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It used to say that Cook was born in Mbro. I can't see that this was correct as he was born in Marton at a time when Mbro hardly existed, so it sounds weird to say he was born there - no-one at the time would have seen it that way. I have corrected it with slightly clunky wording - feel free to tidy up. Nevilley 15:52, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
I don't think Ridley Scott and Tony Scott are "from Middlesbrough". I think they spent some time in Teesside, but in Stockton rather then Middlesbrough? They seem to have moved around an awful lot. -- Amortize 16:15, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I have added a good deal to this entry,and eliminated the Scotts. Ridley was born in South Shields. I found a vandalism inserted by someone with a hatred of Newcastle. I am editing a number of sites, so am just inserting the material for the moment and will be back to finish the job properly.
Emmet 15.10 11 June 2005 I've done the best I can to tidy up.I think it reads well
Emmet 15.08 12 June 2005
Why include the 'crap towns' allusion? This was a poorly researched publication, meant as entertainment. Why use that to run Middlesbrough down? I wonder if the other 49 towns have mentioned their inclusion. I think not. It's not very encyclopaedic anyway, so I suggest it be omitted.
Emmet 20.12 11 July 2005
Ditto on your observations over the 'Crap Towns' remark. That said, I personally don't have too many objections to its inclusion, despite being something of a Middlesbrough proponent. It is inserted in humoured spirit, and the comment in question is both well-mannered and sympathetic ("misfortune") etc. So, no strictly NPOV but true, nor is it to be deemed as generic encyclopedia fare either.
20 Dec 2005
I'm a UoT graduate and I seem to remember the VR center being finished? See: VR Centre mini-site
The town and borough are the same place, jimfbleak 17:07, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
The people of Eston and Normanby where/are fiercely independent of Middlesbrough and on several occasions fought the Councils of Middlesbrough through Parliment. The area of Eston and Normanby was run by The Eston Urban District Council.
Eston and Normanby have existed long before Middlesbrough, yes they are seperate Towns tow Middlesbrough and have never been in an actual BOROUGH of Middlesbrough, as in to say, Eston District wasn't under the Authority of Middlesbrough council, but the whole Eston Urban District was under the Local government and parliamentary control (for the use of elections) of the Middlesbrough Urban Sanitary District. South bank, Teessville and the younger generations of people from Grangetown are more likely to Say they are from Middlesbrough. Grangetown & Southbank were built sometime in the 1880's, the land it was built on was bought by the owners of Middlesbrough, was served by Middlesbrough transport authority and used Water supplied by Middlesbrough. Funny how Eston always protested against merging officially within the Borough of Middlesbrough yet it was merged with Langbaurgh with no hassle!!! Check out these web sites
Also regarding the current population of Middlesbrough. If the Town of Middlesbrough has 135,000, how on earth can the whole Borough amount to 140,000? There is around 12,000 in Coulby Newham alone, plus the populations of Stainton, Thornton, Hemlington and Nunthorpe!!
A continuous stretch of urbanisation in itself can be regarded as a town, as towns do not neccessarily need to be a sub-set of any particular Borough or area of local government, that is they form a continous area of housing or industry without any definate or visible boundaries between the subsequent administrative districts. So in every way exept for local government, Eston is part of Middlesbrough Town.
I'm sorry about using this Talk page to ask a question for my own personal research purposes; but (1) this seems a likely place to get a good answer, and (2) perhaps the answer is something about which a Wikipedia article should be written.
Basically, I am trying to remember the name of a town or village, as well as the names of two specific features within that locale. (Sorry about town/village; although I've lived in England and look forward to returning, I'm from the U.S., where, at least idiomatically, such terms as city and town are used much less restrictively.)
In July 1997, on a coach day-trip from Darlington to Whitby, my girlfriend and I stopped in a little place on the way to Whitby. I keep thinking that it was called Middlesbrough, but maybe I'm wrong. Or maybe we took a small van to Middlesbrough, then boarded a coach there, and then stopped in yet another place, to get out and spend some time, before the tour resumed the journey to Whitby.
Anyway, the place I'm thinking of struck me as relatively small—though perhaps we were simply in a small-seeming area, or suburb, of a larger place. I don't remember any buildings of more than two or three storeys. The first stop was at what I would call a ruin. It was a stone house, possibly roofless in some places, that seems, in my memory, to be from the Middle Ages. In one large room, with large, glassless windows, the floor (dirt, possibly covered with gravel of very small pebbles) was wet either from the lack of a roof or from leaks in the roof. Within some minutes' walk of this old house, which may, in fact, have been called a castle, there was a lively market square.
In case it helps in terms of market days: we were there on Friday 4, or possibly Saturday 5, July 1997.
I'd be really grateful if anyone could help me figure out the name of the locale as well as the 'ruin'. (I do know some part of the ruin had a roof, because I remember being in a dark alcove of a window and taking a silhouette picture of my girlfriend's profile against the light coming in through the window; this was in a room whose floor may have been perhaps a meter below ground.) I could show a photo taken in the aforementioned wet-floored room if it would help someone help me identify the place.
Thanks again, and sorry about putting a personal question here. Still, once I find out the name of this place, I wouldn't mind researching and then creating a Wikipedia article on it.
Again, I'd like to know the name of the locale, the name of the old house, and the name of the market square. Thanks! President Lethe 18:18, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
The route to Whitby would go through Guisborough, where there is a ruin ( Priory ) and a popular market. To go to Whitby via Helmsley doesnt make sense because you wuld have to back over the moors, you would go to Scarborough via Helmsley.
I have removed an incorrect statement regarding the comparison of the size of the towns.
Measured by Urban sub-area as defined by the Office for National Statistics (which is based upon the pre-1974 local authorities):
This shows that Middlesbrough is the largest town in North Yorkshire and in Teeside, but is the smallest of the three major towns in the north east. Steven J 23:57, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I apologise for the statement, i was referring to the actual land area as oppose to population, my mistake.
Tsider 19:53, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
This is referring to the population of Middlesbrough Town. According to the most recent article, Middlesbrough has a population of 142,691. How on earth can this be true? The population of the whole borough is just over 147,000!! So how can the Town be 142,000 and the borough have 147,000 when Nunthorpe has 4,620, Marton has over 9,990 and Coulby Newham has over 12,000 people? That isnt even including Stainton, Thornton and Hemlington which are seperate settlements from Middlesbrough Town!!! If Middlesbrough Town had a population of 142,000, then from the population of Nunthorpe, Marton and Coulby, the whole borough would be around 157,000, even without the settlements of Stainton, Thornton and Hemlington added!!!!!
Hmm, still doesnt make sense. I agree with Towns not ahving to be within a certain administrative area and can indeed cross over into 2 seperate ones which is apparent in the case of Middlesbrough/Eston area. The Info from the Key Statistics given by ONS, gives each of the main Towns of Teesside as oppose to the collective district each belong to. So it is still apparent that the Town of Middlesbrough has 142, 691. Fair enough but then the Borough of Middlesbrough would have nearly 200,000? Here are some figures which Ive gathered from various sources such as Tees Valley Statistics and local council websites:
Middlesbrough Town = 142,691 (mid 2005). Stainton & Thornton = 3,500. Hemlington = 4,000. Coulby Newham = 11,600. Marton = 9,990. Nunthorpe = 4,620.
From these figures it would mean that The Borough of Middlesbrough has a population of over 176,401??? This is obviousely wrong. Maybe the ONS have counted the Town of Middlesbrough as the whole Borough!!. So with that figi=ure in mind, and the addition of Eston (which is part of the Middlesbrough Urban Area), Middlesbrough has over 209,189!!! hmmm, cud anyone divulge any info on ow this can be? tsider 22:32, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I have removed this derogatory term as it no longer has any relevance to Middlesbrough. The air is much cleaner nowadays and has been known to be cleaner than most large Urban areas such as Birmingham and Manchester. It has been known as the "Armpit of England" not so much for its pollution but more its industrial landscape. It has also be noted as the skid mark on Britains underwear but I do not agree both are worth noting. No matter what people say about Middlesbrough, it was one of the most important industrial Towns and greatly helped in shaping Britain tsider 1:00, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Well - I would have to disagree with dj_paul. This is an encyclopaedia, and therefore should include even "derogatory" terms, because it is a piece of information about Middlesbrough which people would like to hear. Ciao.
I really disagree with the inclusion of the "Armpit Of England" section of this article. As this is an encyclopedia it should be based on fact and not opinion. The development of middlesbrough compared to urban cities like liverpool and manchester has been slower but as Middlesbrough doesn't have city status and is a much younger town in comparison I think this is to be expected. Supposedly being called the "Armpit Of England" (being from Middlesbrough I have heard this term used for many towns in england) I think has no educational weight. For this reason I have excluded this section. Dangerhertz 15:55 8 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm with Dangerhertz, opinion should be avoided unless it can be cited from a reasonable source... even if it a fairly accurate description. I hate it here.
86.30.14.139 (
talk)
11:36, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
In response: 1) It says "Urban Centres", not "Urban Cities" 2) Whilst Middlesbrough may be smaller and "younger," the dockyard work brough a huge number of immigrants to areas such as Middlesbrough, Liverpool and Manchester. As such, they are comparable as industrial sites. The fact that Middlesbrough is smaller could be a sign of its failure, especially given the present circumstances. Whilst Manchester and Liverpool have regenerated successfully, it seems that Middlesbrough is having problems which one art gallery and putting slippery tiles in the town centre will not solve. 3) I too am from Middlesbrough. 4) The fact that this term has been used for many towns in England does not mean that it should not be used about Middlesbrough 5) This is not merely an opinion. As you yourself have admitted, this phrase is used about Middlesbrough, therefore has a right of place in an encyclopaedia. 6) What exactly do you mean by "educational weight"? To me, this means nothing.
--Pjmc 18:56, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
What I meant by educational weight was, this term "Armpit of England" is not exclusive to Middlesbrough and isn't an accurate description of this one town it's also not representative of mass opinion regarding middlesbrough, Therefore it's not giving anyone wishing to learn about middlesbrough any real knowledge of the town itself. The section on crime doesn't show middlesbrough in a good light BUT it is based on facts and figures whereas the "Armpit of England" section is pure opinion and therefore I dont think should be included. Whatever it is you think of regarding the efforts of Middlesbrough Council to regenerate middlesbrough is fine and in some senses I agree that we could be doing a lot better but I think it's upto wikipedia as a whole to give the facts on a subject thus leaving people to garner there own opinions and not sway peoples opinion on certain subjects
-- Dangerhertz 15:55 8 April 2006 (UTC)
I think you have a very perverted sense of what a "fact" is. I think you will find that it is FACT that Middlesbrough has been called "the armpit of england" and therefore, by your own acknowledgment, has a right to be entered in the section on Middlesbrough. As I said before, this is no longer stated as personal opinion, but as merely a fact. --Pjmc 13:47, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Is this there anywhere that you can find that Middlesbrough has been officially named as "Armpit of England" or is there a survey that you can produce that proves that the popular opinion of the people is that middlesbrough is in fact "Armpit of England" if so then I agree wholeheartedly that it should be included. But as we have already established this term is used for many different towns. Does this mean we should put it on every article of any town that has ever been described "Armpit of England"?
--Dangerhertz 15:55 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Even if only in the name of hazy affirmation, I do feel a considerable urge to back up dj_paul on this matter. Statements being made are indeed fact; albeit by the vagary of what they are, having little correlation with the level of infatuation of that which is said - clearly, in this case, particularly high, when not even a statistic or survey result, in themselves rather spurious and subjective in nature, is even inserted. On moral grounds alone, irrespective of the presence or otherwise of a system-wide 'NPOV' agenda no town featured on Wikipedia anywhere in the world warrants a section headlined "Armpit of Britain" or anything remotely resembling it. Hence, a clean and just victory for staple common sense here. - MRacer
Just regarding the neighbourhoods. Some of thhose in the list arent neighbourhoods as such but are whole Villages or nowadays the Electoral wards based on the old Village parishes. The neighbourhoods are within these and are much smaller. Whinneybanks, Tollesby, Saltersgill and Berwick Hills are neighbourhoods whereas Acklam, Grove Hill and North Ormesby are the respective wards. Also if Nunthorpe and Ormesby are included in the list, surely Grangetown and Southbank should be included, after all they are far more closley related to Middlesbrough than Redcar even if they are not under Middlesbrough Council! tsider 24:51, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
The statement "Six Bend Trap is the first ever feature film made in the Middlesbrough area" is out-dated and not true. There have been other feature films made in Middlesbrough, including Bacon-Based Bastards, Sub Zero and Gangsters In Love. There is some truth in the statement however. Six Blend Trap is the first feature film to be shot in the area using HD-TV cameras. -- Joe 01:56, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Norf n Lights are an entertainer in the city. Fine, they can be listed with the other entertainers, but the extra section on them alone is inappropriate. Two entries in the External Links is probably overkill as well, but I'm on the fence of that one. I suggest removing the Norf n Lights section. (I'd have done it myself if Firefox didn't cut short on long pages.)
