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The term was first used by Harvard-educated botanist Robert Greenleaf Leavitt in the journal Botanical Gazette in 1909, addressing what he called the "mystery" of how formlessness give rise to form.[ref] Leavitt, Robert Botanical Gazette 1909 vol.47 no.1 Jan. A Vegetative Mutant, and the Principle of Homoeosis in Plants http://www.jstor.org/pss/2466778 [/ref]
Botanical Gazette 1909 vol.47: Robert Greenleaf Levitt "...The production of form from formlessness in the egg-derived individual, the multiplication of parts and the orderly creation of diversity among them, in an actual evolution, of which anyone may ascertain the facts, but of which no one has dissipated the mystery in any significant measure. This MICROEVOLUTION forms an integral part of the grand evolution problem and lies at the base of it, so that we shall have to understand the minor process before we can thoroughly comprehend the more general one."
pp 67-68: "Whatever be the basis assumed for an explanation of the microevolution which we call ontogenesis-- whether the existence of special form-controlling bodies, or the general properties of the organic molecules, or organ-forming stuffs capable of diffusion, or some other basis-- the abrupt diversion of formative currents and transformation of members into others of usually dissimilar origin, the frequent appearance of forms in locations not expected in the ordinary sequence of development, and the potentiality of all parts in each part, indicated by the general phenomenon which we have been calling homoeosis, will need to be provided for in our ultimate theory of development." TongueSpeaker ( talk) 16:21, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
The article says microevolution only believes in "destructive genetic mutations, which happen to confer an advantage to individuals in a specific environment". If it confers an advantage in a specific environment, how is it a destructive mutation? Constructive vs. destructive is purely determined in relation to the environment.
The example seems to me like evidence that beneficial microevolution is possible. The fact that a person can intentionally turn it into a destructive one by altering the environment *away* *from* the microevolution doesn't change the fact that the organism originally adapted in a beneficial way. The organism developed the resistance to penicillin while in its presence -- obviously a beneficial adaptation. -- Dmerrill
I think point is that the presence of the antibiotic is a rare event (for the organism), the fact is that in the most common environment, the adaptation to produce penicillinase is not beneficial. It takes resources that could be better focussed on survival. -- BenBaker
I agree. the adaptation was beneficial. and if the environment change was common, it would be appropriate to call it a beneficial adaptation. I think you are using a different criteria for naming than the one intended. I believe that the naming criteria is to describe the adaptation by its impact in the most common environment. Not in the rare situation in which the adaptation flourished. But truthfully, I didn't come up with the adjective, and encourage you to edit the original document to clarify it. -- BenBaker
I would encourage you, however, to remember the article should be describing microevolution rather than beneficial adaptation.
I wish I had a link to the article I got the bacterial example from. It did a much better job than I did here. The gist of it was that these bacteria normally produce a substance which protects them against Penicillin, but they have a gene which limits the amount produced. In the resistant bacteria, this limiting gene is "damaged", so they produce much higher levels than normal, allowing them to thrive in the presence of Penicillin. But this comes at a high price, consuming much of their energy and resources, so that in a "normal" environment, they can't compete with the "normal" bacteria and quickly die out. I'll agree that calling it a destructive mutation is indeed relative. -- RussellReed
Talking about whether or not a mutation is deleterious or beneficial to an individual only makes sense in the context of environment. Thus whether or not a mutation is deleterious or beneficial to an idividual can change as the environment changes. Whether or not a mutation is deleterious or beneficial to a species depends on whether it increases the fitness of that lineage - something we cannot predict over the long term because we cannot predict how environment is going to change over the long term. - Safay 20:56, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
The biggest questions I have about this concept is are:
Also, the article says macroevolution is a big change in an organism -- do you really mean by that a change in a single generation from one species to another? If so, it's a straw man since scientists don't believe in that either.
I think these issues should be addressed in the article. -- Dmerrill
I'd like the concepts of microevolution and macroevolution better related to the debate over evolution. Moreover, I think they are best used as terms that define the debate, rather than concepts in themselves to be disputed.
The theory of evolution, if it is indeed scientifically sound (and almost no one here doubts that), should be able to stand on its own merits without you all feeling you must defend it at every point.
The various articles which present alternatives to evolution, however outlandish or zany they seem to you scienntists, require merely a link or two each to the accepted science.
-- Ed Poor
I agree that a discussion of how these concepts relate to evolutionary theory would be a good thing. But as I said before, I don't know this theory, so I can only ask questions, which imho is an important way to make an article better. -- Dmerrill
slrubenstein what was here before was more correct than what you replaced it with -- Please reintegrate the factual portion of what you placed here. In general please try to add content to an article instead of replacing it with your own views -- makes everything easier for everybody. :) -- maveric149
I revised the revert in a way that I believe keeps those parts Maveric149 consider accurate. Nevertheless, the earlier version was at times redundant and inconsistent. My goal was to continue ridding the article of inaccuracies while fixing the style. SR
From primates to humans? Are humans now something besides primates?
I still don't understand what microevolution is. How about:
In particular, I would like to understand the importance (if any) of microevolution within neo-Darwinism, i.e., standard evolutionary theory. Only after that would I even be interested in reading about what anti-evolutionists think -- despite my owen religious views. Ed Poor, Tuesday, June 11, 2002
I also do not know what more you want on the evolution/creation debate -- shouldn't that be a different article?
I propose that we combine the microevolution and macroevolution articles into one article. From what I've studied, there is a theory that macroevolution occurs by different mechanisms than microevolution. These terms only make sense within that theoretical framework. If someone believes that "macroevolution" and "microevolution" occur by the same mechanisms, then they don't bother to use those two terms...it's all just evolution to them.
Further, this is a real debate among real biologists. The creationists will latch onto and distort anything that they can; their views should just be a footnote of the article and not the meat of it. I'm studying this issue right now in one of my classes and will be happy to contribute more in a month or two after I've read everything that my professor has recommended. -- adam
I think I'm seeing the word evolution being used with two different meanings, and I think these meanings are sufficiently different that they should be highlighted rather than glossed over. They are NOT synonyms.
In sense #1, Creationists would clearly be wrong if they said "no evolution ever takes place", because there are readily observable genetic differences.
In sense #2, Creationists would not necessarily be wrong if they said "no evolution ever takes place", because there is no proof that natural forces alone are sufficient to cause new species to come into being.
