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{{ Infobox swimmer}} never states that the nationality is reserved for the country for which she competes. Why are we stating that it does? Right now there is a silly edit war that should be discussed here. In addition, we're getting a little bitey aren't we? Ryan Vesey 17:01, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
{{USA}}<br/>{{CAN}}
for consistency.
Ryan
Vesey 17:03, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
|ethnicity=
and |citizenship=
. In addition, it may be necessary to remove the flag icons from all of these pages per
WP:INFOBOXFLAG. I noticed there has been a recent discussion on it at
Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Icons. I haven't had a chance to read through the entire thing but you may want to take part.
Ryan
Vesey 18:11, 31 July 2012 (UTC)Why would it be misleading to mention the fact that she is a Citizen of both countries? These are facts, not opinions. The fact that she is a proud American and competes for the USA does not change the fact that she is dual. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.10.193.23 ( talk) 18:19, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
it looks like someone removed the quote about why she chose to swim for the USA instead of Canada. I think this is pretty important in leading off to her international career. Also, let's look to milorad cavic's page for guidance on how to handle Franklin's nationality. We need consistency. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.85.98.46 ( talk) 15:22, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm a bit disturbed by the lack of participation on this topic and by the precedent that has been set in all swimming articles. Please note that articles are not only about their swimming career. The section of the infobox with nationality is Personal Information. That means her swimming should be irrelevant to her nationality. The country she competes for appears in her medal record. Ryan Vesey 20:57, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
Anyone going to add why missy chose to swim for America and not Canada? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.85.98.46 ( talk) 00:14, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
I know that and that answer along with a quote from her was in the article. I wanted to know why it was taken out. If there was no good reason I'm going to add it back in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.85.98.46 ( talk) 00:45, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Has anyone come up with any ideas on how we'll handle her nationality? Calling her a canadian swimmer in the lead could be a bit misleading as it hints that she swims for the canadian team. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.85.98.46 ( talk) 14:56, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Why not set it to show that she is a dual-citizen, but competes for the US. It already has the information that she competes for the US, but it is hidden by default, but if somebody added a "show-medals = yes", you would know she competed for the US and then you can add the Canadian citizenship. Leaving it as showing only US citizenship is factually incorrect, and the goal should be to be as accurate as possible, and when not possible, not to be misleading. Gedcke ( talk) 00:17, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
Wow there's a lot of stupid nationality pushing on here. Saying her only connection to Canada is her parent's birthplaces is absurd. She was on international television last week stating that she spends at least 1/4 of the year in Canada and she considers herself just as much Canadian as American. -- 24.202.1.112 ( talk) 01:04, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
This was discussed extensively, but it seems one user refuses to listen and because of one individual, the whole page is locked down. Your enthusiasm is welcomed, but let's civilly discuss this. First all, her nationality is discussed and there's no conspiracy to hide that fact. Look at the "Personal life" section, there's pretty much a full paragraph talking about her Canadian parents. So the user saying "Any mention of her Canadian nationality is quickly taken off" is completely false. No one is denying that fact. The lead is generally reserved for notable achievements, and Franklin's achievements is competing and winning medals for the United States. It would be misleading to put "American-Canadian" because although that is techinally true, she has competed, lived, went to school in the United States her whole life. If one was to read that, they would assume she has strong ties to Canada. But other than her parents and maybe a couple of visits, that's not the case. In addition, this change would go against the general formatting of all 700+ USA swimmer's bios. I say we keep it the way it was. Philipmj24 ( talk) 10:56, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Missy Franklin is American. End of story. The dual is something she had nothing to do with, but given the chance to represent Canada, she chose the USA. Dual is common among citizens of both countries- probably one of most unique constructions of citizenship in the world today. It's also representative of the simplicity and ease of the cross border relationship that speaks to how families over generations ended up on different sides of the border, but are still extended families. At some point in the future the dual might be useful to Franklin as a gateway to an opportunity, say as commentator on a Canadian network, and she'd have every right to take it up because she's also Canadian.xyxyxyconsulzephyr Consulzephyr ( talk) 00:34, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Tangential