--
BakerQ
00:24, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
They seem to be a sufficiently obscure outfit to me so as to be deservedly omitted completely, as is precisely what I have initiated. Such dubious bandying of promotive blurb as this, I wouldn't deem unfamiliar: the Saltburn article was at one point similarly plagued. But we're Wikipedians, so I'm sure we aptly can 'police' the situation... -- MRacer 15:43, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I have posted a question at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_UK_subdivisions regarding the present split between the articles Middlesbrough and Middlesbrough (borough) and invite comments. I note that the articles are mutually contradictory, in that Middlesbrough claims that it is larger than Middlesbrough (borough), but Middlesbrough (borough) identifies places outside Middlesbrough that are in the borough; but these places are places that Middlesbrough claim are in Middlesbrough. Please leave general comments there. Morwen - Talk 23:07, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I've looked at their website for a source for this 180,000 figure, and can't find it. [5] shows their population figures, which are all entirely based on local authority and ward boundaries. I cannot find any attempt at them identifying a Greater Middlesbrough area. Morwen - Talk 09:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I have had trouble locating the exact file on the interent. It was a pdf that I found through google. It was a document from the Tees Valley Joint Strategy Unit but I did not access the file through the website itself. It may be best to remove the statement or change it to be viewed form a local rather than offical point of view until I can relocate this file. Being a local lad, any other references to the Urban area is purely a local matter and recognised by the locality. It is simply based on the fact that Middlesbrough/Eston is bordered by the Tees, A19, North Yorkshire and the ICI Wilton site so it becomes one Urban entity (although part of Teesside aswell) tsider 00:55, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi. Yes it was me who made the edits and after looking back on the previous , it sounds like the rantings of a madman. It is a touchy subject from where im from and something that I feel strongly about. In the edits it is apparent that I have sacrificed fact for local knowledge and opinion. As wikipedia is an encylopeadia its a meant for factual topics based on real factual evidence rather than opinon. As I am a local lad brought up in Eston, I have gone into each edit ignorantly believing that what is local knowledge on Teesside is also common to the rest of the UK. As I and most of Middlesbrough believe, Eston & Southbank is Middlesbrough but I now realise that this is not hard fact and there are no real statistics for this and the only official definition for Middlesbrough is based on the local authority. I was wondering if it would be appropriate to add info about what is perceived locally as middlesbrough, with the inclusion of what officially entails as Middlesbrough. BTW the 182,000 was not a Tees Valley Joint Strategy Unit stat but an informal way used by them to establish projects on Teesside based on the Middlesbrough PCT area (Middlesbrough & Eston). Sorry for any inconvenince as Im not an experience Wikipedian butI am very enthusiastic about my locality. In future I wil stick to facts and figures. tsider 19:36, 30th October 2006 (UTC)
Cheeky B******! Maybe people living in central Boro cannot afford it but people living in the suburban areas (who traditional are the better off ones anyway) can! Just look at the house prices in Yarm, Marton, Nunthorpe, Acklam! Love the way no-one can delet it aswell, Sly! 00:39 11, September 2006 (UTC)
Who is Paul Emmett? I've removed him from the list of notable musicians because he doesn't seem to be famous. Epimorph 12:51, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone offer any information regarding the Middlesbrough registration district from 1901. I happened to come across a site which offers census data from 1901 and was curious about the Middlesbrough area. Now I know there is always controversy and split opinion when it comes to the "Southbank & Eston being part of Middlesbrough" arguement, but when I looked into the census data for Southbank, Ormesby and Eston they refer themselves to being within the Registration district of Middlesbrough as sub-districts of Middlesbrough and was also part of its parliamentary borough. What were these districts used for and do they constitute the said areas being a part of Middlesbrough in any form?
This is the site from which I found the data:
http://www.1901censusonline.com/results.asp?wci=locale_results&px=1&searchwci=locale_search —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.11.18.231 ( talk) 15:32, 4 March 2007 (UTC).
I think that it would be helpful for non-Britons if a pronuciation guide, using the phonetic alphabet, was included. I can't do any better than "middles-bru", where the u is as in cup. That's clearly not good enough. Dancarney 14:24, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Its more like Middles-bra
I have added the received pronunciation version, though the local pronunciation is probably different. Falconer 21:45, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Although the fact is probably true about it being voted tenth 'crappiest' town in the UK, should this really be on the middlesbrough wiki page? When I saw Bath appear above Middlesrbough on the list (along with some others), I realised that this list must have been made by picking town names out of a hat. Are there no better gradings of towns around? If not, then I think this should just be removed. It's a joke, wich makes me naturally question the rest of what I read on the page. Ben 01:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)Cr
I think you'll find, actually, that there is nothing 'factual' about either opposing assertion; ie. that Middlesbrough is even in the remotest sense, a 'crap' town or an utter urban utopia... MRacer 23:29, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Its part of the reputation of the place, see also
[6] where 'Boro has found a place into the top ten worst towns to live for the 3rd sucessive year, this year wining the 'honor' (07)--
GazMan7
12:17, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
In the first paragraph I wrote that Middlesbrough was the first town in the world to owe its exitsence to a railway. I think that this is important enough to have a prominent mentiom. Although the name is much older than this, as the article makes clear, the urban settlement would not have started without the S&D extension. (The Pease family of course wore the initial financial backers of the S&D). Sasha 19:14, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Why has the population of the Urban area been change to match the District population? Surely that population has been stated within the Borough of Middlesbrough article has it not? The population of Middlesbrough Urban area as defined by the ONS is 142,691, which is the appropriate figure to include in the Town article. Most of the articles on Wikipedia, when describing Towns, use the Urban sub-area figure from the ONS for the population so why not for Middlesbrough? I have changed the population accordingly | statistics for Urban sub-areas Tsider 22:50, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Now I agree that the majority of Redcar & Cleveland, possibly even the council itself, would count the areas above as Middlesbrough (based on them having a Middlesbrough address rather than being located in that particular district) but they are not officially part of Middlesbrough, which I believe they should.
I too agree with the Grangetown, Southbank, Eston and Lazenby areas of Redcar & Cleveland being part of Middlesbrough, regrdless of its council and local administration, as it forms part of the same continuous urban area, not to mention them all having a Middlesbrough postal address instead of a Redcar one. It seems apparent that the addresses given to where people live and establishments are do not reflect the council area they are within, so why should being within one council area mean you are not part of another Town? Anyway, locally, the area is seen as Middlesbrough, but apparently the government know better and the office for National statistics decided that those areas are part of a seperate urban-sub area, even though they have a Middlesbrough Postal address AND are linked directly by sprawl.
Also another thing, the popualtion of the actual Middlesbrough Urban sub-area is 142,691 not 199,000... If the whole of the Middlesbrough area is counted as one single urban-sub are like it should be then it still only amounts to around 180,000. For this I have taken the liberty to change the population back ( although 180,000 would be more appropriate in my view as a local!) Tsider 22:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, I'm from Teesside and I'm not sure that I would could Redcar as part of Middlesbrough any more than I would Stockton, Billingham or Hartlepool. It is sufficiently different not to be counted, but it should be mentioned as an adjacent town. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.104.164.93 ( talk) 23:23, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
In the articles for Grangetown, Southbank, Eston, Teesville, Normanby and Ormesby I have made changes to parts which say the above areas are part of a Middlesbrough 'conurbation' and replaced it with 'Agglomeration' as conurbation gives the impression it forms a much larger area than it really does. Tsider 12:31, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Just a question... why do some editors seem to have such an aversion to providing links to specific dates in an article, and proceed to actually remove them? We are, after all, constructing an encyclopedia here, resplendent with, and better thanks to (or so I thought), as many relevant and interesting links as possible. Might somebody not wish to click on them in order to gain a wider, world view of events contemporary to a particular date? It's hardly as if there aren't plenty of them, after all! Isn't it more of a headache, that editors removing links to dates are therefore making them too indistinct in the article? Or is all this palaver over having them (or otherwise) simply some result of a broader Wikipedia policy of which I am unaware and which I have to say, if anything, I hardly like the sound, or understand the logic, of?
Do clarify, if there are any objectors to me finally adding linked dates back into the article, please. MRacer ( talk) 20:32, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Oh, and while I'm here, just a response to the cheeky remark made by an anonymous editor (who would therefore presumably lend himself to not being easily 'chased up') under the 'History' tab. Of course that particular Odean Cinema is based in Middlesbrough, and at no point did I ever suggest that it was based in the "Dales". Or in Leeds. Or in London. Which correctly makes it 'Middlesbrough-based'. 'Base' on its own simply means foundation, where it is. It doesn't imply that the Cinema (aside from the perfectly legitimate idea that Middlesbrough is hardly the only location on the planet with an outpost of the Odean Cinema 'chain') ever physically travels anywhere, because cinemas, of course, don't. That does go without saying in my world at least, anyway. :D MRacer ( talk) 13:26, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Could the high crime rate be partly due to the use of cameras and zero tolerence policy leading to more incidents being recorded? -- Another berean ( talk) 14:51, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
No, just because incidents are observed it doesnt necessarily mean they will be recorded by the police, neither does it mean they will be attended. For example, on Friday evenings when traditionally things "Kick Off" the police are too understaffed to go to all incidents so its quite common that the footage will be recorded and viewed by police later, but if the victim or witnesses dont come forward to report the incident its not recorded.
Crime is underreported across Great Britain which is why some people say the British Crime Survey tells a more accurate picture. It suggests that certain crimes are underreported by as much as 50%, 90% when you include low volume offences such as Homophobic and Racially aggravated offences.
Middlesbroughs current rate of crime at 170 per 1,000 is below what it was in 2002-03 at 209 per 1,000 but the England average is only 100. The Met Police has reduced even more significantly from 150 in 2002-03 to 105 in 2007 although certain individual boroughs remain high (Camden, Islington, Westminster, Hackney... all over 150).
Crime rates are falling nationally with strict government targets which expected 15% reductions in every part of the country between 2004-05 and 2006-07. For several years before this crime rates changed little in most of the high crime areas although this last 3 years have reduced significantly to meet the targets - Essentially in my opinion the targets set by the government have meant police are becoming more intelligent in the way they count/record crime, massaging the statistics to meet these targets which are profitable. Damn lies and statistics.
One thing that cannot be hidden though is the rise in that same period of street robbery and serious violent crime, although the numbers here are too low to impact on overall statistics so they are not "important" as they cant hinder the chance of meeting targets. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.254.162 ( talk) 18:23, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
There has to be some mention in the industrial section that the place was once thick with smog. The fans of the football club are called smoggies and there are songs about taking gas masks to the city for this very reason. The place is still not the cleanest air in Britain, and it used to be disgusting —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.68.223.212 ( talk) 15:20, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
No worst than any other industrial area (South Wales, East London), Cambridge has more air pollution than Middlesbrough! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.254.162 ( talk) 17:59, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Actually, an Evening Gazette news article reported, possibly around two years ago now, that Middlesbrough's air is actually now cleaner than that breathed by the Queen (ie. in the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea). I'm not sure what the implications subsequently were for Middlesbrough's national 'ranking', but it would almost certainly be worth finding the relevant link, were we to introduce such a section to the article. MRacer ( talk) 13:36, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Who are the top football teams in town other than the Premier League club? Kenallen ( talk) 23:15, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
There are no notable examples which haven't already been mentioned in individual suburb articles (like Marton FC). MRacer ( talk) 10:31, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
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I've added him back into the sports people list. I am not sure I can agree with the other editor that he is not notable: the fact that there's no wp article on him now is not the same thing. It is not correct that there is no evidence of notability and that he is not Googleable: see for example this, this and this. Thanks and best wishes DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered ( talk) 20:29, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
I have altered the opening paragraph on Middlesbrough to reflect the fact that Middlesbrough is not part of the County of North Yorkshire. Olive66 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Olive66 ( talk • contribs) 21:32, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
I reverted this recent edit which changed "town" to "city". City status in the United Kingdom makes it clear that Middlesbrough is not currently a city. The attempt from 88.108.45.197 to change that latter article too was not supported by any reference and has already been reverted by another editor. I'd suggest that this needs discussing here before any further change is made: a change to "city" will not stick without verifiable evidence to support it. Thanks and best wishes DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered ( talk) 14:33, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Someone at an IP addr. posted an entry to the effect that Mbro was twinned with Pyongyang in 1966. I removed it.
