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In the Vulcanology section, the lead sentence would be better served, and more understandable to lay readers who are not familiar with the types of volcanic eruptions, if it read similarly as: ‘The Minoan event, a Plinian type eruption . . . ‘ Dtss2017 ( talk) 13:09, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
Definitely sounds like Atlantis to me. Most scholars against it are probably Anglosaxons, who want their Atlanticist fiction to be true. Meroitte ( talk) 12:31, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
While I respect a person’s choice to believe or disbelieve in the supernatural, why is the story of Exodus referenced in this article? There was no ‘exodus.’ Never happened, does not have a scientific or factual basis, and is a fairytale. If, and I use that word very loosely, there is ever any scientific and factual historic evidence found to the contrary, then, and only then, should a paragraph regarding the exodus be added to this article. It should be removed. Dtss2017 ( talk) 13:30, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
Supposedly early 1500s BC. Should wait for some official news before adding to article I guess.
Ploversegg ( talk) 01:19, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
I tried adding text to the article to indicate that the dating of the eruption using carbon dating may be effected by C14 deficient carbon emitted by the volcano itself. With a half life of over 5,000 years C14 decays at a rate of about 1% every hundred years, so if 1% of the carbon in the olive branch tested (reference in the article and found covered in volcanic lava), was actually gas emissions from the volcano, that branch would date about 100 years older than it actually is. This would explain the 100 year discrepancy in the dating methods.
proposed addition follows - I have someone hounding me that goes around reverting everything I post. If you guys find it a valuable addition, then please add the following or similar language to the article.
One source of C14 deficient carbon would be the volcano itself. C14 is created by cosmic ray bombardment in the upper atmosphere. Carbon inside the earth does not take part in this process and is C14 deficient compared to carbon in the atmosphere. If the volcano emitted carbon gas for extended periods of time, some of this gas would have been absorbed by surrounding plant life, making them C14 deficient compared to plants far from the volcano. Carbon dating would therefore date plants near the volcano as older then those further away. Because the half life of C14 is over 5,000 years, if 1% of the carbon in nearby plant life was sourced form carbon emitted by the volcano, it would be dated about 100 years older per C14 dating. 71.174.128.111 ( talk) 17:35, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
The article already points out that any Carbon 14 (C14) deficient carbon absorbed by plants would make them date older per C14 dating because they would start off as deficient in C14.
It is common knowledge that C14 is created in the atmosphere by cosmic ray bombardment, and that carbon inside the earth is deficient. It should be obvious that carbon released from the earth by volcanoes and then absorbed by plants near the volcanoes would make C14 dating of those plants off. The amount that the dating is off would depend on how much deficient carbon was emitted by the volcanoes and then absorbed by nearby plants.
Since the half life of C14 is over 5,000 years, if nearby plants absorbed 1% C14 deficient carbon originating from the volcano, a 1% starting deficiency would equal a 1% age difference, where 1% is about 100 years.
In case you have not seen any - here is a picture of a volcano emitting gas - a good chunk of which is carbon. Also common knowledge.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earthtalks-volcanoes-or-humans/
Per wikipedia guidelines common knowledge does not require citations. C14 dating of materials found near volcanoes is already widely recognized as problematic - Just because it is not common knowledge to YOU, does not mean it is not common knowledge for others. Do you have any background in Physics? Volcanoes? History? Carbon dating? Anyone on those fields would immediately recognize the issue, if he (or she) had bothered to use the 2 brain cells not yet dead from the poison of ego!
https://phys.org/news/2018-10-explosive-lies-volcanoes-age.html
The effect of volcanic carbon on eruption ages
Our study re-analysed the large series of radiocarbon dates for the Taupo eruption and found that the oldest dates were closest to the volcano vent. The dates were progressively younger the farther away they were.
This unusual geographic pattern has been documented very close (i.e. less than a kilometre) to volcanic vents before, but never on the scale of tens of kilometres. Two wiggle match ages, taken from the same forest, located about 30km from the caldera lake, were among the oldest dates from the series of dates.
