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Note do not link the Michael Hoffman in this article to the wikipedia article about the director, they are different people! Jbolden1517 17:07, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm throwing in the towel on this edit war. If anyone cares I've archived the old talk Talk:Michael Neumann/4-25-06, but it amounts to an "is so" "is not" discussion so any admin should feel free to delete.
OK hopefully at some point in the future someone decides to do something useful with this article. If so here is where you stand (all dates refer to the main article):
Good luck with your work. Jbolden1517 19:07, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
(moved from SV's talk page) In this edit of yours: [1] you removed the qualifiers on the categories which prevents them from appearing in the correct order. Without the qualifiers, Michael Neumann will appear under the M category -- all the other individuals in that category only have last names that start with M. I am adding them back, if you remove them please explain why Michael Neumann is being treated differently that most others. -- LuckyLittleGrasshopper 22:58, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I didn't remove anything. We had an edit conflict. It was your edit that failed to take. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:02, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I removed that he is a professor of philosophy, because there's no indication on the faculty website that he's a professor, apart from in the North American sense of "teacher." Many, if not most, people use professor to mean someone who holds a chair. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:12, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
(moved from SV's talk page) What's up with removing this claim? It states so on his faculty maintained page - look at the title "Professor of Philosphy": [3] -- LuckyLittleGrasshopper 02:44, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
He has attracted controversy with his opinion essays about the Israel-Palestine conflict and anti-Semitism, published by the CounterPunch website/newsletter. [1] [2]
His position is that anti-Semitism and anti-Semitic acts are given too much attention and that they are "particularly unimportant to the Israel-Palestine conflict" [3] and that "the definition of 'anti-Semitism' has been manipulated for political ends." [2] He has written that "[w]e should almost never take anti-Semitism seriously, and maybe we should have some fun with it." [3] He has also written that he grew up in Jewish culture (he says his parents were German-Jewish refugees) and that "like many people growing up in a culture, I have come to dislike it. But it is unwise to count my dislike as antisemitic, not because I am Jewish, but because it is harmless." [1]
He has also had an e-mail exchange with the Jewish Tribal Review, an antisemitic website. In his e-mail correspondance, he said “I should perhaps have said I am very interested in truth, justice and understanding, but right now I have far more interest in helping the Palestinians. I would use anything, including lies, injustice and obfuscation, to do so. If an effective strategy means that some truths about the Jews don’t come to light, I don’t care. If an effective strategy means encouraging reasonable anti-Semitism or reasonable hostility to Jews, I don’t care. If it means encouraging vicious racist anti-Semitism, or the destruction of the State of Israel, I still don’t care.” [7] This has led some to remark that he may encouraging antisemitism [8]
He was a contributor to Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey St. Clair's 2003 collection The Politics of Anti-Semitism. [4] ISBN 1902593774
I would like to replace this section with the proposed section below, for the following reasons: (1) We should be allowed to gradually include a full spectrum of Neumann's views on anti-Semitism and the Israel-Palestine conflict, instead of just views that have generated controversy. (2) The writeup above too often refers to secondary sources which quote Neumann. We should instead refer to Neumann's original pieces. (3) Neumann's thoughts on anti-Semitism should be placed in more context. (4) We should give more references to criticism in the press, as well as to Neumann's defense.
References
Neumann is a contributor to Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey St. Clair's 2003 collection The Politics of Anti-Semitism. [1] ISBN 1902593774
He has written on anti-Semitism and the Israel-Palestine conflict in several opinion essays published by the CounterPunch website/newsletter. [2] [3] [4] Neumann argues [2] that "we should almost never take antisemitism seriously, and maybe we should have some fun with it. I think it is particularly unimportant to the Israel-Palestine conflict, except perhaps as a diversion from the real issues." He then states that Israel's goal is the extinction of the Palestinian people, adding "True, Israel has enough PR-savvy to eliminate them with an American rather than a Hitlerian level of violence. This is a kinder, gentler genocide that portrays its perpetrators as victims." Thus Neumann views Arab antisemitism as trivial in the larger context of the Israel-Palestine conflict: "Undoubtedly there is genuine antisemitism in the Arab world: the distribution of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the myths about stealing the blood of gentile babies. This is utterly inexcusable. So was your failure to answer Aunt Bee's last letter." He brings his argument to a conclusion as follows: "In short, the real scandal today is not antisemitism but the importance it is given. Israel has committed war crimes. It has implicated Jews generally in these crimes, and Jews generally have hastened to implicate themselves. This has provoked hatred against Jews. Why not? Some of this hatred is racist, some isn't, but who cares?"
