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One of the most interesting counterfactuals emerging in World War II history is what would have happened if Italy had been engaged earlier. The tantalizing prospect glimmers that if Britain and France had been able to declare war on Italy as well as Germany in 1939, Mussolini's house of cards could have been torn apart before Germany could have intervened [and German intervention itself would have been a distraction from the upcoming campaign in the West].
There is an even more compelling counterfactual: the British and French gave way to Italy in its Abyssinian adventure, partly, it seems, because they were genuinely impressed by the evident power of Fascist Italy. But it was a sham then, just as much as it was a sham later. One can argue that the history of the 20th Century would have been radically different [for the better] had Fascist Italy been suppressed in the middle of the 1930s!
From this counterfactual comes a significant question: we know now how feeble Italy was, but why did the military advisors of the day not realize this? The answers to this question have the potential to illuminate not only past history, but also many of the perplexing military questions we face today.
Speculations! Speculations! I think it's best just to concentrate on "what is" rather than "what could have been". Knowing "what is", is hard enough. If only Churchill developed gout earlier... .? If only the Russian winter hadn't been so severe...?
AnnalesSchool (
talk) 01:51, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
"However, on June 10, 1940, as Rommel reached the English Channel, ..."
1. German forces reached the English Channel, surrounding the French and British armies in northeast France and the low countries on May 20, 1940, not June 10. Indeed, by June 4 the Dunkirk evacuation was over and pocket had surrendered.
2. Rommel was only a division commander in the 1940 campaign, and his panzer division was NOT the one that reached the English Channel on May 20. If you want to attribute the reaching of the channel to a German commander, the appropriate person is Kluge, commander of Panzer Group Kluge and in control of the panzer forces that did reach the channel.
Before Italy decalared war, there was a massive and highly complex set of naval demonstations performed with Hitler in attendance. I remember reading about something like 70 Submarines firing deck guns in formation, then submersing and surfacing in perfect formation. There was also some record-breaking fleet sail-past at something like 37 Knots. Does anyone know the details of this, and if so, should it be included in the article? -- Zegoma beach 20:56, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I've taken out the Tone tag because I don't see what is wrong with the tone of this article and because I don't think it appropriate this tag should be added by an unidentified IP address. I feel the same way about the citation tag but will leave it pending debate. This article is a summary article and each section has an underlying 'Main article' in Wikipedia cited. The contents therefore summarise the underlying articles and don't need citations. If there is a problem with citations this should be addressed in the underlying articles. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 11:34, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I must say, the notion that two states formerly at war that although for a long time now at peace have failed to agree a peace treaty somehow makes them still "theoretically" at war seems to me rather preposterous. There is no realistic sense, even theoretical, in which one can claim that Italy is still at war with Japan. (This is not even comparable to the two Koreas, which still have a significant military buildup targeted against each other, and in the case of which a return to hostilities is still conceivable -- Italy and Japan do not target each other militarily, and the thought of a resumption of hostilities between them is simply unimaginable.) It seems far saner to say that a peace treaty is not necessary to end a state of war (even a "theoretical" state of war), than to claim that Italy and Japan are still in any sense (however theoretical) at war. -- SJK ( talk) 08:50, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
The history of Italy during the Second World War does not begin with the Nazi invasion of Poland nor with Mussolini's 10 June declaration. While I don't have the time to write this section now, I would hope someone would edit this piece to add Italy's invasions of Ethiopia (1935), Albania, and other territories, without which it is not really possible to understand Italy's position in 1939. Italy's irredentism and Mussolini's ideas about resurrecting a "Roman Empire" begin much earlier than Poland and should be reflected on this page. While Italy may not have been allied with Germany and fighting Britain and France right away, its actions in the Mediterranean and Red Sea were very much a part of the situation in Europe that led to war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.254.241.30 ( talk) 22:37, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Who gives him the right to decide that the broadcasts by Radio Rome and Radio Berlin concerning the role of Axis forces are unreliable and of dubious nature. I'd hate to see him work for BBC. What has he got the mentality of a child?? Isn't it obvious that historians would've discovered by now that Radio Berlin and Radio Rome had got it all wrong, inventing units that didn't exist and placing them in wrong areas, and ofcourse, getting the dates, timing and weather all wrong when describing actions. Nick Dowling, get real, and have a read of the pages that deal with "Siege Of Tobruk", "Operation Brevity", "Operation Crusader", etcetera, to see that you got it all wrong mate. GENERALMESSE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Generalmesse ( talk • contribs) 03:25, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
This is a sensitive topic for some. From what I have learned, there are some that have essentially spammed and vandalised the page with unfounded bias and propaganda. There are some that have been battling the propaganda. Others have been constructive. Yet, there are some that are aware that this is a topic with a historical legacy of being incorrectly depicted and simply wish to get the facts out.
Further there are others who would not be aware that a ubiquitous number of books have dismissed the Italian involvement in the war. For them it may be difficult to believe as we inherently grew up to believe that non-fiction books are generally gospel. Well, even a technical text book or the most cutting–edge work is prone to mistakes. The whole premise of scientist/philosophical reporting is about constructive critique in order to build on what we currently know. There is plenty to warrant a reassessment of the reputation of Italian soldiers. Their memories are equally as worthy as those of the other participants. To not appraise their involvement based on facts is a disservice to them, and also denigrates those who fought bravely against them. It always cuts both ways.
