This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
About Barton being editor of the Koala
1) The Koala is a newspaper, not magazine
2) The Koala is not pornagraphic. It's racist, politically incorrect, insensative, offensive, etc. but not pornographic. Did you bother reading of the issued they have online?
I don't know how this citenewsauthor template works, but it doesn't seem to allow for disambiguations. The Paul Harris being linked to in this article is the wrong one. Rick K 03:23, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
This article is extremely biased, the only part of the article that presents any supportive information about the minutemen is the one I just added about the Union endorsement. No other mention of how local border patrol agents have been totally receptive of the minutemen because it gives their operation the manpower it needs to do its job.
~ Micahel J. McGuirk (April 18th 2005)
Criticism is three times more voluminous than praise or even general information about the Minutemen. You might have mentioned that the MM STOPPED the invasion of the US COLD in one of the most high-volume stretches of the border.
Stopped the invasion? Those "people" have no place there. They have no training, and no right to attempt to commit their own brand of justice. The should go back to their suburbs and look for the Osama bogey man under their beds. Or, here's a revolutionary thought... they can take all of their misplaced energy, spend some time reforming government and stop US meddling in South America, help strengthen their economies and remedy their polotical chaos... then they would want to stay in their own countries instead of coming to ours.
That might be too tough for our dear old Minute Men though, eh? They're weak.
They also caused the arrest of about 400 invaders.
Excuse me, but i am a hippy and i live in the middle of the forest and lsiten to Jimmi Hendrix and think Ken Kesey is cool. However ,I do own a computer, and I dont live in a commune, so HA!-A Concerned Hippy From La Honda
Guys,
The Voz de Aztlan is a racist, separatist, anti-Semitic rag. Even the whackos at the SPLC are offended by it, and they usually just pick on people for being white.
The t-shirt incident should be a one-line mention at most. It is largely irrelevant to whom the MM are and what they do. This must be one of the few entries this side of Pol Pot that is 70% criticism.
I have added two lines on the documented activities of the ACLU "legal observers." You let them take potshots at the mmp.
Thanks.
SPS Sixpackshakur
I noticed this:
Project organizers, however, said they have a more restrictive policy that no contact at all can be made with suspects.
That's not entirely true, as far as I'm aware. My understanding is that no contact at all can be made with suspects unless they are in need of assistance, as in, they are in immediate need of food/water, medical attention, and so forth. --Jack ( Cuervo) 03:42, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Jack, you're correct
I reverted an edit by someone that stated the names of the two victims in the Garden Grove incident as Hawkeye and Boy. I know the name of one of the victims (check history) and I know it isnt Hawkeye or "Boy". However, if these are some sort of aliases or something, used by those people, then please explain so here. Otherwise it appears to be vandalism and I reverted it. - CunningLinguist 01:09, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The contributors really need to read the text at Wikipedia:neutral point of view. As a casual and occasional reader of the Wikipedia, I am discouraged to see the display of bias presented in this article. The structure of the article itself, while seemingly making an effort to avoid bias, in fact encourages it. By having sections that represent 'Supporters' and 'Critics', the author(s) have set up a debate whereby only the most active contributors can win by overwhelming their opponents by mere quantity; indeed, the current content proves that this is exactly what is happening.
The 'CunningLinguist' above demonstrates how this happens. While I found the T-Shirt incident part of the article fairly benign (and for the record I support the MMP), the rationale CunningLinguist gives is derived from the simple stereotyping of an opposing point of view. Consider the statement, “It is extremely relevant to whom the MM are as it shows that the attitude the group has while it undertakes its operations and how it views those it ‘catches’.” How can a single incident (for good or ill) be extrapolated to be an attribute of an entire group and not be stereotyping? Would it be right for me to edit an article on environmentalists to include a section on the burning down of a Hummer dealership since it is an incident that “shows that the attitude the group (environmentalist activists) has while it undertakes its operations”? Of course not as there are many views within the community of environmentalists, some of which are extreme and destructive, but not all.
With the more subtle bias demonstrated above and with quantity of critical commentary in the article, one would believe that there is a small minority that support the MMP and their cause. But in reality the split is probably more difficult to ascertain with any reliability and more likely somewhat evenly split between those that view illegal immigrants as mere undocumented workers versus those that consider them illegal aliens.
I think most of the controversy section should go as should the ‘support’ section. The entire controversy section could be summed up squarely and honestly in two short paragraphs and a single sentence recognizing that there is controversy. One paragraph describing who the supporters are with their point of view and another paragraph on who the dissenters are with their viewpoint.
