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Ideal sources for Wikipedia's health content are defined in the guideline
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A good deal of unreferenced statements in the article. Removed how-to and dosage information per WP:MEDMOS. Inserted fact tags, where citation needed. Tricyclics do NOT accumulate in the body, this is bull, 25 pound weight gain is also not typical. Please see what books and publications are appropriate as references. Provide PMIDs of your journal citations. Conference papers are less useful. Same for web presence of a clinic. We need peer-reviewed sources. The whole article needs rework for proper references. I fixed your inline references, you forgot the reflist. I deleted the spurious repetition of the refs at the end. You had a references syntax error. Please take items not related to the article back to your talk page. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 01:49, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
Note that Julcal is a known spammer and originally wrote this article with an indirect link via her forum pointing to a bogus selling scheme website ( http://www.feed-your-cells.com/) promoting a cure for this condition. The company is called Enzacta and is an MLM scheme. Keep an eye on this article for outbound links. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Studio34 ( talk • contribs) 02:05, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
The accusation is not ludicrous. This is not the only incidence, and it won't be the last. He shows up wherever I make a presence on the internet. -- Julcal ( talk) 14:09, 14 April 2009 (UTC)julcal
Hi. I saw this page listed for a third opinion, so here's my thoughts. A great deal of this article is somewhat dubious, and it needs a great deal of work. I've marked the article with a list of issues; please resolve them before removing those tags. Studio34, can you show me some proof of what you're talking about? I don't see that site listed in any of the sources. Either way, the lead needs to be reworked to actually describe what migraine-associated vertigo is. I mean, the name sort of implies the meaning, but we could use more clarification there. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 02:35, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Alright, I'm starting to see how this is working. Julcal, you wrote "My website is great and it's a great product. MLMs are not schemes, pyramids are." This is not a place for you to promote your website. Do you run http://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/? — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 02:36, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Hello Scott (Studio34). Now he accuses me of plagarism. My article doesn't have a chance with him on board, so I have removed it. I was trying to do a good thing giving migraine-associated vertigo a presence on the internet. There are so many MAV sufferers who are confused about what is ailing them. I realized that MAV was my illness when I read posts on Studio34's forum which I happened across through an outgoing link on Wikipedia. When I did the same, I was accused of being a spammer. --
Julcal (
talk)
16:10, 14 April 2009 (UTC)julcal
AND this issue has been resolved, fairly and squarely. Although it needs work, I am proud of this article. It fills a much needed void for all those MAVers who don't know what the heck is going on with them. I hope someday it will be a great article. Thanks to all who are working on it constructively.-- Julcal ( talk) 22:52, 14 April 2009 (UTC)julcal
A situation involving editing here is being discussed at the Administrators' Notice Board. DGG ( talk) 16:09, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
As an aspiring neurologist and someone who is intimately interested in neurological, vertigo, dizziness and associated disorders I can attest that this is a real medical condition which several specialized treatment centers. However the article, as currently written, does not seem to be as encyclopedic as it could be. I will try to get involved in certain sections and add appropriate references and make the tone neutral. Basket of Puppies 17:39, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
I have rewritten the Intro and sourced it to Dr Hain. I believe that it's now neutral and concise. Thoughts? Basket of Puppies 18:26, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
The section "Symptoms and Syndromes Associated with MAV" and the section "Vertigo Syndromes Associated with Migraine" seem to me either duplicative or overlapping, but perhaps someone else can clear it up better than I. DGG ( talk) 19:53, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
We need an exact reference for the Conference, in a published source. We spell out journal names. I have started combining references, using the named reference format, but this should be done for the rest of the article also. DGG ( talk) 19:53, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Propose to replace links to the vertigo website by Hain and other self-published and clinic links by peer reviewed articles with PMID numbers, preferably secondary references and not primary research or case reports or anecdotes. Given that the mentioned specialists are described as well known capacities of their field with lots of peer reviewed publications, this should be no problem with pubmed searches for the topics. The conference proceedings indeed need to be replaced by publicized peer reviewed articles with PMIDs too. See WP:MEDMOS for the acceptable references and the exclusion of self-published materials, except under very narrow and hard to verify circumstances. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 09:52, 15 April 2009 (UTC) 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 09:52, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15837905?ordinalpos=42&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12521357?ordinalpos=62&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8586026?ordinalpos=97&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
I would not find the self published paper. It could be he never sent it to a journal. Regardless, I believe it should be included and used as a reliable source. Basket of Puppies 03:48, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, 3 papers are meager, when a previous discussion mentioned 77 published peer reviewed papers. Given the situation I would exclude the self-published paper for WP:MEDMOS guidelines about sources and self-published references, see there and look also at the broad associated discussion of this topic in WP. As his clinic site is material of his own clinic business I would additionally exclude it for COI. Go find more peer reviewed sources with pubmed, which support the article little by little. Exclude the Hain clinic site. Thats how reliable sourcing works. See how to get a cross section of contemporary medical mainstream opinion from pubmed and use that to support or contradict sentence by sentence of the article. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 04:04, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Also use pubmed to find citations of his work and look at those. Find citations of his conference paper and PMID of that conference paper too, otherwise exclude it for reasons above. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 04:09, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications.
