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From the link: "Cunningham (1988) asserts that the symbol of a number enclosed by a circle was the official designation for asteroids until 1931 when the current nomenclature of the number, sometimes enclosed in parentheses in paper titles and indices, followed by the name without a separating comma was adopted" (Though he quibbles about the dating, he uses the parentheses-free version, and Cunningham himself is a citable source for no parentheses being a possible form, even if his timeline is disputed.)
Admittedly, that's a long article, and it's easy to miss parts. I've clarified in the cite. Adam Cuerden talk 12:16, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but that's instructions for using a search engine, not a guideline for all usages. See what you think of the current edit? Adam Cuerden talk 13:51, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
More evidence that the IAU itself seems to prefer the parentheses in those cases where it discusses official designations: [4], [5], [6], et al.. It seems that in casual use 4 Vesta is accepted, but the official designation is (4) Vesta. This should also impact the Wikipedia naming policy for minor planets. -- Jordi· ✆ 14:24, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Right. This source doesn't use them [7], but oddly enough, is a version of an MPC press release with the parentheses removed.
NASA uses both: no parentheses but With parentheses (Over the next couple of years we will certainly come to better understand the mysterious object known variously as Comet 95P/Chiron or minor planet (2060) Chiron.) but again no parentheses. Seems to be mostly without, though. The ESA may favour no parentheses, but I haven't been able to find large numbers of references.
Who knows? Adam Cuerden talk 14:38, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Think you mean "NASA: Uses # NAME, (#) NAME and NAME intermittently"? But, agreed, a mess. Best to list both options (and maybe NAME as well as an informal usage), think ye? Adam Cuerden talk 15:03, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Added it in. So, it appears we have an official version and a well-established variant. I'm slightly in favour of the variant for Wikipedia - it seems somewhat more established in popular articles (It was also used in New Scientist when announcing Pluto's gaining of one), and looks slightly better as an article title, in my opinion. Still, it may well be worth a vote, though it would be difficult to prepare: Adding the warning of vote to over 100,000 articles (Well, less, probably - don't think we have all of them. 10s of thousands, though.) would need bot assistance. Adam Cuerden talk 15:32, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Are my choices of examples to controversial? The intent was to show reasonably well-known objects with MPC Numbers, but I'm not sure if Pluto is too controversial - perhaps Eris would be better for now? Adam Cuerden talk 15:05, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Should it be "Minor Planet Number", "Minor planet number" or "MPC Number"? For that matter, "Number" or "Numbers"? Should all of these be redirects? Adam Cuerden talk 15:09, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
For that matter, should it be something else entirely? Adam Cuerden talk 15:04, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted them: There were several misunderstandings that muddled the article:
In short, I'm afraid that the changes didn't make much sense, even if they show places that need clarification, which I'll do. Adam Cuerden talk 17:50, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I apologise - it would seem you were not wrong, merely interpreting differently. However, since the number and provisional designation are used together, as seen here, but I cannot find any example of the number being used seperately from the provisional designation, I'm inclined to think that the MPC is being somewhat unclear, which is the source of the problem.
It does simply the explanation to use provisional name, since it allows us to explain the (number) provisional name phase more simply. However, if it's inaccurate, it has to change. What do you think? Adam Cuerden talk 06:52, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I've made a major change of focus, and may have moved into controversial territory, though I hope the last line of the opening mitigates this somewhat. Can we discuss changes here, howeevr, as if we hedge too much we could end up getting really confusing quickly. Adam Cuerden talk 18:21, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
This move might be a little controversial right now, what with the current discussions revolving around the relationship between MPC catalog numbers and "names". IMO it would have been better to discuss it first.