OK, the North Koreans did play at Ayresome Park in 1966 during the world cup. And maybe the respective mayors (it was a largely ceremonial post back then) did exchange flags or whatever. But can anyone document this? Djdaedalus ( talk) 13:27, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
At the same time as the above I restored Middlesborough, KY which I had previously removed, and gave a reference for the LGA list which contains it. However I do feel that the date of 1890 for a twinning is very unlikely but again maybe a reference can be found? cheers DBaK ( talk) 09:59, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
At the risk of making everyone even more disillusioned, bitter and knackered than they already are, I'd just like to point out MIMA and mima are used inconsistently in the article. Myself I'd prefer MIMA on the grounds that it is an acronym and I see no reason to cater to officials with an e.e.cummings fetish. As a comparison, the company AT&T is widely known by that acronym even though the modern logo is lowercase throughout. Djdaedalus ( talk) 19:29, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Are these recent Club Bongo edits serious? Djdaedalus clearly thinks not and I reverted the next editor to add it mostly on that ground, but I don't really know and I see there is something there called that. Can someone clarify please? I don't want to risk leaving vandalism or to discourage legit editors so I'd be very grateful for more information. DBaK ( talk) 20:06, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
I've snapped a few photos of the new " Boro Eye" attraction if someone wants to add one - and ideally some information - to the article. They were taken on an iPhone, so don't expect exceptional quality - more than good enough for a Wikipedia article, though. Recommended size is 320x480, so that or smaller as a thumbnail would be fine. Media:Boroeye_dusk.jpg | Media:Boroeye_dusk_close.jpg | Media:Boroeye_night1.jpg | Media:Boroeye_night2.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by Obsiburr ( talk • contribs) 21:21, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Middlesbrough/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
#References need attention by switching to one of the {{
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Last edited at 15:17, 20 January 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 15:23, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
Shouldn't Rob Smedley be in the notables list? Anyone with a Wikipedia entry would seem to be qualified. -- Kcrossle ( talk) 23:03, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
It's the old argument about whether a separately listed suburb also counts as part of the town, or whether it need to always be traeted as a place apart. Yes, everyone knows that Normanby is in Redcar and Cleveland, but it is, de facto, a part of Middlesbrough. Perhaps Middlesbrough could be seen as including Nunthorpe and Eston, perhaps even Lazenby - after that there is a wilderness until you come to habitations that could be said to belong to Redcar.
Looking from the other direction - what about people who belong to Linthorpe? Are they from Middlesbrough? Is that a separate place? (I love it when Linthorpe people get onto the bus and say "The Village" and the Redcar driver says, "Which village?" ... sorry that's unrelated really). -- Francis Hannaway Francis Hannaway 19:49, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
I have no knowledge of, nor can find any reference to, places in Middlesbrough called Town East or Town West. Town Farm - yes, I know that exists. But where are those other two? Francis Hannaway 14:11, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Hi. I made two changes to this article's infobox data and wanted to check that others thought them OK. Or, er, not. Firstly I reverted a change made very recently when an editor changed the town's name to all caps. The infobox documentation doesn't mention all caps but Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(capital_letters)#All_caps doesn't suggest this usage and general usage elsewhere would not seem to support this change. The other change I made was to remove the nickname "Ironopolis". The template documentation at Template:Infobox_settlement#Images, Nickname, Motto says "well-known nickname(s)" and I am not sure that this is the case. The ref given for this (and for the other claim regarding this in the article, which I'd better remove for consistency) sadly has lost its audio, and the text given does not support this usage. Of course I would be delighted to be proven wrong with a good ref but I don't currently believe that it matches the spec. Best wishes DBaK ( talk) 18:15, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
I certainly agree that, having lived in the Middlesbrough area from birth, the name Ironopolis doesn't ring any bells. I've heard of the Ironopolis Club - so it must be based on something - but it is never used now. "Boro" is frequently used, not just to refer to the football team associated with the town, but generally to refer to the town. Francis Hannaway 19:47, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Unfortunately I can't see any reference for the estimation of 2008. Should be added. -- Dionysos1988 ( talk) 23:53, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
This edit, removed due to "political slant", is not acceptable. Perhaps the information could be placed elsewhere and integrated into the article more appropriately, but it is solid information about the subject. The economy section simply does not mention either the decline of industrial production (the article doesn't go into it in detail either but takes it as a given) nor does the fact that about 50% of the people in the town work for some government or government agency with layoffs in progress. User:Fred Bauder Talk 02:26, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
Is the Town's being the main setting for the film The Tournament big enough to gain mention in the Televisions and Filmography section? UFOash ( talk) 22:49, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
Looking at the overall syle of this page - and the same is true of a great many Wiki pages - it seems to dwell on the past. Ee, it were grand in those days! Don't get me wrong, there should be a history section - but should every subject be weighed down by that, or should we be describing a the modern town of Middlesbrough. It tends to have factiods thrown in here and there. It rambles. It's quite long.
Take, for example, the paragraphs about transport. "... a turquoise-liveried fleet, a colour which was not universally popular."' Do we really need to know that people weren't sure about the colour of buses in 1970? What about just stating, as in the first paragraph, that Middlesbrough and the surrounding areas are served by a network of bus routes operated by Ariva and Stagecoach?
I think the page is full of such ramblings and would represent the town more if we cut a bit more back to the wood - especially when it's just people's unreferenced reminiscences of the good old days.
If it's compared with other pages - London, for example, - a good section on history is included ... but after that, only present day aspects are described.
Further to these points, I'ved noticed that three Middlesbroughs are being described:
... please discuss :) Francis Hannaway 11:08, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
It's very clear that that the page Middlesbrough and Middlesbrough Borough Council are talking about the same subject. I'm surprised others have been so quiet about the issue. Both articles are talking about the Unitary Authority of Middlesbrough aka Middlesbrough Borough Council. At least the Middlesbrough Borough Council page doesn't try to claim places in neighbouring Redcar and Cleveland.
So - let's hear your thoughts on the subject. All opinions welcome. Francis Hannaway 16:06, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
I added the tag for ext link cleanup bc there seem to be far too many ext links and many are used in the main text of the article where it would be more appropriate to turn them into inline citations/references. Comatmebro ~Come at me~ 07:08, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
I'm sure that there is enough interest to move the section about the Second World War to a new article. Then it could be expanded upon. As it is, it takes up a lot of space in an already overly long article. Any thoughts? Francis Hannaway 23:34, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
And dump here. NPOV and WP:FORK concern. In ictu oculi ( talk) 05:20, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
Why are "twinning" and "Twin towns" two separate sections? It's tempting to assume that it's a mistake and someone perhaps introduced one without seeing the other already there ... or ... ? DBaK ( talk) 10:08, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
I'm going to be bold and try to sort this out, but please chime in if you can help! The only good ref I can find so far is the Council's own page on the subject, which mentions only Oberhausen. Historyman53 (please see here) has very usefully pointed out that the ref I had for the Dunkirk thing is not reliable - it's a blog, and in fact I wrote to the journalist and he has no better ref beyond that, so I think that's it done as a WP:RS. But actually I think the council's own current page trumps all, so I am going to cut it back to Oberhausen, at least until someone shows up with an RS for anything else. I will de-duplicate the sections at the same time. Best wishes, DBaK ( talk) 13:56, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Someone has helpfully written a paragraph about the climate in Middlesbrough.
I would say that, with it being unreferenced, that it is complete original research and not completely helpful. It states that Middlesbrough has an oceanic climate and then that it has a continental climate. I don't know what's wrong with a good old-fashioned temperate climate. My understanding, and experience, of a continental climate, in Europe, is one of much hotter weather in the summer, but with extremely cold temperatures (-10 C to -20 C) in the winter. Would anyone agree that the excellent temperature and rainfall grid on the page would suffice? ... and that we can delete the paragraph, which, if referenced, would be more at home on a page about a region rather than a town? Francis Hannaway ( talk) 22:26, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
This one's for the muppets who keep changing "town" to "city": http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/9588713.Middlesbrough_misses_out_on_city_status/ Ma®©usBritish{ chat} 12:58, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
The ONS has released new information regarding urban areas, or built-up areas as they are now known, within the UK. The figures refer to the populations of what the ONS have designated as urban areas, regardless of administrative boundaries. In the case of Teesside, the ONS had previously classed Middlesbrough and Eston & Southbank as two separate urban sub-areas. The population of the Middlesbrough urban sub-area of Teesside was 142,921 (which was the entire Borough of Middlesbrough plus the Ormesby ward of Redcar & Cleveland) and Eston & Southbank as 32,600 (the remaining 5 wards of Greater Eston). Now, however, the ONS have classed Middlesbrough and Eston & Southbank as a single urban subdivision of the Teesside built-up area, with a population of 174,700 [8]. Now as far as im concerned this should be the official definition of the town of Middlesbrough and I think it should be included within the article to show Middlesbrough's urban population as 174,900 not 138,400 which is the population of the local authority and doesn't reflect the full extent of the entire built-up area. As this article is about the urban area and not the adminstrative district it should reflect all aspects of the area. With this in mind the areas of Eston and Southbank should feature within the article as they are now officially classed as part of the Middlesbrough area. Hopefully this may give some closure to the argument of what actually is considered Middlesbrough and what isn't, at least in terms of an official government statistics point of view. Acklamite ( talk) 00:00, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
That is correct Marcus, Eston and Southbank do indeed fall within Redcar & Cleveland council, im not disputing that. I am refferring to how the ONS have re-classed the urban area and its population, not the authority/council area which divides up the conurbation. As before, the ONS classed the urban sub-area of Teesside, known as Middlesbrough, to include areas outside of its authority area. Previously this was only limited to the Ormesby area. However, the Nomis website, which is part of the office for national statistics, shows a change in the methodolgy on what constitutes an urban area and re-classed them as built-up areas. The built-up area of Middlesbrough, or to be more specific Middlesbrough BUASD (buit up area subdivision), according to Nomis and the ONS has a total urban population of 174,700. This does not represent either the populations of the Borough of Middlesbrough nor that of Redcar & Cleveland which are completely different entities to the urban area, but is a more accurate way of representing built up areas that may have a natural urban continuity to them. I must stress again the former urban sub-areas or new built up areas are used to determine the population of an urban area and not the population of the authority. As for the legitamcy of the new methodolgy, I do not think it is simply just a data capture of an area made up purely for statistical purposes, but a way the government can be more accurate in defining population centres regardless of boundaries, physical or otherwise. Here is a link to the report published by the ONS about the re-designation of urban areas in the UK; Characteristics of Built-up areas. Also you are correct about the link I included above, I should have known better not to use a generated search as a reference, however as I have not found any other file or document that I could create a link to I had no option. Even if you go to this page, 2011 census, Key Statistics for Built-up Areas in England & Wales, you are still given the same link to the same section on Nomis. I will have to use an indirect method;
This link will take you to the usual resident population key statistics page. To download select built-up areas including subdivisions from the drop down box that says 'choose area type'. Or to use the Wizard Query fucntion; first select All next to built-up up areas including subdivisions (you may have to click the link built-up areas..... to access the locale afterwards) / select North East from the drop down box /s croll down the list and tick box next to Teesside - Middlesbrough BUASD (you can click the little map icon next to it to see the coverage of the built up area if you desire) then click next back at the top of the screen / the next steps are to choose variables and how the table is displayed and so forth, simply make your way through these steps by pressing next once completing / once you come to the end step you have a choice of format then click finish for the result! My apologies for how long winded all this may seem but this seems to be the only way to access this information.