Persons with Dizzines" Neurol Clin 23 (2005) 831–853 as a reference. He says the paper on his website is only self-published at this point so this other one might be useful in some ways. Basket of Puppies 16:32, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Is it in pubmed? get PMID please. Is it on the web as a link to be included in fulltext? That would be nice. This is much better than the previous vandalism discussion, warnings and page blanking discussions. Please also see below for a review article useful as a reference, I put the link. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 17:50, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
This is due to preference to be given to published, peer reviewed papers, and also to SPS .com publications being frowned upon due to commercial interest tainting neutrality in principle and by COI. See discussion on dispute resolution page and answer by User:Chaldor. Is the review article linked below in fulltext useful as a reference and to locate more references? 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 18:21, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
In a short formula SPS is not a license for experts to push their own commercial interest site into WP as references, if other solutions are open, if other sources can be used for the same purpose. SPS may apply for a Nobel price laureate having published a singular book on the topic. Not for a doctors office patient information site. Maybe discuss the topic with Dr. Hain again and get his opinion? Discuss the reference guidelines and COI topics in particular. What about below link to a review article, which could be used for the purpose? Your opinion? 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 18:33, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Calcium channel blockers Drug (brand name) Dose Uses Common adverse reactions Cinnarizine (Stugeron) (not FDA approved) 25 mg three times a day Migraine, vertigo Sleepiness, weight gain Flunarizine (Sibelium) (not FDA approved) 10 mg at bedtime Migraine, vertigo, motion sickness Sleepiness, weight gain Nimodipine (Nimotop) 30 mg twice a day Migraine, Meniere’s Headache, flushing Verapamil 120 mg sustained release at bedtime Migraine Constipation
Basket of Puppies 18:38, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
According to WP:MEDMOS dosage information and how-to of treatment is to be excluded from the article. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 18:47, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Remains the question of how far this is a How-To or treatment algorithm description and if and when this belongs here according to guidelines. This will probably develop in the details, as the article develops. Also possible to discuss at WT:MED. The entries for the particular medications are already present and may profit from adding MAV related information in their indications section, so you can take a look if you see room for improvement there too. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 19:15, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
See e.g. flunarizine and cinnarizine for reference, they also include references for their use in migraine and MAV. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 19:22, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Re: Flunarizine (Sibelium) for migraine, MAV. The 10mg at bed time are the standard dosage recommendation for this indication, according to package insert. So there is no reason for including dosage information, according to MEDMOS guide lines. - There are no special circumstances making the standard dosage in a labeled indication per package insert notable. Same for side effects. (That it is not FDA approved does not make it so special, it is approved and labeled for this indication in Europe.) 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 10:45, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Same for Cinnarizine. It is std dosage range, described side effects according to package insert/monograph. Nothing out of the ordinary. No reason for including dosage for special circumstances or discussion, per WP:MEDMOS. This will all probably develop during the further development of the article. But maybe a reason to improve the articles of flunarizine and cinnarizine by working on the side effects list. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 12:13, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
HelloAnyong - Will you follow procedure and discuss edits on the talk page, by answering to the controversial points in question. Will you not call valid concerns vandalism again, and will you immediately remove such notice from my talk page. That "several editors" think a commercial website is a feasible reference is not enough. Will you please read the guidelines and the discussion for the point in question. Sources have to be neutral and peer reviewed, this ref is the website of a private business. See talk page above, the concerns about the sourcing of the article exist from the beginning, and we have to proceed to improve the sourcing as described above. Please read again. I have explained the sourcing guidelines enough. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 00:52, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Basket of Puppies: Please will you not describe removal of a reference as "page blanking" and remove your related warning from my talk page. There is nothing ambiguous about the situation. A link to a private medical office is not a feasible reference, please convince yourself at WP:MEDMOS that self published materials are not valid references. Furthermore a link to a private business constitutes advertisement for the commercial purpose of that site and constitutes spam for that reason. By this nature such links also constitute a conflict of interest. Sources have to be neutral and peer reviewed. They preferably represent broad medical consensus as reflected in secondary sources. There are guidelines. Please read them. The article now almost exclusively sources to Dr. Hains commercial activities, and this has to be removed. This has now been on this talk page for sufficient time to be answered in a meaningful way. That one or more editors think the source is such an authority that we can skip or override the sourcing guidelines seems to be a misunderstanding of WP policies and guidelines. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 00:29, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Annyong, you seem to misunderstand that multiple users can simply think something is RS, even it is a single commercial website. There are guidelines, described above, and I ask them to be respected. Please discuss, and don't call valid removal of commercial websites as vandalism. Don't do that again. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 00:29, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
