This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Mk 14 Enhanced Battle Rifle article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | A fact from Mk 14 Enhanced Battle Rifle appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 2 October 2008, and was viewed approximately 10,632 times (
disclaimer) (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The result of the move request was: No move. After over 5 weeks and a relisting, we are no closer to a consensus to move. We have a disagreement as to whether this is a proper name, in which case it should be capitalized by WP:MOSCAPS and other relevant guidelines. Most participants seem to agree that a large majority of sources treat it as such, which fulfills the guideline's line that "Wikipedia relies on sources to determine what is a proper name; words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in sources are treated as proper names and capitalized in Wikipedia." On the other hand, we have an argument, advanced by the Wikipedia:Specialized-style fallacy essay, that sources on military topics consistently capitalize items that aren't really proper names. This is a compelling point, but support here was not enough to overcome the well-reasoned opposing arguments that it this term is indeed a proper name. Especially considering that related articles also consistently capitalize the titles in this way, I'm closing this discussion as no move. Cúchullain t/ c 16:04, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
Mk 14 Enhanced Battle Rifle →
Mk 14 enhanced battle rifle
– Move back to lower-case, per MOS:CAPS / MOS:TM, MOS:MIL, WP:NCCAPS. This is a procedural nomination, to put an RM tag on an ongoing rename discussion that didn't have one. I'm not the original move proponent, and am listing this since there's been a bit of move-warring, but very few discussion participants. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 14:09, 7 November 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. Bradv 15:39, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
PS: While WP:COMMONNAME is not a style policy, a quick examination of reliable sources shows that usage is inconsistent, despite the habit of milspec types to capitalize everything military. E.g., here's the U.S. Air Force, in an official publication, giving it in lower case ("on the Mk 14 enhanced battle rifle at") [1]. Despite claims below that gun/mil people will somehow be confused or distraught by lower-case presentation, here's military gun fans at the AR15.com forum using lower case ("the Mk14 enhanced battle rifles with") [2], U.S. military personnel at ArmyForums.com using mixed case ("the Mk 14 Mod 0 enhanced battle rifle was" – note capitalized "Mod" but lower-cased other terms) [3], and so on. One of the principle rules at MOS:CAPS is when the real-world usage is not consistent, default to lower-case. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 14:46, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
For the record, SMcC is a primary contributor (author?) to the WP:SSF Essay. This appears to be justification for the tendency of some MOS cliques on WP to not capitalize everything, the extremely stupid sentence case requirement for headings being a prime example of this idiocy. While I understand it's intentions are good, the essay and comment here go too far the other way in not being intuitive. As I've stated here already, I support the title style "Mk 14 Enhanced Battle Rifle" because that's what the sources appear to use, and the so-called "house style" being instead on is confusing to readers with a familiarity of the topic, and irrelevant to the generalized reader who isn't familiar anyway,so it won't matter to them how it's styled. I do not support "Mk 15 enhanced battle rifle" under any circumstances, as it's not a Mk. 15 anything. - BilCat ( talk) 13:13, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
For example, WP's use of sentence case for headings and titles has been a "feature" of WP since its early days and has nothing whatsoever to do with the SSF essay. More interestingly, I was the principal editor of SSF but am also one of the longest-term opponents of Wikipedia continuing to use sentence case in this manner (though I don't pick up that lance very frequently, per WP:TE and WP:1AM, and am not prone to tilt at windmills). "SMcC is a primary contributor (author?) to the WP:SSF Essay" is just an irrelevant ad hominem pseudo-argument. Every single thing on Wikipedia was written by someone. Pages do not magically appear here as gifts from the supernatural world. The point of essay pages is saving in one place arguments that are frequently repeated so they do not have to be re-typed out every time they come up. They have no authority on the basis of who wrote them, or by the sheer fact of their existence, only in the logic contained within them. You have not addressed a single thing in the reasoning of WP:SSF, so you have not presented a rebuttal of any kind, either to the page's arguments in general, nor the applicability of its reasoning to the case at hand. In short, you seem not to have actually looked into WP guidelines on the matter, nor to have any idea whom you're talking about and pointing fingers at, nor to have anything to advance but the insistence on this over-capitalization here no matter what, and are venting at anyone who disagrees with you, while totally ignoring what they're actually saying. What little rationale can be teased out of what you've posted is exactly what is described at WP:SFF.
