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Looking for participants in the the discussion of List of religions once classed as cults cairoi 14:24, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't know quite what to do with Dianic Wicca. I'm fairly certain it is wrong to even use the term Wicca to refer to Dianics, since the important factor in Wicca is gender polarity which doesn't apply even remotely to Dianic practice. But I'm not Dianic myself and don't know much about the details of their practice. It would be great if someone who knows more would clarify this. Perhaps it should be Dianic Paganism, or Dianic Tradition. -- Dmerrill
Most Dianic Wiccan's consider themselves Wiccan and do consider the birth of Wicca with Gardner the beginings of their religion; they are just a group that broke off (kind of like protestants from the Catholic church- the protestants are still Christian). Though I am not very familar with the Reclaimation Tradition (which apparently does not consider it's self to be part of Wicca), it sounds very much like Dianic Wicca and could be composed of women with very similar beliefs and practices who allie themselves more on the "political side" and less on the "Wicca side" than Dianic Wiccans. I guess I'm saying that if Dianic Wiccan's consider themselves Wiccan, who are we to say they are not. Just a thought, I may be wrong.
There are two kinds of Dianics, and I was initiated as one kind which I note first. The Dianic Craft which is women only was founded by Zsuszanna Budapest from the early 70s as a blend of Hungarian folk magic and Western feminism. This kind of Dianic cannot be Wiccan for Wiccans insist on polarity of Goddess and God (as Dmerrill says above): some Wiccan material and phrases do form part of Dianic practice however. But such Dianics do not see Wicca as their main lineage, looking instead to local folk traditions, feminist foremothers of the early 20th and late 19thC etc In particular the matriarchy tradition of Gage, Bachofen, Engels, Neumann, Murray, Gould Davis, Sjoo and Gimbutas figures largely.
Starhawk was/is the most famous of Zee's students, ref her The Spiral Dance 1979, but her Craft is not restricted to women. Her worldwide network centres on Reclaiming Coven/ Reclaiming Tradition in California. I belong to a very similar tradition in the UK.
Dianic Wicca, also known confusingly as Dianic Craft, is a variant of Wicca that centrally honours Diana, Queen of the Witches. Both women and men, Goddess & God polarity. Otherwise Wicca.
It can also help to distinguish the American usage of 'Wicca' from the British. In the USA, Wicca is a loose label, broadly similar to Paganism. In Britain Paganism is the loose term, and the Craft/ witchcraft is only one of many kinds of Paganism. Other forms are Druidry, Heathenism (Asatru/ Nordics), Eco-Paganism, Shamanism, Goddess people, High Magic, Chaos Magic, Techno-Paganism etc .....Within the Craft itself Wicca is strictly only one form, though a very important one, arguably dominant?, founded by Gardner and Valiente, and with Alexandrian Craft following on. There are other forms of Craft, not seen as offshoots, such as Starhawk's, my own Circlework, Dianics, Celtics, and the claimed Hereditaries.
Parhaps some clearification regarding Neo-Pagan, Paleo-Pagan and Meso-Pagan is an idea. Are there other types of Pagan religions?
SHould it be noted that asatruers prefer to be called heathens rater than pagans? Also the difference between the Wicca based and the other? // Liftarn 15:20 Dec 13, 2002 (UTC)
Between the section on Druidry and the mention of other Celtic
trads, there needs to be something about Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism
(CRP). This is an emerging complex of trads that are not specifically Druid,
but are based on increasingly sound scholarship and don't fit the rather
dismissive description of "Celtic Twilight" practices. I don't know enough
about it to write it, but I may be able to seduce someone who does. Feel
free to beat me to it!
Freeman 17:30 Jan 22, 2003 (UTC)
The following is copied by Laurel Bush 16:43, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC) from Talk:Paganism:
The above was copied by Laurel Bush 16:43, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC) from Talk:Paganism.
Perhaps Paganism needs a move to Proto paganism as the name of an artlicle which should include references to now emergent self-conscious (self-styled) paganism. Laurel Bush 16:56, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC).
No plans to actually do anything at present. Just making observations. Laurel Bush 10:50, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC).
No plans to actually do anything at present. Just making observations. Laurel Bush 10:50, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC).
Anyone who is involved in the Neo-Pagan community knows very well that there is a difference between paganism, Paganism, and Neo-Paganism or Neopaganism. Neo-Paganism generally refers to modern Paganism as it is practiced today or more specifically, the Neo-Pagan movement. Mirlin 21:23, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I want to delete this, because I don't believe it is true. What do you think? -- till we *) 21:20, Jul 30, 2003 (UTC)
I believe this article may need expansion to include near-eastern Neopaganisms such as the secret societies, kemeticism, hindi, etc. Although these are certainly "Western" in that they are predominantly reconstructive and recreated, they don't (I think) "claim to be a revival of mainly European Paganism." I may be very far off, but I seem to recall the two "sources" of the neopaganism movement were one predominantly reconstructive Celtic, and the other predominately recreative Egyptian. - Amgine 23:03, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I wondered if anyone with the relevant knowledge would be able to mention a bit about 'neopaganism' in South America. Adambisset 23:07, 30 July 2005 (UTC) :)
The earliest variety of Neopaganism, Neo-Druidry, was heavily inspired by Masonry and other "secret societies" around at the time. To call it "Neopaganism" is probably a bit of a misnomer, as the first few groups were mainly Christian, adapting pseudo-Masonic ritual to what they percieved as a more "Celtic" (rather than Mediterranean) flavor.
The Western mind has been for many ages shaped by Mediterranean culture, whether Egyptian, Greek, or Roman. Up until about the time of Gerald Gardner, most occult traditions were deeply intrenched in Mediterranean philosophies, and Greco-Roman Paganism had an substantial impact on the every-day Westerner's perception of polytheism. Gardner tried introducing some Norse and Celtic flavor into his watered-down form of occultism, which likely inspired other reconstructionists to delve deeper into history in search of greater authenticity. And of course the continuing Mediterranean influence (through such sources as Thelema and Masonry) in the realm of the occult drew more people to the Greco-Roman, Egyptian/Kemetic, and Sumerian reconstructions.
Then there was the "New Age" phenomenon, which introduced elements of Eastern Paganism and Post-Modernism into the Neopagan traditions; endless reincarnation, the abandonment of the belief in destiny for the more modern belief in "you can be anything you wanna be" (hence the idea that it's okay for anyone to play around with magick), the loss of a distinction between black magick and white magick, the belief in a strictly positive afterlife and disavowal of any form of evil deity or eternal punishment, and many other vast departures from traditional Western Paganism, all became standard.