I would hope that if anyone has any concerns regarding the content in this subsection that they present their arguments here. Lets work together, rather than against each other. Feel free to comment.
I will start with an excerpt to illustrate some of the relevant background, and provided justification for the subsection. This comes from relevant fragments form the first 3 pages of: Walker, Ian W. (2003). Iron Hulls, Iron Hearts; Mussolini's Elite Armoured Divisions in North Africa. Ramsbury: The Crowood Press. ISBN 1-86126-646-4.;
I recommend this book as part of ones library to all who are interested in the North African campaign, in particular.
I’ll state now that I will reinsert verifiable statements that are deleted, within reason.
Romaioi ( talk) 16:20, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
There have been a number of edits recently giving examples of brave battalion actions. If the point of this section is to show that the "general" reputation of Italian fighting prowess was misrepresented during and immediately after the war, then citing a few individual battalion actions won't help. What we need is much broader evidence - opinions of allied generals, German generals and later historians - of which there is a convincing amount of in the article already. I'm tempted to go through this section and remove the "micro detail" (subject to any reaction here to this comment) which at present is swamping and in my opinion diluting the broader evidence. After all, at battalion level it's easy to quote just as many incidents where battalions made a poor showing. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 12:49, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
What has happened to this article, is cleary gangstarism on the part of noclador and others who refuses to admit that many Italian units fought well in North Africa. The fact that some Italian battalions overwhelmed their adversaries at Alemein is certainly the tip of the iceberg for these Italian successes were unknown in the post war literature in English-speaking countries, and have only just come to light thanks to some people who have dug deep. These fairly recent relevations should not be deleted like noclador has just done. This individual even had the nerve to remove references/evidence in the form of profesor Sadkovich and other authors who pointed out that the Italians played an important role and were mainly responsable for taking large numbers of prisoners in the battle of Alemein on 22nd and 27th of July. This is clearly ganstarism on his part and let me repeat, he has committed a sin according to the wikipedia rules by also removing a number of verifiable sources in the page about the first battle of Alemein that proved the Italians played an important part. This individual is guilty of perpetuating the myth about the Italians in North Africa like the first lot of writers (many of whom were biased or ill informed generals) in the English-speaking world. Reading that page about Alemein makes you believe the Italians played a ridiculously small part and the Germans did all the fighting while the Italians did all the surrendering. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.172.105.49 ( talk) 01:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
I was much suprised to find out that the Italian army defeated a number of Commonwealth units at Alamein. Of course that information is no longer visible, due to vandalism? I believe readers need to know about the successes at battalion-level of the Sabratha, Trieste and Trento at El Alamein. After all these battalions were representative of their divisions and the perception out there is that these divisions simply 'melted away in the fighting' but in reality these divisions rallied and indeed fought well. Sadkovich pointed this out and extracts from his work about the Italians at El Alamein, that were available for all to see in Wikepedia, have been removed by noclador who sees his work as an 'incovenient truth'. I have just pointed this out (as teresita100403) in the page about the First Battle of Alamein, that the Sabratha recovered her lost positions and that the Trento did the same in its sector, but I gather both edits will be removed by vandals in the disguise of editors. I say goodbye for now but encourage everybody, including noclador and his team of puppets to stop 'sweeping the truth under the carpet,' and to read the following extract(p.141-142)from World War II in Europe, Africa, and the Americas, with General Sources: A Handbook of Literature and Research(by Loyd E. Lee and Robin D. S. Higham, Greenwood Publishing Group, 1997, ISBN 0313293252):
Why is it that we never talk of the Littorio that fought as good as the Ariete.Never mind I have aggregated the lines required to tidy the page and also about what Napoleon thanked of the Italians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.138.139.174 ( talk) 07:24, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
The problem with the "heroic" italian units, is that they are nothing near the big shadow of incompetence and failures. Italy was unable to control the Mediterranean, even with a bigger navy. They failed to conquer the Balkans. Failed to see Malta as a vital point in the Africa war.They failed even to HOLD their Africa colonies. They even failed to use Tobruk as a supply port. In the large scope, Italy was useless as an ally. But yes, they had heroic units, most of them under Rommel's command, but they are flickers of light in a big darkness. - PHW. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.116.136.146 ( talk) 01:22, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi, regarding 4 or 6 or 7 divisions: I was confused by "four seven divisions" so I looked at Italian invasion of Egypt article were it states that 6 divisions were involved (see footnote 5) - namely:
the footnote also states "other than the 1st Blackshirt, the other three appear to have hung back" - so three advanced and three hung back; yet the text contradicts this and states "Slowly the mass of four Italian divisions marched through the (Halfaya) pass..." hmm,... your quote states "with four divisions and one armoured group crossing the border." all together I assume that four is the correct number of divisions crossing the border with two in reserve... what I know for sure is that the 1st Libyan, 2nd Libyan, 1st Blackshirt and Maletti Group entered Egypt - do you have any idea which was the fourth division to participate in the invasion of Egypt? -- noclador ( talk) 03:17, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Is the first map of 1940 or 1941? I am adding the image to Italian Unification as 1940, per the file's title. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.121.183.72 ( talk) 02:28, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
