![]() | The contents of the Miniature Australian Shepherd page were merged into Miniature American Shepherd on May 2017 and it now redirects there. For the contribution history and old versions of the merged article please see its history. |
These two breeds must be kept separate. They have different registering bodies and are two different breeds. They are no longer one in the same.
This is not a real breed. It is merly the same breed scale down they should go in the same article. CHIMES
Can someone provide links that show that AKC and/or UKC recognize the mini as a breed? I can't find it-- ACK list of breeds, [ UKC list of breeds. Thanks. Elf | Talk 18:44, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
UKC at one time would allow Miniature Australian Shepherds to be registered as Australian Shepherds. Recently (4-06) the UKC decided that they would no longer continue this policy. See UKC's list of accepted registries
it is not currently accepted by the major show registries, however the national stock dog registry serves as the registry of choice. There is significant pressure from many herding dog groups for herding breeds to NOT to be recognized by a major show registry (AKC, UKC), since it is thought that the working quality of the dogs will decline in favor of "conformationally correct" dogs (for instance, the third picture may be a sound working dog, but he is disqualified from show as a mismark, since he has no color around one eye) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.120.231.2 ( talk) 01:06, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
What needs to be done to have some additional pictures added for this page? While the red tri is a cute dog a variety of miniature sized aussies would be better.
This article suffers from first person and clearly un-encyclopedic information, especially the Appearance section. If the author is watching, please clean this up asap. -- Jmeden2000 20:11, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
I removed the line that claims that these dog's have x-ray vision... haha 128.194.26.248 ( talk) 17:28, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
This might sound like a silly question, but why is Miniature in some of this article not capitalized? Shouldn't it be? Mokoniki ( talk) 19:05, 12 August 2009 (UTC) Mokoniki
USASA (United States Australian Shepherd Association) doesn't want to have Mini Aussies in existence, however they do have them in their stud books "by accident". The AKC has opened the door to the Mini Aussies as long as there is a name change. North American Shepherd is what the UKC calls them now, with their first step towards accepting the "breed". A rose is a rose, by any other name. Miniature Australian Shepherds are just that, no matter what the USASA says. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.200.173.45 ( talk) 15:38, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
AKC is now accepting into its FSS program, the Miniature American Shepherd (MAmShep) (stock dog program is the first step to full recognition). This is a break-away minority of Miniature Australian Shepherds entering into AKC. From now on, the MAmShep is considered a different breed from the Aussies, miniature or not. No cross breeding may occur between MAmShep and Aussies, mini or standard. Also there's an AKC requirement of having to be three generations away from the standard Aussies, in other words, at least three generations of Miniature Australian Shepherds only in its lineage before a particular dog/bitch is accepted into FSS/AKC. No standard Aussies for three generations back. This is to appease the USASA.
Miniature Australian Shepherds continue to have a much larger stock to breed from, including standard Aussies, making this breed (not MAmShep) the healthier choice for consumers, overall, especially as time goes by. TwinkleeT ( talk) 18:40, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Several editors been removing mention of the new "Miniature American Shepherd" name and the AKC/USASA/NAMASCUSA proceedings, one of them saying that Miniature American Shepherds are not actually Miniature Australian Shepherds and have separate histories. The NAMASCUSA says otherwise:
Now with the recognition of the American Rare Breed Association (ARBA) the Miniature Australian Shepherds showed along side the Australian Shepherd until 1993, when the AKC officially recognized the Australian Shepherd. The American Rare Breed Association's policy at that time was not to allow any breed of dog to show with them (except in exhibition) that had the same name as an AKC affiliated breed and suggested that we change our name. Amid mixed reactions MASCUSA opted to change the name of our dogs from Miniature Australian Shepherd to North American Shepherd, for the sole purpose of keeping ARBA as one of our main show venues. At the same time, the club amended its name to North American Miniature Australian Club, USA, while also retaining the name Miniature Australian Club, USA as an a.k.a. The breed flourished over the next five years and grew under this name both in the US and Canada.
In the beginning of 1998, ARBA changed their breed name policy and through much consideration and discussion on the part of our club members and the Board of Directors of NASCUSA, formerly MASCUSA, Miniature Australian Shepherd was incorporated back into the name of our dogs, thus becoming the North American "Miniature Australian Shepherd".