Most importantly, I will have to question the credibility of Wikipedia articles more closely. A shame people can’t really come together to write without trying to sell their politics.
Sbuttgereit 06:30, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Do we have a source for the U.S. Border Patrol Local 2544's statement supporting the Minutemen? I'll look for the website. Theshibboleth 00:39, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
The article states that video is available of the "Garden Grove Incident," but no links are provided. (I'll look for one.) Theshibboleth 01:16, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
What are our sources for these comments by supporters? Thanks, - Willmcw 02:50, July 28, 2005 (UTC)
The minute men aren't anti-immigrant. They are anti ILLEGAL immigrant. They are also not racist since they have Hispanic members in their ranks.
Rchamberlain created a new article called Minuteman Civil Defense Corps, copy/pasted the content from this article and then turned the orginal article into a redirect. I have reversed this and left a message on Rchamberlain's talk page, requesting that the page is instead moved (if desired). Cheers TigerShark 10:20, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
The Minuteman Project has been incorporated and officially renamed as the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps, Inc. and should be noted as such. The Minuteman Project is a largely defunct title and it should be redirected to the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps.
I've put in a request to start developing an article on certain other border action groups, such as the Border Action Network and No Mas Muertes, but I think this would be a good place to mention them, since both were involved in observing the Minutemen in action. I think it could serve for some interesting commentary since groups like BAN, NMD and MMP have such similar views about the core causes of these problems, yet such divergent ideas about solutions.-- Ramon omar 00:14, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
I am ammused that someone mentioned the 200 strong minuteman rally at the Sacramento Capitol without mentioning the 600-800 strong counter-protest that accompanied it. I made sure to fix that. Viva Viva Anarquista!
As long as we mention the peaceful (read: violent) attempts some of the 600-800 "Anarquistas" to disrupt the rally, since a lawful rally is so bad you need to do that sort of thing. Oh, and it's 4 of these things --> ~ to sign your name. Orbframe 08:40, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
I have removed this entry from the category vigilantes as this is obviously a grossly-biased and distorted perspective on the group.
Re: James Gilchrist's comments: "James Gilchrist, co-founder of the Minuteman Project, at a May 25, 2005 speech, to wit: "I'm damn proud to be a vigilante." From the Orange County Register, May 26, 2005 (fee required), cited in The Center for New Community Special Report October 2005."
This statement by Gilchrist was definitely a tongue-in-cheek statement.
If, by the seemingly prevailing definition of vigilante, you consider the members of the Minuteman Project vigilantes, then members of local neighborhood watch programs are also vigilantes, by that same definition. Do you consider local neighborhood watch programs to be bad for our society?
There is one difference, neighborhood watch programs are usually sanctioned by the town and supported by the local police department. The Minutemen Project, however, is doing whatever they are doing against the wishes of the Border Patrol. - Rafanetx 00:07, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not "open source" if people's contributions are deliberately vandalized. About half of the information on the "Minuteman Project" has been stripped from this article in 5 minutes--information that took hours of many people's time to gather, verify, and post.
This points to the great vulnerability of the entire Wikipedia experiment. The danger is not in too much information, nor is it in biased information. Wikipedia's goal, as I understand, is that in hearing all sides and gathering all information, the truth will eventually be discernable. When information is maliciously deleted, Wikipedia is no longer open and can no longer achieve its goal--in fact, it turns into its opposite, a conduit for Newspeak.
Which is what this article has turned into.
I'll WP:AGF that it was simply poor editing that the 6 links at the end of the article (including one to a self-identified parody of the Minutemen) didn't contain a single one actually to the Minutemen's actual homepage. That being said, can someone tell me why there are links to
in the link section? Lawyer2b 02:58, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
"Vigilantes" are people who assume the function of law enforcement. Considering that everything the activists involved in the Minuteman Project did was well within their rights and by no means outside of the law, it hardly makes sense that they and the project should be considered an example of vigiliantism. Seems more like an anti-project bias to me.
I think the concern was with the accuracy of the term. George Bush is hardly noted for having accurate use of English, so I wouldn't be the least bit concerned with how he used the term. If the Minuteman Project activists weren't assuming function of law enforcement outside the bounds of their rights, it just doesn't make sense to label them as "vigilantes". People have tossed many terms around in application to either side of the situation, and my only concern is with the correctness in applying such terms. Is there anyone else who thinks the term "vigilante" is being used inaccurately? If not, then I suppose current majority opinion/consensus will stand. 6EQUJ5 14:54, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
An anon rm from the lead section Senior law enforcement officers state that they fear the project will lead to vigilante violence. I substituted in its place Local law enforcement has expressed concerns about the possibility of vigilante violence and confrontations between armed volunteers and authorities; US Border Patrol has complained that volunteers trip sensors, diverting official manpower to false alarms.
