![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The only ways I can think of that the object described in this article could be used "with the force of a brick" are:
1. If the term "brick" is wide enough to include those bricks made entirely out of newspaper
2. If an actual brick was placed inside the object
Try making one, place the object beside a granite brick, then ask yourself "which would I rather be hit over the head with?" Those who answer that it would make no difference could do worse than to take a long, hard look at themselves.
The citations are not all from reliable sources
WP:RS. Is it really certain that the term refers simply to rolled-up newspaper (as opposed to newspaper used to conceal something that would be more effective as a weapon?) I really can't imagine soccer hooligans attacking each other with fly-swatters. I take the last point back, having just built one out of a broadsheet. It is comparable to a rubber cosh. The "force of a brick" thing still seems highly unlikely, however.
Pathlessdesert 21:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
The following work may need to be done on this article:
Millwall Brick? Is someone on the wind up? "The Millwall Brick" is a fanzine and media joke! Lion King 14:36, 5 November 2006 (UTC) I would strongly recommend that this "article" disappears before any official from Millwall Football Club spots it, or a copy of it is sent to them. Lion King 16:28, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
This is to inform you that the sourse of "The Millwall Brick" emanates from a spoof advertisment published in Viz Comic for " Tony Hart's - "The Art Of Rolled Paper Thuggery", which incidently was recommended for the 1999 Rucker Prize. The "spoof" ad also details how to make "The Chelsea Hammer" and "The Pompey Cosh". Lion King 17:05, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me butting in Lion King: Of course you didn't find anything Jreferee, they don't exist, it's a JOKE. And "Rucker" refers to a "Ruck" which is slang for a fight. Renée.
Newspapers were rolled up tightly to form the so-called Millwall Brick and another trick was to make a knuckleduster out of pennies held in place by a wrapped around paper. You could hardly be pulled up for having a bit of loose change in your pocket and a Daily Mirror under your arm.
So much for the theory that the Millwall Brick was a fabrication by Viz in 1999. Spylab 20:49, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Furthermore, when those bloody idiots who attach themselves to my team want to hit someone, do you think they use a newspaper? Honestly, do you think they hit them with a newspaper made into a brick? Lol! Lion King 21:12, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I find this article to be nothing more than just another pathetic attempt to drag the name of Millwall F.C. and it's supporters through the dirt, and I will be sending a copy to Stewart Till. Be Lucky, Lion King 22:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
US wants to test experimental weapons on dissident's does it...?. (writing, "We years ago at Millwall Football Club developed something called the Millwall Brick and many years of living in London has been trouble free from muggers and other nefarious people in the dark of the night saved by...? A rolled up newspaper!) -- Jreferee 17:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
The article mentions poor little hammer. What does poor little hammer mean?
What I need is a copy of the spoof ad itself. I will mail the MISA which has thousands of members, one of them at least I'm sure, will be bound to have a copy. Please bear with me. Renée
"The term Millwall brick gained a wider notoriety following an incident in May 2002 involving a riot after a game against Birmingham City." Did it? When? Where is there any evidence of that please? Renée.
There is NO evidence to sustansiate this claim, will you please delete it. Renée.
Here's another thing for you all to mull over, if the Millwall Brick originated in the the late 60's, why is there no mention of it in the Soccer Tribe (1981) By Dr. Desmond Morris, when dealing with Millwall's so called "F-Troup." Surely he would have loved to have hammered us (pun intended) with that one! Renée
I am now in possession of a copy the Viz spoof advertisment. It reads thus: RELIVE THE GOLDEN DAYS OF FOOTBALL HOOLIGANISM. JOIN TONY HART'S ORIGAMI ARMY! "With the football season now in full swing, and security at grounds tighter than ever, trouble has never been harder to start. BUT TAKE HART! Buy my new book, The Art of Folded Paper Thuggery, and you'll soon be putting yourself about in no time with nothing more conspicuous than your daily paper! In seconds you'll master... THE MILLWALL BRICK THE CHELSEA HAMMER THE POMPEY COSH. ONLY £15.99. RRP £4.99. Available from all shops everywhere! Morph says: IT'S THE IDEAL XMAS PRESENT!
I will upload it to this page (and this infernal site) as soon as I've worked out how not to reveal my address to the entire world!!! Renée.
THE MILLWALL BRICK? THE CHELSEA HAMMER? THE POMPEY COSH? All I hear Alex, is the grinding of axes. Renée.
No Alex, the spoof advertisment is named: "RELIVE THE GOLDEN DAYS OF FOOTBALL HOOLIGANISM" not "MILLWALL BRICK". Renée.