The NAMASCUSA has stated, "The name of this new breed is the Miniature American Shepherd." I kindly request that anyone removing this information back up their decision with specific quotes. If no one refutes this within a few days, I'll add it back into the article along with a hidden comment. — anndelion ❋ 18:02, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
NAMASCUSA has chosen to take some miniature Australian Shepherds and create a new and separate breed. These dogs will become Miniature American Shepherds in AKC and once registered as such, will lose all registration rights with MASCA as miniature Australian Shepherds. Since MASCA members will continue to to breed small Australian Shepherds, those dogs will continue to be miniature variety Australian Shepherds, while the AKC Miniature American Shepherd, with a closed gene pool from the miniature Australian Shepherd, will truly be a separate breed. The NAMaSCUSA BOD needs to make a Wiki page to reflect this new and SEPARATE breed, and quit riding on the coattails of the dogs that will remain miniature Australian Shepherds. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Starlaine (
talk •
contribs) 18:15, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
ANNDELION....Do you really need any other quotes to back this up than the statement by NAMASCUSA themselves ...the name of this NEW BREED...? In other words, NO LONGER A MINIATURE AUSTRALIAN SHEPHERD. No longer recognized as such. Seems pretty clear to me. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Starlaine (
talk •
contribs) 18:39, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
Actually, I think a new page for the Miniature American Shepherd should be made. If I knew how to do it, I would have done so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Starlaine ( talk • contribs) 19:41, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
These two breeds should never be merged. They are two separate breeds. Miniature Australian Shepherds are not recognized by AKC they are a Rare Breed having there own registries. MASCA, IMASC, ASDR and NSDR. Miniature American Shepherds are only registered with AKC as a separate breed! Please separate these pages again for these breeds. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dianna Jaynes ( talk • contribs) 16:46, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
These are the same breed. The two articles should be merged, probably under the AKC-recognized name of Miniature American Shepherd, to prevent forking. TKK! bark with me if you're my dog! 03:35, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
Totally not acceptable. The Miniature American Shepherd has gone to AKC as a new specific breed with a different history. The Miniature Australian Shepherd enthusiasts have stayed true to their history and dogs and will not change name/history to suit AKC. Do not merge this. It would be like merging Poodles with Portugese Water dogs....different dogs, different names, different history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:30A:2E64:8B90:74C6:AE28:9850:44A3 ( talk) 13:46, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
Definitely NOT acceptable. Although Mini American Shepherds are (or used to be before they changed registries) Australian Shepherds, Mini Australian Shepherds are NOT Mini American Shepherds. Just because a group of people felt their dogs were not being adequately recognized as the mini variety, does not mean ALL people who have Mini Aussies feel that way. Mini Aussie owners/breeders want to ensure our dogs remain known and recognized for what they are-AUSTRALIAN SHEPHERDS of the Miniature Variety! Also, Mini American breeders do not realize that if their dogs end up being too tall for the breed standard, there is nothing they can do as far as showing them-they are too tall. Now an Australian Shepherd is an Australian Shepherd no matter what size, they are able to be registered as a Mini if they are within the size requirements and if they are too tall to be a Mini, then they are considered a Standard. These dogs are NOT a totally different breed but because someone decided they needed to be different, now they must be treated as such. You cannot breed a registered Mini Aussie to a registered Mini American and get papers on those dogs as pure breeds. So if that is true, you cannot merge the two breeds into one wiki page for the same reasons. They are TWO DIFFERENT BREEDS now and must remain labeled as such. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
139.55.19.48
talk) 18:45,
10 October 2013 (UTC) :The AKC literally describes these dogs as a dwarf Australian Shepherd, which, by definition, makes them the same thing. -- TKK! bark with me if you're my dog! 06:36, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
16, October 2013 - This is not acceptable. The Miniature American Shepherd is now and will remain a separate breed from the Australian Shepherd. I for one would want to confront the AKC and make them change their statement if their description says dwarf Australian Shepherd, because that is not what the Miniature American Shepherd is, it is however, a smaller herding breed dog that originated from the Australian Shepherd. Using the word dwarf does not mean smaller variety, it has a whole other meaning referring to bone deformity among other things. I can't believe the Mini American Shepherd people allowed the AKC to refer to their dogs as a dwarf Australian Shepherd. Per the AKC mandates the two dogs, (Miniature Australian Shepherd and Miniature American Shepherd), are two completely separate breeds.
