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Archive 1 |
Love the page, but can anyone provide a few references more recent than 1923? Harthacanute 01:58, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
There is no reason to use the German term Völkerwanderung in an English-language Wikipedia, where Human migration is an exact equivalent, and at the same time many reasons not to connect these historic phenomena specifically with a 19th century German historians' term and whatever nationalistic baggage may come along with that.
Which is better, Migration (human) or Migration (history). I prefer "human" myself. Wetman 15:36, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Dbachmann, see above. -- Joy [shallot] 00:05, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Völkerwanderung is what German historians called it. The Romans saw it as The Barbarian Invasions, later historians have called it The Germanic Invasions. It is apparent that neither Barbarian, nor Germanic, nor Invasion correctly describe this vastly complicated process which took place over hundreds of years and thousands of kilometers. I'm a strong supporter of the term Völkerwanderung, while at the same time I wish to expand it to include the non-Germanic "nations" which participated, primarily the Slavs, Huns and Turks. It is also important to realise that these migrations where influenced by push factors in Central Asia, where most of these tribes started out such as the Mongolan Hoards which "encouraged", so to speak the various tribes to move on.
I want to expand this article to include the things mentioned above, as soon as I can research it properly. This is a pivotal moment in European history and deserves more coverage. -- BadSeed 19:55, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Good widely-used modern historians' terms for this period of transition include Late Antiquity, Great Migrations or Migrations Period and Early Medieval Period (There's already an entry Early Medieval History of Northumbria, for example.) Each term is most suitable in its own somewhat different context. Three articles, referring to the existence of the other two, would give three perspectives, with some factual overlap, probably. Völkerwanderung still has its place and its own entry: the history of specifically Germanic migrations (with a subsection on 19th century historical views) -- Wetman 20:57, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Ok, I've been looking over the aricles on this subject, so far there appears to be this one, a sub topic in
Human Migration and the Northumbria article. It would be good to have a dedicated article to the sujbect. If I manage to write something decent and post it, it will hopefully compensate for the stub in
Great Migrations and
Human Migration and , while this article as you point out would be a good for either the Germanic aspect or the 19th Century historical aspect, or whatever.
--
BadSeed 21:31, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
This is temporarily posted here to be worked on,. I didn't want to just put it into the text, if this whole subject is sensitive. Wetman 20:33, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC):
I think you should keep the actual history and how 19th century Nationalists (mis)interpreted it to their own ends separate. IMO, the like between the Völkerwanderung and German expansion belongs under Historiography, not History. -- BadSeed 20:00, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
-- BadSeed 21:15, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I'm not sure I understand what's in process here, but in case we are about to get several articles covering different understandings of the same phenomenon, I would like to protest as early as possible. If the term Migrations Period is more common in English than Völkerwanderung, then I don't understand why not this article is moved.
However,
User:JHK, who seems to know what she does,
moved this article here.
--
Ruhrjung 02:29, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)
It's our choice. I'm for one article, at Migrations Period, with a section about 19th century interpretations. The timeline thing I created is horrible, by the way, but I got fed up with fiddling with it. Any help is appreciated. dab (ᛏ) 17:07, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Late Antiquity goes from the crisis of the third century to around 700AD. Early Middle Ages from around 700 to 1000 and High Middle Ages goes from 1000 to 1300. These are the general terms and bounds in use at the moment in acadamia. The other periodization articles could be historiographical in nature (similar to Dark Ages) and redirect the reader to a single article that contain the specific history. Stbalbach 06:16, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I would like rename the article to "Migration Period"
-- Stbalbach 04:13, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The article History of the Balkans has been listed to be improved on Wikipedia:This week's improvement drive. You can add your vote there if you would like to support the article.-- Fenice 17:18, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
I've added a request for a map for this article on Wikipedia:WikiProject_Maps/Requested_and_orphan_maps. (Though multiple maps might be necessary.) I think such an addition would go a long way toward making this article easy and quick to read, and to help readers (including myself) get clear on the relevant geography. -- Beland 04:19, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
I read that the Barbar invasions induced changes in the ecology of Europe. Basically, the mountains, that had been relatively free of human effect and preserved the pre-Human environment, were settled by peoples fleeing the fightings.
I guess it could have been caused by the coetaneous changes in agriculture or some other process.
Can somebody confirm? -- Error 21:57, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
I have my doubts that "Migration Period" is used for times as late as 900, or even 1000 as suggested by the timeline. Sure, migrations continued to occur, but the term doesn't apply to them (otherwise, we would have to argue that the Migration Period never ended). By 800 at the latest, with the Holy Roman Empire, the Migration period ends. Later Migrations are incursions on a solidified political entity, and not chaotic turmoils. The Viking Age is a continuation of the Migration period, but not usually considered part of the Migration period. AD 300-800 would be acceptable, 300-700 would be more common, and note that the German article says that the span of the term in the narrow sense covers 375-568 only. dab (ᛏ) 11:18, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Moved this recent DNA text to here:
Need a citation. DNA results are always complex in what they really mean, and are often mis-interpreted by the press to make a good/interesting story. So, we need to see the original science paper and have someone parse it for what it's really saying, now what the BBC or whomever says. -- Stbalbach 16:39, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
That map's good, but it should be in English.-- Cúchullain t/ c 00:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I would like to see more this article on why the migration occurred.
