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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 04:06, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
This article regularly cites clearly biased sources as fact, and it strongly implies that any killing of immigrants along the border by US Agents are unjustified. This article either needs to be completely cleaned up or deleted entirely as I'm not sure what the value of it is in its current state. â Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8800:A405:7600:A419:C283:87FB:75C5 ( talk) 17:06, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
I think this article has serious problems. There is no proof given that there are *any* immigrant killings on the US/Mexico border. I am aware of one case which occured some distance from the border, which I'll look up and include. Otherwise, it seems like a hypothetical discussion. Border crossing deaths due to heat exhaustion and other natural causes are a much bigger, and well documented, problem. I'd suggest renaming the article to "Immigrant deaths along the United States Border" so as to broaden the topic. (only one article links here: Illegal immigrants). Finally, I don't see how the Mountain Meadows Massacre is relevant. While it is a fascinating incident, it has virtually nothing to do with immigration or the border. Will McW 01:15, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
" Antonio The Taino Warrior Martin"
I am going to flag the section Vigilante killings as POV. Much of the material is taken from the leftist UK newspaper The Independent, whose correspondent, writing from Mexico City produces strongly POV "news reports" that trumpet some unlikely events. Direct quotes:
This is yellow journalism written for the self-satisfaction of the sneering anti-American left in the UK and has little connection to reality.
If there is no better sourcing for this section, I will delete it altogether in a few months. Kevinp2 20:40, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Awful, paranoid, leftist drivel that presents maybe one or two facts.
Tars the ranchers of Arizona while giving no impression of the assault under which people all along the border are being subjected to.
POV. Should be deleted. âPreceding unsigned comment added by 70.19.59.105 ( talk ⢠contribs) 13:27, 18 November 2005
This section is terrible. It obviously insinuates that the killings along the border are committed by Americans. If there are any killings being committed by Americans, some evidence and documentation should be provided. Hell, nothing here is documented. The only killings I can find evidence for are all on the Mexican side of the border, and are undoubtedly committed by Mexican criminal interests.
I should point out this article doesn't even mention the American citizens whose deaths were [b]caused[/b] by illegal immigrants and smugglers along the border. I can't find the news articles, a few Americans were killed in collisions such as discribed |here and |here. I believe that would be a valid inclusion, but may require this article change it's name to "Deaths along the U.S.-Mexican Border."
I'll also take issue with the snide Minuteman jab at the end, labelling some farmers as self-proclaimed vigilantes. There are many groups along the border that patrol and are armed, however they have never committed any violence, and their weaponry is to protect them from drug smugglers, coyotes, and the |Mexican Military. If there is any evidence to the contrary, provide it, or else this whole section should be rewritten or deleted.
Could you please include some statistics on how much people were killed by the "Minutemen"? It was a very good article. Thanks for defending Mexico. Congratulations!!! Viva Mexico!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No one has been killed by the Minutemen. Thanks for protecting America. USA 1!!!!!!!!!! âPreceding unsigned comment added by 74.47.125.243 ( talk) 20:48, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
This article is biased, manipulative and completely useless as an encyclopedia article. Its creators obviously wrote as a primitive political statement. Based on facts or not, you can't write an objective article with such agenda. It doesn't deserve a second chance. Unworthy.
I wikified a lot, removed irrelevent things (examples: farmers told not to shot immigrants (as farmers were never said to have shot immigrants) and a massacre that happened 150 years ago in utah that bares no relation to the mexico/american border deaths.) I also added references. Dark jedi requiem 18:48, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
After I cleaned up the article, is there anything that seems slanted, biased or anyway unobjective? If not, I see no reason for the clean up and pov signs to remain. Dark jedi requiem 00:29, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Let me add my voice to Dark Jedi's: this is a passably neutral article, and the signs should come down. There's no reason to give any particular credence to assertions that the article is biased, useless, or politically motivated. It would be a disgrace for it to be deleted. Besides, if out-of-state volunteer Minutemen are going to go running around in the Arizona border country, the article may save their lives.
It's a matter of simple fact that immigrants die crossing the border. This is nothing new. It wasn't new in my grandparents' day, either. The U.S.-Mexico border runs through some very rough desert and semi-desert country, and for half the year or more, the daytime temperatures can reach life-threatening highs. Anybody plonking around on foot in the Sonoran desert or the Baboquivaris is taking risks.