Indeed the idea that natural forces alone are sufficient to cause new species to come into being is arguably not even a "scientific hypothesis", because there's no way to falsify it -- unless and until somebody succeeds in creating a new species in the laboratory (shades of Frankenstein!). -- Uncle Ed 14:04, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Graft, if I understand you right you are saying that one theory cannot be falsified, but that a second theory can.
Before I go off half-cocked, please confirm whether I have restated your position correctly. And BTW is this the position of biologists generally as well? -- Uncle Ed 16:50, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I agree that this discussion belongs on a page about the debate between creation and evolution. But here I am getting sucked in anyway. The confusion here stems from the difference between deductive and inductive reasoning. Biologists do not need to do experiments to show that speciation is an evolutionary process, because a preponderance of evidence supports an evolutionary explaination and no other; this is called inductive reasoning and is a valid scientific process, and is used especially often in evolutionary biology, geology, planetary science, astronomy, and cosmology. All the evidence supports a hypothesis that evolution is what gave us the diversity of life on earth. None of the evidence contradicts it. Safay 18:33, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Duncharris,
Why did you delete the example of the primrose plant?
Regards, -- Jason Gastrich 22:03, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I think the definition of macroevolution provided here is incorrect. We don't need the two terms macroevolution and microevolution if they do not refer to different processes. This article currently states that the processes underlying macroevo are the same, i.e., allele frequency changes. The Modern Synthesis does assert that a change in allele frequencies is the only kind of evolution that really occurs. This is what Eldridge and Gould and other supporters of the idea of macroevolutionary processes disagree with. Thus there is a disjunct in what evolutionary biologists agree upon as the scope of evolutionary process. (An aside: This disagreement is what the creationists latch on to and make wild claims about there being a crisis in evolutionary biology, that we don't understand macroevolutionary process and thus must invoke a creator.)
Macroevolution refers to processes that occur above the level of species. The Neo-Darwinists will assert that no such processes exist, and thus we truly don't need the two words micro- and macroevolution. The people who do support macroevolution will assert that it involves processes that cannot be explained through population genetics. Thus, in an article about macroevolution and microevolution, we should use the definition that the macroevolutionists use, and explain the existence of the controversy over the subject.
I think this further highlights the need to combine the two articles, macro- and microevolution.
What do you all think of this? If no one responds in a week I'm just going to go ahead and do it and see if that bears out.
Safay 06:52, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Why was my contribution on Micro/Macroevolution reversed? Macroevolution is a speculated hypothesis while Microevolution is a proven theory. Neither Macro nor Microevolution have enough evidence to be taken as a scientific law. And because Wikipedia allows later changes to be made to an article thne we should list micro and macroevolution as it is currently, theory and hypothesis. - Teofil Bartlomiej 20:41, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Your additions were inaccurate. You should not insert factually inaccurate material into Wikipedia articles. Please don't do that. Guettarda 21:09, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
This thread http://groups.google.com/group/talk.origins/browse_thread/thread/38df9a9a127281a8/cea310284f6d201c#cea310284f6d201c states that Micro Evolution occured in the Oxford English Dictionary is from 1911, citing the American Naturalist v. 45, p. 256. The first for "macro-evolution" is Dobzhansky's "Genetics & Origin of Species". Was Micro coined before Macro? TongueSpeaker 20:49, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
The author of phrase "ME" had a specific concept that he used "Micro Evolution" for as a technical description. Everybody seems to have their own defenition of the word such as "small changes", "change below the species level" etc. Imagine we all just have our own defenition for the technical jargon phrase "signal-to-noise ratio". It has a specific meaning which represents a concept and thus you can't just hijack the phrase and associate it with a different concept than what Shannon had in mind. The same logic extends to "Micro Evolution", everybody seemingly knows what it means but nobody even bothers to cite the author and what concept did he wish to convey with it. TongueSpeaker 11:21, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
How is Marcroevolution not Reductionist in that it is mostly, if not entirely, dependent upon Mircoevolution? Why is this supposed dichotomous distinction even trying to be postulated? -- Carlon 16:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC) To call Macroevolution "holistic" implies that there is some kind of "magic" not present in Microevolution that must happen for Macroevolution to be possible. In reality the difference is only one of degree: given enough time, Microevolution IS Macroevolution. There is nothing holistic going on; the whole is no more or less than the sum of its parts. It's like saying Macro-counting is holistic and Micro-counting is reductionist because we can observe the numbers between one and 10 but nobody's ever been observed to count to a trillion. 71.228.211.57 ( talk) 15:03, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
I am mildly astonished that Wikipedia even has this article.
"Evolution" is change in allele frequency over time in a breeding population. No more, no less. It is the unified field theory of biology, and it parsimoniously explains everything from antibiotic-resistant bacteria to the beak of the zebra finch to humanity's triumphant conquest of this planet.
"Microevolution" and "macroevolution" are shibboleths used by religious cranks who object to the philosophical implications of certain empirically verified facts from the fields of biology and zoology. Worse, they are casuistries, created to deceive the ignorant.
Is it too late for a VFD?
archival of anti-evolutionist commentary that doesn't work to improve article |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Is science not primarily about observation and reproducible results? If so, it seems microevolution fits the definition while macroevolution is more in the field of philosophy. We can observe small changes over a few generations. We cannot reproduce large scale changes that have been postulated to have occurred on a geologic time scale. Thucy ( talk) 23:57, 9 July 2009 (UTC) |
Dude, You are not summarizing the quote, you are in fact quoting it directly. Summary means that you give the gist of what the quote is saying. Your understanding of the quote is also a little off. Also, you keep creating a second section for "Usage in 1927" when it is completely unnecessary. Please stop. -- Woland ( talk) 17:43, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
...I study medicine and like to think I know my biology. To the best of my knowledge, there is no distinction between the process of "microevolution" and "macroevolution" in modern genetics. Isn't "macroevolution" simply a non-scientific term for "a lot of" microevolution. The biological process is the same. In Microevolution vs Macroevolution, Austin Cline explains this common misconception. Now, I might be missing something, but is it possible this article was created by those American "creationists" (or whatever they call themselves) trying to account for the variety of dog breeds? :P If so, an AfD might be a good idea. I imagine anything sensible can easily be included in the main Evolution article. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 09:59, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Right, had a look at Google... however, shouldn't it still be outlined that both terms are used to describe the same biological process but on a different scale? (Changes in allele frequencies essentially bring about large-scale changes in gene frequencies.) Just so we make it clear that it doesn't make sense to claim microevolution takes place while macroevolution doesn't. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 17:37, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Agreed, no sense creationist-proofing articles. Regards :) -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 18:01, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
The scientific term for that which you describe would be "Evolution that takes place normally but then stops for some unknown reason...ition" :). I can't begin to tell you how wrong that statement is... If you believe in what you describe, than you believe in the basic "mechanism" of evolution. If you believe in the basic mechanism of evolution, then you believe in evolution. What you're saying is "evolution takes place, but not too much of it". *sigh*... -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 22:04, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
"Mutating from a bird to a human"? Firstly, that never actually happened. Its nonsense to even write such a thing. You could have said "mutating from an ape-like common ancestor to a human", and it wouldn't sound so silly, would it? Changes take place generation by generation, simply stating the end result of uncounted millions and millions of years of natural selection is an "argument" only in biased eyes.
