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This article needs to have information about how McGinn was defeated for reelection. The page doesn't mention Murray or the 2013 election at all. Without reading the sides closely one might think he is still mayor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.205.133.220 ( talk) 14:36, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
There is a discussion about this article on the BLP Noticeboard [1]. I ask other interested editors to weigh in. Specifically, my efforts to rectify the situation were reverted here [2]. Qworty ( talk) 11:15, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
TomPointTwo is clearly biased and his edits are so slanted that no reasonable person can accept his claims of neutrality. That his edits have stood this long are ridiculous. He has obvious hostility against the subject and should be barred from further edits. Selectively quoting reporters opinions and musstating pol ressults is clear bad faith. In the interesy of reason, we cannot allow them to stand. We are not fans of McGinn, but we are fans of Wikipedia neutrality. TomPointTwo will need to make hate his full time job if he wants it to remain spewed across wikipedia as we shall take it down every time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.126.250.58 ( talk) 13:25, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
Why is TomPointTwo such an "interested editor"? There seems to be a heavy conflict of interest as the only information offered by this author is that which is decidedly negative. Request removal as an editor in the interests of neutrality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.135.36.99 ( talk) 14:57, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
TomPointTwo, we all appreciate your efforts, however, they are not balanced. Polls and statistics can be interpreted a number of ways, and you have shown a lack of acceptance for any interpretations other than you own. In fact, you often "correct" them to your own interpretations within minutes of them being changed. There is a difference between "interest" and "obsession", and when someone takes an interest in a public figure's page to the extent that you have, there are usually ulterior motives. I think it is very clear to the majority of readers that you have a specific agenda, and you are using Wikipedia as a platform for that agenda. Unfortunately, this is not the place to do so. If you wish to make an anti-McGinn webpage on your own dime and on your own domain, I encourage you to do so. Unfortunately, this page is on the radar for it's rampant misuse, and it's unlikely that your own interpretation will not be the last word on the matter, regardless of how badly you want that to happen. Until a consensus is reached on the neutrality of this page, I would ask that you stop pushing the issue in the main article. At this point, your actions amount to vandalism and bad faith. Your wording is highly misleading and is taken from sources which solely support your view. They have a place in a Wikipedia article, but only in the context of balancing views. You need to take your own advice about removing material that you do not like, as this is what you have been doing ad-nauseum. Please cease. Thugdog Nasty ( talk) 19:56, 20 May 2011 (UTC)— Thugdog Nasty ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Also, Tom, please refraining from using phrases like "We have a policy", etc. It is misleading and implies that your actions and views are sanctioned by Wikipedia staff. There is serious debate and controversy as to whether your behavior is within the limits of Wikipedia guidelines. The fact of the matter is that readers/editors are not required to follow the instructions that you lay out for them. I've no doubt that you want us to follow them, but until a more impartial judge issues a decision, your requests/demands for acquiescence are hereby denied. A request for help has been issued to Wikipedia Editorial. Hopefully they will help us resolve this matter shortly. Thugdog Nasty ( talk) 19:56, 20 May 2011 (UTC)— Thugdog Nasty ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Assuming the poll is legitimate (and there is some question to that) - Why would we omit the "good" and "fair" results from the poll information? 66% rated McGinn fair or better, yet, this interpretation of the results is not allowed to stand in the article. Only "excellent" and "poor". Reason? Thugdog Nasty ( talk) 20:28, 20 May 2011 (UTC)— Thugdog Nasty ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
I am not the blogger in question, but I was made aware of this page due to that article. Be careful of WP:OUT violations as I was warned of today when I even insinuated the group with whom you may be affiliated. You seem to be knowledgeable of the rules while liberally violating them and making excuses for doing so. In any event. Is "good" also not positive? Is "fair" not in the eye of the beholder as to whether it positive, negative, or neutral. If you had wanted to include the full results, you could have, but you chose not to. Why don't you allow the reader to determine "overall lean"? It is two more entries and not more than 20-30 additional characters. In my opinion, you are drawing conclusions and leading the reader to those conclusions. Your edits are not neutral, as has been pointed out here repeatedly (read below). I am not the first person to make this observation, perhaps just the most persistent. As the most determined author who monitors the page continuously, you clearly have the upper-hand over your critics who cannot devote the time to the matter that you do. This is why you eagerly take down the Neutral notice as soon as it seems that people have become exhausted with changing your opinion (which is clearly not possible). Unfortunately, I don't think that you I will see eye to eye on this matter. This is why we need some kind of impartial ruling from the editorial staff. Whatever ruling they make and whatever guidance I receive, I will abide by, and I trust you will do the same. I will be diligent in seeking such a ruling. Have a good day. Thugdog Nasty ( talk) 01:05, 21 May 2011 (UTC)— Thugdog Nasty ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Just a note that this article is yet again under discussion at the biographies of living persons noticeboard. Thugdog, I will add that, "the editorial staff" as far as Wikipedia is concerned, is you, Tom, me, and anyone else that cares to comment at BLPN. There are no separate editorial staff in charge of other editors, although McGinn or his representative(s) might get more of a response if they choose to contact the Wikimedia Foundation volunteers team directly. -- Demiurge1000 ( talk) 01:25, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