but apropos given the discussion. I recently removed the flag icon from the infobox, and it was restored. This has always seemed confusing to me and even more so now. We already have a flag appearing with her in the medal record table within the infobox, which states she is a competitor for the United States. Why do we need another flag? If we are to have another flag, the whole nationality bit can be readily sidestepped by including a "Competes for" field in the "Sport" section of the infobox, which makes a hell of a lot more sense than stating (half incorrectly) her nationality as United States in the "Personal Information" (emphasis mine) portion of the infobox , when in fact she carries dual citizenship, regardless of who she competes for. She has a " much-publicized love for Canada", and her favorite place in the world is in Canada [1], yet all we can do is barely mention in one line that she has dual citizenship, and bury that down in the personal life section of her bio? Really? I think the infobox here should be treated like Nick Calathes or Alberto Salazar. -- Hammersoft ( talk) 17:03, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
Similar discussion with dual citizenship inspired by Senorcanadiense is at Talk:Steve_Nash#Nationality_in_infobox. My thoughts there seem relevant here too. Per WP:OPENPARAGRAPH: "Similarly, previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." Common sense would seem to imply for her inherited citizenship. Her holding a Canadian passport is a technicality. She is mostly mentioned as an American, and he has not represented the Canadian national team, so it seems irrelevant to the lead, or infobox in this case.— Bagumba ( talk) 02:39, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
I think the encylopedia should either have the infobox and lead for nationality and actually list all of the nationalities the individual possesses or not have an infobox and lead with any nationalities because the editing of it is ridiculous. There are way too many subjective decisions being made instead of objective decisions, which is the whole point of an encyclopedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Senorcanadiense ( talk • contribs) 22:30, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
I look at definitions of "Nationality" available on the web and here's what I find:
Not one of these definitions has anything to do with a person's profession, career, or competitive sport. Yet, we say "Nationality" and have to insist on not listing Canada (in addition to the U.S.) for Missy even though she is, in fact, Canadian. Whether or not she has competed for Canada is irrelevant to her nationality. -- Hammersoft ( talk) 00:20, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
The guidelines are meant in general to guide. They do not have to be strictly followed under all circumstances. There seems to be consensus here among more than one person that Franklin's nationality should be listed accurately. Also, perhaps the guideline should be updated since nationality is a legal relationship. I still don't understand how one can argue to include a category that is clearly defined legally, and then, when people try to include the legal nationalities of the individual, it's edited out. How can you edit out correct information??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Senorcanadiense ( talk • contribs) 06:51, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
As discussed above, I have added a mention of her American-Canadian dual citizenship to the second paragraph of the lead and and explanatory footnote regarding same to her sporting nationality shown in the infobox. Hopefully, that will settle this matter for some time to come. Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 03:03, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
She just won the Honda Award, see Honda-Broderick Cup, I'm not sure how best to integrate into article.-- S Philbrick (Talk) 16:22, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
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Starting at the records section, all of the sections and subsections are shifted right. I can't quite figure out how to fix it but thought it was worth noting. Procyonidae ( talk) 23:21, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
I undid the name change in the infobox and also the article name that was based solely on the fact she got married. I checked the reference for her marriage and saw nothing that indicated she changed her name on marriage. Name changes on marriage for women are not automatically done in modern times as it was in the past. For women who have notable accomplishments previous to marriage many choose to not change their name from the one they were most known as. If she has actually changed her name we need a reference that she did so and also what she changed it to - we can't assume she just tacked her husband's surname to the end of her birth name, there are a lot of options. Geraldo Perez ( talk) 01:07, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
Also this reference in the article:
Dated a year after her marriage refers to her as Missy Franklin indicating she did not change her name on marriage. Geraldo Perez ( talk) 04:25, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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{{ Infobox swimmer}} never states that the nationality is reserved for the country for which she competes. Why are we stating that it does? Right now there is a silly edit war that should be discussed here. In addition, we're getting a little bitey aren't we? Ryan Vesey 17:01, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
{{USA}}<br/>{{CAN}}
for consistency.
