![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
-Reviewing these edits, it seems the monitors of this area are using it as their personal vendetta, striking out opposition etc, and abusing their priveleges as administrators with frivilous warnings and attacks. Shame. -Eddie
I have been informed that I broke neutrality in mentioning that Michael Ignatieff has repeatedly and explicitly stated his opposition to all forms of torture. This is pretty shocking, considering despite repeated criticisms, the Wikipedia Ignatieff page has been the most flagrant example of failed neutrality in this whole operation (only cleaned up after his leadership run completed, interestingly). That a man who built a career over several decades is allowed to be represented in terms of a few select political incidents over a period of months is one thing. It has escaped your careful standards nevertheless. But to suggest that at the very least there is not a clear debate between ONE paragraph in "The Lesser Evil" and the entire article in Prospect Magazine, as well as the famous CSPAN interview in which he states his opposition to coercive interrogation, is pathetic. Frankly I am shocked to see someone have the gall to suggest that allowing the previous privileging of one paragraph in such a way is somehow neutral. I did not professionally cite indeed, because I knew it would not stay up nor do I consider it worth my time, as this incident has proved some wikipedia monitor will surely notice. So the error you found was say "quality standards" or whatnot. But get it right. My facts are correct, and that political operatives have been able to co-opt this page for so long is really cause for you to be ashamed.
"Joshuapaquin" should thus keep his opinions to himself. But perhaps this is what happens when you have college kids editing a supposed "dictionary." Really this proves that Wikipedia is certainly an entertaining website (as you know from monitoring of personal IPs, I read it often) but nothing more.
I am interested to know how re-writing the exact same thing as I but adding the citation (which of course you were unable to find without me pointing you toward it) is somehow more neutral? Should I have mentioned that he also has been credited with supporting torture, despite it already being written directly above what I wrote? Nor is the incredibly off base wording that the "lesser evils" in the book's title refers to use of torture. Rather, Ignatieff clearly states that war itself, that violence (including situations such as WWII) include a lesser evil element. But of course you are not political scholars obviously. Know what you are speaking about before wasting my time.
I am assuming this is the talk page and thus an appropriate forum for this. I could care less though, I won't be editing any more since it appears to be a waste of time. But please, try and take this sad volunteer job more seriously in the future. Sadly, however, despite chiding me my edit seriously advanced the cause of neutrality on this webpage.
"I think you can distinguish between torture and coercive interrogation. I think there are forms of coercive interrogation that stop short of the torture standard. As a matter of analytic clarity, I think it’s a mistake for the Human Rights community to say anything beyond name, rank and serial number, that’s coercive, equates to torture. We do ourselves, in making these arguments, no good in obliterating the distinction between courses of interrogation and torture. There are forms of repetitive, recursive interrogation techniques that do not involve physical violence, but involve psychological stress that do not involve the kinds of line that cause, it seems to me, unjustifiable psychological stress... there may be ways of putting people through severe recursive, non-physical, harassing interrogating that stops short of torture, stops short of this kind of lasting psychological abuse that we simply may need to use if we’re dealing with a high level suspect, such as the leader of the people running the beheading videos in Iraq. I can’t find myself siding with those who simply take an absolutist moral perfectionist human rights stand on this. I think it’s a problem of finding a small category of coercive interrogation techniques that will get us intelligence results without dishonouring the United States, and shaming the operators.The reality is that torture does work, that’s the problem. It works if you’re objective is timely information. The right way to deal with this is not to permit physical methods, but to allow a mitigation excuse. If it’s time sensitive. If you have to get it now in order to protect troops or protect civilians, applying physical methods may work. That’s the problem with it. The human rights argument that it doesn’t work, it’s unnecessary, it seems to me an evasion of the real problem which is sometimes it does, if you need timely, urgent, actionable intelligence to protect other people. And there you are in what seems to me a classic lesser evil case. You can in good faith, seek to protect another human being, or a group of human beings, and to do so you have to abuse the human rights of another person. "