Understood, and thank you. Although I imagine that there is some kind of regulator in the pipeline somewhere. I did receive a warning for speculating on Tom's affiliations, with a mild warning about banning for violating WP:OUT, so it appears that some animals are a bit more equal than others. I can't ban you, nor would I want to :) Also, in theory, Tom and I could undo each others edits in perpetuity, hundreds of times per day, and eventually I assume that someone would have to make a judgement call. Otherwise, it would be a minute-by-minute mess. I'm a fan and user of Wikipedia and have no interest in this whatsoever (I cannot speak for Tom), so hopefully there is a way to reach consensus in talk. If two determined people have completely opposing positions on an issue, some form of dispute resolution should exist to maintain the integrity of the editorial system. As it is, he who monitors the page most frequently has editorial control,and I doubt this is the intended outcome. Thugdog Nasty ( talk) 02:14, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
Please note that the Federal Courts upheld the Seattle gun ban. http://www.king5.com/home/Times-Federal-judge-upholds-Seattles-ban-on-guns-in-parks-87488952.html?commentPage=1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dallas61 ( talk • contribs) 02:02, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
If anyone doubts the use of the Chamber of Commerce's statements as a reliable source for statements of the C of C - the noticeboard is at WP:RS/N. Collect ( talk) 16:23, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
Once again this article has been raised as an issue at WP:BLPN. Reading over it, I'm not surprised - the article seems to take a strong political slant against its subject, with just an occasional sentence allowing in any viewpoint in support of him. The comment earlier in this talk page about BLP only applying to libellous or openly pejorative comments about living persons is rather concerning. As an example of a bio of a rather similar politician (who also has plenty of controversies and even has neutrality tags on parts of his article) it's worth comparing Ken Livingstone - that article does a far better job of presenting a neutral perspective covering all aspects of the subject with due weight. -- Demiurge1000 ( talk) 19:31, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
Barring some additional discussion or further imput in the next few days I'm going to remove the tag. It's been more than a week and the tag was placed at the behest of a anon complaint on the BLP noticeboard. This seems to have run out of steam but this issue can always be reopened at a latter date, here preferably. TomPointTwo ( talk) 22:01, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
With the recent addition of an NPOV tag and a couple complaints on the BLP noticeboard I figured I'd make a note here about opinion polling. I just added a new non-partisan poll from Elway. It's pretty devastating but it's also clearly relevant and neutral. I know there's been a few complains about Elway so I linked out to their article which documents those complaints. I've added the poll to the lede because I think it belongs there, in brief form, as the only polling available and I can't think of a more appropriate place to put it. If anyone has a problem with that let me know and maybe we can find a different spot for it. On that note though I'd like a polling subsection but I can't seem to find any other non-partisan, scientific, professional polls. If anyone knows of where we can find some please, please let me know so we can get a subsection with some actual empirical data going. TomPointTwo ( talk) 19:03, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
Found a couple. [3] [4] I'll try and find an actual data set for the first and keep digging for others then start a new section. TomPointTwo ( talk) 19:58, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
"As mayor he has experienced political conflict dealing with local unions, developers, the downtown community, moderate environmentalists, businesses and other groups in the city on the subject of the tunnel."
Are we to believe that the entire "downtown community" is conflicted with McGinn? How is that term even defined? Are we supposed to believe that "businesses" are all conflicted with him? Can we define "moderate environmentalist"? Is not "other groups in the city" broad and vague? Are editorial blogs considered neutral quotable sources that should feature in a prominent place such as an intro?
Tom seems to be in love with certain sources, and he finds them to be "credible", but would a Fox News article be appropriate for an leadoff paragraph on Barack Obama's page? Seattle has similarly slanted outlets.
This is not encyclopedic. If the author feels so strongly about it's inclusion, perhaps it can be moved to a "controversy" section which is somewhat common when a figure is controversial.
It seems odd to put a policy piece statement such as the tunnel where it is. It's an important issue, but only one of many.
Thugdog Nasty ( talk) 02:53, 24 May 2011 (UTC)— Thugdog Nasty ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
"McGinn ... won election with the support of a coalition of environmentalists, biking advocates and entertainment interests."
I know two mothers that voted for McGinn. Did he win with the support of mothers? I know a few black people that voted for McGinn. Did he win with the support of black people? Did he win with support from a "coalition" of black mothers? I know someone with the name of "Sam" that voted for McGinn. Did he win with the support of Sams? If so, why are they not listed? It is estimated that 2% of people in Seattle bike to work. Hardly enough of a demo to win an election. It is a fairly indisputable statistical fact that the majority of people that vote for McGinn drive cars. Therefore, McGinn won with the support of motorists. Why are they not listed?
Need I go on?