Lastly, I also think that as this has been conducted by the ONS, which is part of the government, that it should be deemed official as it is how the government has the defined the area. Acklamite ( talk) 19:20, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
Hmm those pesky links, I even checked them by logging out then back into wiki and they worked! Oh well nevermind. Thankyou for the suggestion I shall bring it to the attention of editors and it should indeed be a UK wide standard. I was curious to see if any other articles had already introduced this particular data and indeed I discovered both Leeds [9] and York [10] to have included the 2011 Built-up areas figures for the urban population, aswell as showing the figures for their respective districts. Acklamite ( talk) 14:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
I have finally got round to bringing this up within the WikiProject UK geography portal and started a new topic for discussion with the main focus on getting all the current data for 2011 census updated. Currently BUASD's are not being used within any articles for towns and settlements nor are they within articles about conburbations, instead only BUA's are being used which of course refer to the entire conurbation or the population of the actual authority is used. Ive also mentioned that the article List of localities in England by population which uses the 2001 method of urban areas needs a new article created using the current 2011 data as this article is purely used for historical purposes now. "This article is provided for historical interest only, because this sense of 'locality' disappears in the 2011 census and the population data have been recalculated" I also noticed I have made a slight error when referring to the York area above. I said that the York article has already started using the population figure for its BUASD of 153,717. This is incorrect as this figure is for the entire Built up area or conurbation. The sub division of York which is part of the Built up area had a population of 152,841. This is because the York BUA is made up of not only York BUASD, the Earswick BUASD which has a seperate population of 876. I know it is only a small difference but still it was inaccurate. Acklamite ( talk) 11:47, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
Is Teesside Tintin notable enough for this article? We now have "Comic writer Nick Donnelly creator, voiceover and editor of Teesside Tintin" in the notable people section. Edits by Edaward123456 today - I will drop them a talkback message. DBaK ( talk) 12:03, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
Is Longlands a real enough bit of Middlesbrough to be in the list? I RVd an IP as they'd also trashed the list format and didn't seem to get the alpha order, but I'm agnostic on whether it should actually be in the list or not, and don't want to appear bitey - anyone advise please? Thanks and best wishes DBaK ( talk) 12:16, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
I know it is not commonly known outside of Middlesbrough (perhaps not even within Teesside!), but the fact remains that Middlesbrough had/has the second highest proportion of Irish born inhabitants/lineage in England after Liverpool [1] [2] [3] [4]. Not only did it have a large Irish influence but there was also a significant Welsh population making up 3.9% of Middlesbrough's population during the 1871 census. I definitely think it is worth mentioning as it had a big impact on the area such as evident with the Middlesbrough accent. Acklamite ( talk) 18:56, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
He is the architect/artist behind the creation of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_Island
His facebook says he is from middlesbrough https://www.facebook.com/richart.sowa — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.5.128.19 ( talk) 12:35, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
{{geodata-check}}
The following coordinate fixes are needed for Middlesbrough - shows up in Scarborough
— 83.170.111.148 ( talk) 01:19, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
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Middlesbrough (/ˈmɪdəlzbrə/ (About this soundlisten) MID-əlz-brə) is a large post-industrial town[1][2] founded in 1830 and situated on the south bank of the River Tees in the Tees Valley region of North East England.[3] The local council, a unitary authority, is Middlesbrough Borough Council. The 2011 Census recorded the borough's total resident population as 138,400 and the wider urban settlement with a population of 174,700.[4] Middlesbrough is part of the larger built-up area of Teesside which had an overall population of 376,333 at the 2011 Census.[5]
Middlesbrough became a county borough within the North Riding of Yorkshire in 1889. In 1968, the borough was merged with a number of others to form the County Borough of Teesside, which was absorbed in 1974 by the county of Cleveland. In 1996, Cleveland was abolished, and Middlesbrough Borough Council became a unitary authority within the Tees Valley. RGs Erimus ("We shall be" in Latin) was chosen as Middlesbrough's motto in 1830. It recalls Fuimus ("We have been") the motto of the Norman/Scottish Bruce family, who were lords of Cleveland in the Middle Ages. The town's coat of arms is an azure lion, from the arms of the Bruce family, a star, from the arms of Captain James Cook, and two ships, representing shipbuilding and maritime trade.[6] TeesInfo ( talk) 15:42, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
I've removed a paragraph about the local accent, which is unsourced and appears to be made up original research. I've pasted the text below in case any editor wants to find some reliable sources and reinstate it.
Another feature of the Middlesbrough accent is the presence of a harsh "CK" sound. This indicates a possible influence from the many Welsh speakers that inhabited Middlesbrough at the same time as the Irish. Words such as black, track and crack often have an emphasis on the ck which give it a sound of clearing the throat. Not only is this feature prominent in Welsh speakers but it is also present in speakers from Liverpool. This further suggests the similarities between speakers from Middlesbrough and the Liverpool area.
~dom Kaos~ ( talk) 12:43, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
Please note - when adding your Boro-Love anecdotes about how great and beautiful Middlesbrough is, that Wikipedia is not TripAdvisor. Writing should be concise and informative, with statistics and not hearsay. Francis Hannaway ( talk) 17:49, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
This section was very messy, after tidying it up, it appears to be too long + very cumbersome. This section needs to be moved entirely to List of people from Middlesbrough to tidy up. Devokewater ( talk) 13:31, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
Should Middlehaven get its own section in the article:
They is probably a set boundary but A66 is pretty much to the south and Tees to the north. Where did the name come from, probably simply Middle+haven and when did it come to been named as such. Chocolateediter ( talk) 02:17, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
I need to know when the name came into use since it has exist atleast since 2007 but I cannot back date it any further.
Iron and steel works in what is now Middlehaven is a good section to build up. (Surely some wiki-articles exist to get overviews and references to these, I have a map reference to form a list to look up)
The stadium and transporter bridge (even Newport bridge making the whole bridges section go to Middlehaven) can all move over.
Development sources are easy enough to find. I’ll start making it tomorrow if I feel like it, at most, the whole Middlehaven section will definitely be done in a week.
For starters I’ll put summit on the lines of: “Middlehaven is waterfront of Middlesbrough. It hosts the old town centre and most of the settlement’s industry.” Chocolateediter ( talk) 18:23, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
Done Chocolateediter ( talk) 16:52, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
There is a discussion at talk:Milton Keynes#"Large" town that may be of interest to editors of this article (since it also uses the phrase "large town"). -- John Maynard Friedman ( talk) 10:52, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
Middlesbrough is a large town. Larger than any town in Teesside but they maintain large in their leads. RailwayJG ( talk) 14:06, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
There are four different population figures, the correct figures need to be agreed. Devoke water 08:14, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
Have tweaked the wording slightly + removed unsourced reference to Teeside. Devoke water 23:09, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
I have again removed reference to the urban subdivision of Middlesbrough as per this discussion Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_localities_in_England_by_population they aren't settlements. Anyway Middlesbrough is part of the urban area known as Teesside so we should be using the figure for that when discussing Middlesbrough's wider urban area population even if some of it isnt in the same district. Eopsid ( talk) 21:55, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
We are now back to four different population figures again.
Devoke
water
21:20, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
Just noticed that their are four different population figures, again:
- Main article says: In 2019, the population of the town itself was estimated to be 177,354
- Whilist the infobox: 174,700 (2011 Census)
Regards Devoke water 20:21, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Can we have some agreement on what to include. Some editors want to quote 140k, others 170k + others want to include the entire Teeside population. The sources also vary with some quoting the 2011 census + others quoting 2019 estimates for the same figures! Regards Devoke water 18:00, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
The built-up area represents the wider area around a place, for example a city and any linked towns and villages. Sub-divisions provide greater detail in the data, by identifying the neighbouring settlements and localities within the larger conurbations.Koncorde ( talk) 11:33, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
The built-up area represents the wider area around a place, for example a city and any linked towns and villages. Sub-divisions provide greater detail in the data, by identifying the neighbouring settlements and localities within the larger conurbations.There is nothing about that second sentence that precludes a BUASD being a town or series of settlements as being their own thing within the "larger conurbation" - however the interpretation is that in some cases the BUASD and those sub-data areas do reflect an "Urban Area" (because they conform to historic definition & boundaries) and in other cases do not (because they don't conform to the historic definition & boundaries). Middlesbrough falls into the second camp. Koncorde ( talk) 19:44, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
I've changed the population figure yet again. The population in the infobox should be the smallest one for Middlesbrough. There are other tags in those infoboxes for urban population and stuff like that. Eopsid ( talk) 21:03, 3 June 2021 (UTC) Probably have to change the whole info box to a settlement one rather than UK place. Might do tomorrow. Eopsid ( talk) 21:15, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Why, has the article been split into two, one for the Borough of Middlesbrough and this one Middlesbrough? I dont think it warrants two articles. All the information in the new article is covered by this one and Middlesbrough Council Eopsid ( talk) 20:04, 17 February 2021 (UTC) I suggest they be merged together again. Eopsid ( talk) 20:19, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
Hi Crouch, Swale thank you for your input. If your satisfied with the two being able to be seperate and kept as are. I had no problem with Darlington and Stockton now. But what of Hartlepool? Is that worthy of a borough page like Middlesbrough? But at least we can keep the article for middlesbrough and the borough of middlesbrough as it does exist as you stated. Looks like York has already been merged into one. RailwayJG ( talk) 21:09, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
Well I'm glad we can keep them separate as no point getting rid of the borough page when it actually exists. And covers some areas as mentioned. I'm happy to see it can be kept so thanks anyway for your input. RailwayJG ( talk) 21:35, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
Crouch, Swale should we call an agreement to this debate of it being able to be kept? RailwayJG ( talk) 21:38, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
The fact is a borough exists I'm Middlesbrough. It is worth having a separate page as it will give the borough more exposure then a simple section on the town article. And wards and political makeup are then the focus of the page then the town one. Makes it easier and if Crouch is happy they can be separate then let's all agree and put this to bed. Borough is of you check out the page and references mentioned on BBC news and Teesidelive RailwayJG ( talk) 21:44, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
Seems pointless when you've already had two other people input on it. But fine. It's just not gonna change the fact the borough exists whether we want to pretend it does or not. RailwayJG ( talk) 21:45, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
This Wikipedia:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about districts has 6 criteria to decide whether we should have multiple articles for borough and town. The borough doesn't satisfy any of the criteria except 4 although thats because middlesbrough has a weird local government history with it being part of the last new county borough, County Borough of Teesside. Eopsid ( talk) 20:34, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
The Tees area has definitely been somewhat of a test area for government. Teesside being the first river+side county in any sense then abolished just as the others came along and has the first “metro mayor” as Tees Valley. Wish south Tees went back to Yorkshire fully politically and statistically hopefully now those regions are fading. Chocolateediter ( talk) 22:20, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
Although I dont agree there doesnt seem to be any consensus to merge so I'm going to remove the merge notice. Eopsid ( talk) 10:57, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
The below is from WP:UKDISTRICTS, Middlesbrough passes every one of these except how old the boundaries are. Which is a weird quirk because middlesbrough's current boundaries are smaller than the district it was in 1974.
Single articles are generally created where the settlement/district matches most of the following criteria: 1. The built-up area closely matches the boundaries of the district with no rural hinterland 2. There is a lack of other distinct settlements in the district 3. The ONS population for the settlement is roughly the same, or larger than the district 4. The current boundaries of the district are long-established and predate reforms in 1974 5. There are very few or preferably no civil parishes in the district 6. The district does not cover a geographically large area
Eopsid ( talk) 18:13, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
In 1968 Middlesbrough became part of the County Borough of Teesside, and in 1974 it became part of the non-metropolitan county of Cleveland until the county's abolition in 1996, when Middlesbrough became a unitary authority of North Yorkshire.while the BUA map is unclear if this is the "town" or not but given that the BUA includes distinct historic "settlements" [13] like Eston that fall under other districts (presumably our Redcar and Cleveland article is also counting Eston and others in its figures based on this logic)?
The borough exists where editors agree or disagree. There are no notable settlements in Hartlepool Stockton or Darlington but they have borough pages. There was already debates and it was agreed to be kept. Reopening an old debate already agreed on is pointless. It passes wiki standards and is reliable. Those against it think Middlesbrough is only a town with a borough. Yet another town is Slough but it has a borough page RailwayJG ( talk) 20:08, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
That was already disputed as you know Eopsid and you asked on nearly two different pages for census and they agreed to keep the borough. You suggested merging and it was decided to be kept. RailwayJG ( talk) 21:56, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
And what distinct settlements does Hartlepool contain other than possibly Seaton Carew? RailwayJG ( talk) 21:56, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
From what I can see on maps Hartlepool is the same as Middlesbrough. Stuck with one small village and two suburbs. Other settlements are either in county Durham itself outside the so called borough or in Stockton Borough. So I heavily disagree with notable settlements for Hartlepool. RailwayJG ( talk) 21:58, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
I'd merge Hartlepool and it's borough as it's smaller then Middlesbrough and has no distinct settlements. Find me a reliable source to clarify distinct settlements for the others which apparently Middlesbrough lacks. RailwayJG ( talk) 22:00, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
Again the debate was had and the census was to keep the borough page so reopening the debate to merge it is pointless. I've tried changing the population but the it won't let me on a pc or mobile RailwayJG ( talk) 16:21, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
It used to say that Cook was born in Mbro. I can't see that this was correct as he was born in Marton at a time when Mbro hardly existed, so it sounds weird to say he was born there - no-one at the time would have seen it that way. I have corrected it with slightly clunky wording - feel free to tidy up. Nevilley 15:52, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
I don't think Ridley Scott and Tony Scott are "from Middlesbrough". I think they spent some time in Teesside, but in Stockton rather then Middlesbrough? They seem to have moved around an awful lot. -- Amortize 16:15, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I have added a good deal to this entry,and eliminated the Scotts. Ridley was born in South Shields. I found a vandalism inserted by someone with a hatred of Newcastle. I am editing a number of sites, so am just inserting the material for the moment and will be back to finish the job properly.