The strongest arguments for evolution are genetic, and they are almost never addressed by creationists. This is so for two main reasons. 1) Because the vast majority of them are not trying to seriously disprove evolution in the scientific community (which is almost impossible given the evidence), but are trying to mislead the general public which does not really understand more than the simplest genetics. 2) Because the vast majority of creationism advocates trying to "disprove" the theory of evolution are not even scientists at all (lawyers, theologians, teachers, etc.) and don't understand the matter themselves.
The "holes" in the theory of evolution have been compared to "holes in cheese" by the American Scientist. The holes exist, but saying that the cheese doesn't exist because of them is absurd. Creationists are people who believe unconditionally in things that have no scientific evidence whatsoever, but set impossible criteria of scientific proof for anything that contradicts that which they believe unconditionally.
I also recall another frequently quoted and interesting metaphor. Evolution compared to "walking". Microevolution = a walk to the kitchen, while macroevolution would be a walk to the north pole. Its the same thing. The only difference is timescale. --
DIREKTOR (
TALK) 13:12, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Microevolution cannot exist without macroevolution, since the timescale in question is simply too large, and macroevolution cannot exist without microevolution, since its "made-up" of the latter. (Damn! Now a creationist could quote me saying "macroevolution is made up", double damn! ;)) Its one and the same thing. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 13:44, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Ok, first of all, did you just say drepanocytosis is evolution? :) Or, for that matter, did you just say that genetically transmitted diseases are proof of the non-existence of speciation? This borders among the most incredible things I've ever heard... :D It would appear that the fundamental fallacy in your logic is that you believe all mutations are harmful? They are absolutely not. For example: if it weren't for beneficial mutations, Europe would not've survived the black plague. There are also very many modern-day observed cases of beneficial mutations that, if natural selection still took place in human society, would have allowed for significant beneficial changes to the human genome. However, most mutations are neither harmful or beneficial.
Now, let me explain what you're saying: what you're saying (basically) is that changes do take place, but that it is impossible for so many changes to take place that procreation can't occur between the ancestor species and the new species (sex :). That's speciation (a product of "macroevolution"). This makes no sense, whatsoever, since enough "changes" to organisms ("microevolution") invariably bring about the inability of procreation between them and the ancestor (Chihuahua and a Great Dane? :). At that point, genetic material between them can no longer be exchanged.
I'm not going to "argue" with you, there's nothing to argue about. Speciation has, in fact, been observed in empirical conditions and fully documented. There are quite a few observed instances of speciation, or evolution beyond the level of species, which takes place rather often in plants and lower lifeforms (bacteria especially). Now I know you probably believe "all points of view are equally valid" or whatnot ("we both firmly believe our points, and we can argue and neither budge..."), which is ok in politics, but in scientific discussions they are absolutely not. In scientific discussions, two views are almost never equal, the weight of actual evidence (amost) always supports one side or the other more predominantly. There are exceptions, but the very thought that this is one is laughable. There's nothing for it, this may seem "blunt" but the I am right (i.e. the scientific community is right), and you are blatantly wrong (i.e. fringe movements and christian fundamentalists are blatantly wrong). Also, only creationists "never budge" - because the bible never gets updated :) -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 10:06, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Looks like this article is about to become a a battleground for Truth peddlers. Semi-protection may be required. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 12:54, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Thank you DIREKTOR for using the talk page that is mannerly of you.
The way the paragraph read (not read) :-) earlier is clearly a point of view. I have contributed scientific peer reviewed articles to show that this is still debated. Yes evolutionist claim this, but there are hundreds of Scientists that indicate this is not accurate. To have a NPOV this par. should either be deleted or have both sides of an issue. In addition there are scientific organizations that do not accept the statement below, as I mentioned it is still debated. Old Statement in quote, "The attempt to differentiate between microevolution and macroevolution is considered to have no scientific basis by any mainstream scientific organization, including the American Association for the Advancement of Science." Not all scientific organizations accept that sweeping generalization. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] Berkely teaches there is a difference between micro and macro too. [6] Here one can find the other side of the coin. [7] Swiping dirt under the rug is not the way to get rid of it. Deal with it rather than delete it. Let the reader decide if it is valid or not. Our job is not to do the thinking for the person. 75.133.36.15 ( talk) 13:24, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
No one is doubting evolution. What I am doubting is the ability of this page to present accurate balanced info. It contains a POV which is not a neutral point. Macro and Micro is still debated. The truth is not afraid of a little contra argument. 75.133.36.15 ( talk) 18:10, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
I suppose experience can't be a teacher. I am sure you can't be hungry either but can only have hungry. Why the nit-picking? is there a word called personification? This just proves my point. How can one see beyond a wall when all they want to look at are the bricks, yet the window is right there! Is that my tail I am chasing? I am getting dizzy. The way the paragraph is stated is a POV. I am not saying that there is no evidence, I am saying that there is a growing scientific community that doubts that evidence. As such the article can/should mention that not all in the scientific community except what the article leads a person to believe that Micro and Macro are really the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.133.36.15 ( talk) 23:33, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Don't think Archaeopteryx was a sick bird since it would have died out. If your interested in the truth then you will have no problem reading this in the New York Times on this sick chicken. [11] 75.133.36.15 ( talk) 05:45, 27 November 2009 (UTC) CAUTION: Reading the above article might just help you understand that scientists debate the issues that this wiki article says are fact. I guess I will believe wiki over the scientists since only balanced NPOV pages are allow. And regardless of the facts, we will stick with our one sided opinion since...just the thought of... 75.133.36.15 ( talk) 05:52, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
Wait it is not a sick bird but a dinosaur. This in itself proes my point this all is debatable. [12] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.133.36.15 ( talk) 06:01, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
I notice the citation for no difference between micro and macro is talk origins. since when is this site regarded as 'scientific'? Ref ward ( talk) 21:43, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
then could we consider just saying "talk origins says this is misuse"? otherwise it could be seen as misleading Ref ward ( talk) 21:57, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to propose a rewrite of this paragraph on the basis that the description of the creationist definition of "microevolution" is considerably off the mark. Though admittedly, there is no clear consensus regarding these alternate definitions among creationists, I think what I propose is generally more representative. I would also like to highlight some of the miscommunication and confusion that has arisen from these alternate definitions, a problem which the current version not only fails to recognise, but is also directly subject to. 109.156.110.166 ( talk) 21:17, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
The one about the American Association for the Advancement of Science - it just links to their press release page, which no longer references what the article says. I briefly looked for a direct link but was unsuccessful Fcrick ( talk) 01:00, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
