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This page contains the discussion of the Michael Ignatieff page up to May 27, 2006.
A general question- why is Ignatieff listed as a philosopher? His degree is in history, not philosophy, he doesn't teach in a philosophy department, he's not considered a philosopher by professional philosophers, and while some of his work might be "philosophical" it can't properly be called philosophy. It might be better to place him in a different category.
-RESPONSE: Ignatieff is listed in every major book store in the philosophy section. Political philosophy is philosophy. He is also an expert in 18th century philosophy, and has taught on this subject. Hume, Locke, etc. = philosophy. The Rights Revolution is a modern philosophy. If he is not a philosopher than neither is Noam Chomsky, yet I see no questioning of that.
-Similarly, Ignatieff's "A Just Measure of Pain" is widely cited as a companion to Michel Foucault's "Discipline and Punish." They are equally philosophical works and Foucault is undisputedly considered a philosopher. We must not allow political concerns of a time-bound nature to re-shape our perception of reality. Human rights as politics and idolatry is also a philosophical work. This is reaching ridiculous proportions (this debate).
Another general question about the bias in recent edits of this (and indeed in the current one). Many of these critics are Gerard Kennedy supporters. I reccomend someone compare these two entries, to see just how much Ignatieff supporters are "putting in the fix" as it is suggested. More importantly, look at how Kennedy's page only speaks of his accomplishments. He doesn't have failings you say? Well, would a conservative not say he believes in a socialist vision of the country, or even colleauge Dwight Duncan say he would've taken Ontario into the poorhouse and is fiscally irresponsible? Can't conservatives now point to his success with the teacher's unions and say well he is caving to special interests? I think the answer is no to all these questions. These criticisms range from absurd to unecessary in such a forum. They are not facts, they are opinions. Yet with Ignatieff's entry they dominate. Kennedy's page lists every single supporter, Ignatieff's lists none (this would be seen as too promoting!) and even listing a positive accomplishment is criticized. This is all the evidence in the world. The critiques of Kennedy I gave above I'm sure strike you all as things that would be suprising to find on a wikipedia entry. Yet why a double standard for Ignatieff? Looking at it in this light you see how ridiculously biased these attacks have become. If it is only fairness and accuracy these people seek why have they not destroyed that entry as well? I hope they don't, though I could see them now doing so to prove a point but that would prove nothing as it is only with my pointing it out. And it certainly has not been a site unvisited before based on its enumeration of supporters (when they are not well known they are not relevant to an encyclopedia). I also encourage Ignatieff supporters not to deface this site though they have not yet despite their supposed deceitfullness. This speaks volumes!
I was speaking to a few people and feel that the statements in regards to Ignatieff's support for the Iraq invasion are a bit simplistic. Necessary caveats are omitted and should be added to clarify Ignatieff's position. He supports the invasion on Iraq from a theoretical standpoint, but let's make no qualms about it - he did not support the US invasion of Iraq... From his "Lesser Evils" article in the NY Times:
"We need national and international rules to control such wars. This may require both Congressional legislation and United Nations resolutions. Pre-emptive war can be justified only when the danger that must be pre-empted is imminent, when peaceful means of averting the danger have been tried and have failed and when democratic institutions ratify the decision to do so.
If these are the minimum tests pre-emptive war has to meet, the Iraq war failed to meet all three." slaman 15:00, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Here it is in Ignatieff's own words. In his article "The Year of Living Dangerously, March 14, 2004": "A year ago, I was a reluctant yet convinced supporter of the war in Iraq." His role is blatantly obvious. He provides conservative arguments to the liberal audience and liberal alibis to the conservatives.
Can someone flag this article, asking that it be cleaned up and conform to a higher level of quality? As written, it could be a poster child for Wikipedia's shortcomings. It's lttle more than a poorly written cut-and-paste job from a hodge podge of newspaper sources. The persepctive is also skewed -- too much on the lead up to Ignatieff's entry into politics ad not enough on his human rights work.
Can we have a bit more on his academic career? It goes beyond Iraq and torture. Thes entinel 05:00, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
That's all very well but how do you pronounce his name? ZephyrAnycon 18:58, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Here is a link to the controversial excerpt from Ignatieff's book Blood and Belonging about Ukraine: [1].
t seems worthy of inclusion in some fashion, but as the entire argument centers around whether it was taken out of context, it seems POV to just stick it in verbatim. Any ideas? -- Saforrest 03:09, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I've included both the quotation form the book and Ignatieff's comments that it has been taken out of context. Homey 04:07, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Instead of accusing Susan Kadis of wrongdoing (based on citation found on what is essentially a blog, and without describing what that so-called wrongdoing might even be) in an article about Micheal Ignatieff, please refer to this issue which has already been resolved on discussion page of the Susan Kadis' article.
this thing is going to serve only the people who have no access to him, because he will have time to explain himself or give a more profound understanding of the ukrainian need to be independant from russia.
So for a short term, its helping the conservative, the ndp and the bloquist...but at last they might lose by making him a victim, while he makes his place in the decision making.
If the oil for food scandal did not get the attention from canadian, while the leadership of the liberal was completely using the desmarais and maurice strong influence to keep in power (while desmarais and strong were using the oil for food program enough to at better get blames from canadian people, but because their friends were carlyle bush's ...it became a mystery never unfolded!)
So ignatieff will make its place...the detail remain what the canadian will ask him to do with canada: reforming constitution like he likes to say in its books or keep the loopholes that permit canadian politics to be a strict superficial fight?
Depend on the pressure we put to the carlyle club!
Strange that this has so little about MI in the UK - where he lived for most of the last 30 years ... Charles Matthews 13:43, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
actually we have..........a lot.......and is it really relevant what we do?
"According to a press release by members of the riding association, a nomination meeting was set for November 30, 2005 by the Liberal Party leadership, mere hours after the resignation of Liberal MP Jean Augustine was announced on Friday November 25, with the deadline to file as a candidate in the nomination meeting set for 5 pm the next day. Despite such short notice, two candidates other than Ignatieff managed to obtain the necessary number of signatures and fill out the nomination papers. "The two candidates delivered their nomination documents to Liberal Party headquarters in Toronto, only to find that the office was locked before the 5:00 p.m. filing deadline. Liberal party staffers could be seen through the second storey windows, but they refused to answer repeated knocking on the doors and phone calls to the office,"[4] according to the press release."
This "press release" is just a blog entry by a professional spin-man, Warren Kinsella. Unless a reputable citation can be found, I recommend it be deleted.