Some Germanic people moved east, this is why they are called "Ostrogoths", not to mention other branches. And it was central and eastern Europe (Byzantine empire included) that caught the wave first. Dpotop 09:51, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
The Goths originated on an island in the Baltic (or possibly Gotland in Sweden) and moved south to the black sea, not west but a move to a warmer climate none the less. Byzantine was southern Europe as fas I am concerned! Modern day Yugoslavia/Romania/Macedonia/Greece etc, Balkans. And Asia Minor / Middle east at different times. Central Europe? Any large numbers like those seen moving south and west? The only North migration i can think of during this time is the Anglo-Saxon-Jutes, but England may have well been warmer than Saxony at the time any way. People moving East were not moving to lower latitudes? This clip has a lot of temperature reconstructions showing dramatic cooling, check 6:42
Does anyone have numbers during the migration period? History channel just said up to 500,000 Lombard's entered Italy! I would have guessed the Lombards as being more minor than the Goths/Vandals/Franks/Alamani/Huns etc! Massive numbers, just amazing —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.73.44.28 ( talk) 11:51, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
What about these other migrating people? Nobody mentions the slavs and the alans, even though their migrations fit the chosen time frame. Dpotop 09:44, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
And why this time frame? Migrations continued until the 10th century, with the Hungarians (Magyars), Pechenegs, Cumans, and ultimately Tatars. And these migrations are well-documented.
I didn't mention here mongols, because their movements were ultimately part of some state's policy. Dpotop 09:44, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
There was no western Roman Empire in AD 500, please fix that in the graphic.-- Damifb 12:46, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
This is so insulting to me and others of Italian descendants, to negate the horrible atrocities the Germanic tribes did to the Italian countryside and its inhabitants!! This is purely done to gloss over these horrible violent raids and conquest and make the past more suitable for modern day peoples of Germanic ancestry. This is absolutely insane to change history to suit your own propaganda purposes. The facts are the facts and history Should Never be rewritten to soothe the ego's of modern day Germanics or any people for that matter. God forbid how will they gloss over slavery in a another hundred years or so.
Thankfully, this new viewpoint is not agreed upon by all historians around the world. This new movement where the Germanic tribes are portrayed in a more favorable way, has a strong following in Germanic countries such as Scandavia, Northern Europe and most predominately in the USA. This new movement wants to cover up the violence and atrocities and downright massacre that the Germanic tribes did to the Latin people of Western Rome and Italy during the 5th-7th century.
This is not the viewpoint that historians in Italy or most other nations around the world have. There are numerous historical facts, literature, evidence and letters throughout Italy that shows the Invasion was devastating and severe. Read, "the Fall of Rome" by Bryan Ward-Perkins.
In Italy the Barbarian Invasions are still looked at as a time of great destruction and violence. Italy had no standing army at the time, so the battle was fought primarily between Germanic warriors and Italian citizens, including woman and young children. The multiple invasions and raids led by the Germanic tribes led to huge amounts of Italian refugees flooded from the cities and countryside, there land was confiscated, the woman & daughters were raped, murdered, persercuted(catholic christians), tortured, plundered, and families were broken up and left to starve and thousands of Italians and Romans were enslaved and massacred.
This article should still be entitled, "Barbarian Invasions".....I wonder if Americans will be so kind as to call the massive immigration of Hispanics(and this is only the beginning of their exodus to America) as a peaceful migration period?? I highly doubt it, The arrogance, naivety, blindness and hypocrisy of modern day American people and historians is unacceptable, immoral and disgusting!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joeguida30 ( talk • contribs)
In Italy the Barbarian Invasions are still looked at as a time of great destruction and violence. Italy had no standing army at the time, so the battle was fought primarily between Germanic warriors and Italian citizens, including woman and young children. The multiple invasions and raids led by the Germanic tribes led to huge amounts of Italian refugees flooded from the cities and countryside, there land was confiscated, the woman & daughters were raped, murdered, persercuted(catholic christians), tortured, plundered, and families were broken up and left to starve and thousands of Italians and Romans were enslaved and massacred. Perhaps "Germanic Invasions" would be a better more descriptive name.(
Scipio3000
21:41, 9 August 2007 (UTC))
To Joeguida30: You state that thousands italians and romans were ensalved and massacred. Did you know that Caesar alone killed 2 millions germanic people? So, should we rename the roman empire to Mass-Murder Empire, and leave any neutrality? I prefer the truth without insults.
In the last decades of the Roman Empire, they used the germanic people as military servants in many battles, but often broke contracts to make them weak. After they maked even a deal with the extremly aggressive and cruel huns to massacre their true and most loyal allies, the burgunds, which served them well in many battles even against other germanic people, no germanic people would trust them again. Finally, Western-Rom was destroyed by an Foederati of East-Roman, and they tried to keep Rom intact. What you mean with murders and starvation, took place when Eastern-Rom attacked his former servant (see Gothic War) because they thought that they are too powerful.
