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![]() | On 6 June 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to Miniature model (wargaming). The result of the discussion was not moved. |
Different uses of figures have different scaling conventions, but it's very much not the case that all measure to the top of the head. In particular, the 25/28/32mm (and probably 30mm) figures generally measure to the eyes, not the top of the head. So a 28mm figure is closer to 1/56, not the listed 1/64. (And depending on how heroically proportioned, 1/50 might be better).
Which means this article is actively wrong for a purpose many people might reference it, and that should probably be fixed.
(As a historical matter, I believe Chainmail used 25mm figures, and beget D+D, which certainly used 25mm figures as their officially licensed size in the 80s. Games Workshop started as a D+D miniature producer before creating Warhammer, and initially used the 25mm size. They popularized 'heroic' proportions, and then later 28mm size (if they didn't outright originate it) as their scale creeped upward (and later popularized if not originated 32mm). GW explicitly measures to the eyes, and many, if not most, modern miniatures in these sizes followed GW in how they scaled their miniatures.) -- 2600:1702:1CA0:9680:1DF8:9157:C3F1:4601 ( talk) 07:32, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
I have concerns about the line which read "due to the (unfounded) concerns about the safety of lead" and replaced it with "due to concerns about lead poisoning." I am extremely interested in why the original author said "unfounded" though--what safety measures, if any, do hobbyists take? Is there reason to believe that a good undercoat, a couple of layers of paint, and a sealant provide adequate protection? If some hobbyists believe that, I think it belongs in the article. But this is speculation on my part--I'm not a miniatures hobbyist, and I most definitely am not a doctor or someone else qualified to talk about lead poisoning. Dave Farquhar 14:37, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm concerned about the text reading - "Arguably the best sculptors the wargames industry has ever known." about Alan and Michael Perry. While I myself am a big fan of their sculpting, the statement seems overblown and out of place in this context, and has little to back it up. jaq 15:49, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
I just noticed that for some reason the link for 1listsculpting was removed. Comment was "rv - link not significant and likely linkspam". I'm not certain why this is since it's a list which is specialised in sculpting the miniatures which are discussed here. As it is, about one third or more of the sculptors listed in this article are a member of that list. I've got the feeling the editor missed this and will return the link. Having just typed the article on sculpting may make the situation clearer. If not, please contact me.
I intend to add an article on sculpting miniatures to wikipedia but will have to wait till after my holidays.
By the way, I'll be seeing the Perry twins in two days. They should find the discussion amusing. :)
Bye, Ming-Hua Kao Moderator 1listsculpting
I'm a roleplayer myself, but I have say: It's incredibly bizarre that this entry's lede only defines miniatures in regards to roleplaying. Gaming-scale miniatures originated in wargaming, and the two hobbies (wargaming and miniature collecting) are still strongly connected. This entry gives such short shrift to wargaming, it's almost roleplaying-chauvinism!
This entry needs some balance, and some better historical context. As it stands now, I'd be embarassed to show this entry to my wargamer friends. Michael Bauser 01:19, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Sooner or later, some attention will need to be given to the growing hobby of collecting miniature figures adapted from anime and manga, a phenomenon that seems to have developed under the influences of both D&D modelling and US-styled comic book "action figures." This entry completely ignores such miniatures, and in fact is presently so wargame-centered that it does not lend itself to any reasonable revision that would be more inclusive. Any suggestions? Bustter 20:53, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
The external links section is getting out-of-hand. Note that Wikipedia isn't a links directory and that the external links policy guides us to select a few high-quality links instead of many. The manufacturers in particular need to go—if any of them are notable, they ought to have their own article that can be linked from the "See also" section, and the rest aren't needed (per "not a links directory").
Thoughts? Am I completely off-base? — Saxifrage ✎ 20:14, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I just saw that this company is listed in the article. Personally I don't think it fits the scope of the article since those figures are not made as gaming miniatures even though they can be used for it. My suggestion would be to remove the link from the main body of the article and move it to related articles. Your thoughts? minimaker 18:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
WH40K related articles are going to be open to soapbox attempts ( WP:SOAP) due to the commercial nature of modelling. I've recently noted the Dark Angels conversion picture Image:Dark_angel_captain.jpg used on 3 pages by the author and I think we should be wary of advertising. Why should a 40K model represent "miniature gaming" and why should a private coversion be used in a 40K section? I realise it is a thin line and 1 model or company may well be used as imagery (and it is a nice image) but why one over another and why not more representative images? Being posted by the painter is fairly blatant too.
Geordie michael 10:12, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Surely this is more like 1:900? At the stated 1:600, a 2mm tall model would correspond to a rather dwarfish 1.2m in real life! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.8.12.78 ( talk) 19:15, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
This comment could form the basis of an article in its own right; I wouldn't know where to look for verification though. Michael.j.lacey ( talk) 09:02, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
Miniature figure scales are commonly expressed as the height of a six-foot (183 cm) figure.