Thugdog Nasty ( talk) 03:05, 24 May 2011 (UTC)— Thugdog Nasty ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
You dismissed the previous comments without addressing them. What existing section would you prefer this in? The comments were signed with four tildes (look up). Please familiarize yourself with the WP:OUT policy as you have already been instructed to do and perhaps edit your comments to bring them in line with that policy. I find it difficult to take constructive advice from someone that does not comply with the rules he/she "soapboxes". I think it would be counterproductive to admonish each other for procedural issues due to conflicts of interests. Thank you. Thugdog Nasty ( talk) 03:25, 24 May 2011 (UTC)— Thugdog Nasty ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Are these these paragraphs you use to support your editorialized intro?
"Not a political party, McGinn’s loose coalition ranges from nightclub owners and musicians, who rocked the Crocodile Cafe last fall to raise funds for his campaign, to the 13,000-member Cascade Bicycle Club, which backs the mayor’s plan to add bike lanes over the opposition of truckers.
Whether this coalition—tilted to the young and globally conscious—will permanently displace the old guard remains to be seen. But it’s helping steer decisions that matter to the business community, on everything from policing to transportation. And it’s no longer dismissed as fringe.
“These new actors are legitimate, numerically important and politically very skilled,” said David Olson, University of Washington emeritus political science professor. “So to that extent, we’ve got a new game.” Thugdog Nasty ( talk) 03:31, 24 May 2011 (UTC)— Thugdog Nasty ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
The mayor is not "my boy". I found this response to be aggressive, offensive, and unhelpful. I am sure that you did not intend for it to be. Were the quoted paragraphs used to support the wording of the introduction? I am asking because I think that they could be rewritten in a more neutral and balanced way while using the same source which is ostensibly agreed by all to be reliable. There is no need to be hostile. I am confident that we all want to see the most neutral and balanced articles on Wikipedia. Thanks. Thugdog Nasty ( talk) 03:49, 24 May 2011 (UTC)— Thugdog Nasty ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Could we perhaps add something along the lines of "in addition other groups" or a similar wording to the list you have outlined so that it does not appear to be inclusive of all supporters? Thugdog Nasty ( talk) 03:53, 24 May 2011 (UTC)— Thugdog Nasty ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Thank you for your clarification of WP:OUT. I realize now that I was incorrectly admonished as my specificity was far less than that which you have posted. I implied that you were associated with a vague group and did not even include a URL. I will take that up with the appropriate party, using your response as a reference if you do not mind. Heretofore, I will stick to the subject at hand. A more neutral entry. Would you be open to a more balanced rewrite, starting with the suggestion above? Thugdog Nasty ( talk) 04:08, 24 May 2011 (UTC)— Thugdog Nasty ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
I just wanted to mention that I recently took several good pictures of McGinn, which are now in Commons:Category:Michael McGinn. It is possible that one of these (or perhaps a crop of one of these) would make a better picture for the article; someone may want to take a look. I leave the decision to someone else. - Jmabel | Talk 06:44, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Disclosure: Like Michael McGinn, I am a member of the Sierra Club. However, I had never heard of him until reading his Wikipedia biography a few months ago, and know nothing about Seattle municipal politics other than what I have learned while studying this article. My concerns about this article have nothing to do with the Sierra Club.
Our Policy on biographies of living people states, in part:
Tone
Criticism and praise
The quotes from WP:BLP end here, and my opinion of the article begins. This biography of a living person, the current mayor of Seattle, does not comply with our core policies on fairness and neutrality. Here are a few representative quotes from the article: "deal breaker", "political conflict", "stiff resistance", "discomfort", "stoking populist anger", "BS", "voter's ignorance", "wild accusations", "mismanaged", "alarmed", "disorganized", "makes things up", "dishonest", "impractical", "slashed", "controversial", "tone deaf", "a horror show", "scary", "mandatory doubling" "despite campaign promises", and "failure". Taken together, this group of quotes is incompatible with the neutral point of view. I am well aware that many (though not all) of these quotes are properly referenced, but the image conveyed by the selection of dozens of quotes critical of McGinn is that pretty much everyone with brains in Seattle opposes him and his policies, and almost no one has anything positive to say about him. Particularly striking is the lack of quotes from McGinn himself. Though the article contains many quotes, it has only a one-sentence quote from McGinn on marijuana legalization and a one word quote on his attitude toward bicycles. It is as if the subject of the article isn't allowed to defend himself against the wide range of accusations leveled against him in this article. And quotes from McGinn's supporters are strikingly rare in comparison to quotes from his political opponents and critics.
For some strange reason, the article devotes much more attention to McGinn's primary election victory than to his general election victory. It describes his win as an "upset" without attributing that to a reliable source. The article describes McGinn's "political conflict" with "moderate environmentalists" without a reference to a reliable source, implying that McGinn must therefore be an immoderate environmentalist. McGinn's political positions are consistently described with labels bearing negative connotations, such as "anti-tunnel stance".
The article uses the word "controversial" four times to describe McGinn aids David Hiller and Beth Hester, although the sources used as references don't use the word "controversial" to describe either of them.
