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WRT to the thing about popularity. I would have to say that Ralf Schumacher was 19 by the time his brother became WDC and Heidfeld also was a teenager by then. Can you back up your assertions that SChumacher specifically caused a boom in the skill level and talent pool of racing drivers. What about participation rates for young drivers. At the moment it implies he specifically causes more success for Germany at the highest level. He is not a racing coach nor does he run an F1 academy. He has definitely increased popular viewing, but has he increased grassroots participation? At the most we should note the grassroots increase. It is inapporporiate to claim that he is responsible for success of other elite drivers. Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 03:13, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
The removal of this section was deplorable, smelling or jingoism. Here's Vettel's words himself "In Germany, F1 stands for Michael Schumacher. What he did for the sport in Germany was fantastic and it was very good for all of us young drivers who came up the ladder. For sure he opened up some doors for all of us."
Ernham
18:10, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
I've just removed the comment "The same members that Schumacher brought to Ferrari from Benetton, however, had no success in creating a competitive racing team prior to the hiring of Schumacher." from the article.
This seems to cover Brawn and Byrne (explicitly) and Todt (implicitly - since it is not clear in the current wording that he arrived at Ferrari before Schumacher and recruited him to the team).
Looking at their biogs on www.grandprix.com we can see that:
Todt had a long and extremely successful career managing Peugeot Sport (2 world rally championships, 4 Paris-Dakars, 2 Le Mans 24 hours and 1 World Sportscar championship).
Ross Brawn had moderate success designing for Arrows in 1987 and 1988 - fourth place for Arrows is a pretty good result! He also designed the Jaguar XJR-14, which won the 1991 World Sportscar Championship (beating Schumi in a Sauber-Merc on the way!), was very competitive in IMSA racing in the States the next year and formed the basis of the TWR-Porsche which won a couple of Le Mans in the mid-1990s. (You'll have to take my word for the last two bits - I'm sure I can verify if anyone queries it).
Rory Byrne had some success at Benetton, who won a race most years up to 1994.
The removed sentence doesn't really seem to match the facts. Admittedly they hadn't achieved success on the scale that they subsequently would, but then, no-one has :) -- 4u1e 00:14, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
The Good Article criteria can be found here.
Going through one by one (in reverse order, cos I find it easier):
Images: Pass, in my view. Images are not a GA requirement, but if present must be appropriately tagged, as these are. There are improvements that could be made, however:
Stability: Fail, at present. Not surprising this, and will hopefully improve as we get further away from the current season. Nothing to worry about at present.
Neutral Point of view: See WP:NPOV. Fail I believe we have problems here, and would fail the article at GA on this one. Problems are mainly of assertion (i.e. asserting a particular point of view, rather than simply stating the facts) and in fairness of tone (i.e. facts may be stated, but are 'coloured' by the language around them). Some examples:
I'll come back and go through the other three criteria later. I'll emphasise again that this isn't a formal review for GA, just my take on how it would go. I do carry out GA reviews on other articles though, so hopefully I have some idea what I'm doing! :D Cheers. 4u1e 23 October 2006
Broad in coverage: Pass Includes family life and activity outside F1 - good.
Accurate and verifiable: Fail Variable. Some bits very well referenced. Others are sketchy - Benetton years, Most of the Ferrari years up to 2005 (which includes some quite contentious statements), Records, Most of the 'Controversy' section (again - contentious). There may also be a problem with the quality of some of the references. The reference for the rather um, bold statement that "the 2005 rules changes were entirely targetted to ending the domination of Ferrari and Schumacher" is a throwaway line in an unattributed (i.e. we don't know who wrote it) article from the Associated Press, not a noted authority on F1. -- 4u1e 06:15, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Well written: Fail Some changes needed per WP:MoS. See the automated comments from the Peer Review for these, here. A lot of these are quite quick to fix.
Not sure where to put this, but the balance of the piece is wrong. As many of us have noted, the 2006 season summary is much, much longer than the others - it probably still needs to be cut to half to one third the length - any material that can't be used here probably belongs in the individual race reports or the 2006 season summary. The controversy/sportsmanship/team orders sections are very long in relation to the rest of the piece as well and could do with editing down. Cheers 4u1e
With such a long career and many incidents, twists, turns, I feel that the article needs to be forked rather than simply chopped up with half the article thrown away. What are the logical ways of steamlining into components? Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 00:44, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I can see what is meant here, but think it will just be confusing for a reader new to the topic - it's not even discussed all that often in the specialist press. I think it is better to leave the lead simply to say 'has won more races etc etc' and then go into how this compares to others - including the win to race ratio - in the main text under 'records'. The lead is also getting a little long at 6 paras, so could do with trimming anyway. -- 4u1e 05:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Talking about helmets, I heard until 2002 he wore Bell helmet, he upset them and S.P.O.R.T.S. Europe about that deal with Schberth, i have got some extra info about this here. For all these who wants some extra info, I already added bits about the helmet he wore as I used to own a few Minichamp brochure which features them. Willirennen 12.50 24 Oct 2006
Although Schumacher is refered in the lead of the article as the first billionaire athlete, there is little reference about it in the text, only a few trivia stuff. Do you think there should be a section about this, his wealth, and publicity he's made just to show the impact he had as a sportsman?-- Serte 14:57, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Can I float a suggestion for this piece? A lot of its length is down to the 'framing structure' and to editorialising about the meaning of the various incidents. Can we pare it down to a single section under 'Controversy' (or similar) with brief factual accounts of:
Given that the 'getting a push' topic seems to have argued itself to a standstill - the current wording suggests that it's a non-issue - I suggest that it could be left out.
Does that fly as a suggestion - or am I going to get shot down in flames? (Retires to bomb shelter and pulls tin hat down over ears). 4u1e
Facts:
I'll do my best effort on making something out of this that satisfies guidelines. By the way, can youtube videos be used as a source?-- Serte 17:59, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Does anybody think any of this would be suitable (Hill's perspective):
Victoria Derbyshire: Damon, just remind us what happened between you and Schumacher in Australia.
Damon Hill: Em, well, we were racing, I didn’t, I wasn’t aware that Michael had actually gone off the road and damaged his car and so when I saw him coming back on the track I though he had just escaped again from another near spin. And so he was struggling to get up to speed and I went to overtake him and it’s pretty clear that he drove into me to prevent me from getting through and by virtue of that he won the world championship. But that was really sort the first big incident in his career but it sort of set the tone of his whole career really. Em, and what was slightly disappointing I think was that the, from time to time when things have happened it does appear that there has been slight favouritism towards those kind of, that kind of, or at least blind eyes turned to that kind of tactic.
Victoria Derbyshire: But did that show he was a cheat, or that he was desperate to win or he was just an extremely determined competitor and that’s what you need to be a world champion?