Since you guys seem to know about this subject, File:Italian empire 1940.PNG in ( Kingdom of Italy (1861–1946)#Foreign and colonial policy (1922-1946)). This file I labeled 1939 in Italian Unification. If it is 1940, the month, or at least the season, of both this file and the previous should be known. Otherwise, having two 1940 maps might seem redundant.-- 189.121.183.72 ( talk) 00:36, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
My problem with the section now is that it sounds like someone fighting a ghost. There's very little angled towards why or even if the Italians have a bad reputation, and a whole lot of why that is dead wrong. If you don't establish exactly how bad the perception of the Italians are, all this stuff basically sounds like a commercial for the World War II Italian military, which is incredibly silly. If it's not established, the particular military action where they had some success could be mentioned elsewhere as part of just their actions. Am I alone in this? -- DeviantCharles ( talk) 08:10, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
This section needs to stay for reasons clearly outlined above (here). Much of the published history on this topic is subject to (or based on) an unbalanced amount of propaganda, so an attempt to disseminate between fact and the rest is warranted. However, I believe DeviantCharles is correct in saying that this section needs work. About a year ago I started writing something along the style of my edits for the initial section of the article (Outbreak of World War II) - note that the edits there worked in with content previously written by others rather than destroy their contributions (which also results in a longer research & writing process, for me anyway) - to address the causes of resulting perception. But I became busy and ran out of energy before I could get it to that standard (anything less resulted in personal attacks) - so it remains unfinished. I will eventually finish it, but it could be a while. Irrespective, the current content is sufficiently/amply referenced so it should remain - it just needs copy editing and words that provide the appropriate perspective. Deletion of verifiable referenced material really is not acceptable. In the meantime, if you have an issue with the section, why not help try to improve it? Romaioi ( talk) 15:38, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
Hi again! Ok, maybe I'm too close to the topic, but I hope this addresses your concerns in some way. I thought the undertone of the restructured section is that there is a trend literature whereby Italian involvement is being assessed more thoroughly with more balanced information being offered. Given that some early works have also provided balanced assessments (e.g Wilmott, Bauer) and that officially sponsored histories directly comment that propaganda has influenced the histories, I think it’s hardly a fringe view. I doubt it’s a fringe view in Italy (I struggle to read Italian so rely exclusively on English texts, so cannot say for sure). The objective was as per Stetired’s comments – whilst written from the Italian POV as objectively as possible, it is a counterweight to what is commonly perceived.
The section does, through the footnotes, provide examples of what has been said in the histories. I feel that if we elaborate on the opposing viewpoint this would become a much larger section. That being said, I thought of a sentence that could be added (will insert), and if anyone else has ideas for content, please contribute.
The opposing view is pretty simple: "The Italians were woefully unprepared (true) they attacked the French, British and the Greeks (rarely mentioned, as are Russia and East Africa) ran from the field against much smaller opposition, then the Germans stepped in and took over, following which the Italians either didn't participate or comically got in the way." (Honestly, given my closeness to the subject, I’m not sure how best to present a serious version of this. But does it really need stating?) Rarely is justification for such asserstions offered in texts purporting this view - they are simply stated as fact to deal with it quickly. When a text has so much detail in other areas why question such a seamingly minor component? Trace the reference trail and where does it lead? But if a text cannot be consistent in the "facts" they present (as per the example) shouldn't it be questioned? When texts fail to mention the mere presence of the largest contingent do they deserve serious consideration?
I believe there is more to the why (partly my view so not acceptable in the article):
Sincerely, Romaioi ( talk) 15:35, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
Winston Churchill speech to the Chamber, Nov. 21 1942:"We really must bow in front of the rest of those who have been the lions of the Folgore Division" It should be noted, however, that the source of this statement has not been identified and that the House of Commons didn't even sit on 21 November 1942.[3]
BBC, Dec. 3rd 1942:" The last survivors of Folgore have been gathered without forces in the desert, none of them surrendered, no one left his weapon" This doesn't even make sense in English so is probably false as well.
I'm not sure why a user would add comments to the effect that the information is "probably false" rather than just deleting it or at the very least putting a [citation needed] against it... Brickie ( talk) 16:57, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
That Churchill ever said anything along the lines of this "Lions of the Folgore" stuff is an old urban myth to be found only on far-right Italian websites. He made no mention of them, nor was there any reason for him ever to have done. I myself removed this silliness from this article in June. There is no substance to this daft story. AlasdairGreen27 ( talk) 22:42, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
I note the recent efforts of Romaioi to consolidate and shorten the above section. The issue is that the detail is out of balance with the rest of the article which is in nature a summary. Taking all the detail down into footnotes does not appear to me to be satisfactory: it just makes it difficult to read. I would suggest that the best solution is to restrict the section to solely the existing first paragraph and to put the rest into a new article titled "Reputation of Italian fighting efficiency during World War II " linked with a {{Main|Reputation of Italian fighting efficiency during World War II}} at the head of the section (reflecting the layout of many of the other sections of this article). Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 10:38, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
Oh boy this section again. Aside from the fact it's still dueling with phantoms - it should at least set out, with quotes, the "traditional" scholarship this section is attempting to refute in more than just the footnotes - this section is conflating two quite separate issues: Whether the individual Italian soldiers fought bravely or not, and whether the Italian armed forces as a whole were effective. It is quite compatible to say that Italian forces were largely ineffective in the war, but individual Italians fought bravely!
