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I hope we can avoid this pretentious term, which carries very little actual information—aside from "we-know-Latin-unlike-you"— and that little misleading, in its inference, by analogy with Pax Romana and Pax Britannica, of an enforced peace— an assertion for which we have no warrant. I also thought we might point out that the "main exports" so boldly listed are quite simply those that survive best in archaeological sites. Those ceramics for one thing were unlikely to have been exported empty.-- Wetman 06:34, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
I think an separate and short article on Pax Minoica would be useful - to add to all the other 'Pax'. However, I am not expert enough to initiate one.
Politis
09:57, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
There's a very useful website on the archaeology of the Bronze Age Aegean at Dartmouth College, created by Jeremy Rutter. The site is comprehensive, with a wealth of bibliography. It deals with Minoans, Mycenaeans, and more, and could be very helpful in the improvement of Wikipedia. Akhilleus 21:48, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
I tried to organize the sprawling tidbits of information into a coherent ToC, cutting some repetitions. The "Pax Minoica" section is still an unwikified wasteland and should be compressed into something readable. The article is still not great overall, each section will need a lot of work. There appears to be some "Gimbutasian" fixation with goddesses and matriarchy equalling peace. These aspects should be discussed honestly in one dedicated section and not pervade an article that deals, after all, with archaeology. What we need are less speculation about the Minoan mindset and more exact description of archaeological finds and configurations. dab (ᛏ) 18:51, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
I strongly agree. Novium 09:44, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
The first paragraph reads like it is about Crete only. You could add something about the volcanism on the Minoan outpost of Santorini island (I'm not sure that it's important enough to go here though). Daphne A 11:50, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
This article has some serious problems with non-neutral language, in addition to what amounts to edit wars. Its also contradictory, and instead of just listing the information, it goes into basically fights between overarching interpretations. Novium 18:13, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I do not believe that it should be used, especially with the caption "a minoan fisherman" as the issue of whether thera is minoan is highly debated. Actually, more than that. I don't think many people think it is merely a minoan outpost. Wasn't this discussed just up the page from here? And given that there are many actual(ignoring the reconstruction issue) minoan paintings, from knossos etc, why don't we use one of those? http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Knossos Novium 19:23, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
All disputed theories are now presented with their sources and arranged in a good order. I suggest it´s time to finally remove the NPOV och Contradict tags? -- JFK 09:14, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I've applied the dreaded {{fact}} template in a few spots, although it would be justifiable to paste it all over the article.
There are a couple of different problems with citations and the bibliography:
--Akhilleus ( talk) 15:41, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the section on the "Minoan column" belongs in this article. It would be appropriate in a Minoan architecture article (which really should be created at some point), but I don't think this column form had much influence on subsequent architecture. If I'm wrong about this, I'd appreciate a correction. However, if the column is actually this notable, there ought to be a better citation for this than a textbook. --Akhilleus ( talk) 15:49, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
"Most Greek columns have a greater diameter at the top than the bottom, creating an illusion of greater height; the Minoan column is the opposite, having a greater diameter at the top." - should this say "Greek columns have a greater diameter at the bottom than the top"?
What evidence do we have that these paintings are actually "Minoan" - as opposed to Minoan-influenced Cycladic? Are they really the best representations of purely "Minoan" art? The lead picture in the article is entitled "Portrait of a Minoan fisherman from Akrotiri" - would our fisherman really have considered himself a Keftios or whatever the Minoans called themselves? I don't neccesarily object to using these images, but the captions should be changed and we should use something from Crete for the main photo.-- Jpbrenna 16:43, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
PLease please please can we address this issue? It makes me wince every time the page loads :-P. Novium 05:06, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
now, I know there was some contention over whether the eruption was the cause of the demise of minoan crete, due to a question over when exactly it occured, but this is the first time I can remember ever seeing someone argue that the different date meant the civilization ended earlier, instead of it not being the cause. Novium 06:22, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
The date of the eruption is extremely controversial, and the current discussion is technically incorrect. The proper place to discuss the date of the eruption is in the article Thera eruption. The present article makes mention of that discussion (section "Chronology and history"). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.103.145.176 ( talk • contribs) .