This is supported by this reference. John Reid 21:36, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
The offical name for this organization is the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps. I propose a move to that new name, with Minuteman Project redirecting there. Any opinion on this, folks? TheKaplan 04:53, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
This article badly needs to be cleaned up. The brief description of what the group is, what it does, why it does it, etc. is lost amid a sea of criticism. I'm going to try to flesh out the who what when where why and see if we can't tighten down the criticism section, which appears to be pretty inflated. The dual "supporters say," "critics say" format is just an invitation to the LPOV vs RPOV bloating that can destroy a good article that really needs to be NPOV. TheKaplan 04:57, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Why the axe Gov? Morton devonshire 01:19, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
When I first loaded this page the first sentence called this group a Radical Racist Group. The very first sentence. It seems to have changed in only a few minutes to something less biased. But it says at the top "Current Event", but this article CLEARLY needs to say, "Contested". BillyTFried
I've been watching this page for many months now. It's just become ridiculous. As Kaplan says above in his "clean up" remarks, the Pro-illegal-immigration vs Anti-illegal-immigration rhetoric bloats this "article" beyond any recognition of anything remotely approaching encyclopaedic. The article is full of unsourced statements, "citation needed" tags, and blatant soapboxing and POV pushing from both sides. While I respect the contributors' time and efforts to edit this "article", the basic tenents of WP require editors to do their research and properly source their statements. Accordingly, I intend to delete every unsourced statement (regardless of POV, left or right) in this article after a period of one week from today. This page is edited very frequently, one week is enough time for serious editors to cite their sources (if you put in here, you should easily be able to say where you got it from). It's pages like this that compromise the integrity of the whole of Wikipedia.
Of course, I welcome any comments, but I prefer that you spend that time and energy improving this article. WP:NOT, WP:V, No Original Research.-- WilliamThweatt 23:42, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
It seems that when i edit and preview the changes,some content goes to refernces links rather then where there supposed to be
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
About Barton being editor of the Koala
1) The Koala is a newspaper, not magazine
2) The Koala is not pornagraphic. It's racist, politically incorrect, insensative, offensive, etc. but not pornographic. Did you bother reading of the issued they have online?
I don't know how this citenewsauthor template works, but it doesn't seem to allow for disambiguations. The Paul Harris being linked to in this article is the wrong one. Rick K 03:23, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
This article is extremely biased, the only part of the article that presents any supportive information about the minutemen is the one I just added about the Union endorsement. No other mention of how local border patrol agents have been totally receptive of the minutemen because it gives their operation the manpower it needs to do its job.
~ Micahel J. McGuirk (April 18th 2005)
Criticism is three times more voluminous than praise or even general information about the Minutemen. You might have mentioned that the MM STOPPED the invasion of the US COLD in one of the most high-volume stretches of the border.
Stopped the invasion? Those "people" have no place there. They have no training, and no right to attempt to commit their own brand of justice. The should go back to their suburbs and look for the Osama bogey man under their beds. Or, here's a revolutionary thought... they can take all of their misplaced energy, spend some time reforming government and stop US meddling in South America, help strengthen their economies and remedy their polotical chaos... then they would want to stay in their own countries instead of coming to ours.
That might be too tough for our dear old Minute Men though, eh? They're weak.
They also caused the arrest of about 400 invaders.
Excuse me, but i am a hippy and i live in the middle of the forest and lsiten to Jimmi Hendrix and think Ken Kesey is cool. However ,I do own a computer, and I dont live in a commune, so HA!-A Concerned Hippy From La Honda
Guys,
The Voz de Aztlan is a racist, separatist, anti-Semitic rag. Even the whackos at the SPLC are offended by it, and they usually just pick on people for being white.
The t-shirt incident should be a one-line mention at most. It is largely irrelevant to whom the MM are and what they do. This must be one of the few entries this side of Pol Pot that is 70% criticism.
I have added two lines on the documented activities of the ACLU "legal observers." You let them take potshots at the mmp.
Thanks.
SPS Sixpackshakur
I noticed this:
Project organizers, however, said they have a more restrictive policy that no contact at all can be made with suspects.