While Ignatieff's grandfather or even his father may have been White Russians (as in pro-czarist) I don't see how one could classify him as one, as he obviously wasn't alive until the Cold War.
If we are to label children by the political sentiments of their ancestors, well, there's a good I'm probably a Jacobite, though I just don't know it yet. :) -- Saforrest 06:43, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Worse than that. They were only "white" for a little while. Before that they were outright Czarist totalitarians. Or whatever term you prefer. -- JGGardiner 06:56, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Cut from article, written by anon:
A worthwhile thing to look in to. - Joshuapaquin 19:28, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
In reference to the "info request" above, it does seem that what MI says today has little relevance to what he says tomorrow. The Ignatieff supporters I've met have been surprisingly cultlike in their defense of Ignatieff and the "lie" word is quick to come from the Ignatieff camp.A Toronto Star columnist wrote an article referring to Ignatieff's on the record support for, what the columnist called "torture light". It wasn't long before that large newspaper was issuing an apology, not withstanding Ignatieff's New York Times Op-ed contents; "Here we are deep into lesser-evil territory. Permissible duress might include forms of sleep deprivation that do not result in lasting harm to mental or physical health, together with disinformation and disorientation (like keeping prisoners in hoods) that would produce stress." [2]. A "key Ignatieff backer"; David Smith is Chairman of one of the most powerful "cross border" law firms in Canada(550 lawyers), so Canadian media may tred lightly from now on. I suppose that Ignatieff might say that his methods of "duress" do not fit the definition of torture. I would be more interested in what Ignatieff's wife's legal status in Canada is (visiter? immigrant?) as that might shed some light upon their long term committment to the country, but Toronto reporters are not known for their inquisitiveness, imo, and Ignatieff's backers are not likely to leave that criticism uncovered; however, the living in the riding lie (if it is one) may indicate a certain Bush type arrogance creeping in. It certainly looks to me as if Ignatieff is unstoppable and that his team knows how to push the right buttons"This is how I envisioned it being used when I helped write it." :) 67.71.122.115 12:36, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I have Deleted this section as no one can seem to verify why this is relevant.-- Davidmintz 00:39, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
The "fix is in" is not just some people's imagination. I am in Toronto and I know that Ignatieff supporters are making these edits here already. The negative stuff about Ignatieff is also being well kept out of major Canadian media. This sentence; "To defeat evil, we may have to traffic in evils: indefinite detention of suspects, coercive interrogations, targeted assassinations, even pre-emptive war."in his Times Op-ed is enough to sink him in Canada but it is not being reported at all. Even when the demonstrators brought it up at the Univ. in Ottawa meeting the media reported that Ignatieff "dispelled the notion" that he would support torture in any form. Also, a very serious lawyer I know in Toronto told me Ignatieff has so much "heavyweight American juice" supporting him, even the other Canadian party leaders are afraid of him. Neutralizer 12:31, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
For below-this is not a valid complaint but absolute hogwash. These sentences (that's right TWO sentences of his whole career some dozen books) have receieved extensive coverage in the media. No candidate has been so pilliored. And there is NO evidence of any kind his "weight" is forcing media to back down. Does the business-minded Stephen Harper (whom the star criticizes) not have weight? No the difference between the Star and these complaintants is they are held to a real standard of accuracy. Intelligent people hearing a complaint and coming to the conclusion you have misinterpreted it to the point where you are wrong and so do not report on that is not bias that is just not seeing things as you insist they should.
Below show his 2 primary backers' cross border business ambitions which tell us they both are likely to be big winners financially regardless of whether American wannabe Ignatieff or Bush's pal Harper leads Canada; By them putting Ignatieff in as Liberal leader, the upcoming election becomes a win-win for these 2 powerhouse backroom bagmen.
Re; David Smith,
"FMC Leadership: An Interview With Senator David P. Smith. ‘As part of a 'Special Focus on Canada', Metropolitan Corporate Counsel featured an interview with FMC Counsel and Chairman Emeritus, Senator David P. Smith to discuss his distinguished career in public service, leadership in law and the ever-strengthening future of the largest bilateral trade relationship in the world - the U.S. and Canada.’”
"What are the ultimate goals that you have for the firm?"
His answer is;
"I would like to see our firm increase the presence we have today in cross border transactions and trade deals." ________
http://www.fasken.com/WEB/FMDEMPPROF.NSF/0/043960C1C9DB7DFE85256FC50059574C?OpenDocument]
"At The REALM, he completed one of the largest first-round private equity financings (US$132 Million) during the year 2000 in the United States. Since returning to Canada and legal practice in 2001, Alfred has completed a number of significant cross-border acquisitions, divestitures and financings.” 64.229.65.236 00:36, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Given that the sentence in question is in Ignatieff's NYTimes op-ed it is not original research to cite that quotation. Homey 23:09, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't know much about the edit wars going on here, but the list of external articles is getting out of hand; most of the links are showing only the URL with no reference to source or author. The citation system should also be cleaned up: Is there a reason why both footnotes and embedded links are being used? -- Pastricide! Non-absorbing 23:35, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I realize that opinions diverge about this candidate, but the 'controversies' section rapidly degenerated into a hatchet job of dubiously-selected quotations. Just adding the paragraph alone that each came from changed the tone immensely.
A serious issue with this page will be that critics of Ignatieff will want the "controversies" section to dominate the page - as it already does in length - and it's difficult to prevent that without heavy-handed editing on the part of pro-Ignatieff contributers. As I am a relative newb to wikipedia I've done very little here; I removed the gratiutous "granta" bit which was obviously just meant to sauce-up the rather silly "first person plural" argument which was already stated plainly enough in the preceeding passage. Other than that I added in Roth's statement in the Star to balance out Gearty's claims (Which I find highly academically dubious; the Bush administration's mentality on torture has been developed wholly independantly of any academic discourses, and then again within the academic discourses, Ignatieff is highly anti-torture both in absolute and relative terms. The arguments might be made about Alan Dershowitz, but even then I think that the administration's paper trail (now a matter of considerable investigation) has little reference to legitimate academic opinion. Please pardon my inadvertant newbishness vis a vis the wikipedia interface. Jason Townsend 00:27 GMT April 14
[11]Ronald Steel, the author of Temptations of a Superpower and other books about American political thought and foreign relations, teaches international relations at the University of Southern California. [12] [13] [14]Mariano Aguirre is co-director of the Fundacion para las Relaciones Internacionales y el Dialogo Exterior (Fride), in Madrid. He is the former director of the Peace Research Center (CIP), Madrid and has been a program officer at the Ford Foundation in New York. He is a fellow of the Transnational Institute, Amsterdam. 70.48.207.187 04:03, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Ignatieff employs two tools in his complex job. First, his credentials: he is the director of a prestigious academic human-rights centre, a skilful writer known for advocating a humanitarian intervention in the Balkan wars, the biographer of the heterodox thinker Isaiah Berlin, and a contributor to the New York Times and New York Review of Books. (from the link in the article)
You see, Geary and Aggy disagree with Iggy but suggests that the problem is that Ignatieff is actually very important and that is why he is a problem as he lends his intellectual cache to Rumsfeld and others. Perhaps Ignatieff is outside of the mainstream of his colleagues but that doesn't make him unimportant or less of a figure in his discipline. Indeed, the authors cited above suggest that Ignatieff leads an important and powerful, albeit morally wrong, faction in the discipline.-- JGGardiner 04:42, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
This is an attempt to offer a bit more balance. Someone has decided to add several topic headings quoting Ignatieff on a range of controversial issues, often not providing much context. For a more rounded view, I have added some of Ignatieff's writing on Canada and Canadian rights culture.