This is not right.
The height represents average TALLEST male human population in Norway and Sudan. In fact the scale for figures is calculated on the average male European population in 1938 I believe which was the figure available at the time the RAF proposed the 1/72 scale as the recognition scale for its block models. The average at the time was deemed to be 177cm, which also seems to be exaggerated to me by about 5 centimeters.
In any case, based on the American average for convenience of remembering deemed to be 177.6cm, the following scales were at some time used in wargaming:
197mm 1/9
120mm 1/14.8
111mm 1/16
90mm 1/19.7
53.8 mm 1/33
54mm 1/32.8
55.5mm 1/32
50.7mm 1/35
48mm 1/37
41.3mm O scale 1/43
37mm 1/48 US O Gauge 1/4 inch to 1ft
35.5mm 1/50 architectural models
30mm 1/59.2
28 mm 1/63 “heroic” 25mm
27.75mm 1/64 S gauge
25 mm 1/71
24.6mm 1/72 RAF scale
23.3mm 1/76
23 mm 1/77
20.4mm HO scale 1/87
20 mm 1/89
18.5 mm 1/96 traditional shipyard scale
18 mm 1/99
17.7mm 1/100
16.4mm 1/108 traditional shipyard scale
15 mm 1/118
14.8mm 1/120 TT scale
12.3mm 1/144
11 mm 1/160 N gage
10 mm 1/178
9.25mm micro scale 1/192 buildings and traditional shipyard scale
9 mm 1/197
8.9mm 1/200
8 mm 1/222
7 mm 1/254
6.2 mm 1/285 US Army
6 mm 1/296
5.92 mm 1/300 NATO scale
4mm 1/444
3 mm 1/600 Naval scale
2.5 mm 1/700 Naval scale
2 mm 1/888
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrg3105 ( talk • contribs) 11:17, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I think Miniature conversion should be merged here. The content in that article entirely relates to gaming miniatures, it does not establish notability that is independent from this topic, and neither article is large enough to justify a split for reasons of WP:SIZE. - Verdatum ( talk) 16:15, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
This has been discussed extensively here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Miniature_conversion#Notability.3F (the general consensus appears to be to not merge) Mathmo Talk 07:25, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
I changed the wording in the scales section to note the 28mm's connection to 1:64 (when measured to top of head).
I haven't been involved with this page over time, so I'll just limit myself to the following proposals, and let the old timers yea or nay them.
Split the 25/28s - I suggest that 28mm figures be split off from 25s and given their own row in the SCALES table. "True" 25s don't seem to be made much these days, and many people seem to have stopped referring to "large" or "heroic" 25s, and simply call the big figures 28 mm. Might as well acknowledge the new order of things.
Significant digits - In science and engineering the concept of significant digits is important to accurate measurement. You can't come up with meaningful answers in ten-thousandths when your input data was rounded to tenths, or when your equipment can't measure better than hundredths. In the final answer, the excess places to the right of the decimal are meaningless and should be dropped, because they convey a sense of precision which in fact is false.
Measurements of gaming figures are absurdly imprecise - no one agrees whether the measurement is to the top of the head or to the eyes, whether to include bases, or boot-heels or bouffant hairdos, or whether the figure is to represent an idealized six-foot man or the average modern 5'10" Euro-dude or the average 5'4" half-starved peasant of the historical period, etc. etc. So working out scale ratios (in the SCALES table) to thousandths not only violates the significant digits principle, but seems, well, a bit laughable. I propose you drop everything to the right of the decimal point. "1:52.251" just goes to the idealized 1:52. "1:121.92" rounds to the conventionalized 1:120. Likewise, round to the nearest half-mm when figuring the size of a scale foot. Mention somewhere that the ratios and feet are approximate and conventionalized.
54 mm listing notes - 54 mm used to be a standard size for dime-store plastic Army men, but in the era of the Dollar Store, my impression is that the baggie-figures are shrinking as manufacturers fudge down plastic soldiers and cowboys smaller and smaller to save material. You may want to check out the theory first, but a correction of the note might be in order.
Thanks for all the work that has been put into this page.
D.Helber ( talk) 19:33, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
I removed the "notable" list from the article for one very simple reason: establishing who is "notable" is an impossible proposition. It can only ever be POV. Other articles which had similar lists are also removing them for the same reason. Please do not re-instate it without discussion here first. — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 02:18, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( non-admin closure) Safari Scribe Edits! Talk! 10:54, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
Miniature model (gaming) → Miniature model (wargaming) – Obviously this article is about wargaming, I think we should rename it so that the word in parentheses says "wargaming" instead of "gaming". 2600:1700:1960:F100:AD53:CAC0:D213:C644 ( talk) 06:52, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | On 6 June 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to Miniature model (wargaming). The result of the discussion was not moved. |
Different uses of figures have different scaling conventions, but it's very much not the case that all measure to the top of the head. In particular, the 25/28/32mm (and probably 30mm) figures generally measure to the eyes, not the top of the head. So a 28mm figure is closer to 1/56, not the listed 1/64. (And depending on how heroically proportioned, 1/50 might be better).