In 1993, MASCUSA (the original organization) became the North American Shepherd Club of America. For the next 15 years there were numerous clubs that were formed, reorganized, and defunct trying to come to a consensus concerning the emerging breed. Enough members were eventually interested in obtaining separate recognition, thus prompting members of NAMASCUSA to approach the AKC. Working as a team with AKC and USASA, the name and breed of Miniature American Shepherd was born. The Miniature Australian Shepherd community is still divided over this compromise." -- TKK! bark with me if you're my dog! 23:25, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
This proposal is wrong, wrong, wrong. The Miniature Australian Shepherd is not a Miniature American Shepherd. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GregNC1 ( talk • contribs) 05:17, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The articles Miniature Australian Shepherd and Miniature American Shepherd are about the same dog breed. What occurred was that members of the organization promoting/breeding the Australian dogs pushed for AKC recognition, which they received, under the Mini American moniker, while part of the same group refused to recognize the AKC recognition themselves and kept the Mini Aussie name. This, to me, is a fairly obvious WP:POV fork and one of these articles needs to be merged somewhere. I proposed they both get merged to the Mini American page with discussion of the controversy, since that's the recognized name, and you can see what resulted above. I'm bringing this to RFC to open the issue up to a wider audience, so editors unaffiliated with either breed can comment on the issue. So my RFC boils down to this:
Do the Miniature Australian Shepherd and Miniature American Shepherd articles constitute a POV fork, should they be merged, and if they should be merged, under what breed name should they be merged - the original name (Mini Aussie) or the American Kennel Club-recognized name (Mini American)? -- TKK! bark with me if you're my dog! 23:35, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
There is no consensus for this other than by the Miniature Australian Shepherds. Please ask the registering bodies of Miniature Australian Shepherds. This breed has not entirely moved over and many breeders will not move to AKC recognition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dianna Jaynes ( talk • contribs) 16:49, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Per the merge discussion above, there is consensus that we need to merge these but to what name? I still prefer the AKC recognized name, and I like the idea of an inclusive name but I don't know how we'd go about that without constantly flipping back and forth between 'The Miniature Australian Shepherd, or Miniature American Shepherd' and the inverse and I have no ideas about what would constitute an inclusive name. Ping: @ 0x0077BE: and @ JonRichfield: -- TKK public ( Bark at me \\ Block this account if it's acting funny!) 23:40, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
A Case Against Merging Titles
While the discussion above has been closed, there still remains no single title to unify the entries under owing to the fact that the Miniature Australian Shepherd and Miniature American Shepherds represent different breeds and breeding interests. This is a kind of discussion that takes place throughout dog breed history as you can see with the Norfolk and the Norwich terrier (up ears or down) and the Beagle (the 13 inch and 15 inch varieties, which both show separately). Keep in mind, both breeding parties are breeding dogs with solely Australian Shepherd genetics. They are simply favoring small dogs over larger ones. It is only how they want to be viewed by the breeding community that is different.
Now, the American Shepherd is represented by the MASCUSA breed club http://www.mascusa.org. Members of this breed club accepted the stock dog status under the AKC. They have been in this status for the past few years and will be accepted formally into the AKC as American Shepherds in July of this year. After this point, the pool of potential dogs is locked and American Shepherds can only be bred to other American Shepherds. The american shepherd standard is sized at 13-18 inches, with most being bred towards the smaller end
Now, the Minature Australian Shepherd is represented by the MASCA breed club at http://mascaonline.com. The MASCA did not accept the AKC stock dog status for two reasons: 1.) They wanted to continue to have a large pool of dogs to pull genetic material from and 2.) they wish to be accepted into the AKC under different terms. They do not want the miniature australian shepherd to be a different breed, but rather a size variation. This would be like the 13' and 15" beagles. Both fall under the Beagle breed and can be bred interchangeably, but there is such a strong preference in size variation that 13' and 15' beagles are evaluated separately. This is an important distinction, because if you invest in a miniature, they tend to be only slightly smaller (14-18 inches leaning towards the larger) (than their full-sized cousins (18 -23 inches)
It is also worth noting that the Australian Shepherd bred club is not interested in a smaller size variety. In their mind, a medium working dog fits within the current standard. Miniature breeders are still working towards a working dog, but prefer smaller dogs. In conclusion, the miniature Australian should either have its own page, or be added as a sub-category onto the full-sized Australian shepherd page. It should never, however, be merged with the American Shepherd page, especially following July 1, 2015 when the breed is officially severed from the Australian Shepherd breeding pool. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1:9100:1C50:A41F:4D1F:50BC:D52C ( talk) 18:28, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
Consensus was in late 2013 to merge the articles Miniature American Shepherd and Miniature Australian Shepherd (see above). This stalled due to arguing about the name in 2014, followed by johnny-come-lately objections in 2015 on the basis that some people out there are still trying to produce a separate breed or subbreed under the "Australian" name. (Note that Australia itself is not implicated in any way; all three breeds or would-be breeds under discussion actually originated in the US).