Damon Hill: Yeah, expect in Monaco this year it was concluded that he did actually do something deliberately to spoil the opportunity of Alonso to get to beat him to pole position, so he’s not only…, and there have been other incidents as well where the teams he’s been driving for have been had up for blatantly cheating, ignoring black flags, all those kind of things have been part of his career. Mark83 21:02, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
We were looking for a reference for 'many people consider'. Alan Henry's book 'Wheel to Wheel' contains the following: "many F1 insiders regarded the German as solely responsible for the collision which resolved the outcome of the 1994 World Championship" (p. 117) -- 4u1e 06:39, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Minor point: UK English or American English? We have both at present. I would vote for UK English, but technically we ought to check what was used in the first 'proper' version of the article and stick with that. 4u1e
I am not surprised this is a FORMER featured article candidate, some of the sections arevery badly structured and the use of the word he is over used. there are common use of brackets in the article although some are necessary for translations should be completly avoided here is an example from he article.
The penalty (for overtaking Alex Wurz under safety car on lap 43 of 60) should have been issued within 25 minutes but Ferrari were informed 6 minutes after the limit had expired
In this example the reason the penalty was issued should be explained before this point and not put in brackets.
The word he is over used and should be replaced with Schumacher, also the use of his first name in the main body of he articl should be avoided.
The biggest problem with this article is sentence structure and grammar.
Here is an example
The move, embarrassing for F1 fans and media, was done after the very last corner of the last lap of the Austrian Grand Prix. This led to a public outcry by spectators in the grandstands;on the podium a visibly embarrassed and bewildered Schumacher ushered Barrichello onto the top step in an attempt to calm the irate crowd.
First major grammatical error is the use of the semi-colon it must not be used any-where in the article except the pronounciation at the very beginning. The phrase 'embarrassing for F1 fans and media' should be better structed and should not be a statement on its own. a better structure would be to remove it completly from the section. The podium setion is also poorly structured as it is written as if the person is Schumacher, we do not know what he was thinking or the complete reasons for the decision to swap places on the podium. The section should be written by saying things such as the aftermarth of swapping places was revealed to try to calm the crowd a citation of this would also be required.
These are just a few points to improve the article grmmar and structure are the main points but citations are lacking in some areas as well so more are required as well.--
Lucy-marie
10:25, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
For terms like championship, driver's championship, constructors' championship, should we use capital letters or not as there is no standardize way at the moment. If we want to go for FA, we should standardize it --
Cyktsui
10:47, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Results table has recently been changed, but no longer matches the Key - could someone who knows more about the tables than I do confirm whether these changes match the WikiProject F1 standard? Cheers. 4u1e 16:07, 25 October 2006
There is a key?-- Lucy-marie 16:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Just above the table there's a link to click on. It's probably best to revert to the agreed colour scheme for the table, but possibly raise your ideas for changing the scheme at WP:F1.
I've also reverted your last change re 24 races etc (Sorry!). My logic is that the 24 races is an inclusive number up to the last race where you don't retire, i.e. Malaysia. What do you think? Cheers. 4u1e 16:14, 25 October 2006
ok thanks what do you think of the colour changes made to the grid?
I think that having it upto the malaysian gp implies he retired at the malaysian gp so saying brazil implies he retired at the brazilian gp. I also think that it is 23 not 24 races i may have miss counted though--
Lucy-marie
16:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Definitely 24 races (I counted three different ways and came up with the same result each time :-)). Hungary is race 1, Malaysia is race 24. The sentence involved is 'Most consecutive races finished without retirement: 24 races'.
Hungary to Malaysia are 'consecutive races finished without retirement'. Brazil cannot be included in that definition because he did retire there.
We could put 'inclusive' in the sentence if you feel it is really unclear that he did not retire in Malaysia (i.e. 'Hungary 2001 to Malaysia 2003 inclusive'), but I really don't think it's necessary. 4u1e 16:28, 25 October 2006 (I've been trying to get the above posted for the last few minutes, but you guys keep editing it!)
Removing the results table brings the article size down from 85 to 62 kilobytes. What about putting it in a template? That way it will not appear any differently but I think this would cut the article file size?? And if anybody listed it for deletion arguing it should be kept inside the article we could make the argument that it is a special circumstance (i.e. the amount of information on this page plus the fact that it's one of the largest driver results tables). Mark83 19:54, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Someone in the McLaren F1 page left a comment stating Michael Schumacher has a McLaren F1. Does anyone know this for sure, or has a source for this information? - g8or8de 12:29, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Is that part that in 2006 Monaco Grand Prix, Schumacher started at the back of the grid, but ended up finishing 5th relevant for sportsmanship?
Schumacher is the first German to win F1 world championship. Jochen Rindt was Austrian.
The sentance reads that he's won nearly all the Grand Prixs he's started in, yes I know and agree with because of the Turkish GP. But, unless I'm mistaken, you reverted a correct statement that he didn't win the South African GP, and he's started that race twice! See 1992 South African Grand Prix and 1993 South African Grand Prix, so it is indeed, correct.-- Skully Collins 12:47, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Don't know if anyone's aiming for Good Article or Featured Article ststus for this page, but if so you'll need to lose the trivia section, which is normally viewed as being 'un-encyclopaedic' by reviewers. Most of it could either be incorporated into the text or lost. The very first bullet would make an excellent way of addressing the 'greatest' issue by the way. Instead of trying to state that he is the greatest (unverifiable!) why not state in the lead that he was voted as such in a BBC poll, which is a verifiable statement? Just some suggestions, anyway.
All those cites are supposed to go to the official formula one website biography, instead the link back and forth between the refrence section and the spot they are cited. The actual source is missing, basically, but the linking works. http://www.formula1.com/archive/halloffame/driver/7.html that's the source. Ernham 20:13, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
This one: "Schumacher currently holds almost every record in Formula One, including those for most drivers' championships, race victories, fastest laps, pole positions, and most races won in a single season. He is the first Formula One driver to win at every track he has started on at least once, starting from his first world championship title year(excluding the recently introduced Turkish GP). He is the world's first billionaire athlete, with an estimated yearly salary over 100 million dollars, tens of millions of which he donates to humanitarian causes.[1]" Particularly the first two-thirds of it. Instead, adding "see below link" after the "holds almost every record" comment. i think it's excessive, given we have a whole section devoted to summarizing many of those records. No need to dwell on it. Then add some more stuff to the intro found in the trivia section perhaps. Just discussing it now, I don't hvae time to do muhc at the moment. Thoughts? Ernham 20:45, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
After the end of the championship, I believe we should review and work a lot on this article and try to make it a FA. We have the example of Damon Hill, who's also a (former) Formula 1 driver and it's a FA now. I have some ideas.