So, only rassistic POV, no germanic murder, rape or whatever. Even the last attack of the Lombards was partly initiated by Narses, so all i see is anti-germanic rassism.
To Scipio3000: invasions is the italian view. People can be only at one place a time, so they leave a place and go (invade?) to another. If you look at europe, for example the Goths, who probably left scandinavia with unknown reason, fought wars against western-rom in contract with eastern-rom as
Foederati, so no real invasion. Just a lot of movements in a period (Migration Period), when a big empire broke down.
Wispanow
02:35, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
To Wispanow: Two factual errors in your post. First, there was no such thing as a "Germanic people" in the period concerned. There were a great many tribes and tribal confederations, at war with eachother more often than with Rome, which are (very) roughly subdivided in Przeworsk and Jastorf cultures in the archaeological record. Second, Julius Caesar didn't kill very many Germani, as no Germani lived in Gaul during his campaigns. Which by the way were some 500 years before the period the article is about.
Also, please refrain from projecting modern notions of "fairness" in international politics onto a time when such things simply did not apply. Your claim about "rassism" (sic) is simply ridiculous: at the time of the Rhine crossing in 405-406 the de facto ruler of the Western Empire was Stilicho, who was a Vandal.
To Joeguida30 and Scipio3000: The horrors you describe were much greater and had much longer-lasting in places like Britain and Gaul initially. Except from the extreme north which suffered under Radagasius and Attila, Italy was spared most of the bloodshed until the Gothic Wars of the mid-6th century which - amongst other things - led to the utter destruction of the old senatorial class. If you're Italian - and I am assuming you are - please go visit Ravenna, which was flourishing until around AD600 and the remains of this are still to be seen. A fact which Ward-Perkins conveniently ignores in his, in otherwise excellently written and delightfully polemic book.
There is nowhere near a consensus about the precise nature of the invasions or migrations or whatever label one chooses to attach to them in the current academia, and precisely so because the quite limited written sources from the period have been enormously expanded on in recent years with a mass of archaeological data.
What we do know is that specific events such as the Rhine crossings and the Vandal seizure of Roman Africa contributed greatly to the disintegration of the Roman state, and that a great deal of destruction was wrought in the initial events, even though this was mainly constrained to specific areas which mostly initially recover somewhat before going into terminal decline due to the loss of a superstate such as Rome was and the complex trade and exchange networks it made possible.
I think in order to maintain a neutral POV however, the term "Migrations Period" is quite adequate: for Romans it certainly meant "invasion" in the more traditional sense. But for the Germanic peoples on the move it meant a choice between being annihilated or enslaved by the Huns or face Rome's legions who weren't about to let them in without a fight, contrary to what people like Walter Goffart might have claimed before. For them it was therefore a choice of survival and not one of simple spite or avarice. Quadrifoglio ( talk) 23:16, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I have been told that those battles, like at Chalons, were just metaphoric for christianisation. Written by the manipulative tiranic roman church. ANy opinions? (And please dont start to nag about sources)( N33 08:29, 16 October 2007 (UTC))
If you make such a bold and unverified claim, which goes agains almost any source which survives from the period, I am certainly going to nag about sources. Quadrifoglio ( talk) 23:18, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I meant; can you even trust those sources. Its easy to hang on to them, due to a lack of frame of reference. -- N33 ( talk) 06:37, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Obviously the northern european peoples DID cause profound death and violence- it's been shown by many emperical anthropological studies that hunter-gatherer and early state peoples typically have high rates of violence. There's no way the germans and the like would be exempt from this human universal. But why does the article say so little of it other than anecdotes? Someone should fill this in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.103.68.182 ( talk) 08:13, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 05:34, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Why isn't this article titled 'Barbarian Invasions', many scholars in history have called it this and its widely known in English as the Barbarian invasions. These peoples didn't arrive peacefully they murdered and pillaged their way across Europe, to call it a 'migration' asif to make it seem like a peaceful event is equivalent to attempting to alter history. This was undoubtedly an invasion they were not welcomed by those who they invaded. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.45.145.109 ( talk) 08:22, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
To Arnoudf: I wouldn't say that peaceful accomodation happened very often in the period described in the article. The normal Roman practice was to break up an immigrating tribe into tiny portions and disperse them across the Empire so they could no longer pose a threat. Or, if the tribe had misbehaved from the viewpoint of Rome (which wasn't necessarily a fair one) people were sold off into slavery or worse. The change we see after 376AD is that, starting with the Goths, tribal confederations had reached a size with which they could not only cross into Roman territory, but remain together as a cohesive unit. The Goths who crossed in 376 had 30.000-40.000 fighting men who - as Adrianopolis showed - were a quite capable force too. The Vandal/Suevi/Alemanni Rhine crossing of 406 probably involved even more fighting men. While the Roman army on paper vastly outnumbered both of these groups, it was too widely dispersed to make an effective stand against either force, and the result was disastrous in both cases. Settlement of the groups in a more peaceful fashion mostly happened only much later: the Visigoths entered Roman territory in 376 and were only settled in 418, when Rome's military was much weaker than four decades before. The Burgundians also had been in Gaul for four decades when a more permanent arrangement was made in 443, at a time when the Western Empire was even weaker. The Roman state did not do all this out of a kindness of heart - mass expropriation of one's own citizens' property to a foreign entity would have been as politically hard to sell then as it is now. To state that this all was due to "an imaginative experiment that got a little out of hand" (Goffart, 1980) is thus a distortion of historical fact, and one which has been argued against quite vehemently by a number of authors recently. Quadrifoglio ( talk) 05:16, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