Emmet 15.10 11 June 2005 I've done the best I can to tidy up.I think it reads well
Emmet 15.08 12 June 2005
Why include the 'crap towns' allusion? This was a poorly researched publication, meant as entertainment. Why use that to run Middlesbrough down? I wonder if the other 49 towns have mentioned their inclusion. I think not. It's not very encyclopaedic anyway, so I suggest it be omitted.
Emmet 20.12 11 July 2005
Ditto on your observations over the 'Crap Towns' remark. That said, I personally don't have too many objections to its inclusion, despite being something of a Middlesbrough proponent. It is inserted in humoured spirit, and the comment in question is both well-mannered and sympathetic ("misfortune") etc. So, no strictly NPOV but true, nor is it to be deemed as generic encyclopedia fare either.
20 Dec 2005
I'm a UoT graduate and I seem to remember the VR center being finished? See: VR Centre mini-site
The town and borough are the same place, jimfbleak 17:07, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
The people of Eston and Normanby where/are fiercely independent of Middlesbrough and on several occasions fought the Councils of Middlesbrough through Parliment. The area of Eston and Normanby was run by The Eston Urban District Council.
Eston and Normanby have existed long before Middlesbrough, yes they are seperate Towns tow Middlesbrough and have never been in an actual BOROUGH of Middlesbrough, as in to say, Eston District wasn't under the Authority of Middlesbrough council, but the whole Eston Urban District was under the Local government and parliamentary control (for the use of elections) of the Middlesbrough Urban Sanitary District. South bank, Teessville and the younger generations of people from Grangetown are more likely to Say they are from Middlesbrough. Grangetown & Southbank were built sometime in the 1880's, the land it was built on was bought by the owners of Middlesbrough, was served by Middlesbrough transport authority and used Water supplied by Middlesbrough. Funny how Eston always protested against merging officially within the Borough of Middlesbrough yet it was merged with Langbaurgh with no hassle!!! Check out these web sites
Also regarding the current population of Middlesbrough. If the Town of Middlesbrough has 135,000, how on earth can the whole Borough amount to 140,000? There is around 12,000 in Coulby Newham alone, plus the populations of Stainton, Thornton, Hemlington and Nunthorpe!!
A continuous stretch of urbanisation in itself can be regarded as a town, as towns do not neccessarily need to be a sub-set of any particular Borough or area of local government, that is they form a continous area of housing or industry without any definate or visible boundaries between the subsequent administrative districts. So in every way exept for local government, Eston is part of Middlesbrough Town.
I'm sorry about using this Talk page to ask a question for my own personal research purposes; but (1) this seems a likely place to get a good answer, and (2) perhaps the answer is something about which a Wikipedia article should be written.
Basically, I am trying to remember the name of a town or village, as well as the names of two specific features within that locale. (Sorry about town/village; although I've lived in England and look forward to returning, I'm from the U.S., where, at least idiomatically, such terms as city and town are used much less restrictively.)
In July 1997, on a coach day-trip from Darlington to Whitby, my girlfriend and I stopped in a little place on the way to Whitby. I keep thinking that it was called Middlesbrough, but maybe I'm wrong. Or maybe we took a small van to Middlesbrough, then boarded a coach there, and then stopped in yet another place, to get out and spend some time, before the tour resumed the journey to Whitby.
Anyway, the place I'm thinking of struck me as relatively small—though perhaps we were simply in a small-seeming area, or suburb, of a larger place. I don't remember any buildings of more than two or three storeys. The first stop was at what I would call a ruin. It was a stone house, possibly roofless in some places, that seems, in my memory, to be from the Middle Ages. In one large room, with large, glassless windows, the floor (dirt, possibly covered with gravel of very small pebbles) was wet either from the lack of a roof or from leaks in the roof. Within some minutes' walk of this old house, which may, in fact, have been called a castle, there was a lively market square.
In case it helps in terms of market days: we were there on Friday 4, or possibly Saturday 5, July 1997.
I'd be really grateful if anyone could help me figure out the name of the locale as well as the 'ruin'. (I do know some part of the ruin had a roof, because I remember being in a dark alcove of a window and taking a silhouette picture of my girlfriend's profile against the light coming in through the window; this was in a room whose floor may have been perhaps a meter below ground.) I could show a photo taken in the aforementioned wet-floored room if it would help someone help me identify the place.
Thanks again, and sorry about putting a personal question here. Still, once I find out the name of this place, I wouldn't mind researching and then creating a Wikipedia article on it.
Again, I'd like to know the name of the locale, the name of the old house, and the name of the market square. Thanks! President Lethe 18:18, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
The route to Whitby would go through Guisborough, where there is a ruin ( Priory ) and a popular market. To go to Whitby via Helmsley doesnt make sense because you wuld have to back over the moors, you would go to Scarborough via Helmsley.
I have removed an incorrect statement regarding the comparison of the size of the towns.
Measured by Urban sub-area as defined by the Office for National Statistics (which is based upon the pre-1974 local authorities):
This shows that Middlesbrough is the largest town in North Yorkshire and in Teeside, but is the smallest of the three major towns in the north east. Steven J 23:57, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I apologise for the statement, i was referring to the actual land area as oppose to population, my mistake.
Tsider 19:53, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
This is referring to the population of Middlesbrough Town. According to the most recent article, Middlesbrough has a population of 142,691. How on earth can this be true? The population of the whole borough is just over 147,000!! So how can the Town be 142,000 and the borough have 147,000 when Nunthorpe has 4,620, Marton has over 9,990 and Coulby Newham has over 12,000 people? That isnt even including Stainton, Thornton and Hemlington which are seperate settlements from Middlesbrough Town!!! If Middlesbrough Town had a population of 142,000, then from the population of Nunthorpe, Marton and Coulby, the whole borough would be around 157,000, even without the settlements of Stainton, Thornton and Hemlington added!!!!!
Hmm, still doesnt make sense. I agree with Towns not ahving to be within a certain administrative area and can indeed cross over into 2 seperate ones which is apparent in the case of Middlesbrough/Eston area. The Info from the Key Statistics given by ONS, gives each of the main Towns of Teesside as oppose to the collective district each belong to. So it is still apparent that the Town of Middlesbrough has 142, 691. Fair enough but then the Borough of Middlesbrough would have nearly 200,000? Here are some figures which Ive gathered from various sources such as Tees Valley Statistics and local council websites:
Middlesbrough Town = 142,691 (mid 2005). Stainton & Thornton = 3,500. Hemlington = 4,000. Coulby Newham = 11,600. Marton = 9,990. Nunthorpe = 4,620.
From these figures it would mean that The Borough of Middlesbrough has a population of over 176,401??? This is obviousely wrong. Maybe the ONS have counted the Town of Middlesbrough as the whole Borough!!. So with that figi=ure in mind, and the addition of Eston (which is part of the Middlesbrough Urban Area), Middlesbrough has over 209,189!!! hmmm, cud anyone divulge any info on ow this can be? tsider 22:32, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I have removed this derogatory term as it no longer has any relevance to Middlesbrough. The air is much cleaner nowadays and has been known to be cleaner than most large Urban areas such as Birmingham and Manchester. It has been known as the "Armpit of England" not so much for its pollution but more its industrial landscape. It has also be noted as the skid mark on Britains underwear but I do not agree both are worth noting. No matter what people say about Middlesbrough, it was one of the most important industrial Towns and greatly helped in shaping Britain tsider 1:00, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Well - I would have to disagree with dj_paul. This is an encyclopaedia, and therefore should include even "derogatory" terms, because it is a piece of information about Middlesbrough which people would like to hear. Ciao.
I really disagree with the inclusion of the "Armpit Of England" section of this article. As this is an encyclopedia it should be based on fact and not opinion. The development of middlesbrough compared to urban cities like liverpool and manchester has been slower but as Middlesbrough doesn't have city status and is a much younger town in comparison I think this is to be expected. Supposedly being called the "Armpit Of England" (being from Middlesbrough I have heard this term used for many towns in england) I think has no educational weight. For this reason I have excluded this section. Dangerhertz 15:55 8 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm with Dangerhertz, opinion should be avoided unless it can be cited from a reasonable source... even if it a fairly accurate description. I hate it here.
86.30.14.139 (
talk)
11:36, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
In response: 1) It says "Urban Centres", not "Urban Cities" 2) Whilst Middlesbrough may be smaller and "younger," the dockyard work brough a huge number of immigrants to areas such as Middlesbrough, Liverpool and Manchester. As such, they are comparable as industrial sites. The fact that Middlesbrough is smaller could be a sign of its failure, especially given the present circumstances. Whilst Manchester and Liverpool have regenerated successfully, it seems that Middlesbrough is having problems which one art gallery and putting slippery tiles in the town centre will not solve. 3) I too am from Middlesbrough. 4) The fact that this term has been used for many towns in England does not mean that it should not be used about Middlesbrough 5) This is not merely an opinion. As you yourself have admitted, this phrase is used about Middlesbrough, therefore has a right of place in an encyclopaedia. 6) What exactly do you mean by "educational weight"? To me, this means nothing.
--Pjmc 18:56, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
What I meant by educational weight was, this term "Armpit of England" is not exclusive to Middlesbrough and isn't an accurate description of this one town it's also not representative of mass opinion regarding middlesbrough, Therefore it's not giving anyone wishing to learn about middlesbrough any real knowledge of the town itself. The section on crime doesn't show middlesbrough in a good light BUT it is based on facts and figures whereas the "Armpit of England" section is pure opinion and therefore I dont think should be included. Whatever it is you think of regarding the efforts of Middlesbrough Council to regenerate middlesbrough is fine and in some senses I agree that we could be doing a lot better but I think it's upto wikipedia as a whole to give the facts on a subject thus leaving people to garner there own opinions and not sway peoples opinion on certain subjects
-- Dangerhertz 15:55 8 April 2006 (UTC)
I think you have a very perverted sense of what a "fact" is. I think you will find that it is FACT that Middlesbrough has been called "the armpit of england" and therefore, by your own acknowledgment, has a right to be entered in the section on Middlesbrough. As I said before, this is no longer stated as personal opinion, but as merely a fact. --Pjmc 13:47, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Is this there anywhere that you can find that Middlesbrough has been officially named as "Armpit of England" or is there a survey that you can produce that proves that the popular opinion of the people is that middlesbrough is in fact "Armpit of England" if so then I agree wholeheartedly that it should be included. But as we have already established this term is used for many different towns. Does this mean we should put it on every article of any town that has ever been described "Armpit of England"?
--Dangerhertz 15:55 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Even if only in the name of hazy affirmation, I do feel a considerable urge to back up dj_paul on this matter. Statements being made are indeed fact; albeit by the vagary of what they are, having little correlation with the level of infatuation of that which is said - clearly, in this case, particularly high, when not even a statistic or survey result, in themselves rather spurious and subjective in nature, is even inserted. On moral grounds alone, irrespective of the presence or otherwise of a system-wide 'NPOV' agenda no town featured on Wikipedia anywhere in the world warrants a section headlined "Armpit of Britain" or anything remotely resembling it. Hence, a clean and just victory for staple common sense here. - MRacer
Just regarding the neighbourhoods. Some of thhose in the list arent neighbourhoods as such but are whole Villages or nowadays the Electoral wards based on the old Village parishes. The neighbourhoods are within these and are much smaller. Whinneybanks, Tollesby, Saltersgill and Berwick Hills are neighbourhoods whereas Acklam, Grove Hill and North Ormesby are the respective wards. Also if Nunthorpe and Ormesby are included in the list, surely Grangetown and Southbank should be included, after all they are far more closley related to Middlesbrough than Redcar even if they are not under Middlesbrough Council! tsider 24:51, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
The statement "Six Bend Trap is the first ever feature film made in the Middlesbrough area" is out-dated and not true. There have been other feature films made in Middlesbrough, including Bacon-Based Bastards, Sub Zero and Gangsters In Love. There is some truth in the statement however. Six Blend Trap is the first feature film to be shot in the area using HD-TV cameras. -- Joe 01:56, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Norf n Lights are an entertainer in the city. Fine, they can be listed with the other entertainers, but the extra section on them alone is inappropriate. Two entries in the External Links is probably overkill as well, but I'm on the fence of that one. I suggest removing the Norf n Lights section. (I'd have done it myself if Firefox didn't cut short on long pages.)