The applicable guidelines are to be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources_(medicine-related_articles)
70.137.153.83 ( talk) 04:36, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
“ | Reliable primary sources can add greatly to a medical article, but must be used with care because of the potential for misuse. For that reason, edits that rely on primary sources should only describe the conclusions of the source, and should describe these findings clearly so the edit can be checked by editors with no specialist knowledge. In particular, this description should follow closely to the interpretation of the data given by the authors, or by other reliable secondary sources. | ” |
Ergots and isometheptene are not triptans according to high school chemistry. See triptans. isometheptene and ergotamine and look at the structure. They just don't belong there by definition. Please find a RS that chicken soup is not nerve gas. That kind of bogus. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 06:04, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Turns out that the previous corrections I had applied corrected mere misinterpretations of Dr. Hain's site by editor Julcal. He doesn't say ergot and isometheptene are triptans. Anyway, it is correct now. His site is patient advice. I would prefer to source to his published writing in peer reviewed journals if possible. I certainly have no preoccupation against him, just want the article well sourced. It needs work, do we agree about that? And editors here have to stop the habit of calling every inconvenient argument or constructive criticism vandalism or "page blanking". Teaching must be hell in this country. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 08:33, 20 April 2009 (UTC) 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 09:16, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
A Brasilian friend has dug out the following review article, which contains a whole lot of useful references. So you can use these to not solely rely on Dr. Hain's site as reference.
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0034-72992008000400020&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en
70.137.153.83 ( talk) 12:22, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
See here for dispute resolution by reliable sources notice board http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Migraine_Associated_Vertigo 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 04:57, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Don't complain to me, HelloAnnyong has taken it to dispute resolution. See above for a link to another source, a published review article. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 17:50, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
In doing my own research on MAV, I noticed that there is not a consistent terminology used by the medical community. It is sometimes called "vestibular migraine" and sometimes called "migraine-related vestibulopathy" among other things. I have added those synonyms to the lead paragraph.
I have tried to fix some of the confusion between the words "dizziness" and "vertigo." The first one is a non-technical term and may refer to any number of sensations. Vertigo is a technical term that refers to a certain type of sensation. (The corresponding articles right here in Wikipedia are pretty clear on the distinctions.)
As I understand it, vertigo is a symptom of migraine that certain people experience and others do not. (I realize that nothing is conclusive yet, scientifically speaking.) It is sometimes combined with other symtpoms, including the classic headache. It is sometimes the sole symtpom of migraine. I write that to say that where the article overlaps with the articles on vertigo and migraine, we need not include too much techincal detail in this particular article.
Some of the earlier edits seem very confusing and seem to have distorted the material quoted. I do not believe that the original contributor/editor of the article had the original source material in front of him or that he understood it very well. -- Logophile ( talk) 14:29, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone object to a legitimate and neutral support forum being added to the "External Links"? The forum (www.mvertigo.org) has been online for over 5 years, has a link at Johns Hopkins, and is referenced in patient information sheets at Massachusetts Eye and Ear Infirmary. There is input on the forum from two top specialists in the migraine field. Furthermore, the site is grounded in science-based information (i.e. evidence) and does not tolerate the promotion or sales of any products –– particularly of the MLM type. studio34 ( talk) 02:15, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
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As vestibular migraine has gained credibility and wide acceptance in the medical community as a stand-alone migraine variant disorder, most contemporary academic discussions of the disorder refer to it as "Vestibular Migraine" and not "Migraine Associated Vertigo". I believe it is useful to change the title of the article to reflect this phenomenon. AGIwithTheBraids ( talk) 16:42, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||
|
Ideal sources for Wikipedia's health content are defined in the guideline
Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) and are typically
review articles. Here are links to possibly useful sources of information about Migraine-associated vertigo.