Should the consensus to merge be upheld, and if so in what direction?
— SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 21:39, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
Some detailed rationale on why to merge, and in this particular direction:
— SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 21:39, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
@ White Arabian Filly: It already has been fully recognized as a formal breed, under the name "Miniature American Shepherd", its third name (Mini. Aus. Shep., then North Am. Shep., then Mini. Am. Shep.). Much of the point of this merge is that the POVFORKing of these articles is confusing to readers and implies that there are two, even three, entirely separate breeds under discussion, none of them accepted as such. In reality, there's (as always) multiple bloodlines from multiple breeders, and the dogs are recognized by one and only one major kennel club, under one name, classified as a separate breed in the herding category, not as a sub-breed variant of the Aus. Shep., the original goal of some of the breeders back in the '80s. This isn't an "American English Coonhound" case; there's no international conflict, or inter-registry conflict, it's all-American, and all-AKC. The conflict is entirely between various small breeder clubs, zero of which are notable. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 22:18, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, consensus of both merge discussions was to merge this page into Miniature American Shepherd. Is there a reason that's not apparent for why this breed still has two articles? Thanks! Wasechun tashunka ( talk) 19:03, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
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![]() | The contents of the Miniature Australian Shepherd page were merged into Miniature American Shepherd on May 2017 and it now redirects there. For the contribution history and old versions of the merged article please see its history. |
These two breeds must be kept separate. They have different registering bodies and are two different breeds. They are no longer one in the same.
This is not a real breed. It is merly the same breed scale down they should go in the same article. CHIMES
Can someone provide links that show that AKC and/or UKC recognize the mini as a breed? I can't find it-- ACK list of breeds, [ UKC list of breeds. Thanks. Elf | Talk 18:44, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
UKC at one time would allow Miniature Australian Shepherds to be registered as Australian Shepherds. Recently (4-06) the UKC decided that they would no longer continue this policy. See UKC's list of accepted registries
it is not currently accepted by the major show registries, however the national stock dog registry serves as the registry of choice. There is significant pressure from many herding dog groups for herding breeds to NOT to be recognized by a major show registry (AKC, UKC), since it is thought that the working quality of the dogs will decline in favor of "conformationally correct" dogs (for instance, the third picture may be a sound working dog, but he is disqualified from show as a mismark, since he has no color around one eye) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.120.231.2 ( talk) 01:06, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
What needs to be done to have some additional pictures added for this page? While the red tri is a cute dog a variety of miniature sized aussies would be better.
This article suffers from first person and clearly un-encyclopedic information, especially the Appearance section. If the author is watching, please clean this up asap. -- Jmeden2000 20:11, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
I removed the line that claims that these dog's have x-ray vision... haha 128.194.26.248 ( talk) 17:28, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
This might sound like a silly question, but why is Miniature in some of this article not capitalized? Shouldn't it be? Mokoniki ( talk) 19:05, 12 August 2009 (UTC) Mokoniki
USASA (United States Australian Shepherd Association) doesn't want to have Mini Aussies in existence, however they do have them in their stud books "by accident". The AKC has opened the door to the Mini Aussies as long as there is a name change. North American Shepherd is what the UKC calls them now, with their first step towards accepting the "breed". A rose is a rose, by any other name. Miniature Australian Shepherds are just that, no matter what the USASA says. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.200.173.45 ( talk) 15:38, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
AKC is now accepting into its FSS program, the Miniature American Shepherd (MAmShep) (stock dog program is the first step to full recognition). This is a break-away minority of Miniature Australian Shepherds entering into AKC. From now on, the MAmShep is considered a different breed from the Aussies, miniature or not. No cross breeding may occur between MAmShep and Aussies, mini or standard. Also there's an AKC requirement of having to be three generations away from the standard Aussies, in other words, at least three generations of Miniature Australian Shepherds only in its lineage before a particular dog/bitch is accepted into FSS/AKC. No standard Aussies for three generations back. This is to appease the USASA.