This conceptual image shows how gas from the triggering event, decades before the eruption, works its way into the groundwater system and is eventually incorporated in the wood of the trees that we date. 71.174.128.111 ( talk) 19:43, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
pnas.org: Volcanic ash, victims, and tsunami debris from the Late Bronze Age Thera eruption discovered at Çeşme-Bağlararası (Turkey) (PNAS January 4, 2022 119 (1) e2114213118)
I hope someone with sound knowledge than me can integrate this in the lemma. thanks in advance -- Präziser ( talk) 16:33, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
@
Bender235: The Chinese Bamboo Annals report of unusual yellow skies and summer frost at the beginning of the Shang dynasty, which may have been a consequence of volcanic winter (similar to 1816, the Year Without a Summer, after the 1815 eruption of Mount Tambora).
isn’t a sentence. My solution was to tie it in to the previous sentence, so that may have been described
also applies to the Chinese Bamboo Annals
. If you don’t like this, then you should reword it so that it is grammatical.
Sweet6970 (
talk)
08:03, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
The Chinese Bamboo Annals report of unusual yellow skies and summer frost at the beginning of the Shang dynastybut there’s no verb applicable to this. On reflection, a better way to fix this would be to delete ‘of’ and change ‘report’ (which in your version is a noun) to ‘reported’, which would then be the verb which applies to ‘The Chinese Bamboo Annals’ The wording would then be:
The Chinese Bamboo Annals reported unusual yellow skies and summer frost at the beginning of the Shang dynasty, which may have been a consequence of volcanic winter (similar to 1816, the Year Without a Summer, after the 1815 eruption of Mount Tambora).Sweet6970 ( talk) 20:47, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
@ Dudley Miles: You reverted the wide range of recent datings with the argument that they "treat [only] one study in a highly contested area as definitive." Actually it's the consequence of three latest studies, by different academic teams, that already reached somekind of consensus. They are:
1) Sohoglu et al (2021) who state that "[w]hile these ages do not negate either chronology, it does limit the age to no older than 1612 BCE[...]"
2) Pearson et al (2022) which rules out the possibility of 1628 BCE eruption and shows Thera eruption was between 1611 and 1538 BCE, and
3) Manning (2022) who shows it occurred between 1609 and 1560 BCE (95.4% probability).
So, integrating the three references, range is c. 1612 to 1538 BCE. On the other hand, just pointing out 1600 BCE is a very narrow view. Carlos Eduardo Aramayo B. ( talk) 14:58, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
@ Dudley Miles: Well, as far as I understand how the engine works, what happenned was that two editors were sending their messages at the same time, mine was published but yours not. Of course I did not delete your comment as you then did to mine. Carlos Eduardo Aramayo B. ( talk) 21:10, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
@ Dudley Miles: Regarding 'first reversion' to the article's box, I did not reverted it, I only added the word "Sometime" at the beginning of the stable version. Take a look at it. It was a clarification, not reversion. Carlos Eduardo Aramayo B. ( talk) 21:17, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
Dear contributors, a SINGLE, in addition meanwhile 10 year old, paper MUST NOT be cited as "is now believed"!! HJHolm ( talk) 16:24, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
Though it may look like the section is completely changed, I mostly just reorganized it. Most radiocarbon dates are just from the same referenced papers in previous edits, except I put them in more readable table format and put them under consistent criterion 2σ if original papers reported. Previous edits lacked coherency and was seemingly a pile of random papers, also lacked contexts on why 2020s radiocarbon so much younger than radiocarbon performed in 1990s or 2000s.
So I added two paragraphs to explain why radiocarbon dates in 2018 shifted from 17th-century BC (e.g. 1627-1600 BC in olive tree dating) to include 16th-century BC (e.g. 1609-1560 BC in Manning 2022). This is because Pearson team modified calibration curve in 2018. Radiocarbon age section is now very comprehensive and coherent, at least to me.
I'm less familiar with archaeological side of debate but previous edits almost completely lacked it. Previous edits just repetitively claimed two things : (1) eruption placed in LM-IA/LH-I in archaeological context; (2) archaeologists believe 1500BCE; without citing the middle step of why (1) implies (2). So I added a paragraph to explain that this entirely has to do with Aegean correlation with Egyptian chronology.
It must be noted that date of LM-IA/LH-I itself provides no insight into date of eruption because LM-IA/LH-I itself has been dated to 1600BCE by radiocarbon and 1500BCE by seriation correlation with Egyptian chronology. That is, the date of LM-IA/LH-I itself is actually part of Minoan date debate. Everyone, from all sides, agrees that the eruption took place in LM-IA/LH-I
No original research in my edits, as you can trace every sentence to a slightly different phrasing in the reference immediately after the end of the sentence
@ Ploversegg As I'm less familiar with archaeological side of debate, please review my edits, especially the archaeological section.