When immigrant deaths are the result of human action, most often the humans responsible are coyotes: people who make a business of smuggling immigrants across the border. Sometimes it's the result of outright violence -- coyotes are a nasty lot -- but more often it's manslaughter via gross negligence, as when they abandon illegals in impassable and waterless terrain, or leave them locked in the unventilated cargo compartment of a truck throughout the heat of the day.
Obviously, there's a considerable amount of controversy attached to this and related issues. The one thing you can't say is that immigrant deaths don't happen.
Readers should contibute any information that is applicable to the debate, as long as it has a valid source and can be cited. This is a hot issue at present and deserves attention. Do not delete entire article.
Not long ago, I tried fixing it up a bit, but I have little Wiki experience and didn't get very far.
It's definitely looking much better now than it did before.
Good job!!
as per Wikipedia:Citing sources "Say where you got it
It is improper to copy a citation from an intermediate source without making clear that you saw only that intermediate source. For example, you might find some information on a web page which says it comes from a certain book. Unless you look at the book yourself to check that the information is there, your reference is really the web page, which is what you must cite. The credibility of your article rests on the credibility of the web page, as well as the book, and your article must make that clear." In other words, the fact that you got content from a website sponsored by a group identified as a hate group (Nation of Atzlan) needs to be identified. - Psychohistorian 20:15, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Now, having said that, you, Ramsey, Will Breback and others who enjoy distorting and obscuring facts in order to prop up your politics will be happy to know that I am leaving Wikipedia. Will, you can go ahead and obscure the fact that the SPLC may not be a reliable source with regards to who is and who is not a 'hate group' - you don't care about objectivity, so my absence will make it easier for you.- Psychohistorian 12:38, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Does any one have a more recent number for the total death for 2007? Rdrgz25 ( talk) 04:54, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
A lot of the content in this article isn't relevant. Perhaps this article should be renamed. It also makes heavy reference to deaths on the border without sources that the people who died are immigrants and not drug runners, migrants, or something else. This article should be renamed "Deaths on the U.S - Mexican border"- 198.97.67.59 ( talk) 19:40, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I trust you recognize and will acknowledge that you are making an assumption when you say "Surely.."? I mean, the point I'm making here is that we don't know who were drug runners and who weren't. Its not about assuming the worse of anyone. It is about recognizing what we do and do not know and heeding the Wikipedia policy on verifiability. Please acknowledge as well that many of the sources I removed in this article gave no indication that the people being discussed had insufficient food or that their transportation choices were the result of being unable to afford better (or even whether Mexican drug mules can afford better).- 75.179.153.110 ( talk) 02:44, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was No Consensus has been reached. Furthermore, the article itself includes a combination of terms. Might I recommend discussing a bit further? And/or coming up with a term that is inclusive without being overly so? -- SatyrTN ( talk / contribs) 18:27, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Immigrant deaths along the U.S.-Mexico border â Migrant deaths along the United StatesâMexico borderâ"Migrant" is not the same as "immigrant"; some of the deaths mentioned in the article may have been from migrants.â MantisEars ( talk) 20:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.an itinerant farm laborer who harvests crops seasonally
, and at least where I come from, that is the dominant meaning. I see on various dictionaries this listed as a primary definition but on others, a generic definition is listing as primary: "moving from one region, place, or country to another". My oppose comes out of interpreting the title through the lens provided by the former definition, which results in the title being quite exclusive, while the generic meaning makes it more inclusive. Not sure where that leaves us.--
Fuhghettaboutit (
talk) 04:39, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
We achieved No Consensus in the recent survey to rename the article to Migrant deaths along the United StatesâMexico border. SatyrTN suggest that we should be coming up with a term that is inclusive without being overly so. Yet I note that those opposing seem to favor the much more inclusive Deaths along the United StatesâMexico border. Nobody argued in favor of not changing the title. I thus suggest that we change the title to use the more inclusive term migrant instead of immigrant, and then discuss whether we need to change the title to make it even more inclusive. Terjen ( talk) 03:24, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
From the discussions in this section and the ones preceding, there seems to be high degree of consensus about at least one thing: we agree on changing the title of the article to something else than Immigrant deaths along the U.S.-Mexico border. I recognize that there has been several suggestions. Migrant deaths along the U.S.-Mexico border seems to have the most support, and although it may not be the preferred term for everybody, maybe we can all agree that it is an improvement over the current title. It also resolves the issue of most of our cited sources uses migrant rather than immigrant to refer to those migrating between the U.S. and Mexico. As an evolutionary step in the right direction, I suggest that we for now change the title to Migrant deaths along the U.S.-Mexico border. Terjen ( talk) 20:55, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
No matter your favorite alternative name, do we have consensus that it would be an improvement to move Immigrant deaths along the U.S.-Mexico border â Migrant deaths along the United StatesâMexico border? As most of our cited sources refer to migrants rather than immigrants, it will allow us to keep the content rather than have it purged. Terjen ( talk) 00:52, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.