Scholars at the Third Thera Conference made the Thera eruption the marker for the end of LMIA. Is that still the consensus? If so, can we change "during LMIA" to "marks the end of LMIA?" -
Pryaltonian
17:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I've added/changed some of the pictures, just to give it a try, if these aren't popular, we can either change them back or try to find new ones. Novium 21:11, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
the dolphins? I have no objection to them. I just thought as a first photo that the new one was more visually striking. It's a long article, find somewhere connected and stick it in :-p Novium 07:47, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't like the current intro photo. I think there are many better images that could be used. An off-angle photo of a framed piece hanging on a wall isn't a very good photo to display prominately. Not to mention it hard to discern what the image is actually depictating. While a very interesting fresco, I don't this is the place for it.-- Bkwillwm 05:26, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Have deleted crete and greek history category as you can access these through minoan civilization category. Enlil Ninlil 01:11, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Enlil Ninlil 03:34, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I would like to modify this section: "Some would argue that these are all aspects of a single goddess. According to Marinatos, "That a powerful goddess of nature was the chief deity of the Minoans was recognized already by Evans and has never been seriously questioned."" I would cut out the quote, because practically everything evans said *has* been seriously questioned, and it doesn't really add much. It's not stating a fact, or an interpretation, so to speak. That is, the first statement is trying to send the message that it was a monotheistic thing, and the quote is to back that up, althogh the quote doesn't show anything other than Marinatos praising evans. It gives no actual support to the one goddess thing or the mother goddess thing.
As to the first statement, I'd like to suggest something like, "It is occasionally suggested that..." but then go into how all of this is mainly supposition, because the evidence for the goddesses is mostly based off the fact they have different headgear, etc, which doesn't tell you much, so it's really impossible to say either way. What do you think? Novium 20:32, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Novium 07:33, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/1999/1999-10-03.html
It comes from the Bryn Mawr Classical Review. It's a review by Mary Lefkowitz of the book Ancient Goddesses: the Myths and the Evidence (collaboration of 12 writers, with Lucy Goodison and Christine Morris listed in the bibliographical notice). At the very least it could provide further reading; by the tone of the review, the book seems to address Gimbutas' works.
Sorry. I let my history-student distrust of prehistory spill out. Truly there is a place for these discussions in wikipedia... I just get frustrated with the lack of any real starting place for interpretation. For example, your mention of external politics reminded me of Thera (minoan colony? cycladic city influenced by crete? whatever? )...I am not the best person for this. I keep returning to this article like a fool to his folly not out of love, but out of sheer frustration. Novium 05:43, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Minoan colony? The way I visualize it, the Minoans and "Etrusco-Cypriots" were part of a single people that traditionally lived scattered across Crete, the Aegean islands, Greece and Western Turkey. So before Thera went krakatoa, it would have just been a part of their domain. I wouldn't think of it as a formal "colony" like in a Magna Graecia sense. More than anything, people remember Thera because half of the island blew miles out to sea in seconds! Then that colossal tsunami and the smell of rotting fish far inland probably was noticeable :) I just noticed this site: http://www.therafoundation.org/. Bon apetit. -- Glengordon01 06:11, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Wait a minute... I think you have been to that site already afterall: http://www.therafoundation.org/articles/religionmyths/minoancycladicsyncretism . Haha, I'm such a tard. Cool. I added that site to the article's external links section. I'm shocked it wasn't on there yet.
Well, it is a theory. But therein lies the problem. I'm sure we could nitpick it away... except that that works for all the theories, because there is not enough information. This is why I so dislike the subject :-P Novium 18:19, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Don't give up hope. Just accept that absolutes can never be attained. We will never know EVERYTHING about something, but the whole zest for life is in trying to reach for personal perfection. The other option is the "passive negativity" called relativism, followed by nihilism and then in the extreme stages of this unfortunate societal disease: cultural suicide. Blech. So chin up; fight the relativism! All ideas are not created equal, especially on the topic of this "Minoan colony" business.