Why is the validly referenced definition for Microevolution that I sourced from Webster's New World College Dictionary being removed? I think you guys need to look at WP:VERIFY and WP:V before you remove a reference....-- Gniniv ( talk) 01:39, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
Are these good faith edits, or are you trying to suppress a neutral definition?-- Gniniv ( talk) 02:10, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
Gotcha! I realize that the other editors were acting in good faith, and I apologise, my comments were out of line....-- Gniniv ( talk) 02:35, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
I am fine if we include the "expert definition" mentioned above, the only reason I inserted one from Websters is there was either no reference on the claimed definitions (in the article) or the reference was to a talk website, not a peer reviewed publication...-- Gniniv ( talk) 02:38, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
I have changed the title of this discussion from Reference Vandal? to Referencing to remove the negative connation (I realize that editors were acting in good faith in removing my reference)..-- Gniniv ( talk) 02:49, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
I don't think that Talk Origins constitutes an "expert" source, isn't it a talk/discussion website? Considering that I am referencing from a established dictionary and am waiting until a better "peer reviewed source" can be found, I think my reference can stay (especially since I am not removing the talk origins reference to begin with...-- Gniniv ( talk) 02:49, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
No matter how many times a reference has been used, if it is from a non-accredited source (a talk/discussion/opinion blog) than it doesn't belong in Wikipedia as a reference for the official definition of a term (Maybe as a reference on the opinions about the term but not the "expert" definition)....-- Gniniv ( talk) 00:34, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
I have come to the conclusion through the efforts of a neutral third-party editor that dictionaries are not valid reference sources in this situation. However, I remain unconvinced that a "Talk Origins" blog is a valid source for a definition either. Any thoughts?-- Gniniv ( talk) 02:52, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
I am going to replace the current link with the Webster's definition until Talk Origins is replaced with a peer reviewed publication. It's a blog for crying out loud!--Gniniv ( talk) 05:45, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
I have never edited a page before or anything, but the very first line on the page says microevolution is "a change in gene frequency within a population over time." I am familiar with the citation associated with the quote, and I use the Berkeley page in my classroom. However, this is a misuse of the term and should be "a change in allele frequency within a population over time." It could also read "allele frequencies within a gene" or something like that, but gene frequency is technically incorrect. It may seem nit-picky, but the term gene gets misused often enough as it is. If someone that is a frequent editor agrees with me, please make the change. Thanks mralph — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.247.172.137 ( talk) 22:30, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
Greetings Mann Jess, I am following up on the last reverts on this section. You said you wanted to discuss the information. So what's on your mind? This section did not reflect the reference adequately on the American Association for the Advancement of Science since it did not talk about "no scientific basis for distinction" at all. It merely noted that microevolution eventually makes macroevolution. This is interpreting more into the citation than the citation allows. Furthermore, the whole first paragraph was erroneous. No citations were provided for those claims which make this paragraph too apologetic, not neutral enough, and not well supported. Also, it does not reflect adequately the views of creationists. For example,the AIG citation (which is a very popular creationist institution) flat out contradicts the claim that creationists even endorse the micro/macrevlution words in the first place. They clearly do believe in natural selection, speciation, and microevolution, however they interpret the macroevolution differently. Its a subtle difference, not a massive one that many actually imagine. They are also not "anti-evolution", they are, if anything, "non-macroevolutionists via purely natural processes". I think my edit was well sourced and that I balanced some of the claims. What can we do about this? I hope to hear from you soon. Ramos1990 ( talk) 07:31, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
Hey Dave Souza, good edit on the AAAS point. Yes I agree that the section needs more improvement since much of it has no citations. I will add a citation from NSCE on how microevolution is normally accepted creationists later today [ [15]]. It even notes the piece of information that a creationists have argued that a creationist came up with the concept of natural selection first (implying that natural selection is not mutually exclusive to "evolution" nor is it equivalent to it necessarily). What do you think? Obviously there is lots of overlap in terms of microevolution in all sides since creationists, just like anyone else, accepts processes and phenomena which are directly observable today. Interpretations and extrapolations of concepts (which are diverse) is what they seem to disagree with. If they are perceived as psudoscientific by some is irrelevant in this section since the section is about microevolution, which everyone accepts, and how it is perceived or used, not the likelihood of correctness of their other models, theories, or claims. I will see on how to make this section more neutral and more focused on the issue later on. Ramos1990 ( talk) 20:59, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
I saw your edits. They are good. The sources I was able to find were from the 80's, but 1 book citation I added was from 2009. I am not sure why this was not taken into account. In terms of the 80's citations, they are still relevant. If you have kept up with creationist literature, you will notice that not much has changed at the base (as is common in the history of many ideas). This could be seen in the AIG citation (which is a very big organization on this), which was much more recent. Furthermore, some of the references in the rest of the article are from the 80s. I don't think it would be much of an issue. The section looks much better and more reasonable with the recent additions and wording than it did a few days ago. On the side matter, in terms of: Blyth, you also mentioned Paley etc, and natural selection; this was merely to point out that creationists are not against these ideas in and of themselves nor were they against them from the very beginning. Many today seem to miss this and they do not make much of an effort to emphasize this point. A common misconception today is that many assume that creationists have ignored these or have disagreed with these ideas completely from the very beginning - which is absurd. Part of this is fueled by the popular belief in the "conflict thesis" which was debunked by historians of science the last century. Creationists obviously used these ideas for diverse conclusions in the past (including as a balance of lifeforms from too much deviation). As you noted, there is a very long history of conceptions on the diversification and limitations of creatures and there are deviants by degree to the Wallace-Darwinian theory (i.e Lamarck, Blyth, Lyell, St. Augustine, Aristotle, etc.). I agree with you that Darwin was the best at synthesizing the idea of natural selection (he coined the term) and made it into an abstract construct. Ramos1990 ( talk) 17:29, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
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The term was first used by Harvard-educated botanist Robert Greenleaf Leavitt in the journal Botanical Gazette in 1909, addressing what he called the "mystery" of how formlessness give rise to form.[ref] Leavitt, Robert Botanical Gazette 1909 vol.47 no.1 Jan. A Vegetative Mutant, and the Principle of Homoeosis in Plants http://www.jstor.org/pss/2466778 [/ref]
Botanical Gazette 1909 vol.47: Robert Greenleaf Levitt "...The production of form from formlessness in the egg-derived individual, the multiplication of parts and the orderly creation of diversity among them, in an actual evolution, of which anyone may ascertain the facts, but of which no one has dissipated the mystery in any significant measure. This MICROEVOLUTION forms an integral part of the grand evolution problem and lies at the base of it, so that we shall have to understand the minor process before we can thoroughly comprehend the more general one."