--
BakerQ
00:24, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
They seem to be a sufficiently obscure outfit to me so as to be deservedly omitted completely, as is precisely what I have initiated. Such dubious bandying of promotive blurb as this, I wouldn't deem unfamiliar: the Saltburn article was at one point similarly plagued. But we're Wikipedians, so I'm sure we aptly can 'police' the situation... -- MRacer 15:43, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I have posted a question at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_UK_subdivisions regarding the present split between the articles Middlesbrough and Middlesbrough (borough) and invite comments. I note that the articles are mutually contradictory, in that Middlesbrough claims that it is larger than Middlesbrough (borough), but Middlesbrough (borough) identifies places outside Middlesbrough that are in the borough; but these places are places that Middlesbrough claim are in Middlesbrough. Please leave general comments there. Morwen - Talk 23:07, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I've looked at their website for a source for this 180,000 figure, and can't find it. [5] shows their population figures, which are all entirely based on local authority and ward boundaries. I cannot find any attempt at them identifying a Greater Middlesbrough area. Morwen - Talk 09:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I have had trouble locating the exact file on the interent. It was a pdf that I found through google. It was a document from the Tees Valley Joint Strategy Unit but I did not access the file through the website itself. It may be best to remove the statement or change it to be viewed form a local rather than offical point of view until I can relocate this file. Being a local lad, any other references to the Urban area is purely a local matter and recognised by the locality. It is simply based on the fact that Middlesbrough/Eston is bordered by the Tees, A19, North Yorkshire and the ICI Wilton site so it becomes one Urban entity (although part of Teesside aswell) tsider 00:55, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi. Yes it was me who made the edits and after looking back on the previous , it sounds like the rantings of a madman. It is a touchy subject from where im from and something that I feel strongly about. In the edits it is apparent that I have sacrificed fact for local knowledge and opinion. As wikipedia is an encylopeadia its a meant for factual topics based on real factual evidence rather than opinon. As I am a local lad brought up in Eston, I have gone into each edit ignorantly believing that what is local knowledge on Teesside is also common to the rest of the UK. As I and most of Middlesbrough believe, Eston & Southbank is Middlesbrough but I now realise that this is not hard fact and there are no real statistics for this and the only official definition for Middlesbrough is based on the local authority. I was wondering if it would be appropriate to add info about what is perceived locally as middlesbrough, with the inclusion of what officially entails as Middlesbrough. BTW the 182,000 was not a Tees Valley Joint Strategy Unit stat but an informal way used by them to establish projects on Teesside based on the Middlesbrough PCT area (Middlesbrough & Eston). Sorry for any inconvenince as Im not an experience Wikipedian butI am very enthusiastic about my locality. In future I wil stick to facts and figures. tsider 19:36, 30th October 2006 (UTC)
Cheeky B******! Maybe people living in central Boro cannot afford it but people living in the suburban areas (who traditional are the better off ones anyway) can! Just look at the house prices in Yarm, Marton, Nunthorpe, Acklam! Love the way no-one can delet it aswell, Sly! 00:39 11, September 2006 (UTC)
Who is Paul Emmett? I've removed him from the list of notable musicians because he doesn't seem to be famous. Epimorph 12:51, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone offer any information regarding the Middlesbrough registration district from 1901. I happened to come across a site which offers census data from 1901 and was curious about the Middlesbrough area. Now I know there is always controversy and split opinion when it comes to the "Southbank & Eston being part of Middlesbrough" arguement, but when I looked into the census data for Southbank, Ormesby and Eston they refer themselves to being within the Registration district of Middlesbrough as sub-districts of Middlesbrough and was also part of its parliamentary borough. What were these districts used for and do they constitute the said areas being a part of Middlesbrough in any form?
This is the site from which I found the data:
http://www.1901censusonline.com/results.asp?wci=locale_results&px=1&searchwci=locale_search —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.11.18.231 ( talk) 15:32, 4 March 2007 (UTC).
I think that it would be helpful for non-Britons if a pronuciation guide, using the phonetic alphabet, was included. I can't do any better than "middles-bru", where the u is as in cup. That's clearly not good enough. Dancarney 14:24, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Its more like Middles-bra
I have added the received pronunciation version, though the local pronunciation is probably different. Falconer 21:45, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Although the fact is probably true about it being voted tenth 'crappiest' town in the UK, should this really be on the middlesbrough wiki page? When I saw Bath appear above Middlesrbough on the list (along with some others), I realised that this list must have been made by picking town names out of a hat. Are there no better gradings of towns around? If not, then I think this should just be removed. It's a joke, wich makes me naturally question the rest of what I read on the page. Ben 01:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)Cr
I think you'll find, actually, that there is nothing 'factual' about either opposing assertion; ie. that Middlesbrough is even in the remotest sense, a 'crap' town or an utter urban utopia... MRacer 23:29, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Its part of the reputation of the place, see also
[6] where 'Boro has found a place into the top ten worst towns to live for the 3rd sucessive year, this year wining the 'honor' (07)--
GazMan7
12:17, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
In the first paragraph I wrote that Middlesbrough was the first town in the world to owe its exitsence to a railway. I think that this is important enough to have a prominent mentiom. Although the name is much older than this, as the article makes clear, the urban settlement would not have started without the S&D extension. (The Pease family of course wore the initial financial backers of the S&D). Sasha 19:14, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Why has the population of the Urban area been change to match the District population? Surely that population has been stated within the Borough of Middlesbrough article has it not? The population of Middlesbrough Urban area as defined by the ONS is 142,691, which is the appropriate figure to include in the Town article. Most of the articles on Wikipedia, when describing Towns, use the Urban sub-area figure from the ONS for the population so why not for Middlesbrough? I have changed the population accordingly | statistics for Urban sub-areas Tsider 22:50, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Now I agree that the majority of Redcar & Cleveland, possibly even the council itself, would count the areas above as Middlesbrough (based on them having a Middlesbrough address rather than being located in that particular district) but they are not officially part of Middlesbrough, which I believe they should.
I too agree with the Grangetown, Southbank, Eston and Lazenby areas of Redcar & Cleveland being part of Middlesbrough, regrdless of its council and local administration, as it forms part of the same continuous urban area, not to mention them all having a Middlesbrough postal address instead of a Redcar one. It seems apparent that the addresses given to where people live and establishments are do not reflect the council area they are within, so why should being within one council area mean you are not part of another Town? Anyway, locally, the area is seen as Middlesbrough, but apparently the government know better and the office for National statistics decided that those areas are part of a seperate urban-sub area, even though they have a Middlesbrough Postal address AND are linked directly by sprawl.
Also another thing, the popualtion of the actual Middlesbrough Urban sub-area is 142,691 not 199,000... If the whole of the Middlesbrough area is counted as one single urban-sub are like it should be then it still only amounts to around 180,000. For this I have taken the liberty to change the population back ( although 180,000 would be more appropriate in my view as a local!) Tsider 22:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, I'm from Teesside and I'm not sure that I would could Redcar as part of Middlesbrough any more than I would Stockton, Billingham or Hartlepool. It is sufficiently different not to be counted, but it should be mentioned as an adjacent town. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.104.164.93 ( talk) 23:23, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
In the articles for Grangetown, Southbank, Eston, Teesville, Normanby and Ormesby I have made changes to parts which say the above areas are part of a Middlesbrough 'conurbation' and replaced it with 'Agglomeration' as conurbation gives the impression it forms a much larger area than it really does. Tsider 12:31, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Just a question... why do some editors seem to have such an aversion to providing links to specific dates in an article, and proceed to actually remove them? We are, after all, constructing an encyclopedia here, resplendent with, and better thanks to (or so I thought), as many relevant and interesting links as possible. Might somebody not wish to click on them in order to gain a wider, world view of events contemporary to a particular date? It's hardly as if there aren't plenty of them, after all! Isn't it more of a headache, that editors removing links to dates are therefore making them too indistinct in the article? Or is all this palaver over having them (or otherwise) simply some result of a broader Wikipedia policy of which I am unaware and which I have to say, if anything, I hardly like the sound, or understand the logic, of?
Do clarify, if there are any objectors to me finally adding linked dates back into the article, please. MRacer ( talk) 20:32, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Oh, and while I'm here, just a response to the cheeky remark made by an anonymous editor (who would therefore presumably lend himself to not being easily 'chased up') under the 'History' tab. Of course that particular Odean Cinema is based in Middlesbrough, and at no point did I ever suggest that it was based in the "Dales". Or in Leeds. Or in London. Which correctly makes it 'Middlesbrough-based'. 'Base' on its own simply means foundation, where it is. It doesn't imply that the Cinema (aside from the perfectly legitimate idea that Middlesbrough is hardly the only location on the planet with an outpost of the Odean Cinema 'chain') ever physically travels anywhere, because cinemas, of course, don't. That does go without saying in my world at least, anyway. :D MRacer ( talk) 13:26, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Could the high crime rate be partly due to the use of cameras and zero tolerence policy leading to more incidents being recorded? -- Another berean ( talk) 14:51, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
No, just because incidents are observed it doesnt necessarily mean they will be recorded by the police, neither does it mean they will be attended. For example, on Friday evenings when traditionally things "Kick Off" the police are too understaffed to go to all incidents so its quite common that the footage will be recorded and viewed by police later, but if the victim or witnesses dont come forward to report the incident its not recorded.
Crime is underreported across Great Britain which is why some people say the British Crime Survey tells a more accurate picture. It suggests that certain crimes are underreported by as much as 50%, 90% when you include low volume offences such as Homophobic and Racially aggravated offences.
Middlesbroughs current rate of crime at 170 per 1,000 is below what it was in 2002-03 at 209 per 1,000 but the England average is only 100. The Met Police has reduced even more significantly from 150 in 2002-03 to 105 in 2007 although certain individual boroughs remain high (Camden, Islington, Westminster, Hackney... all over 150).
Crime rates are falling nationally with strict government targets which expected 15% reductions in every part of the country between 2004-05 and 2006-07. For several years before this crime rates changed little in most of the high crime areas although this last 3 years have reduced significantly to meet the targets - Essentially in my opinion the targets set by the government have meant police are becoming more intelligent in the way they count/record crime, massaging the statistics to meet these targets which are profitable. Damn lies and statistics.
One thing that cannot be hidden though is the rise in that same period of street robbery and serious violent crime, although the numbers here are too low to impact on overall statistics so they are not "important" as they cant hinder the chance of meeting targets. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.254.162 ( talk) 18:23, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
There has to be some mention in the industrial section that the place was once thick with smog. The fans of the football club are called smoggies and there are songs about taking gas masks to the city for this very reason. The place is still not the cleanest air in Britain, and it used to be disgusting —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.68.223.212 ( talk) 15:20, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
No worst than any other industrial area (South Wales, East London), Cambridge has more air pollution than Middlesbrough! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.254.162 ( talk) 17:59, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Actually, an Evening Gazette news article reported, possibly around two years ago now, that Middlesbrough's air is actually now cleaner than that breathed by the Queen (ie. in the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea). I'm not sure what the implications subsequently were for Middlesbrough's national 'ranking', but it would almost certainly be worth finding the relevant link, were we to introduce such a section to the article. MRacer ( talk) 13:36, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Who are the top football teams in town other than the Premier League club? Kenallen ( talk) 23:15, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
There are no notable examples which haven't already been mentioned in individual suburb articles (like Marton FC). MRacer ( talk) 10:31, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
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I've added him back into the sports people list. I am not sure I can agree with the other editor that he is not notable: the fact that there's no wp article on him now is not the same thing. It is not correct that there is no evidence of notability and that he is not Googleable: see for example this, this and this. Thanks and best wishes DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered ( talk) 20:29, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
I have altered the opening paragraph on Middlesbrough to reflect the fact that Middlesbrough is not part of the County of North Yorkshire. Olive66 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Olive66 ( talk • contribs) 21:32, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
I reverted this recent edit which changed "town" to "city". City status in the United Kingdom makes it clear that Middlesbrough is not currently a city. The attempt from 88.108.45.197 to change that latter article too was not supported by any reference and has already been reverted by another editor. I'd suggest that this needs discussing here before any further change is made: a change to "city" will not stick without verifiable evidence to support it. Thanks and best wishes DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered ( talk) 14:33, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Someone at an IP addr. posted an entry to the effect that Mbro was twinned with Pyongyang in 1966. I removed it.