We can dismiss this "theory" right away. Minoan is simply a cover term to describe a "cultural complex" or "collection of city-states", popularized first by Sir Arthur Evans after the mythic "king" Minos (nb. Read the article again and ponder for a minute). There is no such attested king, hence we describe Minos justly as "mythic" :)
Minoan does not mean "a centralized Minoan kingdom" or "singular Minoan people". There are only "Minoan peoples" in the plural sense. This is what the known facts are telling us. When Egyptians write of "Keftiu" they are referring to a cultural region, not a kingdom. So without a kingdom, the term " colony" as normally defined is misapplied here. (I apologize for excessive italics and bold but I really need to smash these populist memes somehow, hehe.)
Thus, Thera cannot have been a "Minoan colony" per se without there being a single "ruler of Minoa". No such ruler. At best, we could only conjecture that Thera is a colony of some other city-state, like say, Knossos or something. I also question the assertion in this website that "Thera" is even a Pre-Greek word. It seems to me to have all the linguistic hallmarks of a truly Greek name since Proto-Greek *gwh regularly becomes Classical Greek th in native words (eg: *gwhermos "heat" > thermos). I hope that helps relieve your shackles of despair and confusion :) -- Glengordon01 10:28, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
ok. I still believe thera is more cycladic. :) Novium 05:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Definition of terms. It seems to me the discussion is really semantic. What's a colony? Why couldn't it be the same civilization extended to Thera? We don't refer to Hawaii as a colony of the United States or Martha's Vinyard as a colony of Massachusetts. Anyway the relationship was not at all clear. Maybe Knossos was a colony of Thera! Too much obsession with colonies. The Minoan/Cycladic part of the debate is semantic also. According to the original definition of Minoan and Cycladic, which was based on geography, Thera has to be Cycladic. But, its sameness with Minoan is obvious. If it were a single artifact we would say it was an export. But it isn't, and there is no evidence of any colonial-style exportation. The problem is in the words not in the circumstances. Same culture, two islands. Well, this argument is going on forever because it is only a rational or verbal distinction not a real one. Since we started with Minoan I got no problem with Minoan for both simultaneously with Middle Cycladic, Late Cycladic, etc. for Thera. We can talk about the Minoan civilization of the Cyclades in MM and MC times. Dave 22:59, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't think there is much merit in the atlantis section. At least, not enough to be worthy of its own section. Maybe a sentence or two... but i really think that if it *has* to be mentioned, it would be perhaps better off under the thera eruption article. what do you think? Novium 23:57, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't think you need to hold the article up for that baloney. No sources for those statements are going to appear. They look like a legacy from some early form of the article before anyone who knew anything about it started in. I'd say, just comment those out of the article and remove the "needs sources" template. Dave 01:08, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I would hate to see this good information hacked out for length. It's too valuable to the interested public. One of the problems is that there is a need for more Minoan Crete articles, so there is no place to which to transfer the information. I would see this as an ongoing process of writing articles and getting the info from here to there. For example, and article should be done on "Minoan religion", which would clear out the information on religion and sacrifice. You wouldn't want to dispense with that info, as the subject is a large one and of great interest. That would be a great paper for someone to do. One article I plan to do soon if no one else does is "Minoan frescoes". There are enough frescoes in Commons now to support it. Minoan art is pretty well known and popular, being elaborate and beautiful as well as having historical significance. For example, there's the "Harvester vase". So I imagine it might be a while before this article can be brought down to size safely without destroying its utility to the interested public. Dave 01:08, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm not a scholar, so I have no idea what's going on in the "chronology and history" section when we abruptly introduce what seems to be a third chronological system with the terms "LHI," "LHIIB," and "LHIIIB." I am taking a wild guess (from context) that they might refer to pottery styles from the mainland, but I really have no idea. Perhaps someone with some knowledge in this area can clean up this situation (either remove or define the terms are the two major choices that occur to me).-- Inonit 17:40, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Crete was originally supposed to be polity without a military in the midst of the sea. Not only that but its lily hands were above human sacrifice and painted vase motifs that reached for the sublime. Maybe a superior people lived there.