Ryan
Vesey 17:03, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
|ethnicity=
and |citizenship=
. In addition, it may be necessary to remove the flag icons from all of these pages per
WP:INFOBOXFLAG. I noticed there has been a recent discussion on it at
Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Icons. I haven't had a chance to read through the entire thing but you may want to take part.
Ryan
Vesey 18:11, 31 July 2012 (UTC)Why would it be misleading to mention the fact that she is a Citizen of both countries? These are facts, not opinions. The fact that she is a proud American and competes for the USA does not change the fact that she is dual. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.10.193.23 ( talk) 18:19, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
it looks like someone removed the quote about why she chose to swim for the USA instead of Canada. I think this is pretty important in leading off to her international career. Also, let's look to milorad cavic's page for guidance on how to handle Franklin's nationality. We need consistency. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.85.98.46 ( talk) 15:22, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm a bit disturbed by the lack of participation on this topic and by the precedent that has been set in all swimming articles. Please note that articles are not only about their swimming career. The section of the infobox with nationality is Personal Information. That means her swimming should be irrelevant to her nationality. The country she competes for appears in her medal record. Ryan Vesey 20:57, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
Anyone going to add why missy chose to swim for America and not Canada? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.85.98.46 ( talk) 00:14, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
I know that and that answer along with a quote from her was in the article. I wanted to know why it was taken out. If there was no good reason I'm going to add it back in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.85.98.46 ( talk) 00:45, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Has anyone come up with any ideas on how we'll handle her nationality? Calling her a canadian swimmer in the lead could be a bit misleading as it hints that she swims for the canadian team. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.85.98.46 ( talk) 14:56, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Why not set it to show that she is a dual-citizen, but competes for the US. It already has the information that she competes for the US, but it is hidden by default, but if somebody added a "show-medals = yes", you would know she competed for the US and then you can add the Canadian citizenship. Leaving it as showing only US citizenship is factually incorrect, and the goal should be to be as accurate as possible, and when not possible, not to be misleading. Gedcke ( talk) 00:17, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
Wow there's a lot of stupid nationality pushing on here. Saying her only connection to Canada is her parent's birthplaces is absurd. She was on international television last week stating that she spends at least 1/4 of the year in Canada and she considers herself just as much Canadian as American. -- 24.202.1.112 ( talk) 01:04, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
This was discussed extensively, but it seems one user refuses to listen and because of one individual, the whole page is locked down. Your enthusiasm is welcomed, but let's civilly discuss this. First all, her nationality is discussed and there's no conspiracy to hide that fact. Look at the "Personal life" section, there's pretty much a full paragraph talking about her Canadian parents. So the user saying "Any mention of her Canadian nationality is quickly taken off" is completely false. No one is denying that fact. The lead is generally reserved for notable achievements, and Franklin's achievements is competing and winning medals for the United States. It would be misleading to put "American-Canadian" because although that is techinally true, she has competed, lived, went to school in the United States her whole life. If one was to read that, they would assume she has strong ties to Canada. But other than her parents and maybe a couple of visits, that's not the case. In addition, this change would go against the general formatting of all 700+ USA swimmer's bios. I say we keep it the way it was. Philipmj24 ( talk) 10:56, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Missy Franklin is American. End of story. The dual is something she had nothing to do with, but given the chance to represent Canada, she chose the USA. Dual is common among citizens of both countries- probably one of most unique constructions of citizenship in the world today. It's also representative of the simplicity and ease of the cross border relationship that speaks to how families over generations ended up on different sides of the border, but are still extended families. At some point in the future the dual might be useful to Franklin as a gateway to an opportunity, say as commentator on a Canadian network, and she'd have every right to take it up because she's also Canadian.xyxyxyconsulzephyr Consulzephyr ( talk) 00:34, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Tangential but apropos given the discussion. I