OK, the North Koreans did play at Ayresome Park in 1966 during the world cup. And maybe the respective mayors (it was a largely ceremonial post back then) did exchange flags or whatever. But can anyone document this? Djdaedalus ( talk) 13:27, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
At the same time as the above I restored Middlesborough, KY which I had previously removed, and gave a reference for the LGA list which contains it. However I do feel that the date of 1890 for a twinning is very unlikely but again maybe a reference can be found? cheers DBaK ( talk) 09:59, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
At the risk of making everyone even more disillusioned, bitter and knackered than they already are, I'd just like to point out MIMA and mima are used inconsistently in the article. Myself I'd prefer MIMA on the grounds that it is an acronym and I see no reason to cater to officials with an e.e.cummings fetish. As a comparison, the company AT&T is widely known by that acronym even though the modern logo is lowercase throughout. Djdaedalus ( talk) 19:29, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Are these recent Club Bongo edits serious? Djdaedalus clearly thinks not and I reverted the next editor to add it mostly on that ground, but I don't really know and I see there is something there called that. Can someone clarify please? I don't want to risk leaving vandalism or to discourage legit editors so I'd be very grateful for more information. DBaK ( talk) 20:06, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
I've snapped a few photos of the new " Boro Eye" attraction if someone wants to add one - and ideally some information - to the article. They were taken on an iPhone, so don't expect exceptional quality - more than good enough for a Wikipedia article, though. Recommended size is 320x480, so that or smaller as a thumbnail would be fine. Media:Boroeye_dusk.jpg | Media:Boroeye_dusk_close.jpg | Media:Boroeye_night1.jpg | Media:Boroeye_night2.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by Obsiburr ( talk • contribs) 21:21, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Middlesbrough/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
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Last edited at 15:17, 20 January 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 15:23, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
Shouldn't Rob Smedley be in the notables list? Anyone with a Wikipedia entry would seem to be qualified. -- Kcrossle ( talk) 23:03, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
It's the old argument about whether a separately listed suburb also counts as part of the town, or whether it need to always be traeted as a place apart. Yes, everyone knows that Normanby is in Redcar and Cleveland, but it is, de facto, a part of Middlesbrough. Perhaps Middlesbrough could be seen as including Nunthorpe and Eston, perhaps even Lazenby - after that there is a wilderness until you come to habitations that could be said to belong to Redcar.
Looking from the other direction - what about people who belong to Linthorpe? Are they from Middlesbrough? Is that a separate place? (I love it when Linthorpe people get onto the bus and say "The Village" and the Redcar driver says, "Which village?" ... sorry that's unrelated really). -- Francis Hannaway Francis Hannaway 19:49, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
I have no knowledge of, nor can find any reference to, places in Middlesbrough called Town East or Town West. Town Farm - yes, I know that exists. But where are those other two? Francis Hannaway 14:11, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Hi. I made two changes to this article's infobox data and wanted to check that others thought them OK. Or, er, not. Firstly I reverted a change made very recently when an editor changed the town's name to all caps. The infobox documentation doesn't mention all caps but Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(capital_letters)#All_caps doesn't suggest this usage and general usage elsewhere would not seem to support this change. The other change I made was to remove the nickname "Ironopolis". The template documentation at Template:Infobox_settlement#Images, Nickname, Motto says "well-known nickname(s)" and I am not sure that this is the case. The ref given for this (and for the other claim regarding this in the article, which I'd better remove for consistency) sadly has lost its audio, and the text given does not support this usage. Of course I would be delighted to be proven wrong with a good ref but I don't currently believe that it matches the spec. Best wishes DBaK ( talk) 18:15, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
I certainly agree that, having lived in the Middlesbrough area from birth, the name Ironopolis doesn't ring any bells. I've heard of the Ironopolis Club - so it must be based on something - but it is never used now. "Boro" is frequently used, not just to refer to the football team associated with the town, but generally to refer to the town. Francis Hannaway 19:47, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Unfortunately I can't see any reference for the estimation of 2008. Should be added. -- Dionysos1988 ( talk) 23:53, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
This edit, removed due to "political slant", is not acceptable. Perhaps the information could be placed elsewhere and integrated into the article more appropriately, but it is solid information about the subject. The economy section simply does not mention either the decline of industrial production (the article doesn't go into it in detail either but takes it as a given) nor does the fact that about 50% of the people in the town work for some government or government agency with layoffs in progress. User:Fred Bauder Talk 02:26, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
Is the Town's being the main setting for the film The Tournament big enough to gain mention in the Televisions and Filmography section? UFOash ( talk) 22:49, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
Looking at the overall syle of this page - and the same is true of a great many Wiki pages - it seems to dwell on the past. Ee, it were grand in those days! Don't get me wrong, there should be a history section - but should every subject be weighed down by that, or should we be describing a the modern town of Middlesbrough. It tends to have factiods thrown in here and there. It rambles. It's quite long.
Take, for example, the paragraphs about transport. "... a turquoise-liveried fleet, a colour which was not universally popular."' Do we really need to know that people weren't sure about the colour of buses in 1970? What about just stating, as in the first paragraph, that Middlesbrough and the surrounding areas are served by a network of bus routes operated by Ariva and Stagecoach?
I think the page is full of such ramblings and would represent the town more if we cut a bit more back to the wood - especially when it's just people's unreferenced reminiscences of the good old days.
If it's compared with other pages - London, for example, - a good section on history is included ... but after that, only present day aspects are described.
Further to these points, I'ved noticed that three Middlesbroughs are being described:
... please discuss :) Francis Hannaway 11:08, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
It's very clear that that the page Middlesbrough and Middlesbrough Borough Council are talking about the same subject. I'm surprised others have been so quiet about the issue. Both articles are talking about the Unitary Authority of Middlesbrough aka Middlesbrough Borough Council. At least the Middlesbrough Borough Council page doesn't try to claim places in neighbouring Redcar and Cleveland.
So - let's hear your thoughts on the subject. All opinions welcome. Francis Hannaway 16:06, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
I added the tag for ext link cleanup bc there seem to be far too many ext links and many are used in the main text of the article where it would be more appropriate to turn them into inline citations/references. Comatmebro ~Come at me~ 07:08, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
I'm sure that there is enough interest to move the section about the Second World War to a new article. Then it could be expanded upon. As it is, it takes up a lot of space in an already overly long article. Any thoughts? Francis Hannaway 23:34, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
And dump here. NPOV and WP:FORK concern. In ictu oculi ( talk) 05:20, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
Why are "twinning" and "Twin towns" two separate sections? It's tempting to assume that it's a mistake and someone perhaps introduced one without seeing the other already there ... or ... ? DBaK ( talk) 10:08, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
I'm going to be bold and try to sort this out, but please chime in if you can help! The only good ref I can find so far is the Council's own page on the subject, which mentions only Oberhausen. Historyman53 (please see here) has very usefully pointed out that the ref I had for the Dunkirk thing is not reliable - it's a blog, and in fact I wrote to the journalist and he has no better ref beyond that, so I think that's it done as a WP:RS. But actually I think the council's own current page trumps all, so I am going to cut it back to Oberhausen, at least until someone shows up with an RS for anything else. I will de-duplicate the sections at the same time. Best wishes, DBaK ( talk) 13:56, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Someone has helpfully written a paragraph about the climate in Middlesbrough.
I would say that, with it being unreferenced, that it is complete original research and not completely helpful. It states that Middlesbrough has an oceanic climate and then that it has a continental climate. I don't know what's wrong with a good old-fashioned temperate climate. My understanding, and experience, of a continental climate, in Europe, is one of much hotter weather in the summer, but with extremely cold temperatures (-10 C to -20 C) in the winter. Would anyone agree that the excellent temperature and rainfall grid on the page would suffice? ... and that we can delete the paragraph, which, if referenced, would be more at home on a page about a region rather than a town? Francis Hannaway ( talk) 22:26, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
This one's for the muppets who keep changing "town" to "city": http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/9588713.Middlesbrough_misses_out_on_city_status/ Ma®©usBritish{ chat} 12:58, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
The ONS has released new information regarding urban areas, or built-up areas as they are now known, within the UK. The figures refer to the populations of what the ONS have designated as urban areas, regardless of administrative boundaries. In the case of Teesside, the ONS had previously classed Middlesbrough and Eston & Southbank as two separate urban sub-areas. The population of the Middlesbrough urban sub-area of Teesside was 142,921 (which was the entire Borough of Middlesbrough plus the Ormesby ward of Redcar & Cleveland) and Eston & Southbank as 32,600 (the remaining 5 wards of Greater Eston). Now, however, the ONS have classed Middlesbrough and Eston & Southbank as a single urban subdivision of the Teesside built-up area, with a population of 174,700 [8]. Now as far as im concerned this should be the official definition of the town of Middlesbrough and I think it should be included within the article to show Middlesbrough's urban population as 174,900 not 138,400 which is the population of the local authority and doesn't reflect the full extent of the entire built-up area. As this article is about the urban area and not the adminstrative district it should reflect all aspects of the area. With this in mind the areas of Eston and Southbank should feature within the article as they are now officially classed as part of the Middlesbrough area. Hopefully this may give some closure to the argument of what actually is considered Middlesbrough and what isn't, at least in terms of an official government statistics point of view. Acklamite ( talk) 00:00, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
That is correct Marcus, Eston and Southbank do indeed fall within Redcar & Cleveland council, im not disputing that. I am refferring to how the ONS have re-classed the urban area and its population, not the authority/council area which divides up the conurbation. As before, the ONS classed the urban sub-area of Teesside, known as Middlesbrough, to include areas outside of its authority area. Previously this was only limited to the Ormesby area. However, the Nomis website, which is part of the office for national statistics, shows a change in the methodolgy on what constitutes an urban area and re-classed them as built-up areas. The built-up area of Middlesbrough, or to be more specific Middlesbrough BUASD (buit up area subdivision), according to Nomis and the ONS has a total urban population of 174,700. This does not represent either the populations of the Borough of Middlesbrough nor that of Redcar & Cleveland which are completely different entities to the urban area, but is a more accurate way of representing built up areas that may have a natural urban continuity to them. I must stress again the former urban sub-areas or new built up areas are used to determine the population of an urban area and not the population of the authority. As for the legitamcy of the new methodolgy, I do not think it is simply just a data capture of an area made up purely for statistical purposes, but a way the government can be more accurate in defining population centres regardless of boundaries, physical or otherwise. Here is a link to the report published by the ONS about the re-designation of urban areas in the UK; Characteristics of Built-up areas. Also you are correct about the link I included above, I should have known better not to use a generated search as a reference, however as I have not found any other file or document that I could create a link to I had no option. Even if you go to this page, 2011 census, Key Statistics for Built-up Areas in England & Wales, you are still given the same link to the same section on Nomis. I will have to use an indirect method;
This link will take you to the usual resident population key statistics page. To download select built-up areas including subdivisions from the drop down box that says 'choose area type'. Or to use the Wizard Query fucntion; first select All next to built-up up areas including subdivisions (you may have to click the link built-up areas..... to access the locale afterwards) / select North East from the drop down box /s croll down the list and tick box next to Teesside - Middlesbrough BUASD (you can click the little map icon next to it to see the coverage of the built up area if you desire) then click next back at the top of the screen / the next steps are to choose variables and how the table is displayed and so forth, simply make your way through these steps by pressing next once completing / once you come to the end step you have a choice of format then click finish for the result! My apologies for how long winded all this may seem but this seems to be the only way to access this information.