Add more ideas, discuss these and let's prepare to work? -- Serte 12:00, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
In Peer Review! See Wikipedia:Peer review/Michael Schumacher/archive2-- Serte 14:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
The current words suggest that benetton did not have active suspension, automatic gearbox etc in 1993. While this was true in 1992, in 93 my recollection is that Benetton had as much technology as anyone else in the pitlane - even including four wheel steer. I will try to find a ref, but I believe the current words are wrong. 4u1e 12:59, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
OK, ref found here: [3]. I have cut off the end of the relevant sentence, leaving the contention that the Benetton was inferior, but removing the implication that it did not have the 'whistles and bells' employed by Williams and McLaren. 4u1e (sorry - can't sign in!)
I think the same argument will also be found to apply to the traction and launch control that have been added - apart from anything else, their appearance in Benetton's software in 1994 when illegal (whether used or not!) would be really weird if they weren't used in 1993! Anyway,I'll look for more references. -- 4u1e 06:29, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Allowing for the shortfalls of the internet ;-), see this forum page from AtlasF1 (frequented by a pretty knowledgeable crowd, including a few published authors and people from the Industry): [4] (see post 27 on the first page). The conversation wasn't centered around Schumacher, but the incidental stuff indicates that probably Benetton didn't have TC at the start of the year in races, but did by the end. This is of course not evidence and ultimately is no more use in referencing this part than my, Skully's or Ernham's recollections - it's a useful pointer to what the answer might be though. If correct, it also leaves the question of when in the year it was introduced, which requires a solid ref to back it up.
The suggested timing also matches with the info from this bio of Tad Czapski - I assume this is the guy you were thinking of Ernham? Pretty good recollection, if so! It says Czapski (great name!) was hired in Autumn of 1992 "to work on Benetton's advanced electronics systems which included active suspension, automatic gearboxes, ABS and traction control. He was responsible for control systems in the Benetton-Ford B193 transmission." - certainly possible that it was introduced sometime during 1993 on that basis. Annoyingly the bio is ambiguous about whether the technology was actually used on the race cars, though. 4u1e. 16 October 12:30 ish.
>> Nah. This is was a couple years after schuamcher left benneton and they were in the depths of a major slump.
>> Was it really? Hmm. I don't remember dates but i always recalled the Brtish GP being in july-ish.
>> Yep. The williams vehicles were far better than everyone elses, however.
>> TWR? Those are huge leaps for a single year, man...
Ernham 16:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I still maintain that evidence is the thing, though! Cheers. 4u1e
I guess I need the following explaining to me, because I think it contradicts itself, and I think it needs deleting:
He is the first Formula One driver to win at every track he has started on at least once, starting from his first world championship title year (excluding the recently introduced Turkish GP).
He hasn't won the Turkish GP, and thus hasn't won every track he's started on. Apathetic 07:27, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, no one's objected. I've deleted the sentence. I could have replaced it with something like "Has won on the majority of circuits that he has competed on", but thought that rather weak, and anyway I think I saw a comment round here somewhere that there were too many records mentioned in the lead. Just to reiterate the logic - too many caveats in the statement to say 'is the first to...'. The caveats are 1. since winning the drivers championship, 2. except Turkey,which is recent and 3. except Estoril, where he has raced, but not won since winning the drivers championship. -- 4u1e 21:26, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Adding this, since there seems to be so much misinformation and speculation being spread in these sections, as well as complete NPOV nonsense, even from a mod?? Crazy. Discuss any substantive changes you thik need to occur to the sections here first Ernham 03:17, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 05:02, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
>>my comment
>>Is he called the "rainmaster"? Yes. Note that in the intro this is talked about, yet the article doesn't have too many demonstrations of why he earned it, so i thought it was a good idea to bring it back up. Did he perform incredibly well under wet conditions? yes he did. I don't see too much POV there, but I **could** see removing it and then demonstrating how well he did by facts. Gee, as a matter of fact, I DID JUST THAT-- you deleted it. (see below)
>>This was a mistake; it was the guy below you in the edit history. Sorry. You dind't add that.
>>Was Alonso losing time or were other people gaining time in relation to current track conditions? Clearly you take a POV stance. The point is, however, you deleted an important section of qualifying, yet you add this. And what is this? PURE SPECULATION. You remove pure facts that apparently you dind't "like", for pure speculation you apparently "liked". Sure, it seems like the case it was his tires, but you don't KNOW that; you speculate. He said in the press conference that it was NOT A MISTAKE TO changed tires. Sure, they slowed him down, but he said he HAD to change tires. Why? Because one side was completely bald! Why were they bald? Because he was racing so aggresively the first 12 laps! His teamate didn't have to change, why? His tires weren't balding! He was slowing down the field to supposrt Alonso! Hello? Alonso's mistake was driving too aggresively, and he is well known for being to hard on his tires.
>>Yes, you can essentially block the whole or almost the whole track, unless you risk smashing into someone on the next corner. you could have changed the wording a little bit, mentioning their unorthodox blocking method to some degree. Instead you compeltely delete it. gee, go figure.
>>Top 12, top 12 cars. THAT WAS THE REASON FOR THE MASSA COMPARSSION WAS GIVEN! He has essentially the same car/support/etc. No if ands or buts there. He is a perfect xomparisson for schumacher because of that. It was SHOWING how well Schumacher did given the circumstances he was in(and are you saying the "minnows" disproporionately use bridgestones??), see above if you have forgotten about "point one" above. This is total nonsense.
>>No he didn't. Massa did next to nothing in that race, even after their was a dry racing line about 2/3s into the race. He kept spinning out and going off the track on the corners, all the way up to his retirement. did you even watch it?
>>Umm, that's not what I recall. I don't recall him being aided by any retirements. And when he was finally in 3rd, the lead was about 8 seconds from him.
>>Maybe because it was obvious? Maybe because the commentators(at least the ones here) all noted such? Maybe--mostly just maybe-- because in the press conference he said PRECISELY THAT if you bothered to watch it! He didn't say conservatively, but he said "Taking it easy". >> Ernham 06:08, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Adding this, since there seems to be so much misinformation and speculation being spread in these sections, as well as complete NPOV nonsense, even from a mod?? Crazy. Discuss any substantive changes you thik need to occur to the sections here first. Ernham 03:18, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
When did I insert the word "sunny" into Shanghai? Can you substantiate your allegations? [6] nothing has been deleted/censored from the Schumacher article. Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 05:09, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I've been working here and there, giving sugestions on this article to make it FA, checking it, but I don't know what happened. Is is just me, or the 2006 section isn't NPOV at all right now? And why delete valid references just as those for the formula1.com when you can leave it there? I don't know what happened but this is definately not a step forward no Featured Article status...-- Serte 18:15, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to try to significantly trim this down to a approximately 4-5, maybe a little more on races that had controversial events, sentences per race, as opposed to the current, which ranges from 4-5 to 50+ sentences. Heh. If you don't like that I gutted/changed something, post exactly what was removed and why you think it deserves to be incorporated in the article. The section should be written in relation to schumacher. Outstanding, good or bad, events should be noted if they directly relate to Schumacher, but not overly dwelt on. So post exactly what was removed and your arguments for why it should be included, keeping in mind space is at a premium. Ernham 21:12, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
The incredibly anti-schumacher attacks that are continuously vomited up en masse by significant portions of the English media is disturbing both to me as a forumla one fan and doubly disturbing to me as a citizen of the world when I hear this coming from public scources, such as the BBC. This venomous assault on Schumacher has been noted by other journalists as well, and I think a section covering this unique phenomenon is rather appropriate given the commonality and magnitude of this assault throughout schumachers soon-to-be ending career. More often than not, Schumacher is called "the German", and I've yet to hear a single English broadcaster actually pronounce his name right, yet the English commentators elsewhere go to great lenghts to pronounce even extremely odd Africa names correctly in the case footballers and the like. The stereotypical article such as these usually includes jingoism, grotesque pictures/caricatures of schumacher making some kind of non-normal facial experession, hypocrisy, and what seems to be outright ignorance of facts/reality of a given situation. A motor sports>commentator/journalist summed it up pretty well:
"I am beginning to understand the primary reason for all the sad Schumacher bashing that hits the press and online media. Michael Schumacher is not English and he certainly does not drive for an English team and for a sport that has its heart in England, it looks unlikely that he will ever be a complete hero with the men who wield their pen more often than the German wield's his steering wheel.