In comparision with the (very long but good) german article ( http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lkerwanderung), the english article is a little bit disappointing. Especially the Bibliography could be enlarged. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.181.4.132 ( talk) 14:29, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
How can I add to Timeline diagram Serbian Rashka state founded somewhere between 600 AD - 650 AD as stated in Administrativo Imperio
I checked for wikipedia's definition of invasion. "An invasion is a military offensive consisting of all, or large parts of the armed forces of one geopolitical entity aggressively entering territory controlled by another such entity, generally with the objective of either conquering, liberating or re-establishing control or authority over a territory, altering the established government or gaining concessions from said government, or a combination thereof. An invasion can be the cause of a war, be used as a part of a larger strategy to end a war, or it can constitute an entire war in itself. " Now, i don't really see in which respect the barbarian invasions were not invasions. Of course this doesn't mean "invasion" has a negative meaning, it's quite obvious it doesn't. We can also say that, since English is a germanic language, or because of some political reason or thanks to the strenght of German historiography, the term "migration" is more accepted or more widely used in English. But saying they were all not invasions really makes little sense from a logical point of view. 213.156.52.105 ( talk) 22:59, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
being a non-native speaker of english and wishing to find this article, I used my dictionary, which gave 'the period of the great migrations' as the english word for this period. Could somebody please apply that word as redirecting to this page, as this would help many people following my example find this page more easily. thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.107.24.213 ( talk) 20:32, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
THe migration age is defined 300 - 700 CE. Therefore, there is no need to include historiography about Turkic and tartar invasions, which fall well outside this period Hxseek ( talk) 06:10, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
So this article instead of discussing its topic digresses into a rambling essay on speculations regarding "ethnicity" and "barbarian identity". I am not sure, is this a recent deterioration of the article, or has it always been like this? Either way, it desperately needs to be put on its feet. -- dab (𒁳) 18:36, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
I felt that the above was needed in order to illustrate that the picture might not be so clear cut as generally thought. I was not under the impression that the article is solely for the purpose of outlining the chronology. Given that issues such as barbarian identity were particularly important during this age, I felt it appropriate to include it. However, if the concensus is that it would be better to create a separate article, then that sounds reasonable.
However, I cannot agree with the 'personal essay' suggestion. It certainly does not contain OR, nor is it slanted toward any particular view. Hxseek ( talk) 23:19, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
As I read 'Postmodernist discurs' I find that it is something between a historiography of modern research and a presentation of a discourse more distanced from the actual study of ancient texts and archaeological finds . This would opportunely all fall under the heading 'postmodernist discourse' ?! It is slanted towards the view of Halsall . I think the information is highly relevant, but more so if it was structured more 'ordinary' than the one long paragraph (paragraph 3.1 Barbarian identity) Sechinsic ( talk) 09:47, 16 August 2009 (UTC) , Dane .
I am confused about the passage called postmodern . Could someone please enlighten me ? (Yes, I have an agenda . I always get confused by postmodernity .) Sechinsic ( talk) 18:47, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 23:08, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Migration period →
Migration Period —
User:Ghmyrtle has challenged my edit from yesterday . Anyone interested is welcome to join in, preferably here on this talk page or at the temporary page that I have set up here . For reference, see User_talk:Ghmyrtle#Migration_Period Sechinsic ( talk) 09:54, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
The sentence contain 4 statements
The Migration Period
As part of this misleading spiel, 'migration period' itself is a misleading appelation . In modern research you find various naming schemes in use that directly reflect what can be attested by primary sources . Valentinian, Merowingian, pre-Pannonian, post-roman etc. The Migration Period does encompass a period of European history that hitherto may have been very dark, and thus easily comprised in the phrase "Migration Period", but today it does more to disguise the details of modern research . Is this POV ? It would be, if it appeared as text in the article . But we all have point of views, enabling us to make valid judgments .
I have done some rephrasing, to be seen at User:Sechinsic/migration01 . I am going to submit the 'Chronology' part, but hold back on the intro . Sechinsic ( talk) 10:35, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
The injections are by no means concise, and only by verbalizing the implicit meaning can they attain conciseness . But as concise statements they do not correlate with the generalized statement . The implied statement holds true for the research taking place in the 19th century, and the origin of the appelation 'Migration Period' .