In 2002, Neumann had an e-mail exchange with the Jewish Tribal Review, an anti-Semitic website. In his correspondence, he said “I should perhaps have said I am very interested in truth, justice and understanding, but right now I have far more interest in helping the Palestinians. I would use anything, including lies, injustice and obfuscation, to do so. If an effective strategy means that some truths about the Jews don’t come to light, I don’t care. If an effective strategy means encouraging reasonable anti-Semitism or reasonable hostility to Jews, I don’t care. If it means encouraging vicious racist anti-Semitism, or the destruction of the State of Israel, I still don’t care.” [9] After the resulting outcry in the National Post and elsewhere, [10] [11] Neumann explained and defended these remarks on his Israel-Palestinian page [12].
In the context of the Israel-Palestine conflict, Neumann opines [3] that it is dangerous to label as anti-Semitic the conclusion that "Jews, generally, had some responsibility for war crimes and human rights violations." He writes: "The best way to reserve "anti-Semitism" as a term of condemnation is to define it as hatred of Jews, not for what they do but for what they are. It is to hate them just because they belong to a certain ethnic group. Foxman is right to suggest that you can be an anti-Semite without expressing any racist sentiments: Many anti-Semites confine themselves to expounding false claims about Jewish control. But you can also, without harboring anti-Semitic hate, criticize Israel and even the Jewish community for its failures."
Neumann takes the position [4] that support of Israel in the Israel-Palestinian conflict is against US interests: "Just imagine if the US stopped backing Israel and gave even moderate support to the Palestinians. Suddenly Islam and America would be on the same side. The war on terror would become a cakewalk. The credibility of American democracy would skyrocket in the Middle East." 204.210.35.48 23:32, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
References
I think there is serious problems with discussing this Jewish tribal review email as "Neumann said in an email" with regards to an email he has questioned the veracity of. Neumann has taken some pretty strong stances. On the issue of Jewish Tribal review he has been uniformly hostile. To present an email he may have written to a site he openly attacks on a subject he was written at length about based on comments from people would trust anything else they say strikes me as completely unfair. Neumann has a large public body of work you can analyze, why pick something in a private body whose authenticity is questionable? jbolden1517 Talk 13:40, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
If the National Post reports that Jesse Jackson called NYC "Hymietown", and Jackson responded that this was taken out of context, do you feel that Wikipedia would have to explain the context (according to Jackson) before using the National Post quote? I would think it would suffice to report just what happened: "The National Post reported abc and Jackson explained that the context was xyz." That being said, I think we can reach some sort of compromise here, but it will help if you clarify your position. First you suggest that it is wrong to quote the JTR page because JTR has no credibility (e.g., maybe they doctored the quotes). Then you turn around and suggest we rely on the JTR page to help provide the context for Neumann's case. Which is it? Precis 22:43, 6 May 2006 (UTC) Added note: For a comical illustration of how unreliable the JTR Neumann page site is, look at item 5, which claims that Jews are calling for censorship of Neumann. When you follow the link, you see that JTR confused the words "censor" and "censure". Precis 00:57, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I removed the following "critique of Neumann" section:
I'll comment on the JTR addition later. Precis 23:46, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
BTW I notice there are links to Neumann's stuff. I've organized Neumann's articles already. If you look at the [13] version of the article you'll see his articles organized. jbolden1517 Talk 01:14, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I've revised this, keeping the spirit, while removing lots of irrelevant or trivial items and correcting a number of mistakes. Precis 02:07, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
1) You say "this quote". Wrong. The quote we give in the JTR section does not mention the words "lying" and "obfuscation". Neumann is referring to a passage we didn't use. 2) The word strategy in the JTR section refers to strategy of helping Palestinians (not strategy of lying)--I'm using the word that Neumann himself used. 3) Although the defense Neumann gives above is not germane to the issue at hand, I'll comment on it anyway. First he indicates that he is so committed to Palestinians that he would do anything, including lying, to help them. Then he says he never lies in his writing because that would hurt the Palestinians. Does that make any sense? Is it just me, or is there a contradiction here? Precis 01:53, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I think the " I am not interested in the truth" is what is meant by that reference to lying.
