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The result of the proposal was moved as uncontroversial. -- regentspark ( comment) 15:09, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
I manually reverted the controversy section. Was not written in an encyclopedic tone and couldn't find any mention of it in an RS. Noblet97 ( talk) 14:14, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
Rephrased the "Controversies" section for encyclopedic tone, added a quote in the sources: "The therapy is carried out in an experimental format: it is prescribed by the decision of the medical council to patients with incurable forms of the tumor, when all possibilities have been exhausted." "All possibilities exhausted" = "No other options left". 37.1.207.52 ( talk) 16:23, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
Controversies section: Added hospital name. Changed phrasing. Provided additional sources (two non-Russian sources). Provided additional references and citations regarding certain death of the patients. Stilo72 ( talk) 18:36, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
@ MBq:: regarding your edit: You really want to soften it, don't you? You changed "supplies" to "donations" and removed "with death being the only possible outcome", but titled your edit "off-label in Russia". Nice try. However this is what sources say (we are interested in what sources say, not what we think, right?): https://www.biocentury.com/article/643564/russia-boycott-includes-car-t-therapies SAYS THIS: "Miltenyi Biotec’s decision to stop sales of vectors for CAR T therapy to Russia" - SALES, not "donations". This is an official article. You can register for free to read the full version. It also says: "Miltenyi Biotec GmbH has suspended shipments of viral vectors and equipment that Russian medical centers, including a pediatric cancer center". "Suspended shipments" is EXACTLY that I used in my section. Why change the official SOURCE's text to your own? Now about certain death. SOURCES SPECIFICALLY MENTION CERTAIN DEATH, who are you to argue with the sources? https://www.russiamatters.org/news/russia-review/russia-review-june-3-10-2022 : "Therefore, right now about 50 children with blood cancer—patients of the Rogachev Institute—are doomed to die." https://istories-media.translate.goog/opinions/2022/06/10/oni-umrut/?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp : "Therefore, right now, according to Important Stories, about 50 children with blood cancer - patients of the Rogachev Center - are doomed to die. “There are no alternative supplies and there will not be. This technology was provided by a single manufacturer. Some companies are working in the same direction, but so far there is nothing close, ” said Alexei Maschan, director of the Institute of Hematology, Immunology and Cell Technologies of the National Medical Research Center, to Vademecum. “The refusal of Miltenyi Biotec to supply consumables for patients means one thing - they will die." Why are you contradicting the sources? What are you doing? Your mention "troll armies" on your German page, and look at you - twisting the sources to make a German company look better. This needs to stop. For one reason, only to avoid being accused of an edit war, I am giving you one day to defend your changes if you can. After this, the text will be changed to what the sources say, not what you think. Stilo72 ( talk) 14:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
It is clear that the Controversies section is warranted because of how much controversy it generates. People tend to delete it without even trying to discuss it.
Another claim (not an edit, a wholesale deletion with no prior discussion): https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Miltenyi_Biotec&diff=1099368024&oldid=1098086731 131Platypi: "This is not a "controversy" but an accusal. Neither of the sources is reliable, the melodramatic style violates NPOV, fusing (as stated unreliable) information together violates NOR, there is no reference that any reliable source even discusses this. Editor is SPA with a clear agenda."
First of all, this is not an "accusal", but are statements of facts. The four facts that are mentioned do not constitute original research because all these facts are well-sourced. These are the four facts:
1. The invasion of Ukraine was the stated reason. Source: https://www.biocentury.com/article/643564/russia-boycott-includes-car-t-therapies (free registration).
2. Miltenyi Biotec suspended supplies of CAR-T therapy equipment to Russian Rogachev children's hospital. Sources: https://www.biocentury.com/article/643564/russia-boycott-includes-car-t-therapies (free registration) and https://www.russiamatters.org/news/russia-review/russia-review-june-3-10-2022
3. The outcome is death. Sources: Russia Matters and iStories.
4. While the treatment was available, 90% of child patients achieved remission (five Russian sources).
I have already defended the notability of the sources above on this page. Here is the new data: Notability check by SimilarWeb.com Global Website Rank as of 20th of July 2022 (UPDATED):
1. No 100 The NY Times (the US) (benchmark)
2. No 474 RBC.ru (RBK) - one of the sources for the "Controversies" section
3. No 1,096 Gazeta.ru - one of the sources for the "Controversies" section. ( /info/en/?search=Gazeta.Ru). Gazeta.ru is known in Wikipedia in 9 languages.