Unfortunately certain nagging questions persisted. When the whole Aegean around it was wrapped in frequent warfare and armies trampled back and forth while fleets went around suppressing the trade of competitors, how is it that this fine and noble civilization escaped invasion and destruction? Why only one invasion, one destruction? An undefended state ought to be burned down just about every day. Not only that but of all the states that did business with Crete there were none at all that were not heavily into human sacrifice. How did Crete become so noble? Was there an unsung Cretan Abraham and Isaac?
Eventually the sacrificers were discovered caught in the act by an earthquake and after that other grisly evidence began to turn up. Too bad. Some of those sublime pots must have caught human blood pouring off the altars. Maybe the priest-king in the fresco was leading, not a cow, but ... well you fill it in. Now we read of a great fleet depicted in a fresco of Thera quite a bit before the Greeks took Knossos. Not only that but we see soldiers, spears, dead bodies and boar's tusks helmets. I always thought they were Mycenaean myself. Maybe not. Maybe Crete was a warlike state but so successful that it did not need palace fortifications. Walls are for isolated and insecure states. Maybe, as has been suggested, Minoan fleets ruled the seas.
What I am saying is, I think it is time to bring up the idea of a Cretan state defended by armed fleets with marines. There is no reason to exclude the idea. One fresco is not a great proof but it does open up the possibility, where before it was closed. People don't want to accept the idea. Another suggestion is that the Mycenaeans were out there in fleets at that time. Well if they were, why did they not take over Knossos earlier? Something ought to be said about these possibilities but we seem to be out of space. Maybe it will have wait until something else gets moved, but if sacrifice is in there so should be armed soldiers with boars' tusks helmets. Dave 23:30, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
http://www.therafoundation.org/articles/economysociety/theislesofcretetheminoanthalassocracyrevisited —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.77.216.252 ( talk • contribs) .
I've made this change to the introductory paragraph. It seems someone disagreed with it before, but that change made that whole part of the paragraph sound illogical. Robotman 1974 12:30, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Novium 15:52, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
The "cradle" quote (which is unattributed) should probably go, but it could be replaced by a sentence saying that the Minoans had some effect on Mycenaean culture, and so eventually influenced archaic and classical Greece in some hard to define way. --Akhilleus ( talk) 16:23, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Allright. I've seen it stated here just as I've seen it stated everywhere else (popular books. scholarly books. scholarly articles.) The men are painted in red, the women painted in white, like the egyptians. But no one ever cites any evidence for this, or explains why this assumption is made. I have discovered an article that talks about it, but it's in a book that I can't get a hold of. An article by the same author, which I can get through JSTOR, argues that sexual characteristics are only shown in certain contexts, and with figures in certain dress. This would explain the androgynous character of many of the figures- which in my opinion, only clouds the issue. The closest I've got to anything shedding light on this issue is something I came across when I was working on an essay on evans. I read Macgillvray's book on him- I disagree with many of his interpretations on evans, but I absolutely adored how much he actually dug up on evans, and, even better, presented in big fat direct quotations throughout his book. Ok, so anyway, in the book he had excerpts from Evan's journal. So, according to him, and the journal, Evans found the cupbearer fresco in April of 1900. Evans immediately dubbed it to be a portrait of Ariande, and remarked on the reddish-skin tone. So at that point, the whole red/male thing hadn't been codified. And, in fact, the early sketches and photographs of it look far more feminine or at least more androgynous than the reconstruction does. Sometime between those early days and the reconstruction of the fresco, the red/white thing became orthodox. But why? Does ANYONE know why we interpret the paintings this way? I actually am desperately curious to know; not even the resident expert on Crete at my university could tell me. Novium 17:23, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Why does this article make no mention of the Phoenicians?
My understanding is that the Minoan civilization was the result of a mixing of Phoenician and Native Cretan peoples. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tommymctom ( talk • contribs).