It is a pity that more and more viewers and people all over the world listen and read about how Schumy is hesitant to go on a all out battle with other drivers on the track rather than in the pit lane. The commentators are all English, the authors are all English; it is as if to say that one needs an Italian writer to get some credible story on the stunning performances that Ferrari and its ace driver have put in this year." [7] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ernham ( talk • contribs)
As for blogger vs. commentator; The quote you gave seems to be from here [9] by Vinesh V Nair, who is described elsewhere as a blogger. I repeat that it is one of the worst pieces of journalism I've read in a long time. He talks about the savaging Schumacher gets in the British press yet fails to give even a single example. Ernham, spare you? Spare you what? The proof that what you said about the BBC is wrong? I assume you're talking about tabloid press, in which case can I give you some advice? You're looking in the wrong place for intelligent commentary of F1. If you want to read British analysis of F1 please stick to F1 Racing or the excellent coverage in most of the quality papers. Mark83 13:09, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
75% of the sportmanship section is filled with FIA and their various associates, such as stewards, incompotence, having little to nothing to do with the supposed sportsmanship of Schumahcer.
This entire section, essentially:
"In 1998 season, Schumacher created controversy by winning the British GP in the pit lane. He was issued a 10s stop-and-go penalty for overtaking during the Safety Car laps. Knowing that a conventional in-stop-out penalty would lose him the race to championship contender Mika Häkkinen, the team delayed him going into the pit for the penalty the allowed number of laps (3) and only served the penalty after the end of the race, thus avoided the slow out lap from the pit that would have caused him to lose the race. However, because the stewards had incorrectly issued the penalty Schumacher escaped punishment as the stewards later rescinded the penalty. The penalty (for overtaking Alex Wurz under safety car on lap 43 of 60) should have been issued within 25 minutes but Ferrari were informed 6 minutes after the limit had expired. The handwritten notification was also unclear as to which penalty was actually being issued: a 10s stop/go, or 10 seconds added to Schumacher's race time (a penalty which could only be used to punish an infraction in the last 12 laps).[19] As a result the three stewards involved handed in their licences at an extraordinary meeting of the FIA World Council.[20]
In 2003 European Grand Prix, Schumacher was helped back to the track by marshals when he ended up high-sided on the kerb after a spin. Many fans falsely believed that this was illegal, as drivers may not receive outside assistance to get back on the track. However, an exception is made if a car is in a dangerous position, and the FIA judged that this was indeed the case. Schumacher's critics complained of a double-standard, which they believe, again falsely, was substantiated by the marshals' refusal to aid Fernando Alonso in the 2004 Italian Grand Prix when he was in a similar situation. However, the rules for this situation had changed as the exception in the 2003 rules had been removed in the 2004 version. Schumacher also received a push from the marshals in the 2005 Australian Grand Prix, although he retired anyway due to suspension damage after driving back to the pits. However, Nick Heidfeld, who was involved in the same incident, received no help from the marshals and had to retire. However, receiving a push from marshals when a car is in a dangerous situation is hardly a unique or even rare thing. A notable example, for instance, is Riccardo Patrese, who won the 1982 Monaco Grand Prix having received a push from the marshals after a spin on the penultimate lap." Ernham 03:52, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Ernham 14:37, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
The sentence should be as informative as possible. The links to other people who helped turn the team around into a winning team are useful to people wanting to know more. The reference is absolutely necessary; references are Wikipedia policy. The more informative sentence with the links to to other team members and a reference should stay. ~ ONUnicorn ( Talk / Contribs) 15:22, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm not happy with the whole end of the sentence "turning this once struggling team into the most winning Formula One team in history". This suggests Ferrari had never won a thing but Schumacher, Brawn etc. had turned it into the most successful F1 team. In reality they made a once great team great again. Mark83 20:22, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't have time to put this in now, but the following from The Times (UK), 11/9/06, p. 79, has info on his nearest rival for some of his records, quite interesting if it can be included, but maybe need a separate article for his records because this is getting quite lengthy. This article can also be found here http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,5923-2352113_2,00.html
SIMPLY THE BEST
Michael Schumacher’s career records make him far and away the most successful driver in Formula One history
Schumacher is the only driver to have finished an entire season on the podium (2002) and holds the record for the most successive races in the points with 24 (2001-2003) and most successive podium finishes with 19(2001-2002)
Schumacher also holds the record for the biggest winning points margin in a season with 67 in 2002, the year in which he became the fastest to win the title when he was crowned with six races to spare
With Rubens Barrichello, Schumacher holds the record for the most one-two finishes of any pairing in Formula One history with 24 between 2000-2005
Edward Gorman
Other records
FASTEST RACE LAPS
Michael Schumacher 75
Alain Prost 41 2nd
HAT-TRICKS (pole, win, fastest lap)
Michael Schumacher 22
Jim Clark 11 2nd
PODIUM FINISHES
Michael Schumacher 153
Alain Prost 106 2nd
TOTAL CAREER POINTS
Michael Schumacher 1,354
Alain Prost 768.5 2nd
WINS FROM POLE
Michael Schumacher 40
Ayrton Senna 29 2nd
POLE POSITIONS
Michael Schumacher 68
Ayrton Senna 65 2nd
GRAND PRIX WINS
Michael Schumacher 90
Alain Prost 51 2nd
DRIVERS’ CHAMPIONSHIPS
Michael Schumacher 7
Juan Manuel Fangio 5 2nd place
WINS IN A SEASON
Michael Schumacher, 2004 13
2002 11
1995, 2000, 2001 9
Nigel Mansell 9 2nd
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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WRT to the thing about popularity. I would have to say that Ralf Schumacher was 19 by the time his brother became WDC and Heidfeld also was a teenager by then. Can you back up your assertions that SChumacher specifically caused a boom in the skill level and talent pool of racing drivers. What about participation rates for young drivers. At the moment it implies he specifically causes more success for Germany at the highest level. He is not a racing coach nor does he run an F1 academy. He has definitely increased popular viewing, but has he increased grassroots participation? At the most we should note the grassroots increase. It is inapporporiate to claim that he is responsible for success of other elite drivers. Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 03:13, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
The removal of this section was deplorable, smelling or jingoism. Here's Vettel's words himself "In Germany, F1 stands for Michael Schumacher. What he did for the sport in Germany was fantastic and it was very good for all of us young drivers who came up the ladder. For sure he opened up some doors for all of us."