The section starts off by raising the "traditional" point as being one of effectiveness - "Controversy on the reputation of Italian fighting efficiency", "Allied press reports of Italian military prowess," "the actions of the Italians have been largely ignored or distorted as a result," etc. Yet most of the comments afterward focus on Italian courage despite bad equipment, poor coordination with Germany, bad supplies, bad leadership, etc. But all of these are real problems as far as army effectiveness! It's not like they don't "count" somehow, having better preparation / logistics / equipment / leadership are real assets for an army. It DOES reflect poorly on 1940 Italy that they can start an unprovoked war of aggression against Greece because Mussolini was jealous of Hitler or the like, and then utterly fail in their own war of choice; that's a terrific failure in high command to not be prepared properly. The "reputation of Italian military prowess" deservedly should take a black mark for that (and the Greek war section in fact already weirdly praises the Italian soldiers as "martyrs..." I know what they're getting at, but that still seems a bit TOO nice to an invading force).
Anyway, I feel that this section should clearly differentiate these two issues; if Italians fought bravely in North Africa yet were defeated anyway because of poor equipment, they still weren't overly effective. Flip side, the reputation for cowardice should be squarely addressed rather than hid in the footnotes, and that can be refuted with the current material, but making it clear that is solely concerning the individual Italian soldiers. SnowFire ( talk) 18:02, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
(de-indent) Thanks for your reply. I suppose I should have been more specific: Yes, I know that traditional scholarship has been dismissive of Italians. The problem is that the section itself doesn't make this clear. More generally, I am of the same opinion of Blodance the Seeker linked above. It's a warning sign if multiple independent Wikipedia editors who aren't experts look at this section and say "Yes, it's referenced, but the POV here is so strong as to be worthy of talk page comment." As Blodance noted the section might as well be titled "Why historians are WRONG and their low assessment of the Italian military is unjust." And... I'm still not convinced that this is wrong, at least insofar as actual military effectiveness. The Italian high command & military made numerous horrible horrible mistakes throughout the war (sure, the British made mistakes too) and also undeniably lost (unlike the British). This should be mentioned more prominently!
I'll take a shot at editing the section. Please feel free to revert / modify as I'm not overly familiar with the sources quoted if I mix things up. SnowFire ( talk) 19:03, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
Also as a brief other note. I just plain don't believe some of the earliest statements in the section, and I'm not sure if this is Walker overplaying the event or the Wikipedi article overstating Walker. I'm entirely willing to believe that the early defeat of the Italian army in North Africa, and the propaganda resulting from it, were key blows to the image of the Italian military in English-language sources. But the section seems to imply it's the ONLY bad thing that happened to the Italians, and was endlessly reflected in a hall of mirrors to hide all the secret Italian successes elsewhere. I just don't think this is likely - Musolinni declaring war AFTER the French had practically been defeated, for example, I don't think impressed anyone, nor did the campaign in Greece. SnowFire ( talk) 19:38, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
As noted above and in the tag, it's not clear this even merits a refutation, it's just wrong. Moved to the talk page for posterity in case others disagree and/or want to bring this somewhere more relevant.
Some historians believe that Mussolini was induced to enter the war against the Allies by secret negotiations with British Prime Minister Winston Churchill, with whom he had an active mail correspondence between September 1939 and June 1940. [1] The journalist Luciano Garibaldi wrote that "in those letters (which disappeared at Lake Como in 1945) Churchill may have extorted Mussolini to enter the war to mitigate Hitler's demands and dissuade him from continuing hostilities against Great Britain as France was inexorably moving toward defeat. In light of this, Mussolini could urge Hitler turn against the USSR, the common enemy of both Churchill and Mussolini". However, the limited correspondence on which these claims are based has been inspected and rejected as false. [2]
{{
cite book}}
: External link in |title=
(
help)"In fact, the Greeks planned to use the bulk of their forces to hold the Italians, but to offer only token resistance against the Germans, thus allowing the Germans an easy victory in Greece."
Does the source offer an explanation as to why the Greek's, apparently, decided to allow their country be overrun? EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 03:44, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Enigma, why did you undo may contribution below?
Much of the military literature written by American, British and even German historians, both during and immediately after the war and even up to recent times, has been informed by a marked anti-Italianism based on national stereotypes, patriotic jingoism and racial triumphalism.
The source and the veracity of this statement can be found in another wikipedia article called itself: "Anti-italianism" which has a section dealing specifically with WW2. Here is an excerpt:
Because many writers have uncritically repeated stereotypes shared by their sources, biases and prejudices have taken on the status of objective observations, including the idea that the Germans and British were the only belligerents in the Mediterranean after Italian setbacks in early 1941. Sadkovich questioned this point of view in Of Myths and Men and The Italian Navy, but persistent stereotypes, including that of the incompetent Italian, are well entrenched in the literature, from Puleston's early The Influence of Sea Power, to Gooch's Italian Military Incompetence, to more recent publications by Mack Smith, Knox and Sullivan. Wartime bias in early British and American histories, which focused on German operations, dismissed Italian forces as inept and or unimportant, and viewed Germany as the pivotal power in Europe during the interwar period.
So why did you undo it? It is a statement supported by another wikipedia article in which I have linked for readers themselves to read and follow up on? It's one thing deleting unsourced and unsubstantiated material - it quite another deleting material that is actually found and linked to a wikipedia article. Please explain and justify your action and reasoning in removing it AnnalesSchool ( talk) 01:13, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
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Correct bad english but don't revert.All you are defending is unsoureced.I posted some new valid sources.I don't like easy reverting without valid references or war edit games. Kingofwoods ( talk) 09:42, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
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One of the most interesting counterfactuals emerging in World War II history is what would have happened if Italy had been engaged earlier. The tantalizing prospect glimmers that if Britain and France had been able to declare war on Italy as well as Germany in 1939, Mussolini's house of cards could have been torn apart before Germany could have intervened [and German intervention itself would have been a distraction from the upcoming campaign in the West].