The article contains misrepresentations of what the referenced source actually says. For example, the article says, "McGinn campaigned on removing control of Seattle schools from local, elected school boards and placing it under the purview of appointed officials from City Hall". The source, on the other hand, says, "In his first two years in office, he would 'work with parents, teachers, administrators...if after two years, we can't make demonstrable progress, I think it's time to take a look at city control of schools'", a much more nuanced and conditional position.
The article says McGinn has been described as "conducting a 'war on cars'". The Fox News source says, "It’s being called by some, Seattle’s war on cars". Who is the source of the "war on cars" catch phrase? "Some" people. And who is waging that war, according to some people? "Seattle", not Mike McGinn.
Another tactic used in writing this article is to take a reliable source, extract a negative nugget, and then ignore anything positive in the source. One example is State of the mayor: McGinn touts goals as he jabs at tunnel, which contains the following lines:
None of that positive tone made it into the article.
In conclusion, this article needs a dramatic rewrite with
WP:NPOV and
WP:BLP at the forefront of all editorial decisions. Otherwise, the article should be renamed
Criticisms of Michael McGinn. At least that would be an honest title.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
06:32, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
"McGinn asserts that the only way to make people change their behavior is to make it more difficult for them to drive and park." This is attributed to a FOX News broadcast. No transcript or video clip is linked. I strongly suspect that it is, at best, a hostile paraphrase of something McGinn said. If it is to remain in the article it should have a much better citation, or at least a checkable source. - Jmabel | Talk 06:35, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
Dan Springer's presumably related blog entry makes no such assertion. - Jmabel | Talk 06:57, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
Unless I'm misreading, despite extensive discussion in the article of the politics surrounding the proposed SR-99 tunnel, there is no mention of one of McGinn's main arguments against the tunnel proposal as it stands, an argument especially prominent in his continued opposition to the project once in office: the possibility that Seattle taxpayers could be hit with the bill for any overruns on a project that is not even under the city's control. Surely that should be added if the article is to be more of an encyclopedia article and less of an attack piece. - Jmabel | Talk 06:40, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
I slightly toned down "Since taking office McGinn has consistently made efforts to stop construction of the tunnel" (emphasis mine) to say repeatedly rather than consistently. The citation given is weak even for "repeatedly" (it is a 4-paragraph item about a veto threat, the same veto we discuss further down), though I think the statement is accurate. It would be good to have something that actually shows he has done something to obstruct more than once if we are going to say "repeatedly"; I don't see how we can ever neutrally say "consistently" in the article's own narrative voice, though it would be possible to cite (and attribute) a third party saying that. - Jmabel | Talk 04:35, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
Is it really relevant for a biographical article on McGinn that City Attorney Pete Holmes was of the opinion that the McGinn-supported tunnel referendum wasn't eligible for the ballot, given that Holmes was overruled, and the referendum went to the ballot? I'd really like to remove the two sentences on that. They are adequately cited for, but they seem more of a distraction than a relevant part of a biographical article. They would belong in an article on that referendum, if someone wants to write that. - Jmabel | Talk 04:57, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
Let's give it a couple of days before removing anything. I think this is a case where "be bold" is not the best advice: the article has clearly been a bit of a battleground, so I'm a bit hesitant to remove anything substantive that someone else considered relevant. But I suspect (without looking at the history) that all that was added when it was very current, and looks less important in retrospect. - 06:52, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
No other Mayor of a major city shows the majority of the vote they received in an election in the info box. Being cited does not matter. No politicians have this detail in their info box. It is just unnecessary and makes the info box too long, and is not a vital detail that should be included in the info box. It takes away from the article in a sense. What will you do next election? Include both? It is just not done, and not important enough to include. I focus almost exclusively on political pages and have never seen this before. Unless a clear majority can agree that this should be there then I see no reason to include it. Thanks. -- Politicsislife ( talk) 22:31, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
I've been way too busy to really participate in this article's rewrite (or any other serious wikipedia activity) but I ran across a profile of McGinn and his tenure in the WSJ and figured you guys would want to incorporate it into the article. He's pretty much 0 for 2 on national profiles (the other being him getting slammed in the NYT politics blog) but I'm sure it has some "bird's eye view" type relevance. Cheers, guys. TomPointTwo ( talk) 03:44, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
An opinion piece by Matthew Kaminski or any other pundit is a reliable source for only one thing, and that is to describe Matthew Kaminski's opinion (or any pundit's opinion). It can't be used to state or imply that McGinn is widely unpopular, but only to report accurately that Matthew Kaminski doesn't like McGinn. If included, we ought to balance Kaminski's opinion by quoting a pundit who does like McGinn. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 18:52, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
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This article is all over map regarding past and present tense. McGinn hasn't been mayor for about 3 three years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:3023:808:200:79A9:B230:20D5:D587 ( talk) 00:20, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