Ernham
18:10, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
I've just removed the comment "The same members that Schumacher brought to Ferrari from Benetton, however, had no success in creating a competitive racing team prior to the hiring of Schumacher." from the article.
This seems to cover Brawn and Byrne (explicitly) and Todt (implicitly - since it is not clear in the current wording that he arrived at Ferrari before Schumacher and recruited him to the team).
Looking at their biogs on www.grandprix.com we can see that:
Todt had a long and extremely successful career managing Peugeot Sport (2 world rally championships, 4 Paris-Dakars, 2 Le Mans 24 hours and 1 World Sportscar championship).
Ross Brawn had moderate success designing for Arrows in 1987 and 1988 - fourth place for Arrows is a pretty good result! He also designed the Jaguar XJR-14, which won the 1991 World Sportscar Championship (beating Schumi in a Sauber-Merc on the way!), was very competitive in IMSA racing in the States the next year and formed the basis of the TWR-Porsche which won a couple of Le Mans in the mid-1990s. (You'll have to take my word for the last two bits - I'm sure I can verify if anyone queries it).
Rory Byrne had some success at Benetton, who won a race most years up to 1994.
The removed sentence doesn't really seem to match the facts. Admittedly they hadn't achieved success on the scale that they subsequently would, but then, no-one has :) -- 4u1e 00:14, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
The Good Article criteria can be found here.
Going through one by one (in reverse order, cos I find it easier):
Images: Pass, in my view. Images are not a GA requirement, but if present must be appropriately tagged, as these are. There are improvements that could be made, however:
Stability: Fail, at present. Not surprising this, and will hopefully improve as we get further away from the current season. Nothing to worry about at present.
Neutral Point of view: See WP:NPOV. Fail I believe we have problems here, and would fail the article at GA on this one. Problems are mainly of assertion (i.e. asserting a particular point of view, rather than simply stating the facts) and in fairness of tone (i.e. facts may be stated, but are 'coloured' by the language around them). Some examples:
I'll come back and go through the other three criteria later. I'll emphasise again that this isn't a formal review for GA, just my take on how it would go. I do carry out GA reviews on other articles though, so hopefully I have some idea what I'm doing! :D Cheers. 4u1e 23 October 2006
Broad in coverage: Pass Includes family life and activity outside F1 - good.
Accurate and verifiable: Fail Variable. Some bits very well referenced. Others are sketchy - Benetton years, Most of the Ferrari years up to 2005 (which includes some quite contentious statements), Records, Most of the 'Controversy' section (again - contentious). There may also be a problem with the quality of some of the references. The reference for the rather um, bold statement that "the 2005 rules changes were entirely targetted to ending the domination of Ferrari and Schumacher" is a throwaway line in an unattributed (i.e. we don't know who wrote it) article from the Associated Press, not a noted authority on F1. -- 4u1e 06:15, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Well written: Fail Some changes needed per WP:MoS. See the automated comments from the Peer Review for these, here. A lot of these are quite quick to fix.
Not sure where to put this, but the balance of the piece is wrong. As many of us have noted, the 2006 season summary is much, much longer than the others - it probably still needs to be cut to half to one third the length - any material that can't be used here probably belongs in the individual race reports or the 2006 season summary. The controversy/sportsmanship/team orders sections are very long in relation to the rest of the piece as well and could do with editing down. Cheers 4u1e
With such a long career and many incidents, twists, turns, I feel that the article needs to be forked rather than simply chopped up with half the article thrown away. What are the logical ways of steamlining into components? Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 00:44, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I can see what is meant here, but think it will just be confusing for a reader new to the topic - it's not even discussed all that often in the specialist press. I think it is better to leave the lead simply to say 'has won more races etc etc' and then go into how this compares to others - including the win to race ratio - in the main text under 'records'. The lead is also getting a little long at 6 paras, so could do with trimming anyway. -- 4u1e 05:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Talking about helmets, I heard until 2002 he wore Bell helmet, he upset them and S.P.O.R.T.S. Europe about that deal with Schberth, i have got some extra info about this here. For all these who wants some extra info, I already added bits about the helmet he wore as I used to own a few Minichamp brochure which features them. Willirennen 12.50 24 Oct 2006
Although Schumacher is refered in the lead of the article as the first billionaire athlete, there is little reference about it in the text, only a few trivia stuff. Do you think there should be a section about this, his wealth, and publicity he's made just to show the impact he had as a sportsman?-- Serte 14:57, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Can I float a suggestion for this piece? A lot of its length is down to the 'framing structure' and to editorialising about the meaning of the various incidents. Can we pare it down to a single section under 'Controversy' (or similar) with brief factual accounts of:
Given that the 'getting a push' topic seems to have argued itself to a standstill - the current wording suggests that it's a non-issue - I suggest that it could be left out.
Does that fly as a suggestion - or am I going to get shot down in flames? (Retires to bomb shelter and pulls tin hat down over ears). 4u1e
Facts:
I'll do my best effort on making something out of this that satisfies guidelines. By the way, can youtube videos be used as a source?-- Serte 17:59, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Does anybody think any of this would be suitable (Hill's perspective):
Victoria Derbyshire: Damon, just remind us what happened between you and Schumacher in Australia.
Damon Hill: Em, well, we were racing, I didn’t, I wasn’t aware that Michael had actually gone off the road and damaged his car and so when I saw him coming back on the track I though he had just escaped again from another near spin. And so he was struggling to get up to speed and I went to overtake him and it’s pretty clear that he drove into me to prevent me from getting through and by virtue of that he won the world championship. But that was really sort the first big incident in his career but it sort of set the tone of his whole career really. Em, and what was slightly disappointing I think was that the, from time to time when things have happened it does appear that there has been slight favouritism towards those kind of, that kind of, or at least blind eyes turned to that kind of tactic.
Victoria Derbyshire: But did that show he was a cheat, or that he was desperate to win or he was just an extremely determined competitor and that’s what you need to be a world champion?
