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My name is Larry Weisenberg and I represent Mike Milken. My apologies for taking so long to respond to the change added by NickCT on October 22, 2020. Like so many editors over the past many years who have tried to promote their own NPOV, Nick added “convicted felon” to the lead paragraph. This addition is wholly inappropriate for an encyclopedic entry: it is redundant and serves no purpose but to inflame and degrade. The lead already includes a factual description: “his conviction and sentence following a guilty plea on felony charges for violating U.S. securities laws.” The entire second paragraph is devoted to his legal woes. If this is going to be an unbiased entry, I recommend returning to a simpler, factual entry: Michael Robert Milken (born July 4, 1946) is an American financier and philanthropist. He is noted for his role in the development of the market for high-yield bonds ("junk bonds"), his conviction and sentence following a guilty plea on felony charges for violating U.S. securities laws, and his philanthropic efforts. Milken was pardoned by President Donald Trump on February 18, 2020. LarryWeisenberg ( talk) 22:23, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
Additional note: RegentsPark previously acknowledged my point by removing "convicted felon" from the lead back in August 2019 based on previous concensus. LarryWeisenberg ( talk) 22:26, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
You have illustrated my point exactly: YOU have decided that Milken is “far and away notable for his felony conviction, not for his philanthropy.” YOU believe that “to even put philanthropist in the lede at all is a bit sketchy as he isn't notably philanthropic especially compared with other persons of similar net worth.” And from your research, YOU have concluded that “his philanthropic activities seem more to have been an image rehabilitation effort.” These are all YOUR opinions.
Many respected publications have disagreed with you over the past two decades. A small sample includes:
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a playground of opinions. Factually, Mike Milken is an American financier and philanthropist noted for his role in the development of the market for high-yield bonds ("junk bonds"), his conviction and sentence following a guilty plea on felony charges for violating U.S. securities laws, and his philanthropic efforts. This is how this entry read for many years based on a collaborative Wiki effort – and it should be returned to that version. 12.44.44.11 ( talk) 19:16, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
Doing some further sleuthing, I would have a hard time calling Fortune, Esquire, and Forbes magazines independent of Milken. Milken was an early investor in Ted Turner, who as the owner of Time Warner, was the parent company of Fortune magazine when that article was written, the acquisition of which Milken received a $50 million consulting fee in the mid 1990s ( https://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1996/09/30/217426/index.htm). We have pictures of Milken attending parties with the Esquire CEO David Granger ( https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/david-granger-greg-simon-jhane-barnes-michael-milken-and-news-photo/591606866). One of the founders of Elevation Partners, the owner of Forbes magazine, has spoken at the Milken Institute ( https://milkeninstitute.org/sites/default/files/2019-09/GC2019_Agenda_FINAL.pdf). This article is very tricky, because Milken does associate with so many publishing companies, which there is nothing wrong with, but it does make it difficult to determine what a truly good source is. Epachamo ( talk) 15:10, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
Just wanted to express my opinions on
this pending revision, which I think should not be accepted in its current state. Chiefly, this edit serves to erase or minimize references to Milken's criminal background. I privately suspect that the anonymous editor has a conflict of interest. The edit removes "convicted felon" from the lead, something I strongly disagree with, and changes "philanthropist" to "prominent philanthropist". The latter change seems like puffery, but I don't necessarily disagree with it. Some of the other body paragraph revisions may also be acceptable.
From what I can tell, current consensus is that describing the subject in the lead paragraph as a "convicted felon, financier and philanthropist" is appropriate. While it should obviously be handled with care, the subject's criminal past is easily the most notable fact about him, so I believe it should definitely be reflected in the lead, as much as the subject and subject's lawyer may wish for it not to be. Should we consider a terminology like "former felon", which would indicate that the subject is not known to be actively engaged in criminal activity?