I recall reading in the 1980s an article about a WW2 British Army training manual that detailed how to make improvised weapons - one of the weapons was made from a folded-up newspaper which (according to the manual) if folded correctly and used in the right way, could be lethal. So, regardless of the origin of the term "Milwall Brick" the concept of making a weapon out of a newspaper has been around for some considerable time. Meowy 15:55, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, almost anything can be improvised and used as a weapon. I am not disputing that, what I am disputing is the spurious claim that this weapon originated at Millwall Football Club. Renée.
Perhaps Millwall Dockers on the Isle of Dogs? Renée
I changed the infobox to read "Unknown; possibly Millwall", but was reverted, so I layout my case here: The article says "However, it is not clear whether actual Millwall supporters have used the weapons", and there is no specific cite for it definitely originating from Millwall. La ï ka 17:09, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Oh wow! Check out the info on the Millwall Brick website - http://www.millwallbrick.com/ this certainly sheds some light, and it's linked as a source for this article! Renée.
The intro says this thing is made from a tabloid paper; the directions recommend using a broadsheet. Which is correct? -- Bpmullins | Talk 22:02, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
EITHER prove a direct link to this weapon, citing RELIABLE PUBLISHED SOURCES or DELETE the following words: MILLWALL FOOTBALL CLUB. Thank you. Renée.
I have done so. Thank you Alex. Renée.
I am unable to delete Millwall Football Club from the main page - will a member please oblige? Thank you for your attention, Renée.
Thank you for deleting. Once again, thank you for your attention. Renée.
Why has MILLWALL FOOTBALL CLUB been inserted back into this article? Renée
Direct evidence? Are you being serious, please don't tell me your'e being serious? Renée.
-- User:Jreferee|Jreferee]] 18:00, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
As it stands this article is libellous, any mention of Millwall Football Club is based on anecdotal evidence and is hearsay, it is a logical fallacy. I strongly advise you to remove it, forthwith. Renée
This might help us. For the lead section, the Wikipedia guide to layout states "Normally, the first paragraph summarizes the most important points of the article. It should clearly explain the subject so that the reader is prepared for the greater level of detail and the qualifications and nuances that follow. If further introductory material is needed before the first section, this can be covered in subsequent paragraphs. ... Keep in mind that for many users this is all they will read, so the most important information should be included. Avoid links in the summary--users should be encouraged to read the summary, and the article, before jumping elsewhere. In addition the colored highlighting of the links may mislead some users into thinking these are especially important points."
Is the connection between the Millwall Brick and Millwall F.C. a most important point of this street fighting weapon article? Does the connection between the Millwall Brick and Millwall F.C. clearly explain the Millwall Brick? How do other articles about weapons handle the "name of the weapon issue?" Do they list the link between the weapon and the source of its name in the lead? If the answer to these is more yes than no, then the connection should stay in the lead. Otherwise, the connection should be removed from the lead. -- Jreferee 18:35, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Repeating a libellous statement from a second party, does not negate it's libellous content. Neither does it render said statement any less libellous.
"an exppression of hope that Millwall F.C. would upset Mancherster United and put the infamous Millwall Brick inside the famous FA Cup", is a defamatory statement, capable of causing harm, irrespective of who has said it, written it or reproduced it, and is therefore libellous. Please remove. Thank you. Renée.
In the section on football hooliganism, it makes more sense to have the chronology based on the topics (i.e. 1960s hooligans, then 1970s hooligans) than to have the chronology based on when books/articles were published. I deleted the publication date of the book Skinhead, to help clear this up (although the publication date is still included in the reference). I also moved the sentence about UK parliament banning newspapers to the Other section, because it doesn't mention football. Spylab 17:32, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Two and and a half years ago, I used to edit Wiki. I left because I was fed up with good faith, accurate edits being reverted because they cast doubt on the verifable content of certain articles, like this one. Now I'm lucky insomuch as, I am familiar with the rules, and not frightened by veiled accusations of vandalism because I dared to revert a load of cobblers! I notice that what you thought was going to be a single IP contribution from myself was reverted. Now what I have noticed is that a single IP contribution patently inventing "DO 'EM WIV A MILLWALL BRICK" with a non-existent source was not. Could that perhaps be because it validates this ludicrous article?.
I have spent over two hours checking your sources, they come from out of print books, blogs and one very inaccurate American sports paper report. Now if I am not mistaken, the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability not truth, presupposing of course, that Millwall supporters did name this weapon. If an article topic has no reliable third party sources Wikipedia should not have an article on it. And BTW, before you jump to any concluions - I'm a Chelsea Fan. 62.136.158.165 13:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The only ways I can think of that the object described in this article could be used "with the force of a brick" are:
1. If the term "brick" is wide enough to include those bricks made entirely out of newspaper
2. If an actual brick was placed inside the object
Try making one, place the object beside a granite brick, then ask yourself "which would I rather be hit over the head with?" Those who answer that it would make no difference could do worse than to take a long, hard look at themselves.