Damon Hill: Yeah, expect in Monaco this year it was concluded that he did actually do something deliberately to spoil the opportunity of Alonso to get to beat him to pole position, so he’s not only…, and there have been other incidents as well where the teams he’s been driving for have been had up for blatantly cheating, ignoring black flags, all those kind of things have been part of his career. Mark83 21:02, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
We were looking for a reference for 'many people consider'. Alan Henry's book 'Wheel to Wheel' contains the following: "many F1 insiders regarded the German as solely responsible for the collision which resolved the outcome of the 1994 World Championship" (p. 117) -- 4u1e 06:39, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Minor point: UK English or American English? We have both at present. I would vote for UK English, but technically we ought to check what was used in the first 'proper' version of the article and stick with that. 4u1e
I am not surprised this is a FORMER featured article candidate, some of the sections arevery badly structured and the use of the word he is over used. there are common use of brackets in the article although some are necessary for translations should be completly avoided here is an example from he article.
The penalty (for overtaking Alex Wurz under safety car on lap 43 of 60) should have been issued within 25 minutes but Ferrari were informed 6 minutes after the limit had expired
In this example the reason the penalty was issued should be explained before this point and not put in brackets.
The word he is over used and should be replaced with Schumacher, also the use of his first name in the main body of he articl should be avoided.
The biggest problem with this article is sentence structure and grammar.
Here is an example
The move, embarrassing for F1 fans and media, was done after the very last corner of the last lap of the Austrian Grand Prix. This led to a public outcry by spectators in the grandstands;on the podium a visibly embarrassed and bewildered Schumacher ushered Barrichello onto the top step in an attempt to calm the irate crowd.
First major grammatical error is the use of the semi-colon it must not be used any-where in the article except the pronounciation at the very beginning. The phrase 'embarrassing for F1 fans and media' should be better structed and should not be a statement on its own. a better structure would be to remove it completly from the section. The podium setion is also poorly structured as it is written as if the person is Schumacher, we do not know what he was thinking or the complete reasons for the decision to swap places on the podium. The section should be written by saying things such as the aftermarth of swapping places was revealed to try to calm the crowd a citation of this would also be required.
These are just a few points to improve the article grmmar and structure are the main points but citations are lacking in some areas as well so more are required as well.--
Lucy-marie
10:25, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
For terms like championship, driver's championship, constructors' championship, should we use capital letters or not as there is no standardize way at the moment. If we want to go for FA, we should standardize it --
Cyktsui
10:47, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Results table has recently been changed, but no longer matches the Key - could someone who knows more about the tables than I do confirm whether these changes match the WikiProject F1 standard? Cheers. 4u1e 16:07, 25 October 2006
There is a key?-- Lucy-marie 16:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Just above the table there's a link to click on. It's probably best to revert to the agreed colour scheme for the table, but possibly raise your ideas for changing the scheme at WP:F1.
I've also reverted your last change re 24 races etc (Sorry!). My logic is that the 24 races is an inclusive number up to the last race where you don't retire, i.e. Malaysia. What do you think? Cheers. 4u1e 16:14, 25 October 2006
ok thanks what do you think of the colour changes made to the grid?
I think that having it upto the malaysian gp implies he retired at the malaysian gp so saying brazil implies he retired at the brazilian gp. I also think that it is 23 not 24 races i may have miss counted though--
Lucy-marie
16:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Definitely 24 races (I counted three different ways and came up with the same result each time :-)). Hungary is race 1, Malaysia is race 24. The sentence involved is 'Most consecutive races finished without retirement: 24 races'.
Hungary to Malaysia are 'consecutive races finished without retirement'. Brazil cannot be included in that definition because he did retire there.
We could put 'inclusive' in the sentence if you feel it is really unclear that he did not retire in Malaysia (i.e. 'Hungary 2001 to Malaysia 2003 inclusive'), but I really don't think it's necessary. 4u1e 16:28, 25 October 2006 (I've been trying to get the above posted for the last few minutes, but you guys keep editing it!)
Removing the results table brings the article size down from 85 to 62 kilobytes. What about putting it in a template? That way it will not appear any differently but I think this would cut the article file size?? And if anybody listed it for deletion arguing it should be kept inside the article we could make the argument that it is a special circumstance (i.e. the amount of information on this page plus the fact that it's one of the largest driver results tables). Mark83 19:54, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Someone in the McLaren F1 page left a comment stating Michael Schumacher has a McLaren F1. Does anyone know this for sure, or has a source for this information? - g8or8de 12:29, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Is that part that in 2006 Monaco Grand Prix, Schumacher started at the back of the grid, but ended up finishing 5th relevant for sportsmanship?
Schumacher is the first German to win F1 world championship. Jochen Rindt was Austrian.
The sentance reads that he's won nearly all the Grand Prixs he's started in, yes I know and agree with because of the Turkish GP. But, unless I'm mistaken, you reverted a correct statement that he didn't win the South African GP, and he's started that race twice! See 1992 South African Grand Prix and 1993 South African Grand Prix, so it is indeed, correct.-- Skully Collins 12:47, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Don't know if anyone's aiming for Good Article or Featured Article ststus for this page, but if so you'll need to lose the trivia section, which is normally viewed as being 'un-encyclopaedic' by reviewers. Most of it could either be incorporated into the text or lost. The very first bullet would make an excellent way of addressing the 'greatest' issue by the way. Instead of trying to state that he is the greatest (unverifiable!) why not state in the lead that he was voted as such in a BBC poll, which is a verifiable statement? Just some suggestions, anyway.
All those cites are supposed to go to the official formula one website biography, instead the link back and forth between the refrence section and the spot they are cited. The actual source is missing, basically, but the linking works. http://www.formula1.com/archive/halloffame/driver/7.html that's the source. Ernham 20:13, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
This one: "Schumacher currently holds almost every record in Formula One, including those for most drivers' championships, race victories, fastest laps, pole positions, and most races won in a single season. He is the first Formula One driver to win at every track he has started on at least once, starting from his first world championship title year(excluding the recently introduced Turkish GP). He is the world's first billionaire athlete, with an estimated yearly salary over 100 million dollars, tens of millions of which he donates to humanitarian causes.[1]" Particularly the first two-thirds of it. Instead, adding "see below link" after the "holds almost every record" comment. i think it's excessive, given we have a whole section devoted to summarizing many of those records. No need to dwell on it. Then add some more stuff to the intro found in the trivia section perhaps. Just discussing it now, I don't hvae time to do muhc at the moment. Thoughts? Ernham 20:45, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
After the end of the championship, I believe we should review and work a lot on this article and try to make it a FA. We have the example of Damon Hill, who's also a (former) Formula 1 driver and it's a FA now. I have some ideas.