In truth, it's not just the lack of attention to non-European Neopaganisms that's a problem here, it's also the lack of attention to the non-European influence on European traditions that needs fixing. -- Corvun 04:45, August 1, 2005 (UTC)
This article is being co-opted by a self-declared "stoner activist" who is reverting quite sensible material that sets Neopaganism in the context of the history of ideas and replaces it with material such as " Neopaganism is perhaps most closely related to Syncreto-Pagan religions such as Voodoo and Stregheria." Is this how neopaganism is to be characterized at Wikipedia. Not up to Wikipedia standards really. -- Wetman 06:02, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Did somebody delete my references to Christo-Paganism and Solitary Neopaganism, or was it a wiki-error? -- Whiteash 15:56, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry if I made a mistake. I've been having trouble loading the edit page. I'll fix it. -- Whiteash 15:36, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)
I would like an explination as to the removal to the link to the article on Oh My Gods! - which is a Pagan comic strip dealing directly with NeoPaganism. The commentary left by User:Wetman merely stated (rRv User:Shivian's self-advertisement for his comic strip) - however I don't understand why a article that is about a comic strip which directly deals with neopaganism was removed. The comic strip referenced in said article directly references the History of Neopaganism, Mythological and religious sources, Earth-based religions, Witchcraft, Number of adherents, Concepts of Divinity, Festivals, Traditions, Wicca, Heathenism, Celtic-based, Modern, Terms for kinds of Neopagan worship Usage of the term 'Neopagan' in different quarters, Neo-pagan as used in literary criticism. I don't see why a reference which was properly sub-categoriesed in the "see also" section was removed as "self advertisement" - when it is obviousally based on a article which does little advertising and much more historical referencing of the comic strip, it's history, and it's current place. -- Shivian Balaris 05:29, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
This is just to inform people that I want Wikipedia to accept a general policy that BC and AD represent a Christian Point of View and should be used only when they are appropriate, that is, in the context of expressing or providing an account of a Christian point of view. In other contexts, I argue that they violate our NPOV policy and we should use BCE and CE instead. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/BCE-CE Debate for the detailed proposal. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:55, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
Are we attempting to define "neopaganism" as any modern form of paganism (as the Paganism article seems to), or as a set of reconstructionist/revivalist traditions ("a heterogeneous group of religions which attempt to revive ancient ... religions")? Because the one seems to contradict the other (breaking Wiki's self-consistency policy). By the apparent Paganism definition, basically any religion or set of spiritual beliefs which exists outside a monotheistic framework is paganism, and "neopaganism" merely refers to modern spiritualities as opposed to earlier ones. Without any kind of modifier (such as "many," "commonly" or "often") "attempt to revive ancient ... religions" line seems to be too restrictive to properly agree with the Paganism definition.
The most simple way to fix this seems to be the addition of a modifier, so I did, but I'd like feedback.
Sorry I forgot to add a edit summary.-- 12.5.1.207 23:15, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm curious as to why there is no notice of the similarities between all neo-pagan religions and the organisation from which each cult span off initially, Freemasonry. It amazes me that practitioners of neo-pagan religions haven't investigated the organisation that has for the last thousand years that we know of (historically) been refered to as 'The Craft', a name that has even been stolen, not to mention thousands of rites, et cetera. Why isn't there any mention of this in this article?
Almost every neo-pagan 'rite', regardless of where it's origin is oft cited to have originated, can be found in any rite and dogma book from any masonic lodge. 211.31.9.5 04:18, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
I am trying to balance out this article, removing material relevant only to particular Neopagan groups. This article should only describe the Neopagan movement as a whole, and give a list of individual traditions; all details, such as Wiccan festivals etc., must go o the subarticles. At the moment, the article is seriously Wicca-centric; since we do have a Wicca article, this is unnecessary, Wicca can be discussed in all detail over there. dab (ᛏ) 14:22, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
well, "psychologistic" is just the adjective to "psychologism", regardless of the meaning of the term. I do think "psychologism" is used correctly here, although there is a specialized meaning in arithmetics, see here, and check general use. dab (ᛏ) 06:54, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, my connection went flaky on me yesterday before I could post to the discussion page. I found the link to the (currently non-existent) Psychologism article from this page while preparing to write an article for it. The other references in Wikipedia deal with the position in philosophy of mathematics, and so I decided that it would be less confusing if the link from this page didn't go to an article that had nothing to do with the intended use here. It's not that there is a specialized meaning in philosophy of mathematics, it's that the philosophy of mathematics meaning is the standard meaning. That's what Mill, Frege, Husserl, et al. were talking about when they wrote about psychologism. The general use google search you mention backs this up (indeed, those articles were someplace else I'd already been looking in preparing the Psychologism article). While Mill and others certainly may have intended for 'psychologism' to eventually refer to something more general, the fact is that such usage never developed (and it's probably too late to introduce it now). I edited this article so that the link would point directly to Psychologistic just in case that was a technical term from neopaganism with which I was unfamiliar, but as somebody has now created that article as a redirect to Psychologism I'm simply going to clean up the whole mess and de-link the reference in this article, rather than confuse people when they follow the link from here ("What does neopaganism have to do with philosophy of mathematics and logic?!") -- Wclark 14:44, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I linked it to Psychology instead, since that seems to capture the intended meaning in this article just fine. -- Wclark 14:48, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
I HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS, SO LISTEN TO ME...............................
It is incorrect to refer to the Dianic tradition founded by Zsusanna Budapest as being 'Wiccan', as Wicca embraces the god as well as the goddess in their worship. Strictly speaking, you should call it Dianic Witchcraft. This form of witchcraft tends to be popular with feminists and the lesbian community. Dianic Witchcraft allows only women to join their covens, and focuses on goddess worship and celebrating femininity and sisterhood. A lot of Wiccans consider this a rather imbalanced type of witchcraft, and also take issue with Dianic witches and their practise of black magick as well as white, which is against the Wiccan Rede.
As Zsusanna Budapest lives in Texas, I imagine her religious beliefs make her a target for a fair amount of criticism from Christian fundamentalist types who tend to reside in southern American states.
JONATHAN CRANE.
Slight change made to subject header. Using "or" suggested that the two words are synonomous. They aren't.