Lastly, I also think that as this has been conducted by the ONS, which is part of the government, that it should be deemed official as it is how the government has the defined the area. Acklamite ( talk) 19:20, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
Hmm those pesky links, I even checked them by logging out then back into wiki and they worked! Oh well nevermind. Thankyou for the suggestion I shall bring it to the attention of editors and it should indeed be a UK wide standard. I was curious to see if any other articles had already introduced this particular data and indeed I discovered both Leeds [9] and York [10] to have included the 2011 Built-up areas figures for the urban population, aswell as showing the figures for their respective districts. Acklamite ( talk) 14:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
I have finally got round to bringing this up within the WikiProject UK geography portal and started a new topic for discussion with the main focus on getting all the current data for 2011 census updated. Currently BUASD's are not being used within any articles for towns and settlements nor are they within articles about conburbations, instead only BUA's are being used which of course refer to the entire conurbation or the population of the actual authority is used. Ive also mentioned that the article List of localities in England by population which uses the 2001 method of urban areas needs a new article created using the current 2011 data as this article is purely used for historical purposes now. "This article is provided for historical interest only, because this sense of 'locality' disappears in the 2011 census and the population data have been recalculated" I also noticed I have made a slight error when referring to the York area above. I said that the York article has already started using the population figure for its BUASD of 153,717. This is incorrect as this figure is for the entire Built up area or conurbation. The sub division of York which is part of the Built up area had a population of 152,841. This is because the York BUA is made up of not only York BUASD, the Earswick BUASD which has a seperate population of 876. I know it is only a small difference but still it was inaccurate. Acklamite ( talk) 11:47, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
Is Teesside Tintin notable enough for this article? We now have "Comic writer Nick Donnelly creator, voiceover and editor of Teesside Tintin" in the notable people section. Edits by Edaward123456 today - I will drop them a talkback message. DBaK ( talk) 12:03, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
Is Longlands a real enough bit of Middlesbrough to be in the list? I RVd an IP as they'd also trashed the list format and didn't seem to get the alpha order, but I'm agnostic on whether it should actually be in the list or not, and don't want to appear bitey - anyone advise please? Thanks and best wishes DBaK ( talk) 12:16, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
I know it is not commonly known outside of Middlesbrough (perhaps not even within Teesside!), but the fact remains that Middlesbrough had/has the second highest proportion of Irish born inhabitants/lineage in England after Liverpool [1] [2] [3] [4]. Not only did it have a large Irish influence but there was also a significant Welsh population making up 3.9% of Middlesbrough's population during the 1871 census. I definitely think it is worth mentioning as it had a big impact on the area such as evident with the Middlesbrough accent. Acklamite ( talk) 18:56, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
He is the architect/artist behind the creation of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_Island
His facebook says he is from middlesbrough https://www.facebook.com/richart.sowa — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.5.128.19 ( talk) 12:35, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
{{geodata-check}}
The following coordinate fixes are needed for Middlesbrough - shows up in Scarborough
— 83.170.111.148 ( talk) 01:19, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
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Middlesbrough (/ˈmɪdəlzbrə/ (About this soundlisten) MID-əlz-brə) is a large post-industrial town[1][2] founded in 1830 and situated on the south bank of the River Tees in the Tees Valley region of North East England.[3] The local council, a unitary authority, is Middlesbrough Borough Council. The 2011 Census recorded the borough's total resident population as 138,400 and the wider urban settlement with a population of 174,700.[4] Middlesbrough is part of the larger built-up area of Teesside which had an overall population of 376,333 at the 2011 Census.[5]
Middlesbrough became a county borough within the North Riding of Yorkshire in 1889. In 1968, the borough was merged with a number of others to form the County Borough of Teesside, which was absorbed in 1974 by the county of Cleveland. In 1996, Cleveland was abolished, and Middlesbrough Borough Council became a unitary authority within the Tees Valley. RGs Erimus ("We shall be" in Latin) was chosen as Middlesbrough's motto in 1830. It recalls Fuimus ("We have been") the motto of the Norman/Scottish Bruce family, who were lords of Cleveland in the Middle Ages. The town's coat of arms is an azure lion, from the arms of the Bruce family, a star, from the arms of Captain James Cook, and two ships, representing shipbuilding and maritime trade.[6] TeesInfo ( talk) 15:42, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
I've removed a paragraph about the local accent, which is unsourced and appears to be made up original research. I've pasted the text below in case any editor wants to find some reliable sources and reinstate it.
Another feature of the Middlesbrough accent is the presence of a harsh "CK" sound. This indicates a possible influence from the many Welsh speakers that inhabited Middlesbrough at the same time as the Irish. Words such as black, track and crack often have an emphasis on the ck which give it a sound of clearing the throat. Not only is this feature prominent in Welsh speakers but it is also present in speakers from Liverpool. This further suggests the similarities between speakers from Middlesbrough and the Liverpool area.
~dom Kaos~ ( talk) 12:43, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
Please note - when adding your Boro-Love anecdotes about how great and beautiful Middlesbrough is, that Wikipedia is not TripAdvisor. Writing should be concise and informative, with statistics and not hearsay. Francis Hannaway ( talk) 17:49, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
This section was very messy, after tidying it up, it appears to be too long + very cumbersome. This section needs to be moved entirely to List of people from Middlesbrough to tidy up. Devokewater ( talk) 13:31, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
Should Middlehaven get its own section in the article:
They is probably a set boundary but A66 is pretty much to the south and Tees to the north. Where did the name come from, probably simply Middle+haven and when did it come to been named as such. Chocolateediter ( talk) 02:17, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
I need to know when the name came into use since it has exist atleast since 2007 but I cannot back date it any further.
Iron and steel works in what is now Middlehaven is a good section to build up. (Surely some wiki-articles exist to get overviews and references to these, I have a map reference to form a list to look up)
The stadium and transporter bridge (even Newport bridge making the whole bridges section go to Middlehaven) can all move over.
Development sources are easy enough to find. I’ll start making it tomorrow if I feel like it, at most, the whole Middlehaven section will definitely be done in a week.
For starters I’ll put summit on the lines of: “Middlehaven is waterfront of Middlesbrough. It hosts the old town centre and most of the settlement’s industry.” Chocolateediter ( talk) 18:23, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
Done Chocolateediter ( talk) 16:52, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
There is a discussion at talk:Milton Keynes#"Large" town that may be of interest to editors of this article (since it also uses the phrase "large town"). -- John Maynard Friedman ( talk) 10:52, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
Middlesbrough is a large town. Larger than any town in Teesside but they maintain large in their leads. RailwayJG ( talk) 14:06, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
There are four different population figures, the correct figures need to be agreed. Devoke water 08:14, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
Have tweaked the wording slightly + removed unsourced reference to Teeside. Devoke water 23:09, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
I have again removed reference to the urban subdivision of Middlesbrough as per this discussion Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_localities_in_England_by_population they aren't settlements. Anyway Middlesbrough is part of the urban area known as Teesside so we should be using the figure for that when discussing Middlesbrough's wider urban area population even if some of it isnt in the same district. Eopsid ( talk) 21:55, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
We are now back to four different population figures again.
Devoke
water
21:20, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
Just noticed that their are four different population figures, again:
- Main article says: In 2019, the population of the town itself was estimated to be 177,354
- Whilist the infobox: 174,700 (2011 Census)
Regards Devoke water 20:21, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Can we have some agreement on what to include. Some editors want to quote 140k, others 170k + others want to include the entire Teeside population. The sources also vary with some quoting the 2011 census + others quoting 2019 estimates for the same figures! Regards Devoke water 18:00, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
The built-up area represents the wider area around a place, for example a city and any linked towns and villages. Sub-divisions provide greater detail in the data, by identifying the neighbouring settlements and localities within the larger conurbations.Koncorde ( talk) 11:33, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
The built-up area represents the wider area around a place, for example a city and any linked towns and villages. Sub-divisions provide greater detail in the data, by identifying the neighbouring settlements and localities within the larger conurbations.There is nothing about that second sentence that precludes a BUASD being a town or series of settlements as being their own thing within the "larger conurbation" - however the interpretation is that in some cases the BUASD and those sub-data areas do reflect an "Urban Area" (because they conform to historic definition & boundaries) and in other cases do not (because they don't conform to the historic definition & boundaries). Middlesbrough falls into the second camp. Koncorde ( talk) 19:44, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
I've changed the population figure yet again. The population in the infobox should be the smallest one for Middlesbrough. There are other tags in those infoboxes for urban population and stuff like that. Eopsid ( talk) 21:03, 3 June 2021 (UTC) Probably have to change the whole info box to a settlement one rather than UK place. Might do tomorrow. Eopsid ( talk) 21:15, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Why, has the article been split into two, one for the Borough of Middlesbrough and this one Middlesbrough? I dont think it warrants two articles. All the information in the new article is covered by this one and Middlesbrough Council Eopsid ( talk) 20:04, 17 February 2021 (UTC) I suggest they be merged together again. Eopsid ( talk) 20:19, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
Hi Crouch, Swale thank you for your input. If your satisfied with the two being able to be seperate and kept as are. I had no problem with Darlington and Stockton now. But what of Hartlepool? Is that worthy of a borough page like Middlesbrough? But at least we can keep the article for middlesbrough and the borough of middlesbrough as it does exist as you stated. Looks like York has already been merged into one. RailwayJG ( talk) 21:09, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
Well I'm glad we can keep them separate as no point getting rid of the borough page when it actually exists. And covers some areas as mentioned. I'm happy to see it can be kept so thanks anyway for your input. RailwayJG ( talk) 21:35, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
Crouch, Swale should we call an agreement to this debate of it being able to be kept? RailwayJG ( talk) 21:38, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
The fact is a borough exists I'm Middlesbrough. It is worth having a separate page as it will give the borough more exposure then a simple section on the town article. And wards and political makeup are then the focus of the page then the town one. Makes it easier and if Crouch is happy they can be separate then let's all agree and put this to bed. Borough is of you check out the page and references mentioned on BBC news and Teesidelive RailwayJG ( talk) 21:44, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
Seems pointless when you've already had two other people input on it. But fine. It's just not gonna change the fact the borough exists whether we want to pretend it does or not. RailwayJG ( talk) 21:45, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
This Wikipedia:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about districts has 6 criteria to decide whether we should have multiple articles for borough and town. The borough doesn't satisfy any of the criteria except 4 although thats because middlesbrough has a weird local government history with it being part of the last new county borough, County Borough of Teesside. Eopsid ( talk) 20:34, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
The Tees area has definitely been somewhat of a test area for government. Teesside being the first river+side county in any sense then abolished just as the others came along and has the first “metro mayor” as Tees Valley. Wish south Tees went back to Yorkshire fully politically and statistically hopefully now those regions are fading. Chocolateediter ( talk) 22:20, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
Although I dont agree there doesnt seem to be any consensus to merge so I'm going to remove the merge notice. Eopsid ( talk) 10:57, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
The below is from WP:UKDISTRICTS, Middlesbrough passes every one of these except how old the boundaries are. Which is a weird quirk because middlesbrough's current boundaries are smaller than the district it was in 1974.
Single articles are generally created where the settlement/district matches most of the following criteria: 1. The built-up area closely matches the boundaries of the district with no rural hinterland 2. There is a lack of other distinct settlements in the district 3. The ONS population for the settlement is roughly the same, or larger than the district 4. The current boundaries of the district are long-established and predate reforms in 1974 5. There are very few or preferably no civil parishes in the district 6. The district does not cover a geographically large area
Eopsid ( talk) 18:13, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
In 1968 Middlesbrough became part of the County Borough of Teesside, and in 1974 it became part of the non-metropolitan county of Cleveland until the county's abolition in 1996, when Middlesbrough became a unitary authority of North Yorkshire.while the BUA map is unclear if this is the "town" or not but given that the BUA includes distinct historic "settlements" [13] like Eston that fall under other districts (presumably our Redcar and Cleveland article is also counting Eston and others in its figures based on this logic)?
The borough exists where editors agree or disagree. There are no notable settlements in Hartlepool Stockton or Darlington but they have borough pages. There was already debates and it was agreed to be kept. Reopening an old debate already agreed on is pointless. It passes wiki standards and is reliable. Those against it think Middlesbrough is only a town with a borough. Yet another town is Slough but it has a borough page RailwayJG ( talk) 20:08, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
That was already disputed as you know Eopsid and you asked on nearly two different pages for census and they agreed to keep the borough. You suggested merging and it was decided to be kept. RailwayJG ( talk) 21:56, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
And what distinct settlements does Hartlepool contain other than possibly Seaton Carew? RailwayJG ( talk) 21:56, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
From what I can see on maps Hartlepool is the same as Middlesbrough. Stuck with one small village and two suburbs. Other settlements are either in county Durham itself outside the so called borough or in Stockton Borough. So I heavily disagree with notable settlements for Hartlepool. RailwayJG ( talk) 21:58, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
I'd merge Hartlepool and it's borough as it's smaller then Middlesbrough and has no distinct settlements. Find me a reliable source to clarify distinct settlements for the others which apparently Middlesbrough lacks. RailwayJG ( talk) 22:00, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
Again the debate was had and the census was to keep the borough page so reopening the debate to merge it is pointless. I've tried changing the population but the it won't let me on a pc or mobile RailwayJG ( talk) 16:21, 26 March 2021 (UTC)