Wrong. The 2-line quote is: "My sole concern is indeed to help the Palestinians, and I try to play for keeps. I am not interested in the truth, or justice, or understanding, or anything else, except so far as it serves that purpose." The reference to lying was in a DIFFERENT email passage of Neumann where he spoke DIRECTLY of lying and obfuscation. Here it is: "I am very interested in truth, justice and understanding, but right now I have far more interest in helping the Palestinians. I would use anything, including lies, injustice and obfuscation, to do so. If an effective strategy means that some truths about the Jews don't come to light, I don't care. If an effective strategy means encouraging reasonable antisemitism, or reasonable hostility to Jews, I also don't care. If it means encouraging vicious racist antisemitism, or the destruction of the state of Israel, I still don't care." Note that this passage has 5-lines, not 2.
The only passage quoted by the CJC is those 2 lines.
Why do you persist in saying things like this? CJC quoted the 5-line passage above; see [14]. This is much more inflammatory than the 2-line passage you keep harping on.
Everybody is talking about the same thing. That's what makes this so obscene we have a guy with hundreds of pages of material and 2 lines out of context (which have never been verified for accuracy) are what everyone wants to discuss.
I'd already explained yesterday that we are talking about different passages, but you persist in basing your argument on the 2-line passage. Why?
My point is that he disagrees it is "his strategy". In other words you are asserting something is strategy which he specifically denies is his strategy.
His denial referred to the 5-line quote, not the 2-line quote, as I explained yesterday. As I also explained yesterday, Neumann DOES use the term "strategy" in reference to the 2-line quote. By the way, your chess analogy is unconvincing, since Neumann didn't say imply anything situational like "I haven't done X so far." Rather, he said "I don't do X in ANYTHING I write." That doesn't sound very situational to me.
All that being said, in an attempt to be utterly fair, I've removed the 2-line quote entirely (but who knows, someone may put it back). The quote isn't really necessary--interested readers need only click on the links to find out what the fuss was all about. Precis 07:46, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
The easiest thing is to have no Neumann quotes in the JTR section--then we can avoid the endless discussions about whether the quotes taken from a white power website are authentic or not, as well as the tedious discussions about whether the quotes are smears or valid characterizations of Neumann's views. If someone puts the 5-line quote back in, then sure, a quote that Neumann used to directly defend against this 5-line passage can be placed back in for balance. Simply quote his defense and stop there, avoid paraphrasing it by describing what you think is the context, otherwise you may give the "context" more credibility than it deserves. My own opinion is that his defense is nonsensical, although of course you disagree. Precis 14:30, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 23:51, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Evidently there is need of a thorough review of the page. The original page seemed cocked to cite everything negative or ostensibly 'antisemitic' deducible from controversies surrounding Neumann. Rather than simply cleanse it, I went through the evidence and contextualised these accusations, in order to give what appears to be Neumann's public record in full on these issues. The anonymous editor takes this as a soapbox operation. To the contrary. If you are going to allow the page to mention very serious smears, you are obliged at least, of a living person, to quote him precisely so that the reader can get a precise idea of the controversy he was involved with. One could simply eliminate everything, no smears, no counter-defence. Phgao has tried to mediate, a middle way, but, I think, with an austerity that does not solve the basic problem. I don't think my own earlier text is anything more than a starting point, to be pruned, weeded, enriched as editors concur in doing so. A little discussion point by point would help. A further point, in his bio, mention of the fact he was Franz Neumann's son is not controversial. It is a fact, an important one indeed, and should be mentioned. I look forward to a discussion on how to improve the text. Nishidani 09:14, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
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Note do not link the Michael Hoffman in this article to the wikipedia article about the director, they are different people! Jbolden1517 17:07, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm throwing in the towel on this edit war. If anyone cares I've archived the old talk Talk:Michael Neumann/4-25-06, but it amounts to an "is so" "is not" discussion so any admin should feel free to delete.