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I hope we can avoid this pretentious term, which carries very little actual information—aside from "we-know-Latin-unlike-you"— and that little misleading, in its inference, by analogy with Pax Romana and Pax Britannica, of an enforced peace— an assertion for which we have no warrant. I also thought we might point out that the "main exports" so boldly listed are quite simply those that survive best in archaeological sites. Those ceramics for one thing were unlikely to have been exported empty.-- Wetman 06:34, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
I think an separate and short article on Pax Minoica would be useful - to add to all the other 'Pax'. However, I am not expert enough to initiate one.
Politis
09:57, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
There's a very useful website on the archaeology of the Bronze Age Aegean at Dartmouth College, created by Jeremy Rutter. The site is comprehensive, with a wealth of bibliography. It deals with Minoans, Mycenaeans, and more, and could be very helpful in the improvement of Wikipedia. Akhilleus 21:48, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
I tried to organize the sprawling tidbits of information into a coherent ToC, cutting some repetitions. The "Pax Minoica" section is still an unwikified wasteland and should be compressed into something readable. The article is still not great overall, each section will need a lot of work. There appears to be some "Gimbutasian" fixation with goddesses and matriarchy equalling peace. These aspects should be discussed honestly in one dedicated section and not pervade an article that deals, after all, with archaeology. What we need are less speculation about the Minoan mindset and more exact description of archaeological finds and configurations. dab (ᛏ) 18:51, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
I strongly agree. Novium 09:44, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
The first paragraph reads like it is about Crete only. You could add something about the volcanism on the Minoan outpost of Santorini island (I'm not sure that it's important enough to go here though). Daphne A 11:50, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
This article has some serious problems with non-neutral language, in addition to what amounts to edit wars. Its also contradictory, and instead of just listing the information, it goes into basically fights between overarching interpretations. Novium 18:13, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I do not believe that it should be used, especially with the caption "a minoan fisherman" as the issue of whether thera is minoan is highly debated. Actually, more than that. I don't think many people think it is merely a minoan outpost. Wasn't this discussed just up the page from here? And given that there are many actual(ignoring the reconstruction issue) minoan paintings, from knossos etc, why don't we use one of those? http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Knossos Novium 19:23, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
All disputed theories are now presented with their sources and arranged in a good order. I suggest it´s time to finally remove the NPOV och Contradict tags? -- JFK 09:14, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I've applied the dreaded {{fact}} template in a few spots, although it would be justifiable to paste it all over the article.
There are a couple of different problems with citations and the bibliography:
--Akhilleus ( talk) 15:41, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the section on the "Minoan column" belongs in this article. It would be appropriate in a Minoan architecture article (which really should be created at some point), but I don't think this column form had much influence on subsequent architecture. If I'm wrong about this, I'd appreciate a correction. However, if the column is actually this notable, there ought to be a better citation for this than a textbook. --Akhilleus ( talk) 15:49, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
"Most Greek columns have a greater diameter at the top than the bottom, creating an illusion of greater height; the Minoan column is the opposite, having a greater diameter at the top." - should this say "Greek columns have a greater diameter at the bottom than the top"?
What evidence do we have that these paintings are actually "Minoan" - as opposed to Minoan-influenced Cycladic? Are they really the best representations of purely "Minoan" art? The lead picture in the article is entitled "Portrait of a Minoan fisherman from Akrotiri" - would our fisherman really have considered himself a Keftios or whatever the Minoans called themselves? I don't neccesarily object to using these images, but the captions should be changed and we should use something from Crete for the main photo.-- Jpbrenna 16:43, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
PLease please please can we address this issue? It makes me wince every time the page loads :-P. Novium 05:06, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
now, I know there was some contention over whether the eruption was the cause of the demise of minoan crete, due to a question over when exactly it occured, but this is the first time I can remember ever seeing someone argue that the different date meant the civilization ended earlier, instead of it not being the cause. Novium 06:22, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
The date of the eruption is extremely controversial, and the current discussion is technically incorrect. The proper place to discuss the date of the eruption is in the article Thera eruption. The present article makes mention of that discussion (section "Chronology and history"). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.103.145.176 ( talk • contribs) .