Which means this article is actively wrong for a purpose many people might reference it, and that should probably be fixed.
(As a historical matter, I believe Chainmail used 25mm figures, and beget D+D, which certainly used 25mm figures as their officially licensed size in the 80s. Games Workshop started as a D+D miniature producer before creating Warhammer, and initially used the 25mm size. They popularized 'heroic' proportions, and then later 28mm size (if they didn't outright originate it) as their scale creeped upward (and later popularized if not originated 32mm). GW explicitly measures to the eyes, and many, if not most, modern miniatures in these sizes followed GW in how they scaled their miniatures.) -- 2600:1702:1CA0:9680:1DF8:9157:C3F1:4601 ( talk) 07:32, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
I have concerns about the line which read "due to the (unfounded) concerns about the safety of lead" and replaced it with "due to concerns about lead poisoning." I am extremely interested in why the original author said "unfounded" though--what safety measures, if any, do hobbyists take? Is there reason to believe that a good undercoat, a couple of layers of paint, and a sealant provide adequate protection? If some hobbyists believe that, I think it belongs in the article. But this is speculation on my part--I'm not a miniatures hobbyist, and I most definitely am not a doctor or someone else qualified to talk about lead poisoning. Dave Farquhar 14:37, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm concerned about the text reading - "Arguably the best sculptors the wargames industry has ever known." about Alan and Michael Perry. While I myself am a big fan of their sculpting, the statement seems overblown and out of place in this context, and has little to back it up. jaq 15:49, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
I just noticed that for some reason the link for 1listsculpting was removed. Comment was "rv - link not significant and likely linkspam". I'm not certain why this is since it's a list which is specialised in sculpting the miniatures which are discussed here. As it is, about one third or more of the sculptors listed in this article are a member of that list. I've got the feeling the editor missed this and will return the link. Having just typed the article on sculpting may make the situation clearer. If not, please contact me.
I intend to add an article on sculpting miniatures to wikipedia but will have to wait till after my holidays.
By the way, I'll be seeing the Perry twins in two days. They should find the discussion amusing. :)
Bye, Ming-Hua Kao Moderator 1listsculpting
I'm a roleplayer myself, but I have say: It's incredibly bizarre that this entry's lede only defines miniatures in regards to roleplaying. Gaming-scale miniatures originated in wargaming, and the two hobbies (wargaming and miniature collecting) are still strongly connected. This entry gives such short shrift to wargaming, it's almost roleplaying-chauvinism!
This entry needs some balance, and some better historical context. As it stands now, I'd be embarassed to show this entry to my wargamer friends. Michael Bauser 01:19, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Sooner or later, some attention will need to be given to the growing hobby of collecting miniature figures adapted from anime and manga, a phenomenon that seems to have developed under the influences of both D&D modelling and US-styled comic book "action figures." This entry completely ignores such miniatures, and in fact is presently so wargame-centered that it does not lend itself to any reasonable revision that would be more inclusive. Any suggestions? Bustter 20:53, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
The external links section is getting out-of-hand. Note that Wikipedia isn't a links directory and that the external links policy guides us to select a few high-quality links instead of many. The manufacturers in particular need to go—if any of them are notable, they ought to have their own article that can be linked from the "See also" section, and the rest aren't needed (per "not a links directory").
Thoughts? Am I completely off-base? — Saxifrage ✎ 20:14, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I just saw that this company is listed in the article. Personally I don't think it fits the scope of the article since those figures are not made as gaming miniatures even though they can be used for it. My suggestion would be to remove the link from the main body of the article and move it to related articles. Your thoughts? minimaker 18:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
WH40K related articles are going to be open to soapbox attempts ( WP:SOAP) due to the commercial nature of modelling. I've recently noted the Dark Angels conversion picture Image:Dark_angel_captain.jpg used on 3 pages by the author and I think we should be wary of advertising. Why should a 40K model represent "miniature gaming" and why should a private coversion be used in a 40K section? I realise it is a thin line and 1 model or company may well be used as imagery (and it is a nice image) but why one over another and why not more representative images? Being posted by the painter is fairly blatant too.
Geordie michael 10:12, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Surely this is more like 1:900? At the stated 1:600, a 2mm tall model would correspond to a rather dwarfish 1.2m in real life! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.8.12.78 ( talk) 19:15, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
This comment could form the basis of an article in its own right; I wouldn't know where to look for verification though. Michael.j.lacey ( talk) 09:02, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
Miniature figure scales are commonly expressed as the height of a six-foot (183 cm) figure.
