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Right now, the article fails the breadth requirement. There's going to have to be some information on his personal life. Suggestions include schooling, family, marriage/dating, children, religion, or anything of that nature.
I've had a little go at expanding this, but it'll be difficult finding information like this on a relatively minor player. Will have a look for some sources, but I'm not sure if a great amount of details on personal life are necessarily required at the
criteria.
Mattythewhite (
talk)
07:16, 8 September 2008 (UTC)reply
I'd say it is covered in "broad in coverage". The article is about a person. His career is definitely an important aspect of his life, but so is who he is beyond that.
Nikki31116:01, 8 September 2008 (UTC)reply
Fair enough, but the footnote for criterion 3 (a) notes "it allows shorter articles, articles that do not necessarily outline every part of the topic, and broad overviews of large topics.". As I say though, I'll have a look for some content to include.
Mattythewhite (
talk)
16:06, 8 September 2008 (UTC)reply
What all did you add? All I see is that his family is N. Irish. If that's all that has been added, then I separate section would be un-necessary for one sentence. Also, I have this watchlisted, so you can ask me questions or comment here rather than my talk page if that is easier.
Nikki31100:08, 11 September 2008 (UTC)reply
Well, I can't see there being anything else to add to this article, and to be honest I think I did quite well to even find out that his family is Northern Irish. I assume you don't deem this to be sufficient to pass the article. But I disagree that a bulging personal life section is necessary, when I believe everything I'm ever going to find about this side of the subject has now been included in the article.
Mattythewhite (
talk)
06:48, 11 September 2008 (UTC)reply
I wouldn't say all the replies at that section you started really agreed. But I still believe that footnote [3] of the GA criteria, "This requirement is significantly weaker than the "comprehensiveness" required by WP:FAC; it allows shorter articles, articles that do not necessarily outline every part of the topic, and broad overviews of large topics.", would allow an article that is not particularly comprehensive in terms of a subject's personal life to be allowed under the GA criteria. Besides, I've seen several articles, like
Simon Wormull and
Ronnie Wallwork, which have only recently passed as GAs and don't even seem to have the same amount of personal details as the Ingham article.
Mattythewhite (
talk)
06:53, 12 September 2008 (UTC)reply
2nd opinion
I've asked for a second opinion. For anybody who comes to give one, the issue is whether or not the article needs more personal information to fulfill the broadness criteria of GA.
Nikki31122:38, 12 September 2008 (UTC)reply
This is not an official "second opinion" as I am probably an outlier. However, I have passed an extremely comprehensive articles on an obscure Olympic Gold Medal sprinter for which there is almost no Personal information available. And what was available was entwined with his professional life. Even a notorious baseball player like
Rickey Henderson has relatively little available about his personal life. Athletes are not movie stars, except for someone like
Dennis Rodman. Their personal life is kept relatively private for the most part, in my experience. Why should a description of an athlete's career be considered a "biography" in the official sense?
O.J. Simpson's first several arrests for domestic violence were virtually not reported by the press. If he had not been arrested for murder, we probably would never know about them. —
Mattisse (
Talk)
13:22, 13 September 2008 (UTC)reply
Actually, the
Ricky Henderson has quite a bit about his early life, personal life, and thoughts about his career. I just want something that makes the article more than a list of stats/wins/losses. I'm not saying that every little detail of his life be included, just a little something more than is there currently.
Nikki31115:20, 13 September 2008 (UTC)reply
Yes, but perhaps that's because Rickey Henderson has been given more widespread coverage than Michael Ingham. That kind of information just hasn't been made available.
Mattythewhite (
talk)
15:31, 13 September 2008 (UTC)reply
With my experience in writing FAs and GAs, lack of information isn't an excuse. Some articles just don't have the information required to be GA, so they can't be GA. Would a movie article lacking information on reception and sales be a GA even if that information wasn't available? No.
Nikki31118:15, 13 September 2008 (UTC)reply
But I'm sure that's more of a key aspect to that type of article, and one which can easily be sourced. Whereas, I'm not sure if personal info is really that relevant and urgent for a footballer to meet GA requirements. Obviously, more depth and detail is vital for an article to successfully make it through the FA process, but GA allows articles to be more broad and generic in the information they include.
Mattythewhite (
talk)
18:45, 13 September 2008 (UTC)reply
It is required because it is a biography of the person. For the article to be FA, I'd expect very detailed information on his early life, family, relationships, schooling, etc (i.e. comprehensive). For GA, I just expect a sentence or two, which is quite a bit less than comprehensive. At least, can you include some more information on his injuries or some quotes related to his thoughts on major aspects of his career to break up the career stats? I've done some googling just now, so I know the man has talked about things like that.