Miniature Australian Shepherds continue to have a much larger stock to breed from, including standard Aussies, making this breed (not MAmShep) the healthier choice for consumers, overall, especially as time goes by. TwinkleeT ( talk) 18:40, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Several editors been removing mention of the new "Miniature American Shepherd" name and the AKC/USASA/NAMASCUSA proceedings, one of them saying that Miniature American Shepherds are not actually Miniature Australian Shepherds and have separate histories. The NAMASCUSA says otherwise:
Now with the recognition of the American Rare Breed Association (ARBA) the Miniature Australian Shepherds showed along side the Australian Shepherd until 1993, when the AKC officially recognized the Australian Shepherd. The American Rare Breed Association's policy at that time was not to allow any breed of dog to show with them (except in exhibition) that had the same name as an AKC affiliated breed and suggested that we change our name. Amid mixed reactions MASCUSA opted to change the name of our dogs from Miniature Australian Shepherd to North American Shepherd, for the sole purpose of keeping ARBA as one of our main show venues. At the same time, the club amended its name to North American Miniature Australian Club, USA, while also retaining the name Miniature Australian Club, USA as an a.k.a. The breed flourished over the next five years and grew under this name both in the US and Canada.
In the beginning of 1998, ARBA changed their breed name policy and through much consideration and discussion on the part of our club members and the Board of Directors of NASCUSA, formerly MASCUSA, Miniature Australian Shepherd was incorporated back into the name of our dogs, thus becoming the North American "Miniature Australian Shepherd".
The NAMASCUSA has stated, "The name of this new breed is the Miniature American Shepherd." I kindly request that anyone removing this information back up their decision with specific quotes. If no one refutes this within a few days, I'll add it back into the article along with a hidden comment. — anndelion ❋ 18:02, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
NAMASCUSA has chosen to take some miniature Australian Shepherds and create a new and separate breed. These dogs will become Miniature American Shepherds in AKC and once registered as such, will lose all registration rights with MASCA as miniature Australian Shepherds. Since MASCA members will continue to to breed small Australian Shepherds, those dogs will continue to be miniature variety Australian Shepherds, while the AKC Miniature American Shepherd, with a closed gene pool from the miniature Australian Shepherd, will truly be a separate breed. The NAMaSCUSA BOD needs to make a Wiki page to reflect this new and SEPARATE breed, and quit riding on the coattails of the dogs that will remain miniature Australian Shepherds. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Starlaine (
talk •
contribs) 18:15, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
ANNDELION....Do you really need any other quotes to back this up than the statement by NAMASCUSA themselves ...the name of this NEW BREED...? In other words, NO LONGER A MINIATURE AUSTRALIAN SHEPHERD. No longer recognized as such. Seems pretty clear to me. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Starlaine (
talk •
contribs) 18:39, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
Actually, I think a new page for the Miniature American Shepherd should be made. If I knew how to do it, I would have done so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Starlaine ( talk • contribs) 19:41, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
These two breeds should never be merged. They are two separate breeds. Miniature Australian Shepherds are not recognized by AKC they are a Rare Breed having there own registries. MASCA, IMASC, ASDR and NSDR. Miniature American Shepherds are only registered with AKC as a separate breed! Please separate these pages again for these breeds. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dianna Jaynes ( talk • contribs) 16:46, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
These are the same breed. The two articles should be merged, probably under the AKC-recognized name of Miniature American Shepherd, to prevent forking. TKK! bark with me if you're my dog! 03:35, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
Totally not acceptable. The Miniature American Shepherd has gone to AKC as a new specific breed with a different history. The Miniature Australian Shepherd enthusiasts have stayed true to their history and dogs and will not change name/history to suit AKC. Do not merge this. It would be like merging Poodles with Portugese Water dogs....different dogs, different names, different history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:30A:2E64:8B90:74C6:AE28:9850:44A3 ( talk) 13:46, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