4. No 1,907 The Times (Great Britain) (benchmark)
5. No 2,017 Kommersant.ru - one of the sources for the "Controversies" section. ( /info/en/?search=Kommersant). Kommersant is known in Wikipedia in 26 languages.
6. No 2,506 IZ.ru (Izvestiya) - one of the sources for the "Controversies" section. ( /info/en/?search=Izvestia). Izvestia is known in Wikipedia in 34 languages
7. No 6,869 Chicago Tribune (the US) (benchmark)
Other sources include Russia Matters, a project launched in 2016 by Harvard Kennedy School’s Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs and made possible with support from Carnegie Corporation of New York and the Stanton Foundation, and BioCentury, "For three decades, BioCentury has given biopharma executives, investors and institutions the power to make business-critical decisions through independent, deep-dive analysis; high-quality data; industry-leading business intelligence; and global conferences. ... Headquartered in Redwood City, Calif., BioCentury has offices throughout the U.S. and in the U.K."
There is also a purely scientific source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8664838/
These sources DO discuss the unavailability of the alternatives and Russia Matters specifically mentions deaths. For example, BioCentury says this: "The voluntary boycott will leave Russian children who would have received CAR T cancer therapy with no options, unless they can travel to another country." (register for free to read).
Regarding the style, I honestly tried to use as neutral a language as possible. I am open to suggestions on how to put it all in a more neutral way if it is possible. It is not, however, a reason to delete the entire section.
And the last, I'm not a "SPA" or any other abbreviation. I'm a human being who had only recently registered an account but was editing for years without one. Some of the latest examples, see my edits to the Siege of Budapest for one: /info/en/?search=Special:Contributions/90.154.70.129
Personal attacks will get you nowhere. You have almost no presence here, on the English Wikipedia ( talk page), but a huge presence on the German Wikipedia ( talk page), and you obviously came here only because you want to defend the actions of a German company, or, even better, sweep them under the rug.
Stilo72 ( talk) 19:59, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This article has not yet been rated on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
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The result of the proposal was moved as uncontroversial. -- regentspark ( comment) 15:09, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
I manually reverted the controversy section. Was not written in an encyclopedic tone and couldn't find any mention of it in an RS. Noblet97 ( talk) 14:14, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
Rephrased the "Controversies" section for encyclopedic tone, added a quote in the sources: "The therapy is carried out in an experimental format: it is prescribed by the decision of the medical council to patients with incurable forms of the tumor, when all possibilities have been exhausted." "All possibilities exhausted" = "No other options left". 37.1.207.52 ( talk) 16:23, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
Controversies section: Added hospital name. Changed phrasing. Provided additional sources (two non-Russian sources). Provided additional references and citations regarding certain death of the patients. Stilo72 ( talk) 18:36, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
@ MBq:: regarding your edit: You really want to soften it, don't you? You changed "supplies" to "donations" and removed "with death being the only possible outcome", but titled your edit "off-label in Russia". Nice try. However this is what sources say (we are interested in what sources say, not what we think, right?): https://www.biocentury.com/article/643564/russia-boycott-includes-car-t-therapies SAYS THIS: "Miltenyi Biotec’s decision to stop sales of vectors for CAR T therapy to Russia" - SALES, not "donations". This is an official article. You can register for free to read the full version. It also says: "Miltenyi Biotec GmbH has suspended shipments of viral vectors and equipment that Russian medical centers, including a pediatric cancer center". "Suspended shipments" is EXACTLY that I used in my section. Why change the official SOURCE's text to your own? Now about certain death. SOURCES SPECIFICALLY MENTION CERTAIN DEATH, who are you to argue with the sources? https://www.russiamatters.org/news/russia-review/russia-review-june-3-10-2022 : "Therefore, right now about 50 children with blood cancer—patients of the Rogachev Institute—are doomed to die." https://istories-media.translate.goog/opinions/2022/06/10/oni-umrut/?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp : "Therefore, right now, according to Important Stories, about 50 children with blood cancer - patients of the Rogachev Center - are doomed to die. “There are no alternative supplies and there will not be. This technology was provided by a single manufacturer. Some companies are working in the same direction, but so far there is nothing close, ” said Alexei Maschan, director of the Institute of Hematology, Immunology and Cell Technologies of the National Medical Research Center, to Vademecum. “The refusal of Miltenyi Biotec to supply consumables for patients means one thing - they will die." Why are you contradicting the sources? What are you doing? Your mention "troll armies" on your German page, and look at you - twisting the sources to make a German company look better. This needs to stop. For one reason, only to avoid being accused of an edit war, I am giving you one day to defend your changes if you can. After this, the text will be changed to what the sources say, not what you think. Stilo72 ( talk) 14:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
It is clear that the Controversies section is warranted because of how much controversy it generates. People tend to delete it without even trying to discuss it.
