted by your dishonest and disingenuous tactics and I'm not going to engage in you any further. I have less respect for you know than I did a week ago and I didn't think that was possible. Homey 18:50, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm heartbroken. Truly. -- gbambino 18:57, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to need to throw myself in here. Her Majesty Elizabeth II is the Queen of Canada outright—even if the United Kingdom were to cease their recognition of the Queen as their monarch, it would not have any effect on Her Majesty as our Queen, or the line to succeed her, provided that the Queen's Privy Council for Canada would continue to proclaim monarchs to the Canadian Crown in keeping with our own succession legislation. It has been established that the consent of our Parliament of Canada is required to maintain the unity between the Crowns of the Commonwealth Realms—our Realms just happen to have continued to agree on the line of succession to this day. Paradokuso 08:52, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
It's ironic that gbambino accuses me of quoting Rouleau out of context when he does precisely that to me.
Several times now, gbambino has posted this quotation:
"Any of the quotations in regards to the "British Crown" ... put into doubt the contention that there is a Canadian Crown or that it is equal to the British Crown."
while omitting what follows:
"I'm sorry Peter but you are letting your POV interfere with a fair presentation of the facts. If you want to be a fair editor then you can't filter out information because you think it might be misunderstood. Indeed, I don't think you are capable of being editing fairly or independently of your deeply seated POV." [3]
Looking at the whole paragraph, it's clear I'm commenting on what I think is Peter's motivation for opposing the Rouleau quotation. Gbambino acts in "bad faith" by excising the second part of my comment so that he can imply that the first setence refers to my motivation rather than Peter's.
Gbambino, you should be ashamed of yourself. Homey 18:37, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
The second quote gbambino uses: ""The quote makes clear that Commonwealth Realms, or at least Canada, are under the "British Crown" despite popular mythology that we are not."
This is in response to the question:
"Can you explain what you think the quote adds to the article? What idea it conveys that isn't already stated at least once?"
I stand by what I said. The quotation does make clear that we are under the "British Crown" despite mythology (or what I refer to as "rebranding") that the Crown is entirely Canadian. It does add that to the article and I'm sorry if that is in contradiction to your efforts to deny the British nature of the crown but to use this statement to argue that I am acting in "bad faith" is ridiculous or at the very least a logical fallacy. So I'm sorry gbambino, your "bad faith" charge is not only not proven, it was, if I may say so, made in bad faith. Homey 18:46, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
I realize that I'm coming somewhat late to this discussion (reading through the talk page took a fair bit of time ...), and that the main issue may now be resolved to the satisfaction of most parties. Nonetheless, I'll offer my opinions in the event that this dispute flares up again.
I have never doubted that the monarchy in Canada is essentially "British"; whether, to what extent, and in what sense it is also "Canadian" strikes me as a more obscure legal point, not likely to be decided in any definitive sense unless the issue is brought before the Supreme Court of Canada, or explicitly determined by the Canadian parliament.
As there is no definitive legal statement on this point, our attention should therefore turn to precedent:
The oft-cited Royal Styles and Titles Act of 1953 lists Elizabeth's official title as "Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith". From my perspective, this sets a strong precedent in favour of the monarch of Canada holding his/her title by virtue of being monarch of the United Kingdom. An objection could be raised that this Act required the approval of the Canadian parliament to come into force, or that it is not binding upon future decisions relating to the monarchy -- but this is beside the point of the present discussion.
Judge Rouleau's ruling may be not entirely definitive, but it draws upon the same basic interpretation -- as does St. Laurent's quote from 1953.
As to the article page: I have no strong objection to the wording of the current edit, although I wonder if this "British precedent" could be made clearer in an earlier section.