Scholars at the Third Thera Conference made the Thera eruption the marker for the end of LMIA. Is that still the consensus? If so, can we change "during LMIA" to "marks the end of LMIA?" -
Pryaltonian
17:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I've added/changed some of the pictures, just to give it a try, if these aren't popular, we can either change them back or try to find new ones. Novium 21:11, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
the dolphins? I have no objection to them. I just thought as a first photo that the new one was more visually striking. It's a long article, find somewhere connected and stick it in :-p Novium 07:47, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't like the current intro photo. I think there are many better images that could be used. An off-angle photo of a framed piece hanging on a wall isn't a very good photo to display prominately. Not to mention it hard to discern what the image is actually depictating. While a very interesting fresco, I don't this is the place for it.-- Bkwillwm 05:26, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Have deleted crete and greek history category as you can access these through minoan civilization category. Enlil Ninlil 01:11, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Enlil Ninlil 03:34, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I would like to modify this section: "Some would argue that these are all aspects of a single goddess. According to Marinatos, "That a powerful goddess of nature was the chief deity of the Minoans was recognized already by Evans and has never been seriously questioned."" I would cut out the quote, because practically everything evans said *has* been seriously questioned, and it doesn't really add much. It's not stating a fact, or an interpretation, so to speak. That is, the first statement is trying to send the message that it was a monotheistic thing, and the quote is to back that up, althogh the quote doesn't show anything other than Marinatos praising evans. It gives no actual support to the one goddess thing or the mother goddess thing.
As to the first statement, I'd like to suggest something like, "It is occasionally suggested that..." but then go into how all of this is mainly supposition, because the evidence for the goddesses is mostly based off the fact they have different headgear, etc, which doesn't tell you much, so it's really impossible to say either way. What do you think? Novium 20:32, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Novium 07:33, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/1999/1999-10-03.html
It comes from the Bryn Mawr Classical Review. It's a review by Mary Lefkowitz of the book Ancient Goddesses: the Myths and the Evidence (collaboration of 12 writers, with Lucy Goodison and Christine Morris listed in the bibliographical notice). At the very least it could provide further reading; by the tone of the review, the book seems to address Gimbutas' works.
Sorry. I let my history-student distrust of prehistory spill out. Truly there is a place for these discussions in wikipedia... I just get frustrated with the lack of any real starting place for interpretation. For example, your mention of external politics reminded me of Thera (minoan colony? cycladic city influenced by crete? whatever? )...I am not the best person for this. I keep returning to this article like a fool to his folly not out of love, but out of sheer frustration. Novium 05:43, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Minoan colony? The way I visualize it, the Minoans and "Etrusco-Cypriots" were part of a single people that traditionally lived scattered across Crete, the Aegean islands, Greece and Western Turkey. So before Thera went krakatoa, it would have just been a part of their domain. I wouldn't think of it as a formal "colony" like in a Magna Graecia sense. More than anything, people remember Thera because half of the island blew miles out to sea in seconds! Then that colossal tsunami and the smell of rotting fish far inland probably was noticeable :) I just noticed this site: http://www.therafoundation.org/. Bon apetit. -- Glengordon01 06:11, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Wait a minute... I think you have been to that site already afterall: http://www.therafoundation.org/articles/religionmyths/minoancycladicsyncretism . Haha, I'm such a tard. Cool. I added that site to the article's external links section. I'm shocked it wasn't on there yet.
Well, it is a theory. But therein lies the problem. I'm sure we could nitpick it away... except that that works for all the theories, because there is not enough information. This is why I so dislike the subject :-P Novium 18:19, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Don't give up hope. Just accept that absolutes can never be attained. We will never know EVERYTHING about something, but the whole zest for life is in trying to reach for personal perfection. The other option is the "passive negativity" called relativism, followed by nihilism and then in the extreme stages of this unfortunate societal disease: cultural suicide. Blech. So chin up; fight the relativism! All ideas are not created equal, especially on the topic of this "Minoan colony" business.