I also re-added some passages that had been removed by obviously partisan editers. You may not like Ignatieff's views, but you cannot get around the fact that he is most well known for his writing on human rights; deleting this fact from Wikipedia is just dishonest.
Finally, I gave the full quotation for the "lesser evil" approach. Whoever originally added this section intentionally left out the preceding paragraph where Ignatieff discusses an "outright ban" on torture.
Ok, I wish the partisan editors would stop importing their judgments and "spinning" and let quotations, yes, that includes FULL quotations in FULL context, speak for themselves. You do not need to use emotionally charged adjectives; let people read the quotes and come to their own conclusions. Yes, this means you cannot "by accident" leave out parts of passages where Ignatieff clearly supports a ban on torture. People are free to disagree with his views, but not influence others through intellectual dishonesty.
Fixed up the portion about Ignatieff's "expertise" and removed the NPOV. There appears to be some objection to viewing Ignatieff as a "world reknowned expert", and while I think this is probably the case, I understand why some might object. Done.
-this is unbelievable. He is an expert, just because people take offense at two sentences does not mean he can be written off. Before these partisans had something to gain by his failure he was world-renowned, used in university courses worldwide, served on international commissions (such as in Kosovo), and more. If I think Chomsky is worthless can I erase his expertise in linguistics? No.
I also added some more information about the texts mentioned in the "Recognition" paragraphs. There was no information indicating what the books were about, nor what the awards were for.
Someone added this article to the category "Jewish Canadians". Is there any citation for this? A quick Google search turned up speculation at... er... [http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=227466 Stormfront], which doesn't quite cut it in my book. - Joshuapaquin 23:02, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I know that we are to assume good faith from other editors, but when an anonymous IP adds an NPOV to each and every section to the Wikipedia article, it is clearly an attempt at defacement. I've removed the NPOVs, and also moved around some of the headings for clarification. Also added the "foreign policy" heading under "Controversies" so it is clear what the first paragraph under that heading is referring.
Unfortunately, this entire Wiki article is filled with grade school level writing and needs a lot more editing.
I know this because I just broke up with one of those organizers. They have 2 employees assigned to spin and complicate all references to Iggy's documented support of invading Iraq, torture, reducing civil and human rights, and american expansionism. 67.71.121.208 10:32, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Truth be told, I've found most of the systematic, single-issue edits (ie: by users without any other Wiki articles) are anti-Ignatieff. But JCGardiner is right - if you see something that violates NPOV, fix it. 198.20.40.50
Certain anti-Ignatieff partisans (one noted above) want headlines mentioning "rights" and "privacy" with respect to particular passages where Ignatieff elaborates his "Lesser Evil" approach. Fine. I've removed his duplicate quotes and clarified headlines indicating that passages involve the "Lesser Evil" approach in the context of rights, the rule of law, and privacy concerns.
Just removed the following:
There are a few things here that should be taken issue with: First, that the nomination was 'covert', second, that the 'controversy continues to this day', and third, the idea that Augustine didn't genuinely support Ignatieff (suggested in the modification from previous wording). Anyone well-informed about the Etobicoke-Lakeshore situation has seen plenty of evidence contrary to each of these statements, so until there's a credible source for any of them, I've reverted it. - Joshuapaquin 04:50, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Striking13 is sending unsigned notes to my talk page and seems to want to pov this article in favour of the candidate for Prime Minister,Ignatieff. 64.229.31.222 04:45, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
The talk page is for work on the article. If there is an occurence of pov (including partisan) content on the page either edit it or bring it here. It is unhelpful to simply accuse another editor of bias. They aren't going to get banned for that. You're just going to have to learn to live with each other. Please, comment on content, not on the contributor. -- JGGardiner 05:26, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I reverted the recent edits by 69.158.188.26 as they were blatantly pro-Iggy Pov and completely one sided concerning the nomination process; that editor deleted crucial and documented reports and sanitized the controversy regarding the nomination. 64.229.28.213 12:46, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Reading through the article and the talk page, I still can't figure out whether or not there's anything substantial to the allegations of Ukrainian prejudice. In particular, the claim that the quotation is taken out of context is not supported by any independent references in the article (other than a press release by Ignatieff's campaign, which is clearly not independent). As far as I can tell, the Ukrainian Canadian Congress has not retracted their allegations. Does anyone have a copy of the book in question and can provide the context? Does anyone have a transcript of the PBS TV version of the book? The section needs to be cleaned up with definite information. -- Chris Thompson 23:02, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your comment. That gives me a much better picture. I've spent quite a few hours reading various Ignatieff writings over the last couple of days and it does fit with his style. Though I would agree that admitting to innate emotional personal biases, even if to come down firmly against them later, is a difficult thing to have exposed in the political arena because of the level of modern political discourse. Ignatieff's comments on the Israel/Palestine issue are fairly analogous, and I imagine he'll be crucified for them by both sides. What particularly intrigues me is how he can be both critical of ethnic nationalism and yet a supporter of modern American pseudo-Jeffersonian imperialism with such rose-coloured glasses. In any case, he is a man of complicated opinions. If I feel I can clean up that section of the article, I'll try to. -- Chris Thompson 04:44, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Certainly, Ignatieff's views on torture and Iraq have been "controversial", but I know of no big controversy about those particular citations previous noted re: Rule of Law and privacy rights. Rather, they were simply passages from one of Ignatieff's article where he does his typical "back and forth" discussion on various positions to explain his Lesser Evil analysis. So, I've created a "Lesser Evil" section under "Ideas" which essentially incorporates the ideas from those sections.