There is an even more compelling counterfactual: the British and French gave way to Italy in its Abyssinian adventure, partly, it seems, because they were genuinely impressed by the evident power of Fascist Italy. But it was a sham then, just as much as it was a sham later. One can argue that the history of the 20th Century would have been radically different [for the better] had Fascist Italy been suppressed in the middle of the 1930s!
From this counterfactual comes a significant question: we know now how feeble Italy was, but why did the military advisors of the day not realize this? The answers to this question have the potential to illuminate not only past history, but also many of the perplexing military questions we face today.
Speculations! Speculations! I think it's best just to concentrate on "what is" rather than "what could have been". Knowing "what is", is hard enough. If only Churchill developed gout earlier... .? If only the Russian winter hadn't been so severe...?
AnnalesSchool (
talk) 01:51, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
"However, on June 10, 1940, as Rommel reached the English Channel, ..."
1. German forces reached the English Channel, surrounding the French and British armies in northeast France and the low countries on May 20, 1940, not June 10. Indeed, by June 4 the Dunkirk evacuation was over and pocket had surrendered.
2. Rommel was only a division commander in the 1940 campaign, and his panzer division was NOT the one that reached the English Channel on May 20. If you want to attribute the reaching of the channel to a German commander, the appropriate person is Kluge, commander of Panzer Group Kluge and in control of the panzer forces that did reach the channel.
Before Italy decalared war, there was a massive and highly complex set of naval demonstations performed with Hitler in attendance. I remember reading about something like 70 Submarines firing deck guns in formation, then submersing and surfacing in perfect formation. There was also some record-breaking fleet sail-past at something like 37 Knots. Does anyone know the details of this, and if so, should it be included in the article? -- Zegoma beach 20:56, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I've taken out the Tone tag because I don't see what is wrong with the tone of this article and because I don't think it appropriate this tag should be added by an unidentified IP address. I feel the same way about the citation tag but will leave it pending debate. This article is a summary article and each section has an underlying 'Main article' in Wikipedia cited. The contents therefore summarise the underlying articles and don't need citations. If there is a problem with citations this should be addressed in the underlying articles. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 11:34, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I must say, the notion that two states formerly at war that although for a long time now at peace have failed to agree a peace treaty somehow makes them still "theoretically" at war seems to me rather preposterous. There is no realistic sense, even theoretical, in which one can claim that Italy is still at war with Japan. (This is not even comparable to the two Koreas, which still have a significant military buildup targeted against each other, and in the case of which a return to hostilities is still conceivable -- Italy and Japan do not target each other militarily, and the thought of a resumption of hostilities between them is simply unimaginable.) It seems far saner to say that a peace treaty is not necessary to end a state of war (even a "theoretical" state of war), than to claim that Italy and Japan are still in any sense (however theoretical) at war. -- SJK ( talk) 08:50, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
The history of Italy during the Second World War does not begin with the Nazi invasion of Poland nor with Mussolini's 10 June declaration. While I don't have the time to write this section now, I would hope someone would edit this piece to add Italy's invasions of Ethiopia (1935), Albania, and other territories, without which it is not really possible to understand Italy's position in 1939. Italy's irredentism and Mussolini's ideas about resurrecting a "Roman Empire" begin much earlier than Poland and should be reflected on this page. While Italy may not have been allied with Germany and fighting Britain and France right away, its actions in the Mediterranean and Red Sea were very much a part of the situation in Europe that led to war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.254.241.30 ( talk) 22:37, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Who gives him the right to decide that the broadcasts by Radio Rome and Radio Berlin concerning the role of Axis forces are unreliable and of dubious nature. I'd hate to see him work for BBC. What has he got the mentality of a child?? Isn't it obvious that historians would've discovered by now that Radio Berlin and Radio Rome had got it all wrong, inventing units that didn't exist and placing them in wrong areas, and ofcourse, getting the dates, timing and weather all wrong when describing actions. Nick Dowling, get real, and have a read of the pages that deal with "Siege Of Tobruk", "Operation Brevity", "Operation Crusader", etcetera, to see that you got it all wrong mate. GENERALMESSE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Generalmesse ( talk • contribs) 03:25, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
This is a sensitive topic for some. From what I have learned, there are some that have essentially spammed and vandalised the page with unfounded bias and propaganda. There are some that have been battling the propaganda. Others have been constructive. Yet, there are some that are aware that this is a topic with a historical legacy of being incorrectly depicted and simply wish to get the facts out.
Further there are others who would not be aware that a ubiquitous number of books have dismissed the Italian involvement in the war. For them it may be difficult to believe as we inherently grew up to believe that non-fiction books are generally gospel. Well, even a technical text book or the most cutting–edge work is prone to mistakes. The whole premise of scientist/philosophical reporting is about constructive critique in order to build on what we currently know. There is plenty to warrant a reassessment of the reputation of Italian soldiers. Their memories are equally as worthy as those of the other participants. To not appraise their involvement based on facts is a disservice to them, and also denigrates those who fought bravely against them. It always cuts both ways.
