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Guys - the book says "Bulgarian Folk Songs" on its cover - what is there to dispute at all? I mean, Shakespeare's plays don't have "English" written on the cover - you are free to claim those I guess.
If the Macedonian consciousness was "not developed", then you should remove the double Bulgarian/Macedonian in the lead. On top of, they were quite clear that they regard themselves as Bulgarians and consider the Macedonians a subset of the Bulgarians - do you want me to paste other pages of Bulgarian Folk Songs or what? I have taken the double Bulgarian/Macedonian as a compromise to avoid future quarrelling but if you intend to play your horse around, I can also pursue a harder policy - they, Parlichev and Shapkarev have left enough evidence of what they thought about their language (Bulgarian), about themselves (Bulgarians) and about the "Macedonians" (a subset of the Bulgarians = Macedonian Bulgarians). The fact that you wrote that bullshit about the "dialect of Struga" on which they "wrote" their songs (they collected them, darling) clearly shows your intents and knowledge on the subject. VMORO 00:22, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Bomac, I will remind you that "wrote" was your mistake and in BG Wikipedia too. :) ( bg:Беседа:Константин Миладинов - Obviously, you meant to write "collect" too). Miladinov Brothers considered all of their songs Bulgarian. It includes all of the songs - from present Bulgaria, Republic of Macedonia and Northern Greece. Miladinov Brothers define their language and the language of the songs like Bulgarian. Why do you separate the songs according your own present concepts? You can create a separete section about your opiinion about Miladinov Brothers or the predominant oppinion in Republic of Macedonia, but please do not transfer present political reality to the our common history.-- AKeckarov 18:38, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Bojan, I think that exactly here you are in a mistake. The term Bulgarian wasn't a part from some political reality in the middle of ХІХ century - at least not in today's meaning. There was not a BG state, BG church, even geographical region Bulgaria (sometimes it was Moesia(Misia), but not Macedonia). The example with Miladinov Brothers clearly shows one: the term "Bulgarian" had ethic meaning. Please, look at their life and work without emotions: In their capital work they publishes a materials from verious Bulgarian regions - Macedonia, Thrace and Moesia (if we accept that Sofia is in Upper Moesia, which is discutable), they consider their people as Bulgarian (as a part of Sout Slavs) etc. If it is not an evidence that the term Bulgarian is an ethnical reality according Miladinov Brothers I really don't know what means "ethnical reality". Regards, -- AKeckarov 09:18, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Do NPOV mean that we can distort the facts? I am not hindering to express how Miladinov Brothers are counted in Republic of Macedonia (not Macedonia, but only in the Republic). This is a fact and you can create a separate section and explain this. But there are one certain fact: Miladinov Brothers was the activists of Bulgarian National Revival. This is not only my assertion, but their. Many years later somebody decides that they aren't Bulgarians (present doctrine in Republic of Macedonia). But why we have to accept one political doctrine in Wikipedia?
P.S. Who exactly states (historian) that in the Middle ages the term "Bulgarian" was used to describe all the South Slavs? Excuse me, but it is very strange for me? There are a few exceptions (and a few historians with political purposes) but I think that you gone too, too far. I do not understand Macedonistic logic: for the time when was BG church and state, you state that the term Bulgarian used due to them. For the time when was not BG political institutions and Bulgarians from Macedonia considered themselves like Bulgarians you state that exactly this shows Bulgarian are political term :). However, Miladinov Brothers considered them as Bulgarians and if you read their book (please do it), you'll understand weather they used the term Bulgarian in political or ethnical sense. Regards, -- AKeckarov 16:24, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't exactly recall what is a "Macedonistic logic". I'm sure I'm going to find the answer in Bulgaria :-) Cheers, Bomac 17:18, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Bojan, Do you state that Miladinov Bros had a Macedonian ethnic consciousness? That they was not Bulgarians? From where are these "many historians" which state that Miladiniv brothers was not Bulgarians? I see that it is difficult to somebody who accepts Macedonistic logic to imagine that the MK intelectuals considered them as Bulgarians in ХІХ, but read Perface of the Folk songs of Miladinov Brothers and you will understand the meaning of the term Bulgarian for them - One of the South Slavic people which are belonging Miladinov Brothers.-- AKeckarov 13:26, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Anton, I will repeat myself - CIRCUMSTANCES and the context of "Bulgarian". Nevertheless, they were talking on a Macedonian dialect (Struga dialect, which has not many similarities to Bulgarian), they were editing the songs on the phonetic script (not the etimological, which was in use in Bulgaria). And, I repeat, don't percept things on the yin-yang way. Cheers, Bomac 15:45, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
"Editing" does not mean only "writing", it means corrections, style, redaction etc. More, I can tell you that не е злато се што сјае, ofcourse, in the meaning of the usage of "Bulgarian" in that time. I know that you are a Bulgarian and think that everything where "Bulgarian" was written in those periods is actually something related to Bulgaria, but if you relax a little bit, you can understand what I mean.
P.S. If they were Bulgarians (in ethnic sense), they would have lectured their Collection, named as "Bulgarian folk songs" in the etimological script, which all people (who lived in today's Bulgaria territory in that period) used it then (and maybe nowadays). Bomac 19:23, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
You are speaking about stories? No matter, if you want retold stories, let we leave K. Miladinov to speak (about the transcription in the Collection):
"Правопис употребихме по возможноста најлесен и најсходен со произношението од словата; на пример вместо трите букви Ъ, Ь, Ѫ кои имает еднакво произношение, употребихме една Ѫ; напр. сѪнце, сѪрце (итн.). К‘де по грам. правила се пишит Ѫ, но се произносит а, се употреби последново. Еднакво се грижехме да предадиме верно народното произношение, по кое се водит тукашниот правопис; напр. млатЪ, потЪ, ретЪ (итн.) вм. младЪ, подЪ, редЪ (итн.). Еднакво човекот или човекѪт, вм, човЪкЪ-тЪ и др." итн.
All of this tells us that Konstantin was going in a way to establish the principle Write as you hear. There are many sentences in the book where he uses this: "Сиве почти песни се слушани од жени" or "От там одам у град Белограда" итн.
P.S. You know very well that many Bulgarian scientists have disputed the Collection, because of the dialects (Macedonian people's language) the songs are, dialects which are not suitable for the Bulgarian language. Cheers, Bomac 21:11, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
What that means: "maybe", "I guess"? You don't know the facts, but you make a suggestion and what is more important - you change the article. The Bulgarian public and scientific oppinion was not against the book and the dialects. Contemporaries like L. Karavelov, M. Drinov etc. welcomed this book. Who of them defined the dialects (NB! not one dialect) like strange Bulgarian? These dialects was regarded as Bulgarian (There was dialects not only from present Republic of Macedonia). If you asserts that somebody in BG scientific society doubted about their belonging do you think that it is good to point him?
About the script: This was a kirilic script which was in use among BG authors and publishers. Where is the problem?-- AKeckarov 14:38, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Strich3d, why are you pushing the fake picture from the soros archive, which has the top part truncated? Mr. Neutron 16:11, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
It is not fake picture, it is the original one. As you can see on your picture the word "B'lgraski" is not in the same line with other part of the text. It isn't even the same font. Your picture is a bulgarian falsification.-- strich3D 18:47, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
OK, I'm Bulgarian, too, and my impression is that the Miladinov brothers apparently were indeed Bulgarian, but let's consider Wikipedia's WP:NPOV policy for a second. It's clear that there is a controversy about whether they were Bulgarian or Macedonian. In this case, the NPOV policy reqires both POVs to be represented in proportion to their prevalence. So should the article really state that they were Bulgarian, as a fact, and then mention the Macedonian verison as an incorrect opinion? I think that this would only be permissible if the Macedonian POV could be regarded as a tiny minority view. But since no serious international scholars have been cited, all we have is the word of one little nation against the other. Certainly a 1937 article from Bulgarian nationalist newspaper "Zora" is not sufficient to change this, and using it, as well as the title of their collection etc., is original research (see WP:NOR) in any case. So I think the article should be more neutral. The main reason it isn't seems to be just that there are too few Macedonian editors here and they can't edit war efficiently enough.