Definitely NOT acceptable. Although Mini American Shepherds are (or used to be before they changed registries) Australian Shepherds, Mini Australian Shepherds are NOT Mini American Shepherds. Just because a group of people felt their dogs were not being adequately recognized as the mini variety, does not mean ALL people who have Mini Aussies feel that way. Mini Aussie owners/breeders want to ensure our dogs remain known and recognized for what they are-AUSTRALIAN SHEPHERDS of the Miniature Variety! Also, Mini American breeders do not realize that if their dogs end up being too tall for the breed standard, there is nothing they can do as far as showing them-they are too tall. Now an Australian Shepherd is an Australian Shepherd no matter what size, they are able to be registered as a Mini if they are within the size requirements and if they are too tall to be a Mini, then they are considered a Standard. These dogs are NOT a totally different breed but because someone decided they needed to be different, now they must be treated as such. You cannot breed a registered Mini Aussie to a registered Mini American and get papers on those dogs as pure breeds. So if that is true, you cannot merge the two breeds into one wiki page for the same reasons. They are TWO DIFFERENT BREEDS now and must remain labeled as such. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
139.55.19.48
talk) 18:45,
10 October 2013 (UTC) :The AKC literally describes these dogs as a dwarf Australian Shepherd, which, by definition, makes them the same thing. -- TKK! bark with me if you're my dog! 06:36, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
16, October 2013 - This is not acceptable. The Miniature American Shepherd is now and will remain a separate breed from the Australian Shepherd. I for one would want to confront the AKC and make them change their statement if their description says dwarf Australian Shepherd, because that is not what the Miniature American Shepherd is, it is however, a smaller herding breed dog that originated from the Australian Shepherd. Using the word dwarf does not mean smaller variety, it has a whole other meaning referring to bone deformity among other things. I can't believe the Mini American Shepherd people allowed the AKC to refer to their dogs as a dwarf Australian Shepherd. Per the AKC mandates the two dogs, (Miniature Australian Shepherd and Miniature American Shepherd), are two completely separate breeds.
In 1993, MASCUSA (the original organization) became the North American Shepherd Club of America. For the next 15 years there were numerous clubs that were formed, reorganized, and defunct trying to come to a consensus concerning the emerging breed. Enough members were eventually interested in obtaining separate recognition, thus prompting members of NAMASCUSA to approach the AKC. Working as a team with AKC and USASA, the name and breed of Miniature American Shepherd was born. The Miniature Australian Shepherd community is still divided over this compromise." -- TKK! bark with me if you're my dog! 23:25, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
This proposal is wrong, wrong, wrong. The Miniature Australian Shepherd is not a Miniature American Shepherd. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GregNC1 ( talk • contribs) 05:17, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The articles Miniature Australian Shepherd and Miniature American Shepherd are about the same dog breed. What occurred was that members of the organization promoting/breeding the Australian dogs pushed for AKC recognition, which they received, under the Mini American moniker, while part of the same group refused to recognize the AKC recognition themselves and kept the Mini Aussie name. This, to me, is a fairly obvious WP:POV fork and one of these articles needs to be merged somewhere. I proposed they both get merged to the Mini American page with discussion of the controversy, since that's the recognized name, and you can see what resulted above. I'm bringing this to RFC to open the issue up to a wider audience, so editors unaffiliated with either breed can comment on the issue. So my RFC boils down to this:
Do the Miniature Australian Shepherd and Miniature American Shepherd articles constitute a POV fork, should they be merged, and if they should be merged, under what breed name should they be merged - the original name (Mini Aussie) or the American Kennel Club-recognized name (Mini American)? -- TKK! bark with me if you're my dog! 23:35, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
There is no consensus for this other than by the Miniature Australian Shepherds. Please ask the registering bodies of Miniature Australian Shepherds. This breed has not entirely moved over and many breeders will not move to AKC recognition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dianna Jaynes ( talk • contribs) 16:49, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Per the merge discussion above, there is consensus that we need to merge these but to what name? I still prefer the AKC recognized name, and I like the idea of an inclusive name but I don't know how we'd go about that without constantly flipping back and forth between 'The Miniature Australian Shepherd, or Miniature American Shepherd' and the inverse and I have no ideas about what would constitute an inclusive name. Ping: @ 0x0077BE: and @ JonRichfield: -- TKK public ( Bark at me \\ Block this account if it's acting funny!) 23:40, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
A Case Against Merging Titles
While the discussion above has been closed, there still remains no single title to unify the entries under owing to the fact that the Miniature Australian Shepherd and Miniature American Shepherds represent different breeds and breeding interests. This is a kind of discussion that takes place throughout dog breed history as you can see with the Norfolk and the Norwich terrier (up ears or down) and the Beagle (the 13 inch and 15 inch varieties, which both show separately). Keep in mind, both breeding parties are breeding dogs with solely Australian Shepherd genetics. They are simply favoring small dogs over larger ones. It is only how they want to be viewed by the breeding community that is different.