We can dismiss this "theory" right away. Minoan is simply a cover term to describe a "cultural complex" or "collection of city-states", popularized first by Sir Arthur Evans after the mythic "king" Minos (nb. Read the article again and ponder for a minute). There is no such attested king, hence we describe Minos justly as "mythic" :)
Minoan does not mean "a centralized Minoan kingdom" or "singular Minoan people". There are only "Minoan peoples" in the plural sense. This is what the known facts are telling us. When Egyptians write of "Keftiu" they are referring to a cultural region, not a kingdom. So without a kingdom, the term " colony" as normally defined is misapplied here. (I apologize for excessive italics and bold but I really need to smash these populist memes somehow, hehe.)
Thus, Thera cannot have been a "Minoan colony" per se without there being a single "ruler of Minoa". No such ruler. At best, we could only conjecture that Thera is a colony of some other city-state, like say, Knossos or something. I also question the assertion in this website that "Thera" is even a Pre-Greek word. It seems to me to have all the linguistic hallmarks of a truly Greek name since Proto-Greek *gwh regularly becomes Classical Greek th in native words (eg: *gwhermos "heat" > thermos). I hope that helps relieve your shackles of despair and confusion :) -- Glengordon01 10:28, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
ok. I still believe thera is more cycladic. :) Novium 05:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Definition of terms. It seems to me the discussion is really semantic. What's a colony? Why couldn't it be the same civilization extended to Thera? We don't refer to Hawaii as a colony of the United States or Martha's Vinyard as a colony of Massachusetts. Anyway the relationship was not at all clear. Maybe Knossos was a colony of Thera! Too much obsession with colonies. The Minoan/Cycladic part of the debate is semantic also. According to the original definition of Minoan and Cycladic, which was based on geography, Thera has to be Cycladic. But, its sameness with Minoan is obvious. If it were a single artifact we would say it was an export. But it isn't, and there is no evidence of any colonial-style exportation. The problem is in the words not in the circumstances. Same culture, two islands. Well, this argument is going on forever because it is only a rational or verbal distinction not a real one. Since we started with Minoan I got no problem with Minoan for both simultaneously with Middle Cycladic, Late Cycladic, etc. for Thera. We can talk about the Minoan civilization of the Cyclades in MM and MC times. Dave 22:59, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't think there is much merit in the atlantis section. At least, not enough to be worthy of its own section. Maybe a sentence or two... but i really think that if it *has* to be mentioned, it would be perhaps better off under the thera eruption article. what do you think? Novium 23:57, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't think you need to hold the article up for that baloney. No sources for those statements are going to appear. They look like a legacy from some early form of the article before anyone who knew anything about it started in. I'd say, just comment those out of the article and remove the "needs sources" template. Dave 01:08, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I would hate to see this good information hacked out for length. It's too valuable to the interested public. One of the problems is that there is a need for more Minoan Crete articles, so there is no place to which to transfer the information. I would see this as an ongoing process of writing articles and getting the info from here to there. For example, and article should be done on "Minoan religion", which would clear out the information on religion and sacrifice. You wouldn't want to dispense with that info, as the subject is a large one and of great interest. That would be a great paper for someone to do. One article I plan to do soon if no one else does is "Minoan frescoes". There are enough frescoes in Commons now to support it. Minoan art is pretty well known and popular, being elaborate and beautiful as well as having historical significance. For example, there's the "Harvester vase". So I imagine it might be a while before this article can be brought down to size safely without destroying its utility to the interested public. Dave 01:08, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm not a scholar, so I have no idea what's going on in the "chronology and history" section when we abruptly introduce what seems to be a third chronological system with the terms "LHI," "LHIIB," and "LHIIIB." I am taking a wild guess (from context) that they might refer to pottery styles from the mainland, but I really have no idea. Perhaps someone with some knowledge in this area can clean up this situation (either remove or define the terms are the two major choices that occur to me).-- Inonit 17:40, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Crete was originally supposed to be polity without a military in the midst of the sea. Not only that but its lily hands were above human sacrifice and painted vase motifs that reached for the sublime. Maybe a superior people lived there.