Why is there a list of kinds of religious belief in this article? Shouldn't this information be in a more general article, such as "Religion" or "Belief" or "Theology"? What is specifically Neopagan in those definitions as they are shown? I don't think there is anything so specific that justifies keeping this section in the article. -- Jdemarcos 14:38, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Pagan and neopagan are sometimes used to mean anti-religion. E.g. The Nazis were not just antisemitic but neo-pagan. I'm sure I don't have the quote exact but I heard this on the radio today on a discussion about Vatican 2. My sound card isn't working so maybe someone can go to www.kcur.org and listen to the Nov 17 Up To Date program. I always thought neopagan meant recreation of european pagan beliefs while American Indian beliefs would be just pagan. -- Gbleem 18:30, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Kristol offers a devastating critique of the liberal Protestant organizations that have been "more keenly interested in social reform than in religious belief." Lukewarm Christianity, Kristol suggests, is more attractive to Jews because they assume, incorrectly in his view, that social-minded religious people will be less likely to produce the sort of anti-Semitism "our Jewish ancestors experienced for centuries in Europe." He thinks this is a faulty assumption because vicious anti-Semitism is not Christian anti-Semitism, but neopagan (Nazi and fascist), Muslim fundamentalist, Marxist, or "simply nationalist chauvinist anti-Semitism of a kind one now finds in Japan (of all places!) or Latin America." [1] -- Gbleem 18:55, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
, Kertzer had done a brilliant job of refuting the self-exonerating claims made in the 1998 Vatican document "We Remember: A Reflection on the Shoah." The Vatican had argued that there was a sharp line separating traditional Christian anti-Judaism from Nazi racial and "neopagan" anti-Semitism. [2]-- Gbleem 18:55, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
"Neopagan/ism" is written with a capital 'N' throughout, "Pagan/ism" is sometimes written with a capital 'P', and sometimes not - is there a reason for the capitalisation? And either way, can we get some consistency in here? TheMadBaron 15:01, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
When I was working on Neopagan zines in the 80's and 90's, this is the convention we used, and which those of us from that era are still using in print and online works:
In terms of Reconstructionism, the convention we've followed has been to capitalize it when it is part of a trad name, such as Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism (CR). Lower case is used when "reconstruction" is used to describe any act of reconstructing, but not a particular religion. IMHO, the Polytheistic reconstructionism article should have Reconstructionism capitalized, though I guess it's more in a grey area as it is not a specific tradition name, as CR is. BTW, in reference to the above section, we use "CR" for both "Celtic Reconstructionism" and "Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism". Both terms are used pretty interchangeably, depending on whether the priority is brevity or the need to stress that it's a spiritual/Pagan tradition and not just an act of reconstruction. But in both cases we always use the abbreviation "CR", not "CRP". -- Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦ ♫ 21:39, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted an edit that changed a section title from simply "Wicca" to "Gardnerian Traditional Witchcraft (Wicca)". First, I do not believe that "Gardnerian Traditional Witchcraft" is in common usage; a Google search for that term turns up only about 200 hits if references to "pre-Gardnerian traditional witchcraft" are excluded. Compare this to "Wicca", which gets over three million google hits. Second, "Gardnerian Traditional Witchcraft" could be interpreted to refer only to the Gardnerian tradition of Wicca; while some people do believe that Gardnerian Wicca (or, more generally, Wicca as an initiatory mystery religion practiced in covens) is the only "real" Wicca, I don't think we should assume that in our naming of the section. Third, many people make a distinction between witchcraft (as a practice) and Wicca (as a religion), and equating Wicca with a specific variety of witchcraft begs the question against that distinction. - AdelaMae ( talk - contribs) 17:13, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
So, let me sum up a number of references for the use of the term British Traditional Wicca or BTW:
The general consensus among practioners of BTW seems to be that the descriptivist POV can't be changed, and, thus, when dealing with identifying to outsiders (if ever) the choice is to use the term British Traditional Wicca or BTW. -- Vidkun 15:05, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Removed the following from the description of pantheism: "This is a combination of animism and henotheism." This requires a source if it is to be kept, or should be at least modified to reflect that it is conjecture on the part of the writer. I think, however, that it will not survive scrutiny. It reminds me of the popular neo-pagan habit of conflating pantheism with polytheism. Pantheism need entail no other objects of reverence beside the unity of everything existing (so it is not henotheism), and it doesn't assert the existence of spirits indwelling each physical entity or phenomenon (so it is not animism). See Michael Levine, who has established himself as the contemporary philosophical authority on the subject with his exhaustive treatise Pantheism: A Non-Theistic Concept of Deity. The rest of the description is crude but functional. Vorpal Suds 05:32, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
I still think dab has a point, but the very nature of this subject might make it indeed impossible to ever catagorize satisfactorily. I just find things like "Wicca in particular emphasizes the role of witchcraft and ritual" in the Worship and Ritual section less than desirable, if not redundant. Also, for possible further reading, I'm not pushing this on anyone (and certainly not as 'the' book), but I think using Margot Adler's Drawing Down the Moon as at least a partial reference would compliment the current references. We all use what we got, not in any way passing judgement - been there myself - but the books cited are a little too niche-specific (though great as supplementary material I'm sure). And on a final note, do Discordianism, Church of the SubGenius, et al. not merit any mention here? Although; I hate to throw anything else in here to add to what could become, in theory, an endless list of over-specific Neopagan beliefs & practices. Khirad talk 13:13, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
(cross-posted on Talk:Paganism) - I am placing the {{limitedgeographicscope}} template on both this article and Paganism, and here is why. I've been re-tagging some articles from Category:Religion stubs as paganism stubs and also placing the WikiProject Neopaganism template on appropriate article talk pages, and I've had some difficulty determining whether to do this with some articles, especially the numerous articles related to syncretic African religions. I went to the Wikipedia articles on paganism and neopaganism for guidance as to the scope of these terms, and found very little. In particular, I have noticed that all of the religions on the "list of pagan religions" in Paganism and all of the traditions listed in Neopaganism are explicitly European. Neopaganism comments that "Polytheistic or animistic traditions that survived into modern times relatively untouched by Christianity and Islam, like Shinto or Hinduism are not considered pagan nor neopagan," but no explanation is given for why non-European, pre-Christian, polytheistic religions that haven't survived (or their revivals) are not included on these lists. I think that this is an important issue that merits serious discussion and deliberation. So... Are paganism and neopaganism strictly European phenomena? Are these terms used to refer to non-European religions? And should religions like Voodoo and Candomblé, both of which have been called "pagan" according to their articles, be included here? - AdelaMa e ( talk - contribs) 06:29, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Considering that the length of this entry is already very long, how should we deal with references to the specific recon groups who already have their own entries? Much of what is currently in the article discussing them is redundant. WeniWidiWiki 19:09, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Sounds good to me! WeniWidiWiki 07:02, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