I've also moved a sentence, hopefully without changing its basic meaning. CJCurrie 05:41, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
The fact that the Royal Styles and Titles Act, 1953 still contains the words "United Kingdom" may affect perceptions about the "nationality" of the Monarchy, at least in regards to Canada. If Canada followed the example of almost every other Realm and removed the words "United Kingdom" from the Queen's title (as the Act discussed is one of Canadian Parliament, not the UK), then perceptions might shift slightly. However, the wording of the Royal Styles and Titles Act doesn't affect the constitutional reality that the Monarchy is symmetrically shared, and legally is as equally "Canadian" as it is "British" or "Australian," or that the Monarch of Canada is chosen by sovereign Canadian constitutional law, not British law.
Rouleau's ruling has no effect on either existing constitutional law, nor do I see it as altering any cultural perceptions of the Crown's "nationality" (save for those who desperately want it to).
I'm content with the wording as it is now, and there should be no mention of any "British precedent" unless it is in regards to cultural perceptions and republicans trying to enhance it for political reasons (though, this is now being somewhat dealt with at Commonwealth Realm. -- gbambino 15:31, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Just so we're all clear:
"The British monarch was Canada's head of state before the British Empire formally came into being in 1857, and remained Canada's head of state during the period of the British Empire." This is a little misleading, as Canada was not a state at that time, but a colony and then Dominion of the United Kingdom, unlike the situation today where the country is a completely sovereign nation, and thus a proper state. [gbambino]
"...the leader of this line remains first and foremost the monarch of Great Britain" Again, in what sense? On what grounds can one say the Queen is "first and foremost" the Queen of the United Kingdom over her role as Queen of Jamaica, or Queen of New Zealand? Again, legally, absolutely not. But culturally? Open to speculation. [gbambino]
"Elizabeth II reigns as Queen of Canada by virtue of her position as leader of the British Commonwealth of Nations-- and this, in turn, is a position which she holds by virtue of her standing as the Queen of Britain." Not at all. Elizabeth II reigns as Queen of Canada purely and absolutely by Canadian constitutional law. As well, she is not the head of the Commonwealth of Nations because she is the UK monarch, but because the nations of the Commonwealth decided she should be (thus, Charles will not automatically take his mother's place as head of the Commonwealth simply because he takes her place as Sovereign of the UK). -- gbambino 18:06, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
You're right -- I was using the phrase "Commonwealth of Nations" when "Commonwealth Realms" would have been the correct choice. Thanks for the correction. That said, the rest of your answer strikes me as a dodge. True, the rules of the game will obviously change if the UK changes its line of succession. If the UK *doesn't* change its line of succession, however, then the line of succession will remain the same in Britain as in the other Commonwealth nations -- and the monarch of Canada will hold this position by virtue of being the monarch of the British Commonwealth (which, in turn, he/she holds by virtue of being the leader of the historical British royal line).
As for the Commonwealth Realms, the Sovereign is chosen by each individual state's constitutional law, only the Statute of Westminster sets out the convention that they should all agree on who it should be to maintain a unified Crown. This logic seems awfully close to "Any successor you like, as long as it's Charles". CJCurrie 21:30, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
It is therefore simply a stated intent that consent of the realms be obtained. If that is inconvenient, it can simply be disregarded. (Which is basically what I've been saying all along). Homey 08:35, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Again, the "British Commonwealth" is now the Commonwealth of Nations, and the head of that organization has nothing to do with the constitutional monarchy of the 16 Commonwealth Realms. The Sovereign of Canada can be whomever Canada decides, however Canada has agreed through the Statute of Westminster to have the same sovereign not only as the UK, but as all the other Commonwealth Realms. This is why the Ontario Justice Rouleau refers to the relationship between the Commonwealth Realms as one of "symmetry." -- gbambino 16:43, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
That would be because the broad cultural perception in Canada (and elsewhere) is that the Crown is British.