pp 67-68: "Whatever be the basis assumed for an explanation of the microevolution which we call ontogenesis-- whether the existence of special form-controlling bodies, or the general properties of the organic molecules, or organ-forming stuffs capable of diffusion, or some other basis-- the abrupt diversion of formative currents and transformation of members into others of usually dissimilar origin, the frequent appearance of forms in locations not expected in the ordinary sequence of development, and the potentiality of all parts in each part, indicated by the general phenomenon which we have been calling homoeosis, will need to be provided for in our ultimate theory of development." TongueSpeaker ( talk) 16:21, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
The article says microevolution only believes in "destructive genetic mutations, which happen to confer an advantage to individuals in a specific environment". If it confers an advantage in a specific environment, how is it a destructive mutation? Constructive vs. destructive is purely determined in relation to the environment.
The example seems to me like evidence that beneficial microevolution is possible. The fact that a person can intentionally turn it into a destructive one by altering the environment *away* *from* the microevolution doesn't change the fact that the organism originally adapted in a beneficial way. The organism developed the resistance to penicillin while in its presence -- obviously a beneficial adaptation. -- Dmerrill
I think point is that the presence of the antibiotic is a rare event (for the organism), the fact is that in the most common environment, the adaptation to produce penicillinase is not beneficial. It takes resources that could be better focussed on survival. -- BenBaker
I agree. the adaptation was beneficial. and if the environment change was common, it would be appropriate to call it a beneficial adaptation. I think you are using a different criteria for naming than the one intended. I believe that the naming criteria is to describe the adaptation by its impact in the most common environment. Not in the rare situation in which the adaptation flourished. But truthfully, I didn't come up with the adjective, and encourage you to edit the original document to clarify it. -- BenBaker
I would encourage you, however, to remember the article should be describing microevolution rather than beneficial adaptation.
I wish I had a link to the article I got the bacterial example from. It did a much better job than I did here. The gist of it was that these bacteria normally produce a substance which protects them against Penicillin, but they have a gene which limits the amount produced. In the resistant bacteria, this limiting gene is "damaged", so they produce much higher levels than normal, allowing them to thrive in the presence of Penicillin. But this comes at a high price, consuming much of their energy and resources, so that in a "normal" environment, they can't compete with the "normal" bacteria and quickly die out. I'll agree that calling it a destructive mutation is indeed relative. -- RussellReed
Talking about whether or not a mutation is deleterious or beneficial to an individual only makes sense in the context of environment. Thus whether or not a mutation is deleterious or beneficial to an idividual can change as the environment changes. Whether or not a mutation is deleterious or beneficial to a species depends on whether it increases the fitness of that lineage - something we cannot predict over the long term because we cannot predict how environment is going to change over the long term. - Safay 20:56, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
The biggest questions I have about this concept is are:
Also, the article says macroevolution is a big change in an organism -- do you really mean by that a change in a single generation from one species to another? If so, it's a straw man since scientists don't believe in that either.
I think these issues should be addressed in the article. -- Dmerrill
I'd like the concepts of microevolution and macroevolution better related to the debate over evolution. Moreover, I think they are best used as terms that define the debate, rather than concepts in themselves to be disputed.
The theory of evolution, if it is indeed scientifically sound (and almost no one here doubts that), should be able to stand on its own merits without you all feeling you must defend it at every point.
The various articles which present alternatives to evolution, however outlandish or zany they seem to you scienntists, require merely a link or two each to the accepted science.
-- Ed Poor
I agree that a discussion of how these concepts relate to evolutionary theory would be a good thing. But as I said before, I don't know this theory, so I can only ask questions, which imho is an important way to make an article better. -- Dmerrill
slrubenstein what was here before was more correct than what you replaced it with -- Please reintegrate the factual portion of what you placed here. In general please try to add content to an article instead of replacing it with your own views -- makes everything easier for everybody. :) -- maveric149
I revised the revert in a way that I believe keeps those parts Maveric149 consider accurate. Nevertheless, the earlier version was at times redundant and inconsistent. My goal was to continue ridding the article of inaccuracies while fixing the style. SR
From primates to humans? Are humans now something besides primates?
I still don't understand what microevolution is. How about:
In particular, I would like to understand the importance (if any) of microevolution within neo-Darwinism, i.e., standard evolutionary theory. Only after that would I even be interested in reading about what anti-evolutionists think -- despite my owen religious views. Ed Poor, Tuesday, June 11, 2002
I also do not know what more you want on the evolution/creation debate -- shouldn't that be a different article?
I propose that we combine the microevolution and macroevolution articles into one article. From what I've studied, there is a theory that macroevolution occurs by different mechanisms than microevolution. These terms only make sense within that theoretical framework. If someone believes that "macroevolution" and "microevolution" occur by the same mechanisms, then they don't bother to use those two terms...it's all just evolution to them.
Further, this is a real debate among real biologists. The creationists will latch onto and distort anything that they can; their views should just be a footnote of the article and not the meat of it. I'm studying this issue right now in one of my classes and will be happy to contribute more in a month or two after I've read everything that my professor has recommended. -- adam
I think I'm seeing the word evolution being used with two different meanings, and I think these meanings are sufficiently different that they should be highlighted rather than glossed over. They are NOT synonyms.
In sense #1, Creationists would clearly be wrong if they said "no evolution ever takes place", because there are readily observable genetic differences.
In sense #2, Creationists would not necessarily be wrong if they said "no evolution ever takes place", because there is no proof that natural forces alone are sufficient to cause new species to come into being.