RoxySaunders (
talk)
22:21, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
Michael Robert Milken (born July 4, 1946) is an American financier and philanthropist. He is noted for his role in the development of the market for high-yield bonds ("junk bonds") and his conviction and sentence following a guilty plea on felony charges for violating U.S. securities laws. Since his release from prison, he has also become known for his philanthropy. On February 18, 2020 Milken was pardoned by President Trump. LarryWeisenberg ( talk) 19:55, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
I'm still Larry Weisenberg and I still represent Mike Milken. Milken was fully pardoned by President Trump, according to any news source you wish to consult. The recent inaccurate change regarding clemency should be reversed now. LarryWeisenberg ( talk) 15:59, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
My understanding is that he still has a lifetime ban on working in the securities industry. I wouldn't consider this a full pardon. Epachamo ( talk) 04:20, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
My name is Larry Weisenberg and I represent Mike Milken. My apologies for taking so long to respond to the change added by NickCT on October 22, 2020. Like so many editors over the past many years who have tried to promote their own NPOV, Nick added “convicted felon” to the lead paragraph. This addition is wholly inappropriate for an encyclopedic entry: it is redundant and serves no purpose but to inflame and degrade. The lead already includes a factual description: “his conviction and sentence following a guilty plea on felony charges for violating U.S. securities laws.” The entire second paragraph is devoted to his legal woes. If this is going to be an unbiased entry, I recommend returning to a simpler, factual entry: Michael Robert Milken (born July 4, 1946) is an American financier and philanthropist. He is noted for his role in the development of the market for high-yield bonds ("junk bonds"), his conviction and sentence following a guilty plea on felony charges for violating U.S. securities laws, and his philanthropic efforts. Milken was pardoned by President Donald Trump on February 18, 2020. LarryWeisenberg ( talk) 22:23, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
Additional note: RegentsPark previously acknowledged my point by removing "convicted felon" from the lead back in August 2019 based on previous concensus. LarryWeisenberg ( talk) 22:26, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
You have illustrated my point exactly: YOU have decided that Milken is “far and away notable for his felony conviction, not for his philanthropy.” YOU believe that “to even put philanthropist in the lede at all is a bit sketchy as he isn't notably philanthropic especially compared with other persons of similar net worth.” And from your research, YOU have concluded that “his philanthropic activities seem more to have been an image rehabilitation effort.” These are all YOUR opinions.
Many respected publications have disagreed with you over the past two decades. A small sample includes:
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a playground of opinions. Factually, Mike Milken is an American financier and philanthropist noted for his role in the development of the market for high-yield bonds ("junk bonds"), his conviction and sentence following a guilty plea on felony charges for violating U.S. securities laws, and his philanthropic efforts. This is how this entry read for many years based on a collaborative Wiki effort – and it should be returned to that version. 12.44.44.11 ( talk) 19:16, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
Doing some further sleuthing, I would have a hard time calling Fortune, Esquire, and Forbes magazines independent of Milken. Milken was an early investor in Ted Turner, who as the owner of Time Warner, was the parent company of Fortune magazine when that article was written, the acquisition of which Milken received a $50 million consulting fee in the mid 1990s ( https://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1996/09/30/217426/index.htm). We have pictures of Milken attending parties with the Esquire CEO David Granger ( https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/david-granger-greg-simon-jhane-barnes-michael-milken-and-news-photo/591606866). One of the founders of Elevation Partners, the owner of Forbes magazine, has spoken at the Milken Institute ( https://milkeninstitute.org/sites/default/files/2019-09/GC2019_Agenda_FINAL.pdf). This article is very tricky, because Milken does associate with so many publishing companies, which there is nothing wrong with, but it does make it difficult to determine what a truly good source is. Epachamo ( talk) 15:10, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
Just wanted to express my opinions on
this pending revision, which I think should not be accepted in its current state. Chiefly, this edit serves to erase or minimize references to Milken's criminal background. I privately suspect that the anonymous editor has a conflict of interest. The edit removes "convicted felon" from the lead, something I strongly disagree with, and changes "philanthropist" to "prominent philanthropist". The latter change seems like puffery, but I don't necessarily disagree with it. Some of the other body paragraph revisions may also be acceptable.
From what I can tell, current consensus is that describing the subject in the lead paragraph as a "convicted felon, financier and philanthropist" is appropriate. While it should obviously be handled with care, the subject's criminal past is easily the most notable fact about him, so I believe it should definitely be reflected in the lead, as much as the subject and subject's lawyer may wish for it not to be. Should we consider a terminology like "former felon", which would indicate that the subject is not known to be actively engaged in criminal activity?
RoxySaunders (
talk)
22:21, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
Michael Robert Milken (born July 4, 1946) is an American financier and philanthropist. He is noted for his role in the development of the market for high-yield bonds ("junk bonds") and his conviction and sentence following a guilty plea on felony charges for violating U.S. securities laws. Since his release from prison, he has also become known for his philanthropy. On February 18, 2020 Milken was pardoned by President Trump. LarryWeisenberg ( talk) 19:55, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
I'm still Larry Weisenberg and I still represent Mike Milken. Milken was fully pardoned by President Trump, according to any news source you wish to consult. The recent inaccurate change regarding clemency should be reversed now. LarryWeisenberg ( talk) 15:59, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
My understanding is that he still has a lifetime ban on working in the securities industry. I wouldn't consider this a full pardon. Epachamo ( talk) 04:20, 23 March 2021 (UTC)