I would hope that if anyone has any concerns regarding the content in this subsection that they present their arguments here. Lets work together, rather than against each other. Feel free to comment.
I will start with an excerpt to illustrate some of the relevant background, and provided justification for the subsection. This comes from relevant fragments form the first 3 pages of: Walker, Ian W. (2003). Iron Hulls, Iron Hearts; Mussolini's Elite Armoured Divisions in North Africa. Ramsbury: The Crowood Press. ISBN 1-86126-646-4.;
I recommend this book as part of ones library to all who are interested in the North African campaign, in particular.
I’ll state now that I will reinsert verifiable statements that are deleted, within reason.
Romaioi ( talk) 16:20, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
There have been a number of edits recently giving examples of brave battalion actions. If the point of this section is to show that the "general" reputation of Italian fighting prowess was misrepresented during and immediately after the war, then citing a few individual battalion actions won't help. What we need is much broader evidence - opinions of allied generals, German generals and later historians - of which there is a convincing amount of in the article already. I'm tempted to go through this section and remove the "micro detail" (subject to any reaction here to this comment) which at present is swamping and in my opinion diluting the broader evidence. After all, at battalion level it's easy to quote just as many incidents where battalions made a poor showing. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 12:49, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
What has happened to this article, is cleary gangstarism on the part of noclador and others who refuses to admit that many Italian units fought well in North Africa. The fact that some Italian battalions overwhelmed their adversaries at Alemein is certainly the tip of the iceberg for these Italian successes were unknown in the post war literature in English-speaking countries, and have only just come to light thanks to some people who have dug deep. These fairly recent relevations should not be deleted like noclador has just done. This individual even had the nerve to remove references/evidence in the form of profesor Sadkovich and other authors who pointed out that the Italians played an important role and were mainly responsable for taking large numbers of prisoners in the battle of Alemein on 22nd and 27th of July. This is clearly ganstarism on his part and let me repeat, he has committed a sin according to the wikipedia rules by also removing a number of verifiable sources in the page about the first battle of Alemein that proved the Italians played an important part. This individual is guilty of perpetuating the myth about the Italians in North Africa like the first lot of writers (many of whom were biased or ill informed generals) in the English-speaking world. Reading that page about Alemein makes you believe the Italians played a ridiculously small part and the Germans did all the fighting while the Italians did all the surrendering. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.172.105.49 ( talk) 01:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
I was much suprised to find out that the Italian army defeated a number of Commonwealth units at Alamein. Of course that information is no longer visible, due to vandalism? I believe readers need to know about the successes at battalion-level of the Sabratha, Trieste and Trento at El Alamein. After all these battalions were representative of their divisions and the perception out there is that these divisions simply 'melted away in the fighting' but in reality these divisions rallied and indeed fought well. Sadkovich pointed this out and extracts from his work about the Italians at El Alamein, that were available for all to see in Wikepedia, have been removed by noclador who sees his work as an 'incovenient truth'. I have just pointed this out (as teresita100403) in the page about the First Battle of Alamein, that the Sabratha recovered her lost positions and that the Trento did the same in its sector, but I gather both edits will be removed by vandals in the disguise of editors. I say goodbye for now but encourage everybody, including noclador and his team of puppets to stop 'sweeping the truth under the carpet,' and to read the following extract(p.141-142)from World War II in Europe, Africa, and the Americas, with General Sources: A Handbook of Literature and Research(by Loyd E. Lee and Robin D. S. Higham, Greenwood Publishing Group, 1997, ISBN 0313293252):
Why is it that we never talk of the Littorio that fought as good as the Ariete.Never mind I have aggregated the lines required to tidy the page and also about what Napoleon thanked of the Italians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.138.139.174 ( talk) 07:24, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
The problem with the "heroic" italian units, is that they are nothing near the big shadow of incompetence and failures. Italy was unable to control the Mediterranean, even with a bigger navy. They failed to conquer the Balkans. Failed to see Malta as a vital point in the Africa war.They failed even to HOLD their Africa colonies. They even failed to use Tobruk as a supply port. In the large scope, Italy was useless as an ally. But yes, they had heroic units, most of them under Rommel's command, but they are flickers of light in a big darkness. - PHW. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.116.136.146 ( talk) 01:22, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi, regarding 4 or 6 or 7 divisions: I was confused by "four seven divisions" so I looked at Italian invasion of Egypt article were it states that 6 divisions were involved (see footnote 5) - namely:
the footnote also states "other than the 1st Blackshirt, the other three appear to have hung back" - so three advanced and three hung back; yet the text contradicts this and states "Slowly the mass of four Italian divisions marched through the (Halfaya) pass..." hmm,... your quote states "with four divisions and one armoured group crossing the border." all together I assume that four is the correct number of divisions crossing the border with two in reserve... what I know for sure is that the 1st Libyan, 2nd Libyan, 1st Blackshirt and Maletti Group entered Egypt - do you have any idea which was the fourth division to participate in the invasion of Egypt? -- noclador ( talk) 03:17, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Is the first map of 1940 or 1941? I am adding the image to Italian Unification as 1940, per the file's title. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.121.183.72 ( talk) 02:28, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