P.S. I don't have so much time, so I won't come back to discuss this any further, but I hope that what I have said will be taken into account. -- 91.148.159.4 18:46, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Another grave innacuarcy; indeed the book has been republished in Macedonia, yet it has been done so in its original format, not editions, NOTHING. So when somebody finds a source to back this crazy claim, it will remain edited out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.87.56.76 ( talk) 06:06, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Reverting to Macedonian ethnicity without references is pure vandalism. Jingby ( talk) 16:27, 1 March 2009 (UTC
Please, stop reverting. Jingby ( talk) 08:03, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
There is a certain reason you write a book in 2008 and leave it as a whole to google books. You must've spent a whole day searching for it. It's so biased it can hardly be called a real work. It says that the Macedonian nation actually existed back when Samuel ruled the land and that Greek, Bulgarian and Serbian nationalists have been trying to deny this!!! What the? It's full of fringe views and so on. I've already read some of it through before (yeah, I have an interest in the field) and I can say it's total crap and contradicts most studies in this scientific area (even the pro-macedonistic ones). Besides the other 5 sources claim the opposite. -- Laveol T 11:27, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
I continued researching the issue. I first checked the 4 references supporting the Bulgarian nationhood of Miladinov brothers. The third and fourth reference did not discuss about the ethnicity and unfortunately I didn't find any info about the second reference. About the first reference (the letter of the Dimitar's daughter), I found the text written in Bulgarian posted at the famous promacedonia site: [3]. (Off the topic, if you want to laugh yourself, try the Google translate option that translates the text in English:)) [4]
I read the whole text, but it seems it represents the Dimitar's daughter view on the matter, not the view of the brothers itself. There is one quote about what Dimitar said for his brother. I tried to translate it to English, sorry if I didn't do it properly to the end (there are also such translations later in this post):
Нежни, безкрайно полюбовни са били отношенията между двамата братя. Моят брат Константин, заявявал баща ми на майка, е едно от най-хубавите цветя на българската градина.
There is a tender relationship between the two brothers, my father wanted to say to my mother: My brother Konstanting is one of the most beautiful flowers of the Bulgarian garden.
Then I checked what Macedonian sites are saying about the ethnicity of the Miladinov brothers.
О, колку ми е срам што на грчки ги изложувам своите македонски чувства и што одвај неодамна почнав да читам, да пишувам и да разбирам македонски. Но кој е причината? Грците-архиереи, кои ги изгореа насекаде македонските пергаментски книги: во манастирот Св. Наум (крај Охрид), во манастирот Кичевска Пречиста, во Трескавец (Златоврв), околу Битола, Преспа, Железна Река, Мариово, во Охридска Дебарца и во Дебар и во други места. Така грчките архиереи, осакатувајќи го македонското духовенство, ни го одзедоа драгоценото богатство на нашата народност и оттогаш се запазија само траги од македонските книги, чувани во засолнети места. [5]
I'm ashamed that I express my Macedonian feelings in Greek language and that I just started to read, write and understand Macedonian. But, what is the reason for that? It is the Greek archbishops, that burned the Macedonian books in the monastery of St. Naum (near Ohrid), in the monastery of Bogorodica Precista, Treskavec near Bitola, Prespa, Zelezna Reka, Mariovo, Ohridska Debarca, Debar and other places. Therefore, Greek archbishops took the most precious part of our nationality and since then we have just pieces of the Macedonian books, kept in hidden places.
На 8 јануари 1859 година Константин му пишуваше на бугарскиот поет и револуционер Раковски: "Ние Македончињата, недавно овде дојдени... неожидано получих Вашето писмо полно со искрена и горешча љубов кун отечеството ми". И додава покрај другото: "И ја имам много македонски песни, кои сакам да ги издадам малко подоцкна, зашчо сега не ми позвољават опстојателствата".
On 9 January 1859, Konstantin wrote to the Bulgarian poet and revolutionary Rakovski: We, Macedonians, that came here recently.. I got your letter full of sincere love for the fatherland… I have a lot of Macedonians songs that I want to publish a lithe later, because currently there are no adequate circumstances…
Ал. В. Рачински, …, во својата некролог - биографија за Миладиновци, објавена во весникот "Ден", број 21 од 3 март 1862 година, дека станува збор за "Зборник од македонски песни, навистина одлични", значи, наспроти сето тоа, Зборникот беше озаглавен "Блгарски народни песни", иако од 660-те песни објавени во него само 76 беа бугарски! Додека ја вршел последната редакција на Зборникот, Константин Миладинов за време на средбата со Чолаков во Загреб, му побарал "сто песни од источните страни на Бугарија," за да може да ја нарече својата збирка "Бугарски народни песни", при што се договориле Константин да му плати на Чолаков по една форинта за песна. [6]
Al. V. Racinski, in his biography for the brothers, published in Den newspaper, number 21 from 3 march 1862, talked about a Collection of Macedonian songs, really good ones, but despite that, the Collection was named Bulgarian folklore songs, regardless that only 76 out of total 660 songs were Bulgarian! During the last editing of the collection, Konstantin Miladinov during the meeting with Colakov in Zagreb, asked for 100 songs from the eastern parts of Bulgaria, in order to name the collection as Bulgarian folklore songs, they even agreed that Konstantin will pay 1 forint per song.
In my opinion, we can question verifiability of both promacedonia.org like sites and the Macedonian sites I referenced here, but I’d say the ethnicity of the brothers is one way or another questionable, so maybe it is the best to apply the following guideline taken from Wikipedia:MOSMAC#Macedonian.2FBulgarian_ethnicity_controversy (the guidelines suggested to be reviewed by user:Laveol): Miladinov brothers are considered ethnic Bulgarians in Bulgaria and ethnic Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia, by adding the counterclaiming references to each assertion. MatriX ( talk) 18:16, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Here are around 100 documents, where both brothers self identified as Bulgarians:
End of this stupid discussion! Jingby ( talk) 10:19, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
Even in your promacedonia propagandist site there is an explicit example of self-determination: [8]:
Ние македончината, недавна овде дойдени, неожидано получих Вашето писмо, полно от искрена и гореща любов кун отечеството ни...И я имам много макед[онски] песни, кои сакам да издадам малко подоцкна, защо сега не ми позволяват обстоятельствата. We, Macedonians, that came here recently.. I got your letter full of sincere love for the fatherland… I have a lot of Macedonians songs that I want to publish a little later, because currently there are no adequate circumstances...ако сите родолюбиви болгари, зближени мегю себе со знакомство от братска любов,
MatriX ( talk) 17:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
The term Bulgarian was used to refer to all Slavs of the Ottoman Empire (V. Friedman: Macedonian Language and Nationalism during the Nineteenth and Early Twentieth Centuries, 1975, page 84).
Are you shure? Really! Including Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks!!! Ha-Ha Ha! The existence of a separate Macedonian national consciousness prior to the 1940s is disputed. Pro-Bulgarian feelings among the local population at this period prevailed. (Loring M. Danforth, The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World, 1995, Princeton University Press, p.65 , ISBN 0691043566) (Stephen Palmer, Robert King, Yugoslav Communism and the Macedonian question,Hamden, CT Archon Books, 1971, p.p.199-200) (The Macedonian Question: Britain and the Southern Balkans 1939-1949, Dimitris Livanios, edition: Oxford University Press, US, 2008, ISBN 0199237689, p. 65.) (Who are the Macedonians? Hugh Poulton,Hurst & Co. Publishers, 1995, ISBN 1850652384, p.101.) Jingby ( talk) 15:13, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
"Even the famous leader of the Macedonian revolutionaries, Gotse Delchev, openly said that “We are Bulgarians” and addressed “the Slavs of Macedonia as ‘Bulgarians’ in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a designation was a point of contention”; See:The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World, Loring M. Danforth, Editor: Princeton University Press, 1997, ISBN 0691043566,p. 64. Jingby ( talk) 15:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
The national content of the Macedonian Slav revival was clearly and unequivocally Bulgarian. The identification "Bulgarian" was already current among the Macedonian Slavs; their dialects closely resembled those of their eastern Slav neighbours, who then, as now, were also known as Bulgarians; and the emerging modern Bulgarian literary language was readily comprehensible in Macedonia. Indeed, nineteenth century Macedonia served as one of the principal centres of the Bulgarian national revival: its Slav inhabitants, led by their new nationally-minded intelligentsia, participated fully in the Bulgarian literary and linguistic revivals, in the movement lor schooling in Bulgarian, and also in the first major political expression of the Bulgarian national movement, namely, the successful campaign tor a national Orthodox church, established in 1870 as the Bulgarian Exarchate. (Nationality in theBalkans, the case of Macedonians by F. A. K. Yasamee (Balkans: A Mirror of the New World Order, Istanbul: EREN, 1995; pp. 121-132) Jingby ( talk) 15:49, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
Laveol, my point is that there are opposite views that the term Bulgarian was not used in ethnic sense by the most of the people living in Macedonia region during that period. Therefore I oppose the ethnic classification of Miladinov brothers (at least we should find a way to present the opposite views appropriately). I didn't invented the theory that the term Bulgarian was sometimes used to refer to all Slavs, the citation is taken from the Victor Friedman book Macedonian Language and Nationalism during the Nineteenth and Early Twentieth Centuries written in 1975 (Friedman is a Professor in the Department of Slavic Languages and Literatures at the University of Chicago). He wrote: The term Bulgarian.. had earlier been used to refer to all the Slavs of the Ottoman Empire. There is an evidence that prominent people in XIX century used to refer to all Slavs as Bulgarians, see for example this link: [9]. One paragraph is devoted to Genadij, bishop of Veles in XIX sentury, hi claims that even Bohemia and Moravia (regions in Czech republic) are populated with Bulgarians:
Гърците, които ни наричат варвари, нека си спомнят, че взимат просветата си от Европа, а в Европа най-образованите философи са от Бохемия и Моравия и всички те са славяни, наши братя, чисти българи.(Greeks, which calls upon as a barbarians, should remember that in Europe the most well-educated philosophers are from Bohemia and Moravia and all of them are Slavs, our brothers, pure Bulgarians.)