Previous edits did include a sentence about Linear A inscriptions ("the inscriptions are dated to Middle Minoan III/Late Minoan I, which is currently placed at circa 1600 BCE") but the reference ( https://doi.org/10.1515%2Fkadm.1999.38.1-2.12) provided says nothing about the age of inscriptions "the Linear A inscriptions has been the subject of much debate for more than half a century. The earliest date offered is c. 1630-20 B.C./ a later proposal is c. 1535-1525 B.C.7 There is approximately a century between these dates, but both fall inside LMIA" (p. 15 in ref). Thats why I removed it.
As far as I understand, Linear A is just another evidence that eruption occurred in LM-IA/LH-I which could be either 1600BCE (radiocarbon) or 1500BCE (seriation correlation with Egyptian chronology). Aleral Wei ( talk) 09:34, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
The date in the infobox was changed from c.1600BCE to c.1562BCE. As far as I am aware, the date of the eruption is still disputed, and to refer to 1562BCE in the infobox looks too precise, so I am changing this back to c.1600BCE. What is the best way to refer to the date of the eruption in the infobox? Sweet6970 ( talk) 12:05, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
We have the text "yellow fog, a dim sun, then three suns, frost in July, famine, and the withering of all five cereals", and a year of 1618 given (which fits very nicely in Manning's IntCal20 dates). The reference given is "Texts, Storms, and the Thera Eruption" in J. of NE Studies. The problem is, that quote doesn't appear in that article. The article does mention the Chinese record in a footnote, but it is not specific as to date, nor the book the underlying Bamboo Annals are in —- whether translated or not. The best solution would be to find the true source of that quote, and cite it. I was unable to find it after several searches; whereas a less good solution would be to cite the footnote in the article actually referenced, as it gives an approximate date. Also, finding the exact quote in some translation of the Bamboo Annals would be a nice adjunct to the citation already present, as a fallback. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2002:3204:5E35:0:851F:E5D1:1A1F:609D ( talk) 20:54, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
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In the Vulcanology section, the lead sentence would be better served, and more understandable to lay readers who are not familiar with the types of volcanic eruptions, if it read similarly as: ‘The Minoan event, a Plinian type eruption . . . ‘ Dtss2017 ( talk) 13:09, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
Definitely sounds like Atlantis to me. Most scholars against it are probably Anglosaxons, who want their Atlanticist fiction to be true. Meroitte ( talk) 12:31, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
While I respect a person’s choice to believe or disbelieve in the supernatural, why is the story of Exodus referenced in this article? There was no ‘exodus.’ Never happened, does not have a scientific or factual basis, and is a fairytale. If, and I use that word very loosely, there is ever any scientific and factual historic evidence found to the contrary, then, and only then, should a paragraph regarding the exodus be added to this article. It should be removed. Dtss2017 ( talk) 13:30, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
Supposedly early 1500s BC. Should wait for some official news before adding to article I guess.
Ploversegg ( talk) 01:19, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
I tried adding text to the article to indicate that the dating of the eruption using carbon dating may be effected by C14 deficient carbon emitted by the volcano itself. With a half life of over 5,000 years C14 decays at a rate of about 1% every hundred years, so if 1% of the carbon in the olive branch tested (reference in the article and found covered in volcanic lava), was actually gas emissions from the volcano, that branch would date about 100 years older than it actually is. This would explain the 100 year discrepancy in the dating methods.
proposed addition follows - I have someone hounding me that goes around reverting everything I post. If you guys find it a valuable addition, then please add the following or similar language to the article.
One source of C14 deficient carbon would be the volcano itself. C14 is created by cosmic ray bombardment in the upper atmosphere. Carbon inside the earth does not take part in this process and is C14 deficient compared to carbon in the atmosphere. If the volcano emitted carbon gas for extended periods of time, some of this gas would have been absorbed by surrounding plant life, making them C14 deficient compared to plants far from the volcano. Carbon dating would therefore date plants near the volcano as older then those further away. Because the half life of C14 is over 5,000 years, if 1% of the carbon in nearby plant life was sourced form carbon emitted by the volcano, it would be dated about 100 years older per C14 dating. 71.174.128.111 ( talk) 17:35, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
The article already points out that any Carbon 14 (C14) deficient carbon absorbed by plants would make them date older per C14 dating because they would start off as deficient in C14.