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Hey all, I have moved the news about his son to early life section, even though it warrants a specific personal life section. It was in the lede, which is not the place for it per WP:LEDE. — The Herald (Benison) ( talk) 11:04, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
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This article needs to have information about how McGinn was defeated for reelection. The page doesn't mention Murray or the 2013 election at all. Without reading the sides closely one might think he is still mayor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.205.133.220 ( talk) 14:36, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
There is a discussion about this article on the BLP Noticeboard [1]. I ask other interested editors to weigh in. Specifically, my efforts to rectify the situation were reverted here [2]. Qworty ( talk) 11:15, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
TomPointTwo is clearly biased and his edits are so slanted that no reasonable person can accept his claims of neutrality. That his edits have stood this long are ridiculous. He has obvious hostility against the subject and should be barred from further edits. Selectively quoting reporters opinions and musstating pol ressults is clear bad faith. In the interesy of reason, we cannot allow them to stand. We are not fans of McGinn, but we are fans of Wikipedia neutrality. TomPointTwo will need to make hate his full time job if he wants it to remain spewed across wikipedia as we shall take it down every time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.126.250.58 ( talk) 13:25, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
Why is TomPointTwo such an "interested editor"? There seems to be a heavy conflict of interest as the only information offered by this author is that which is decidedly negative. Request removal as an editor in the interests of neutrality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.135.36.99 ( talk) 14:57, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
TomPointTwo, we all appreciate your efforts, however, they are not balanced. Polls and statistics can be interpreted a number of ways, and you have shown a lack of acceptance for any interpretations other than you own. In fact, you often "correct" them to your own interpretations within minutes of them being changed. There is a difference between "interest" and "obsession", and when someone takes an interest in a public figure's page to the extent that you have, there are usually ulterior motives. I think it is very clear to the majority of readers that you have a specific agenda, and you are using Wikipedia as a platform for that agenda. Unfortunately, this is not the place to do so. If you wish to make an anti-McGinn webpage on your own dime and on your own domain, I encourage you to do so. Unfortunately, this page is on the radar for it's rampant misuse, and it's unlikely that your own interpretation will not be the last word on the matter, regardless of how badly you want that to happen. Until a consensus is reached on the neutrality of this page, I would ask that you stop pushing the issue in the main article. At this point, your actions amount to vandalism and bad faith. Your wording is highly misleading and is taken from sources which solely support your view. They have a place in a Wikipedia article, but only in the context of balancing views. You need to take your own advice about removing material that you do not like, as this is what you have been doing ad-nauseum. Please cease. Thugdog Nasty ( talk) 19:56, 20 May 2011 (UTC)— Thugdog Nasty ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Also, Tom, please refraining from using phrases like "We have a policy", etc. It is misleading and implies that your actions and views are sanctioned by Wikipedia staff. There is serious debate and controversy as to whether your behavior is within the limits of Wikipedia guidelines. The fact of the matter is that readers/editors are not required to follow the instructions that you lay out for them. I've no doubt that you want us to follow them, but until a more impartial judge issues a decision, your requests/demands for acquiescence are hereby denied. A request for help has been issued to Wikipedia Editorial. Hopefully they will help us resolve this matter shortly. Thugdog Nasty ( talk) 19:56, 20 May 2011 (UTC)— Thugdog Nasty ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Assuming the poll is legitimate (and there is some question to that) - Why would we omit the "good" and "fair" results from the poll information? 66% rated McGinn fair or better, yet, this interpretation of the results is not allowed to stand in the article. Only "excellent" and "poor". Reason? Thugdog Nasty ( talk) 20:28, 20 May 2011 (UTC)— Thugdog Nasty ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
I am not the blogger in question, but I was made aware of this page due to that article. Be careful of WP:OUT violations as I was warned of today when I even insinuated the group with whom you may be affiliated. You seem to be knowledgeable of the rules while liberally violating them and making excuses for doing so. In any event. Is "good" also not positive? Is "fair" not in the eye of the beholder as to whether it positive, negative, or neutral. If you had wanted to include the full results, you could have, but you chose not to. Why don't you allow the reader to determine "overall lean"? It is two more entries and not more than 20-30 additional characters. In my opinion, you are drawing conclusions and leading the reader to those conclusions. Your edits are not neutral, as has been pointed out here repeatedly (read below). I am not the first person to make this observation, perhaps just the most persistent. As the most determined author who monitors the page continuously, you clearly have the upper-hand over your critics who cannot devote the time to the matter that you do. This is why you eagerly take down the Neutral notice as soon as it seems that people have become exhausted with changing your opinion (which is clearly not possible). Unfortunately, I don't think that you I will see eye to eye on this matter. This is why we need some kind of impartial ruling from the editorial staff. Whatever ruling they make and whatever guidance I receive, I will abide by, and I trust you will do the same. I will be diligent in seeking such a ruling. Have a good day. Thugdog Nasty ( talk) 01:05, 21 May 2011 (UTC)— Thugdog Nasty ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Just a note that this article is yet again under discussion at the biographies of living persons noticeboard. Thugdog, I will add that, "the editorial staff" as far as Wikipedia is concerned, is you, Tom, me, and anyone else that cares to comment at BLPN. There are no separate editorial staff in charge of other editors, although McGinn or his representative(s) might get more of a response if they choose to contact the Wikimedia Foundation volunteers team directly. -- Demiurge1000 ( talk) 01:25, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