Could someone with access to this article fix the link to Ignatieff's talk "The Lesser Evil" (in External Links)? The correct address is http://www.cceia.org/resources/transcripts/4370.html. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.25.150.134 ( talk • contribs)
I think unprotecting this article and bringing in outside editors via peer review, etc. should solve any edit disputes. Sockpuppetry and vandalism can be dealt with through typical dispute resolution channels. Antonrojo 14:38, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I've archived all the comments that were here. If anyone wants to revive a specific discussion, all the comments are in archive 8. I think the article protection needs to stay in place at the moment due to the ongoing sockpuppet activity, but that does not need to prevent us from making changes to the article. If anyone has any edits in mind, please make suggestions on this talk page. Sarah Ewart ( Talk) 18:50, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Article has been sanitized to exclude mention of important blunders and outrageous self contradictions made by Ignatieff. 70.48.204.223 04:43, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
This source is the reputable [2] Toronto Star wherein Ignatieff says in reference to the killing of many Lebanese children "This is the kind of dirty war you're in when you have to do this and I'm not losing sleep about that." This is just 1 of many news making blunders by Ignatieff which have been sanitized from the article. The article is pov and the tag should not be removed. 64.229.28.107 14:08, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
In the U.K. people could not figure out what he was going on about. They were so happy he left the country. Many British harbour good fellings towards Canada and feel it is such a pity he ended up there. Why didn't the canadian government revoke his passport?
( uncivil comment removed) Antonrojo 04:04, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
If so, leave me a message ASAP on my talk page. I'm looking to get someone into the convention with a camera. You'll have the opportunity to photograph the candidates, hopefully one-on-one. (I think I can pull a few strings with some of the key players.) -- Zanimum 20:43, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Can someone who speaks Russian confirm this is legitimate, and not a hidden obscenity? CJCurrie 05:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
While I don't know for sure about the Quebec Liberal motion regarding Quebec as a nation, I do know that the motion by the Harper Government is regarding the Quebecois people, and not the province itself. DB 03:20, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Ignatieff resigned from the editoral and advisory board of the journal Index on Censorship in 2005 to protest an article by Conor Gearty, professor of human rights law at the London School of Economics, that excoriated Ignatieff and other liberal intellectuals who had, in Gearty's opinion, given Donald Rumsfeld "the intellectual tools with which to justify his government's expansionism."—Preceding unsigned comment added by Dave06 ( talk • contribs)
The Index on Censorship, refused to apologize to Ignatieff (or retract).
Also see the southern mutation: The Tom Friedman disease
Conor Gearty's Wikipedia article has disapeared.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Dave06 ( talk • contribs)
The article on the French language Wikipedia simply states that "he is against Kyoto", like that. I suspect great nuances on his part and numerous esoteric debates by commentators, if it has any ring of truth. Can someone shed some light on this? -- Liberlogos 14:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
What's Ignatieff going to do now? Anybody know? Shouldn't there be more interest here about Ignatieff's loss? Or at least a link to the convention item? Liberal Party of Canada leadership convention, 2006? What's going on? Canuckster 05:29, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
That's surprising news, considering Ignatieff has said that he will not run as an MP in the next election if he does not win the Party leadership.
Oh, I realise that. I was alluding to earlier comments by Michael. But thanks.
What's going on is, Michael Ignatieff's supporters, who hijacked and spun this article for the better part of a year, have stopped, now that their candidate has lost the Liberal leadership race. There is nothing more for them to do.
I've watched this article from the beginning, and it's the sickest case of political manipulation, masked as a legitimate article, I've seen on the internet thus far. And I don't exaggerate that statement.
Good riddance to them.