The citations are not all from reliable sources
WP:RS. Is it really certain that the term refers simply to rolled-up newspaper (as opposed to newspaper used to conceal something that would be more effective as a weapon?) I really can't imagine soccer hooligans attacking each other with fly-swatters. I take the last point back, having just built one out of a broadsheet. It is comparable to a rubber cosh. The "force of a brick" thing still seems highly unlikely, however.
Pathlessdesert 21:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
The following work may need to be done on this article:
Millwall Brick? Is someone on the wind up? "The Millwall Brick" is a fanzine and media joke! Lion King 14:36, 5 November 2006 (UTC) I would strongly recommend that this "article" disappears before any official from Millwall Football Club spots it, or a copy of it is sent to them. Lion King 16:28, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
This is to inform you that the sourse of "The Millwall Brick" emanates from a spoof advertisment published in Viz Comic for " Tony Hart's - "The Art Of Rolled Paper Thuggery", which incidently was recommended for the 1999 Rucker Prize. The "spoof" ad also details how to make "The Chelsea Hammer" and "The Pompey Cosh". Lion King 17:05, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me butting in Lion King: Of course you didn't find anything Jreferee, they don't exist, it's a JOKE. And "Rucker" refers to a "Ruck" which is slang for a fight. Renée.
Newspapers were rolled up tightly to form the so-called Millwall Brick and another trick was to make a knuckleduster out of pennies held in place by a wrapped around paper. You could hardly be pulled up for having a bit of loose change in your pocket and a Daily Mirror under your arm.
So much for the theory that the Millwall Brick was a fabrication by Viz in 1999. Spylab 20:49, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Furthermore, when those bloody idiots who attach themselves to my team want to hit someone, do you think they use a newspaper? Honestly, do you think they hit them with a newspaper made into a brick? Lol! Lion King 21:12, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I find this article to be nothing more than just another pathetic attempt to drag the name of Millwall F.C. and it's supporters through the dirt, and I will be sending a copy to Stewart Till. Be Lucky, Lion King 22:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
US wants to test experimental weapons on dissident's does it...?. (writing, "We years ago at Millwall Football Club developed something called the Millwall Brick and many years of living in London has been trouble free from muggers and other nefarious people in the dark of the night saved by...? A rolled up newspaper!) -- Jreferee 17:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
The article mentions poor little hammer. What does poor little hammer mean?
What I need is a copy of the spoof ad itself. I will mail the MISA which has thousands of members, one of them at least I'm sure, will be bound to have a copy. Please bear with me. Renée
"The term Millwall brick gained a wider notoriety following an incident in May 2002 involving a riot after a game against Birmingham City." Did it? When? Where is there any evidence of that please? Renée.
There is NO evidence to sustansiate this claim, will you please delete it. Renée.
Here's another thing for you all to mull over, if the Millwall Brick originated in the the late 60's, why is there no mention of it in the Soccer Tribe (1981) By Dr. Desmond Morris, when dealing with Millwall's so called "F-Troup." Surely he would have loved to have hammered us (pun intended) with that one! Renée
I am now in possession of a copy the Viz spoof advertisment. It reads thus: RELIVE THE GOLDEN DAYS OF FOOTBALL HOOLIGANISM. JOIN TONY HART'S ORIGAMI ARMY! "With the football season now in full swing, and security at grounds tighter than ever, trouble has never been harder to start. BUT TAKE HART! Buy my new book, The Art of Folded Paper Thuggery, and you'll soon be putting yourself about in no time with nothing more conspicuous than your daily paper! In seconds you'll master... THE MILLWALL BRICK THE CHELSEA HAMMER THE POMPEY COSH. ONLY £15.99. RRP £4.99. Available from all shops everywhere! Morph says: IT'S THE IDEAL XMAS PRESENT!
I will upload it to this page (and this infernal site) as soon as I've worked out how not to reveal my address to the entire world!!! Renée.
THE MILLWALL BRICK? THE CHELSEA HAMMER? THE POMPEY COSH? All I hear Alex, is the grinding of axes. Renée.
No Alex, the spoof advertisment is named: "RELIVE THE GOLDEN DAYS OF FOOTBALL HOOLIGANISM" not "MILLWALL BRICK". Renée.