I've also moved the "Afghanistan" extension from the "controversies" section, to the more apropriate "Political career" section. It is not NPOV to say Ignatieff's support for the extension was "controversial", one could easily posit that the failure of people to support the extension was controversial but Ignatieff was being principled. Striking13 05:35, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
What are people's feelings about the link to the "satirical" campaign posters for Ignatieff? That link gets added then deleted then added. My feeling is that the parody site is not terribly informative or appropriate as a reference. One would not expect links to a satirical site about the Republican party at the end of its article. Links to reasoned criticism of Ignatieff seem reasonable as a fair counterbalance to the links to pro-Ignatieff sites. (And indeed, the Republican party article contains a link to SaveTheGOP.com.) There is a strong anti-Ignatieff movement in Canada, as evidenced by the protests at his larger speaking engagements, and it's fair to acknowledge that, but the posters link is not informative in my view. On the other hand, the Stop Iggy link is fine, IMHO. Their reasoning is explained and they provide a healthy set of links to Ignatieff's writings. Thoughts? -- Chris Thompson 11:57, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Accidentally re-added them before reading this. My bad. They're gone again.
Um, to the anonymous editor who's been doing this, please don't delete things with the comment "see the talk page" unless there actually is relevant discussion on the talk page about that topic. Thanks. -- Chris Thompson 02:03, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
The quotation of Ignatieff's article in Granta:77 is problematic. Here is written under the section "Attitude toward Canada":
This appears to suggest that America, that is, the country "commands" his faith. But here is what he actually wrote:
This is a subtle, but important distinction. Ignatieff does not say "America" commands his faith; but rather, the "promises" that America keeps to itself does: freedom, liberty, democratic reinvention. Who disagrees with such promises? There is a big difference between saying certain ideas commands one's faith, and saying a country "commands" faith; one involves commitment to ideas, another a nationalist commitment to country.
There are other problems as well. This particular edition of Granta invited a number of writers/journalists/luminaries to write about what "they think of America" as a way to explore what the magazine felt was the quiet anti-Americanism in the response to 9/11:
In this edition, Ignatieff writes under the heading "Canada" (check the article) [16], that is, his article offers a Canadian perspective on the United States. Other writers in the Granta edition write from other country prespectives - Germany, Britain, etc. If this article is being used here under a heading like "Controversies" in order show he has a controversial view towards Canada its pretty intellectually dishonest to leave out this context. As it is, it looks like Ignatieff wrote some article back in 2002 proclaiming America commands his faith. Sheesh! And finally, could someone point out the source for saying this particular article caused some sort of controversy? Because if there isn't a source, pretending it's controversial is not NPOV, or, at least, is original research. -- 24.222.204.12 14:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Someone inserted a link in the "Opponent Sites" category to a webpage that has a retitled version of "The Burden," with the new title "Empire Lite." I'm taking it out for the following reasons: 1) There's already a link to "The Burden" (indeed, it's the first link under "Articles"). 2) I don't see how the annotated version is an opponent site. The pull quotes are decent and for the most part they don't take things out of context or quote selectively. Would an opponent site end with the final pull quote: "The case for empire is that it has become, in a place like Iraq, the last hope for democracy and stability alike"? That seems like an accurate description of what Ignatieff is trying to say in the article. If I were writing an opponent site, I would have chosen to quote the sentence from that section implicitly (not explicitly) linking the impending invasion of Iraq to Sept. 11. For the most part, the site would only seem like an opponent site if the reader has some knee-jerk reaction to the term "empire"... but there is enough context in the pull quotes for people to realize that Ignatieff's use of the term is not purely jingoistic (or even fundamentally neoconservative for that matter). If anything, I'd suspect that site was set up by Ignatieff's campaign team to deflect allegations of neoconservatism. (I did a whois lookup and the actual site creator is shielded by a domains by proxy privacy service, so my ownership comments are just speculation.) 3) The article's renamed title, "Empire Lite," is confusing, since Ignatieff has a book published in 2003 by Penguin also called "Empire Lite." -- Chris Thompson 07:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I noticed in many press releases Ignatieff's 2 children (Theo and Sophie) are mentioned in passing. They are no press reports of them being with him in Canada. They were young teenagers when Ignatieff divorced their mother in London England and then he relocated to the USA. Is it not just a little odd that they have not been involved at all in his campaign? They would be in their late teens or early 20s I think. I also think it's odd for a father to move 6,000 miles away from his teenage kids, even when divorced.
This normally would be nobody's business; but this guy might well be the leader of a G-8 country; shouldn't we know more about his personal life? Also, we know he lied about moving to the riding if elected as MP; so perhaps everything he says should be checked out. His new wife, what is her status in Canada? Is she an immigrant? Could Canada have a PM with a wife who is not a legal resoident? I heard that Ignatieff still uses his Masssachusetts drivers license. Is any of this important? I think so, but perhaps not in the eyes of today's encyclopedia writers. Please lmk what others think about the lack of information about Ignatieff's first family and his current wife. 65.95.149.123 13:58, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
It's as if anything to do with Iggy's first family is being censored (kept out of) Canada's mainstream media and this encyclopedia as well? By contrast, look at the Wikipedia detail on John Kerry's first wife and children.
Here is my concern. I am not a Liberal and, in fact, it would help my party if Ignatieff becomes Liberal leader. However, I have noticed exceptionally misleading information being put out on Iggy to the point where I am a bit worried about my Liberal friends even having access to accurate information about this candidate. The thing with his children seems to me to be quite important and the press reports in Canada can be easily read to give the false impression that they are the children of his present wife; e.g. [17]"Family: Father George Ignatieff, mother Alison Grant; married to Zsuzsanna Zsohar; has two children, Theo and Sophie." I would hope that the background info in an encyclopedia would have some basic info concerning a politician's family which obviously includes their children. Now when you state the No original research rule, does that mean that editors here are only to contribute what information they are personally aware of? Also, Joshuapaquin seems to feel that any expansion of even non-original research about the children's whereabouts or citizenship is too personal to even be put in the encyclopedia; is that the general opinion? Also, does the same taboo apply to Ignatieff's current wife's citizenship, for example? I have removed the "deadbeat dad" reference which was merely to make a point and was clearly not an accusation. It seems to have been quickly picked up to be used as a Strawman argument so I certainly hope that will no longer be attempted. 64.229.185.244 17:58, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This page contains the discussion of the Michael Ignatieff page up to May 27, 2006.