Nikki31118:50, 13 September 2008 (UTC)reply
I've done a bit of expanding with some non-"statistical" information, but could you provide some of these links that you've found on this Google search?
Mattythewhite (
talk)
19:10, 13 September 2008 (UTC)reply
Matty, I have been looking at Newsbank, an online resource with full-text content of local and regional newspapers; it's useful for paper references that are not online. Anyway, I have found this snippet, "GRETNA have given Irish keeper Michael Ingram the chance to win a move to the SPL. The former Sunderland and Wrexham shot-stopper played as a trialist in last night's pre-season friendly against Welsh champions TNS. Gretna have turned to the 26-year-old, who is also wanted by Bury, after their move to land experienced keeper Tony Caig hit a brick wall. Director of football Mick Wadsworth said: "Michael trained with us on Monday and we will see what happens over the rest of the week. "We would still like to bring Tony Caig in but Vancouver Whitecaps will not release him.", published in The Express (London) on July 11, 2007. Would that be useful? --
Malcolmxl5 (
talk)
11:26, 14 September 2008 (UTC)reply
I've also found a little snippet that said that he lived "...almost in the shadow of the Cliftonville ground...", when he played for them. This is from the News of the World in 1998. Would that be useful? --
Malcolmxl5 (
talk)
12:45, 14 September 2008 (UTC)reply
It's surprising! Do they have a Northern Ireland edition perhaps? Anyway, here's a snippet about having played for Malachians: "Ingham joined Cliftonville from the amateur side Malachians a year ago and earned him a Northern Ireland Under-18 cap against the Republic." (The Sun, 20/5/99) --
Malcolmxl5 (
talk)
13:56, 14 September 2008 (UTC)reply
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or
poorly sourcedmust be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to
this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following
WikiProjects:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject England, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
England on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EnglandWikipedia:WikiProject EnglandTemplate:WikiProject EnglandEngland-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Football, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Association football on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FootballWikipedia:WikiProject FootballTemplate:WikiProject Footballfootball articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IrelandWikipedia:WikiProject IrelandTemplate:WikiProject IrelandIreland articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Lancashire and Cumbria, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Lancashire and
Cumbria on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Lancashire and CumbriaWikipedia:WikiProject Lancashire and CumbriaTemplate:WikiProject Lancashire and CumbriaLancashire and Cumbria articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Northern Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Northern Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Northern IrelandWikipedia:WikiProject Northern IrelandTemplate:WikiProject Northern IrelandNorthern Ireland-related articles
Right now, the article fails the breadth requirement. There's going to have to be some information on his personal life. Suggestions include schooling, family, marriage/dating, children, religion, or anything of that nature.
I've had a little go at expanding this, but it'll be difficult finding information like this on a relatively minor player. Will have a look for some sources, but I'm not sure if a great amount of details on personal life are necessarily required at the
criteria.
Mattythewhite (
talk)
07:16, 8 September 2008 (UTC)reply
I'd say it is covered in "broad in coverage". The article is about a person. His career is definitely an important aspect of his life, but so is who he is beyond that.
Nikki31116:01, 8 September 2008 (UTC)reply
Fair enough, but the footnote for criterion 3 (a) notes "it allows shorter articles, articles that do not necessarily outline every part of the topic, and broad overviews of large topics.". As I say though, I'll have a look for some content to include.
Mattythewhite (
talk)
16:06, 8 September 2008 (UTC)reply
What all did you add? All I see is that his family is N. Irish. If that's all that has been added, then I separate section would be un-necessary for one sentence. Also, I have this watchlisted, so you can ask me questions or comment here rather than my talk page if that is easier.
Nikki31100:08, 11 September 2008 (UTC)reply
Well, I can't see there being anything else to add to this article, and to be honest I think I did quite well to even find out that his family is Northern Irish. I assume you don't deem this to be sufficient to pass the article. But I disagree that a bulging personal life section is necessary, when I believe everything I'm ever going to find about this side of the subject has now been included in the article.
Mattythewhite (
talk)
06:48, 11 September 2008 (UTC)reply
I wouldn't say all the replies at that section you started really agreed. But I still believe that footnote [3] of the GA criteria, "This requirement is significantly weaker than the "comprehensiveness" required by WP:FAC; it allows shorter articles, articles that do not necessarily outline every part of the topic, and broad overviews of large topics.", would allow an article that is not particularly comprehensive in terms of a subject's personal life to be allowed under the GA criteria. Besides, I've seen several articles, like
Simon Wormull and
Ronnie Wallwork, which have only recently passed as GAs and don't even seem to have the same amount of personal details as the Ingham article.