( uncivil comment removed) Canuckster 19:44, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
These [6] [7] removals of sourced information without discussion are out of line. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.71.122.107 ( talk • contribs)
Is this edit ok ? "Media reports that Ignatieff's 30-year absence from Canada and his initial support for the US-led invasion of Iraq played against him. [8]If not, please explain what the problem is. 70.48.205.75 14:52, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
You can not take a single media account and describe at as representative of the media in general. However, I think that it would be a fair comment that his position on Iraq may have played against him. But it would have to be described properly as speculation from some media sources. Also please remember civility. CJCurrie and Strothra's edits were not out of line. Editors will disagree, we just have to resolve it properly. It is also generally better to refer to edits rather than editors. -- JGGardiner 17:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Strotha has characterized the BBC's correspondent as "an anonymosus source" (source clearly states this view is that of their correspondent [9]). I corrected that but if Strotha wishes to justify his charectorization please do. 70.48.204.227 14:38, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
It is more accurate to describe the source as an "anonymous correspondent". To say, "The BBC speculates" is extremely misleading. The BBC didn't speculate anything, they merely reported the opinion of an anonymous "correspondent". Also, the BBC is not quoting their "correspondent in the field." They're merely quoting a "correspondent". These are big differences. Please don't try to manipulate a reference to try to make it seem like it's saying things it isn't or try to word things in a way that add more weight to your POV than the sources actually indicate. Sarah Ewart 16:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC) By the way, Ottawaman, please stop posting personal commentary about other editors. As you've been told countless times already, this talk page is for discussing the article, not Strothra, not CJ, not me, not anyone else. Sarah Ewart 16:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
There is a problem with his educational information. Mr. Ignatieff did not attend school in England, but did teach there. His graduate work was done at Harvard. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.226.60.48 ( talk) 22:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC).
I am back now and will try to collaborate in a friendly way.I have mentioned on the peer review page some additions,changes I thought were needed for the article. For some reason my talk page has been protected as has my user page , just so you are aware of that in case you wish to reach me. Since Gearty is Director of Human Rights [10] at the London School of Economics and such an important figure in the Human Rights communityI spent a lot of time trying to include this important accusations of legitimizing torture information with credible citations and with npov phraseology as well as correcting the lesser evils section to focus on exactly what Ignatieff said in his Lesser Evils op-ed rather than any interpretation of what he said. I hope there will be an assumption of good faith going forward toward my edits and I will commit to doing the same toward others. Canuckster 14:53, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Octavious deleted them en masse [12] with no discussion at all; so if the contributors here simply do not want the criticisms of Ignatieff by others in the Human Rights community included in the article then I'll just quit wasting my time. Canuckster 19:29, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
In the past, I’ve always been polite and courteous, even when I disagreed with the edits. I know that we’re not supposed to be “feeding” but I’ve always had faith in people. Or at least I’ve had faith that any troublesome editor will come around and see the efficient and proper functioning of Wikipedia. I don’t always “AGF” but I always have faith in Wikipedia that any sufficiently informed editor will eventually practice good faith. Anyone can edit this encyclopedia and not everyone will understand what “NOR” or “NPOV” is right away. It can take time. But I don’t see any reciprocation and I’m more than a little disheartened. I’ve been courteous to the point that I’m now quite embarrassed that, in the interest of fairness, I let stand comments that were really unfair to Sarah. Enough is enough. I think that I’m the last editor naïve enough to hope that you might be respectful and now I’ve run out of patience. I hope that even if you won’t be fair to the rest of the editors here and to the project, you will at least see that every word you type not only hurts you but hurts the ability of any other editor to advance the same positions in the future. --
JGGardiner
21:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I'm new to this debate and I would like to understand it. In the former paragraph "Canuckster" comments that "Octavious" removed a significant quantity of material without discussion. The response in the latter paragraph above seems, to me, to not address the complaint but instead is a personal attack on "Canuckster" --- "I’m the last editor naïve enough to hope that you might be respectful", and so on. I followed the link to see what was removed, and on reading it the material seems uncontentious to me. It is almost entirely quotes with citations, and it seems to be relevant material for a biography of Ignatieff. "Octavious" provides only the explanation that he or she is removing "Canuckster"'s edits. In both "Octavious"'s removal of the material and "JGGardiner"'s response above nobody seems to be discussing the material itself and why it should or should not be included in Ignatieff's biography; the subject of the debate seems to be "Canuckster" personally. It all comes across as very odd. Can someone shed more light on this? Why was the material removed?