Understood, and thank you. Although I imagine that there is some kind of regulator in the pipeline somewhere. I did receive a warning for speculating on Tom's affiliations, with a mild warning about banning for violating WP:OUT, so it appears that some animals are a bit more equal than others. I can't ban you, nor would I want to :) Also, in theory, Tom and I could undo each others edits in perpetuity, hundreds of times per day, and eventually I assume that someone would have to make a judgement call. Otherwise, it would be a minute-by-minute mess. I'm a fan and user of Wikipedia and have no interest in this whatsoever (I cannot speak for Tom), so hopefully there is a way to reach consensus in talk. If two determined people have completely opposing positions on an issue, some form of dispute resolution should exist to maintain the integrity of the editorial system. As it is, he who monitors the page most frequently has editorial control,and I doubt this is the intended outcome. Thugdog Nasty ( talk) 02:14, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
Please note that the Federal Courts upheld the Seattle gun ban. http://www.king5.com/home/Times-Federal-judge-upholds-Seattles-ban-on-guns-in-parks-87488952.html?commentPage=1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dallas61 ( talk • contribs) 02:02, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
If anyone doubts the use of the Chamber of Commerce's statements as a reliable source for statements of the C of C - the noticeboard is at WP:RS/N. Collect ( talk) 16:23, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
Once again this article has been raised as an issue at WP:BLPN. Reading over it, I'm not surprised - the article seems to take a strong political slant against its subject, with just an occasional sentence allowing in any viewpoint in support of him. The comment earlier in this talk page about BLP only applying to libellous or openly pejorative comments about living persons is rather concerning. As an example of a bio of a rather similar politician (who also has plenty of controversies and even has neutrality tags on parts of his article) it's worth comparing Ken Livingstone - that article does a far better job of presenting a neutral perspective covering all aspects of the subject with due weight. -- Demiurge1000 ( talk) 19:31, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
Barring some additional discussion or further imput in the next few days I'm going to remove the tag. It's been more than a week and the tag was placed at the behest of a anon complaint on the BLP noticeboard. This seems to have run out of steam but this issue can always be reopened at a latter date, here preferably. TomPointTwo ( talk) 22:01, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
With the recent addition of an NPOV tag and a couple complaints on the BLP noticeboard I figured I'd make a note here about opinion polling. I just added a new non-partisan poll from Elway. It's pretty devastating but it's also clearly relevant and neutral. I know there's been a few complains about Elway so I linked out to their article which documents those complaints. I've added the poll to the lede because I think it belongs there, in brief form, as the only polling available and I can't think of a more appropriate place to put it. If anyone has a problem with that let me know and maybe we can find a different spot for it. On that note though I'd like a polling subsection but I can't seem to find any other non-partisan, scientific, professional polls. If anyone knows of where we can find some please, please let me know so we can get a subsection with some actual empirical data going. TomPointTwo ( talk) 19:03, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
Found a couple. [3] [4] I'll try and find an actual data set for the first and keep digging for others then start a new section. TomPointTwo ( talk) 19:58, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
"As mayor he has experienced political conflict dealing with local unions, developers, the downtown community, moderate environmentalists, businesses and other groups in the city on the subject of the tunnel."
Are we to believe that the entire "downtown community" is conflicted with McGinn? How is that term even defined? Are we supposed to believe that "businesses" are all conflicted with him? Can we define "moderate environmentalist"? Is not "other groups in the city" broad and vague? Are editorial blogs considered neutral quotable sources that should feature in a prominent place such as an intro?
Tom seems to be in love with certain sources, and he finds them to be "credible", but would a Fox News article be appropriate for an leadoff paragraph on Barack Obama's page? Seattle has similarly slanted outlets.
This is not encyclopedic. If the author feels so strongly about it's inclusion, perhaps it can be moved to a "controversy" section which is somewhat common when a figure is controversial.
It seems odd to put a policy piece statement such as the tunnel where it is. It's an important issue, but only one of many.
Thugdog Nasty ( talk) 02:53, 24 May 2011 (UTC)— Thugdog Nasty ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
"McGinn ... won election with the support of a coalition of environmentalists, biking advocates and entertainment interests."
I know two mothers that voted for McGinn. Did he win with the support of mothers? I know a few black people that voted for McGinn. Did he win with the support of black people? Did he win with support from a "coalition" of black mothers? I know someone with the name of "Sam" that voted for McGinn. Did he win with the support of Sams? If so, why are they not listed? It is estimated that 2% of people in Seattle bike to work. Hardly enough of a demo to win an election. It is a fairly indisputable statistical fact that the majority of people that vote for McGinn drive cars. Therefore, McGinn won with the support of motorists. Why are they not listed?
Need I go on?