I recall reading in the 1980s an article about a WW2 British Army training manual that detailed how to make improvised weapons - one of the weapons was made from a folded-up newspaper which (according to the manual) if folded correctly and used in the right way, could be lethal. So, regardless of the origin of the term "Milwall Brick" the concept of making a weapon out of a newspaper has been around for some considerable time. Meowy 15:55, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, almost anything can be improvised and used as a weapon. I am not disputing that, what I am disputing is the spurious claim that this weapon originated at Millwall Football Club. Renée.
Perhaps Millwall Dockers on the Isle of Dogs? Renée
I changed the infobox to read "Unknown; possibly Millwall", but was reverted, so I layout my case here: The article says "However, it is not clear whether actual Millwall supporters have used the weapons", and there is no specific cite for it definitely originating from Millwall. La ï ka 17:09, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Oh wow! Check out the info on the Millwall Brick website - http://www.millwallbrick.com/ this certainly sheds some light, and it's linked as a source for this article! Renée.
The intro says this thing is made from a tabloid paper; the directions recommend using a broadsheet. Which is correct? -- Bpmullins | Talk 22:02, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
EITHER prove a direct link to this weapon, citing RELIABLE PUBLISHED SOURCES or DELETE the following words: MILLWALL FOOTBALL CLUB. Thank you. Renée.
I have done so. Thank you Alex. Renée.
I am unable to delete Millwall Football Club from the main page - will a member please oblige? Thank you for your attention, Renée.
Thank you for deleting. Once again, thank you for your attention. Renée.
Why has MILLWALL FOOTBALL CLUB been inserted back into this article? Renée
Direct evidence? Are you being serious, please don't tell me your'e being serious? Renée.
-- User:Jreferee|Jreferee]] 18:00, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
As it stands this article is libellous, any mention of Millwall Football Club is based on anecdotal evidence and is hearsay, it is a logical fallacy. I strongly advise you to remove it, forthwith. Renée
This might help us. For the lead section, the Wikipedia guide to layout states "Normally, the first paragraph summarizes the most important points of the article. It should clearly explain the subject so that the reader is prepared for the greater level of detail and the qualifications and nuances that follow. If further introductory material is needed before the first section, this can be covered in subsequent paragraphs. ... Keep in mind that for many users this is all they will read, so the most important information should be included. Avoid links in the summary--users should be encouraged to read the summary, and the article, before jumping elsewhere. In addition the colored highlighting of the links may mislead some users into thinking these are especially important points."
Is the connection between the Millwall Brick and Millwall F.C. a most important point of this street fighting weapon article? Does the connection between the Millwall Brick and Millwall F.C. clearly explain the Millwall Brick? How do other articles about weapons handle the "name of the weapon issue?" Do they list the link between the weapon and the source of its name in the lead? If the answer to these is more yes than no, then the connection should stay in the lead. Otherwise, the connection should be removed from the lead. -- Jreferee 18:35, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Repeating a libellous statement from a second party, does not negate it's libellous content. Neither does it render said statement any less libellous.
"an exppression of hope that Millwall F.C. would upset Mancherster United and put the infamous Millwall Brick inside the famous FA Cup", is a defamatory statement, capable of causing harm, irrespective of who has said it, written it or reproduced it, and is therefore libellous. Please remove. Thank you. Renée.
In the section on football hooliganism, it makes more sense to have the chronology based on the topics (i.e. 1960s hooligans, then 1970s hooligans) than to have the chronology based on when books/articles were published. I deleted the publication date of the book Skinhead, to help clear this up (although the publication date is still included in the reference). I also moved the sentence about UK parliament banning newspapers to the Other section, because it doesn't mention football. Spylab 17:32, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Two and and a half years ago, I used to edit Wiki. I left because I was fed up with good faith, accurate edits being reverted because they cast doubt on the verifable content of certain articles, like this one. Now I'm lucky insomuch as, I am familiar with the rules, and not frightened by veiled accusations of vandalism because I dared to revert a load of cobblers! I notice that what you thought was going to be a single IP contribution from myself was reverted. Now what I have noticed is that a single IP contribution patently inventing "DO 'EM WIV A MILLWALL BRICK" with a non-existent source was not. Could that perhaps be because it validates this ludicrous article?.
I have spent over two hours checking your sources, they come from out of print books, blogs and one very inaccurate American sports paper report. Now if I am not mistaken, the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability not truth, presupposing of course, that Millwall supporters did name this weapon. If an article topic has no reliable third party sources Wikipedia should not have an article on it. And BTW, before you jump to any concluions - I'm a Chelsea Fan. 62.136.158.165 13:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)