OK hopefully at some point in the future someone decides to do something useful with this article. If so here is where you stand (all dates refer to the main article):
Good luck with your work. Jbolden1517 19:07, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
(moved from SV's talk page) In this edit of yours: [1] you removed the qualifiers on the categories which prevents them from appearing in the correct order. Without the qualifiers, Michael Neumann will appear under the M category -- all the other individuals in that category only have last names that start with M. I am adding them back, if you remove them please explain why Michael Neumann is being treated differently that most others. -- LuckyLittleGrasshopper 22:58, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I didn't remove anything. We had an edit conflict. It was your edit that failed to take. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:02, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I removed that he is a professor of philosophy, because there's no indication on the faculty website that he's a professor, apart from in the North American sense of "teacher." Many, if not most, people use professor to mean someone who holds a chair. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:12, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
(moved from SV's talk page) What's up with removing this claim? It states so on his faculty maintained page - look at the title "Professor of Philosphy": [3] -- LuckyLittleGrasshopper 02:44, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
He has attracted controversy with his opinion essays about the Israel-Palestine conflict and anti-Semitism, published by the CounterPunch website/newsletter. [1] [2]
His position is that anti-Semitism and anti-Semitic acts are given too much attention and that they are "particularly unimportant to the Israel-Palestine conflict" [3] and that "the definition of 'anti-Semitism' has been manipulated for political ends." [2] He has written that "[w]e should almost never take anti-Semitism seriously, and maybe we should have some fun with it." [3] He has also written that he grew up in Jewish culture (he says his parents were German-Jewish refugees) and that "like many people growing up in a culture, I have come to dislike it. But it is unwise to count my dislike as antisemitic, not because I am Jewish, but because it is harmless." [1]
He has also had an e-mail exchange with the Jewish Tribal Review, an antisemitic website. In his e-mail correspondance, he said “I should perhaps have said I am very interested in truth, justice and understanding, but right now I have far more interest in helping the Palestinians. I would use anything, including lies, injustice and obfuscation, to do so. If an effective strategy means that some truths about the Jews don’t come to light, I don’t care. If an effective strategy means encouraging reasonable anti-Semitism or reasonable hostility to Jews, I don’t care. If it means encouraging vicious racist anti-Semitism, or the destruction of the State of Israel, I still don’t care.” [7] This has led some to remark that he may encouraging antisemitism [8]
He was a contributor to Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey St. Clair's 2003 collection The Politics of Anti-Semitism. [4] ISBN 1902593774
I would like to replace this section with the proposed section below, for the following reasons: (1) We should be allowed to gradually include a full spectrum of Neumann's views on anti-Semitism and the Israel-Palestine conflict, instead of just views that have generated controversy. (2) The writeup above too often refers to secondary sources which quote Neumann. We should instead refer to Neumann's original pieces. (3) Neumann's thoughts on anti-Semitism should be placed in more context. (4) We should give more references to criticism in the press, as well as to Neumann's defense.
References
Neumann is a contributor to Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey St. Clair's 2003 collection The Politics of Anti-Semitism. [1] ISBN 1902593774
He has written on anti-Semitism and the Israel-Palestine conflict in several opinion essays published by the CounterPunch website/newsletter. [2] [3] [4] Neumann argues [2] that "we should almost never take antisemitism seriously, and maybe we should have some fun with it. I think it is particularly unimportant to the Israel-Palestine conflict, except perhaps as a diversion from the real issues." He then states that Israel's goal is the extinction of the Palestinian people, adding "True, Israel has enough PR-savvy to eliminate them with an American rather than a Hitlerian level of violence. This is a kinder, gentler genocide that portrays its perpetrators as victims." Thus Neumann views Arab antisemitism as trivial in the larger context of the Israel-Palestine conflict: "Undoubtedly there is genuine antisemitism in the Arab world: the distribution of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the myths about stealing the blood of gentile babies. This is utterly inexcusable. So was your failure to answer Aunt Bee's last letter." He brings his argument to a conclusion as follows: "In short, the real scandal today is not antisemitism but the importance it is given. Israel has committed war crimes. It has implicated Jews generally in these crimes, and Jews generally have hastened to implicate themselves. This has provoked hatred against Jews. Why not? Some of this hatred is racist, some isn't, but who cares?"