A draft can be seen here . Sechinsic ( talk)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Love the page, but can anyone provide a few references more recent than 1923? Harthacanute 01:58, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
There is no reason to use the German term Völkerwanderung in an English-language Wikipedia, where Human migration is an exact equivalent, and at the same time many reasons not to connect these historic phenomena specifically with a 19th century German historians' term and whatever nationalistic baggage may come along with that.
Which is better, Migration (human) or Migration (history). I prefer "human" myself. Wetman 15:36, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Dbachmann, see above. -- Joy [shallot] 00:05, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Völkerwanderung is what German historians called it. The Romans saw it as The Barbarian Invasions, later historians have called it The Germanic Invasions. It is apparent that neither Barbarian, nor Germanic, nor Invasion correctly describe this vastly complicated process which took place over hundreds of years and thousands of kilometers. I'm a strong supporter of the term Völkerwanderung, while at the same time I wish to expand it to include the non-Germanic "nations" which participated, primarily the Slavs, Huns and Turks. It is also important to realise that these migrations where influenced by push factors in Central Asia, where most of these tribes started out such as the Mongolan Hoards which "encouraged", so to speak the various tribes to move on.
I want to expand this article to include the things mentioned above, as soon as I can research it properly. This is a pivotal moment in European history and deserves more coverage. -- BadSeed 19:55, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Good widely-used modern historians' terms for this period of transition include Late Antiquity, Great Migrations or Migrations Period and Early Medieval Period (There's already an entry Early Medieval History of Northumbria, for example.) Each term is most suitable in its own somewhat different context. Three articles, referring to the existence of the other two, would give three perspectives, with some factual overlap, probably. Völkerwanderung still has its place and its own entry: the history of specifically Germanic migrations (with a subsection on 19th century historical views) -- Wetman 20:57, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Ok, I've been looking over the aricles on this subject, so far there appears to be this one, a sub topic in
Human Migration and the Northumbria article. It would be good to have a dedicated article to the sujbect. If I manage to write something decent and post it, it will hopefully compensate for the stub in
Great Migrations and
Human Migration and , while this article as you point out would be a good for either the Germanic aspect or the 19th Century historical aspect, or whatever.
--
BadSeed 21:31, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
This is temporarily posted here to be worked on,. I didn't want to just put it into the text, if this whole subject is sensitive. Wetman 20:33, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC):
I think you should keep the actual history and how 19th century Nationalists (mis)interpreted it to their own ends separate. IMO, the like between the Völkerwanderung and German expansion belongs under Historiography, not History. -- BadSeed 20:00, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
-- BadSeed 21:15, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I'm not sure I understand what's in process here, but in case we are about to get several articles covering different understandings of the same phenomenon, I would like to protest as early as possible. If the term Migrations Period is more common in English than Völkerwanderung, then I don't understand why not this article is moved.
However,
User:JHK, who seems to know what she does,
moved this article here.
--
Ruhrjung 02:29, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)
It's our choice. I'm for one article, at Migrations Period, with a section about 19th century interpretations. The timeline thing I created is horrible, by the way, but I got fed up with fiddling with it. Any help is appreciated. dab (ᛏ) 17:07, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Late Antiquity goes from the crisis of the third century to around 700AD. Early Middle Ages from around 700 to 1000 and High Middle Ages goes from 1000 to 1300. These are the general terms and bounds in use at the moment in acadamia. The other periodization articles could be historiographical in nature (similar to Dark Ages) and redirect the reader to a single article that contain the specific history. Stbalbach 06:16, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I would like rename the article to "Migration Period"
-- Stbalbach 04:13, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The article History of the Balkans has been listed to be improved on Wikipedia:This week's improvement drive. You can add your vote there if you would like to support the article.-- Fenice 17:18, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
I've added a request for a map for this article on Wikipedia:WikiProject_Maps/Requested_and_orphan_maps. (Though multiple maps might be necessary.) I think such an addition would go a long way toward making this article easy and quick to read, and to help readers (including myself) get clear on the relevant geography. -- Beland 04:19, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
I read that the Barbar invasions induced changes in the ecology of Europe. Basically, the mountains, that had been relatively free of human effect and preserved the pre-Human environment, were settled by peoples fleeing the fightings.
I guess it could have been caused by the coetaneous changes in agriculture or some other process.
Can somebody confirm? -- Error 21:57, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
I have my doubts that "Migration Period" is used for times as late as 900, or even 1000 as suggested by the timeline. Sure, migrations continued to occur, but the term doesn't apply to them (otherwise, we would have to argue that the Migration Period never ended). By 800 at the latest, with the Holy Roman Empire, the Migration period ends. Later Migrations are incursions on a solidified political entity, and not chaotic turmoils. The Viking Age is a continuation of the Migration period, but not usually considered part of the Migration period. AD 300-800 would be acceptable, 300-700 would be more common, and note that the German article says that the span of the term in the narrow sense covers 375-568 only. dab (ᛏ) 11:18, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Moved this recent DNA text to here:
Need a citation. DNA results are always complex in what they really mean, and are often mis-interpreted by the press to make a good/interesting story. So, we need to see the original science paper and have someone parse it for what it's really saying, now what the BBC or whomever says. -- Stbalbach 16:39, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
That map's good, but it should be in English.-- Cúchullain t/ c 00:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I would like to see more this article on why the migration occurred.