Unfortunately certain nagging questions persisted. When the whole Aegean around it was wrapped in frequent warfare and armies trampled back and forth while fleets went around suppressing the trade of competitors, how is it that this fine and noble civilization escaped invasion and destruction? Why only one invasion, one destruction? An undefended state ought to be burned down just about every day. Not only that but of all the states that did business with Crete there were none at all that were not heavily into human sacrifice. How did Crete become so noble? Was there an unsung Cretan Abraham and Isaac?
Eventually the sacrificers were discovered caught in the act by an earthquake and after that other grisly evidence began to turn up. Too bad. Some of those sublime pots must have caught human blood pouring off the altars. Maybe the priest-king in the fresco was leading, not a cow, but ... well you fill it in. Now we read of a great fleet depicted in a fresco of Thera quite a bit before the Greeks took Knossos. Not only that but we see soldiers, spears, dead bodies and boar's tusks helmets. I always thought they were Mycenaean myself. Maybe not. Maybe Crete was a warlike state but so successful that it did not need palace fortifications. Walls are for isolated and insecure states. Maybe, as has been suggested, Minoan fleets ruled the seas.
What I am saying is, I think it is time to bring up the idea of a Cretan state defended by armed fleets with marines. There is no reason to exclude the idea. One fresco is not a great proof but it does open up the possibility, where before it was closed. People don't want to accept the idea. Another suggestion is that the Mycenaeans were out there in fleets at that time. Well if they were, why did they not take over Knossos earlier? Something ought to be said about these possibilities but we seem to be out of space. Maybe it will have wait until something else gets moved, but if sacrifice is in there so should be armed soldiers with boars' tusks helmets. Dave 23:30, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
http://www.therafoundation.org/articles/economysociety/theislesofcretetheminoanthalassocracyrevisited —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.77.216.252 ( talk • contribs) .
I've made this change to the introductory paragraph. It seems someone disagreed with it before, but that change made that whole part of the paragraph sound illogical. Robotman 1974 12:30, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Novium 15:52, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
The "cradle" quote (which is unattributed) should probably go, but it could be replaced by a sentence saying that the Minoans had some effect on Mycenaean culture, and so eventually influenced archaic and classical Greece in some hard to define way. --Akhilleus ( talk) 16:23, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Allright. I've seen it stated here just as I've seen it stated everywhere else (popular books. scholarly books. scholarly articles.) The men are painted in red, the women painted in white, like the egyptians. But no one ever cites any evidence for this, or explains why this assumption is made. I have discovered an article that talks about it, but it's in a book that I can't get a hold of. An article by the same author, which I can get through JSTOR, argues that sexual characteristics are only shown in certain contexts, and with figures in certain dress. This would explain the androgynous character of many of the figures- which in my opinion, only clouds the issue. The closest I've got to anything shedding light on this issue is something I came across when I was working on an essay on evans. I read Macgillvray's book on him- I disagree with many of his interpretations on evans, but I absolutely adored how much he actually dug up on evans, and, even better, presented in big fat direct quotations throughout his book. Ok, so anyway, in the book he had excerpts from Evan's journal. So, according to him, and the journal, Evans found the cupbearer fresco in April of 1900. Evans immediately dubbed it to be a portrait of Ariande, and remarked on the reddish-skin tone. So at that point, the whole red/male thing hadn't been codified. And, in fact, the early sketches and photographs of it look far more feminine or at least more androgynous than the reconstruction does. Sometime between those early days and the reconstruction of the fresco, the red/white thing became orthodox. But why? Does ANYONE know why we interpret the paintings this way? I actually am desperately curious to know; not even the resident expert on Crete at my university could tell me. Novium 17:23, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Why does this article make no mention of the Phoenicians?
My understanding is that the Minoan civilization was the result of a mixing of Phoenician and Native Cretan peoples. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tommymctom ( talk • contribs).