In 2002, Neumann had an e-mail exchange with the Jewish Tribal Review, an anti-Semitic website. In his correspondence, he said “I should perhaps have said I am very interested in truth, justice and understanding, but right now I have far more interest in helping the Palestinians. I would use anything, including lies, injustice and obfuscation, to do so. If an effective strategy means that some truths about the Jews don’t come to light, I don’t care. If an effective strategy means encouraging reasonable anti-Semitism or reasonable hostility to Jews, I don’t care. If it means encouraging vicious racist anti-Semitism, or the destruction of the State of Israel, I still don’t care.” [9] After the resulting outcry in the National Post and elsewhere, [10] [11] Neumann explained and defended these remarks on his Israel-Palestinian page [12].
In the context of the Israel-Palestine conflict, Neumann opines [3] that it is dangerous to label as anti-Semitic the conclusion that "Jews, generally, had some responsibility for war crimes and human rights violations." He writes: "The best way to reserve "anti-Semitism" as a term of condemnation is to define it as hatred of Jews, not for what they do but for what they are. It is to hate them just because they belong to a certain ethnic group. Foxman is right to suggest that you can be an anti-Semite without expressing any racist sentiments: Many anti-Semites confine themselves to expounding false claims about Jewish control. But you can also, without harboring anti-Semitic hate, criticize Israel and even the Jewish community for its failures."
Neumann takes the position [4] that support of Israel in the Israel-Palestinian conflict is against US interests: "Just imagine if the US stopped backing Israel and gave even moderate support to the Palestinians. Suddenly Islam and America would be on the same side. The war on terror would become a cakewalk. The credibility of American democracy would skyrocket in the Middle East." 204.210.35.48 23:32, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
References
I think there is serious problems with discussing this Jewish tribal review email as "Neumann said in an email" with regards to an email he has questioned the veracity of. Neumann has taken some pretty strong stances. On the issue of Jewish Tribal review he has been uniformly hostile. To present an email he may have written to a site he openly attacks on a subject he was written at length about based on comments from people would trust anything else they say strikes me as completely unfair. Neumann has a large public body of work you can analyze, why pick something in a private body whose authenticity is questionable? jbolden1517 Talk 13:40, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
If the National Post reports that Jesse Jackson called NYC "Hymietown", and Jackson responded that this was taken out of context, do you feel that Wikipedia would have to explain the context (according to Jackson) before using the National Post quote? I would think it would suffice to report just what happened: "The National Post reported abc and Jackson explained that the context was xyz." That being said, I think we can reach some sort of compromise here, but it will help if you clarify your position. First you suggest that it is wrong to quote the JTR page because JTR has no credibility (e.g., maybe they doctored the quotes). Then you turn around and suggest we rely on the JTR page to help provide the context for Neumann's case. Which is it? Precis 22:43, 6 May 2006 (UTC) Added note: For a comical illustration of how unreliable the JTR Neumann page site is, look at item 5, which claims that Jews are calling for censorship of Neumann. When you follow the link, you see that JTR confused the words "censor" and "censure". Precis 00:57, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I removed the following "critique of Neumann" section:
I'll comment on the JTR addition later. Precis 23:46, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
BTW I notice there are links to Neumann's stuff. I've organized Neumann's articles already. If you look at the [13] version of the article you'll see his articles organized. jbolden1517 Talk 01:14, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I've revised this, keeping the spirit, while removing lots of irrelevant or trivial items and correcting a number of mistakes. Precis 02:07, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
1) You say "this quote". Wrong. The quote we give in the JTR section does not mention the words "lying" and "obfuscation". Neumann is referring to a passage we didn't use. 2) The word strategy in the JTR section refers to strategy of helping Palestinians (not strategy of lying)--I'm using the word that Neumann himself used. 3) Although the defense Neumann gives above is not germane to the issue at hand, I'll comment on it anyway. First he indicates that he is so committed to Palestinians that he would do anything, including lying, to help them. Then he says he never lies in his writing because that would hurt the Palestinians. Does that make any sense? Is it just me, or is there a contradiction here? Precis 01:53, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I think the " I am not interested in the truth" is what is meant by that reference to lying.