Also, Krste Misirkov in his well-known book On Macedonian matters (written in 1903) wrote the following text (sorry if I didn't make a proper translation): [10]:
Името бугарин, како се видит, до полоината на XIX век немало за нашите предедовци по големо значеiн'е од имиiн'ата: рисiанин, раiатин и каурин ...Бугарцкото име во Македониiа, значит, iет резултат на лошото третираiн'е на македонците от страна на грцкото дуовенство… Грците унишчиiа Охридската архиепископиiа за тоа, шчо се упоминуаше името „бугарцка", како историiцки reliquium, но употребуваа името бугарин за да воплотат во него своiето презреiн'е кон с словенцко. И имено тоа воплотеiн'е на грцкото презреiн'е кон нас и iет причината да се велиме „бугари", а не историiцките традициiи… Значит, името бугарин во Македониiа, со коiе сега експлуатираат бугрите, никак не iет национално, и затоа никоi од македонците немат прао со него да експлуатират македонцките интереси во негоа полза. (The name Bulgarian, as it can be seen, until the half of XIX century didn't have significant meaning to our ancestors, no more than the terms: Christian, … Bulgarian name in Macedonia is a result of the bad treatment of Macedonians conducted by the Greek clergy. Greeks destroyed Ohrid Archbishopric because there was a mentioning of Bulgarian, as a historical reminiscent, but they used the term Bulgarian to express their contempt to everything related to Slavs. That is the reason why we call ourselves “Bulgarians”, not the historical traditions. The name Bulgarian in Macedonia, which is exploited by Bulgarians, has no national meaning at all…) MatriX ( talk) 18:15, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Some citations from your favorite - Kraste Misirkov:
From his article National Identity of the Macedonians - 1924 .
"We are Bulgarian more than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria. The population of Skopje is pure Bulgarian. The Serbian not only want to colonize Macedonia with Serbs from other part of Yugoslavia, but they wish to kill our Bulgarian consciousness. They took our right to call ourselves Bulgarians, even Macedonians, they intrude their schools and education, so much false and Jesuit, so much as the study of St. Sava and finally they come to the idea for the special Macedonian nationality, which they discover in South Macedonia. ... Call we ourselves Bulgarians, or Macedonians, we are very different from the Serbs, and we are with Bulgarian national consciousness..."
Krste Misirkov in "On Macedonian Matters"
We speak Bulgarian language and we believed with Bulgarians is our strong power.The future of Macedonia is spiritual union of the Bulgarians in Macedonia. The Macedonian Slavs are called Bulgarians. The biggest part of the population are called Bulgarians. All spoke that Macedonians are Bulgarians. Until 1978 all including Russian Government spoke the Macedonians are Bulgarians. But after the Berlin Congress the Serbs came with pretension to have Macedonia. They try to change the European opinion that in Macedonia there are Serbian too. If Ilinden uprising win we will be thankful to Bulgarians, but Serbians try to compete with Bulgarians and spend a lot of money and propaganda. If Macedonia is autonomic there will be no space for propaganda and the Serbs have to leave Bulgarian in peace. The Ilinden Uprising Committee is Bulgarian. The Committee is ready to give guarantee to Europe that Macedonia will not unify with Bulgaria, but they can't take the Bulgarian name and language from Macedonia! Serbia and Greece do not want to give us autonomous and independent Macedonia, because they see this as a fist step to unification. In Macedonia have only pure Bulgarian population, which can't be unified with the Turks.
Jingby ( talk) 18:39, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Don't you think we can go on like this forever!? It looks this is a never ending story... The time has come for all the world to know that the people living in Macedonia are Macedonians and not Serbs, or Bulgarians or Greeks; and that the Macedonian people has its own history, its own national dignity, and its own important contributions to the cultural history of the Slavs... Macedonia is a land of old Slavonic culture, and no one will succeed in rooting out this old Slavonic culture... Macedonia will survive all misfortunes because the giants of Macedonia are not yet dead. The figures of SS. Cyril and Methodius, and St. Clement and St. Naum of Ochrid are shining examples to the sons of Macedonia, whom a glorious future awaits on the day that Macedonia, united and free, takes her place as a member with equal rights of the family of the Balkan peoples. - Misirkov, 1913 MatriX ( talk) 18:51, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
This is yet another tedious nationalistic dispute, isn't it? So Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia#Discretionary sanctions applies. So L and M are now on WP:1RR parole for this article, which will drop down to 1/7RR if they abuse it William M. Connolley ( talk) 19:11, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
The reason I made a RfC is that I believe the current version of the article does not follow the basic WP principles: Neutral point of view and Verifiability. I'm confronted with several Bulgarian editors which insist on designating Miladinov brothers as exclusively Bulgarians. Their claim is supported by citing questionable and non-English sources, especially from the site [ promacedonia.org] which is a propagandist site which purpose is only to support Bulgarian point of view regarding the Macedonia region and Macedonian people. I already had a long discussion on the article's talk page and tried to reach a compromise solution that will have the following designation:
However, there are several Bulgarian editors which are not interested to find a mutually acceptable solution and keep changing the edits I make to the article. They keep the stance that Miladinov Brothers were exclusively Bulgarian and put every evidence of the Macedonian affiliation of Miladinov brothers to the Controversy section (see for example, the latest revert: [11] and also previous reverts: [12], [13], [14]
Therefore I'm seeking for comments from more neutral editors that will provide outside view on the topic in order to resolve this dispute. MatriX ( talk) 13:48, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Here are more then 100 original documents, where both brothers educated in Athens University and Moscow University self identified as Bulgarians, called the language in which they wrote Bulgarian, the Slavs in Macedonia Bulgarians, and were regarded as such by their contemporaries.: Братя Миладинови – преписка. Издирил, коментирал и редактирал Никола Трайков (Българска академия на науките, Институт за история. Издателство на БАН, София 1964) in English: Miladinovi Brothers - Correspondence. Collected, commented and redacted from Nicola Traykov ( Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, Historical Institute, Sofia 1964.) Jingby ( talk) 14:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
MatriX, please quit the pushing. Promacedonia is not a source, so don't attempt to mislead anybody. Clearly, the "Bulgarian-only" variant doesn't work. Let's go with something like:
"were poets and folklorists from Macedonia, authors of an important collection of folk songs, Bulgarian Folk Songs. In their writings, they referred to themselves as Bulgarians footnote about Macedonian POV about the meaning of this], though besides contributing to Bulgarian literature, in the Republic of Macedonia they are also thought to have laid the foundation of the local literary tradition."
How about this? No need for drama. Todor → Bozhinov 17:40, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
According to the guideline taken from Wikipedia:MOSMAC#Macedonian.2FBulgarian_ethnicity_controversy:
We have such a case and here is a violation of the guideline. If the person, who violated the rule does not explain, how is this possible, I will revert him. Jingby ( talk)
According to the guideline taken from Wikipedia:MOSMAC#Macedonian.2FBulgarian_ethnicity_controversy:
Make difference between Macedonians and ethnic Macedonians. Miladinovi brothers were Bulgarians and will figure here only as Bulgarians because in all sources they self-identified as such. POW is the so called "compromise". We could make compromise only if they have said we are ethnic Macedonians, descendants of Aleander the Great or something like that. I am removing the Macedonian propaganda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BG89 ( talk • contribs) 21:58, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
I agree it has problems, but some of the stuff is informative and comes from neutral secondary sources. Like the info about the book. Trim it if you like, but I don't see why the whole section should go. -- Laveol T 00:46, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
User:Future Perfect at Sunrise, please don't revert the article a fourth time in 24 hours, or you may be blocked per WP:3RR. Moreover, your defacement of the page, removing Facts and cited sources, may be qualified as Vandalism. Please read through the Help pages to learn more about Wikipedia and how to write articles here. -- 5ko ( talk) 09:45, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Laveol, Future Perfect accused you of being sarcastic. Be careful, he will probably use this 'information' and other forms of accusation he may throw at you in the future against you. Do you think you were sarcastic? Obviously not. Do not let him intimidate you. Politis ( talk) 10:46, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
You are welcome to edit it right now... Politis ( talk) 11:07, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Clean it up but as you say, you have no interest in the topic and no knowledge. Others do (not I). Do the same as me, drop it and move on. Politis ( talk) 11:16, 18 April 2009 (UTC) Politis ( talk) 11:14, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
From the section "Sanctions" above:
This is yet another tedious nationalistic dispute, isn't it? So Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia#Discretionary sanctions applies. So L and M are now on WP:1RR parole for this article, which will drop down to 1/7RR if they abuse it William M. Connolley (talk) 19:11, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
L has made two edits today, both reverts, neither marked as such, and would ordinarily get blocked for it, except FPAS hasn't set a shining example so I will let that one pass on a fairness. So 5ko and FPAS get added to the 1RR parole list, and everyone gets a reminder to discuss each and every revert before reverting. I'm not yet taking any sides in this dispute, but picking up an edit comment Facts *are* NPOV is definitely nonsense William M. Connolley ( talk) 14:07, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
I see a reference (3) to a statement that is not true... I mean it is just a statement without any proof and any facts provided... just thesis hanging out in the air... I will give you some examples:
The author claims that: The term bulgarian, which had earlier been used to refer to all the slavs of the ottoman empire.