Since you guys seem to know about this subject, File:Italian empire 1940.PNG in ( Kingdom of Italy (1861–1946)#Foreign and colonial policy (1922-1946)). This file I labeled 1939 in Italian Unification. If it is 1940, the month, or at least the season, of both this file and the previous should be known. Otherwise, having two 1940 maps might seem redundant.-- 189.121.183.72 ( talk) 00:36, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
My problem with the section now is that it sounds like someone fighting a ghost. There's very little angled towards why or even if the Italians have a bad reputation, and a whole lot of why that is dead wrong. If you don't establish exactly how bad the perception of the Italians are, all this stuff basically sounds like a commercial for the World War II Italian military, which is incredibly silly. If it's not established, the particular military action where they had some success could be mentioned elsewhere as part of just their actions. Am I alone in this? -- DeviantCharles ( talk) 08:10, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
This section needs to stay for reasons clearly outlined above (here). Much of the published history on this topic is subject to (or based on) an unbalanced amount of propaganda, so an attempt to disseminate between fact and the rest is warranted. However, I believe DeviantCharles is correct in saying that this section needs work. About a year ago I started writing something along the style of my edits for the initial section of the article (Outbreak of World War II) - note that the edits there worked in with content previously written by others rather than destroy their contributions (which also results in a longer research & writing process, for me anyway) - to address the causes of resulting perception. But I became busy and ran out of energy before I could get it to that standard (anything less resulted in personal attacks) - so it remains unfinished. I will eventually finish it, but it could be a while. Irrespective, the current content is sufficiently/amply referenced so it should remain - it just needs copy editing and words that provide the appropriate perspective. Deletion of verifiable referenced material really is not acceptable. In the meantime, if you have an issue with the section, why not help try to improve it? Romaioi ( talk) 15:38, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
Hi again! Ok, maybe I'm too close to the topic, but I hope this addresses your concerns in some way. I thought the undertone of the restructured section is that there is a trend literature whereby Italian involvement is being assessed more thoroughly with more balanced information being offered. Given that some early works have also provided balanced assessments (e.g Wilmott, Bauer) and that officially sponsored histories directly comment that propaganda has influenced the histories, I think it’s hardly a fringe view. I doubt it’s a fringe view in Italy (I struggle to read Italian so rely exclusively on English texts, so cannot say for sure). The objective was as per Stetired’s comments – whilst written from the Italian POV as objectively as possible, it is a counterweight to what is commonly perceived.
The section does, through the footnotes, provide examples of what has been said in the histories. I feel that if we elaborate on the opposing viewpoint this would become a much larger section. That being said, I thought of a sentence that could be added (will insert), and if anyone else has ideas for content, please contribute.
The opposing view is pretty simple: "The Italians were woefully unprepared (true) they attacked the French, British and the Greeks (rarely mentioned, as are Russia and East Africa) ran from the field against much smaller opposition, then the Germans stepped in and took over, following which the Italians either didn't participate or comically got in the way." (Honestly, given my closeness to the subject, I’m not sure how best to present a serious version of this. But does it really need stating?) Rarely is justification for such asserstions offered in texts purporting this view - they are simply stated as fact to deal with it quickly. When a text has so much detail in other areas why question such a seamingly minor component? Trace the reference trail and where does it lead? But if a text cannot be consistent in the "facts" they present (as per the example) shouldn't it be questioned? When texts fail to mention the mere presence of the largest contingent do they deserve serious consideration?
I believe there is more to the why (partly my view so not acceptable in the article):
Sincerely, Romaioi ( talk) 15:35, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
Winston Churchill speech to the Chamber, Nov. 21 1942:"We really must bow in front of the rest of those who have been the lions of the Folgore Division" It should be noted, however, that the source of this statement has not been identified and that the House of Commons didn't even sit on 21 November 1942.[3]
BBC, Dec. 3rd 1942:" The last survivors of Folgore have been gathered without forces in the desert, none of them surrendered, no one left his weapon" This doesn't even make sense in English so is probably false as well.
I'm not sure why a user would add comments to the effect that the information is "probably false" rather than just deleting it or at the very least putting a [citation needed] against it... Brickie ( talk) 16:57, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
That Churchill ever said anything along the lines of this "Lions of the Folgore" stuff is an old urban myth to be found only on far-right Italian websites. He made no mention of them, nor was there any reason for him ever to have done. I myself removed this silliness from this article in June. There is no substance to this daft story. AlasdairGreen27 ( talk) 22:42, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
I note the recent efforts of Romaioi to consolidate and shorten the above section. The issue is that the detail is out of balance with the rest of the article which is in nature a summary. Taking all the detail down into footnotes does not appear to me to be satisfactory: it just makes it difficult to read. I would suggest that the best solution is to restrict the section to solely the existing first paragraph and to put the rest into a new article titled "Reputation of Italian fighting efficiency during World War II " linked with a {{Main|Reputation of Italian fighting efficiency during World War II}} at the head of the section (reflecting the layout of many of the other sections of this article). Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 10:38, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
Oh boy this section again. Aside from the fact it's still dueling with phantoms - it should at least set out, with quotes, the "traditional" scholarship this section is attempting to refute in more than just the footnotes - this section is conflating two quite separate issues: Whether the individual Italian soldiers fought bravely or not, and whether the Italian armed forces as a whole were effective. It is quite compatible to say that Italian forces were largely ineffective in the war, but individual Italians fought bravely!