Thugdog Nasty ( talk) 03:05, 24 May 2011 (UTC)— Thugdog Nasty ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
You dismissed the previous comments without addressing them. What existing section would you prefer this in? The comments were signed with four tildes (look up). Please familiarize yourself with the WP:OUT policy as you have already been instructed to do and perhaps edit your comments to bring them in line with that policy. I find it difficult to take constructive advice from someone that does not comply with the rules he/she "soapboxes". I think it would be counterproductive to admonish each other for procedural issues due to conflicts of interests. Thank you. Thugdog Nasty ( talk) 03:25, 24 May 2011 (UTC)— Thugdog Nasty ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Are these these paragraphs you use to support your editorialized intro?
"Not a political party, McGinn’s loose coalition ranges from nightclub owners and musicians, who rocked the Crocodile Cafe last fall to raise funds for his campaign, to the 13,000-member Cascade Bicycle Club, which backs the mayor’s plan to add bike lanes over the opposition of truckers.
Whether this coalition—tilted to the young and globally conscious—will permanently displace the old guard remains to be seen. But it’s helping steer decisions that matter to the business community, on everything from policing to transportation. And it’s no longer dismissed as fringe.
“These new actors are legitimate, numerically important and politically very skilled,” said David Olson, University of Washington emeritus political science professor. “So to that extent, we’ve got a new game.” Thugdog Nasty ( talk) 03:31, 24 May 2011 (UTC)— Thugdog Nasty ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
The mayor is not "my boy". I found this response to be aggressive, offensive, and unhelpful. I am sure that you did not intend for it to be. Were the quoted paragraphs used to support the wording of the introduction? I am asking because I think that they could be rewritten in a more neutral and balanced way while using the same source which is ostensibly agreed by all to be reliable. There is no need to be hostile. I am confident that we all want to see the most neutral and balanced articles on Wikipedia. Thanks. Thugdog Nasty ( talk) 03:49, 24 May 2011 (UTC)— Thugdog Nasty ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Could we perhaps add something along the lines of "in addition other groups" or a similar wording to the list you have outlined so that it does not appear to be inclusive of all supporters? Thugdog Nasty ( talk) 03:53, 24 May 2011 (UTC)— Thugdog Nasty ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Thank you for your clarification of WP:OUT. I realize now that I was incorrectly admonished as my specificity was far less than that which you have posted. I implied that you were associated with a vague group and did not even include a URL. I will take that up with the appropriate party, using your response as a reference if you do not mind. Heretofore, I will stick to the subject at hand. A more neutral entry. Would you be open to a more balanced rewrite, starting with the suggestion above? Thugdog Nasty ( talk) 04:08, 24 May 2011 (UTC)— Thugdog Nasty ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
I just wanted to mention that I recently took several good pictures of McGinn, which are now in Commons:Category:Michael McGinn. It is possible that one of these (or perhaps a crop of one of these) would make a better picture for the article; someone may want to take a look. I leave the decision to someone else. - Jmabel | Talk 06:44, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Disclosure: Like Michael McGinn, I am a member of the Sierra Club. However, I had never heard of him until reading his Wikipedia biography a few months ago, and know nothing about Seattle municipal politics other than what I have learned while studying this article. My concerns about this article have nothing to do with the Sierra Club.
Our Policy on biographies of living people states, in part:
Tone
Criticism and praise
The quotes from WP:BLP end here, and my opinion of the article begins. This biography of a living person, the current mayor of Seattle, does not comply with our core policies on fairness and neutrality. Here are a few representative quotes from the article: "deal breaker", "political conflict", "stiff resistance", "discomfort", "stoking populist anger", "BS", "voter's ignorance", "wild accusations", "mismanaged", "alarmed", "disorganized", "makes things up", "dishonest", "impractical", "slashed", "controversial", "tone deaf", "a horror show", "scary", "mandatory doubling" "despite campaign promises", and "failure". Taken together, this group of quotes is incompatible with the neutral point of view. I am well aware that many (though not all) of these quotes are properly referenced, but the image conveyed by the selection of dozens of quotes critical of McGinn is that pretty much everyone with brains in Seattle opposes him and his policies, and almost no one has anything positive to say about him. Particularly striking is the lack of quotes from McGinn himself. Though the article contains many quotes, it has only a one-sentence quote from McGinn on marijuana legalization and a one word quote on his attitude toward bicycles. It is as if the subject of the article isn't allowed to defend himself against the wide range of accusations leveled against him in this article. And quotes from McGinn's supporters are strikingly rare in comparison to quotes from his political opponents and critics.
For some strange reason, the article devotes much more attention to McGinn's primary election victory than to his general election victory. It describes his win as an "upset" without attributing that to a reliable source. The article describes McGinn's "political conflict" with "moderate environmentalists" without a reference to a reliable source, implying that McGinn must therefore be an immoderate environmentalist. McGinn's political positions are consistently described with labels bearing negative connotations, such as "anti-tunnel stance".
The article uses the word "controversial" four times to describe McGinn aids David Hiller and Beth Hester, although the sources used as references don't use the word "controversial" to describe either of them.