Add more ideas, discuss these and let's prepare to work? -- Serte 12:00, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
In Peer Review! See Wikipedia:Peer review/Michael Schumacher/archive2-- Serte 14:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
The current words suggest that benetton did not have active suspension, automatic gearbox etc in 1993. While this was true in 1992, in 93 my recollection is that Benetton had as much technology as anyone else in the pitlane - even including four wheel steer. I will try to find a ref, but I believe the current words are wrong. 4u1e 12:59, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
OK, ref found here: [3]. I have cut off the end of the relevant sentence, leaving the contention that the Benetton was inferior, but removing the implication that it did not have the 'whistles and bells' employed by Williams and McLaren. 4u1e (sorry - can't sign in!)
I think the same argument will also be found to apply to the traction and launch control that have been added - apart from anything else, their appearance in Benetton's software in 1994 when illegal (whether used or not!) would be really weird if they weren't used in 1993! Anyway,I'll look for more references. -- 4u1e 06:29, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Allowing for the shortfalls of the internet ;-), see this forum page from AtlasF1 (frequented by a pretty knowledgeable crowd, including a few published authors and people from the Industry): [4] (see post 27 on the first page). The conversation wasn't centered around Schumacher, but the incidental stuff indicates that probably Benetton didn't have TC at the start of the year in races, but did by the end. This is of course not evidence and ultimately is no more use in referencing this part than my, Skully's or Ernham's recollections - it's a useful pointer to what the answer might be though. If correct, it also leaves the question of when in the year it was introduced, which requires a solid ref to back it up.
The suggested timing also matches with the info from this bio of Tad Czapski - I assume this is the guy you were thinking of Ernham? Pretty good recollection, if so! It says Czapski (great name!) was hired in Autumn of 1992 "to work on Benetton's advanced electronics systems which included active suspension, automatic gearboxes, ABS and traction control. He was responsible for control systems in the Benetton-Ford B193 transmission." - certainly possible that it was introduced sometime during 1993 on that basis. Annoyingly the bio is ambiguous about whether the technology was actually used on the race cars, though. 4u1e. 16 October 12:30 ish.
>> Nah. This is was a couple years after schuamcher left benneton and they were in the depths of a major slump.
>> Was it really? Hmm. I don't remember dates but i always recalled the Brtish GP being in july-ish.
>> Yep. The williams vehicles were far better than everyone elses, however.
>> TWR? Those are huge leaps for a single year, man...
Ernham 16:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I still maintain that evidence is the thing, though! Cheers. 4u1e
I guess I need the following explaining to me, because I think it contradicts itself, and I think it needs deleting:
He is the first Formula One driver to win at every track he has started on at least once, starting from his first world championship title year (excluding the recently introduced Turkish GP).
He hasn't won the Turkish GP, and thus hasn't won every track he's started on. Apathetic 07:27, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, no one's objected. I've deleted the sentence. I could have replaced it with something like "Has won on the majority of circuits that he has competed on", but thought that rather weak, and anyway I think I saw a comment round here somewhere that there were too many records mentioned in the lead. Just to reiterate the logic - too many caveats in the statement to say 'is the first to...'. The caveats are 1. since winning the drivers championship, 2. except Turkey,which is recent and 3. except Estoril, where he has raced, but not won since winning the drivers championship. -- 4u1e 21:26, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Adding this, since there seems to be so much misinformation and speculation being spread in these sections, as well as complete NPOV nonsense, even from a mod?? Crazy. Discuss any substantive changes you thik need to occur to the sections here first Ernham 03:17, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 05:02, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
>>my comment
>>Is he called the "rainmaster"? Yes. Note that in the intro this is talked about, yet the article doesn't have too many demonstrations of why he earned it, so i thought it was a good idea to bring it back up. Did he perform incredibly well under wet conditions? yes he did. I don't see too much POV there, but I **could** see removing it and then demonstrating how well he did by facts. Gee, as a matter of fact, I DID JUST THAT-- you deleted it. (see below)
>>This was a mistake; it was the guy below you in the edit history. Sorry. You dind't add that.
>>Was Alonso losing time or were other people gaining time in relation to current track conditions? Clearly you take a POV stance. The point is, however, you deleted an important section of qualifying, yet you add this. And what is this? PURE SPECULATION. You remove pure facts that apparently you dind't "like", for pure speculation you apparently "liked". Sure, it seems like the case it was his tires, but you don't KNOW that; you speculate. He said in the press conference that it was NOT A MISTAKE TO changed tires. Sure, they slowed him down, but he said he HAD to change tires. Why? Because one side was completely bald! Why were they bald? Because he was racing so aggresively the first 12 laps! His teamate didn't have to change, why? His tires weren't balding! He was slowing down the field to supposrt Alonso! Hello? Alonso's mistake was driving too aggresively, and he is well known for being to hard on his tires.
>>Yes, you can essentially block the whole or almost the whole track, unless you risk smashing into someone on the next corner. you could have changed the wording a little bit, mentioning their unorthodox blocking method to some degree. Instead you compeltely delete it. gee, go figure.
>>Top 12, top 12 cars. THAT WAS THE REASON FOR THE MASSA COMPARSSION WAS GIVEN! He has essentially the same car/support/etc. No if ands or buts there. He is a perfect xomparisson for schumacher because of that. It was SHOWING how well Schumacher did given the circumstances he was in(and are you saying the "minnows" disproporionately use bridgestones??), see above if you have forgotten about "point one" above. This is total nonsense.
>>No he didn't. Massa did next to nothing in that race, even after their was a dry racing line about 2/3s into the race. He kept spinning out and going off the track on the corners, all the way up to his retirement. did you even watch it?
>>Umm, that's not what I recall. I don't recall him being aided by any retirements. And when he was finally in 3rd, the lead was about 8 seconds from him.
>>Maybe because it was obvious? Maybe because the commentators(at least the ones here) all noted such? Maybe--mostly just maybe-- because in the press conference he said PRECISELY THAT if you bothered to watch it! He didn't say conservatively, but he said "Taking it easy". >> Ernham 06:08, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Adding this, since there seems to be so much misinformation and speculation being spread in these sections, as well as complete NPOV nonsense, even from a mod?? Crazy. Discuss any substantive changes you thik need to occur to the sections here first. Ernham 03:18, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
When did I insert the word "sunny" into Shanghai? Can you substantiate your allegations? [6] nothing has been deleted/censored from the Schumacher article. Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 05:09, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I've been working here and there, giving sugestions on this article to make it FA, checking it, but I don't know what happened. Is is just me, or the 2006 section isn't NPOV at all right now? And why delete valid references just as those for the formula1.com when you can leave it there? I don't know what happened but this is definately not a step forward no Featured Article status...-- Serte 18:15, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to try to significantly trim this down to a approximately 4-5, maybe a little more on races that had controversial events, sentences per race, as opposed to the current, which ranges from 4-5 to 50+ sentences. Heh. If you don't like that I gutted/changed something, post exactly what was removed and why you think it deserves to be incorporated in the article. The section should be written in relation to schumacher. Outstanding, good or bad, events should be noted if they directly relate to Schumacher, but not overly dwelt on. So post exactly what was removed and your arguments for why it should be included, keeping in mind space is at a premium. Ernham 21:12, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
The incredibly anti-schumacher attacks that are continuously vomited up en masse by significant portions of the English media is disturbing both to me as a forumla one fan and doubly disturbing to me as a citizen of the world when I hear this coming from public scources, such as the BBC. This venomous assault on Schumacher has been noted by other journalists as well, and I think a section covering this unique phenomenon is rather appropriate given the commonality and magnitude of this assault throughout schumachers soon-to-be ending career. More often than not, Schumacher is called "the German", and I've yet to hear a single English broadcaster actually pronounce his name right, yet the English commentators elsewhere go to great lenghts to pronounce even extremely odd Africa names correctly in the case footballers and the like. The stereotypical article such as these usually includes jingoism, grotesque pictures/caricatures of schumacher making some kind of non-normal facial experession, hypocrisy, and what seems to be outright ignorance of facts/reality of a given situation. A motor sports>commentator/journalist summed it up pretty well:
"I am beginning to understand the primary reason for all the sad Schumacher bashing that hits the press and online media. Michael Schumacher is not English and he certainly does not drive for an English team and for a sport that has its heart in England, it looks unlikely that he will ever be a complete hero with the men who wield their pen more often than the German wield's his steering wheel.