Anyway, one of the sentences in the intro:
...very specifically identifies something like "(1) Ceres" as a name. But from my reading of the AU's FAQ on minor planet naming, they are very careful to call that a "designation". They seem averse to calling it a name. It would seem to be evidence that they do not consider such things names. If there are any publications that do call "(1) Ceres" a name, they should be linked in the article, since the article as it is currently written contains unverified claims. -- Yath 19:39, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Any consensus on which? Adam Cuerden talk 06:47, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Here's the options so far, and a few minor variations. Might as well collect them all, give some time for other options to be added, and, as I don't think there's huge dislike for any of the options (save maybe Minor planet names), we'll probably come up with something acceptable to all. Adam Cuerden talk 12:14, 13 October 2006 (UTC) Options so far: (add more if you have any good ideas, and discuss below.
"Minor planet naming" seems a little awkward, so I provided alternative forms. "Minor planet designations and names" seems a little too long. "Minor planet names" may be inaccurate. All the rest seem fine. Still, don't want to be gaily transversing the name space with move after move, so best to discuss a bit. Any we can agree to remove? Adam Cuerden talk 12:14, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
If noone feels strongly either way, I'm choosing "Minor planet nomenclature". I'll give this a week to see if any objections come up. Adam Cuerden talk 17:52, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
From what I understand, Vesta is the "name", and (4) Vesta is the "designation". If so, could s.o. correct the article accordingly? We have people saying e.g. the Haumea article can't say "Haumea, formally (136108) Haumea", because the latter is not the name, but the link here does not support that. kwami ( talk) 02:36, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Can someone who understand Slovak and Czech confirm that cs:Označení planetek and sk:Označenie planétok are about the same topic? Then add them to interlanguage links of this article. Thanks! Damouns ( talk) 16:01, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
I've been using {{DEFAULTSORT:}} to alphabetize dwarf planets and other minor planets by their given name (if they have one), rather than by their minor planet number (MPN); because minor planets, at least the better known ones, are usually called by their given name only, e.g. “Vesta” rather than “ 4 Vesta”. Thus, {{DEFAULTSORT:Sedna}} or {{DEFAULTSORT:Salacia}} (see Sedna, Salacia). (Obviously, the articles “ Ceres (dwarf planet)”, “ Eris (dwarf planet)”, or “ Pluto”, because of the article title, need no DEFAULTSORT.) Also, the given name can begin with any of 26 characters (discounting accented vowels, etc.), whereas the MPN can only begin with one of 10 characters (assuming MPN < 100,000 means that the first character is 0). Thus, alphabetizing by given name results in more possible initial characters, preventing clutter in the alphabetic lists. Okay?-- Solomonfromfinland ( talk) 23:42, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
The article mentions TX 300, complete with the awkward subscript -- but what's it mean, where'd it come from? 300th object in 2002? Feldercarb ( talk) 16:31, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
I don't where this article points out that the prefix number is intended to be optional. Some media sources use the number to make it appear that they are of a scientific bent. Kortoso ( talk) 16:24, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
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![]() | It was proposed in this section that
Minor planet designation be
renamed and moved to
Minor-planet designation.
result: Links:
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This is template {{
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Minor planet designation → Minor-planet designation – Per WP:HYPHEN. Following our guidelines at the MOS, "minor planet designation" would be a minor designation of planets, "minor-planet designation" a designation of minor planets. People often claim COMMONNAME for things like this, but we generally allow the MOS to determine issues of formatting like hyphenation except when a phrase is fully lexicalized (like "high school"). That's not the case here, and in any case it appears that the hyphen agrees with IAU and MPC usage.
The MPC seldom bothers using the phrase; in context, they just refer to "temporary/permanent designations". The full phrase generally only appears when a contrast needs to be made, as here in the IAU/MPC naming guidelines, where they disambiguate minor-planet designation/number from comet designation/number:
Here, discussing those guidelines, and here, discussing Pluto, they have hyphenated "minor-planet designation", "minor-planet number" and "permanent-number designation". But sometimes they omit the hyphen (one instance of 'minor planet number' on the Pluto article); they're occasionally inconsistent with hyphens in other phrases as well. Such instances appear to be typos that just need a bit of copy-editing.