Some Germanic people moved east, this is why they are called "Ostrogoths", not to mention other branches. And it was central and eastern Europe (Byzantine empire included) that caught the wave first. Dpotop 09:51, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
The Goths originated on an island in the Baltic (or possibly Gotland in Sweden) and moved south to the black sea, not west but a move to a warmer climate none the less. Byzantine was southern Europe as fas I am concerned! Modern day Yugoslavia/Romania/Macedonia/Greece etc, Balkans. And Asia Minor / Middle east at different times. Central Europe? Any large numbers like those seen moving south and west? The only North migration i can think of during this time is the Anglo-Saxon-Jutes, but England may have well been warmer than Saxony at the time any way. People moving East were not moving to lower latitudes? This clip has a lot of temperature reconstructions showing dramatic cooling, check 6:42
Does anyone have numbers during the migration period? History channel just said up to 500,000 Lombard's entered Italy! I would have guessed the Lombards as being more minor than the Goths/Vandals/Franks/Alamani/Huns etc! Massive numbers, just amazing —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.73.44.28 ( talk) 11:51, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
What about these other migrating people? Nobody mentions the slavs and the alans, even though their migrations fit the chosen time frame. Dpotop 09:44, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
And why this time frame? Migrations continued until the 10th century, with the Hungarians (Magyars), Pechenegs, Cumans, and ultimately Tatars. And these migrations are well-documented.
I didn't mention here mongols, because their movements were ultimately part of some state's policy. Dpotop 09:44, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
There was no western Roman Empire in AD 500, please fix that in the graphic.-- Damifb 12:46, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
This is so insulting to me and others of Italian descendants, to negate the horrible atrocities the Germanic tribes did to the Italian countryside and its inhabitants!! This is purely done to gloss over these horrible violent raids and conquest and make the past more suitable for modern day peoples of Germanic ancestry. This is absolutely insane to change history to suit your own propaganda purposes. The facts are the facts and history Should Never be rewritten to soothe the ego's of modern day Germanics or any people for that matter. God forbid how will they gloss over slavery in a another hundred years or so.
Thankfully, this new viewpoint is not agreed upon by all historians around the world. This new movement where the Germanic tribes are portrayed in a more favorable way, has a strong following in Germanic countries such as Scandavia, Northern Europe and most predominately in the USA. This new movement wants to cover up the violence and atrocities and downright massacre that the Germanic tribes did to the Latin people of Western Rome and Italy during the 5th-7th century.
This is not the viewpoint that historians in Italy or most other nations around the world have. There are numerous historical facts, literature, evidence and letters throughout Italy that shows the Invasion was devastating and severe. Read, "the Fall of Rome" by Bryan Ward-Perkins.
In Italy the Barbarian Invasions are still looked at as a time of great destruction and violence. Italy had no standing army at the time, so the battle was fought primarily between Germanic warriors and Italian citizens, including woman and young children. The multiple invasions and raids led by the Germanic tribes led to huge amounts of Italian refugees flooded from the cities and countryside, there land was confiscated, the woman & daughters were raped, murdered, persercuted(catholic christians), tortured, plundered, and families were broken up and left to starve and thousands of Italians and Romans were enslaved and massacred.
This article should still be entitled, "Barbarian Invasions".....I wonder if Americans will be so kind as to call the massive immigration of Hispanics(and this is only the beginning of their exodus to America) as a peaceful migration period?? I highly doubt it, The arrogance, naivety, blindness and hypocrisy of modern day American people and historians is unacceptable, immoral and disgusting!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joeguida30 ( talk • contribs)
In Italy the Barbarian Invasions are still looked at as a time of great destruction and violence. Italy had no standing army at the time, so the battle was fought primarily between Germanic warriors and Italian citizens, including woman and young children. The multiple invasions and raids led by the Germanic tribes led to huge amounts of Italian refugees flooded from the cities and countryside, there land was confiscated, the woman & daughters were raped, murdered, persercuted(catholic christians), tortured, plundered, and families were broken up and left to starve and thousands of Italians and Romans were enslaved and massacred. Perhaps "Germanic Invasions" would be a better more descriptive name.(
Scipio3000
21:41, 9 August 2007 (UTC))
To Joeguida30: You state that thousands italians and romans were ensalved and massacred. Did you know that Caesar alone killed 2 millions germanic people? So, should we rename the roman empire to Mass-Murder Empire, and leave any neutrality? I prefer the truth without insults.
In the last decades of the Roman Empire, they used the germanic people as military servants in many battles, but often broke contracts to make them weak. After they maked even a deal with the extremly aggressive and cruel huns to massacre their true and most loyal allies, the burgunds, which served them well in many battles even against other germanic people, no germanic people would trust them again. Finally, Western-Rom was destroyed by an Foederati of East-Roman, and they tried to keep Rom intact. What you mean with murders and starvation, took place when Eastern-Rom attacked his former servant (see Gothic War) because they thought that they are too powerful.