Another claim (not an edit, a wholesale deletion with no prior discussion): https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Miltenyi_Biotec&diff=1099368024&oldid=1098086731 131Platypi: "This is not a "controversy" but an accusal. Neither of the sources is reliable, the melodramatic style violates NPOV, fusing (as stated unreliable) information together violates NOR, there is no reference that any reliable source even discusses this. Editor is SPA with a clear agenda."
First of all, this is not an "accusal", but are statements of facts. The four facts that are mentioned do not constitute original research because all these facts are well-sourced. These are the four facts:
1. The invasion of Ukraine was the stated reason. Source: https://www.biocentury.com/article/643564/russia-boycott-includes-car-t-therapies (free registration).
2. Miltenyi Biotec suspended supplies of CAR-T therapy equipment to Russian Rogachev children's hospital. Sources: https://www.biocentury.com/article/643564/russia-boycott-includes-car-t-therapies (free registration) and https://www.russiamatters.org/news/russia-review/russia-review-june-3-10-2022
3. The outcome is death. Sources: Russia Matters and iStories.
4. While the treatment was available, 90% of child patients achieved remission (five Russian sources).
I have already defended the notability of the sources above on this page. Here is the new data: Notability check by SimilarWeb.com Global Website Rank as of 20th of July 2022 (UPDATED):
1. No 100 The NY Times (the US) (benchmark)
2. No 474 RBC.ru (RBK) - one of the sources for the "Controversies" section
3. No 1,096 Gazeta.ru - one of the sources for the "Controversies" section. ( /info/en/?search=Gazeta.Ru). Gazeta.ru is known in Wikipedia in 9 languages.
4. No 1,907 The Times (Great Britain) (benchmark)
5. No 2,017 Kommersant.ru - one of the sources for the "Controversies" section. ( /info/en/?search=Kommersant). Kommersant is known in Wikipedia in 26 languages.
6. No 2,506 IZ.ru (Izvestiya) - one of the sources for the "Controversies" section. ( /info/en/?search=Izvestia). Izvestia is known in Wikipedia in 34 languages
7. No 6,869 Chicago Tribune (the US) (benchmark)
Other sources include Russia Matters, a project launched in 2016 by Harvard Kennedy School’s Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs and made possible with support from Carnegie Corporation of New York and the Stanton Foundation, and BioCentury, "For three decades, BioCentury has given biopharma executives, investors and institutions the power to make business-critical decisions through independent, deep-dive analysis; high-quality data; industry-leading business intelligence; and global conferences. ... Headquartered in Redwood City, Calif., BioCentury has offices throughout the U.S. and in the U.K."
There is also a purely scientific source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8664838/
These sources DO discuss the unavailability of the alternatives and Russia Matters specifically mentions deaths. For example, BioCentury says this: "The voluntary boycott will leave Russian children who would have received CAR T cancer therapy with no options, unless they can travel to another country." (register for free to read).
Regarding the style, I honestly tried to use as neutral a language as possible. I am open to suggestions on how to put it all in a more neutral way if it is possible. It is not, however, a reason to delete the entire section.
And the last, I'm not a "SPA" or any other abbreviation. I'm a human being who had only recently registered an account but was editing for years without one. Some of the latest examples, see my edits to the Siege of Budapest for one: /info/en/?search=Special:Contributions/90.154.70.129
Personal attacks will get you nowhere. You have almost no presence here, on the English Wikipedia ( talk page), but a huge presence on the German Wikipedia ( talk page), and you obviously came here only because you want to defend the actions of a German company, or, even better, sweep them under the rug.
Stilo72 ( talk) 19:59, 20 July 2022 (UTC)