Again with the comet-designation contrast here, 'Accessing Comets with Minor-Planet Designations'. — kwami ( talk) 05:56, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
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From the link: "Cunningham (1988) asserts that the symbol of a number enclosed by a circle was the official designation for asteroids until 1931 when the current nomenclature of the number, sometimes enclosed in parentheses in paper titles and indices, followed by the name without a separating comma was adopted" (Though he quibbles about the dating, he uses the parentheses-free version, and Cunningham himself is a citable source for no parentheses being a possible form, even if his timeline is disputed.)
Admittedly, that's a long article, and it's easy to miss parts. I've clarified in the cite. Adam Cuerden talk 12:16, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but that's instructions for using a search engine, not a guideline for all usages. See what you think of the current edit? Adam Cuerden talk 13:51, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
More evidence that the IAU itself seems to prefer the parentheses in those cases where it discusses official designations: [4], [5], [6], et al.. It seems that in casual use 4 Vesta is accepted, but the official designation is (4) Vesta. This should also impact the Wikipedia naming policy for minor planets. -- Jordi· ✆ 14:24, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Right. This source doesn't use them [7], but oddly enough, is a version of an MPC press release with the parentheses removed.
NASA uses both: no parentheses but With parentheses (Over the next couple of years we will certainly come to better understand the mysterious object known variously as Comet 95P/Chiron or minor planet (2060) Chiron.) but again no parentheses. Seems to be mostly without, though. The ESA may favour no parentheses, but I haven't been able to find large numbers of references.
Who knows? Adam Cuerden talk 14:38, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Think you mean "NASA: Uses # NAME, (#) NAME and NAME intermittently"? But, agreed, a mess. Best to list both options (and maybe NAME as well as an informal usage), think ye? Adam Cuerden talk 15:03, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Added it in. So, it appears we have an official version and a well-established variant. I'm slightly in favour of the variant for Wikipedia - it seems somewhat more established in popular articles (It was also used in New Scientist when announcing Pluto's gaining of one), and looks slightly better as an article title, in my opinion. Still, it may well be worth a vote, though it would be difficult to prepare: Adding the warning of vote to over 100,000 articles (Well, less, probably - don't think we have all of them. 10s of thousands, though.) would need bot assistance. Adam Cuerden talk 15:32, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Are my choices of examples to controversial? The intent was to show reasonably well-known objects with MPC Numbers, but I'm not sure if Pluto is too controversial - perhaps Eris would be better for now? Adam Cuerden talk 15:05, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Should it be "Minor Planet Number", "Minor planet number" or "MPC Number"? For that matter, "Number" or "Numbers"? Should all of these be redirects? Adam Cuerden talk 15:09, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
For that matter, should it be something else entirely? Adam Cuerden talk 15:04, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted them: There were several misunderstandings that muddled the article:
In short, I'm afraid that the changes didn't make much sense, even if they show places that need clarification, which I'll do. Adam Cuerden talk 17:50, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I apologise - it would seem you were not wrong, merely interpreting differently. However, since the number and provisional designation are used together, as seen here, but I cannot find any example of the number being used seperately from the provisional designation, I'm inclined to think that the MPC is being somewhat unclear, which is the source of the problem.
It does simply the explanation to use provisional name, since it allows us to explain the (number) provisional name phase more simply. However, if it's inaccurate, it has to change. What do you think? Adam Cuerden talk 06:52, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I've made a major change of focus, and may have moved into controversial territory, though I hope the last line of the opening mitigates this somewhat. Can we discuss changes here, howeevr, as if we hedge too much we could end up getting really confusing quickly. Adam Cuerden talk 18:21, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
This move might be a little controversial right now, what with the current discussions revolving around the relationship between MPC catalog numbers and "names". IMO it would have been better to discuss it first.