The section starts off by raising the "traditional" point as being one of effectiveness - "Controversy on the reputation of Italian fighting efficiency", "Allied press reports of Italian military prowess," "the actions of the Italians have been largely ignored or distorted as a result," etc. Yet most of the comments afterward focus on Italian courage despite bad equipment, poor coordination with Germany, bad supplies, bad leadership, etc. But all of these are real problems as far as army effectiveness! It's not like they don't "count" somehow, having better preparation / logistics / equipment / leadership are real assets for an army. It DOES reflect poorly on 1940 Italy that they can start an unprovoked war of aggression against Greece because Mussolini was jealous of Hitler or the like, and then utterly fail in their own war of choice; that's a terrific failure in high command to not be prepared properly. The "reputation of Italian military prowess" deservedly should take a black mark for that (and the Greek war section in fact already weirdly praises the Italian soldiers as "martyrs..." I know what they're getting at, but that still seems a bit TOO nice to an invading force).
Anyway, I feel that this section should clearly differentiate these two issues; if Italians fought bravely in North Africa yet were defeated anyway because of poor equipment, they still weren't overly effective. Flip side, the reputation for cowardice should be squarely addressed rather than hid in the footnotes, and that can be refuted with the current material, but making it clear that is solely concerning the individual Italian soldiers. SnowFire ( talk) 18:02, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
(de-indent) Thanks for your reply. I suppose I should have been more specific: Yes, I know that traditional scholarship has been dismissive of Italians. The problem is that the section itself doesn't make this clear. More generally, I am of the same opinion of Blodance the Seeker linked above. It's a warning sign if multiple independent Wikipedia editors who aren't experts look at this section and say "Yes, it's referenced, but the POV here is so strong as to be worthy of talk page comment." As Blodance noted the section might as well be titled "Why historians are WRONG and their low assessment of the Italian military is unjust." And... I'm still not convinced that this is wrong, at least insofar as actual military effectiveness. The Italian high command & military made numerous horrible horrible mistakes throughout the war (sure, the British made mistakes too) and also undeniably lost (unlike the British). This should be mentioned more prominently!
I'll take a shot at editing the section. Please feel free to revert / modify as I'm not overly familiar with the sources quoted if I mix things up. SnowFire ( talk) 19:03, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
Also as a brief other note. I just plain don't believe some of the earliest statements in the section, and I'm not sure if this is Walker overplaying the event or the Wikipedi article overstating Walker. I'm entirely willing to believe that the early defeat of the Italian army in North Africa, and the propaganda resulting from it, were key blows to the image of the Italian military in English-language sources. But the section seems to imply it's the ONLY bad thing that happened to the Italians, and was endlessly reflected in a hall of mirrors to hide all the secret Italian successes elsewhere. I just don't think this is likely - Musolinni declaring war AFTER the French had practically been defeated, for example, I don't think impressed anyone, nor did the campaign in Greece. SnowFire ( talk) 19:38, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
As noted above and in the tag, it's not clear this even merits a refutation, it's just wrong. Moved to the talk page for posterity in case others disagree and/or want to bring this somewhere more relevant.
Some historians believe that Mussolini was induced to enter the war against the Allies by secret negotiations with British Prime Minister Winston Churchill, with whom he had an active mail correspondence between September 1939 and June 1940. [1] The journalist Luciano Garibaldi wrote that "in those letters (which disappeared at Lake Como in 1945) Churchill may have extorted Mussolini to enter the war to mitigate Hitler's demands and dissuade him from continuing hostilities against Great Britain as France was inexorably moving toward defeat. In light of this, Mussolini could urge Hitler turn against the USSR, the common enemy of both Churchill and Mussolini". However, the limited correspondence on which these claims are based has been inspected and rejected as false. [2]
{{
cite book}}
: External link in |title=
(
help)"In fact, the Greeks planned to use the bulk of their forces to hold the Italians, but to offer only token resistance against the Germans, thus allowing the Germans an easy victory in Greece."
Does the source offer an explanation as to why the Greek's, apparently, decided to allow their country be overrun? EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 03:44, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Enigma, why did you undo may contribution below?
Much of the military literature written by American, British and even German historians, both during and immediately after the war and even up to recent times, has been informed by a marked anti-Italianism based on national stereotypes, patriotic jingoism and racial triumphalism.
The source and the veracity of this statement can be found in another wikipedia article called itself: "Anti-italianism" which has a section dealing specifically with WW2. Here is an excerpt:
Because many writers have uncritically repeated stereotypes shared by their sources, biases and prejudices have taken on the status of objective observations, including the idea that the Germans and British were the only belligerents in the Mediterranean after Italian setbacks in early 1941. Sadkovich questioned this point of view in Of Myths and Men and The Italian Navy, but persistent stereotypes, including that of the incompetent Italian, are well entrenched in the literature, from Puleston's early The Influence of Sea Power, to Gooch's Italian Military Incompetence, to more recent publications by Mack Smith, Knox and Sullivan. Wartime bias in early British and American histories, which focused on German operations, dismissed Italian forces as inept and or unimportant, and viewed Germany as the pivotal power in Europe during the interwar period.
So why did you undo it? It is a statement supported by another wikipedia article in which I have linked for readers themselves to read and follow up on? It's one thing deleting unsourced and unsubstantiated material - it quite another deleting material that is actually found and linked to a wikipedia article. Please explain and justify your action and reasoning in removing it AnnalesSchool ( talk) 01:13, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
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Correct bad english but don't revert.All you are defending is unsoureced.I posted some new valid sources.I don't like easy reverting without valid references or war edit games. Kingofwoods ( talk) 09:42, 14 November 2017 (UTC)