That is totally not true as for example the serbs were called serbs, the croats were called croats and so on... How come they were not called bulgarians if the above statement was true?? It is obvious, ain't it?
The author also claims that: bulgarian was a synonym for peasant????
Let me see, the people in the towns were called bulgarians as well even though that they were not peasants... Also if that was true again, this would mean that the serbs, the croats, the greeks, the romanians and all the other nations in the Ottoman empire (including turks) should have been called BULGARIANS as well. You need basic knowledge of the Ottoman social structure at that time, in order to know that.. However the greeks, the serbs, the romanians, the croats and the turks were not called Bulgarians. It is clear that this cannot be a true statement as well.
So, how can this be a reference in Wiki... It is like to take some modern bulgarian nationalist comment and put it as a reference in order to prove that the MODERN ethnic macedonians (from the country Republic of Macedonia) are bulgarians...
Please answer why such a statement is put as an reference (meaning smth like proof)...? I never change without discussion, so I will expect you answer. Please let the answer come in a timely fashion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.90.0.97 ( talk) 09:23, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
Please, refrain from removing sourced content or making disruptive edits prior to consulting the talkpage. Most of the issues of the article have been discussed here at some point in time. If you have any other issues and are about to remove sourced material, try discussing it here, first. -- Laveol T 15:04, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved to Miladinov brothers Mike Cline ( talk) 11:26, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
Miladinov Brothers →
Miladinov brothers – Decapitalisation as common among sibling articles, see for example
Williams sisters. --
The Evil IP address (
talk)
19:24, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
Throughout the Middle Ages and until the early 20th century, there was no clear formulation or expression of a distinct Macedonian ethnicity. The Slavic speaking majority in the Region of Macedonia had been referred to (both, by themselves and outsiders) as Bulgarians, and that is how they were predominantly seen since 10th, [1] [2] [3] up until the early 20th century. [4] It is generally acknowledged that the ethnic Macedonian identity emerged in the late 19th century or even later. [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] However, the existence of a discernible Macedonian national consciousness prior to the 1940s is disputed. [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] Anti-Serban and pro-Bulgarian feelings among the local population at this period prevailed. [16] [17] According to some researchers, by the end of the war a tangible Macedonian national consciousness did not exist and bulgarophile sentiments still dominated in the area, but others consider that it hardly existed. [18] After 1944 Communist Bulgaria and Communist Yugoslavia began a policy of making Macedonia into the connecting link for the establishment of new Balkan Federative Republic and stimulating here a development of distinct Slav Macedonian consciousness. [19] With the proclamation of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia as part of the Yugoslav federation, the new authorities also started measures that would overcome the pro-Bulgarian feeling among parts of its population. [20] In 1969 also the first History of the Macedonian nation was published. The past was systematycally falsified to conceal the truth, that most of the well-known Macedonians had felt themselves to be Bulgarians and generations of students were tought the pseudo-history of the Macedonian nation. [21] Thank you. Jingiby ( talk) 16:56, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
References
Macedonian nationalism Is a new phenomenon. In the early twentieth century, there was no separate Slavic Macedonian identity
On the other hand, the Macedonians are a newly emergent people in search of a past to help legitimize their precarious present as they attempt to establish their singular identity in a Slavic world dominated historically by Serbs and Bulgarians. ... The twentieth-century development of a Macedonian ethnicity, and its recent evolution into independent statehood following the collapse of the Yugoslav state in 1991, has followed a rocky road. In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history and politics, the Macedonians, who have had no history, need one.
The key fact about Macedonian nationalism is that it is new: in the early twentieth century, Macedonian villagers defined their identity religiously—they were either "Bulgarian," "Serbian," or "Greek" depending on the affiliation of the village priest. ... According to the new Macedonian mythology, modern Macedonians are the direct descendants of Alexander the Great's subjects. They trace their cultural identity to the ninth-century Saints Cyril and Methodius, who converted the Slavs to Christianity and invented the first Slavic alphabet, and whose disciples maintained a centre of Christian learning in western Macedonia. A more modern national hero is Gotse Delchev, leader of the turn-of-the-century Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO), which was actually a largely pro-Bulgarian organization but is claimed as the founding Macedonian national movement.
Despite the recent development of Macedonian identity, as Loring Danforth notes, it is no more or less artificial than any other identity. It merely has a more recent ethnogenesis - one that can therefore more easily be traced through the recent historical record.
Unlike the Slovene and Croatian identities, which existed independently for a long period before the emergence of SFRY Macedonian identity and language were themselves a product federal Yugoslavia, and took shape only after 1944. Again unlike Slovenia and Croatia, the very existence of a separate Macedonian identity was questioned—albeit to a different degree—by both the governments and the public of all the neighboring nations (Greece being the most intransigent)
An article about the Miladinov brothers does not need to be written from the POV of the Miladinov brothers themselves. -- WavesSaid ( talk) 13:13, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
However, this people used in their official correspondence initially Greek and later Bulgarian language (based on eastern dialects). They called themselves Bulgarians and their language Bulgarian (including the local speaches). A lot of secondary, academic sources confirm this point of view. Nevetrtheless, in this article is mentioned, that in the Republic of Macedonia they are thought to have laid the foundation of the Macedonian literary traditions. Any questions? Jingiby ( talk) 15:41, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
Well, a degree in physics doesn't necessarily qualify one as a mathematical statistician. So no. The fact is that their language is Macedonian. Should you chose to challenge this, you will need to find a reliable source that states otherwise. -- WavesSaid ( talk) 03:41, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
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A bit of housekeeping, good to start with the fact that Miladinov Brothers were born in Struga, Republic of Macedonia instead of writing twice later.
Macedonian POV is that Miladinov Brothers managed to bypass the strong Austrian pro-Bulgarian propaganda in the mid XIX century to covertly forward some Macedonian national ideas. The Miladinov collection of folk songs was published in Croatia, under Austrian supervision (to show Bulgarian territorial pretensions or Austrian Balkan interests). That is why Sofia is included with the other Macedonian cities. To make this very visible they put Bulgarian in the title and have a preface that emphasizes Bulgarian Slavs in the acknowledgement to the publisher, with a covert explanation that the language, writing and wording is a bit different. If you start reading the book from the foreword, there is nothing strikingly Bulgarian after that. Furthermore, Miladinov brothers were smart to insert several pro Macedonian hints. In the Miladinov collection there are legends about tzar Alexander (Alexander the Great) and that the Macedonians buried their kings in Voden. Why these so-called "Bulgarians" kept legends about ancient Macedonians kings? Why the legends of ancient Macedonians are in this book of "Bulgarian" folk songs? This could be interesting question for Bulgarian historians to answer. Toci ( talk) 22:49, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
This article is slanted toward the Bulgarian point of view. This is an encyclopedia and we need to arrive to neutral formulations, supported by English language sources. I propose we use this: "Historical Dictionary of the Republic of Macedonia" [1] by Dimitar Bechev [2] Let's start with the first paragraph. I propose we change it to read like this:
"The Miladinov brothers (Bulgarian: Братя Миладинови, Bratya Miladinovi, Macedonian: Браќа Миладиновци, Brakja Miladinovci), Dimitar Miladinov (1810–1862) and Konstantin Miladinov (1830–1862), were famous educators, writers and ethnographers from the Struga, Macedonia. They are considered a pioneering figures of the national awakening in both Macedonia and Bulgaria." GStojanov ( talk) 19:10, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
Here it is: [18]. It wasn't published by them, I didn't say that. But it confirms that the name Macedonia was used and was actually very popular. GStojanov ( talk) 16:24, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
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Guys - the book says "Bulgarian Folk Songs" on its cover - what is there to dispute at all? I mean, Shakespeare's plays don't have "English" written on the cover - you are free to claim those I guess.