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
-Reviewing these edits, it seems the monitors of this area are using it as their personal vendetta, striking out opposition etc, and abusing their priveleges as administrators with frivilous warnings and attacks. Shame. -Eddie
I have been informed that I broke neutrality in mentioning that Michael Ignatieff has repeatedly and explicitly stated his opposition to all forms of torture. This is pretty shocking, considering despite repeated criticisms, the Wikipedia Ignatieff page has been the most flagrant example of failed neutrality in this whole operation (only cleaned up after his leadership run completed, interestingly). That a man who built a career over several decades is allowed to be represented in terms of a few select political incidents over a period of months is one thing. It has escaped your careful standards nevertheless. But to suggest that at the very least there is not a clear debate between ONE paragraph in "The Lesser Evil" and the entire article in Prospect Magazine, as well as the famous CSPAN interview in which he states his opposition to coercive interrogation, is pathetic. Frankly I am shocked to see someone have the gall to suggest that allowing the previous privileging of one paragraph in such a way is somehow neutral. I did not professionally cite indeed, because I knew it would not stay up nor do I consider it worth my time, as this incident has proved some wikipedia monitor will surely notice. So the error you found was say "quality standards" or whatnot. But get it right. My facts are correct, and that political operatives have been able to co-opt this page for so long is really cause for you to be ashamed.
"Joshuapaquin" should thus keep his opinions to himself. But perhaps this is what happens when you have college kids editing a supposed "dictionary." Really this proves that Wikipedia is certainly an entertaining website (as you know from monitoring of personal IPs, I read it often) but nothing more.
I am interested to know how re-writing the exact same thing as I but adding the citation (which of course you were unable to find without me pointing you toward it) is somehow more neutral? Should I have mentioned that he also has been credited with supporting torture, despite it already being written directly above what I wrote? Nor is the incredibly off base wording that the "lesser evils" in the book's title refers to use of torture. Rather, Ignatieff clearly states that war itself, that violence (including situations such as WWII) include a lesser evil element. But of course you are not political scholars obviously. Know what you are speaking about before wasting my time.
I am assuming this is the talk page and thus an appropriate forum for this. I could care less though, I won't be editing any more since it appears to be a waste of time. But please, try and take this sad volunteer job more seriously in the future. Sadly, however, despite chiding me my edit seriously advanced the cause of neutrality on this webpage.
"I think you can distinguish between torture and coercive interrogation. I think there are forms of coercive interrogation that stop short of the torture standard. As a matter of analytic clarity, I think it’s a mistake for the Human Rights community to say anything beyond name, rank and serial number, that’s coercive, equates to torture. We do ourselves, in making these arguments, no good in obliterating the distinction between courses of interrogation and torture. There are forms of repetitive, recursive interrogation techniques that do not involve physical violence, but involve psychological stress that do not involve the kinds of line that cause, it seems to me, unjustifiable psychological stress... there may be ways of putting people through severe recursive, non-physical, harassing interrogating that stops short of torture, stops short of this kind of lasting psychological abuse that we simply may need to use if we’re dealing with a high level suspect, such as the leader of the people running the beheading videos in Iraq. I can’t find myself siding with those who simply take an absolutist moral perfectionist human rights stand on this. I think it’s a problem of finding a small category of coercive interrogation techniques that will get us intelligence results without dishonouring the United States, and shaming the operators.The reality is that torture does work, that’s the problem. It works if you’re objective is timely information. The right way to deal with this is not to permit physical methods, but to allow a mitigation excuse. If it’s time sensitive. If you have to get it now in order to protect troops or protect civilians, applying physical methods may work. That’s the problem with it. The human rights argument that it doesn’t work, it’s unnecessary, it seems to me an evasion of the real problem which is sometimes it does, if you need timely, urgent, actionable intelligence to protect other people. And there you are in what seems to me a classic lesser evil case. You can in good faith, seek to protect another human being, or a group of human beings, and to do so you have to abuse the human rights of another person. "