This is not right.
The height represents average TALLEST male human population in Norway and Sudan. In fact the scale for figures is calculated on the average male European population in 1938 I believe which was the figure available at the time the RAF proposed the 1/72 scale as the recognition scale for its block models. The average at the time was deemed to be 177cm, which also seems to be exaggerated to me by about 5 centimeters.
In any case, based on the American average for convenience of remembering deemed to be 177.6cm, the following scales were at some time used in wargaming:
197mm 1/9
120mm 1/14.8
111mm 1/16
90mm 1/19.7
53.8 mm 1/33
54mm 1/32.8
55.5mm 1/32
50.7mm 1/35
48mm 1/37
41.3mm O scale 1/43
37mm 1/48 US O Gauge 1/4 inch to 1ft
35.5mm 1/50 architectural models
30mm 1/59.2
28 mm 1/63 “heroic” 25mm
27.75mm 1/64 S gauge
25 mm 1/71
24.6mm 1/72 RAF scale
23.3mm 1/76
23 mm 1/77
20.4mm HO scale 1/87
20 mm 1/89
18.5 mm 1/96 traditional shipyard scale
18 mm 1/99
17.7mm 1/100
16.4mm 1/108 traditional shipyard scale
15 mm 1/118
14.8mm 1/120 TT scale
12.3mm 1/144
11 mm 1/160 N gage
10 mm 1/178
9.25mm micro scale 1/192 buildings and traditional shipyard scale
9 mm 1/197
8.9mm 1/200
8 mm 1/222
7 mm 1/254
6.2 mm 1/285 US Army
6 mm 1/296
5.92 mm 1/300 NATO scale
4mm 1/444
3 mm 1/600 Naval scale
2.5 mm 1/700 Naval scale
2 mm 1/888
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrg3105 ( talk • contribs) 11:17, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I think Miniature conversion should be merged here. The content in that article entirely relates to gaming miniatures, it does not establish notability that is independent from this topic, and neither article is large enough to justify a split for reasons of WP:SIZE. - Verdatum ( talk) 16:15, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
This has been discussed extensively here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Miniature_conversion#Notability.3F (the general consensus appears to be to not merge) Mathmo Talk 07:25, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
I changed the wording in the scales section to note the 28mm's connection to 1:64 (when measured to top of head).
I haven't been involved with this page over time, so I'll just limit myself to the following proposals, and let the old timers yea or nay them.
Split the 25/28s - I suggest that 28mm figures be split off from 25s and given their own row in the SCALES table. "True" 25s don't seem to be made much these days, and many people seem to have stopped referring to "large" or "heroic" 25s, and simply call the big figures 28 mm. Might as well acknowledge the new order of things.
Significant digits - In science and engineering the concept of significant digits is important to accurate measurement. You can't come up with meaningful answers in ten-thousandths when your input data was rounded to tenths, or when your equipment can't measure better than hundredths. In the final answer, the excess places to the right of the decimal are meaningless and should be dropped, because they convey a sense of precision which in fact is false.
Measurements of gaming figures are absurdly imprecise - no one agrees whether the measurement is to the top of the head or to the eyes, whether to include bases, or boot-heels or bouffant hairdos, or whether the figure is to represent an idealized six-foot man or the average modern 5'10" Euro-dude or the average 5'4" half-starved peasant of the historical period, etc. etc. So working out scale ratios (in the SCALES table) to thousandths not only violates the significant digits principle, but seems, well, a bit laughable. I propose you drop everything to the right of the decimal point. "1:52.251" just goes to the idealized 1:52. "1:121.92" rounds to the conventionalized 1:120. Likewise, round to the nearest half-mm when figuring the size of a scale foot. Mention somewhere that the ratios and feet are approximate and conventionalized.
54 mm listing notes - 54 mm used to be a standard size for dime-store plastic Army men, but in the era of the Dollar Store, my impression is that the baggie-figures are shrinking as manufacturers fudge down plastic soldiers and cowboys smaller and smaller to save material. You may want to check out the theory first, but a correction of the note might be in order.
Thanks for all the work that has been put into this page.
D.Helber ( talk) 19:33, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
I removed the "notable" list from the article for one very simple reason: establishing who is "notable" is an impossible proposition. It can only ever be POV. Other articles which had similar lists are also removing them for the same reason. Please do not re-instate it without discussion here first. — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 02:18, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( non-admin closure) Safari Scribe Edits! Talk! 10:54, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
Miniature model (gaming) → Miniature model (wargaming) – Obviously this article is about wargaming, I think we should rename it so that the word in parentheses says "wargaming" instead of "gaming". 2600:1700:1960:F100:AD53:CAC0:D213:C644 ( talk) 06:52, 6 June 2024 (UTC)