Done. Terjen ( talk) 21:52, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
fack wiki soll auf GER geben â Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.141.206.196 ( talk) 07:30, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
I propose that the article be moved to "Illegal migrant deaths along the Mexico - United States border" in order to be more specific in regards to the legal status of such people.
If there is no response(s) by 20 April, I will proceed. Zukabovich ( talk) 06:09, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
This article should be re titled "Deaths along the Mexican - United States border" so as to make clear that it includes more than just migrants. - 69.143.48.114 ( talk) 00:59, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
I propose that this article be merged into the article MexicoâUnited States barrier. A full 3 paragraphs of the "MexicoâUnited States barrier" article discusses migrant deaths, and includes information not found in this article. Thanks, Richard Apple ( talk) 22:19, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
The second sentence of the article reads:
This is very impressive, until you view the cited source, see that it covers only the years 1985-1998, and you realize that this statistic is 15 years out-of-date. Certainly, there must be some contemporary statistic, real or imagined, that is more up-to-date than this one! Plazak ( talk) 02:57, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
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The section on hypothermia is very short and lacks specifics. It also does not give indication of the deaths of people in trucks or other vehicles, such as in the recent deaths of over fifty! people in a refrigerator truck with non-working refrigeration ( https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/29/us/san-antonio-migrant-truck-deaths/index.html). How-ever, many of these kinds of deaths take place (or are reported from) locations a distance from the border (in the recent case, it was some 150 north of it). So maybe a separate article, linked to from this one, is needed. Kdammers ( talk) 18:14, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
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![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 2006 May 12. The result of the discussion was keep. |
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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available
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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 04:06, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
This article regularly cites clearly biased sources as fact, and it strongly implies that any killing of immigrants along the border by US Agents are unjustified. This article either needs to be completely cleaned up or deleted entirely as I'm not sure what the value of it is in its current state. â Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8800:A405:7600:A419:C283:87FB:75C5 ( talk) 17:06, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
I think this article has serious problems. There is no proof given that there are *any* immigrant killings on the US/Mexico border. I am aware of one case which occured some distance from the border, which I'll look up and include. Otherwise, it seems like a hypothetical discussion. Border crossing deaths due to heat exhaustion and other natural causes are a much bigger, and well documented, problem. I'd suggest renaming the article to "Immigrant deaths along the United States Border" so as to broaden the topic. (only one article links here: Illegal immigrants). Finally, I don't see how the Mountain Meadows Massacre is relevant. While it is a fascinating incident, it has virtually nothing to do with immigration or the border. Will McW 01:15, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
" Antonio The Taino Warrior Martin"
I am going to flag the section Vigilante killings as POV. Much of the material is taken from the leftist UK newspaper The Independent, whose correspondent, writing from Mexico City produces strongly POV "news reports" that trumpet some unlikely events. Direct quotes:
This is yellow journalism written for the self-satisfaction of the sneering anti-American left in the UK and has little connection to reality.
If there is no better sourcing for this section, I will delete it altogether in a few months. Kevinp2 20:40, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Awful, paranoid, leftist drivel that presents maybe one or two facts.
Tars the ranchers of Arizona while giving no impression of the assault under which people all along the border are being subjected to.
POV. Should be deleted. âPreceding unsigned comment added by 70.19.59.105 ( talk ⢠contribs) 13:27, 18 November 2005
This section is terrible. It obviously insinuates that the killings along the border are committed by Americans. If there are any killings being committed by Americans, some evidence and documentation should be provided. Hell, nothing here is documented. The only killings I can find evidence for are all on the Mexican side of the border, and are undoubtedly committed by Mexican criminal interests.