So, only rassistic POV, no germanic murder, rape or whatever. Even the last attack of the Lombards was partly initiated by Narses, so all i see is anti-germanic rassism.
To Scipio3000: invasions is the italian view. People can be only at one place a time, so they leave a place and go (invade?) to another. If you look at europe, for example the Goths, who probably left scandinavia with unknown reason, fought wars against western-rom in contract with eastern-rom as
Foederati, so no real invasion. Just a lot of movements in a period (Migration Period), when a big empire broke down.
Wispanow
02:35, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
To Wispanow: Two factual errors in your post. First, there was no such thing as a "Germanic people" in the period concerned. There were a great many tribes and tribal confederations, at war with eachother more often than with Rome, which are (very) roughly subdivided in Przeworsk and Jastorf cultures in the archaeological record. Second, Julius Caesar didn't kill very many Germani, as no Germani lived in Gaul during his campaigns. Which by the way were some 500 years before the period the article is about.
Also, please refrain from projecting modern notions of "fairness" in international politics onto a time when such things simply did not apply. Your claim about "rassism" (sic) is simply ridiculous: at the time of the Rhine crossing in 405-406 the de facto ruler of the Western Empire was Stilicho, who was a Vandal.
To Joeguida30 and Scipio3000: The horrors you describe were much greater and had much longer-lasting in places like Britain and Gaul initially. Except from the extreme north which suffered under Radagasius and Attila, Italy was spared most of the bloodshed until the Gothic Wars of the mid-6th century which - amongst other things - led to the utter destruction of the old senatorial class. If you're Italian - and I am assuming you are - please go visit Ravenna, which was flourishing until around AD600 and the remains of this are still to be seen. A fact which Ward-Perkins conveniently ignores in his, in otherwise excellently written and delightfully polemic book.
There is nowhere near a consensus about the precise nature of the invasions or migrations or whatever label one chooses to attach to them in the current academia, and precisely so because the quite limited written sources from the period have been enormously expanded on in recent years with a mass of archaeological data.
What we do know is that specific events such as the Rhine crossings and the Vandal seizure of Roman Africa contributed greatly to the disintegration of the Roman state, and that a great deal of destruction was wrought in the initial events, even though this was mainly constrained to specific areas which mostly initially recover somewhat before going into terminal decline due to the loss of a superstate such as Rome was and the complex trade and exchange networks it made possible.
I think in order to maintain a neutral POV however, the term "Migrations Period" is quite adequate: for Romans it certainly meant "invasion" in the more traditional sense. But for the Germanic peoples on the move it meant a choice between being annihilated or enslaved by the Huns or face Rome's legions who weren't about to let them in without a fight, contrary to what people like Walter Goffart might have claimed before. For them it was therefore a choice of survival and not one of simple spite or avarice. Quadrifoglio ( talk) 23:16, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I have been told that those battles, like at Chalons, were just metaphoric for christianisation. Written by the manipulative tiranic roman church. ANy opinions? (And please dont start to nag about sources)( N33 08:29, 16 October 2007 (UTC))
If you make such a bold and unverified claim, which goes agains almost any source which survives from the period, I am certainly going to nag about sources. Quadrifoglio ( talk) 23:18, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I meant; can you even trust those sources. Its easy to hang on to them, due to a lack of frame of reference. -- N33 ( talk) 06:37, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Obviously the northern european peoples DID cause profound death and violence- it's been shown by many emperical anthropological studies that hunter-gatherer and early state peoples typically have high rates of violence. There's no way the germans and the like would be exempt from this human universal. But why does the article say so little of it other than anecdotes? Someone should fill this in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.103.68.182 ( talk) 08:13, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 05:34, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Why isn't this article titled 'Barbarian Invasions', many scholars in history have called it this and its widely known in English as the Barbarian invasions. These peoples didn't arrive peacefully they murdered and pillaged their way across Europe, to call it a 'migration' asif to make it seem like a peaceful event is equivalent to attempting to alter history. This was undoubtedly an invasion they were not welcomed by those who they invaded. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.45.145.109 ( talk) 08:22, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
To Arnoudf: I wouldn't say that peaceful accomodation happened very often in the period described in the article. The normal Roman practice was to break up an immigrating tribe into tiny portions and disperse them across the Empire so they could no longer pose a threat. Or, if the tribe had misbehaved from the viewpoint of Rome (which wasn't necessarily a fair one) people were sold off into slavery or worse. The change we see after 376AD is that, starting with the Goths, tribal confederations had reached a size with which they could not only cross into Roman territory, but remain together as a cohesive unit. The Goths who crossed in 376 had 30.000-40.000 fighting men who - as Adrianopolis showed - were a quite capable force too. The Vandal/Suevi/Alemanni Rhine crossing of 406 probably involved even more fighting men. While the Roman army on paper vastly outnumbered both of these groups, it was too widely dispersed to make an effective stand against either force, and the result was disastrous in both cases. Settlement of the groups in a more peaceful fashion mostly happened only much later: the Visigoths entered Roman territory in 376 and were only settled in 418, when Rome's military was much weaker than four decades before. The Burgundians also had been in Gaul for four decades when a more permanent arrangement was made in 443, at a time when the Western Empire was even weaker. The Roman state did not do all this out of a kindness of heart - mass expropriation of one's own citizens' property to a foreign entity would have been as politically hard to sell then as it is now. To state that this all was due to "an imaginative experiment that got a little out of hand" (Goffart, 1980) is thus a distortion of historical fact, and one which has been argued against quite vehemently by a number of authors recently. Quadrifoglio ( talk) 05:16, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