Anyway, one of the sentences in the intro:
...very specifically identifies something like "(1) Ceres" as a name. But from my reading of the AU's FAQ on minor planet naming, they are very careful to call that a "designation". They seem averse to calling it a name. It would seem to be evidence that they do not consider such things names. If there are any publications that do call "(1) Ceres" a name, they should be linked in the article, since the article as it is currently written contains unverified claims. -- Yath 19:39, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Any consensus on which? Adam Cuerden talk 06:47, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Here's the options so far, and a few minor variations. Might as well collect them all, give some time for other options to be added, and, as I don't think there's huge dislike for any of the options (save maybe Minor planet names), we'll probably come up with something acceptable to all. Adam Cuerden talk 12:14, 13 October 2006 (UTC) Options so far: (add more if you have any good ideas, and discuss below.
"Minor planet naming" seems a little awkward, so I provided alternative forms. "Minor planet designations and names" seems a little too long. "Minor planet names" may be inaccurate. All the rest seem fine. Still, don't want to be gaily transversing the name space with move after move, so best to discuss a bit. Any we can agree to remove? Adam Cuerden talk 12:14, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
If noone feels strongly either way, I'm choosing "Minor planet nomenclature". I'll give this a week to see if any objections come up. Adam Cuerden talk 17:52, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
From what I understand, Vesta is the "name", and (4) Vesta is the "designation". If so, could s.o. correct the article accordingly? We have people saying e.g. the Haumea article can't say "Haumea, formally (136108) Haumea", because the latter is not the name, but the link here does not support that. kwami ( talk) 02:36, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Can someone who understand Slovak and Czech confirm that cs:Označení planetek and sk:Označenie planétok are about the same topic? Then add them to interlanguage links of this article. Thanks! Damouns ( talk) 16:01, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
I've been using {{DEFAULTSORT:}} to alphabetize dwarf planets and other minor planets by their given name (if they have one), rather than by their minor planet number (MPN); because minor planets, at least the better known ones, are usually called by their given name only, e.g. “Vesta” rather than “ 4 Vesta”. Thus, {{DEFAULTSORT:Sedna}} or {{DEFAULTSORT:Salacia}} (see Sedna, Salacia). (Obviously, the articles “ Ceres (dwarf planet)”, “ Eris (dwarf planet)”, or “ Pluto”, because of the article title, need no DEFAULTSORT.) Also, the given name can begin with any of 26 characters (discounting accented vowels, etc.), whereas the MPN can only begin with one of 10 characters (assuming MPN < 100,000 means that the first character is 0). Thus, alphabetizing by given name results in more possible initial characters, preventing clutter in the alphabetic lists. Okay?-- Solomonfromfinland ( talk) 23:42, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
The article mentions TX 300, complete with the awkward subscript -- but what's it mean, where'd it come from? 300th object in 2002? Feldercarb ( talk) 16:31, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
I don't where this article points out that the prefix number is intended to be optional. Some media sources use the number to make it appear that they are of a scientific bent. Kortoso ( talk) 16:24, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
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![]() | It was proposed in this section that
Minor planet designation be
renamed and moved to
Minor-planet designation.
result: Links:
current log •
target log
This is template {{
subst:Requested move/end}} |
Minor planet designation → Minor-planet designation – Per WP:HYPHEN. Following our guidelines at the MOS, "minor planet designation" would be a minor designation of planets, "minor-planet designation" a designation of minor planets. People often claim COMMONNAME for things like this, but we generally allow the MOS to determine issues of formatting like hyphenation except when a phrase is fully lexicalized (like "high school"). That's not the case here, and in any case it appears that the hyphen agrees with IAU and MPC usage.
The MPC seldom bothers using the phrase; in context, they just refer to "temporary/permanent designations". The full phrase generally only appears when a contrast needs to be made, as here in the IAU/MPC naming guidelines, where they disambiguate minor-planet designation/number from comet designation/number:
Here, discussing those guidelines, and here, discussing Pluto, they have hyphenated "minor-planet designation", "minor-planet number" and "permanent-number designation". But sometimes they omit the hyphen (one instance of 'minor planet number' on the Pluto article); they're occasionally inconsistent with hyphens in other phrases as well. Such instances appear to be typos that just need a bit of copy-editing.
Again with the comet-designation contrast here, 'Accessing Comets with Minor-Planet Designations'. — kwami ( talk) 05:56, 21 September 2021 (UTC)