That's not entirely true, as far as I'm aware. My understanding is that no contact at all can be made with suspects unless they are in need of assistance, as in, they are in immediate need of food/water, medical attention, and so forth. --Jack ( Cuervo) 03:42, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Jack, you're correct
I reverted an edit by someone that stated the names of the two victims in the Garden Grove incident as Hawkeye and Boy. I know the name of one of the victims (check history) and I know it isnt Hawkeye or "Boy". However, if these are some sort of aliases or something, used by those people, then please explain so here. Otherwise it appears to be vandalism and I reverted it. - CunningLinguist 01:09, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The contributors really need to read the text at Wikipedia:neutral point of view. As a casual and occasional reader of the Wikipedia, I am discouraged to see the display of bias presented in this article. The structure of the article itself, while seemingly making an effort to avoid bias, in fact encourages it. By having sections that represent 'Supporters' and 'Critics', the author(s) have set up a debate whereby only the most active contributors can win by overwhelming their opponents by mere quantity; indeed, the current content proves that this is exactly what is happening.
The 'CunningLinguist' above demonstrates how this happens. While I found the T-Shirt incident part of the article fairly benign (and for the record I support the MMP), the rationale CunningLinguist gives is derived from the simple stereotyping of an opposing point of view. Consider the statement, “It is extremely relevant to whom the MM are as it shows that the attitude the group has while it undertakes its operations and how it views those it ‘catches’.” How can a single incident (for good or ill) be extrapolated to be an attribute of an entire group and not be stereotyping? Would it be right for me to edit an article on environmentalists to include a section on the burning down of a Hummer dealership since it is an incident that “shows that the attitude the group (environmentalist activists) has while it undertakes its operations”? Of course not as there are many views within the community of environmentalists, some of which are extreme and destructive, but not all.
With the more subtle bias demonstrated above and with quantity of critical commentary in the article, one would believe that there is a small minority that support the MMP and their cause. But in reality the split is probably more difficult to ascertain with any reliability and more likely somewhat evenly split between those that view illegal immigrants as mere undocumented workers versus those that consider them illegal aliens.
I think most of the controversy section should go as should the ‘support’ section. The entire controversy section could be summed up squarely and honestly in two short paragraphs and a single sentence recognizing that there is controversy. One paragraph describing who the supporters are with their point of view and another paragraph on who the dissenters are with their viewpoint.
Most importantly, I will have to question the credibility of Wikipedia articles more closely. A shame people can’t really come together to write without trying to sell their politics.
Sbuttgereit 06:30, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Do we have a source for the U.S. Border Patrol Local 2544's statement supporting the Minutemen? I'll look for the website. Theshibboleth 00:39, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
The article states that video is available of the "Garden Grove Incident," but no links are provided. (I'll look for one.) Theshibboleth 01:16, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
What are our sources for these comments by supporters? Thanks, - Willmcw 02:50, July 28, 2005 (UTC)
The minute men aren't anti-immigrant. They are anti ILLEGAL immigrant. They are also not racist since they have Hispanic members in their ranks.
Rchamberlain created a new article called Minuteman Civil Defense Corps, copy/pasted the content from this article and then turned the orginal article into a redirect. I have reversed this and left a message on Rchamberlain's talk page, requesting that the page is instead moved (if desired). Cheers TigerShark 10:20, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
The Minuteman Project has been incorporated and officially renamed as the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps, Inc. and should be noted as such. The Minuteman Project is a largely defunct title and it should be redirected to the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps.
I've put in a request to start developing an article on certain other border action groups, such as the Border Action Network and No Mas Muertes, but I think this would be a good place to mention them, since both were involved in observing the Minutemen in action. I think it could serve for some interesting commentary since groups like BAN, NMD and MMP have such similar views about the core causes of these problems, yet such divergent ideas about solutions.-- Ramon omar 00:14, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
I am ammused that someone mentioned the 200 strong minuteman rally at the Sacramento Capitol without mentioning the 600-800 strong counter-protest that accompanied it. I made sure to fix that. Viva Viva Anarquista!
As long as we mention the peaceful (read: violent) attempts some of the 600-800 "Anarquistas" to disrupt the rally, since a lawful rally is so bad you need to do that sort of thing. Oh, and it's 4 of these things --> ~ to sign your name. Orbframe 08:40, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
I have removed this entry from the category vigilantes as this is obviously a grossly-biased and distorted perspective on the group.
Re: James Gilchrist's comments: "James Gilchrist, co-founder of the Minuteman Project, at a May 25, 2005 speech, to wit: "I'm damn proud to be a vigilante." From the Orange County Register, May 26, 2005 (fee required), cited in The Center for New Community Special Report October 2005."