A discussion of usage and capitalization/hyphenation conventions for the terms N/neo(-)P/pagan and P/pagan is ongoing on the WikiProject talk page. Contributors to this article will likely be interested in participating. - AdelaMa e ( talk - contribs) 21:12, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
"Here, the Orishas of the West African Yoruba people lived on behind the masks of Catholic saints. Yemaya, Goddess of the Sea, Terrible Mother, became the Virgin Mary. Chango, a fierce God who loves tribute made of iron and steel, became Santa Barbara, to whom Spanish soldiers also prayed in times of war. And so on." Does anyone have a source or traditional teaching about Yemaya as "Terrible Mother" and Chango (Kabio Sile) "loving tributes made of iron and steel"? I don't recall hearing the former, and the latter, while plausible, sounds more like Ogun. I realize there's a great deal of variation from house to house and branch to branch, but I'd like to know the original source on this, just to make sure. Kathryn NicDhàna 20:48, 17 March 2006 (UTC) (aleyo, but with a bit of background in Lucumi and other Afro-Carribean trads)
The summary here previous to my recent edit largely consisted of theories about Gardner's inspirations and a lengthy discussion of the differences and friction between Trad and Eclectic Craft. I swapped that out with a summary of the WP:LEAD of Wicca. Ideally our brief summary at this article should not be a content fork of our main article. The "traditions" we are listing stike me as needing review. Jkelly 21:23, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm really not sure these belong in this article. These topics certainly deserve to be on Wikipedia, but I'm thinking an article on NeoPaganism doesn't really need a section on Monotheism. I think this entire section could either be eliminated, or reduced to a paragraph or two that discusses which of these theologies are relevant to NeoPaganism and then links to pages on the theologies themselves. Kathryn NicDhàna 21:58, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I Agree with Kathryn NicDhàna. While I can understand the intent, perhaps the concepts should just be listed under See also - or not at all. WeniWidiWiki 22:20, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I have renamed the section Complementary and Contrasting Theological Concepts, moved it to the end, and reduced it to a list of links to other Wikipedia pages. I still think the article would do fine to have the section deleted entirely, as if these links are truly relevant to the article they should already be linked within the main text. Kathryn NicDhàna 22:19, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be a large amount of vegetarians within the neopagan community and I would like to request some help adding neopaganism to Vegetarianism and religion. If anyone here is interested in helping please let me know. Thanks - Solar 09:43, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I considered necessaryly to add it.
Whereas the term "Neopaganism" may be popular in the USA, it is almost never used by practitioners in the UK - where the movement began - who use the term "Paganism". TharkunColl 15:55, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I apologise if I've trodden on anyone's toes with my recent edits, re citation, verifiability etc. In particular, I'd love to find a reference for
as Hutton is an excellent and reliable commentator. I've no personal doubt as to its veracity, but I've not been able to find it in his published work. Anyone step to the plate?
First sentence of the second paragraph in History section: "These trends of pagan revival reached Germany in the late 19th century Völkisch movement, which was to become one of the main roots of 20th century Neopaganism."
Thoughts on this, anyone? I don't agree, but would like to hear what others think. -- Kathryn NicDhàna 22:24, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
We can't use Hutton as a reference for most of this discussion of Murray, because Hutton doesn't actually say much of this. Where does Hutton say that Murray's primary mistake was relying too much on the similarity of confessions? Where does Hutton claim that covens based on Murray existed before Gardner? Jkelly 21:33, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
In the UK, these groups just call themselves Pagan. Please address this somehow in the article. TharkunColl 23:21, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
A lot of the same ground is covered on both pages.
I'm not against there being two pages, this one for modern interpretations of paganism (such as wicca), and paganism for a presentation of historical sources related to pre-christian beliefs, but at the moment those two different (though related) subjects are dealt with in both pages.
But I'm no expert, so whaddaya think? -- User24 19:28, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
The Witches Voice is the largest and best known Pagan networking site in the US, and possibly the world, and is deserving of inclusion in the External Links section. -- Bill W. Smith, Jr. 17:36, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
The 4th and 5th paragraphs conflicted in whether Neopaganism's roots were in the 18th or 19th centuries. I changed the 4th paragraph to 19th, but have no real surety that I was right... -- Bill W. Smith, Jr. 12:26, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
from Syncretic and Eclectic
Eclectic pagans make up a good portion of the Open Source Spirituality movement. Rather then viewing culture and tradition as static, some eclectic pagans frame their experience in the belief that human culture is constantly evolving, with elements of some cultures merging with others in a process of hybridity (Appiah, 2006).
Was that intended as a reference? Was it a ref to Kwame Anthony Appiah? -- Bill W. Smith, Jr. 03:35, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
OrionK 16:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Why is this here? This is all rather obvious. :bloodofox: 20:46, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the recently-added map of "nodes of Neopaganism". While I appreciate the effort that went into making the graphic, there are a number of problems with it.
I am suprised that there is nothing here about the attempts to start a neopagan religion in Nazi Germany - or is this dealt with at another article? Adam 00:33, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I overlooked that passage. It seems very POV to me, suggesting a clear oppositional relationship between the Nazis and neopaganism. In fact senior Nazis like Himmler, Rosenberg and Darre were active neopaganists, and Himmler sponsored a neopagan cult within the SS. (Evans, The Third Reich in Power, 251). Adam 01:29, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
The passage in Evans is several pages long and I'm not going to retype it here. The book is easy to find. Modern research has not refuted the strength of neopaganism among a section of senior Nazis, including Himmler, the second most powerrul man in Nazi Germany. The views of Rosenberg and Darre are well documented, and there was certainly official neopaganism within the SS. The fact that other people who called themselves neopaganists or whatever were persecuted doesn't alter that fact. Adam 03:34, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
A more consistently paganist in the Nazi elite was the Party's agricultural expert Richard Walther Darré, whose ideology of 'blood and soil' made such a powerful impression on Heinrich Himmler. Darré believed that the medieval Teutons had been foisted on them by the effete Latins from Southern Europe. Himmler in his turn abandoned his early Christian faith under Darré's influence. In Himmler's plans for the SS after 1933, the black-shirted racial elite was to become a kind of quasi-religious order, modelled to some extent on the Jesuits. The ideas that were to cement it together were drawn from supposed Germanic pagan rituals and beliefs of the Dark Ages... These were to be a mixture of bits of Viking or Teutonic pagan religion with Wagnerian symbols and pure invention. (Evans, pp. 251-252).