Indeed the idea that natural forces alone are sufficient to cause new species to come into being is arguably not even a "scientific hypothesis", because there's no way to falsify it -- unless and until somebody succeeds in creating a new species in the laboratory (shades of Frankenstein!). -- Uncle Ed 14:04, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Graft, if I understand you right you are saying that one theory cannot be falsified, but that a second theory can.
Before I go off half-cocked, please confirm whether I have restated your position correctly. And BTW is this the position of biologists generally as well? -- Uncle Ed 16:50, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I agree that this discussion belongs on a page about the debate between creation and evolution. But here I am getting sucked in anyway. The confusion here stems from the difference between deductive and inductive reasoning. Biologists do not need to do experiments to show that speciation is an evolutionary process, because a preponderance of evidence supports an evolutionary explaination and no other; this is called inductive reasoning and is a valid scientific process, and is used especially often in evolutionary biology, geology, planetary science, astronomy, and cosmology. All the evidence supports a hypothesis that evolution is what gave us the diversity of life on earth. None of the evidence contradicts it. Safay 18:33, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Duncharris,
Why did you delete the example of the primrose plant?
Regards, -- Jason Gastrich 22:03, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I think the definition of macroevolution provided here is incorrect. We don't need the two terms macroevolution and microevolution if they do not refer to different processes. This article currently states that the processes underlying macroevo are the same, i.e., allele frequency changes. The Modern Synthesis does assert that a change in allele frequencies is the only kind of evolution that really occurs. This is what Eldridge and Gould and other supporters of the idea of macroevolutionary processes disagree with. Thus there is a disjunct in what evolutionary biologists agree upon as the scope of evolutionary process. (An aside: This disagreement is what the creationists latch on to and make wild claims about there being a crisis in evolutionary biology, that we don't understand macroevolutionary process and thus must invoke a creator.)
Macroevolution refers to processes that occur above the level of species. The Neo-Darwinists will assert that no such processes exist, and thus we truly don't need the two words micro- and macroevolution. The people who do support macroevolution will assert that it involves processes that cannot be explained through population genetics. Thus, in an article about macroevolution and microevolution, we should use the definition that the macroevolutionists use, and explain the existence of the controversy over the subject.
I think this further highlights the need to combine the two articles, macro- and microevolution.
What do you all think of this? If no one responds in a week I'm just going to go ahead and do it and see if that bears out.
Safay 06:52, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Why was my contribution on Micro/Macroevolution reversed? Macroevolution is a speculated hypothesis while Microevolution is a proven theory. Neither Macro nor Microevolution have enough evidence to be taken as a scientific law. And because Wikipedia allows later changes to be made to an article thne we should list micro and macroevolution as it is currently, theory and hypothesis. - Teofil Bartlomiej 20:41, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Your additions were inaccurate. You should not insert factually inaccurate material into Wikipedia articles. Please don't do that. Guettarda 21:09, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
This thread http://groups.google.com/group/talk.origins/browse_thread/thread/38df9a9a127281a8/cea310284f6d201c#cea310284f6d201c states that Micro Evolution occured in the Oxford English Dictionary is from 1911, citing the American Naturalist v. 45, p. 256. The first for "macro-evolution" is Dobzhansky's "Genetics & Origin of Species". Was Micro coined before Macro? TongueSpeaker 20:49, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
The author of phrase "ME" had a specific concept that he used "Micro Evolution" for as a technical description. Everybody seems to have their own defenition of the word such as "small changes", "change below the species level" etc. Imagine we all just have our own defenition for the technical jargon phrase "signal-to-noise ratio". It has a specific meaning which represents a concept and thus you can't just hijack the phrase and associate it with a different concept than what Shannon had in mind. The same logic extends to "Micro Evolution", everybody seemingly knows what it means but nobody even bothers to cite the author and what concept did he wish to convey with it. TongueSpeaker 11:21, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
How is Marcroevolution not Reductionist in that it is mostly, if not entirely, dependent upon Mircoevolution? Why is this supposed dichotomous distinction even trying to be postulated? -- Carlon 16:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC) To call Macroevolution "holistic" implies that there is some kind of "magic" not present in Microevolution that must happen for Macroevolution to be possible. In reality the difference is only one of degree: given enough time, Microevolution IS Macroevolution. There is nothing holistic going on; the whole is no more or less than the sum of its parts. It's like saying Macro-counting is holistic and Micro-counting is reductionist because we can observe the numbers between one and 10 but nobody's ever been observed to count to a trillion. 71.228.211.57 ( talk) 15:03, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
I am mildly astonished that Wikipedia even has this article.
"Evolution" is change in allele frequency over time in a breeding population. No more, no less. It is the unified field theory of biology, and it parsimoniously explains everything from antibiotic-resistant bacteria to the beak of the zebra finch to humanity's triumphant conquest of this planet.
"Microevolution" and "macroevolution" are shibboleths used by religious cranks who object to the philosophical implications of certain empirically verified facts from the fields of biology and zoology. Worse, they are casuistries, created to deceive the ignorant.
Is it too late for a VFD?
archival of anti-evolutionist commentary that doesn't work to improve article |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Is science not primarily about observation and reproducible results? If so, it seems microevolution fits the definition while macroevolution is more in the field of philosophy. We can observe small changes over a few generations. We cannot reproduce large scale changes that have been postulated to have occurred on a geologic time scale. Thucy ( talk) 23:57, 9 July 2009 (UTC) |
Dude, You are not summarizing the quote, you are in fact quoting it directly. Summary means that you give the gist of what the quote is saying. Your understanding of the quote is also a little off. Also, you keep creating a second section for "Usage in 1927" when it is completely unnecessary. Please stop. -- Woland ( talk) 17:43, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
...I study medicine and like to think I know my biology. To the best of my knowledge, there is no distinction between the process of "microevolution" and "macroevolution" in modern genetics. Isn't "macroevolution" simply a non-scientific term for "a lot of" microevolution. The biological process is the same. In Microevolution vs Macroevolution, Austin Cline explains this common misconception. Now, I might be missing something, but is it possible this article was created by those American "creationists" (or whatever they call themselves) trying to account for the variety of dog breeds? :P If so, an AfD might be a good idea. I imagine anything sensible can easily be included in the main Evolution article. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 09:59, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Right, had a look at Google... however, shouldn't it still be outlined that both terms are used to describe the same biological process but on a different scale? (Changes in allele frequencies essentially bring about large-scale changes in gene frequencies.) Just so we make it clear that it doesn't make sense to claim microevolution takes place while macroevolution doesn't. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 17:37, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Agreed, no sense creationist-proofing articles. Regards :) -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 18:01, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
The scientific term for that which you describe would be "Evolution that takes place normally but then stops for some unknown reason...ition" :). I can't begin to tell you how wrong that statement is... If you believe in what you describe, than you believe in the basic "mechanism" of evolution. If you believe in the basic mechanism of evolution, then you believe in evolution. What you're saying is "evolution takes place, but not too much of it". *sigh*... -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 22:04, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
"Mutating from a bird to a human"? Firstly, that never actually happened. Its nonsense to even write such a thing. You could have said "mutating from an ape-like common ancestor to a human", and it wouldn't sound so silly, would it? Changes take place generation by generation, simply stating the end result of uncounted millions and millions of years of natural selection is an "argument" only in biased eyes.