A general question- why is Ignatieff listed as a philosopher? His degree is in history, not philosophy, he doesn't teach in a philosophy department, he's not considered a philosopher by professional philosophers, and while some of his work might be "philosophical" it can't properly be called philosophy. It might be better to place him in a different category.
-RESPONSE: Ignatieff is listed in every major book store in the philosophy section. Political philosophy is philosophy. He is also an expert in 18th century philosophy, and has taught on this subject. Hume, Locke, etc. = philosophy. The Rights Revolution is a modern philosophy. If he is not a philosopher than neither is Noam Chomsky, yet I see no questioning of that.
-Similarly, Ignatieff's "A Just Measure of Pain" is widely cited as a companion to Michel Foucault's "Discipline and Punish." They are equally philosophical works and Foucault is undisputedly considered a philosopher. We must not allow political concerns of a time-bound nature to re-shape our perception of reality. Human rights as politics and idolatry is also a philosophical work. This is reaching ridiculous proportions (this debate).
Another general question about the bias in recent edits of this (and indeed in the current one). Many of these critics are Gerard Kennedy supporters. I reccomend someone compare these two entries, to see just how much Ignatieff supporters are "putting in the fix" as it is suggested. More importantly, look at how Kennedy's page only speaks of his accomplishments. He doesn't have failings you say? Well, would a conservative not say he believes in a socialist vision of the country, or even colleauge Dwight Duncan say he would've taken Ontario into the poorhouse and is fiscally irresponsible? Can't conservatives now point to his success with the teacher's unions and say well he is caving to special interests? I think the answer is no to all these questions. These criticisms range from absurd to unecessary in such a forum. They are not facts, they are opinions. Yet with Ignatieff's entry they dominate. Kennedy's page lists every single supporter, Ignatieff's lists none (this would be seen as too promoting!) and even listing a positive accomplishment is criticized. This is all the evidence in the world. The critiques of Kennedy I gave above I'm sure strike you all as things that would be suprising to find on a wikipedia entry. Yet why a double standard for Ignatieff? Looking at it in this light you see how ridiculously biased these attacks have become. If it is only fairness and accuracy these people seek why have they not destroyed that entry as well? I hope they don't, though I could see them now doing so to prove a point but that would prove nothing as it is only with my pointing it out. And it certainly has not been a site unvisited before based on its enumeration of supporters (when they are not well known they are not relevant to an encyclopedia). I also encourage Ignatieff supporters not to deface this site though they have not yet despite their supposed deceitfullness. This speaks volumes!
I was speaking to a few people and feel that the statements in regards to Ignatieff's support for the Iraq invasion are a bit simplistic. Necessary caveats are omitted and should be added to clarify Ignatieff's position. He supports the invasion on Iraq from a theoretical standpoint, but let's make no qualms about it - he did not support the US invasion of Iraq... From his "Lesser Evils" article in the NY Times:
"We need national and international rules to control such wars. This may require both Congressional legislation and United Nations resolutions. Pre-emptive war can be justified only when the danger that must be pre-empted is imminent, when peaceful means of averting the danger have been tried and have failed and when democratic institutions ratify the decision to do so.
If these are the minimum tests pre-emptive war has to meet, the Iraq war failed to meet all three." slaman 15:00, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Here it is in Ignatieff's own words. In his article "The Year of Living Dangerously, March 14, 2004": "A year ago, I was a reluctant yet convinced supporter of the war in Iraq." His role is blatantly obvious. He provides conservative arguments to the liberal audience and liberal alibis to the conservatives.
Can someone flag this article, asking that it be cleaned up and conform to a higher level of quality? As written, it could be a poster child for Wikipedia's shortcomings. It's lttle more than a poorly written cut-and-paste job from a hodge podge of newspaper sources. The persepctive is also skewed -- too much on the lead up to Ignatieff's entry into politics ad not enough on his human rights work.
Can we have a bit more on his academic career? It goes beyond Iraq and torture. Thes entinel 05:00, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
That's all very well but how do you pronounce his name? ZephyrAnycon 18:58, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Here is a link to the controversial excerpt from Ignatieff's book Blood and Belonging about Ukraine: [1].
t seems worthy of inclusion in some fashion, but as the entire argument centers around whether it was taken out of context, it seems POV to just stick it in verbatim. Any ideas? -- Saforrest 03:09, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I've included both the quotation form the book and Ignatieff's comments that it has been taken out of context. Homey 04:07, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Instead of accusing Susan Kadis of wrongdoing (based on citation found on what is essentially a blog, and without describing what that so-called wrongdoing might even be) in an article about Micheal Ignatieff, please refer to this issue which has already been resolved on discussion page of the Susan Kadis' article.
this thing is going to serve only the people who have no access to him, because he will have time to explain himself or give a more profound understanding of the ukrainian need to be independant from russia.
So for a short term, its helping the conservative, the ndp and the bloquist...but at last they might lose by making him a victim, while he makes his place in the decision making.
If the oil for food scandal did not get the attention from canadian, while the leadership of the liberal was completely using the desmarais and maurice strong influence to keep in power (while desmarais and strong were using the oil for food program enough to at better get blames from canadian people, but because their friends were carlyle bush's ...it became a mystery never unfolded!)
So ignatieff will make its place...the detail remain what the canadian will ask him to do with canada: reforming constitution like he likes to say in its books or keep the loopholes that permit canadian politics to be a strict superficial fight?
Depend on the pressure we put to the carlyle club!
Strange that this has so little about MI in the UK - where he lived for most of the last 30 years ... Charles Matthews 13:43, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
actually we have..........a lot.......and is it really relevant what we do?
"According to a press release by members of the riding association, a nomination meeting was set for November 30, 2005 by the Liberal Party leadership, mere hours after the resignation of Liberal MP Jean Augustine was announced on Friday November 25, with the deadline to file as a candidate in the nomination meeting set for 5 pm the next day. Despite such short notice, two candidates other than Ignatieff managed to obtain the necessary number of signatures and fill out the nomination papers. "The two candidates delivered their nomination documents to Liberal Party headquarters in Toronto, only to find that the office was locked before the 5:00 p.m. filing deadline. Liberal party staffers could be seen through the second storey windows, but they refused to answer repeated knocking on the doors and phone calls to the office,"[4] according to the press release."
This "press release" is just a blog entry by a professional spin-man, Warren Kinsella. Unless a reputable citation can be found, I recommend it be deleted.