You are free to edit as you see fit, but be aware that it is a controversial issue. -
WeniWidiWiki
03:39, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Looking for participants in the the discussion of List of religions once classed as cults cairoi 14:24, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't know quite what to do with Dianic Wicca. I'm fairly certain it is wrong to even use the term Wicca to refer to Dianics, since the important factor in Wicca is gender polarity which doesn't apply even remotely to Dianic practice. But I'm not Dianic myself and don't know much about the details of their practice. It would be great if someone who knows more would clarify this. Perhaps it should be Dianic Paganism, or Dianic Tradition. -- Dmerrill
Most Dianic Wiccan's consider themselves Wiccan and do consider the birth of Wicca with Gardner the beginings of their religion; they are just a group that broke off (kind of like protestants from the Catholic church- the protestants are still Christian). Though I am not very familar with the Reclaimation Tradition (which apparently does not consider it's self to be part of Wicca), it sounds very much like Dianic Wicca and could be composed of women with very similar beliefs and practices who allie themselves more on the "political side" and less on the "Wicca side" than Dianic Wiccans. I guess I'm saying that if Dianic Wiccan's consider themselves Wiccan, who are we to say they are not. Just a thought, I may be wrong.
There are two kinds of Dianics, and I was initiated as one kind which I note first. The Dianic Craft which is women only was founded by Zsuszanna Budapest from the early 70s as a blend of Hungarian folk magic and Western feminism. This kind of Dianic cannot be Wiccan for Wiccans insist on polarity of Goddess and God (as Dmerrill says above): some Wiccan material and phrases do form part of Dianic practice however. But such Dianics do not see Wicca as their main lineage, looking instead to local folk traditions, feminist foremothers of the early 20th and late 19thC etc In particular the matriarchy tradition of Gage, Bachofen, Engels, Neumann, Murray, Gould Davis, Sjoo and Gimbutas figures largely.
Starhawk was/is the most famous of Zee's students, ref her The Spiral Dance 1979, but her Craft is not restricted to women. Her worldwide network centres on Reclaiming Coven/ Reclaiming Tradition in California. I belong to a very similar tradition in the UK.
Dianic Wicca, also known confusingly as Dianic Craft, is a variant of Wicca that centrally honours Diana, Queen of the Witches. Both women and men, Goddess & God polarity. Otherwise Wicca.
It can also help to distinguish the American usage of 'Wicca' from the British. In the USA, Wicca is a loose label, broadly similar to Paganism. In Britain Paganism is the loose term, and the Craft/ witchcraft is only one of many kinds of Paganism. Other forms are Druidry, Heathenism (Asatru/ Nordics), Eco-Paganism, Shamanism, Goddess people, High Magic, Chaos Magic, Techno-Paganism etc .....Within the Craft itself Wicca is strictly only one form, though a very important one, arguably dominant?, founded by Gardner and Valiente, and with Alexandrian Craft following on. There are other forms of Craft, not seen as offshoots, such as Starhawk's, my own Circlework, Dianics, Celtics, and the claimed Hereditaries.
Parhaps some clearification regarding Neo-Pagan, Paleo-Pagan and Meso-Pagan is an idea. Are there other types of Pagan religions?
SHould it be noted that asatruers prefer to be called heathens rater than pagans? Also the difference between the Wicca based and the other? // Liftarn 15:20 Dec 13, 2002 (UTC)
Between the section on Druidry and the mention of other Celtic
trads, there needs to be something about Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism
(CRP). This is an emerging complex of trads that are not specifically Druid,
but are based on increasingly sound scholarship and don't fit the rather
dismissive description of "Celtic Twilight" practices. I don't know enough
about it to write it, but I may be able to seduce someone who does. Feel
free to beat me to it!
Freeman 17:30 Jan 22, 2003 (UTC)
The following is copied by Laurel Bush 16:43, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC) from Talk:Paganism:
The above was copied by Laurel Bush 16:43, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC) from Talk:Paganism.
Perhaps Paganism needs a move to Proto paganism as the name of an artlicle which should include references to now emergent self-conscious (self-styled) paganism. Laurel Bush 16:56, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC).
No plans to actually do anything at present. Just making observations. Laurel Bush 10:50, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC).
No plans to actually do anything at present. Just making observations. Laurel Bush 10:50, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC).
Anyone who is involved in the Neo-Pagan community knows very well that there is a difference between paganism, Paganism, and Neo-Paganism or Neopaganism. Neo-Paganism generally refers to modern Paganism as it is practiced today or more specifically, the Neo-Pagan movement. Mirlin 21:23, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I want to delete this, because I don't believe it is true. What do you think? -- till we *) 21:20, Jul 30, 2003 (UTC)
I believe this article may need expansion to include near-eastern Neopaganisms such as the secret societies, kemeticism, hindi, etc. Although these are certainly "Western" in that they are predominantly reconstructive and recreated, they don't (I think) "claim to be a revival of mainly European Paganism." I may be very far off, but I seem to recall the two "sources" of the neopaganism movement were one predominantly reconstructive Celtic, and the other predominately recreative Egyptian. - Amgine 23:03, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I wondered if anyone with the relevant knowledge would be able to mention a bit about 'neopaganism' in South America. Adambisset 23:07, 30 July 2005 (UTC) :)
The earliest variety of Neopaganism, Neo-Druidry, was heavily inspired by Masonry and other "secret societies" around at the time. To call it "Neopaganism" is probably a bit of a misnomer, as the first few groups were mainly Christian, adapting pseudo-Masonic ritual to what they percieved as a more "Celtic" (rather than Mediterranean) flavor.
The Western mind has been for many ages shaped by Mediterranean culture, whether Egyptian, Greek, or Roman. Up until about the time of Gerald Gardner, most occult traditions were deeply intrenched in Mediterranean philosophies, and Greco-Roman Paganism had an substantial impact on the every-day Westerner's perception of polytheism. Gardner tried introducing some Norse and Celtic flavor into his watered-down form of occultism, which likely inspired other reconstructionists to delve deeper into history in search of greater authenticity. And of course the continuing Mediterranean influence (through such sources as Thelema and Masonry) in the realm of the occult drew more people to the Greco-Roman, Egyptian/Kemetic, and Sumerian reconstructions.
Then there was the "New Age" phenomenon, which introduced elements of Eastern Paganism and Post-Modernism into the Neopagan traditions; endless reincarnation, the abandonment of the belief in destiny for the more modern belief in "you can be anything you wanna be" (hence the idea that it's okay for anyone to play around with magick), the loss of a distinction between black magick and white magick, the belief in a strictly positive afterlife and disavowal of any form of evil deity or eternal punishment, and many other vast departures from traditional Western Paganism, all became standard.