It is common knowledge that C14 is created in the atmosphere by cosmic ray bombardment, and that carbon inside the earth is deficient. It should be obvious that carbon released from the earth by volcanoes and then absorbed by plants near the volcanoes would make C14 dating of those plants off. The amount that the dating is off would depend on how much deficient carbon was emitted by the volcanoes and then absorbed by nearby plants.
Since the half life of C14 is over 5,000 years, if nearby plants absorbed 1% C14 deficient carbon originating from the volcano, a 1% starting deficiency would equal a 1% age difference, where 1% is about 100 years.
In case you have not seen any - here is a picture of a volcano emitting gas - a good chunk of which is carbon. Also common knowledge.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earthtalks-volcanoes-or-humans/
Per wikipedia guidelines common knowledge does not require citations. C14 dating of materials found near volcanoes is already widely recognized as problematic - Just because it is not common knowledge to YOU, does not mean it is not common knowledge for others. Do you have any background in Physics? Volcanoes? History? Carbon dating? Anyone on those fields would immediately recognize the issue, if he (or she) had bothered to use the 2 brain cells not yet dead from the poison of ego!
https://phys.org/news/2018-10-explosive-lies-volcanoes-age.html
The effect of volcanic carbon on eruption ages
Our study re-analysed the large series of radiocarbon dates for the Taupo eruption and found that the oldest dates were closest to the volcano vent. The dates were progressively younger the farther away they were.
This unusual geographic pattern has been documented very close (i.e. less than a kilometre) to volcanic vents before, but never on the scale of tens of kilometres. Two wiggle match ages, taken from the same forest, located about 30km from the caldera lake, were among the oldest dates from the series of dates.
This conceptual image shows how gas from the triggering event, decades before the eruption, works its way into the groundwater system and is eventually incorporated in the wood of the trees that we date. 71.174.128.111 ( talk) 19:43, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
pnas.org: Volcanic ash, victims, and tsunami debris from the Late Bronze Age Thera eruption discovered at Çeşme-Bağlararası (Turkey) (PNAS January 4, 2022 119 (1) e2114213118)
I hope someone with sound knowledge than me can integrate this in the lemma. thanks in advance -- Präziser ( talk) 16:33, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
@
Bender235: The Chinese Bamboo Annals report of unusual yellow skies and summer frost at the beginning of the Shang dynasty, which may have been a consequence of volcanic winter (similar to 1816, the Year Without a Summer, after the 1815 eruption of Mount Tambora).
isn’t a sentence. My solution was to tie it in to the previous sentence, so that may have been described
also applies to the Chinese Bamboo Annals
. If you don’t like this, then you should reword it so that it is grammatical.
Sweet6970 (
talk)
08:03, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
The Chinese Bamboo Annals report of unusual yellow skies and summer frost at the beginning of the Shang dynastybut there’s no verb applicable to this. On reflection, a better way to fix this would be to delete ‘of’ and change ‘report’ (which in your version is a noun) to ‘reported’, which would then be the verb which applies to ‘The Chinese Bamboo Annals’ The wording would then be:
The Chinese Bamboo Annals reported unusual yellow skies and summer frost at the beginning of the Shang dynasty, which may have been a consequence of volcanic winter (similar to 1816, the Year Without a Summer, after the 1815 eruption of Mount Tambora).Sweet6970 ( talk) 20:47, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
@ Dudley Miles: You reverted the wide range of recent datings with the argument that they "treat [only] one study in a highly contested area as definitive." Actually it's the consequence of three latest studies, by different academic teams, that already reached somekind of consensus. They are:
1) Sohoglu et al (2021) who state that "[w]hile these ages do not negate either chronology, it does limit the age to no older than 1612 BCE[...]"
2) Pearson et al (2022) which rules out the possibility of 1628 BCE eruption and shows Thera eruption was between 1611 and 1538 BCE, and
3) Manning (2022) who shows it occurred between 1609 and 1560 BCE (95.4% probability).