|
A good deal of unreferenced statements in the article. Removed how-to and dosage information per WP:MEDMOS. Inserted fact tags, where citation needed. Tricyclics do NOT accumulate in the body, this is bull, 25 pound weight gain is also not typical. Please see what books and publications are appropriate as references. Provide PMIDs of your journal citations. Conference papers are less useful. Same for web presence of a clinic. We need peer-reviewed sources. The whole article needs rework for proper references. I fixed your inline references, you forgot the reflist. I deleted the spurious repetition of the refs at the end. You had a references syntax error. Please take items not related to the article back to your talk page. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 01:49, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
Note that Julcal is a known spammer and originally wrote this article with an indirect link via her forum pointing to a bogus selling scheme website ( http://www.feed-your-cells.com/) promoting a cure for this condition. The company is called Enzacta and is an MLM scheme. Keep an eye on this article for outbound links. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Studio34 ( talk • contribs) 02:05, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
The accusation is not ludicrous. This is not the only incidence, and it won't be the last. He shows up wherever I make a presence on the internet. -- Julcal ( talk) 14:09, 14 April 2009 (UTC)julcal
Hi. I saw this page listed for a third opinion, so here's my thoughts. A great deal of this article is somewhat dubious, and it needs a great deal of work. I've marked the article with a list of issues; please resolve them before removing those tags. Studio34, can you show me some proof of what you're talking about? I don't see that site listed in any of the sources. Either way, the lead needs to be reworked to actually describe what migraine-associated vertigo is. I mean, the name sort of implies the meaning, but we could use more clarification there. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 02:35, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Alright, I'm starting to see how this is working. Julcal, you wrote "My website is great and it's a great product. MLMs are not schemes, pyramids are." This is not a place for you to promote your website. Do you run http://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/? — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 02:36, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Hello Scott (Studio34). Now he accuses me of plagarism. My article doesn't have a chance with him on board, so I have removed it. I was trying to do a good thing giving migraine-associated vertigo a presence on the internet. There are so many MAV sufferers who are confused about what is ailing them. I realized that MAV was my illness when I read posts on Studio34's forum which I happened across through an outgoing link on Wikipedia. When I did the same, I was accused of being a spammer. --
Julcal (
talk)
16:10, 14 April 2009 (UTC)julcal
AND this issue has been resolved, fairly and squarely. Although it needs work, I am proud of this article. It fills a much needed void for all those MAVers who don't know what the heck is going on with them. I hope someday it will be a great article. Thanks to all who are working on it constructively.-- Julcal ( talk) 22:52, 14 April 2009 (UTC)julcal
A situation involving editing here is being discussed at the Administrators' Notice Board. DGG ( talk) 16:09, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
As an aspiring neurologist and someone who is intimately interested in neurological, vertigo, dizziness and associated disorders I can attest that this is a real medical condition which several specialized treatment centers. However the article, as currently written, does not seem to be as encyclopedic as it could be. I will try to get involved in certain sections and add appropriate references and make the tone neutral. Basket of Puppies 17:39, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
I have rewritten the Intro and sourced it to Dr Hain. I believe that it's now neutral and concise. Thoughts? Basket of Puppies 18:26, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
The section "Symptoms and Syndromes Associated with MAV" and the section "Vertigo Syndromes Associated with Migraine" seem to me either duplicative or overlapping, but perhaps someone else can clear it up better than I. DGG ( talk) 19:53, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
We need an exact reference for the Conference, in a published source. We spell out journal names. I have started combining references, using the named reference format, but this should be done for the rest of the article also. DGG ( talk) 19:53, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Propose to replace links to the vertigo website by Hain and other self-published and clinic links by peer reviewed articles with PMID numbers, preferably secondary references and not primary research or case reports or anecdotes. Given that the mentioned specialists are described as well known capacities of their field with lots of peer reviewed publications, this should be no problem with pubmed searches for the topics. The conference proceedings indeed need to be replaced by publicized peer reviewed articles with PMIDs too. See WP:MEDMOS for the acceptable references and the exclusion of self-published materials, except under very narrow and hard to verify circumstances. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 09:52, 15 April 2009 (UTC) 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 09:52, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15837905?ordinalpos=42&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12521357?ordinalpos=62&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8586026?ordinalpos=97&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
I would not find the self published paper. It could be he never sent it to a journal. Regardless, I believe it should be included and used as a reliable source. Basket of Puppies 03:48, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, 3 papers are meager, when a previous discussion mentioned 77 published peer reviewed papers. Given the situation I would exclude the self-published paper for WP:MEDMOS guidelines about sources and self-published references, see there and look also at the broad associated discussion of this topic in WP. As his clinic site is material of his own clinic business I would additionally exclude it for COI. Go find more peer reviewed sources with pubmed, which support the article little by little. Exclude the Hain clinic site. Thats how reliable sourcing works. See how to get a cross section of contemporary medical mainstream opinion from pubmed and use that to support or contradict sentence by sentence of the article. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 04:04, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Also use pubmed to find citations of his work and look at those. Find citations of his conference paper and PMID of that conference paper too, otherwise exclude it for reasons above. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 04:09, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications.