Now, the American Shepherd is represented by the MASCUSA breed club http://www.mascusa.org. Members of this breed club accepted the stock dog status under the AKC. They have been in this status for the past few years and will be accepted formally into the AKC as American Shepherds in July of this year. After this point, the pool of potential dogs is locked and American Shepherds can only be bred to other American Shepherds. The american shepherd standard is sized at 13-18 inches, with most being bred towards the smaller end
Now, the Minature Australian Shepherd is represented by the MASCA breed club at http://mascaonline.com. The MASCA did not accept the AKC stock dog status for two reasons: 1.) They wanted to continue to have a large pool of dogs to pull genetic material from and 2.) they wish to be accepted into the AKC under different terms. They do not want the miniature australian shepherd to be a different breed, but rather a size variation. This would be like the 13' and 15" beagles. Both fall under the Beagle breed and can be bred interchangeably, but there is such a strong preference in size variation that 13' and 15' beagles are evaluated separately. This is an important distinction, because if you invest in a miniature, they tend to be only slightly smaller (14-18 inches leaning towards the larger) (than their full-sized cousins (18 -23 inches)
It is also worth noting that the Australian Shepherd bred club is not interested in a smaller size variety. In their mind, a medium working dog fits within the current standard. Miniature breeders are still working towards a working dog, but prefer smaller dogs. In conclusion, the miniature Australian should either have its own page, or be added as a sub-category onto the full-sized Australian shepherd page. It should never, however, be merged with the American Shepherd page, especially following July 1, 2015 when the breed is officially severed from the Australian Shepherd breeding pool. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1:9100:1C50:A41F:4D1F:50BC:D52C ( talk) 18:28, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
Consensus was in late 2013 to merge the articles Miniature American Shepherd and Miniature Australian Shepherd (see above). This stalled due to arguing about the name in 2014, followed by johnny-come-lately objections in 2015 on the basis that some people out there are still trying to produce a separate breed or subbreed under the "Australian" name. (Note that Australia itself is not implicated in any way; all three breeds or would-be breeds under discussion actually originated in the US).
Should the consensus to merge be upheld, and if so in what direction?
— SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 21:39, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
Some detailed rationale on why to merge, and in this particular direction:
— SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 21:39, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
@ White Arabian Filly: It already has been fully recognized as a formal breed, under the name "Miniature American Shepherd", its third name (Mini. Aus. Shep., then North Am. Shep., then Mini. Am. Shep.). Much of the point of this merge is that the POVFORKing of these articles is confusing to readers and implies that there are two, even three, entirely separate breeds under discussion, none of them accepted as such. In reality, there's (as always) multiple bloodlines from multiple breeders, and the dogs are recognized by one and only one major kennel club, under one name, classified as a separate breed in the herding category, not as a sub-breed variant of the Aus. Shep., the original goal of some of the breeders back in the '80s. This isn't an "American English Coonhound" case; there's no international conflict, or inter-registry conflict, it's all-American, and all-AKC. The conflict is entirely between various small breeder clubs, zero of which are notable. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 22:18, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, consensus of both merge discussions was to merge this page into Miniature American Shepherd. Is there a reason that's not apparent for why this breed still has two articles? Thanks! Wasechun tashunka ( talk) 19:03, 18 May 2017 (UTC)