While Ignatieff's grandfather or even his father may have been White Russians (as in pro-czarist) I don't see how one could classify him as one, as he obviously wasn't alive until the Cold War.
If we are to label children by the political sentiments of their ancestors, well, there's a good I'm probably a Jacobite, though I just don't know it yet. :) -- Saforrest 06:43, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Worse than that. They were only "white" for a little while. Before that they were outright Czarist totalitarians. Or whatever term you prefer. -- JGGardiner 06:56, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Cut from article, written by anon:
A worthwhile thing to look in to. - Joshuapaquin 19:28, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
In reference to the "info request" above, it does seem that what MI says today has little relevance to what he says tomorrow. The Ignatieff supporters I've met have been surprisingly cultlike in their defense of Ignatieff and the "lie" word is quick to come from the Ignatieff camp.A Toronto Star columnist wrote an article referring to Ignatieff's on the record support for, what the columnist called "torture light". It wasn't long before that large newspaper was issuing an apology, not withstanding Ignatieff's New York Times Op-ed contents; "Here we are deep into lesser-evil territory. Permissible duress might include forms of sleep deprivation that do not result in lasting harm to mental or physical health, together with disinformation and disorientation (like keeping prisoners in hoods) that would produce stress." [2]. A "key Ignatieff backer"; David Smith is Chairman of one of the most powerful "cross border" law firms in Canada(550 lawyers), so Canadian media may tred lightly from now on. I suppose that Ignatieff might say that his methods of "duress" do not fit the definition of torture. I would be more interested in what Ignatieff's wife's legal status in Canada is (visiter? immigrant?) as that might shed some light upon their long term committment to the country, but Toronto reporters are not known for their inquisitiveness, imo, and Ignatieff's backers are not likely to leave that criticism uncovered; however, the living in the riding lie (if it is one) may indicate a certain Bush type arrogance creeping in. It certainly looks to me as if Ignatieff is unstoppable and that his team knows how to push the right buttons"This is how I envisioned it being used when I helped write it." :) 67.71.122.115 12:36, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I have Deleted this section as no one can seem to verify why this is relevant.-- Davidmintz 00:39, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
The "fix is in" is not just some people's imagination. I am in Toronto and I know that Ignatieff supporters are making these edits here already. The negative stuff about Ignatieff is also being well kept out of major Canadian media. This sentence; "To defeat evil, we may have to traffic in evils: indefinite detention of suspects, coercive interrogations, targeted assassinations, even pre-emptive war."in his Times Op-ed is enough to sink him in Canada but it is not being reported at all. Even when the demonstrators brought it up at the Univ. in Ottawa meeting the media reported that Ignatieff "dispelled the notion" that he would support torture in any form. Also, a very serious lawyer I know in Toronto told me Ignatieff has so much "heavyweight American juice" supporting him, even the other Canadian party leaders are afraid of him. Neutralizer 12:31, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
For below-this is not a valid complaint but absolute hogwash. These sentences (that's right TWO sentences of his whole career some dozen books) have receieved extensive coverage in the media. No candidate has been so pilliored. And there is NO evidence of any kind his "weight" is forcing media to back down. Does the business-minded Stephen Harper (whom the star criticizes) not have weight? No the difference between the Star and these complaintants is they are held to a real standard of accuracy. Intelligent people hearing a complaint and coming to the conclusion you have misinterpreted it to the point where you are wrong and so do not report on that is not bias that is just not seeing things as you insist they should.
Below show his 2 primary backers' cross border business ambitions which tell us they both are likely to be big winners financially regardless of whether American wannabe Ignatieff or Bush's pal Harper leads Canada; By them putting Ignatieff in as Liberal leader, the upcoming election becomes a win-win for these 2 powerhouse backroom bagmen.
Re; David Smith,
"FMC Leadership: An Interview With Senator David P. Smith. ‘As part of a 'Special Focus on Canada', Metropolitan Corporate Counsel featured an interview with FMC Counsel and Chairman Emeritus, Senator David P. Smith to discuss his distinguished career in public service, leadership in law and the ever-strengthening future of the largest bilateral trade relationship in the world - the U.S. and Canada.’”
"What are the ultimate goals that you have for the firm?"
His answer is;
"I would like to see our firm increase the presence we have today in cross border transactions and trade deals." ________
http://www.fasken.com/WEB/FMDEMPPROF.NSF/0/043960C1C9DB7DFE85256FC50059574C?OpenDocument]
"At The REALM, he completed one of the largest first-round private equity financings (US$132 Million) during the year 2000 in the United States. Since returning to Canada and legal practice in 2001, Alfred has completed a number of significant cross-border acquisitions, divestitures and financings.” 64.229.65.236 00:36, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Given that the sentence in question is in Ignatieff's NYTimes op-ed it is not original research to cite that quotation. Homey 23:09, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't know much about the edit wars going on here, but the list of external articles is getting out of hand; most of the links are showing only the URL with no reference to source or author. The citation system should also be cleaned up: Is there a reason why both footnotes and embedded links are being used? -- Pastricide! Non-absorbing 23:35, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I realize that opinions diverge about this candidate, but the 'controversies' section rapidly degenerated into a hatchet job of dubiously-selected quotations. Just adding the paragraph alone that each came from changed the tone immensely.
A serious issue with this page will be that critics of Ignatieff will want the "controversies" section to dominate the page - as it already does in length - and it's difficult to prevent that without heavy-handed editing on the part of pro-Ignatieff contributers. As I am a relative newb to wikipedia I've done very little here; I removed the gratiutous "granta" bit which was obviously just meant to sauce-up the rather silly "first person plural" argument which was already stated plainly enough in the preceeding passage. Other than that I added in Roth's statement in the Star to balance out Gearty's claims (Which I find highly academically dubious; the Bush administration's mentality on torture has been developed wholly independantly of any academic discourses, and then again within the academic discourses, Ignatieff is highly anti-torture both in absolute and relative terms. The arguments might be made about Alan Dershowitz, but even then I think that the administration's paper trail (now a matter of considerable investigation) has little reference to legitimate academic opinion. Please pardon my inadvertant newbishness vis a vis the wikipedia interface. Jason Townsend 00:27 GMT April 14
[11]Ronald Steel, the author of Temptations of a Superpower and other books about American political thought and foreign relations, teaches international relations at the University of Southern California. [12] [13] [14]Mariano Aguirre is co-director of the Fundacion para las Relaciones Internacionales y el Dialogo Exterior (Fride), in Madrid. He is the former director of the Peace Research Center (CIP), Madrid and has been a program officer at the Ford Foundation in New York. He is a fellow of the Transnational Institute, Amsterdam. 70.48.207.187 04:03, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Ignatieff employs two tools in his complex job. First, his credentials: he is the director of a prestigious academic human-rights centre, a skilful writer known for advocating a humanitarian intervention in the Balkan wars, the biographer of the heterodox thinker Isaiah Berlin, and a contributor to the New York Times and New York Review of Books. (from the link in the article)
You see, Geary and Aggy disagree with Iggy but suggests that the problem is that Ignatieff is actually very important and that is why he is a problem as he lends his intellectual cache to Rumsfeld and others. Perhaps Ignatieff is outside of the mainstream of his colleagues but that doesn't make him unimportant or less of a figure in his discipline. Indeed, the authors cited above suggest that Ignatieff leads an important and powerful, albeit morally wrong, faction in the discipline.-- JGGardiner 04:42, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
This is an attempt to offer a bit more balance. Someone has decided to add several topic headings quoting Ignatieff on a range of controversial issues, often not providing much context. For a more rounded view, I have added some of Ignatieff's writing on Canada and Canadian rights culture.