If the Macedonian consciousness was "not developed", then you should remove the double Bulgarian/Macedonian in the lead. On top of, they were quite clear that they regard themselves as Bulgarians and consider the Macedonians a subset of the Bulgarians - do you want me to paste other pages of Bulgarian Folk Songs or what? I have taken the double Bulgarian/Macedonian as a compromise to avoid future quarrelling but if you intend to play your horse around, I can also pursue a harder policy - they, Parlichev and Shapkarev have left enough evidence of what they thought about their language (Bulgarian), about themselves (Bulgarians) and about the "Macedonians" (a subset of the Bulgarians = Macedonian Bulgarians). The fact that you wrote that bullshit about the "dialect of Struga" on which they "wrote" their songs (they collected them, darling) clearly shows your intents and knowledge on the subject. VMORO 00:22, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Bomac, I will remind you that "wrote" was your mistake and in BG Wikipedia too. :) ( bg:Беседа:Константин Миладинов - Obviously, you meant to write "collect" too). Miladinov Brothers considered all of their songs Bulgarian. It includes all of the songs - from present Bulgaria, Republic of Macedonia and Northern Greece. Miladinov Brothers define their language and the language of the songs like Bulgarian. Why do you separate the songs according your own present concepts? You can create a separete section about your opiinion about Miladinov Brothers or the predominant oppinion in Republic of Macedonia, but please do not transfer present political reality to the our common history.-- AKeckarov 18:38, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Bojan, I think that exactly here you are in a mistake. The term Bulgarian wasn't a part from some political reality in the middle of ХІХ century - at least not in today's meaning. There was not a BG state, BG church, even geographical region Bulgaria (sometimes it was Moesia(Misia), but not Macedonia). The example with Miladinov Brothers clearly shows one: the term "Bulgarian" had ethic meaning. Please, look at their life and work without emotions: In their capital work they publishes a materials from verious Bulgarian regions - Macedonia, Thrace and Moesia (if we accept that Sofia is in Upper Moesia, which is discutable), they consider their people as Bulgarian (as a part of Sout Slavs) etc. If it is not an evidence that the term Bulgarian is an ethnical reality according Miladinov Brothers I really don't know what means "ethnical reality". Regards, -- AKeckarov 09:18, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Do NPOV mean that we can distort the facts? I am not hindering to express how Miladinov Brothers are counted in Republic of Macedonia (not Macedonia, but only in the Republic). This is a fact and you can create a separate section and explain this. But there are one certain fact: Miladinov Brothers was the activists of Bulgarian National Revival. This is not only my assertion, but their. Many years later somebody decides that they aren't Bulgarians (present doctrine in Republic of Macedonia). But why we have to accept one political doctrine in Wikipedia?
P.S. Who exactly states (historian) that in the Middle ages the term "Bulgarian" was used to describe all the South Slavs? Excuse me, but it is very strange for me? There are a few exceptions (and a few historians with political purposes) but I think that you gone too, too far. I do not understand Macedonistic logic: for the time when was BG church and state, you state that the term Bulgarian used due to them. For the time when was not BG political institutions and Bulgarians from Macedonia considered themselves like Bulgarians you state that exactly this shows Bulgarian are political term :). However, Miladinov Brothers considered them as Bulgarians and if you read their book (please do it), you'll understand weather they used the term Bulgarian in political or ethnical sense. Regards, -- AKeckarov 16:24, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't exactly recall what is a "Macedonistic logic". I'm sure I'm going to find the answer in Bulgaria :-) Cheers, Bomac 17:18, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Bojan, Do you state that Miladinov Bros had a Macedonian ethnic consciousness? That they was not Bulgarians? From where are these "many historians" which state that Miladiniv brothers was not Bulgarians? I see that it is difficult to somebody who accepts Macedonistic logic to imagine that the MK intelectuals considered them as Bulgarians in ХІХ, but read Perface of the Folk songs of Miladinov Brothers and you will understand the meaning of the term Bulgarian for them - One of the South Slavic people which are belonging Miladinov Brothers.-- AKeckarov 13:26, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Anton, I will repeat myself - CIRCUMSTANCES and the context of "Bulgarian". Nevertheless, they were talking on a Macedonian dialect (Struga dialect, which has not many similarities to Bulgarian), they were editing the songs on the phonetic script (not the etimological, which was in use in Bulgaria). And, I repeat, don't percept things on the yin-yang way. Cheers, Bomac 15:45, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
"Editing" does not mean only "writing", it means corrections, style, redaction etc. More, I can tell you that не е злато се што сјае, ofcourse, in the meaning of the usage of "Bulgarian" in that time. I know that you are a Bulgarian and think that everything where "Bulgarian" was written in those periods is actually something related to Bulgaria, but if you relax a little bit, you can understand what I mean.
P.S. If they were Bulgarians (in ethnic sense), they would have lectured their Collection, named as "Bulgarian folk songs" in the etimological script, which all people (who lived in today's Bulgaria territory in that period) used it then (and maybe nowadays). Bomac 19:23, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
You are speaking about stories? No matter, if you want retold stories, let we leave K. Miladinov to speak (about the transcription in the Collection):
"Правопис употребихме по возможноста најлесен и најсходен со произношението од словата; на пример вместо трите букви Ъ, Ь, Ѫ кои имает еднакво произношение, употребихме една Ѫ; напр. сѪнце, сѪрце (итн.). К‘де по грам. правила се пишит Ѫ, но се произносит а, се употреби последново. Еднакво се грижехме да предадиме верно народното произношение, по кое се водит тукашниот правопис; напр. млатЪ, потЪ, ретЪ (итн.) вм. младЪ, подЪ, редЪ (итн.). Еднакво човекот или човекѪт, вм, човЪкЪ-тЪ и др." итн.
All of this tells us that Konstantin was going in a way to establish the principle Write as you hear. There are many sentences in the book where he uses this: "Сиве почти песни се слушани од жени" or "От там одам у град Белограда" итн.
P.S. You know very well that many Bulgarian scientists have disputed the Collection, because of the dialects (Macedonian people's language) the songs are, dialects which are not suitable for the Bulgarian language. Cheers, Bomac 21:11, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
What that means: "maybe", "I guess"? You don't know the facts, but you make a suggestion and what is more important - you change the article. The Bulgarian public and scientific oppinion was not against the book and the dialects. Contemporaries like L. Karavelov, M. Drinov etc. welcomed this book. Who of them defined the dialects (NB! not one dialect) like strange Bulgarian? These dialects was regarded as Bulgarian (There was dialects not only from present Republic of Macedonia). If you asserts that somebody in BG scientific society doubted about their belonging do you think that it is good to point him?
About the script: This was a kirilic script which was in use among BG authors and publishers. Where is the problem?-- AKeckarov 14:38, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Strich3d, why are you pushing the fake picture from the soros archive, which has the top part truncated? Mr. Neutron 16:11, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
It is not fake picture, it is the original one. As you can see on your picture the word "B'lgraski" is not in the same line with other part of the text. It isn't even the same font. Your picture is a bulgarian falsification.-- strich3D 18:47, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
OK, I'm Bulgarian, too, and my impression is that the Miladinov brothers apparently were indeed Bulgarian, but let's consider Wikipedia's WP:NPOV policy for a second. It's clear that there is a controversy about whether they were Bulgarian or Macedonian. In this case, the NPOV policy reqires both POVs to be represented in proportion to their prevalence. So should the article really state that they were Bulgarian, as a fact, and then mention the Macedonian verison as an incorrect opinion? I think that this would only be permissible if the Macedonian POV could be regarded as a tiny minority view. But since no serious international scholars have been cited, all we have is the word of one little nation against the other. Certainly a 1937 article from Bulgarian nationalist newspaper "Zora" is not sufficient to change this, and using it, as well as the title of their collection etc., is original research (see WP:NOR) in any case. So I think the article should be more neutral. The main reason it isn't seems to be just that there are too few Macedonian editors here and they can't edit war efficiently enough.