In truth, it's not just the lack of attention to non-European Neopaganisms that's a problem here, it's also the lack of attention to the non-European influence on European traditions that needs fixing. -- Corvun 04:45, August 1, 2005 (UTC)
This article is being co-opted by a self-declared "stoner activist" who is reverting quite sensible material that sets Neopaganism in the context of the history of ideas and replaces it with material such as " Neopaganism is perhaps most closely related to Syncreto-Pagan religions such as Voodoo and Stregheria." Is this how neopaganism is to be characterized at Wikipedia. Not up to Wikipedia standards really. -- Wetman 06:02, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Did somebody delete my references to Christo-Paganism and Solitary Neopaganism, or was it a wiki-error? -- Whiteash 15:56, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry if I made a mistake. I've been having trouble loading the edit page. I'll fix it. -- Whiteash 15:36, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)
I would like an explination as to the removal to the link to the article on Oh My Gods! - which is a Pagan comic strip dealing directly with NeoPaganism. The commentary left by User:Wetman merely stated (rRv User:Shivian's self-advertisement for his comic strip) - however I don't understand why a article that is about a comic strip which directly deals with neopaganism was removed. The comic strip referenced in said article directly references the History of Neopaganism, Mythological and religious sources, Earth-based religions, Witchcraft, Number of adherents, Concepts of Divinity, Festivals, Traditions, Wicca, Heathenism, Celtic-based, Modern, Terms for kinds of Neopagan worship Usage of the term 'Neopagan' in different quarters, Neo-pagan as used in literary criticism. I don't see why a reference which was properly sub-categoriesed in the "see also" section was removed as "self advertisement" - when it is obviousally based on a article which does little advertising and much more historical referencing of the comic strip, it's history, and it's current place. -- Shivian Balaris 05:29, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
This is just to inform people that I want Wikipedia to accept a general policy that BC and AD represent a Christian Point of View and should be used only when they are appropriate, that is, in the context of expressing or providing an account of a Christian point of view. In other contexts, I argue that they violate our NPOV policy and we should use BCE and CE instead. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/BCE-CE Debate for the detailed proposal. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:55, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
Are we attempting to define "neopaganism" as any modern form of paganism (as the Paganism article seems to), or as a set of reconstructionist/revivalist traditions ("a heterogeneous group of religions which attempt to revive ancient ... religions")? Because the one seems to contradict the other (breaking Wiki's self-consistency policy). By the apparent Paganism definition, basically any religion or set of spiritual beliefs which exists outside a monotheistic framework is paganism, and "neopaganism" merely refers to modern spiritualities as opposed to earlier ones. Without any kind of modifier (such as "many," "commonly" or "often") "attempt to revive ancient ... religions" line seems to be too restrictive to properly agree with the Paganism definition.
The most simple way to fix this seems to be the addition of a modifier, so I did, but I'd like feedback.
Sorry I forgot to add a edit summary.-- 12.5.1.207 23:15, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm curious as to why there is no notice of the similarities between all neo-pagan religions and the organisation from which each cult span off initially, Freemasonry. It amazes me that practitioners of neo-pagan religions haven't investigated the organisation that has for the last thousand years that we know of (historically) been refered to as 'The Craft', a name that has even been stolen, not to mention thousands of rites, et cetera. Why isn't there any mention of this in this article?
Almost every neo-pagan 'rite', regardless of where it's origin is oft cited to have originated, can be found in any rite and dogma book from any masonic lodge. 211.31.9.5 04:18, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
I am trying to balance out this article, removing material relevant only to particular Neopagan groups. This article should only describe the Neopagan movement as a whole, and give a list of individual traditions; all details, such as Wiccan festivals etc., must go o the subarticles. At the moment, the article is seriously Wicca-centric; since we do have a Wicca article, this is unnecessary, Wicca can be discussed in all detail over there. dab (ᛏ) 14:22, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
well, "psychologistic" is just the adjective to "psychologism", regardless of the meaning of the term. I do think "psychologism" is used correctly here, although there is a specialized meaning in arithmetics, see here, and check general use. dab (ᛏ) 06:54, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, my connection went flaky on me yesterday before I could post to the discussion page. I found the link to the (currently non-existent) Psychologism article from this page while preparing to write an article for it. The other references in Wikipedia deal with the position in philosophy of mathematics, and so I decided that it would be less confusing if the link from this page didn't go to an article that had nothing to do with the intended use here. It's not that there is a specialized meaning in philosophy of mathematics, it's that the philosophy of mathematics meaning is the standard meaning. That's what Mill, Frege, Husserl, et al. were talking about when they wrote about psychologism. The general use google search you mention backs this up (indeed, those articles were someplace else I'd already been looking in preparing the Psychologism article). While Mill and others certainly may have intended for 'psychologism' to eventually refer to something more general, the fact is that such usage never developed (and it's probably too late to introduce it now). I edited this article so that the link would point directly to Psychologistic just in case that was a technical term from neopaganism with which I was unfamiliar, but as somebody has now created that article as a redirect to Psychologism I'm simply going to clean up the whole mess and de-link the reference in this article, rather than confuse people when they follow the link from here ("What does neopaganism have to do with philosophy of mathematics and logic?!") -- Wclark 14:44, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I linked it to Psychology instead, since that seems to capture the intended meaning in this article just fine. -- Wclark 14:48, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
I HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS, SO LISTEN TO ME...............................
It is incorrect to refer to the Dianic tradition founded by Zsusanna Budapest as being 'Wiccan', as Wicca embraces the god as well as the goddess in their worship. Strictly speaking, you should call it Dianic Witchcraft. This form of witchcraft tends to be popular with feminists and the lesbian community. Dianic Witchcraft allows only women to join their covens, and focuses on goddess worship and celebrating femininity and sisterhood. A lot of Wiccans consider this a rather imbalanced type of witchcraft, and also take issue with Dianic witches and their practise of black magick as well as white, which is against the Wiccan Rede.
As Zsusanna Budapest lives in Texas, I imagine her religious beliefs make her a target for a fair amount of criticism from Christian fundamentalist types who tend to reside in southern American states.
JONATHAN CRANE.
Slight change made to subject header. Using "or" suggested that the two words are synonomous. They aren't.