I also re-added some passages that had been removed by obviously partisan editers. You may not like Ignatieff's views, but you cannot get around the fact that he is most well known for his writing on human rights; deleting this fact from Wikipedia is just dishonest.
Finally, I gave the full quotation for the "lesser evil" approach. Whoever originally added this section intentionally left out the preceding paragraph where Ignatieff discusses an "outright ban" on torture.
Ok, I wish the partisan editors would stop importing their judgments and "spinning" and let quotations, yes, that includes FULL quotations in FULL context, speak for themselves. You do not need to use emotionally charged adjectives; let people read the quotes and come to their own conclusions. Yes, this means you cannot "by accident" leave out parts of passages where Ignatieff clearly supports a ban on torture. People are free to disagree with his views, but not influence others through intellectual dishonesty.
Fixed up the portion about Ignatieff's "expertise" and removed the NPOV. There appears to be some objection to viewing Ignatieff as a "world reknowned expert", and while I think this is probably the case, I understand why some might object. Done.
-this is unbelievable. He is an expert, just because people take offense at two sentences does not mean he can be written off. Before these partisans had something to gain by his failure he was world-renowned, used in university courses worldwide, served on international commissions (such as in Kosovo), and more. If I think Chomsky is worthless can I erase his expertise in linguistics? No.
I also added some more information about the texts mentioned in the "Recognition" paragraphs. There was no information indicating what the books were about, nor what the awards were for.
Someone added this article to the category "Jewish Canadians". Is there any citation for this? A quick Google search turned up speculation at... er... [http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=227466 Stormfront], which doesn't quite cut it in my book. - Joshuapaquin 23:02, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I know that we are to assume good faith from other editors, but when an anonymous IP adds an NPOV to each and every section to the Wikipedia article, it is clearly an attempt at defacement. I've removed the NPOVs, and also moved around some of the headings for clarification. Also added the "foreign policy" heading under "Controversies" so it is clear what the first paragraph under that heading is referring.
Unfortunately, this entire Wiki article is filled with grade school level writing and needs a lot more editing.
I know this because I just broke up with one of those organizers. They have 2 employees assigned to spin and complicate all references to Iggy's documented support of invading Iraq, torture, reducing civil and human rights, and american expansionism. 67.71.121.208 10:32, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Truth be told, I've found most of the systematic, single-issue edits (ie: by users without any other Wiki articles) are anti-Ignatieff. But JCGardiner is right - if you see something that violates NPOV, fix it. 198.20.40.50
Certain anti-Ignatieff partisans (one noted above) want headlines mentioning "rights" and "privacy" with respect to particular passages where Ignatieff elaborates his "Lesser Evil" approach. Fine. I've removed his duplicate quotes and clarified headlines indicating that passages involve the "Lesser Evil" approach in the context of rights, the rule of law, and privacy concerns.
Just removed the following:
There are a few things here that should be taken issue with: First, that the nomination was 'covert', second, that the 'controversy continues to this day', and third, the idea that Augustine didn't genuinely support Ignatieff (suggested in the modification from previous wording). Anyone well-informed about the Etobicoke-Lakeshore situation has seen plenty of evidence contrary to each of these statements, so until there's a credible source for any of them, I've reverted it. - Joshuapaquin 04:50, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Striking13 is sending unsigned notes to my talk page and seems to want to pov this article in favour of the candidate for Prime Minister,Ignatieff. 64.229.31.222 04:45, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
The talk page is for work on the article. If there is an occurence of pov (including partisan) content on the page either edit it or bring it here. It is unhelpful to simply accuse another editor of bias. They aren't going to get banned for that. You're just going to have to learn to live with each other. Please, comment on content, not on the contributor. -- JGGardiner 05:26, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I reverted the recent edits by 69.158.188.26 as they were blatantly pro-Iggy Pov and completely one sided concerning the nomination process; that editor deleted crucial and documented reports and sanitized the controversy regarding the nomination. 64.229.28.213 12:46, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Reading through the article and the talk page, I still can't figure out whether or not there's anything substantial to the allegations of Ukrainian prejudice. In particular, the claim that the quotation is taken out of context is not supported by any independent references in the article (other than a press release by Ignatieff's campaign, which is clearly not independent). As far as I can tell, the Ukrainian Canadian Congress has not retracted their allegations. Does anyone have a copy of the book in question and can provide the context? Does anyone have a transcript of the PBS TV version of the book? The section needs to be cleaned up with definite information. -- Chris Thompson 23:02, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your comment. That gives me a much better picture. I've spent quite a few hours reading various Ignatieff writings over the last couple of days and it does fit with his style. Though I would agree that admitting to innate emotional personal biases, even if to come down firmly against them later, is a difficult thing to have exposed in the political arena because of the level of modern political discourse. Ignatieff's comments on the Israel/Palestine issue are fairly analogous, and I imagine he'll be crucified for them by both sides. What particularly intrigues me is how he can be both critical of ethnic nationalism and yet a supporter of modern American pseudo-Jeffersonian imperialism with such rose-coloured glasses. In any case, he is a man of complicated opinions. If I feel I can clean up that section of the article, I'll try to. -- Chris Thompson 04:44, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Certainly, Ignatieff's views on torture and Iraq have been "controversial", but I know of no big controversy about those particular citations previous noted re: Rule of Law and privacy rights. Rather, they were simply passages from one of Ignatieff's article where he does his typical "back and forth" discussion on various positions to explain his Lesser Evil analysis. So, I've created a "Lesser Evil" section under "Ideas" which essentially incorporates the ideas from those sections.