Persons with Dizzines" Neurol Clin 23 (2005) 831–853 as a reference. He says the paper on his website is only self-published at this point so this other one might be useful in some ways. Basket of Puppies 16:32, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Is it in pubmed? get PMID please. Is it on the web as a link to be included in fulltext? That would be nice. This is much better than the previous vandalism discussion, warnings and page blanking discussions. Please also see below for a review article useful as a reference, I put the link. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 17:50, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
This is due to preference to be given to published, peer reviewed papers, and also to SPS .com publications being frowned upon due to commercial interest tainting neutrality in principle and by COI. See discussion on dispute resolution page and answer by User:Chaldor. Is the review article linked below in fulltext useful as a reference and to locate more references? 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 18:21, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
In a short formula SPS is not a license for experts to push their own commercial interest site into WP as references, if other solutions are open, if other sources can be used for the same purpose. SPS may apply for a Nobel price laureate having published a singular book on the topic. Not for a doctors office patient information site. Maybe discuss the topic with Dr. Hain again and get his opinion? Discuss the reference guidelines and COI topics in particular. What about below link to a review article, which could be used for the purpose? Your opinion? 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 18:33, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Calcium channel blockers Drug (brand name) Dose Uses Common adverse reactions Cinnarizine (Stugeron) (not FDA approved) 25 mg three times a day Migraine, vertigo Sleepiness, weight gain Flunarizine (Sibelium) (not FDA approved) 10 mg at bedtime Migraine, vertigo, motion sickness Sleepiness, weight gain Nimodipine (Nimotop) 30 mg twice a day Migraine, Meniere’s Headache, flushing Verapamil 120 mg sustained release at bedtime Migraine Constipation
Basket of Puppies 18:38, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
According to WP:MEDMOS dosage information and how-to of treatment is to be excluded from the article. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 18:47, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Remains the question of how far this is a How-To or treatment algorithm description and if and when this belongs here according to guidelines. This will probably develop in the details, as the article develops. Also possible to discuss at WT:MED. The entries for the particular medications are already present and may profit from adding MAV related information in their indications section, so you can take a look if you see room for improvement there too. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 19:15, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
See e.g. flunarizine and cinnarizine for reference, they also include references for their use in migraine and MAV. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 19:22, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Re: Flunarizine (Sibelium) for migraine, MAV. The 10mg at bed time are the standard dosage recommendation for this indication, according to package insert. So there is no reason for including dosage information, according to MEDMOS guide lines. - There are no special circumstances making the standard dosage in a labeled indication per package insert notable. Same for side effects. (That it is not FDA approved does not make it so special, it is approved and labeled for this indication in Europe.) 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 10:45, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Same for Cinnarizine. It is std dosage range, described side effects according to package insert/monograph. Nothing out of the ordinary. No reason for including dosage for special circumstances or discussion, per WP:MEDMOS. This will all probably develop during the further development of the article. But maybe a reason to improve the articles of flunarizine and cinnarizine by working on the side effects list. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 12:13, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
HelloAnyong - Will you follow procedure and discuss edits on the talk page, by answering to the controversial points in question. Will you not call valid concerns vandalism again, and will you immediately remove such notice from my talk page. That "several editors" think a commercial website is a feasible reference is not enough. Will you please read the guidelines and the discussion for the point in question. Sources have to be neutral and peer reviewed, this ref is the website of a private business. See talk page above, the concerns about the sourcing of the article exist from the beginning, and we have to proceed to improve the sourcing as described above. Please read again. I have explained the sourcing guidelines enough. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 00:52, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Basket of Puppies: Please will you not describe removal of a reference as "page blanking" and remove your related warning from my talk page. There is nothing ambiguous about the situation. A link to a private medical office is not a feasible reference, please convince yourself at WP:MEDMOS that self published materials are not valid references. Furthermore a link to a private business constitutes advertisement for the commercial purpose of that site and constitutes spam for that reason. By this nature such links also constitute a conflict of interest. Sources have to be neutral and peer reviewed. They preferably represent broad medical consensus as reflected in secondary sources. There are guidelines. Please read them. The article now almost exclusively sources to Dr. Hains commercial activities, and this has to be removed. This has now been on this talk page for sufficient time to be answered in a meaningful way. That one or more editors think the source is such an authority that we can skip or override the sourcing guidelines seems to be a misunderstanding of WP policies and guidelines. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 00:29, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Annyong, you seem to misunderstand that multiple users can simply think something is RS, even it is a single commercial website. There are guidelines, described above, and I ask them to be respected. Please discuss, and don't call valid removal of commercial websites as vandalism. Don't do that again. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 00:29, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