P.S. I don't have so much time, so I won't come back to discuss this any further, but I hope that what I have said will be taken into account. -- 91.148.159.4 18:46, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Another grave innacuarcy; indeed the book has been republished in Macedonia, yet it has been done so in its original format, not editions, NOTHING. So when somebody finds a source to back this crazy claim, it will remain edited out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.87.56.76 ( talk) 06:06, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Reverting to Macedonian ethnicity without references is pure vandalism. Jingby ( talk) 16:27, 1 March 2009 (UTC
Please, stop reverting. Jingby ( talk) 08:03, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
There is a certain reason you write a book in 2008 and leave it as a whole to google books. You must've spent a whole day searching for it. It's so biased it can hardly be called a real work. It says that the Macedonian nation actually existed back when Samuel ruled the land and that Greek, Bulgarian and Serbian nationalists have been trying to deny this!!! What the? It's full of fringe views and so on. I've already read some of it through before (yeah, I have an interest in the field) and I can say it's total crap and contradicts most studies in this scientific area (even the pro-macedonistic ones). Besides the other 5 sources claim the opposite. -- Laveol T 11:27, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
I continued researching the issue. I first checked the 4 references supporting the Bulgarian nationhood of Miladinov brothers. The third and fourth reference did not discuss about the ethnicity and unfortunately I didn't find any info about the second reference. About the first reference (the letter of the Dimitar's daughter), I found the text written in Bulgarian posted at the famous promacedonia site: [3]. (Off the topic, if you want to laugh yourself, try the Google translate option that translates the text in English:)) [4]
I read the whole text, but it seems it represents the Dimitar's daughter view on the matter, not the view of the brothers itself. There is one quote about what Dimitar said for his brother. I tried to translate it to English, sorry if I didn't do it properly to the end (there are also such translations later in this post):
Нежни, безкрайно полюбовни са били отношенията между двамата братя. Моят брат Константин, заявявал баща ми на майка, е едно от най-хубавите цветя на българската градина.
There is a tender relationship between the two brothers, my father wanted to say to my mother: My brother Konstanting is one of the most beautiful flowers of the Bulgarian garden.
Then I checked what Macedonian sites are saying about the ethnicity of the Miladinov brothers.
О, колку ми е срам што на грчки ги изложувам своите македонски чувства и што одвај неодамна почнав да читам, да пишувам и да разбирам македонски. Но кој е причината? Грците-архиереи, кои ги изгореа насекаде македонските пергаментски книги: во манастирот Св. Наум (крај Охрид), во манастирот Кичевска Пречиста, во Трескавец (Златоврв), околу Битола, Преспа, Железна Река, Мариово, во Охридска Дебарца и во Дебар и во други места. Така грчките архиереи, осакатувајќи го македонското духовенство, ни го одзедоа драгоценото богатство на нашата народност и оттогаш се запазија само траги од македонските книги, чувани во засолнети места. [5]
I'm ashamed that I express my Macedonian feelings in Greek language and that I just started to read, write and understand Macedonian. But, what is the reason for that? It is the Greek archbishops, that burned the Macedonian books in the monastery of St. Naum (near Ohrid), in the monastery of Bogorodica Precista, Treskavec near Bitola, Prespa, Zelezna Reka, Mariovo, Ohridska Debarca, Debar and other places. Therefore, Greek archbishops took the most precious part of our nationality and since then we have just pieces of the Macedonian books, kept in hidden places.
На 8 јануари 1859 година Константин му пишуваше на бугарскиот поет и револуционер Раковски: "Ние Македончињата, недавно овде дојдени... неожидано получих Вашето писмо полно со искрена и горешча љубов кун отечеството ми". И додава покрај другото: "И ја имам много македонски песни, кои сакам да ги издадам малко подоцкна, зашчо сега не ми позвољават опстојателствата".
On 9 January 1859, Konstantin wrote to the Bulgarian poet and revolutionary Rakovski: We, Macedonians, that came here recently.. I got your letter full of sincere love for the fatherland… I have a lot of Macedonians songs that I want to publish a lithe later, because currently there are no adequate circumstances…
Ал. В. Рачински, …, во својата некролог - биографија за Миладиновци, објавена во весникот "Ден", број 21 од 3 март 1862 година, дека станува збор за "Зборник од македонски песни, навистина одлични", значи, наспроти сето тоа, Зборникот беше озаглавен "Блгарски народни песни", иако од 660-те песни објавени во него само 76 беа бугарски! Додека ја вршел последната редакција на Зборникот, Константин Миладинов за време на средбата со Чолаков во Загреб, му побарал "сто песни од источните страни на Бугарија," за да може да ја нарече својата збирка "Бугарски народни песни", при што се договориле Константин да му плати на Чолаков по една форинта за песна. [6]
Al. V. Racinski, in his biography for the brothers, published in Den newspaper, number 21 from 3 march 1862, talked about a Collection of Macedonian songs, really good ones, but despite that, the Collection was named Bulgarian folklore songs, regardless that only 76 out of total 660 songs were Bulgarian! During the last editing of the collection, Konstantin Miladinov during the meeting with Colakov in Zagreb, asked for 100 songs from the eastern parts of Bulgaria, in order to name the collection as Bulgarian folklore songs, they even agreed that Konstantin will pay 1 forint per song.
In my opinion, we can question verifiability of both promacedonia.org like sites and the Macedonian sites I referenced here, but I’d say the ethnicity of the brothers is one way or another questionable, so maybe it is the best to apply the following guideline taken from Wikipedia:MOSMAC#Macedonian.2FBulgarian_ethnicity_controversy (the guidelines suggested to be reviewed by user:Laveol): Miladinov brothers are considered ethnic Bulgarians in Bulgaria and ethnic Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia, by adding the counterclaiming references to each assertion. MatriX ( talk) 18:16, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Here are around 100 documents, where both brothers self identified as Bulgarians:
End of this stupid discussion! Jingby ( talk) 10:19, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
Even in your promacedonia propagandist site there is an explicit example of self-determination: [8]:
Ние македончината, недавна овде дойдени, неожидано получих Вашето писмо, полно от искрена и гореща любов кун отечеството ни...И я имам много макед[онски] песни, кои сакам да издадам малко подоцкна, защо сега не ми позволяват обстоятельствата. We, Macedonians, that came here recently.. I got your letter full of sincere love for the fatherland… I have a lot of Macedonians songs that I want to publish a little later, because currently there are no adequate circumstances...ако сите родолюбиви болгари, зближени мегю себе со знакомство от братска любов,
MatriX ( talk) 17:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
The term Bulgarian was used to refer to all Slavs of the Ottoman Empire (V. Friedman: Macedonian Language and Nationalism during the Nineteenth and Early Twentieth Centuries, 1975, page 84).
Are you shure? Really! Including Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks!!! Ha-Ha Ha! The existence of a separate Macedonian national consciousness prior to the 1940s is disputed. Pro-Bulgarian feelings among the local population at this period prevailed. (Loring M. Danforth, The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World, 1995, Princeton University Press, p.65 , ISBN 0691043566) (Stephen Palmer, Robert King, Yugoslav Communism and the Macedonian question,Hamden, CT Archon Books, 1971, p.p.199-200) (The Macedonian Question: Britain and the Southern Balkans 1939-1949, Dimitris Livanios, edition: Oxford University Press, US, 2008, ISBN 0199237689, p. 65.) (Who are the Macedonians? Hugh Poulton,Hurst & Co. Publishers, 1995, ISBN 1850652384, p.101.) Jingby ( talk) 15:13, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
"Even the famous leader of the Macedonian revolutionaries, Gotse Delchev, openly said that “We are Bulgarians” and addressed “the Slavs of Macedonia as ‘Bulgarians’ in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a designation was a point of contention”; See:The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World, Loring M. Danforth, Editor: Princeton University Press, 1997, ISBN 0691043566,p. 64. Jingby ( talk) 15:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
The national content of the Macedonian Slav revival was clearly and unequivocally Bulgarian. The identification "Bulgarian" was already current among the Macedonian Slavs; their dialects closely resembled those of their eastern Slav neighbours, who then, as now, were also known as Bulgarians; and the emerging modern Bulgarian literary language was readily comprehensible in Macedonia. Indeed, nineteenth century Macedonia served as one of the principal centres of the Bulgarian national revival: its Slav inhabitants, led by their new nationally-minded intelligentsia, participated fully in the Bulgarian literary and linguistic revivals, in the movement lor schooling in Bulgarian, and also in the first major political expression of the Bulgarian national movement, namely, the successful campaign tor a national Orthodox church, established in 1870 as the Bulgarian Exarchate. (Nationality in theBalkans, the case of Macedonians by F. A. K. Yasamee (Balkans: A Mirror of the New World Order, Istanbul: EREN, 1995; pp. 121-132) Jingby ( talk) 15:49, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
Laveol, my point is that there are opposite views that the term Bulgarian was not used in ethnic sense by the most of the people living in Macedonia region during that period. Therefore I oppose the ethnic classification of Miladinov brothers (at least we should find a way to present the opposite views appropriately). I didn't invented the theory that the term Bulgarian was sometimes used to refer to all Slavs, the citation is taken from the Victor Friedman book Macedonian Language and Nationalism during the Nineteenth and Early Twentieth Centuries written in 1975 (Friedman is a Professor in the Department of Slavic Languages and Literatures at the University of Chicago). He wrote: The term Bulgarian.. had earlier been used to refer to all the Slavs of the Ottoman Empire. There is an evidence that prominent people in XIX century used to refer to all Slavs as Bulgarians, see for example this link: [9]. One paragraph is devoted to Genadij, bishop of Veles in XIX sentury, hi claims that even Bohemia and Moravia (regions in Czech republic) are populated with Bulgarians:
Гърците, които ни наричат варвари, нека си спомнят, че взимат просветата си от Европа, а в Европа най-образованите философи са от Бохемия и Моравия и всички те са славяни, наши братя, чисти българи.(Greeks, which calls upon as a barbarians, should remember that in Europe the most well-educated philosophers are from Bohemia and Moravia and all of them are Slavs, our brothers, pure Bulgarians.)