I've also moved the "Afghanistan" extension from the "controversies" section, to the more apropriate "Political career" section. It is not NPOV to say Ignatieff's support for the extension was "controversial", one could easily posit that the failure of people to support the extension was controversial but Ignatieff was being principled. Striking13 05:35, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
What are people's feelings about the link to the "satirical" campaign posters for Ignatieff? That link gets added then deleted then added. My feeling is that the parody site is not terribly informative or appropriate as a reference. One would not expect links to a satirical site about the Republican party at the end of its article. Links to reasoned criticism of Ignatieff seem reasonable as a fair counterbalance to the links to pro-Ignatieff sites. (And indeed, the Republican party article contains a link to SaveTheGOP.com.) There is a strong anti-Ignatieff movement in Canada, as evidenced by the protests at his larger speaking engagements, and it's fair to acknowledge that, but the posters link is not informative in my view. On the other hand, the Stop Iggy link is fine, IMHO. Their reasoning is explained and they provide a healthy set of links to Ignatieff's writings. Thoughts? -- Chris Thompson 11:57, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Accidentally re-added them before reading this. My bad. They're gone again.
Um, to the anonymous editor who's been doing this, please don't delete things with the comment "see the talk page" unless there actually is relevant discussion on the talk page about that topic. Thanks. -- Chris Thompson 02:03, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
The quotation of Ignatieff's article in Granta:77 is problematic. Here is written under the section "Attitude toward Canada":
This appears to suggest that America, that is, the country "commands" his faith. But here is what he actually wrote:
This is a subtle, but important distinction. Ignatieff does not say "America" commands his faith; but rather, the "promises" that America keeps to itself does: freedom, liberty, democratic reinvention. Who disagrees with such promises? There is a big difference between saying certain ideas commands one's faith, and saying a country "commands" faith; one involves commitment to ideas, another a nationalist commitment to country.
There are other problems as well. This particular edition of Granta invited a number of writers/journalists/luminaries to write about what "they think of America" as a way to explore what the magazine felt was the quiet anti-Americanism in the response to 9/11:
In this edition, Ignatieff writes under the heading "Canada" (check the article) [16], that is, his article offers a Canadian perspective on the United States. Other writers in the Granta edition write from other country prespectives - Germany, Britain, etc. If this article is being used here under a heading like "Controversies" in order show he has a controversial view towards Canada its pretty intellectually dishonest to leave out this context. As it is, it looks like Ignatieff wrote some article back in 2002 proclaiming America commands his faith. Sheesh! And finally, could someone point out the source for saying this particular article caused some sort of controversy? Because if there isn't a source, pretending it's controversial is not NPOV, or, at least, is original research. -- 24.222.204.12 14:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Someone inserted a link in the "Opponent Sites" category to a webpage that has a retitled version of "The Burden," with the new title "Empire Lite." I'm taking it out for the following reasons: 1) There's already a link to "The Burden" (indeed, it's the first link under "Articles"). 2) I don't see how the annotated version is an opponent site. The pull quotes are decent and for the most part they don't take things out of context or quote selectively. Would an opponent site end with the final pull quote: "The case for empire is that it has become, in a place like Iraq, the last hope for democracy and stability alike"? That seems like an accurate description of what Ignatieff is trying to say in the article. If I were writing an opponent site, I would have chosen to quote the sentence from that section implicitly (not explicitly) linking the impending invasion of Iraq to Sept. 11. For the most part, the site would only seem like an opponent site if the reader has some knee-jerk reaction to the term "empire"... but there is enough context in the pull quotes for people to realize that Ignatieff's use of the term is not purely jingoistic (or even fundamentally neoconservative for that matter). If anything, I'd suspect that site was set up by Ignatieff's campaign team to deflect allegations of neoconservatism. (I did a whois lookup and the actual site creator is shielded by a domains by proxy privacy service, so my ownership comments are just speculation.) 3) The article's renamed title, "Empire Lite," is confusing, since Ignatieff has a book published in 2003 by Penguin also called "Empire Lite." -- Chris Thompson 07:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I noticed in many press releases Ignatieff's 2 children (Theo and Sophie) are mentioned in passing. They are no press reports of them being with him in Canada. They were young teenagers when Ignatieff divorced their mother in London England and then he relocated to the USA. Is it not just a little odd that they have not been involved at all in his campaign? They would be in their late teens or early 20s I think. I also think it's odd for a father to move 6,000 miles away from his teenage kids, even when divorced.
This normally would be nobody's business; but this guy might well be the leader of a G-8 country; shouldn't we know more about his personal life? Also, we know he lied about moving to the riding if elected as MP; so perhaps everything he says should be checked out. His new wife, what is her status in Canada? Is she an immigrant? Could Canada have a PM with a wife who is not a legal resoident? I heard that Ignatieff still uses his Masssachusetts drivers license. Is any of this important? I think so, but perhaps not in the eyes of today's encyclopedia writers. Please lmk what others think about the lack of information about Ignatieff's first family and his current wife. 65.95.149.123 13:58, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
It's as if anything to do with Iggy's first family is being censored (kept out of) Canada's mainstream media and this encyclopedia as well? By contrast, look at the Wikipedia detail on John Kerry's first wife and children.
Here is my concern. I am not a Liberal and, in fact, it would help my party if Ignatieff becomes Liberal leader. However, I have noticed exceptionally misleading information being put out on Iggy to the point where I am a bit worried about my Liberal friends even having access to accurate information about this candidate. The thing with his children seems to me to be quite important and the press reports in Canada can be easily read to give the false impression that they are the children of his present wife; e.g. [17]"Family: Father George Ignatieff, mother Alison Grant; married to Zsuzsanna Zsohar; has two children, Theo and Sophie." I would hope that the background info in an encyclopedia would have some basic info concerning a politician's family which obviously includes their children. Now when you state the No original research rule, does that mean that editors here are only to contribute what information they are personally aware of? Also, Joshuapaquin seems to feel that any expansion of even non-original research about the children's whereabouts or citizenship is too personal to even be put in the encyclopedia; is that the general opinion? Also, does the same taboo apply to Ignatieff's current wife's citizenship, for example? I have removed the "deadbeat dad" reference which was merely to make a point and was clearly not an accusation. It seems to have been quickly picked up to be used as a Strawman argument so I certainly hope that will no longer be attempted. 64.229.185.244 17:58, 26 May 2006 (UTC)