In comparision with the (very long but good) german article ( http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lkerwanderung), the english article is a little bit disappointing. Especially the Bibliography could be enlarged. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.181.4.132 ( talk) 14:29, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
How can I add to Timeline diagram Serbian Rashka state founded somewhere between 600 AD - 650 AD as stated in Administrativo Imperio
I checked for wikipedia's definition of invasion. "An invasion is a military offensive consisting of all, or large parts of the armed forces of one geopolitical entity aggressively entering territory controlled by another such entity, generally with the objective of either conquering, liberating or re-establishing control or authority over a territory, altering the established government or gaining concessions from said government, or a combination thereof. An invasion can be the cause of a war, be used as a part of a larger strategy to end a war, or it can constitute an entire war in itself. " Now, i don't really see in which respect the barbarian invasions were not invasions. Of course this doesn't mean "invasion" has a negative meaning, it's quite obvious it doesn't. We can also say that, since English is a germanic language, or because of some political reason or thanks to the strenght of German historiography, the term "migration" is more accepted or more widely used in English. But saying they were all not invasions really makes little sense from a logical point of view. 213.156.52.105 ( talk) 22:59, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
being a non-native speaker of english and wishing to find this article, I used my dictionary, which gave 'the period of the great migrations' as the english word for this period. Could somebody please apply that word as redirecting to this page, as this would help many people following my example find this page more easily. thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.107.24.213 ( talk) 20:32, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
THe migration age is defined 300 - 700 CE. Therefore, there is no need to include historiography about Turkic and tartar invasions, which fall well outside this period Hxseek ( talk) 06:10, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
So this article instead of discussing its topic digresses into a rambling essay on speculations regarding "ethnicity" and "barbarian identity". I am not sure, is this a recent deterioration of the article, or has it always been like this? Either way, it desperately needs to be put on its feet. -- dab (𒁳) 18:36, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
I felt that the above was needed in order to illustrate that the picture might not be so clear cut as generally thought. I was not under the impression that the article is solely for the purpose of outlining the chronology. Given that issues such as barbarian identity were particularly important during this age, I felt it appropriate to include it. However, if the concensus is that it would be better to create a separate article, then that sounds reasonable.
However, I cannot agree with the 'personal essay' suggestion. It certainly does not contain OR, nor is it slanted toward any particular view. Hxseek ( talk) 23:19, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
As I read 'Postmodernist discurs' I find that it is something between a historiography of modern research and a presentation of a discourse more distanced from the actual study of ancient texts and archaeological finds . This would opportunely all fall under the heading 'postmodernist discourse' ?! It is slanted towards the view of Halsall . I think the information is highly relevant, but more so if it was structured more 'ordinary' than the one long paragraph (paragraph 3.1 Barbarian identity) Sechinsic ( talk) 09:47, 16 August 2009 (UTC) , Dane .
I am confused about the passage called postmodern . Could someone please enlighten me ? (Yes, I have an agenda . I always get confused by postmodernity .) Sechinsic ( talk) 18:47, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 23:08, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Migration period →
Migration Period —
User:Ghmyrtle has challenged my edit from yesterday . Anyone interested is welcome to join in, preferably here on this talk page or at the temporary page that I have set up here . For reference, see User_talk:Ghmyrtle#Migration_Period Sechinsic ( talk) 09:54, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
The sentence contain 4 statements
The Migration Period
As part of this misleading spiel, 'migration period' itself is a misleading appelation . In modern research you find various naming schemes in use that directly reflect what can be attested by primary sources . Valentinian, Merowingian, pre-Pannonian, post-roman etc. The Migration Period does encompass a period of European history that hitherto may have been very dark, and thus easily comprised in the phrase "Migration Period", but today it does more to disguise the details of modern research . Is this POV ? It would be, if it appeared as text in the article . But we all have point of views, enabling us to make valid judgments .
I have done some rephrasing, to be seen at User:Sechinsic/migration01 . I am going to submit the 'Chronology' part, but hold back on the intro . Sechinsic ( talk) 10:35, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
The injections are by no means concise, and only by verbalizing the implicit meaning can they attain conciseness . But as concise statements they do not correlate with the generalized statement . The implied statement holds true for the research taking place in the 19th century, and the origin of the appelation 'Migration Period' .
A draft can be seen here . Sechinsic ( talk)