I should point out this article doesn't even mention the American citizens whose deaths were [b]caused[/b] by illegal immigrants and smugglers along the border. I can't find the news articles, a few Americans were killed in collisions such as discribed |here and |here. I believe that would be a valid inclusion, but may require this article change it's name to "Deaths along the U.S.-Mexican Border."
I'll also take issue with the snide Minuteman jab at the end, labelling some farmers as self-proclaimed vigilantes. There are many groups along the border that patrol and are armed, however they have never committed any violence, and their weaponry is to protect them from drug smugglers, coyotes, and the |Mexican Military. If there is any evidence to the contrary, provide it, or else this whole section should be rewritten or deleted.
Could you please include some statistics on how much people were killed by the "Minutemen"? It was a very good article. Thanks for defending Mexico. Congratulations!!! Viva Mexico!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No one has been killed by the Minutemen. Thanks for protecting America. USA 1!!!!!!!!!! âPreceding unsigned comment added by 74.47.125.243 ( talk) 20:48, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
This article is biased, manipulative and completely useless as an encyclopedia article. Its creators obviously wrote as a primitive political statement. Based on facts or not, you can't write an objective article with such agenda. It doesn't deserve a second chance. Unworthy.
I wikified a lot, removed irrelevent things (examples: farmers told not to shot immigrants (as farmers were never said to have shot immigrants) and a massacre that happened 150 years ago in utah that bares no relation to the mexico/american border deaths.) I also added references. Dark jedi requiem 18:48, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
After I cleaned up the article, is there anything that seems slanted, biased or anyway unobjective? If not, I see no reason for the clean up and pov signs to remain. Dark jedi requiem 00:29, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Let me add my voice to Dark Jedi's: this is a passably neutral article, and the signs should come down. There's no reason to give any particular credence to assertions that the article is biased, useless, or politically motivated. It would be a disgrace for it to be deleted. Besides, if out-of-state volunteer Minutemen are going to go running around in the Arizona border country, the article may save their lives.
It's a matter of simple fact that immigrants die crossing the border. This is nothing new. It wasn't new in my grandparents' day, either. The U.S.-Mexico border runs through some very rough desert and semi-desert country, and for half the year or more, the daytime temperatures can reach life-threatening highs. Anybody plonking around on foot in the Sonoran desert or the Baboquivaris is taking risks.
When immigrant deaths are the result of human action, most often the humans responsible are coyotes: people who make a business of smuggling immigrants across the border. Sometimes it's the result of outright violence -- coyotes are a nasty lot -- but more often it's manslaughter via gross negligence, as when they abandon illegals in impassable and waterless terrain, or leave them locked in the unventilated cargo compartment of a truck throughout the heat of the day.
Obviously, there's a considerable amount of controversy attached to this and related issues. The one thing you can't say is that immigrant deaths don't happen.
Readers should contibute any information that is applicable to the debate, as long as it has a valid source and can be cited. This is a hot issue at present and deserves attention. Do not delete entire article.
Not long ago, I tried fixing it up a bit, but I have little Wiki experience and didn't get very far.
It's definitely looking much better now than it did before.
Good job!!
as per Wikipedia:Citing sources "Say where you got it
It is improper to copy a citation from an intermediate source without making clear that you saw only that intermediate source. For example, you might find some information on a web page which says it comes from a certain book. Unless you look at the book yourself to check that the information is there, your reference is really the web page, which is what you must cite. The credibility of your article rests on the credibility of the web page, as well as the book, and your article must make that clear." In other words, the fact that you got content from a website sponsored by a group identified as a hate group (Nation of Atzlan) needs to be identified. - Psychohistorian 20:15, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Now, having said that, you, Ramsey, Will Breback and others who enjoy distorting and obscuring facts in order to prop up your politics will be happy to know that I am leaving Wikipedia. Will, you can go ahead and obscure the fact that the SPLC may not be a reliable source with regards to who is and who is not a 'hate group' - you don't care about objectivity, so my absence will make it easier for you.- Psychohistorian 12:38, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Does any one have a more recent number for the total death for 2007? Rdrgz25 ( talk) 04:54, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