But SFF isn't a rationale pro or con in this argument; MOS:CAPS, WP:NCCAPS, MOS:MIL, MOS:TM are. SSF is simply a summary of why that sort of "gimme my special capitalization because me and my friends like to write this way in our specialist publications, or because the govt. does in its specialist materials" is an invalid argument against these guidelines. It was an invalid argument before I wrote that essay, and it will be an invalid argument long after I'm dead. PS: I'm about 99.99% certain you knew "Mk 15" was a typo. It's been since corrected. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 14:01, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
My point, originally and currently, is that we have an existing guideline that addresses a specific type of article, of which this is one. No interpretation on anyone's part is necssary. Primergrey ( talk) 03:27, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
Support. My interpretation of "wherever a military term is an accepted proper noun, it should be capitalized" is that this would apply to M4 Sherman, where "Sherman" is a proper noun, but not to this article. Kendall-K1 ( talk) 19:48, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
Regarding Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Military_history#Capitalization, it says:
That text refers a single word, not a phrase. The text was added in 2010, [6] as a result of a discussion in 2009 that started here: [7] and ended here: [8] in which four people expressed their views. The discussion solely concerned titles in which a numeric designation is followed by a one-word noun, such as "M1 Mortar". In those cases, it's clear that the noun is not a proper noun. No one would refer to it as a "Mortar" - it'd always be a "mortar". Therefore, I think MOS:MIL does not apply to weapon names in which a numerical designation is followed by a phrase of two or more words which is used to refer to the specific item. Felsic2 ( talk) 20:21, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
It looks to me like the military weapons projects are full of over-capitalization, e.g. these that I just fixed. Looking in some of the rifle categories, caps are quite mixed. I agree it would be better to get away from the "specialist" capitalization and use what most of the rest of wikipedia uses, avoiding capitalization where it is not necessary, reserving caps for proper names. It seems that that naming convention already says to do so, so why not just do it? I'll be happy to help. Dicklyon ( talk) 03:16, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
f
Somebody should probably change all the caps in the article, it looks ridiculous like this. Primergrey ( talk) 23:18, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
No more dead links. I'm not happy with some of the links that exist, but they are there. Digitallymade ( talk) 05:36, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Mk 14 Enhanced Battle Rifle. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:42, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
Back on 2012 Nov 23, at 16:43, User:24.92.175.206 made an edit adding an acronym without a definition: ODA. Can we please have someone define it or remove it. (That user made only 4 edits in his lifetime, 3 on this page. It might do to look over those other edits as well.)
Thanks! WesT ( talk) 23:32, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
In six different places the term EBR is appended with -RI. What does that mean? Where is it defined?? (Once there is an EBR-KH, with no clear meaning as well.)
Thanks! WesT ( talk) 23:36, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
That's an M14EBR-RI. Since the page is titled for the Mk 14, I propose swapping that image with the one of an actual Mk 14 seen further down in the Users section. Spartan198 ( talk) 03:11, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Mk 14 Enhanced Battle Rifle article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | A fact from Mk 14 Enhanced Battle Rifle appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 2 October 2008, and was viewed approximately 10,632 times (
disclaimer) (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The result of the move request was: No move. After over 5 weeks and a relisting, we are no closer to a consensus to move. We have a disagreement as to whether this is a proper name, in which case it should be capitalized by WP:MOSCAPS and other relevant guidelines. Most participants seem to agree that a large majority of sources treat it as such, which fulfills the guideline's line that "Wikipedia relies on sources to determine what is a proper name; words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in sources are treated as proper names and capitalized in Wikipedia." On the other hand, we have an argument, advanced by the Wikipedia:Specialized-style fallacy essay, that sources on military topics consistently capitalize items that aren't really proper names. This is a compelling point, but support here was not enough to overcome the well-reasoned opposing arguments that it this term is indeed a proper name. Especially considering that related articles also consistently capitalize the titles in this way, I'm closing this discussion as no move. Cúchullain t/ c 16:04, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
Mk 14 Enhanced Battle Rifle →
Mk 14 enhanced battle rifle
– Move back to lower-case, per MOS:CAPS / MOS:TM, MOS:MIL, WP:NCCAPS. This is a procedural nomination, to put an RM tag on an ongoing rename discussion that didn't have one. I'm not the original move proponent, and am listing this since there's been a bit of move-warring, but very few discussion participants. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 14:09, 7 November 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. Bradv 15:39, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
PS: While WP:COMMONNAME is not a style policy, a quick examination of reliable sources shows that usage is inconsistent, despite the habit of milspec types to capitalize everything military. E.g., here's the U.S. Air Force, in an official publication, giving it in lower case ("on the Mk 14 enhanced battle rifle at") [1]. Despite claims below that gun/mil people will somehow be confused or distraught by lower-case presentation, here's military gun fans at the AR15.com forum using lower case ("the Mk14 enhanced battle rifles with") [2], U.S. military personnel at ArmyForums.com using mixed case ("the Mk 14 Mod 0 enhanced battle rifle was" – note capitalized "Mod" but lower-cased other terms) [3], and so on. One of the principle rules at MOS:CAPS is when the real-world usage is not consistent, default to lower-case. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 14:46, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