Why is there a list of kinds of religious belief in this article? Shouldn't this information be in a more general article, such as "Religion" or "Belief" or "Theology"? What is specifically Neopagan in those definitions as they are shown? I don't think there is anything so specific that justifies keeping this section in the article. -- Jdemarcos 14:38, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Pagan and neopagan are sometimes used to mean anti-religion. E.g. The Nazis were not just antisemitic but neo-pagan. I'm sure I don't have the quote exact but I heard this on the radio today on a discussion about Vatican 2. My sound card isn't working so maybe someone can go to www.kcur.org and listen to the Nov 17 Up To Date program. I always thought neopagan meant recreation of european pagan beliefs while American Indian beliefs would be just pagan. -- Gbleem 18:30, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Kristol offers a devastating critique of the liberal Protestant organizations that have been "more keenly interested in social reform than in religious belief." Lukewarm Christianity, Kristol suggests, is more attractive to Jews because they assume, incorrectly in his view, that social-minded religious people will be less likely to produce the sort of anti-Semitism "our Jewish ancestors experienced for centuries in Europe." He thinks this is a faulty assumption because vicious anti-Semitism is not Christian anti-Semitism, but neopagan (Nazi and fascist), Muslim fundamentalist, Marxist, or "simply nationalist chauvinist anti-Semitism of a kind one now finds in Japan (of all places!) or Latin America." [1] -- Gbleem 18:55, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
, Kertzer had done a brilliant job of refuting the self-exonerating claims made in the 1998 Vatican document "We Remember: A Reflection on the Shoah." The Vatican had argued that there was a sharp line separating traditional Christian anti-Judaism from Nazi racial and "neopagan" anti-Semitism. [2]-- Gbleem 18:55, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
"Neopagan/ism" is written with a capital 'N' throughout, "Pagan/ism" is sometimes written with a capital 'P', and sometimes not - is there a reason for the capitalisation? And either way, can we get some consistency in here? TheMadBaron 15:01, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
When I was working on Neopagan zines in the 80's and 90's, this is the convention we used, and which those of us from that era are still using in print and online works:
In terms of Reconstructionism, the convention we've followed has been to capitalize it when it is part of a trad name, such as Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism (CR). Lower case is used when "reconstruction" is used to describe any act of reconstructing, but not a particular religion. IMHO, the Polytheistic reconstructionism article should have Reconstructionism capitalized, though I guess it's more in a grey area as it is not a specific tradition name, as CR is. BTW, in reference to the above section, we use "CR" for both "Celtic Reconstructionism" and "Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism". Both terms are used pretty interchangeably, depending on whether the priority is brevity or the need to stress that it's a spiritual/Pagan tradition and not just an act of reconstruction. But in both cases we always use the abbreviation "CR", not "CRP". -- Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦ ♫ 21:39, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted an edit that changed a section title from simply "Wicca" to "Gardnerian Traditional Witchcraft (Wicca)". First, I do not believe that "Gardnerian Traditional Witchcraft" is in common usage; a Google search for that term turns up only about 200 hits if references to "pre-Gardnerian traditional witchcraft" are excluded. Compare this to "Wicca", which gets over three million google hits. Second, "Gardnerian Traditional Witchcraft" could be interpreted to refer only to the Gardnerian tradition of Wicca; while some people do believe that Gardnerian Wicca (or, more generally, Wicca as an initiatory mystery religion practiced in covens) is the only "real" Wicca, I don't think we should assume that in our naming of the section. Third, many people make a distinction between witchcraft (as a practice) and Wicca (as a religion), and equating Wicca with a specific variety of witchcraft begs the question against that distinction. - AdelaMae ( talk - contribs) 17:13, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
So, let me sum up a number of references for the use of the term British Traditional Wicca or BTW:
The general consensus among practioners of BTW seems to be that the descriptivist POV can't be changed, and, thus, when dealing with identifying to outsiders (if ever) the choice is to use the term British Traditional Wicca or BTW. -- Vidkun 15:05, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Removed the following from the description of pantheism: "This is a combination of animism and henotheism." This requires a source if it is to be kept, or should be at least modified to reflect that it is conjecture on the part of the writer. I think, however, that it will not survive scrutiny. It reminds me of the popular neo-pagan habit of conflating pantheism with polytheism. Pantheism need entail no other objects of reverence beside the unity of everything existing (so it is not henotheism), and it doesn't assert the existence of spirits indwelling each physical entity or phenomenon (so it is not animism). See Michael Levine, who has established himself as the contemporary philosophical authority on the subject with his exhaustive treatise Pantheism: A Non-Theistic Concept of Deity. The rest of the description is crude but functional. Vorpal Suds 05:32, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
I still think dab has a point, but the very nature of this subject might make it indeed impossible to ever catagorize satisfactorily. I just find things like "Wicca in particular emphasizes the role of witchcraft and ritual" in the Worship and Ritual section less than desirable, if not redundant. Also, for possible further reading, I'm not pushing this on anyone (and certainly not as 'the' book), but I think using Margot Adler's Drawing Down the Moon as at least a partial reference would compliment the current references. We all use what we got, not in any way passing judgement - been there myself - but the books cited are a little too niche-specific (though great as supplementary material I'm sure). And on a final note, do Discordianism, Church of the SubGenius, et al. not merit any mention here? Although; I hate to throw anything else in here to add to what could become, in theory, an endless list of over-specific Neopagan beliefs & practices. Khirad talk 13:13, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
(cross-posted on Talk:Paganism) - I am placing the {{limitedgeographicscope}} template on both this article and Paganism, and here is why. I've been re-tagging some articles from Category:Religion stubs as paganism stubs and also placing the WikiProject Neopaganism template on appropriate article talk pages, and I've had some difficulty determining whether to do this with some articles, especially the numerous articles related to syncretic African religions. I went to the Wikipedia articles on paganism and neopaganism for guidance as to the scope of these terms, and found very little. In particular, I have noticed that all of the religions on the "list of pagan religions" in Paganism and all of the traditions listed in Neopaganism are explicitly European. Neopaganism comments that "Polytheistic or animistic traditions that survived into modern times relatively untouched by Christianity and Islam, like Shinto or Hinduism are not considered pagan nor neopagan," but no explanation is given for why non-European, pre-Christian, polytheistic religions that haven't survived (or their revivals) are not included on these lists. I think that this is an important issue that merits serious discussion and deliberation. So... Are paganism and neopaganism strictly European phenomena? Are these terms used to refer to non-European religions? And should religions like Voodoo and Candomblé, both of which have been called "pagan" according to their articles, be included here? - AdelaMa e ( talk - contribs) 06:29, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Considering that the length of this entry is already very long, how should we deal with references to the specific recon groups who already have their own entries? Much of what is currently in the article discussing them is redundant. WeniWidiWiki 19:09, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Sounds good to me! WeniWidiWiki 07:02, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