The article contains misrepresentations of what the referenced source actually says. For example, the article says, "McGinn campaigned on removing control of Seattle schools from local, elected school boards and placing it under the purview of appointed officials from City Hall". The source, on the other hand, says, "In his first two years in office, he would 'work with parents, teachers, administrators...if after two years, we can't make demonstrable progress, I think it's time to take a look at city control of schools'", a much more nuanced and conditional position.
The article says McGinn has been described as "conducting a 'war on cars'". The Fox News source says, "It’s being called by some, Seattle’s war on cars". Who is the source of the "war on cars" catch phrase? "Some" people. And who is waging that war, according to some people? "Seattle", not Mike McGinn.
Another tactic used in writing this article is to take a reliable source, extract a negative nugget, and then ignore anything positive in the source. One example is State of the mayor: McGinn touts goals as he jabs at tunnel, which contains the following lines:
None of that positive tone made it into the article.
In conclusion, this article needs a dramatic rewrite with
WP:NPOV and
WP:BLP at the forefront of all editorial decisions. Otherwise, the article should be renamed
Criticisms of Michael McGinn. At least that would be an honest title.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
06:32, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
"McGinn asserts that the only way to make people change their behavior is to make it more difficult for them to drive and park." This is attributed to a FOX News broadcast. No transcript or video clip is linked. I strongly suspect that it is, at best, a hostile paraphrase of something McGinn said. If it is to remain in the article it should have a much better citation, or at least a checkable source. - Jmabel | Talk 06:35, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
Dan Springer's presumably related blog entry makes no such assertion. - Jmabel | Talk 06:57, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
Unless I'm misreading, despite extensive discussion in the article of the politics surrounding the proposed SR-99 tunnel, there is no mention of one of McGinn's main arguments against the tunnel proposal as it stands, an argument especially prominent in his continued opposition to the project once in office: the possibility that Seattle taxpayers could be hit with the bill for any overruns on a project that is not even under the city's control. Surely that should be added if the article is to be more of an encyclopedia article and less of an attack piece. - Jmabel | Talk 06:40, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
I slightly toned down "Since taking office McGinn has consistently made efforts to stop construction of the tunnel" (emphasis mine) to say repeatedly rather than consistently. The citation given is weak even for "repeatedly" (it is a 4-paragraph item about a veto threat, the same veto we discuss further down), though I think the statement is accurate. It would be good to have something that actually shows he has done something to obstruct more than once if we are going to say "repeatedly"; I don't see how we can ever neutrally say "consistently" in the article's own narrative voice, though it would be possible to cite (and attribute) a third party saying that. - Jmabel | Talk 04:35, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
Is it really relevant for a biographical article on McGinn that City Attorney Pete Holmes was of the opinion that the McGinn-supported tunnel referendum wasn't eligible for the ballot, given that Holmes was overruled, and the referendum went to the ballot? I'd really like to remove the two sentences on that. They are adequately cited for, but they seem more of a distraction than a relevant part of a biographical article. They would belong in an article on that referendum, if someone wants to write that. - Jmabel | Talk 04:57, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
Let's give it a couple of days before removing anything. I think this is a case where "be bold" is not the best advice: the article has clearly been a bit of a battleground, so I'm a bit hesitant to remove anything substantive that someone else considered relevant. But I suspect (without looking at the history) that all that was added when it was very current, and looks less important in retrospect. - 06:52, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
No other Mayor of a major city shows the majority of the vote they received in an election in the info box. Being cited does not matter. No politicians have this detail in their info box. It is just unnecessary and makes the info box too long, and is not a vital detail that should be included in the info box. It takes away from the article in a sense. What will you do next election? Include both? It is just not done, and not important enough to include. I focus almost exclusively on political pages and have never seen this before. Unless a clear majority can agree that this should be there then I see no reason to include it. Thanks. -- Politicsislife ( talk) 22:31, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
I've been way too busy to really participate in this article's rewrite (or any other serious wikipedia activity) but I ran across a profile of McGinn and his tenure in the WSJ and figured you guys would want to incorporate it into the article. He's pretty much 0 for 2 on national profiles (the other being him getting slammed in the NYT politics blog) but I'm sure it has some "bird's eye view" type relevance. Cheers, guys. TomPointTwo ( talk) 03:44, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
An opinion piece by Matthew Kaminski or any other pundit is a reliable source for only one thing, and that is to describe Matthew Kaminski's opinion (or any pundit's opinion). It can't be used to state or imply that McGinn is widely unpopular, but only to report accurately that Matthew Kaminski doesn't like McGinn. If included, we ought to balance Kaminski's opinion by quoting a pundit who does like McGinn. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 18:52, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
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This article is all over map regarding past and present tense. McGinn hasn't been mayor for about 3 three years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:3023:808:200:79A9:B230:20D5:D587 ( talk) 00:20, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
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Hey all, I have moved the news about his son to early life section, even though it warrants a specific personal life section. It was in the lede, which is not the place for it per WP:LEDE. — The Herald (Benison) ( talk) 11:04, 7 April 2024 (UTC)