recently removed the flag icon from the infobox, and it was restored. This has always seemed confusing to me and even more so now. We already have a flag appearing with her in the medal record table within the infobox, which states she is a competitor for the United States. Why do we need another flag? If we are to have another flag, the whole nationality bit can be readily sidestepped by including a "Competes for" field in the "Sport" section of the infobox, which makes a hell of a lot more sense than stating (half incorrectly) her nationality as United States in the "Personal Information" (emphasis mine) portion of the infobox , when in fact she carries dual citizenship, regardless of who she competes for. She has a " much-publicized love for Canada", and her favorite place in the world is in Canada [1], yet all we can do is barely mention in one line that she has dual citizenship, and bury that down in the personal life section of her bio? Really? I think the infobox here should be treated like Nick Calathes or Alberto Salazar. -- Hammersoft ( talk) 17:03, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
Similar discussion with dual citizenship inspired by Senorcanadiense is at Talk:Steve_Nash#Nationality_in_infobox. My thoughts there seem relevant here too. Per WP:OPENPARAGRAPH: "Similarly, previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." Common sense would seem to imply for her inherited citizenship. Her holding a Canadian passport is a technicality. She is mostly mentioned as an American, and he has not represented the Canadian national team, so it seems irrelevant to the lead, or infobox in this case.— Bagumba ( talk) 02:39, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
I think the encylopedia should either have the infobox and lead for nationality and actually list all of the nationalities the individual possesses or not have an infobox and lead with any nationalities because the editing of it is ridiculous. There are way too many subjective decisions being made instead of objective decisions, which is the whole point of an encyclopedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Senorcanadiense ( talk • contribs) 22:30, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
I look at definitions of "Nationality" available on the web and here's what I find:
Not one of these definitions has anything to do with a person's profession, career, or competitive sport. Yet, we say "Nationality" and have to insist on not listing Canada (in addition to the U.S.) for Missy even though she is, in fact, Canadian. Whether or not she has competed for Canada is irrelevant to her nationality. -- Hammersoft ( talk) 00:20, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
The guidelines are meant in general to guide. They do not have to be strictly followed under all circumstances. There seems to be consensus here among more than one person that Franklin's nationality should be listed accurately. Also, perhaps the guideline should be updated since nationality is a legal relationship. I still don't understand how one can argue to include a category that is clearly defined legally, and then, when people try to include the legal nationalities of the individual, it's edited out. How can you edit out correct information??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Senorcanadiense ( talk • contribs) 06:51, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
As discussed above, I have added a mention of her American-Canadian dual citizenship to the second paragraph of the lead and and explanatory footnote regarding same to her sporting nationality shown in the infobox. Hopefully, that will settle this matter for some time to come. Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 03:03, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
She just won the Honda Award, see Honda-Broderick Cup, I'm not sure how best to integrate into article.-- S Philbrick (Talk) 16:22, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
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http://www.omegatiming.com/swimming/racearchives/2011/ConocoPhillipsNational/C73A1_Res1Heat_126_Finals_1_Women_100_Free.pdf{{
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Starting at the records section, all of the sections and subsections are shifted right. I can't quite figure out how to fix it but thought it was worth noting. Procyonidae ( talk) 23:21, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
I undid the name change in the infobox and also the article name that was based solely on the fact she got married. I checked the reference for her marriage and saw nothing that indicated she changed her name on marriage. Name changes on marriage for women are not automatically done in modern times as it was in the past. For women who have notable accomplishments previous to marriage many choose to not change their name from the one they were most known as. If she has actually changed her name we need a reference that she did so and also what she changed it to - we can't assume she just tacked her husband's surname to the end of her birth name, there are a lot of options. Geraldo Perez ( talk) 01:07, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
Also this reference in the article:
Dated a year after her marriage refers to her as Missy Franklin indicating she did not change her name on marriage. Geraldo Perez ( talk) 04:25, 22 April 2021 (UTC)