A discussion of usage and capitalization/hyphenation conventions for the terms N/neo(-)P/pagan and P/pagan is ongoing on the WikiProject talk page. Contributors to this article will likely be interested in participating. - AdelaMa e ( talk - contribs) 21:12, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
"Here, the Orishas of the West African Yoruba people lived on behind the masks of Catholic saints. Yemaya, Goddess of the Sea, Terrible Mother, became the Virgin Mary. Chango, a fierce God who loves tribute made of iron and steel, became Santa Barbara, to whom Spanish soldiers also prayed in times of war. And so on." Does anyone have a source or traditional teaching about Yemaya as "Terrible Mother" and Chango (Kabio Sile) "loving tributes made of iron and steel"? I don't recall hearing the former, and the latter, while plausible, sounds more like Ogun. I realize there's a great deal of variation from house to house and branch to branch, but I'd like to know the original source on this, just to make sure. Kathryn NicDhàna 20:48, 17 March 2006 (UTC) (aleyo, but with a bit of background in Lucumi and other Afro-Carribean trads)
The summary here previous to my recent edit largely consisted of theories about Gardner's inspirations and a lengthy discussion of the differences and friction between Trad and Eclectic Craft. I swapped that out with a summary of the WP:LEAD of Wicca. Ideally our brief summary at this article should not be a content fork of our main article. The "traditions" we are listing stike me as needing review. Jkelly 21:23, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm really not sure these belong in this article. These topics certainly deserve to be on Wikipedia, but I'm thinking an article on NeoPaganism doesn't really need a section on Monotheism. I think this entire section could either be eliminated, or reduced to a paragraph or two that discusses which of these theologies are relevant to NeoPaganism and then links to pages on the theologies themselves. Kathryn NicDhàna 21:58, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I Agree with Kathryn NicDhàna. While I can understand the intent, perhaps the concepts should just be listed under See also - or not at all. WeniWidiWiki 22:20, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I have renamed the section Complementary and Contrasting Theological Concepts, moved it to the end, and reduced it to a list of links to other Wikipedia pages. I still think the article would do fine to have the section deleted entirely, as if these links are truly relevant to the article they should already be linked within the main text. Kathryn NicDhàna 22:19, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be a large amount of vegetarians within the neopagan community and I would like to request some help adding neopaganism to Vegetarianism and religion. If anyone here is interested in helping please let me know. Thanks - Solar 09:43, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I considered necessaryly to add it.
Whereas the term "Neopaganism" may be popular in the USA, it is almost never used by practitioners in the UK - where the movement began - who use the term "Paganism". TharkunColl 15:55, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I apologise if I've trodden on anyone's toes with my recent edits, re citation, verifiability etc. In particular, I'd love to find a reference for
as Hutton is an excellent and reliable commentator. I've no personal doubt as to its veracity, but I've not been able to find it in his published work. Anyone step to the plate?
First sentence of the second paragraph in History section: "These trends of pagan revival reached Germany in the late 19th century Völkisch movement, which was to become one of the main roots of 20th century Neopaganism."
Thoughts on this, anyone? I don't agree, but would like to hear what others think. -- Kathryn NicDhàna 22:24, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
We can't use Hutton as a reference for most of this discussion of Murray, because Hutton doesn't actually say much of this. Where does Hutton say that Murray's primary mistake was relying too much on the similarity of confessions? Where does Hutton claim that covens based on Murray existed before Gardner? Jkelly 21:33, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
In the UK, these groups just call themselves Pagan. Please address this somehow in the article. TharkunColl 23:21, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
A lot of the same ground is covered on both pages.
I'm not against there being two pages, this one for modern interpretations of paganism (such as wicca), and paganism for a presentation of historical sources related to pre-christian beliefs, but at the moment those two different (though related) subjects are dealt with in both pages.
But I'm no expert, so whaddaya think? -- User24 19:28, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
The Witches Voice is the largest and best known Pagan networking site in the US, and possibly the world, and is deserving of inclusion in the External Links section. -- Bill W. Smith, Jr. 17:36, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
The 4th and 5th paragraphs conflicted in whether Neopaganism's roots were in the 18th or 19th centuries. I changed the 4th paragraph to 19th, but have no real surety that I was right... -- Bill W. Smith, Jr. 12:26, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
from Syncretic and Eclectic
Eclectic pagans make up a good portion of the Open Source Spirituality movement. Rather then viewing culture and tradition as static, some eclectic pagans frame their experience in the belief that human culture is constantly evolving, with elements of some cultures merging with others in a process of hybridity (Appiah, 2006).
Was that intended as a reference? Was it a ref to Kwame Anthony Appiah? -- Bill W. Smith, Jr. 03:35, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
OrionK 16:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Why is this here? This is all rather obvious. :bloodofox: 20:46, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the recently-added map of "nodes of Neopaganism". While I appreciate the effort that went into making the graphic, there are a number of problems with it.
I am suprised that there is nothing here about the attempts to start a neopagan religion in Nazi Germany - or is this dealt with at another article? Adam 00:33, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I overlooked that passage. It seems very POV to me, suggesting a clear oppositional relationship between the Nazis and neopaganism. In fact senior Nazis like Himmler, Rosenberg and Darre were active neopaganists, and Himmler sponsored a neopagan cult within the SS. (Evans, The Third Reich in Power, 251). Adam 01:29, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
The passage in Evans is several pages long and I'm not going to retype it here. The book is easy to find. Modern research has not refuted the strength of neopaganism among a section of senior Nazis, including Himmler, the second most powerrul man in Nazi Germany. The views of Rosenberg and Darre are well documented, and there was certainly official neopaganism within the SS. The fact that other people who called themselves neopaganists or whatever were persecuted doesn't alter that fact. Adam 03:34, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
A more consistently paganist in the Nazi elite was the Party's agricultural expert Richard Walther Darré, whose ideology of 'blood and soil' made such a powerful impression on Heinrich Himmler. Darré believed that the medieval Teutons had been foisted on them by the effete Latins from Southern Europe. Himmler in his turn abandoned his early Christian faith under Darré's influence. In Himmler's plans for the SS after 1933, the black-shirted racial elite was to become a kind of quasi-religious order, modelled to some extent on the Jesuits. The ideas that were to cement it together were drawn from supposed Germanic pagan rituals and beliefs of the Dark Ages... These were to be a mixture of bits of Viking or Teutonic pagan religion with Wagnerian symbols and pure invention. (Evans, pp. 251-252).
You are free to edit as you see fit, but be aware that it is a controversial issue. -
WeniWidiWiki
03:39, 17 December 2006 (UTC)