This statement by Gilchrist was definitely a tongue-in-cheek statement.
If, by the seemingly prevailing definition of vigilante, you consider the members of the Minuteman Project vigilantes, then members of local neighborhood watch programs are also vigilantes, by that same definition. Do you consider local neighborhood watch programs to be bad for our society?
There is one difference, neighborhood watch programs are usually sanctioned by the town and supported by the local police department. The Minutemen Project, however, is doing whatever they are doing against the wishes of the Border Patrol. - Rafanetx 00:07, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not "open source" if people's contributions are deliberately vandalized. About half of the information on the "Minuteman Project" has been stripped from this article in 5 minutes--information that took hours of many people's time to gather, verify, and post.
This points to the great vulnerability of the entire Wikipedia experiment. The danger is not in too much information, nor is it in biased information. Wikipedia's goal, as I understand, is that in hearing all sides and gathering all information, the truth will eventually be discernable. When information is maliciously deleted, Wikipedia is no longer open and can no longer achieve its goal--in fact, it turns into its opposite, a conduit for Newspeak.
Which is what this article has turned into.
I'll WP:AGF that it was simply poor editing that the 6 links at the end of the article (including one to a self-identified parody of the Minutemen) didn't contain a single one actually to the Minutemen's actual homepage. That being said, can someone tell me why there are links to
in the link section? Lawyer2b 02:58, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
"Vigilantes" are people who assume the function of law enforcement. Considering that everything the activists involved in the Minuteman Project did was well within their rights and by no means outside of the law, it hardly makes sense that they and the project should be considered an example of vigiliantism. Seems more like an anti-project bias to me.
I think the concern was with the accuracy of the term. George Bush is hardly noted for having accurate use of English, so I wouldn't be the least bit concerned with how he used the term. If the Minuteman Project activists weren't assuming function of law enforcement outside the bounds of their rights, it just doesn't make sense to label them as "vigilantes". People have tossed many terms around in application to either side of the situation, and my only concern is with the correctness in applying such terms. Is there anyone else who thinks the term "vigilante" is being used inaccurately? If not, then I suppose current majority opinion/consensus will stand. 6EQUJ5 14:54, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
An anon rm from the lead section Senior law enforcement officers state that they fear the project will lead to vigilante violence. I substituted in its place Local law enforcement has expressed concerns about the possibility of vigilante violence and confrontations between armed volunteers and authorities; US Border Patrol has complained that volunteers trip sensors, diverting official manpower to false alarms.
This is supported by this reference. John Reid 21:36, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
The offical name for this organization is the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps. I propose a move to that new name, with Minuteman Project redirecting there. Any opinion on this, folks? TheKaplan 04:53, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
This article badly needs to be cleaned up. The brief description of what the group is, what it does, why it does it, etc. is lost amid a sea of criticism. I'm going to try to flesh out the who what when where why and see if we can't tighten down the criticism section, which appears to be pretty inflated. The dual "supporters say," "critics say" format is just an invitation to the LPOV vs RPOV bloating that can destroy a good article that really needs to be NPOV. TheKaplan 04:57, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Why the axe Gov? Morton devonshire 01:19, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
When I first loaded this page the first sentence called this group a Radical Racist Group. The very first sentence. It seems to have changed in only a few minutes to something less biased. But it says at the top "Current Event", but this article CLEARLY needs to say, "Contested". BillyTFried
I've been watching this page for many months now. It's just become ridiculous. As Kaplan says above in his "clean up" remarks, the Pro-illegal-immigration vs Anti-illegal-immigration rhetoric bloats this "article" beyond any recognition of anything remotely approaching encyclopaedic. The article is full of unsourced statements, "citation needed" tags, and blatant soapboxing and POV pushing from both sides. While I respect the contributors' time and efforts to edit this "article", the basic tenents of WP require editors to do their research and properly source their statements. Accordingly, I intend to delete every unsourced statement (regardless of POV, left or right) in this article after a period of one week from today. This page is edited very frequently, one week is enough time for serious editors to cite their sources (if you put in here, you should easily be able to say where you got it from). It's pages like this that compromise the integrity of the whole of Wikipedia.
Of course, I welcome any comments, but I prefer that you spend that time and energy improving this article. WP:NOT, WP:V, No Original Research.-- WilliamThweatt 23:42, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
It seems that when i edit and preview the changes,some content goes to refernces links rather then where there supposed to be