But it's not just cultural - it remains the "British Crown" legally and, of course, historically. Homey 17:05, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
The Crown is "historically" British? Yes, as much as the Indian government is "historically" British. As for it being legally British, you've tried this argument elsewhere and it has been exposed as hollow. -- gbambino 18:51, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Gbambino is again showing his POV by removing factual information that he doesn't like or thinks reflects badly on the monarchist position. Several times he has softened references to the fact that only Canada and Grenada retain royal titles for the Queen that list the UK prior to themselves. He softens this by changing the reference to merely retaining the UK in their royal titles. Given that it is a fact that these two countries also list the UK prior to themselves there is no justifiable reason for Gbambino's edit aside from his political agenda. If he does not stop this behaviour I will ask for this article to be protected again and will open an RFC on Gbambino. Homey 20:59, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Go ahead, ask for the article to be protected and request an RFC. As there are clear and logical reasons for my edits (read below) I am not frightened by your hollow threats. However, if you're going to have a temper tantrum over the fact that some people wont stand idly by while you try to use Wikipedia as a means through which you can make the Monarchy in Canada seem as foreign as possible, I suspect the moderators would rather you did it in a corner at home rather than waste their time with it here. -- gbambino 21:33, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
The fact that the original 1953 Royal Styles and Titles Act passed in each Realm listed the Queen's position as Queen of the United Kingdom prior to her position as Queen of (relevant Realm) is already established in the sentence: "When a new Royal Style and Titles Act was passed at the beginning of Queen Elizabeth's reign, it explicitly identified the Queen's role in the United Kingdom and her role in Canada separately, with her role as Queen of the United Kingdom listed before her role as Queen of Canada."
It is then explained that only the UK, Canada and Grenada currently retain the 1953 Act: "Although most other Commonwealth Realms have since removed any explicit reference to the United Kingdom in their versions of Elizabeth II's title, Canada retains its original 1953 Act. As of 2005, other than the United Kingdom, Grenada is the only other Realm to do the same."
Thus, if it is already clear that the 1953 Act lists the Queen's role as Queen of the UK prior to her role as Queen of Canada or Grenada, and it is made clear that only Canada and Grenada retain the 1953 Act, then it naturally follows that Canada and Grenada are the only two to list Queen of the UK prior to Queen of Canada or Grenada. To state they remain the only two to list Queen of the UK prior to Queen of Canada or Grenada is both repetitious and a statement of the obvious. -- gbambino 21:23, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
I've rewritten the section in order to make it more succinct (thus addressing your stated concern) while also making it less oblique (which was my concern with your wording.
Homey
21:34, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Since the article is now protected please indicate here if my working is acceptable. If not suggest another wording, here on the talk page. Homey 21:36, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Nope, what you've done is fine by me. It achieves the same effect as I thought my edits did, perhaps better. -- gbambino 21:43, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Ok, thanks. Homey 21:57, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Not sure if this issue has already been raised but here goes...
The article states: A list of monarchs of New France, British North America and Canada:
I don't feel that this list is quite complete as there are several parts of Canada which were under British posession prior to 1763 (the earliest date given in the list for British monarchs). The date 1534 is given for the beginning of French rule, presumably dated to Cartier's claim, however Cabot's claim (on Newfoundland) is 1497. Also, Nova Scotia came under Scottish rule from 1621-1632(?), and more specifically, peninsular Nova Scotia came under permanent British rule beginning in 1713. Therefore I would say that English monarchs from 1497-1707 (date of the Act of Union) are needed, British monarchs 1707-present, as well as Scottish monarchs from 1621-1632(?), however I think these were from England's House of Stewart during this period(?). Plasma east 03:25, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
The Queen's title is actually Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God Queen of Canada and Her other Realms and Territories, Head of the Commonwealth.
In 1952 it was made clear that
It is depressing when something as basic as the royal title is shown in a monumentally wrong, made-up form in an encyclopædia article.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
21:48, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Actually, you're wrong. What's more depressing is when an editor arrogantly assumes he must be correct rather than check his facts. Please see the text of the Royal Style and Titles Act passed by the Canadian parliament and still in force:
Royal Style and Titles Act
CHAPTER R-12
An Act respecting the Royal Style and Titles
Preamble
WHEREAS the Prime Ministers and other representatives of Commonwealth countries assembled in London in the month of December, in the year one thousand nine hundred and fifty-two, considered the form of the Royal Style and Titles, and recognizing that the present form is not in accordance with present constitutional relations within the Commonwealth, concluded that, in the present stage of development of the Commonwealth relationship, it would be in accord with the established constitutional position that each member country should use for its own purposes a form suitable to its own particular circumstances but retaining a substantial element common to all;
AND WHEREAS the said representatives of all the Commonwealth countries concerned agreed to take such action as is necessary in each country to secure the appropriate constitutional approval for the changes now envisaged;
AND WHEREAS, in order to give effect to the aforesaid conclusions, it is desirable that the Parliament of Canada should assent to the issue of a Royal Proclamation establishing the Royal Style and Titles for Canada:
THEREFORE, Her Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate and House of Commons of Canada, enacts as follows:
Short title
1. This Act may be cited as the Royal Style and Titles Act.
Assent to Royal Style and Titles
2. The assent of the Parliament of Canada is hereby given to the issue by Her Majesty of Her Royal Proclamation under the Great Seal of Canada establishing for Canada the following Royal Style and Titles, namely:
Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.
R.S., c. R-12, s. 1.
Homey 21:59, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Actually, Australia's change in wording was during the ministry of Gough Whitlam in the 1970s. Canada's wording has never been changed. Grenada's title for the Queen also mentions the UK.
Homey
22:08, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
"As the royal website makes clear, "Defender of the Faith" is only used in the UK."
Actually, the royal website says "The words 'Defender of the Faith' are also included in the styles and titles used by The Queen in Canada and New Zealand." [4] Homey 22:21, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
The title referred to in the article (Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith) is the correct title, and Homey's examples are accurate. However, it is the first time a monarch has been titled as Queen of Canada. The wording of the title is a list of three separate ones: Queen of the UK, Queen of Canada, and Queen of her other Realms and territories. The Canadian Heritage website specifically refers to this: "Following the untimely death of her father King George VI on February 6, 1952, The Princess Elizabeth acceded to the Throne as Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II and was separately proclaimed Queen of Canada." 1 As well at CBC: 2 And the Bank of Canada: 3 -- gbambino 22:46, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Literally speaking, there is no such title as "Queen of Canada" however, the title for Elizabeth II does mean she is Canada's Queen. Anway, I think my edit referring to the mention of Canada is more correct but I concede it is a hair-splitting semantic argument. Homey 22:56, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Try reading the title you put in from the 1950s. It says unambiguously that she is Queen of Canada.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
22:58, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Hilarious! You wade in with yet another arrogantly dismissive post while completely evading the fact that you were absolutely wrong on the Queen's title in Canada, or that you were wrong in your assertions on "Defender of the Faith" or references to the UK elsewhere. Fear ÉIREANN, before you weigh in on this question don't you think you should first admit that you were wrong before and that moreoever, you compounded your error with your arrogant and pompous dismissal of what was actually a factual statement? Homey 23:02, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Try reading the title.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
23:03, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Are you capable of even a modicum of humility? Aren't you the least bit embarrassed about having said "It is depressing when something as basic as the royal title is shown in a monumentally wrong, made-up form in an encyclopædia article," when the title was actually correct until you changed it? Homey 23:04, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I had a wrong link to a draft bill that was not introduced. You however have been claiming for ages that there is no such title as "Queen of Canada". Explain then why the Act you quote explicitly creates it? It is rather strange that you continue to insist something that your own edit disproves.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
23:09, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I'd say it's not really hair splitting, and the first time there's been a separately titled Queen of Canada is important, both symbolically and legally. If we edit out the parts of the list that don't matter to this discussion, we're left with: Elizabeth the Second of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen. We can read this like we would any list, seeing three separate entities: United Kingdom, Canada, and other Realms and territories. So her one Canadian title calls her Queen of the UK, Queen of Canada, and Queen of her other Realms and territories. Can Heritage, the Bank of Canada, and the CBC (all govt. organizations) recognise and acknowledge this fact. --
gbambino
23:10, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I believe that when Her Majesty visits the United States, she is usually doing so as Queen of Canada rather than Queen of the United Kingdom. I'm thinking of when she opened the St. Lawrence Seaway jointly with President Dwight Eisenhower. Also, I seem to remember seeing pictures of her at the funeral procession for President John F. Kennedy accompanied by the Canadian Red Ensign (then Canada's flag) rather than the Royal Union Flag/ Union Jack. However, on their 2005 visit to the United States, the Prince of Wales and Duchess of Cornwall did not explicitly represent Canada. I remember seeing them meeting with President George W. Bush accompanied by the Union Jack rather than the Canadian Flag.-- MarshallStack 22:48, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