Could someone with access to this article fix the link to Ignatieff's talk "The Lesser Evil" (in External Links)? The correct address is http://www.cceia.org/resources/transcripts/4370.html. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.25.150.134 ( talk • contribs)
I think unprotecting this article and bringing in outside editors via peer review, etc. should solve any edit disputes. Sockpuppetry and vandalism can be dealt with through typical dispute resolution channels. Antonrojo 14:38, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I've archived all the comments that were here. If anyone wants to revive a specific discussion, all the comments are in archive 8. I think the article protection needs to stay in place at the moment due to the ongoing sockpuppet activity, but that does not need to prevent us from making changes to the article. If anyone has any edits in mind, please make suggestions on this talk page. Sarah Ewart ( Talk) 18:50, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Article has been sanitized to exclude mention of important blunders and outrageous self contradictions made by Ignatieff. 70.48.204.223 04:43, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
This source is the reputable [2] Toronto Star wherein Ignatieff says in reference to the killing of many Lebanese children "This is the kind of dirty war you're in when you have to do this and I'm not losing sleep about that." This is just 1 of many news making blunders by Ignatieff which have been sanitized from the article. The article is pov and the tag should not be removed. 64.229.28.107 14:08, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
In the U.K. people could not figure out what he was going on about. They were so happy he left the country. Many British harbour good fellings towards Canada and feel it is such a pity he ended up there. Why didn't the canadian government revoke his passport?
( uncivil comment removed) Antonrojo 04:04, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
If so, leave me a message ASAP on my talk page. I'm looking to get someone into the convention with a camera. You'll have the opportunity to photograph the candidates, hopefully one-on-one. (I think I can pull a few strings with some of the key players.) -- Zanimum 20:43, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Can someone who speaks Russian confirm this is legitimate, and not a hidden obscenity? CJCurrie 05:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
While I don't know for sure about the Quebec Liberal motion regarding Quebec as a nation, I do know that the motion by the Harper Government is regarding the Quebecois people, and not the province itself. DB 03:20, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Ignatieff resigned from the editoral and advisory board of the journal Index on Censorship in 2005 to protest an article by Conor Gearty, professor of human rights law at the London School of Economics, that excoriated Ignatieff and other liberal intellectuals who had, in Gearty's opinion, given Donald Rumsfeld "the intellectual tools with which to justify his government's expansionism."—Preceding unsigned comment added by Dave06 ( talk • contribs)
The Index on Censorship, refused to apologize to Ignatieff (or retract).
Also see the southern mutation: The Tom Friedman disease
Conor Gearty's Wikipedia article has disapeared.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Dave06 ( talk • contribs)
The article on the French language Wikipedia simply states that "he is against Kyoto", like that. I suspect great nuances on his part and numerous esoteric debates by commentators, if it has any ring of truth. Can someone shed some light on this? -- Liberlogos 14:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
What's Ignatieff going to do now? Anybody know? Shouldn't there be more interest here about Ignatieff's loss? Or at least a link to the convention item? Liberal Party of Canada leadership convention, 2006? What's going on? Canuckster 05:29, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
That's surprising news, considering Ignatieff has said that he will not run as an MP in the next election if he does not win the Party leadership.
Oh, I realise that. I was alluding to earlier comments by Michael. But thanks.
What's going on is, Michael Ignatieff's supporters, who hijacked and spun this article for the better part of a year, have stopped, now that their candidate has lost the Liberal leadership race. There is nothing more for them to do.
I've watched this article from the beginning, and it's the sickest case of political manipulation, masked as a legitimate article, I've seen on the internet thus far. And I don't exaggerate that statement.
Good riddance to them.