For the record, SMcC is a primary contributor (author?) to the WP:SSF Essay. This appears to be justification for the tendency of some MOS cliques on WP to not capitalize everything, the extremely stupid sentence case requirement for headings being a prime example of this idiocy. While I understand it's intentions are good, the essay and comment here go too far the other way in not being intuitive. As I've stated here already, I support the title style "Mk 14 Enhanced Battle Rifle" because that's what the sources appear to use, and the so-called "house style" being instead on is confusing to readers with a familiarity of the topic, and irrelevant to the generalized reader who isn't familiar anyway,so it won't matter to them how it's styled. I do not support "Mk 15 enhanced battle rifle" under any circumstances, as it's not a Mk. 15 anything. - BilCat ( talk) 13:13, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
For example, WP's use of sentence case for headings and titles has been a "feature" of WP since its early days and has nothing whatsoever to do with the SSF essay. More interestingly, I was the principal editor of SSF but am also one of the longest-term opponents of Wikipedia continuing to use sentence case in this manner (though I don't pick up that lance very frequently, per WP:TE and WP:1AM, and am not prone to tilt at windmills). "SMcC is a primary contributor (author?) to the WP:SSF Essay" is just an irrelevant ad hominem pseudo-argument. Every single thing on Wikipedia was written by someone. Pages do not magically appear here as gifts from the supernatural world. The point of essay pages is saving in one place arguments that are frequently repeated so they do not have to be re-typed out every time they come up. They have no authority on the basis of who wrote them, or by the sheer fact of their existence, only in the logic contained within them. You have not addressed a single thing in the reasoning of WP:SSF, so you have not presented a rebuttal of any kind, either to the page's arguments in general, nor the applicability of its reasoning to the case at hand. In short, you seem not to have actually looked into WP guidelines on the matter, nor to have any idea whom you're talking about and pointing fingers at, nor to have anything to advance but the insistence on this over-capitalization here no matter what, and are venting at anyone who disagrees with you, while totally ignoring what they're actually saying. What little rationale can be teased out of what you've posted is exactly what is described at WP:SFF.
But SFF isn't a rationale pro or con in this argument; MOS:CAPS, WP:NCCAPS, MOS:MIL, MOS:TM are. SSF is simply a summary of why that sort of "gimme my special capitalization because me and my friends like to write this way in our specialist publications, or because the govt. does in its specialist materials" is an invalid argument against these guidelines. It was an invalid argument before I wrote that essay, and it will be an invalid argument long after I'm dead. PS: I'm about 99.99% certain you knew "Mk 15" was a typo. It's been since corrected. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 14:01, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
My point, originally and currently, is that we have an existing guideline that addresses a specific type of article, of which this is one. No interpretation on anyone's part is necssary. Primergrey ( talk) 03:27, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
Support. My interpretation of "wherever a military term is an accepted proper noun, it should be capitalized" is that this would apply to M4 Sherman, where "Sherman" is a proper noun, but not to this article. Kendall-K1 ( talk) 19:48, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
Regarding Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Military_history#Capitalization, it says:
That text refers a single word, not a phrase. The text was added in 2010, [6] as a result of a discussion in 2009 that started here: [7] and ended here: [8] in which four people expressed their views. The discussion solely concerned titles in which a numeric designation is followed by a one-word noun, such as "M1 Mortar". In those cases, it's clear that the noun is not a proper noun. No one would refer to it as a "Mortar" - it'd always be a "mortar". Therefore, I think MOS:MIL does not apply to weapon names in which a numerical designation is followed by a phrase of two or more words which is used to refer to the specific item. Felsic2 ( talk) 20:21, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
It looks to me like the military weapons projects are full of over-capitalization, e.g. these that I just fixed. Looking in some of the rifle categories, caps are quite mixed. I agree it would be better to get away from the "specialist" capitalization and use what most of the rest of wikipedia uses, avoiding capitalization where it is not necessary, reserving caps for proper names. It seems that that naming convention already says to do so, so why not just do it? I'll be happy to help. Dicklyon ( talk) 03:16, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
f
Somebody should probably change all the caps in the article, it looks ridiculous like this. Primergrey ( talk) 23:18, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
No more dead links. I'm not happy with some of the links that exist, but they are there. Digitallymade ( talk) 05:36, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Mk 14 Enhanced Battle Rifle. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:42, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
Back on 2012 Nov 23, at 16:43, User:24.92.175.206 made an edit adding an acronym without a definition: ODA. Can we please have someone define it or remove it. (That user made only 4 edits in his lifetime, 3 on this page. It might do to look over those other edits as well.)
Thanks! WesT ( talk) 23:32, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
In six different places the term EBR is appended with -RI. What does that mean? Where is it defined?? (Once there is an EBR-KH, with no clear meaning as well.)
Thanks! WesT ( talk) 23:36, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
That's an M14EBR-RI. Since the page is titled for the Mk 14, I propose swapping that image with the one of an actual Mk 14 seen further down in the Users section. Spartan198 ( talk) 03:11, 2 February 2023 (UTC)