Do we have any evidence for the claims being made in regards to military unification? Homey 00:09, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
The question is was there a deliberate effort to downplay the crown or was this a side-effect? Is there anything in Cabinet minutes, political memoirs etc that indicates a deliberate republican policy as was implied in the edit? Homey 14:33, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
It's clear that a French line and a British line of monarchs ruled over different parts of Canada over the centuries. But when it comes to Elizabeth II we have to deal with the fact that the laws making her sovereign of Canada, the laws of succession outlining who inherits the Canadian throne, the laws titling her Queen of Canada, etc., are now all Canadian law, not British. That means a separate line of succession in Canada, even if it happens to be symmetrical to the UK's. (That each Realm now holds control over succession to its Crown was demonstrated in 1936 when all the Realms passed legislation allowing for George VI to accede to the throne except for Ireland who didn't pass their legislation until a day later - meaning that for one day Edward VIII remained King of Ireland while George VI became king of all the other countries.) So to say that the line of British monarchs still reigns over Canada is incorrect. -- gbambino 23:11, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I really don't want to get into the semantics of this again, but perhaps "Commonwealth line" would solve the problem. CJCurrie 23:15, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Not this topic specifically, but you'll probably remember that the question of a distinct "Canadian monarchy" has been raised before. I'm not going to repeat what I wrote at that time, but my objections remain applicable to this debate. CJCurrie 23:41, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
(i) My objections were factual, (ii) the "line" refers to more than simply the mechanism of succession.
What then do you call that line?
That would appear to be the question, wouldn't it? CJCurrie 23:57, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
a) is there any consensus among Canadian constitutional scholars that there is now a "Canadian" line in the monarchy. b) are there even any citable sources that make such a claim.
This seems to be a personal opinion extrapolated from the change in the royal title. I am unaware of any constitutional experts who claim that the change in the Royal Styles and Titles Act has created a new royal lineage (which is what "line" means) - let alone a consensus. In the absence of any citable sources (not original research but an actual source saying there is now a "Canadian line") the claim is POV and original research and does not belong here. Homey 00:03, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Could we add an asterix after Elizabeth within the "British line", and note the changed mechanism of succession in a footnote? CJCurrie 00:10, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I've tried a solution with "Shared line between Britain and Canada." Of course, the line is shared symmetrically with fifteen other countries, but "Shared line between Canada and other Commonwealth Realms" just seems too damn long. -- gbambino 00:41, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I suggest moving this section as well as the polls into it's own linked section. The Monarchy in Canada page should focus on the institution itself, it's history and it's present nature , while the debate page can focus on the debate itself between stakeholders. There seems to be enough info in the debate section to merit its own seperate entry. WJRB 15:05, March 9th 2006
I deleted the statistic on the cost of the crown per Canadian with the explanation that this was POV; after all, we don't include this sort of statistic for other government expenditures. Gbambino reverted this edit without the courtesy of an explanation. My argument still stands. I realize that the statistic is factual, but I would also point out that in other articles we do not divide expenditures by the number of Canadians. What reason is there to do so, other than to make the point that the monarchy costs little, which is a POV judgement. What do others think? HistoryBA 21:13, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I explained where the number came from, hence it is not my POV, but sourced information. If you read the report linked in the article 1, I'm sure you'll see that page one states the population number comes from Statistics Canada's Demographic Statistics from October 2004, and the total expenditure on the Crown is calculated in detail through the following 11 pages. As the conclusion of the report states, the overall cost was approximately $49,000,000, or $1.53 per person. The UK government has also broken down the head of state expenditures in a similar fashion: 2 -- gbambino 21:51, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