Also, Krste Misirkov in his well-known book On Macedonian matters (written in 1903) wrote the following text (sorry if I didn't make a proper translation): [10]:
Името бугарин, како се видит, до полоината на XIX век немало за нашите предедовци по големо значеiн'е од имиiн'ата: рисiанин, раiатин и каурин ...Бугарцкото име во Македониiа, значит, iет резултат на лошото третираiн'е на македонците от страна на грцкото дуовенство… Грците унишчиiа Охридската архиепископиiа за тоа, шчо се упоминуаше името „бугарцка", како историiцки reliquium, но употребуваа името бугарин за да воплотат во него своiето презреiн'е кон с словенцко. И имено тоа воплотеiн'е на грцкото презреiн'е кон нас и iет причината да се велиме „бугари", а не историiцките традициiи… Значит, името бугарин во Македониiа, со коiе сега експлуатираат бугрите, никак не iет национално, и затоа никоi од македонците немат прао со него да експлуатират македонцките интереси во негоа полза. (The name Bulgarian, as it can be seen, until the half of XIX century didn't have significant meaning to our ancestors, no more than the terms: Christian, … Bulgarian name in Macedonia is a result of the bad treatment of Macedonians conducted by the Greek clergy. Greeks destroyed Ohrid Archbishopric because there was a mentioning of Bulgarian, as a historical reminiscent, but they used the term Bulgarian to express their contempt to everything related to Slavs. That is the reason why we call ourselves “Bulgarians”, not the historical traditions. The name Bulgarian in Macedonia, which is exploited by Bulgarians, has no national meaning at all…) MatriX ( talk) 18:15, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Some citations from your favorite - Kraste Misirkov:
From his article National Identity of the Macedonians - 1924 .
"We are Bulgarian more than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria. The population of Skopje is pure Bulgarian. The Serbian not only want to colonize Macedonia with Serbs from other part of Yugoslavia, but they wish to kill our Bulgarian consciousness. They took our right to call ourselves Bulgarians, even Macedonians, they intrude their schools and education, so much false and Jesuit, so much as the study of St. Sava and finally they come to the idea for the special Macedonian nationality, which they discover in South Macedonia. ... Call we ourselves Bulgarians, or Macedonians, we are very different from the Serbs, and we are with Bulgarian national consciousness..."
Krste Misirkov in "On Macedonian Matters"
We speak Bulgarian language and we believed with Bulgarians is our strong power.The future of Macedonia is spiritual union of the Bulgarians in Macedonia. The Macedonian Slavs are called Bulgarians. The biggest part of the population are called Bulgarians. All spoke that Macedonians are Bulgarians. Until 1978 all including Russian Government spoke the Macedonians are Bulgarians. But after the Berlin Congress the Serbs came with pretension to have Macedonia. They try to change the European opinion that in Macedonia there are Serbian too. If Ilinden uprising win we will be thankful to Bulgarians, but Serbians try to compete with Bulgarians and spend a lot of money and propaganda. If Macedonia is autonomic there will be no space for propaganda and the Serbs have to leave Bulgarian in peace. The Ilinden Uprising Committee is Bulgarian. The Committee is ready to give guarantee to Europe that Macedonia will not unify with Bulgaria, but they can't take the Bulgarian name and language from Macedonia! Serbia and Greece do not want to give us autonomous and independent Macedonia, because they see this as a fist step to unification. In Macedonia have only pure Bulgarian population, which can't be unified with the Turks.
Jingby ( talk) 18:39, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Don't you think we can go on like this forever!? It looks this is a never ending story... The time has come for all the world to know that the people living in Macedonia are Macedonians and not Serbs, or Bulgarians or Greeks; and that the Macedonian people has its own history, its own national dignity, and its own important contributions to the cultural history of the Slavs... Macedonia is a land of old Slavonic culture, and no one will succeed in rooting out this old Slavonic culture... Macedonia will survive all misfortunes because the giants of Macedonia are not yet dead. The figures of SS. Cyril and Methodius, and St. Clement and St. Naum of Ochrid are shining examples to the sons of Macedonia, whom a glorious future awaits on the day that Macedonia, united and free, takes her place as a member with equal rights of the family of the Balkan peoples. - Misirkov, 1913 MatriX ( talk) 18:51, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
This is yet another tedious nationalistic dispute, isn't it? So Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia#Discretionary sanctions applies. So L and M are now on WP:1RR parole for this article, which will drop down to 1/7RR if they abuse it William M. Connolley ( talk) 19:11, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
The reason I made a RfC is that I believe the current version of the article does not follow the basic WP principles: Neutral point of view and Verifiability. I'm confronted with several Bulgarian editors which insist on designating Miladinov brothers as exclusively Bulgarians. Their claim is supported by citing questionable and non-English sources, especially from the site [ promacedonia.org] which is a propagandist site which purpose is only to support Bulgarian point of view regarding the Macedonia region and Macedonian people. I already had a long discussion on the article's talk page and tried to reach a compromise solution that will have the following designation:
However, there are several Bulgarian editors which are not interested to find a mutually acceptable solution and keep changing the edits I make to the article. They keep the stance that Miladinov Brothers were exclusively Bulgarian and put every evidence of the Macedonian affiliation of Miladinov brothers to the Controversy section (see for example, the latest revert: [11] and also previous reverts: [12], [13], [14]
Therefore I'm seeking for comments from more neutral editors that will provide outside view on the topic in order to resolve this dispute. MatriX ( talk) 13:48, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Here are more then 100 original documents, where both brothers educated in Athens University and Moscow University self identified as Bulgarians, called the language in which they wrote Bulgarian, the Slavs in Macedonia Bulgarians, and were regarded as such by their contemporaries.: Братя Миладинови – преписка. Издирил, коментирал и редактирал Никола Трайков (Българска академия на науките, Институт за история. Издателство на БАН, София 1964) in English: Miladinovi Brothers - Correspondence. Collected, commented and redacted from Nicola Traykov ( Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, Historical Institute, Sofia 1964.) Jingby ( talk) 14:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
MatriX, please quit the pushing. Promacedonia is not a source, so don't attempt to mislead anybody. Clearly, the "Bulgarian-only" variant doesn't work. Let's go with something like:
"were poets and folklorists from Macedonia, authors of an important collection of folk songs, Bulgarian Folk Songs. In their writings, they referred to themselves as Bulgarians footnote about Macedonian POV about the meaning of this], though besides contributing to Bulgarian literature, in the Republic of Macedonia they are also thought to have laid the foundation of the local literary tradition."
How about this? No need for drama. Todor → Bozhinov 17:40, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
According to the guideline taken from Wikipedia:MOSMAC#Macedonian.2FBulgarian_ethnicity_controversy:
We have such a case and here is a violation of the guideline. If the person, who violated the rule does not explain, how is this possible, I will revert him. Jingby ( talk)
According to the guideline taken from Wikipedia:MOSMAC#Macedonian.2FBulgarian_ethnicity_controversy:
Make difference between Macedonians and ethnic Macedonians. Miladinovi brothers were Bulgarians and will figure here only as Bulgarians because in all sources they self-identified as such. POW is the so called "compromise". We could make compromise only if they have said we are ethnic Macedonians, descendants of Aleander the Great or something like that. I am removing the Macedonian propaganda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BG89 ( talk • contribs) 21:58, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
I agree it has problems, but some of the stuff is informative and comes from neutral secondary sources. Like the info about the book. Trim it if you like, but I don't see why the whole section should go. -- Laveol T 00:46, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
User:Future Perfect at Sunrise, please don't revert the article a fourth time in 24 hours, or you may be blocked per WP:3RR. Moreover, your defacement of the page, removing Facts and cited sources, may be qualified as Vandalism. Please read through the Help pages to learn more about Wikipedia and how to write articles here. -- 5ko ( talk) 09:45, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Laveol, Future Perfect accused you of being sarcastic. Be careful, he will probably use this 'information' and other forms of accusation he may throw at you in the future against you. Do you think you were sarcastic? Obviously not. Do not let him intimidate you. Politis ( talk) 10:46, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
You are welcome to edit it right now... Politis ( talk) 11:07, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Clean it up but as you say, you have no interest in the topic and no knowledge. Others do (not I). Do the same as me, drop it and move on. Politis ( talk) 11:16, 18 April 2009 (UTC) Politis ( talk) 11:14, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
From the section "Sanctions" above:
This is yet another tedious nationalistic dispute, isn't it? So Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia#Discretionary sanctions applies. So L and M are now on WP:1RR parole for this article, which will drop down to 1/7RR if they abuse it William M. Connolley (talk) 19:11, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
L has made two edits today, both reverts, neither marked as such, and would ordinarily get blocked for it, except FPAS hasn't set a shining example so I will let that one pass on a fairness. So 5ko and FPAS get added to the 1RR parole list, and everyone gets a reminder to discuss each and every revert before reverting. I'm not yet taking any sides in this dispute, but picking up an edit comment Facts *are* NPOV is definitely nonsense William M. Connolley ( talk) 14:07, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
I see a reference (3) to a statement that is not true... I mean it is just a statement without any proof and any facts provided... just thesis hanging out in the air... I will give you some examples:
The author claims that: The term bulgarian, which had earlier been used to refer to all the slavs of the ottoman empire.