So, integrating the three references, range is c. 1612 to 1538 BCE. On the other hand, just pointing out 1600 BCE is a very narrow view. Carlos Eduardo Aramayo B. ( talk) 14:58, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
@ Dudley Miles: Well, as far as I understand how the engine works, what happenned was that two editors were sending their messages at the same time, mine was published but yours not. Of course I did not delete your comment as you then did to mine. Carlos Eduardo Aramayo B. ( talk) 21:10, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
@ Dudley Miles: Regarding 'first reversion' to the article's box, I did not reverted it, I only added the word "Sometime" at the beginning of the stable version. Take a look at it. It was a clarification, not reversion. Carlos Eduardo Aramayo B. ( talk) 21:17, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
Dear contributors, a SINGLE, in addition meanwhile 10 year old, paper MUST NOT be cited as "is now believed"!! HJHolm ( talk) 16:24, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
Though it may look like the section is completely changed, I mostly just reorganized it. Most radiocarbon dates are just from the same referenced papers in previous edits, except I put them in more readable table format and put them under consistent criterion 2σ if original papers reported. Previous edits lacked coherency and was seemingly a pile of random papers, also lacked contexts on why 2020s radiocarbon so much younger than radiocarbon performed in 1990s or 2000s.
So I added two paragraphs to explain why radiocarbon dates in 2018 shifted from 17th-century BC (e.g. 1627-1600 BC in olive tree dating) to include 16th-century BC (e.g. 1609-1560 BC in Manning 2022). This is because Pearson team modified calibration curve in 2018. Radiocarbon age section is now very comprehensive and coherent, at least to me.
I'm less familiar with archaeological side of debate but previous edits almost completely lacked it. Previous edits just repetitively claimed two things : (1) eruption placed in LM-IA/LH-I in archaeological context; (2) archaeologists believe 1500BCE; without citing the middle step of why (1) implies (2). So I added a paragraph to explain that this entirely has to do with Aegean correlation with Egyptian chronology.
It must be noted that date of LM-IA/LH-I itself provides no insight into date of eruption because LM-IA/LH-I itself has been dated to 1600BCE by radiocarbon and 1500BCE by seriation correlation with Egyptian chronology. That is, the date of LM-IA/LH-I itself is actually part of Minoan date debate. Everyone, from all sides, agrees that the eruption took place in LM-IA/LH-I
No original research in my edits, as you can trace every sentence to a slightly different phrasing in the reference immediately after the end of the sentence
@ Ploversegg As I'm less familiar with archaeological side of debate, please review my edits, especially the archaeological section.
Previous edits did include a sentence about Linear A inscriptions ("the inscriptions are dated to Middle Minoan III/Late Minoan I, which is currently placed at circa 1600 BCE") but the reference ( https://doi.org/10.1515%2Fkadm.1999.38.1-2.12) provided says nothing about the age of inscriptions "the Linear A inscriptions has been the subject of much debate for more than half a century. The earliest date offered is c. 1630-20 B.C./ a later proposal is c. 1535-1525 B.C.7 There is approximately a century between these dates, but both fall inside LMIA" (p. 15 in ref). Thats why I removed it.
As far as I understand, Linear A is just another evidence that eruption occurred in LM-IA/LH-I which could be either 1600BCE (radiocarbon) or 1500BCE (seriation correlation with Egyptian chronology). Aleral Wei ( talk) 09:34, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
The date in the infobox was changed from c.1600BCE to c.1562BCE. As far as I am aware, the date of the eruption is still disputed, and to refer to 1562BCE in the infobox looks too precise, so I am changing this back to c.1600BCE. What is the best way to refer to the date of the eruption in the infobox? Sweet6970 ( talk) 12:05, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
We have the text "yellow fog, a dim sun, then three suns, frost in July, famine, and the withering of all five cereals", and a year of 1618 given (which fits very nicely in Manning's IntCal20 dates). The reference given is "Texts, Storms, and the Thera Eruption" in J. of NE Studies. The problem is, that quote doesn't appear in that article. The article does mention the Chinese record in a footnote, but it is not specific as to date, nor the book the underlying Bamboo Annals are in —- whether translated or not. The best solution would be to find the true source of that quote, and cite it. I was unable to find it after several searches; whereas a less good solution would be to cite the footnote in the article actually referenced, as it gives an approximate date. Also, finding the exact quote in some translation of the Bamboo Annals would be a nice adjunct to the citation already present, as a fallback. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2002:3204:5E35:0:851F:E5D1:1A1F:609D ( talk) 20:54, 9 July 2023 (UTC)