If it is accurate, if it it relevant and if it is factual then it goes in. That is the rule on content. The content is accurate, relevant and factual. Therefore it belongs in the article.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
00:31, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Though the information is accurate and factual, the Monarchy in Canada article has been a bit of a spring board for various points of view on the monarchy rather than delivering facts in context. If the Cost of the Crown is to be incorporated into the article it should be done in a historical context(compared to past costs), in context of privilages the monarch enjoys, or in context of the such events prompted the enquirey(if the monarchy debate is the context that prompted the enquirey it should be in another article on that debate), it should not be its own section. -- WJRB 11:48, 21 March 2006
The Good article nomination for Monarchy of Canada/Archive 2 has failed for the following reason:
I added some information regarding the Norse settlement at L'Anse aux Meadows, and it being the first North American colony settled by subjects of a non-indigenous king: Olaf I of Norway. As the kings of France who established other colonies in present day Canada are listed as Monarchs of Canada, would Olaf I count as well? The Norse colony only lasted three years, but would it technically still count? -- gbambino 17:07, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
It strikes me that this article is far too long. Am I the only one who thinks so? HistoryBA 18:59, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I disagree I found it by mistake but found myself reading it all and I learnt lots about the monarchy in Canada that I did not know before. Please dont reduce it, this info is not really available anywhere else that I have seen.
Gbambino, who rules this page with an iron fist, wants the list of "monarchs of Canada" to include every King of England and France who have existed while any part of what later became "Canada" was colonized. If one is to make a list of "Monarchs of Canada" and not simply "Monarchs who have presided over the colonization of North America" it seems to me that the list must begin in 1867, when Canada became a country. There was no "Canada" in the 1500's, so it seems rather spurious to identify someone as being "monarch of Canada" for that time period. J.J. 21:55, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
As it clearly says, the list is "A list of monarchs of New France, British North America and Canada" (and, no, Iron Fist himself did not write that). The first one in the list, Francis I, established French colonies in Acadia and Canada (again, not written by yours truly). So, unless you want to deny the existence of the colonies and territories known as Canada ( "The vast territories that were to be known as Acadia and Canada were..."), The Canadas, and the Province of Canada, I trust you'll reinstate the chart as it existed previously. If you really object to this, you'll have to push for the renaming of Canada under British Imperial Control (1764-1867), and a heavy editing of History of Canada, French Canadian, United Empire Loyalists, Province of Quebec (1763-1791), British North America, Quebec Act, Post-Confederation Canada (1867-1914), and so on, all of which often speak of "Canada" as existing in some form or another prior to 1867. -- gbambino 22:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Legally though there was no Canada until 1867, and as such no Monarch of what is today recognized as Canada. Sure Canada existed in other forms before, but by that same token you could create a "Kings of the United States" page and throw George the Third on and such. It's technically true that there have been King's of what later became the United States of America, but it wouldn't really make any sense. If JJ really wanted to get bitchy he could just delete everything up until when Lizzie became Queen, since she's the first legal Queen of Canada if I recall correctly. Regardless, JJ's in the right here (as usual). -- 24.68.182.5 09:20, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
You have a rather odd tendency to defer to authority rather than facts. The facts are quite clear: There was no "Canada" proper until 1867. Ergo there was no "Monarch" of Canada, King of Canada, Duke of Canada, Prime Minister of Canada, President of Canada, or anything else "of Canada" until Canada proper existed. Since you bring it up, I'm frankly not a fan of other historical writings that claim "Canada" existed prior to 1867 either, for example, those who claim that "Canada" fought the US in the 1812 War. It's revisionist history. There was Upper / Lowe Canada, and the United Province of Canada, but frankly I resent the implication that the history of those places is the history "of Canada" since they represented only a portion of what the country is today.