The strongest arguments for evolution are genetic, and they are almost never addressed by creationists. This is so for two main reasons. 1) Because the vast majority of them are not trying to seriously disprove evolution in the scientific community (which is almost impossible given the evidence), but are trying to mislead the general public which does not really understand more than the simplest genetics. 2) Because the vast majority of creationism advocates trying to "disprove" the theory of evolution are not even scientists at all (lawyers, theologians, teachers, etc.) and don't understand the matter themselves.
The "holes" in the theory of evolution have been compared to "holes in cheese" by the American Scientist. The holes exist, but saying that the cheese doesn't exist because of them is absurd. Creationists are people who believe unconditionally in things that have no scientific evidence whatsoever, but set impossible criteria of scientific proof for anything that contradicts that which they believe unconditionally.
I also recall another frequently quoted and interesting metaphor. Evolution compared to "walking". Microevolution = a walk to the kitchen, while macroevolution would be a walk to the north pole. Its the same thing. The only difference is timescale. --
DIREKTOR (
TALK) 13:12, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Microevolution cannot exist without macroevolution, since the timescale in question is simply too large, and macroevolution cannot exist without microevolution, since its "made-up" of the latter. (Damn! Now a creationist could quote me saying "macroevolution is made up", double damn! ;)) Its one and the same thing. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 13:44, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Ok, first of all, did you just say drepanocytosis is evolution? :) Or, for that matter, did you just say that genetically transmitted diseases are proof of the non-existence of speciation? This borders among the most incredible things I've ever heard... :D It would appear that the fundamental fallacy in your logic is that you believe all mutations are harmful? They are absolutely not. For example: if it weren't for beneficial mutations, Europe would not've survived the black plague. There are also very many modern-day observed cases of beneficial mutations that, if natural selection still took place in human society, would have allowed for significant beneficial changes to the human genome. However, most mutations are neither harmful or beneficial.
Now, let me explain what you're saying: what you're saying (basically) is that changes do take place, but that it is impossible for so many changes to take place that procreation can't occur between the ancestor species and the new species (sex :). That's speciation (a product of "macroevolution"). This makes no sense, whatsoever, since enough "changes" to organisms ("microevolution") invariably bring about the inability of procreation between them and the ancestor (Chihuahua and a Great Dane? :). At that point, genetic material between them can no longer be exchanged.
I'm not going to "argue" with you, there's nothing to argue about. Speciation has, in fact, been observed in empirical conditions and fully documented. There are quite a few observed instances of speciation, or evolution beyond the level of species, which takes place rather often in plants and lower lifeforms (bacteria especially). Now I know you probably believe "all points of view are equally valid" or whatnot ("we both firmly believe our points, and we can argue and neither budge..."), which is ok in politics, but in scientific discussions they are absolutely not. In scientific discussions, two views are almost never equal, the weight of actual evidence (amost) always supports one side or the other more predominantly. There are exceptions, but the very thought that this is one is laughable. There's nothing for it, this may seem "blunt" but the I am right (i.e. the scientific community is right), and you are blatantly wrong (i.e. fringe movements and christian fundamentalists are blatantly wrong). Also, only creationists "never budge" - because the bible never gets updated :) -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 10:06, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Looks like this article is about to become a a battleground for Truth peddlers. Semi-protection may be required. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 12:54, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Thank you DIREKTOR for using the talk page that is mannerly of you.
The way the paragraph read (not read) :-) earlier is clearly a point of view. I have contributed scientific peer reviewed articles to show that this is still debated. Yes evolutionist claim this, but there are hundreds of Scientists that indicate this is not accurate. To have a NPOV this par. should either be deleted or have both sides of an issue. In addition there are scientific organizations that do not accept the statement below, as I mentioned it is still debated. Old Statement in quote, "The attempt to differentiate between microevolution and macroevolution is considered to have no scientific basis by any mainstream scientific organization, including the American Association for the Advancement of Science." Not all scientific organizations accept that sweeping generalization. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] Berkely teaches there is a difference between micro and macro too. [6] Here one can find the other side of the coin. [7] Swiping dirt under the rug is not the way to get rid of it. Deal with it rather than delete it. Let the reader decide if it is valid or not. Our job is not to do the thinking for the person. 75.133.36.15 ( talk) 13:24, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
No one is doubting evolution. What I am doubting is the ability of this page to present accurate balanced info. It contains a POV which is not a neutral point. Macro and Micro is still debated. The truth is not afraid of a little contra argument. 75.133.36.15 ( talk) 18:10, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
I suppose experience can't be a teacher. I am sure you can't be hungry either but can only have hungry. Why the nit-picking? is there a word called personification? This just proves my point. How can one see beyond a wall when all they want to look at are the bricks, yet the window is right there! Is that my tail I am chasing? I am getting dizzy. The way the paragraph is stated is a POV. I am not saying that there is no evidence, I am saying that there is a growing scientific community that doubts that evidence. As such the article can/should mention that not all in the scientific community except what the article leads a person to believe that Micro and Macro are really the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.133.36.15 ( talk) 23:33, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Don't think Archaeopteryx was a sick bird since it would have died out. If your interested in the truth then you will have no problem reading this in the New York Times on this sick chicken. [11] 75.133.36.15 ( talk) 05:45, 27 November 2009 (UTC) CAUTION: Reading the above article might just help you understand that scientists debate the issues that this wiki article says are fact. I guess I will believe wiki over the scientists since only balanced NPOV pages are allow. And regardless of the facts, we will stick with our one sided opinion since...just the thought of... 75.133.36.15 ( talk) 05:52, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
Wait it is not a sick bird but a dinosaur. This in itself proes my point this all is debatable. [12] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.133.36.15 ( talk) 06:01, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
I notice the citation for no difference between micro and macro is talk origins. since when is this site regarded as 'scientific'? Ref ward ( talk) 21:43, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
then could we consider just saying "talk origins says this is misuse"? otherwise it could be seen as misleading Ref ward ( talk) 21:57, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to propose a rewrite of this paragraph on the basis that the description of the creationist definition of "microevolution" is considerably off the mark. Though admittedly, there is no clear consensus regarding these alternate definitions among creationists, I think what I propose is generally more representative. I would also like to highlight some of the miscommunication and confusion that has arisen from these alternate definitions, a problem which the current version not only fails to recognise, but is also directly subject to. 109.156.110.166 ( talk) 21:17, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