It is a pity that more and more viewers and people all over the world listen and read about how Schumy is hesitant to go on a all out battle with other drivers on the track rather than in the pit lane. The commentators are all English, the authors are all English; it is as if to say that one needs an Italian writer to get some credible story on the stunning performances that Ferrari and its ace driver have put in this year." [7] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ernham ( talk • contribs)
As for blogger vs. commentator; The quote you gave seems to be from here [9] by Vinesh V Nair, who is described elsewhere as a blogger. I repeat that it is one of the worst pieces of journalism I've read in a long time. He talks about the savaging Schumacher gets in the British press yet fails to give even a single example. Ernham, spare you? Spare you what? The proof that what you said about the BBC is wrong? I assume you're talking about tabloid press, in which case can I give you some advice? You're looking in the wrong place for intelligent commentary of F1. If you want to read British analysis of F1 please stick to F1 Racing or the excellent coverage in most of the quality papers. Mark83 13:09, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
75% of the sportmanship section is filled with FIA and their various associates, such as stewards, incompotence, having little to nothing to do with the supposed sportsmanship of Schumahcer.
This entire section, essentially:
"In 1998 season, Schumacher created controversy by winning the British GP in the pit lane. He was issued a 10s stop-and-go penalty for overtaking during the Safety Car laps. Knowing that a conventional in-stop-out penalty would lose him the race to championship contender Mika Häkkinen, the team delayed him going into the pit for the penalty the allowed number of laps (3) and only served the penalty after the end of the race, thus avoided the slow out lap from the pit that would have caused him to lose the race. However, because the stewards had incorrectly issued the penalty Schumacher escaped punishment as the stewards later rescinded the penalty. The penalty (for overtaking Alex Wurz under safety car on lap 43 of 60) should have been issued within 25 minutes but Ferrari were informed 6 minutes after the limit had expired. The handwritten notification was also unclear as to which penalty was actually being issued: a 10s stop/go, or 10 seconds added to Schumacher's race time (a penalty which could only be used to punish an infraction in the last 12 laps).[19] As a result the three stewards involved handed in their licences at an extraordinary meeting of the FIA World Council.[20]
In 2003 European Grand Prix, Schumacher was helped back to the track by marshals when he ended up high-sided on the kerb after a spin. Many fans falsely believed that this was illegal, as drivers may not receive outside assistance to get back on the track. However, an exception is made if a car is in a dangerous position, and the FIA judged that this was indeed the case. Schumacher's critics complained of a double-standard, which they believe, again falsely, was substantiated by the marshals' refusal to aid Fernando Alonso in the 2004 Italian Grand Prix when he was in a similar situation. However, the rules for this situation had changed as the exception in the 2003 rules had been removed in the 2004 version. Schumacher also received a push from the marshals in the 2005 Australian Grand Prix, although he retired anyway due to suspension damage after driving back to the pits. However, Nick Heidfeld, who was involved in the same incident, received no help from the marshals and had to retire. However, receiving a push from marshals when a car is in a dangerous situation is hardly a unique or even rare thing. A notable example, for instance, is Riccardo Patrese, who won the 1982 Monaco Grand Prix having received a push from the marshals after a spin on the penultimate lap." Ernham 03:52, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Ernham 14:37, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
The sentence should be as informative as possible. The links to other people who helped turn the team around into a winning team are useful to people wanting to know more. The reference is absolutely necessary; references are Wikipedia policy. The more informative sentence with the links to to other team members and a reference should stay. ~ ONUnicorn ( Talk / Contribs) 15:22, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm not happy with the whole end of the sentence "turning this once struggling team into the most winning Formula One team in history". This suggests Ferrari had never won a thing but Schumacher, Brawn etc. had turned it into the most successful F1 team. In reality they made a once great team great again. Mark83 20:22, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't have time to put this in now, but the following from The Times (UK), 11/9/06, p. 79, has info on his nearest rival for some of his records, quite interesting if it can be included, but maybe need a separate article for his records because this is getting quite lengthy. This article can also be found here http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,5923-2352113_2,00.html
SIMPLY THE BEST
Michael Schumacher’s career records make him far and away the most successful driver in Formula One history
Schumacher is the only driver to have finished an entire season on the podium (2002) and holds the record for the most successive races in the points with 24 (2001-2003) and most successive podium finishes with 19(2001-2002)
Schumacher also holds the record for the biggest winning points margin in a season with 67 in 2002, the year in which he became the fastest to win the title when he was crowned with six races to spare
With Rubens Barrichello, Schumacher holds the record for the most one-two finishes of any pairing in Formula One history with 24 between 2000-2005
Edward Gorman
Other records
FASTEST RACE LAPS
Michael Schumacher 75
Alain Prost 41 2nd
HAT-TRICKS (pole, win, fastest lap)
Michael Schumacher 22
Jim Clark 11 2nd
PODIUM FINISHES
Michael Schumacher 153
Alain Prost 106 2nd
TOTAL CAREER POINTS
Michael Schumacher 1,354
Alain Prost 768.5 2nd
WINS FROM POLE
Michael Schumacher 40
Ayrton Senna 29 2nd
POLE POSITIONS
Michael Schumacher 68
Ayrton Senna 65 2nd
GRAND PRIX WINS
Michael Schumacher 90
Alain Prost 51 2nd
DRIVERS’ CHAMPIONSHIPS
Michael Schumacher 7
Juan Manuel Fangio 5 2nd place
WINS IN A SEASON
Michael Schumacher, 2004 13
2002 11
1995, 2000, 2001 9
Nigel Mansell 9 2nd