That is totally not true as for example the serbs were called serbs, the croats were called croats and so on... How come they were not called bulgarians if the above statement was true?? It is obvious, ain't it?
The author also claims that: bulgarian was a synonym for peasant????
Let me see, the people in the towns were called bulgarians as well even though that they were not peasants... Also if that was true again, this would mean that the serbs, the croats, the greeks, the romanians and all the other nations in the Ottoman empire (including turks) should have been called BULGARIANS as well. You need basic knowledge of the Ottoman social structure at that time, in order to know that.. However the greeks, the serbs, the romanians, the croats and the turks were not called Bulgarians. It is clear that this cannot be a true statement as well.
So, how can this be a reference in Wiki... It is like to take some modern bulgarian nationalist comment and put it as a reference in order to prove that the MODERN ethnic macedonians (from the country Republic of Macedonia) are bulgarians...
Please answer why such a statement is put as an reference (meaning smth like proof)...? I never change without discussion, so I will expect you answer. Please let the answer come in a timely fashion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.90.0.97 ( talk) 09:23, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
Please, refrain from removing sourced content or making disruptive edits prior to consulting the talkpage. Most of the issues of the article have been discussed here at some point in time. If you have any other issues and are about to remove sourced material, try discussing it here, first. -- Laveol T 15:04, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved to Miladinov brothers Mike Cline ( talk) 11:26, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
Miladinov Brothers →
Miladinov brothers – Decapitalisation as common among sibling articles, see for example
Williams sisters. --
The Evil IP address (
talk)
19:24, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
Throughout the Middle Ages and until the early 20th century, there was no clear formulation or expression of a distinct Macedonian ethnicity. The Slavic speaking majority in the Region of Macedonia had been referred to (both, by themselves and outsiders) as Bulgarians, and that is how they were predominantly seen since 10th, [1] [2] [3] up until the early 20th century. [4] It is generally acknowledged that the ethnic Macedonian identity emerged in the late 19th century or even later. [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] However, the existence of a discernible Macedonian national consciousness prior to the 1940s is disputed. [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] Anti-Serban and pro-Bulgarian feelings among the local population at this period prevailed. [16] [17] According to some researchers, by the end of the war a tangible Macedonian national consciousness did not exist and bulgarophile sentiments still dominated in the area, but others consider that it hardly existed. [18] After 1944 Communist Bulgaria and Communist Yugoslavia began a policy of making Macedonia into the connecting link for the establishment of new Balkan Federative Republic and stimulating here a development of distinct Slav Macedonian consciousness. [19] With the proclamation of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia as part of the Yugoslav federation, the new authorities also started measures that would overcome the pro-Bulgarian feeling among parts of its population. [20] In 1969 also the first History of the Macedonian nation was published. The past was systematycally falsified to conceal the truth, that most of the well-known Macedonians had felt themselves to be Bulgarians and generations of students were tought the pseudo-history of the Macedonian nation. [21] Thank you. Jingiby ( talk) 16:56, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
References
Macedonian nationalism Is a new phenomenon. In the early twentieth century, there was no separate Slavic Macedonian identity
On the other hand, the Macedonians are a newly emergent people in search of a past to help legitimize their precarious present as they attempt to establish their singular identity in a Slavic world dominated historically by Serbs and Bulgarians. ... The twentieth-century development of a Macedonian ethnicity, and its recent evolution into independent statehood following the collapse of the Yugoslav state in 1991, has followed a rocky road. In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history and politics, the Macedonians, who have had no history, need one.
The key fact about Macedonian nationalism is that it is new: in the early twentieth century, Macedonian villagers defined their identity religiously—they were either "Bulgarian," "Serbian," or "Greek" depending on the affiliation of the village priest. ... According to the new Macedonian mythology, modern Macedonians are the direct descendants of Alexander the Great's subjects. They trace their cultural identity to the ninth-century Saints Cyril and Methodius, who converted the Slavs to Christianity and invented the first Slavic alphabet, and whose disciples maintained a centre of Christian learning in western Macedonia. A more modern national hero is Gotse Delchev, leader of the turn-of-the-century Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO), which was actually a largely pro-Bulgarian organization but is claimed as the founding Macedonian national movement.
Despite the recent development of Macedonian identity, as Loring Danforth notes, it is no more or less artificial than any other identity. It merely has a more recent ethnogenesis - one that can therefore more easily be traced through the recent historical record.
Unlike the Slovene and Croatian identities, which existed independently for a long period before the emergence of SFRY Macedonian identity and language were themselves a product federal Yugoslavia, and took shape only after 1944. Again unlike Slovenia and Croatia, the very existence of a separate Macedonian identity was questioned—albeit to a different degree—by both the governments and the public of all the neighboring nations (Greece being the most intransigent)
An article about the Miladinov brothers does not need to be written from the POV of the Miladinov brothers themselves. -- WavesSaid ( talk) 13:13, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
However, this people used in their official correspondence initially Greek and later Bulgarian language (based on eastern dialects). They called themselves Bulgarians and their language Bulgarian (including the local speaches). A lot of secondary, academic sources confirm this point of view. Nevetrtheless, in this article is mentioned, that in the Republic of Macedonia they are thought to have laid the foundation of the Macedonian literary traditions. Any questions? Jingiby ( talk) 15:41, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
Well, a degree in physics doesn't necessarily qualify one as a mathematical statistician. So no. The fact is that their language is Macedonian. Should you chose to challenge this, you will need to find a reliable source that states otherwise. -- WavesSaid ( talk) 03:41, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
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A bit of housekeeping, good to start with the fact that Miladinov Brothers were born in Struga, Republic of Macedonia instead of writing twice later.
Macedonian POV is that Miladinov Brothers managed to bypass the strong Austrian pro-Bulgarian propaganda in the mid XIX century to covertly forward some Macedonian national ideas. The Miladinov collection of folk songs was published in Croatia, under Austrian supervision (to show Bulgarian territorial pretensions or Austrian Balkan interests). That is why Sofia is included with the other Macedonian cities. To make this very visible they put Bulgarian in the title and have a preface that emphasizes Bulgarian Slavs in the acknowledgement to the publisher, with a covert explanation that the language, writing and wording is a bit different. If you start reading the book from the foreword, there is nothing strikingly Bulgarian after that. Furthermore, Miladinov brothers were smart to insert several pro Macedonian hints. In the Miladinov collection there are legends about tzar Alexander (Alexander the Great) and that the Macedonians buried their kings in Voden. Why these so-called "Bulgarians" kept legends about ancient Macedonians kings? Why the legends of ancient Macedonians are in this book of "Bulgarian" folk songs? This could be interesting question for Bulgarian historians to answer. Toci ( talk) 22:49, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
This article is slanted toward the Bulgarian point of view. This is an encyclopedia and we need to arrive to neutral formulations, supported by English language sources. I propose we use this: "Historical Dictionary of the Republic of Macedonia" [1] by Dimitar Bechev [2] Let's start with the first paragraph. I propose we change it to read like this:
"The Miladinov brothers (Bulgarian: Братя Миладинови, Bratya Miladinovi, Macedonian: Браќа Миладиновци, Brakja Miladinovci), Dimitar Miladinov (1810–1862) and Konstantin Miladinov (1830–1862), were famous educators, writers and ethnographers from the Struga, Macedonia. They are considered a pioneering figures of the national awakening in both Macedonia and Bulgaria." GStojanov ( talk) 19:10, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
Here it is: [18]. It wasn't published by them, I didn't say that. But it confirms that the name Macedonia was used and was actually very popular. GStojanov ( talk) 16:24, 24 May 2019 (UTC)