Mattythewhite (
talk)
06:53, 12 September 2008 (UTC)reply
2nd opinion
I've asked for a second opinion. For anybody who comes to give one, the issue is whether or not the article needs more personal information to fulfill the broadness criteria of GA.
Nikki31122:38, 12 September 2008 (UTC)reply
This is not an official "second opinion" as I am probably an outlier. However, I have passed an extremely comprehensive articles on an obscure Olympic Gold Medal sprinter for which there is almost no Personal information available. And what was available was entwined with his professional life. Even a notorious baseball player like
Rickey Henderson has relatively little available about his personal life. Athletes are not movie stars, except for someone like
Dennis Rodman. Their personal life is kept relatively private for the most part, in my experience. Why should a description of an athlete's career be considered a "biography" in the official sense?
O.J. Simpson's first several arrests for domestic violence were virtually not reported by the press. If he had not been arrested for murder, we probably would never know about them. —
Mattisse (
Talk)
13:22, 13 September 2008 (UTC)reply
Actually, the
Ricky Henderson has quite a bit about his early life, personal life, and thoughts about his career. I just want something that makes the article more than a list of stats/wins/losses. I'm not saying that every little detail of his life be included, just a little something more than is there currently.
Nikki31115:20, 13 September 2008 (UTC)reply
Yes, but perhaps that's because Rickey Henderson has been given more widespread coverage than Michael Ingham. That kind of information just hasn't been made available.
Mattythewhite (
talk)
15:31, 13 September 2008 (UTC)reply
With my experience in writing FAs and GAs, lack of information isn't an excuse. Some articles just don't have the information required to be GA, so they can't be GA. Would a movie article lacking information on reception and sales be a GA even if that information wasn't available? No.
Nikki31118:15, 13 September 2008 (UTC)reply
But I'm sure that's more of a key aspect to that type of article, and one which can easily be sourced. Whereas, I'm not sure if personal info is really that relevant and urgent for a footballer to meet GA requirements. Obviously, more depth and detail is vital for an article to successfully make it through the FA process, but GA allows articles to be more broad and generic in the information they include.
Mattythewhite (
talk)
18:45, 13 September 2008 (UTC)reply
It is required because it is a biography of the person. For the article to be FA, I'd expect very detailed information on his early life, family, relationships, schooling, etc (i.e. comprehensive). For GA, I just expect a sentence or two, which is quite a bit less than comprehensive. At least, can you include some more information on his injuries or some quotes related to his thoughts on major aspects of his career to break up the career stats? I've done some googling just now, so I know the man has talked about things like that.
Nikki31118:50, 13 September 2008 (UTC)reply
I've done a bit of expanding with some non-"statistical" information, but could you provide some of these links that you've found on this Google search?
Mattythewhite (
talk)
19:10, 13 September 2008 (UTC)reply
Matty, I have been looking at Newsbank, an online resource with full-text content of local and regional newspapers; it's useful for paper references that are not online. Anyway, I have found this snippet, "GRETNA have given Irish keeper Michael Ingram the chance to win a move to the SPL. The former Sunderland and Wrexham shot-stopper played as a trialist in last night's pre-season friendly against Welsh champions TNS. Gretna have turned to the 26-year-old, who is also wanted by Bury, after their move to land experienced keeper Tony Caig hit a brick wall. Director of football Mick Wadsworth said: "Michael trained with us on Monday and we will see what happens over the rest of the week. "We would still like to bring Tony Caig in but Vancouver Whitecaps will not release him.", published in The Express (London) on July 11, 2007. Would that be useful? --
Malcolmxl5 (
talk)
11:26, 14 September 2008 (UTC)reply
I've also found a little snippet that said that he lived "...almost in the shadow of the Cliftonville ground...", when he played for them. This is from the News of the World in 1998. Would that be useful? --
Malcolmxl5 (
talk)
12:45, 14 September 2008 (UTC)reply
It's surprising! Do they have a Northern Ireland edition perhaps? Anyway, here's a snippet about having played for Malachians: "Ingham joined Cliftonville from the amateur side Malachians a year ago and earned him a Northern Ireland Under-18 cap against the Republic." (The Sun, 20/5/99) --
Malcolmxl5 (
talk)
13:56, 14 September 2008 (UTC)reply