( uncivil comment removed) Canuckster 19:44, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
These [6] [7] removals of sourced information without discussion are out of line. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.71.122.107 ( talk • contribs)
Is this edit ok ? "Media reports that Ignatieff's 30-year absence from Canada and his initial support for the US-led invasion of Iraq played against him. [8]If not, please explain what the problem is. 70.48.205.75 14:52, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
You can not take a single media account and describe at as representative of the media in general. However, I think that it would be a fair comment that his position on Iraq may have played against him. But it would have to be described properly as speculation from some media sources. Also please remember civility. CJCurrie and Strothra's edits were not out of line. Editors will disagree, we just have to resolve it properly. It is also generally better to refer to edits rather than editors. -- JGGardiner 17:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Strotha has characterized the BBC's correspondent as "an anonymosus source" (source clearly states this view is that of their correspondent [9]). I corrected that but if Strotha wishes to justify his charectorization please do. 70.48.204.227 14:38, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
It is more accurate to describe the source as an "anonymous correspondent". To say, "The BBC speculates" is extremely misleading. The BBC didn't speculate anything, they merely reported the opinion of an anonymous "correspondent". Also, the BBC is not quoting their "correspondent in the field." They're merely quoting a "correspondent". These are big differences. Please don't try to manipulate a reference to try to make it seem like it's saying things it isn't or try to word things in a way that add more weight to your POV than the sources actually indicate. Sarah Ewart 16:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC) By the way, Ottawaman, please stop posting personal commentary about other editors. As you've been told countless times already, this talk page is for discussing the article, not Strothra, not CJ, not me, not anyone else. Sarah Ewart 16:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
There is a problem with his educational information. Mr. Ignatieff did not attend school in England, but did teach there. His graduate work was done at Harvard. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.226.60.48 ( talk) 22:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC).
I am back now and will try to collaborate in a friendly way.I have mentioned on the peer review page some additions,changes I thought were needed for the article. For some reason my talk page has been protected as has my user page , just so you are aware of that in case you wish to reach me. Since Gearty is Director of Human Rights [10] at the London School of Economics and such an important figure in the Human Rights communityI spent a lot of time trying to include this important accusations of legitimizing torture information with credible citations and with npov phraseology as well as correcting the lesser evils section to focus on exactly what Ignatieff said in his Lesser Evils op-ed rather than any interpretation of what he said. I hope there will be an assumption of good faith going forward toward my edits and I will commit to doing the same toward others. Canuckster 14:53, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Octavious deleted them en masse [12] with no discussion at all; so if the contributors here simply do not want the criticisms of Ignatieff by others in the Human Rights community included in the article then I'll just quit wasting my time. Canuckster 19:29, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
In the past, I’ve always been polite and courteous, even when I disagreed with the edits. I know that we’re not supposed to be “feeding” but I’ve always had faith in people. Or at least I’ve had faith that any troublesome editor will come around and see the efficient and proper functioning of Wikipedia. I don’t always “AGF” but I always have faith in Wikipedia that any sufficiently informed editor will eventually practice good faith. Anyone can edit this encyclopedia and not everyone will understand what “NOR” or “NPOV” is right away. It can take time. But I don’t see any reciprocation and I’m more than a little disheartened. I’ve been courteous to the point that I’m now quite embarrassed that, in the interest of fairness, I let stand comments that were really unfair to Sarah. Enough is enough. I think that I’m the last editor naïve enough to hope that you might be respectful and now I’ve run out of patience. I hope that even if you won’t be fair to the rest of the editors here and to the project, you will at least see that every word you type not only hurts you but hurts the ability of any other editor to advance the same positions in the future. --
JGGardiner
21:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I'm new to this debate and I would like to understand it. In the former paragraph "Canuckster" comments that "Octavious" removed a significant quantity of material without discussion. The response in the latter paragraph above seems, to me, to not address the complaint but instead is a personal attack on "Canuckster" --- "I’m the last editor naïve enough to hope that you might be respectful", and so on. I followed the link to see what was removed, and on reading it the material seems uncontentious to me. It is almost entirely quotes with citations, and it seems to be relevant material for a biography of Ignatieff. "Octavious" provides only the explanation that he or she is removing "Canuckster"'s edits. In both "Octavious"'s removal of the material and "JGGardiner"'s response above nobody seems to be discussing the material itself and why it should or should not be included in Ignatieff's biography; the subject of the debate seems to be "Canuckster" personally. It all comes across as very odd. Can someone shed more light on this? Why was the material removed?