The one about the American Association for the Advancement of Science - it just links to their press release page, which no longer references what the article says. I briefly looked for a direct link but was unsuccessful Fcrick ( talk) 01:00, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
Why is the validly referenced definition for Microevolution that I sourced from Webster's New World College Dictionary being removed? I think you guys need to look at WP:VERIFY and WP:V before you remove a reference....-- Gniniv ( talk) 01:39, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
Are these good faith edits, or are you trying to suppress a neutral definition?-- Gniniv ( talk) 02:10, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
Gotcha! I realize that the other editors were acting in good faith, and I apologise, my comments were out of line....-- Gniniv ( talk) 02:35, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
I am fine if we include the "expert definition" mentioned above, the only reason I inserted one from Websters is there was either no reference on the claimed definitions (in the article) or the reference was to a talk website, not a peer reviewed publication...-- Gniniv ( talk) 02:38, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
I have changed the title of this discussion from Reference Vandal? to Referencing to remove the negative connation (I realize that editors were acting in good faith in removing my reference)..-- Gniniv ( talk) 02:49, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
I don't think that Talk Origins constitutes an "expert" source, isn't it a talk/discussion website? Considering that I am referencing from a established dictionary and am waiting until a better "peer reviewed source" can be found, I think my reference can stay (especially since I am not removing the talk origins reference to begin with...-- Gniniv ( talk) 02:49, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
No matter how many times a reference has been used, if it is from a non-accredited source (a talk/discussion/opinion blog) than it doesn't belong in Wikipedia as a reference for the official definition of a term (Maybe as a reference on the opinions about the term but not the "expert" definition)....-- Gniniv ( talk) 00:34, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
I have come to the conclusion through the efforts of a neutral third-party editor that dictionaries are not valid reference sources in this situation. However, I remain unconvinced that a "Talk Origins" blog is a valid source for a definition either. Any thoughts?-- Gniniv ( talk) 02:52, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
I am going to replace the current link with the Webster's definition until Talk Origins is replaced with a peer reviewed publication. It's a blog for crying out loud!--Gniniv ( talk) 05:45, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
I have never edited a page before or anything, but the very first line on the page says microevolution is "a change in gene frequency within a population over time." I am familiar with the citation associated with the quote, and I use the Berkeley page in my classroom. However, this is a misuse of the term and should be "a change in allele frequency within a population over time." It could also read "allele frequencies within a gene" or something like that, but gene frequency is technically incorrect. It may seem nit-picky, but the term gene gets misused often enough as it is. If someone that is a frequent editor agrees with me, please make the change. Thanks mralph — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.247.172.137 ( talk) 22:30, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
Greetings Mann Jess, I am following up on the last reverts on this section. You said you wanted to discuss the information. So what's on your mind? This section did not reflect the reference adequately on the American Association for the Advancement of Science since it did not talk about "no scientific basis for distinction" at all. It merely noted that microevolution eventually makes macroevolution. This is interpreting more into the citation than the citation allows. Furthermore, the whole first paragraph was erroneous. No citations were provided for those claims which make this paragraph too apologetic, not neutral enough, and not well supported. Also, it does not reflect adequately the views of creationists. For example,the AIG citation (which is a very popular creationist institution) flat out contradicts the claim that creationists even endorse the micro/macrevlution words in the first place. They clearly do believe in natural selection, speciation, and microevolution, however they interpret the macroevolution differently. Its a subtle difference, not a massive one that many actually imagine. They are also not "anti-evolution", they are, if anything, "non-macroevolutionists via purely natural processes". I think my edit was well sourced and that I balanced some of the claims. What can we do about this? I hope to hear from you soon. Ramos1990 ( talk) 07:31, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
Hey Dave Souza, good edit on the AAAS point. Yes I agree that the section needs more improvement since much of it has no citations. I will add a citation from NSCE on how microevolution is normally accepted creationists later today [ [15]]. It even notes the piece of information that a creationists have argued that a creationist came up with the concept of natural selection first (implying that natural selection is not mutually exclusive to "evolution" nor is it equivalent to it necessarily). What do you think? Obviously there is lots of overlap in terms of microevolution in all sides since creationists, just like anyone else, accepts processes and phenomena which are directly observable today. Interpretations and extrapolations of concepts (which are diverse) is what they seem to disagree with. If they are perceived as psudoscientific by some is irrelevant in this section since the section is about microevolution, which everyone accepts, and how it is perceived or used, not the likelihood of correctness of their other models, theories, or claims. I will see on how to make this section more neutral and more focused on the issue later on. Ramos1990 ( talk) 20:59, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
I saw your edits. They are good. The sources I was able to find were from the 80's, but 1 book citation I added was from 2009. I am not sure why this was not taken into account. In terms of the 80's citations, they are still relevant. If you have kept up with creationist literature, you will notice that not much has changed at the base (as is common in the history of many ideas). This could be seen in the AIG citation (which is a very big organization on this), which was much more recent. Furthermore, some of the references in the rest of the article are from the 80s. I don't think it would be much of an issue. The section looks much better and more reasonable with the recent additions and wording than it did a few days ago. On the side matter, in terms of: Blyth, you also mentioned Paley etc, and natural selection; this was merely to point out that creationists are not against these ideas in and of themselves nor were they against them from the very beginning. Many today seem to miss this and they do not make much of an effort to emphasize this point. A common misconception today is that many assume that creationists have ignored these or have disagreed with these ideas completely from the very beginning - which is absurd. Part of this is fueled by the popular belief in the "conflict thesis" which was debunked by historians of science the last century. Creationists obviously used these ideas for diverse conclusions in the past (including as a balance of lifeforms from too much deviation). As you noted, there is a very long history of conceptions on the diversification and limitations of creatures and there are deviants by degree to the Wallace-Darwinian theory (i.e Lamarck, Blyth, Lyell, St. Augustine, Aristotle, etc.). I agree with you that Darwin was the best at synthesizing the idea of natural selection (he coined the term) and made it into an abstract construct. Ramos1990 ( talk) 17:29, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
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