Wrong. The 2-line quote is: "My sole concern is indeed to help the Palestinians, and I try to play for keeps. I am not interested in the truth, or justice, or understanding, or anything else, except so far as it serves that purpose." The reference to lying was in a DIFFERENT email passage of Neumann where he spoke DIRECTLY of lying and obfuscation. Here it is: "I am very interested in truth, justice and understanding, but right now I have far more interest in helping the Palestinians. I would use anything, including lies, injustice and obfuscation, to do so. If an effective strategy means that some truths about the Jews don't come to light, I don't care. If an effective strategy means encouraging reasonable antisemitism, or reasonable hostility to Jews, I also don't care. If it means encouraging vicious racist antisemitism, or the destruction of the state of Israel, I still don't care." Note that this passage has 5-lines, not 2.
The only passage quoted by the CJC is those 2 lines.
Why do you persist in saying things like this? CJC quoted the 5-line passage above; see [14]. This is much more inflammatory than the 2-line passage you keep harping on.
Everybody is talking about the same thing. That's what makes this so obscene we have a guy with hundreds of pages of material and 2 lines out of context (which have never been verified for accuracy) are what everyone wants to discuss.
I'd already explained yesterday that we are talking about different passages, but you persist in basing your argument on the 2-line passage. Why?
My point is that he disagrees it is "his strategy". In other words you are asserting something is strategy which he specifically denies is his strategy.
His denial referred to the 5-line quote, not the 2-line quote, as I explained yesterday. As I also explained yesterday, Neumann DOES use the term "strategy" in reference to the 2-line quote. By the way, your chess analogy is unconvincing, since Neumann didn't say imply anything situational like "I haven't done X so far." Rather, he said "I don't do X in ANYTHING I write." That doesn't sound very situational to me.
All that being said, in an attempt to be utterly fair, I've removed the 2-line quote entirely (but who knows, someone may put it back). The quote isn't really necessary--interested readers need only click on the links to find out what the fuss was all about. Precis 07:46, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
The easiest thing is to have no Neumann quotes in the JTR section--then we can avoid the endless discussions about whether the quotes taken from a white power website are authentic or not, as well as the tedious discussions about whether the quotes are smears or valid characterizations of Neumann's views. If someone puts the 5-line quote back in, then sure, a quote that Neumann used to directly defend against this 5-line passage can be placed back in for balance. Simply quote his defense and stop there, avoid paraphrasing it by describing what you think is the context, otherwise you may give the "context" more credibility than it deserves. My own opinion is that his defense is nonsensical, although of course you disagree. Precis 14:30, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 23:51, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Evidently there is need of a thorough review of the page. The original page seemed cocked to cite everything negative or ostensibly 'antisemitic' deducible from controversies surrounding Neumann. Rather than simply cleanse it, I went through the evidence and contextualised these accusations, in order to give what appears to be Neumann's public record in full on these issues. The anonymous editor takes this as a soapbox operation. To the contrary. If you are going to allow the page to mention very serious smears, you are obliged at least, of a living person, to quote him precisely so that the reader can get a precise idea of the controversy he was involved with. One could simply eliminate everything, no smears, no counter-defence. Phgao has tried to mediate, a middle way, but, I think, with an austerity that does not solve the basic problem. I don't think my own earlier text is anything more than a starting point, to be pruned, weeded, enriched as editors concur in doing so. A little discussion point by point would help. A further point, in his bio, mention of the fact he was Franz Neumann's son is not controversial. It is a fact, an important one indeed, and should be mentioned. I look forward to a discussion on how to improve the text. Nishidani 09:14, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 00:49, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
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After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 06:39, 28 January 2018 (UTC)