The applicable guidelines are to be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources_(medicine-related_articles)
70.137.153.83 ( talk) 04:36, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
“ | Reliable primary sources can add greatly to a medical article, but must be used with care because of the potential for misuse. For that reason, edits that rely on primary sources should only describe the conclusions of the source, and should describe these findings clearly so the edit can be checked by editors with no specialist knowledge. In particular, this description should follow closely to the interpretation of the data given by the authors, or by other reliable secondary sources. | ” |
Ergots and isometheptene are not triptans according to high school chemistry. See triptans. isometheptene and ergotamine and look at the structure. They just don't belong there by definition. Please find a RS that chicken soup is not nerve gas. That kind of bogus. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 06:04, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Turns out that the previous corrections I had applied corrected mere misinterpretations of Dr. Hain's site by editor Julcal. He doesn't say ergot and isometheptene are triptans. Anyway, it is correct now. His site is patient advice. I would prefer to source to his published writing in peer reviewed journals if possible. I certainly have no preoccupation against him, just want the article well sourced. It needs work, do we agree about that? And editors here have to stop the habit of calling every inconvenient argument or constructive criticism vandalism or "page blanking". Teaching must be hell in this country. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 08:33, 20 April 2009 (UTC) 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 09:16, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
A Brasilian friend has dug out the following review article, which contains a whole lot of useful references. So you can use these to not solely rely on Dr. Hain's site as reference.
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0034-72992008000400020&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en
70.137.153.83 ( talk) 12:22, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
See here for dispute resolution by reliable sources notice board http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Migraine_Associated_Vertigo 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 04:57, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Don't complain to me, HelloAnnyong has taken it to dispute resolution. See above for a link to another source, a published review article. 70.137.153.83 ( talk) 17:50, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
In doing my own research on MAV, I noticed that there is not a consistent terminology used by the medical community. It is sometimes called "vestibular migraine" and sometimes called "migraine-related vestibulopathy" among other things. I have added those synonyms to the lead paragraph.
I have tried to fix some of the confusion between the words "dizziness" and "vertigo." The first one is a non-technical term and may refer to any number of sensations. Vertigo is a technical term that refers to a certain type of sensation. (The corresponding articles right here in Wikipedia are pretty clear on the distinctions.)
As I understand it, vertigo is a symptom of migraine that certain people experience and others do not. (I realize that nothing is conclusive yet, scientifically speaking.) It is sometimes combined with other symtpoms, including the classic headache. It is sometimes the sole symtpom of migraine. I write that to say that where the article overlaps with the articles on vertigo and migraine, we need not include too much techincal detail in this particular article.
Some of the earlier edits seem very confusing and seem to have distorted the material quoted. I do not believe that the original contributor/editor of the article had the original source material in front of him or that he understood it very well. -- Logophile ( talk) 14:29, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone object to a legitimate and neutral support forum being added to the "External Links"? The forum (www.mvertigo.org) has been online for over 5 years, has a link at Johns Hopkins, and is referenced in patient information sheets at Massachusetts Eye and Ear Infirmary. There is input on the forum from two top specialists in the migraine field. Furthermore, the site is grounded in science-based information (i.e. evidence) and does not tolerate the promotion or sales of any products –– particularly of the MLM type. studio34 ( talk) 02:15, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
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As vestibular migraine has gained credibility and wide acceptance in the medical community as a stand-alone migraine variant disorder, most contemporary academic discussions of the disorder refer to it as "Vestibular Migraine" and not "Migraine Associated Vertigo". I believe it is useful to change the title of the article to reflect this phenomenon. AGIwithTheBraids ( talk) 16:42, 28 April 2023 (UTC)