A lot of the content in this article isn't relevant. Perhaps this article should be renamed. It also makes heavy reference to deaths on the border without sources that the people who died are immigrants and not drug runners, migrants, or something else. This article should be renamed "Deaths on the U.S - Mexican border"- 198.97.67.59 ( talk) 19:40, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I trust you recognize and will acknowledge that you are making an assumption when you say "Surely.."? I mean, the point I'm making here is that we don't know who were drug runners and who weren't. Its not about assuming the worse of anyone. It is about recognizing what we do and do not know and heeding the Wikipedia policy on verifiability. Please acknowledge as well that many of the sources I removed in this article gave no indication that the people being discussed had insufficient food or that their transportation choices were the result of being unable to afford better (or even whether Mexican drug mules can afford better).- 75.179.153.110 ( talk) 02:44, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was No Consensus has been reached. Furthermore, the article itself includes a combination of terms. Might I recommend discussing a bit further? And/or coming up with a term that is inclusive without being overly so? -- SatyrTN ( talk / contribs) 18:27, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Immigrant deaths along the U.S.-Mexico border â Migrant deaths along the United StatesâMexico borderâ"Migrant" is not the same as "immigrant"; some of the deaths mentioned in the article may have been from migrants.â MantisEars ( talk) 20:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.an itinerant farm laborer who harvests crops seasonally
, and at least where I come from, that is the dominant meaning. I see on various dictionaries this listed as a primary definition but on others, a generic definition is listing as primary: "moving from one region, place, or country to another". My oppose comes out of interpreting the title through the lens provided by the former definition, which results in the title being quite exclusive, while the generic meaning makes it more inclusive. Not sure where that leaves us.--
Fuhghettaboutit (
talk) 04:39, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
We achieved No Consensus in the recent survey to rename the article to Migrant deaths along the United StatesâMexico border. SatyrTN suggest that we should be coming up with a term that is inclusive without being overly so. Yet I note that those opposing seem to favor the much more inclusive Deaths along the United StatesâMexico border. Nobody argued in favor of not changing the title. I thus suggest that we change the title to use the more inclusive term migrant instead of immigrant, and then discuss whether we need to change the title to make it even more inclusive. Terjen ( talk) 03:24, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
From the discussions in this section and the ones preceding, there seems to be high degree of consensus about at least one thing: we agree on changing the title of the article to something else than Immigrant deaths along the U.S.-Mexico border. I recognize that there has been several suggestions. Migrant deaths along the U.S.-Mexico border seems to have the most support, and although it may not be the preferred term for everybody, maybe we can all agree that it is an improvement over the current title. It also resolves the issue of most of our cited sources uses migrant rather than immigrant to refer to those migrating between the U.S. and Mexico. As an evolutionary step in the right direction, I suggest that we for now change the title to Migrant deaths along the U.S.-Mexico border. Terjen ( talk) 20:55, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
No matter your favorite alternative name, do we have consensus that it would be an improvement to move Immigrant deaths along the U.S.-Mexico border â Migrant deaths along the United StatesâMexico border? As most of our cited sources refer to migrants rather than immigrants, it will allow us to keep the content rather than have it purged. Terjen ( talk) 00:52, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.
Done. Terjen ( talk) 21:52, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
fack wiki soll auf GER geben â Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.141.206.196 ( talk) 07:30, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
I propose that the article be moved to "Illegal migrant deaths along the Mexico - United States border" in order to be more specific in regards to the legal status of such people.
If there is no response(s) by 20 April, I will proceed. Zukabovich ( talk) 06:09, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
This article should be re titled "Deaths along the Mexican - United States border" so as to make clear that it includes more than just migrants. - 69.143.48.114 ( talk) 00:59, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
I propose that this article be merged into the article MexicoâUnited States barrier. A full 3 paragraphs of the "MexicoâUnited States barrier" article discusses migrant deaths, and includes information not found in this article. Thanks, Richard Apple ( talk) 22:19, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
The second sentence of the article reads:
This is very impressive, until you view the cited source, see that it covers only the years 1985-1998, and you realize that this statistic is 15 years out-of-date. Certainly, there must be some contemporary statistic, real or imagined, that is more up-to-date than this one! Plazak ( talk) 02:57, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
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The section on hypothermia is very short and lacks specifics. It also does not give indication of the deaths of people in trucks or other vehicles, such as in the recent deaths of over fifty! people in a refrigerator truck with non-working refrigeration ( https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/29/us/san-antonio-migrant-truck-deaths/index.html). How-ever, many of these kinds of deaths take place (or are reported from) locations a distance from the border (in the recent case, it was some 150 north of it). So maybe a separate article, linked to from this one, is needed. Kdammers ( talk) 18:14, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
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