I have no problem with a list of "Monarchs of Canada," but if that title is to be used it seems revisionist to list a bunch of French and English monarchs who had nothing to do with the state of Canada as it exists today. The other guy makes a good point, one could just as easily make lengthy lists of "Monarchs of the United States" or "Monarchs of Ghana" etc with similar logic. But no one would consider such lists meaningful or factually accurate. J.J. 23:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
For a table of Canadian Heads of State, Henry VII and Francis I would certainly be out of place, but the table is simply describing Monarchs who have ruled over the territory which is now Canada. The creation of the Dominion of Canada was not a radical break in constitutional continuity the way the Rebellion in what is now the United States was. Canada's history has been largely characterized by gradual change. Francis I was king over the territory of Canada in one sense, Henry IV would have a much stronger claim as sovereign over Canada (there are statues of him to this day), and Elizabeth II was the only one to actually be crowned as Queen of Canada. Most English Canadians think of Canada as existing, in one evolving form or another, from the colonizing by the Loyalist diaspora. Then French Canadians laugh because actually half of Canada's history had already happened by then. Peter Grey 03:23, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
What's the point in reversing the order of the groups? It's sat the way it is for ages - the Monarchist League is older and larger than Citizens for a Republic, therefore it was put first. Is there some Wikipedia policy that I don't know of which states that organizations must be listed in alphabetical order? Or, is this an attempt at self promotion? -- gbambino 23:27, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I've removed this organization from the examples given of Royal Patronage. I can't find any reference to patronage on their website and am assuming that this is vandalism. If not, the fact that they make no mention of patronage suggests that they don't consider it all that important and therefore perhaps is not the best of examples. Kscheffler 06:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Below is a list of Canadian style guides. In situations in which there is a difference between US & British spelling, none recommend -ise, several recommend -ize, some that do not recommend -ize use -ize (as in capitalize, authorize, organize) -- JimWae 20:51, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
"Defender of the Faith"? Please, what nonsense. I think the governor-general dropped that title the last time I looked at the Web site. Some empirical aspects of the monarchy would be useful; and much less of the anachronistic nonsense.-- Lance6968 07:04, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
-- Ggbroad 17:46, 6 January 2007 (UTC)==(Note: here "British Crown" is the traditional reference to the Crown shared amongst the Realms, not the Crown in Right of the UK.)==
I have removed the above statement because it contradicts the actual quote. TharkunColl 23:19, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I have also removed this clause, because it is patently untrue, "which gives Canada an almost identical system of government as the UK and other Commonwealth Realms" TharkunColl 23:25, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I have also removed this as unsourced, "The Monarchy thus ceased to be an exclusively British institution, although it has often been called "British" since this time (in both legal and common language) for reasons historical, legal, and of convenience." TharkunColl 23:29, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I have removed this because it was never anything more than a proposal that was rejected, "(originally intended to be named the Kingdom of Canada)" TharkunColl 23:47, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
This whole article is full of tendentious wishful thinking. It needs a great deal of pruning. TharkunColl 23:52, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I realize that this is a quotation: "The Canadian Crown continues as a key element of our parliamentary democracy and an enduring symbol that represents all generations of Canadians and the best that is our country" and in one place it is cited as such. In another, it is not, and hence constitutes the clearest possible example of pov and the use of weasel words. Well, the end of it "represents...the best that is our country" certainly is. -- Ggbroad 17:46, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
This talk page is filled with objections to the POV of this article. Jonawiki 18:06, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I randomly backtracked the closest footnote for a random assortment of statements in the article. The footnotes did NOT mention any of the following statements. And this was a cursory random sample. This is a joke.
Please provide the source for the following facts and assertions:
Of course, every time I place a fact or unreference tag, G2bambino just reverts it and then provides no explanation. Jonawiki 21:18, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
This is a dispute about whether this article has appropriate length, neutrality and attribution. 18:20, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
This article should be unlocked to include some information about the controversy regarding the —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ve2jgs ( talk • contribs) 00:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC).
So Canada DOES have a queen then? And she is considered the queen of Canada? Please answer, my 'friend' and I are having a rather heated argument. I think she's going to hurt me. Bobafett424242 18:30, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |