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no 3rd party source. is this how wiki works?
Respectfully, I believe there is an error in the wording of the first sentence "Ludmya 'Mia' B. Love (born 1975) is the first female African-American to serve as a city mayor in Utah." Mia Love is an American born of Haitian parents, as the article later states. The only people who refer to themselves as "African-Americans" are the descendants of American slavery, a name they adapted during the Black Pride Movement. The children of Caribbean immigrants never refer to ourselves as "African Americans," but rather as [country name]-Americans (i.e. Haitian-American in Mayor Love's case), or as "Americans of Caribbean heritage/descent." This is the reason why Caribbeans had a movement starting last February to get their own box on the Census form (see four bullet points up from bottom http://voices.washingtonpost.com/federal-eye/2009/04/eye_opener_obamas_calls_for_su.html). I propose that the sentence be changed to "Ludmya 'Mia' B. Love (born 1975) is the first woman of African descent to serve as a city mayor in Utah." Amberblossoms ( talk) 07:13, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
>The only people who refer to themselves as "African-Americans" are the descendants of American slavery --
> you are so right
The very first paragraph in the Wikipedia article on Barack Obama states "Barack Hussein Obama II (i/bəˈrɑːk huːˈseɪn oʊˈbɑːmə/; born August 4, 1961) is the 44th and current President of the United States. He is the first African American to hold the office." He is not descended from American slaves (well, technically, he might be through his mother's side, but the genealogical evidence is a bit weak). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.191.25.61 ( talk) 15:54, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
The complaint is raised that Mia Love, a personal friend, is not an African-American because her parents were born in Haiti. That is true, for two reasons. First, because her parents were born in Haiti, not Africa. Secondly, because Mia is loathe to be called a hyphenated American of any prior national affiliation. Mia was born in the United States. Those that call themselves African-Americans are almost exclusively members of the the Democrat Party, or any political association that is not of the Republican Party. Mia is a staunch member of the Republican Party. Members of the Republican Party, if a need for a label ever occurs, refer to themselves as Black Americans. Mia Love follows that custom.
Mia Love's ancestors lived in Haiti for many generations removed from the continent of Africa. To the extent that generations of those of "European", et alia, descent do not refer to themselves as such, neither is it correct to refer to Mia Love as of African descent. Again, a need for an ethnocentric label is a quality anathema to members of the Republican Party. UTresident ( talk) 19:52, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
This article has Mia describing herself as "African-American." It is from 2004 though, and I'd be curious to know if there are any current media sources where she doesn't use that phrase. -- Erroneuz1 ( talk) 18:03, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
I don't see what party she may or may not be in has anything to do with it, but if she doesn't identify as "African American" then it shouldn't be there, still no reason to bring partisanship into a manor like this, plus were you really trying to say she isn't of African "descent", not to be rude. but I have ask if you know what the word means? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.64.104.4 ( talk) 20:50, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
I fix the text to remove the "African American" label. Is the tone OK now? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smilingbandit ( talk • contribs) 15:25, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
Why does this keep getting edited, moved, and reworded? This is the actual line from the article, and it follows the paragraphs that discusses dismantling the black caucus....
The caucus isn't the only thing Love said she would dismantle in Washington. The departments of education and energy must go, she said. States, she said, should take back those duties along with health care.
Shouldn't it follow the paragrpahs from the same article where it talks about and she says...
If elected in November, Love would be the first black Republican woman in Congress and Utah's first black representative. She said she would join the Congressional Black Caucus in Washington, D.C., should she win.
"Yes, yes. I would join the Congressional Black Caucus and try to take that thing apart from the inside out," she said.
Though officially nonpartisan, the caucus has been more closely identified with the Democratic Party.
"It’s demagoguery. They sit there and ignite emotions and ignite racism when there isn’t," Love said. "They use their positions to instill fear. Hope and change is turned into fear and blame. Fear that everybody is going lose everything and blaming Congress for everything instead of taking responsibility."
It doesn't flow, and it's taken out of context when broken up as it's currently worded...the whole idea of her saying she wants to take apart the black caucus is in line with breaking up the dept of education and energy and from the same article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.53.175.49 ( talk) 15:13, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
I do not think this fact is mentioned in the article, and I am not sure if it is relevant or worth mentioning. This article http://newsone.com/346727/meet-mia-love-utahs-first-african-american-mayor/ makes that clear with its lead picture, and the earliest Deseret News article on her (from 2004, when she had been on the city council about 9 months) not only mentions that Mia and Jason are of different racial backgrounds, but discusses the way this effects the physical apparence of their children. The fact that she is married to a white man has not come up much in more recent coverage. In fact, thinking about it, the race of her husband is often left unstated, but we clearly have the sources for saying he is white/of European descent. I am not sure how best to phrase that, or where it should be place. I will try, but feel free to relocate it. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 17:46, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Does anyone know if there have to date been any other Haitian Americans serve in congress? If yes, were they children of two Haitian immigrant parents, Haitian immigrants themselves, or more distantly removed from their Haitain roots? John Pack Lambert ( talk) 18:12, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
--- The Wiki for Colin Powell lists him as the son of Jamaican immigrants but also calls him 'African-American'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.21.46.32 ( talk) 13:28, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
The photo currently displayed is low quality, there must be some quality headshots out there, any objection to a change? Cavdoc ( talk) 03:23, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
Should we include the national news mention on this edit, which included the quoted language above? 99.102.212.191 ( talk) 16:20, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
It appears the event has given the candidate a significant bounce in money: Slate The event is also rippling out on both sides of the ideological aisle: policymic. It's worth noting, especially as it has clearly generated more newsprint than any other event in her life save possibly for her speech. 99.102.212.191 ( talk) 21:34, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
The consensus appears to be to leave it out. I'm not quite sure why you are so adamant about including it, but you don't appear to have much support for having it in the article. 72Dino ( talk) 00:59, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
The vandalism to this page has now become a notable event. I think there should be a section noting that the vandalism occured, but the comments themselves have no place on the article or the talk page. Just my two cents. Korentop ( talk) 03:18, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
At this point, I'm going to concur that the vandalism has become a notable event as it has now been featured in a large number of US national news stories. Is vandalism notable and SHOULD this incident be notable? Of course not... we revert thousands and thousands of vandalism hits a day, but this particular one has apparently taken off in the media. HOWEVER(!!!), I'm not convinced that it is suitable for inclusion based on WP:RECENT and WP:NOTNEWS, this is something that I feel will have to develop a little longer before we know if it's something that will have a lasting impact. The WP:UNDUE argument is crap, though. You want to find the most POV person in a political article debate? Look for the person that is waving around the WP:UNDUE flag the most. Trusilver 16:57, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure why we call it "vandalism." How can they be "vandals" when we essentially hand them a can of spray paint and show them the way to the boxcars?
I am constantly criticized when I quote Wikipedia on other sites, specifically for that reason -- we don't even try to vet our contributors. Understand that the criticism I get isn't that we don't try hard enough. It's that we don't try at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tbone0106 ( talk • contribs) 18:55, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
Make sure statements are well sourced. If there is a statement in the article that "Love will be the first x" it needs to have a source. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:15, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
Here http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865561398/Mia-Love-speech-at-Republican-National-Convention-pitch-perfect-on-national-stage.html is a good Deseret News article on her speach. I am not sure how best to incorporate anything from it in the article. I will leave that to others who are better at incorporating material into articles. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:25, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
Here http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/08/mia-love-gops-african-american-mormon-candidate-rocks-rnc/ is a what looks like a blog/opinion peace on her speach. I am not sure that saying she "energized the convention" is worth putting in the article. It seems a lot like presentist passing statements, but it might be worth noting. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:29, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
Upon reflection, she is seen as a Republican "rising star" ! Here is a quote from a day later: "And her speech was refreshingly positive, focusing on her experience as the daughter of Haitian immigrants."
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In External links, please move the parameter in the standalone IMDb template into the CongLinks template. 184.78.81.245 ( talk) 13:55, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
Editors here are discussing 'notability'. What is most notable is that Mia Love is poised to be the first black Republican congressman in the history of the nation. Here's a current quote: Ludmya "Mia" Bourdeau Love is the mayor of Saratoga Springs, Utah, and the 2012 Republican Party nominee for the United States House of Representatives in Utah's 4th congressional district.
This is why people will be coming to Wikipedia to read about Mia Love. — Charles Edwin Shipp ( talk) 14:49, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
The good thing about America is that we can beleive whatever we want no matter what race, color or creed.. Mia, I salute you as a strong woman with great values and the fortitude to stand on the principles you live by... That's what makes being an American so great.. The haters can hate but the truth is, the group should not affect the individual liberties of any one person... If the grouop intimidates to change any individuals ideaoligy, that is intimidation and bullying and that is not what America is about.. Stay stong and thank you for your example of dignity and stregth... You are an American!!!! William Hall — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.52.226.90 ( talk) 15:21, 31 August 2012 (UTC) |
My point was that a new section in the Article is needed. I understand the discussion here in TALK. — Charles Edwin Shipp ( talk) 15:38, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
The term "first black Republican congressman" is of course a needless redundancy. The first African American member of congress was a Republican. Actually the first 20 or so African Americans in congress were all Republicans. At present there are two African American Republicans serving in congress, Allen West and Tim Scott. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 17:46, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
As Mother Jones has retracted their original claim, should the language be deleted from the article? Kelly hi! 15:26, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
This http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/55031749-90/love-mia-bourdeau-family.html.csp?page=2 Oct. 8, 2012 "Salt Lake Tribune" article includes comments based on an interview with Mrs. Love's father, Jean Bordeau, in which he presents the view that Mia's birth was the key to permanents resident status and eventual citizenship. Of course Mr. Borudeau may avctually have been wrong, and he might have been able to get enough information and evidence to get permanent status as a political refugree from Papa Doc Duvalier's atocratic regime before then, but the fact that he believes this, although my guess is he is probably right and would not have been able to convince the authorities without a citizen child, it is clear that this is the story that Mia was told from her earliest recollections and to imply that it is a late innovation as part of her campaign is questionable. It feels to me like these is too much attention being given to this issue in the article, and it comes off to me as unfounded accusations, but I am not sure how best to rewrite it to reflect the fact that all agree that this is clearly the story that Mrs. Love was given from her earliest recollection, and no evidence has been put forward that any imigration attorney disagrees with the assesment. So I think a shorter coverage of the issue would be in order, but I will leave figuring out how to do that to another. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 17:43, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
The Anochor Baby debate seems more an election rhetoric issue than a real issue about Mrs. Love's birth, so maybe the indepth coverage of statements about that should be moved to the section of the article on the 2012 congressional election. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 17:43, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
The bottom half of this article needs serious review. It's basically shameless self promotion. Also, this woman is not African-American. She is Haitian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.160.229.42 ( talk) 16:52, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
In reply to first comment. Haitian people are from Africa before they were from Haiti, just like all the other black people in this part of the world (save a view Aboriginals). I understand a person identifying themselves as Haitian, as I have an adopted Haitian brother, I really understand it. But that doesn't change the fact that Haitians descended from Africans, like the rest of the African Americans. 173.18.208.35 ( talk) 08:51, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
Love has announced she is running for congress in 2014. I half wonder if we should lock the article due to past vandalism. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 20:43, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
I hear congratulations are in order! -- Mccommas2 ( talk) 23:28, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
There has not been a consensus here that Love is not African-American. This article [3] from The Grio which mentions that Love would be the first Haitian American in congress, also calls her an African-American. The terms are not mutually exclusive. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 02:29, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
Is Mia Love black? Sort of. Is she African-American? No. She is a black Haitian American. In the United States, the term "black" has the connotation of being an African American, which she is not. This is not a matter of race, it is a matter of ethnicity. Is David Ortiz, the baseball player African American? No. Is he a black Dominican American (Hispanic/Latino)? Yes. Do African Americans speak French? No. Is Haiti in the Latin Union? Yes. Is it in the African Union? No. Her parents are immigrants from a Latin language speaking country, so to assume that you have found a consensus on this talk page to deem her as such when in fact the opposite is being said about her doesn't give you much ground to stand on does it? In fact, I'd like you to show everyone on this talk page where Mia Love herself is quoted referring to herself as an "African American", because below I have listed two references on how Haitian Americans feel about "incorrectly" being called an African-American. The news can talk, articles can write; that still doesn't make a black Haitian American an African American sorry. However, before she was voted into office, can I see her riding an African-American slogan to attract voters in that state to vote for her? Yes of course; but really that would be all it was. Only a politician would ever ride that lie to get themselves into office. (Shocker!) How many black Haitians live in Utah? I would bet if there are any black people living in Utah, by default it would probably be people of African American ancestry. Mia Love is no different than all the other Haitian Americans out there who know who they are ethnicity-wise. However, she would be an African American, if one of her parents was of African-American descent, but she doesn't. For the record, for all who is reading, Haiti is not an all black country. If you want me to I can provide about 500 Haitians who are not; who are actually known. So what does that say about the ones who aren't? In other words, NOT an all black country. We're in the 21st century with all this technology and a Haitian American is a difficult concept to grasp? It's really unbelievable. Plus, we have a wiki category for Mia Love, it's called an "American of Haitian descent." At least someone got it right. Cheers. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 08:37, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
Immigration and Religion in America: Comparative and Historical Perspectives edited by Richard D. Alba, Albert J. Raboteau, Josh DeWind pg. 328
Haitian Immigrants in Black America: A Sociological and Sociolinguistic Portrait By Flore Zéphir pg. 45 Savvyjack23 ( talk) 08:37, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
What African American (unless you are from the former French colony Louisiana) has the name Ludmya Bourdeau (later changed to Mia Love)? It's no wonder why we hear little of the progress made by Haitian-Americans, they are all incorrectly referred to as African American! And this was not a "tactical" move to attract votes? Come on, of course it was... Savvyjack23 ( talk) 10:09, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
Reference: [6] Fox got it right. "Black, Haitian American." Savvyjack23 ( talk) 13:33, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
No they are not interchangeable and this article explains why. [11] If you look at a census form it will say "Black OR African American." Not Black/African American. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 12:17, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
I also listed two book sources above on Haitian American heritage. You still can not show me a quote where she calls herself an African American. Enough. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 12:20, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
As I mentioned earlier, the talk page on this is one sided in favor of her being a black Haitian American. That's good enough for a revert. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 12:23, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
So then citation Utah's Mia Love Battles Stereotypes, [17] should be kicked underneath the rug along with other passages I have cited. About the writer of this passage: George F. Will is one of today's most recognized writers, with more than 450 newspapers, a Newsweek column, and his appearances as a political commentator on ABC. Just to let you all know that this isn't just some other blog, and there's a reason why this story is out. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 06:34, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
The section of Love's political positions is poorly written and at times written with a clear bias using the terminology of those who oppose her positions. It also lacks any consideration for the possibility that the postitions she expressed in 2012 may no longer be her views on some issues. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 20:29, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
I just included a section on Love's appointment to the House Financial Services Committee. I also found this http://www.newsmax.com/Politics/Mia-Love-John-Boehner-tea-party/2015/01/08/id/617304/ about her voting for Boehner as speaker. I am not sure it is worth including. Personally I have to wonder if this show of moderation will actually make Love a more viable candidate in 2016, but I have not yet found any sources that express that view. I am not sure how indepth we want to go on her votes. I have noticed in the past that some articles on members of congress, such as the Queen Mum ( King Kwame the imprisoned's mother) Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick at one point gave unwaranted emphasis to one vote. So there needs to be a seeking for broadly written articles that avoid too much play-by-play building. This articles campaign section seems to suffer from signs of being built over time, and not being written all together and never being brought into a working narrative. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 07:42, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
NYT article today: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/19/us/politics/mia-love-campaign-fund-raising.html - doesn't seem quite ready for posting in the article yet, but something to watch for and include if it continues to be a broader part of the discussion. - Dan Eisenberg ( talk) 00:32, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
I think the somewhat-belligerent anonymous editor might have had a point: the section on the midges doesn't really add anything of significance, and exposes the article to perceptions of an anti-Love bias. Although it is cited properly, I think it violates WP:BECONCISE. I feel it gives undue weight to an incident that is less relevant and less important than the rest of the items in the article.
Thoughts? Trevdna ( talk) 20:13, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
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no 3rd party source. is this how wiki works?
Respectfully, I believe there is an error in the wording of the first sentence "Ludmya 'Mia' B. Love (born 1975) is the first female African-American to serve as a city mayor in Utah." Mia Love is an American born of Haitian parents, as the article later states. The only people who refer to themselves as "African-Americans" are the descendants of American slavery, a name they adapted during the Black Pride Movement. The children of Caribbean immigrants never refer to ourselves as "African Americans," but rather as [country name]-Americans (i.e. Haitian-American in Mayor Love's case), or as "Americans of Caribbean heritage/descent." This is the reason why Caribbeans had a movement starting last February to get their own box on the Census form (see four bullet points up from bottom http://voices.washingtonpost.com/federal-eye/2009/04/eye_opener_obamas_calls_for_su.html). I propose that the sentence be changed to "Ludmya 'Mia' B. Love (born 1975) is the first woman of African descent to serve as a city mayor in Utah." Amberblossoms ( talk) 07:13, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
>The only people who refer to themselves as "African-Americans" are the descendants of American slavery --
> you are so right
The very first paragraph in the Wikipedia article on Barack Obama states "Barack Hussein Obama II (i/bəˈrɑːk huːˈseɪn oʊˈbɑːmə/; born August 4, 1961) is the 44th and current President of the United States. He is the first African American to hold the office." He is not descended from American slaves (well, technically, he might be through his mother's side, but the genealogical evidence is a bit weak). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.191.25.61 ( talk) 15:54, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
The complaint is raised that Mia Love, a personal friend, is not an African-American because her parents were born in Haiti. That is true, for two reasons. First, because her parents were born in Haiti, not Africa. Secondly, because Mia is loathe to be called a hyphenated American of any prior national affiliation. Mia was born in the United States. Those that call themselves African-Americans are almost exclusively members of the the Democrat Party, or any political association that is not of the Republican Party. Mia is a staunch member of the Republican Party. Members of the Republican Party, if a need for a label ever occurs, refer to themselves as Black Americans. Mia Love follows that custom.
Mia Love's ancestors lived in Haiti for many generations removed from the continent of Africa. To the extent that generations of those of "European", et alia, descent do not refer to themselves as such, neither is it correct to refer to Mia Love as of African descent. Again, a need for an ethnocentric label is a quality anathema to members of the Republican Party. UTresident ( talk) 19:52, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
This article has Mia describing herself as "African-American." It is from 2004 though, and I'd be curious to know if there are any current media sources where she doesn't use that phrase. -- Erroneuz1 ( talk) 18:03, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
I don't see what party she may or may not be in has anything to do with it, but if she doesn't identify as "African American" then it shouldn't be there, still no reason to bring partisanship into a manor like this, plus were you really trying to say she isn't of African "descent", not to be rude. but I have ask if you know what the word means? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.64.104.4 ( talk) 20:50, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
I fix the text to remove the "African American" label. Is the tone OK now? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smilingbandit ( talk • contribs) 15:25, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
Why does this keep getting edited, moved, and reworded? This is the actual line from the article, and it follows the paragraphs that discusses dismantling the black caucus....
The caucus isn't the only thing Love said she would dismantle in Washington. The departments of education and energy must go, she said. States, she said, should take back those duties along with health care.
Shouldn't it follow the paragrpahs from the same article where it talks about and she says...
If elected in November, Love would be the first black Republican woman in Congress and Utah's first black representative. She said she would join the Congressional Black Caucus in Washington, D.C., should she win.
"Yes, yes. I would join the Congressional Black Caucus and try to take that thing apart from the inside out," she said.
Though officially nonpartisan, the caucus has been more closely identified with the Democratic Party.
"It’s demagoguery. They sit there and ignite emotions and ignite racism when there isn’t," Love said. "They use their positions to instill fear. Hope and change is turned into fear and blame. Fear that everybody is going lose everything and blaming Congress for everything instead of taking responsibility."
It doesn't flow, and it's taken out of context when broken up as it's currently worded...the whole idea of her saying she wants to take apart the black caucus is in line with breaking up the dept of education and energy and from the same article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.53.175.49 ( talk) 15:13, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
I do not think this fact is mentioned in the article, and I am not sure if it is relevant or worth mentioning. This article http://newsone.com/346727/meet-mia-love-utahs-first-african-american-mayor/ makes that clear with its lead picture, and the earliest Deseret News article on her (from 2004, when she had been on the city council about 9 months) not only mentions that Mia and Jason are of different racial backgrounds, but discusses the way this effects the physical apparence of their children. The fact that she is married to a white man has not come up much in more recent coverage. In fact, thinking about it, the race of her husband is often left unstated, but we clearly have the sources for saying he is white/of European descent. I am not sure how best to phrase that, or where it should be place. I will try, but feel free to relocate it. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 17:46, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Does anyone know if there have to date been any other Haitian Americans serve in congress? If yes, were they children of two Haitian immigrant parents, Haitian immigrants themselves, or more distantly removed from their Haitain roots? John Pack Lambert ( talk) 18:12, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
--- The Wiki for Colin Powell lists him as the son of Jamaican immigrants but also calls him 'African-American'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.21.46.32 ( talk) 13:28, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
The photo currently displayed is low quality, there must be some quality headshots out there, any objection to a change? Cavdoc ( talk) 03:23, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
Should we include the national news mention on this edit, which included the quoted language above? 99.102.212.191 ( talk) 16:20, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
It appears the event has given the candidate a significant bounce in money: Slate The event is also rippling out on both sides of the ideological aisle: policymic. It's worth noting, especially as it has clearly generated more newsprint than any other event in her life save possibly for her speech. 99.102.212.191 ( talk) 21:34, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
The consensus appears to be to leave it out. I'm not quite sure why you are so adamant about including it, but you don't appear to have much support for having it in the article. 72Dino ( talk) 00:59, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
The vandalism to this page has now become a notable event. I think there should be a section noting that the vandalism occured, but the comments themselves have no place on the article or the talk page. Just my two cents. Korentop ( talk) 03:18, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
At this point, I'm going to concur that the vandalism has become a notable event as it has now been featured in a large number of US national news stories. Is vandalism notable and SHOULD this incident be notable? Of course not... we revert thousands and thousands of vandalism hits a day, but this particular one has apparently taken off in the media. HOWEVER(!!!), I'm not convinced that it is suitable for inclusion based on WP:RECENT and WP:NOTNEWS, this is something that I feel will have to develop a little longer before we know if it's something that will have a lasting impact. The WP:UNDUE argument is crap, though. You want to find the most POV person in a political article debate? Look for the person that is waving around the WP:UNDUE flag the most. Trusilver 16:57, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure why we call it "vandalism." How can they be "vandals" when we essentially hand them a can of spray paint and show them the way to the boxcars?
I am constantly criticized when I quote Wikipedia on other sites, specifically for that reason -- we don't even try to vet our contributors. Understand that the criticism I get isn't that we don't try hard enough. It's that we don't try at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tbone0106 ( talk • contribs) 18:55, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
Make sure statements are well sourced. If there is a statement in the article that "Love will be the first x" it needs to have a source. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:15, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
Here http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865561398/Mia-Love-speech-at-Republican-National-Convention-pitch-perfect-on-national-stage.html is a good Deseret News article on her speach. I am not sure how best to incorporate anything from it in the article. I will leave that to others who are better at incorporating material into articles. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:25, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
Here http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/08/mia-love-gops-african-american-mormon-candidate-rocks-rnc/ is a what looks like a blog/opinion peace on her speach. I am not sure that saying she "energized the convention" is worth putting in the article. It seems a lot like presentist passing statements, but it might be worth noting. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:29, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
Upon reflection, she is seen as a Republican "rising star" ! Here is a quote from a day later: "And her speech was refreshingly positive, focusing on her experience as the daughter of Haitian immigrants."
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In External links, please move the parameter in the standalone IMDb template into the CongLinks template. 184.78.81.245 ( talk) 13:55, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
Editors here are discussing 'notability'. What is most notable is that Mia Love is poised to be the first black Republican congressman in the history of the nation. Here's a current quote: Ludmya "Mia" Bourdeau Love is the mayor of Saratoga Springs, Utah, and the 2012 Republican Party nominee for the United States House of Representatives in Utah's 4th congressional district.
This is why people will be coming to Wikipedia to read about Mia Love. — Charles Edwin Shipp ( talk) 14:49, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
The good thing about America is that we can beleive whatever we want no matter what race, color or creed.. Mia, I salute you as a strong woman with great values and the fortitude to stand on the principles you live by... That's what makes being an American so great.. The haters can hate but the truth is, the group should not affect the individual liberties of any one person... If the grouop intimidates to change any individuals ideaoligy, that is intimidation and bullying and that is not what America is about.. Stay stong and thank you for your example of dignity and stregth... You are an American!!!! William Hall — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.52.226.90 ( talk) 15:21, 31 August 2012 (UTC) |
My point was that a new section in the Article is needed. I understand the discussion here in TALK. — Charles Edwin Shipp ( talk) 15:38, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
The term "first black Republican congressman" is of course a needless redundancy. The first African American member of congress was a Republican. Actually the first 20 or so African Americans in congress were all Republicans. At present there are two African American Republicans serving in congress, Allen West and Tim Scott. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 17:46, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
As Mother Jones has retracted their original claim, should the language be deleted from the article? Kelly hi! 15:26, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
This http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/55031749-90/love-mia-bourdeau-family.html.csp?page=2 Oct. 8, 2012 "Salt Lake Tribune" article includes comments based on an interview with Mrs. Love's father, Jean Bordeau, in which he presents the view that Mia's birth was the key to permanents resident status and eventual citizenship. Of course Mr. Borudeau may avctually have been wrong, and he might have been able to get enough information and evidence to get permanent status as a political refugree from Papa Doc Duvalier's atocratic regime before then, but the fact that he believes this, although my guess is he is probably right and would not have been able to convince the authorities without a citizen child, it is clear that this is the story that Mia was told from her earliest recollections and to imply that it is a late innovation as part of her campaign is questionable. It feels to me like these is too much attention being given to this issue in the article, and it comes off to me as unfounded accusations, but I am not sure how best to rewrite it to reflect the fact that all agree that this is clearly the story that Mrs. Love was given from her earliest recollection, and no evidence has been put forward that any imigration attorney disagrees with the assesment. So I think a shorter coverage of the issue would be in order, but I will leave figuring out how to do that to another. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 17:43, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
The Anochor Baby debate seems more an election rhetoric issue than a real issue about Mrs. Love's birth, so maybe the indepth coverage of statements about that should be moved to the section of the article on the 2012 congressional election. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 17:43, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
The bottom half of this article needs serious review. It's basically shameless self promotion. Also, this woman is not African-American. She is Haitian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.160.229.42 ( talk) 16:52, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
In reply to first comment. Haitian people are from Africa before they were from Haiti, just like all the other black people in this part of the world (save a view Aboriginals). I understand a person identifying themselves as Haitian, as I have an adopted Haitian brother, I really understand it. But that doesn't change the fact that Haitians descended from Africans, like the rest of the African Americans. 173.18.208.35 ( talk) 08:51, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
Love has announced she is running for congress in 2014. I half wonder if we should lock the article due to past vandalism. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 20:43, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
I hear congratulations are in order! -- Mccommas2 ( talk) 23:28, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
There has not been a consensus here that Love is not African-American. This article [3] from The Grio which mentions that Love would be the first Haitian American in congress, also calls her an African-American. The terms are not mutually exclusive. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 02:29, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
Is Mia Love black? Sort of. Is she African-American? No. She is a black Haitian American. In the United States, the term "black" has the connotation of being an African American, which she is not. This is not a matter of race, it is a matter of ethnicity. Is David Ortiz, the baseball player African American? No. Is he a black Dominican American (Hispanic/Latino)? Yes. Do African Americans speak French? No. Is Haiti in the Latin Union? Yes. Is it in the African Union? No. Her parents are immigrants from a Latin language speaking country, so to assume that you have found a consensus on this talk page to deem her as such when in fact the opposite is being said about her doesn't give you much ground to stand on does it? In fact, I'd like you to show everyone on this talk page where Mia Love herself is quoted referring to herself as an "African American", because below I have listed two references on how Haitian Americans feel about "incorrectly" being called an African-American. The news can talk, articles can write; that still doesn't make a black Haitian American an African American sorry. However, before she was voted into office, can I see her riding an African-American slogan to attract voters in that state to vote for her? Yes of course; but really that would be all it was. Only a politician would ever ride that lie to get themselves into office. (Shocker!) How many black Haitians live in Utah? I would bet if there are any black people living in Utah, by default it would probably be people of African American ancestry. Mia Love is no different than all the other Haitian Americans out there who know who they are ethnicity-wise. However, she would be an African American, if one of her parents was of African-American descent, but she doesn't. For the record, for all who is reading, Haiti is not an all black country. If you want me to I can provide about 500 Haitians who are not; who are actually known. So what does that say about the ones who aren't? In other words, NOT an all black country. We're in the 21st century with all this technology and a Haitian American is a difficult concept to grasp? It's really unbelievable. Plus, we have a wiki category for Mia Love, it's called an "American of Haitian descent." At least someone got it right. Cheers. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 08:37, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
Immigration and Religion in America: Comparative and Historical Perspectives edited by Richard D. Alba, Albert J. Raboteau, Josh DeWind pg. 328
Haitian Immigrants in Black America: A Sociological and Sociolinguistic Portrait By Flore Zéphir pg. 45 Savvyjack23 ( talk) 08:37, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
What African American (unless you are from the former French colony Louisiana) has the name Ludmya Bourdeau (later changed to Mia Love)? It's no wonder why we hear little of the progress made by Haitian-Americans, they are all incorrectly referred to as African American! And this was not a "tactical" move to attract votes? Come on, of course it was... Savvyjack23 ( talk) 10:09, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
Reference: [6] Fox got it right. "Black, Haitian American." Savvyjack23 ( talk) 13:33, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
No they are not interchangeable and this article explains why. [11] If you look at a census form it will say "Black OR African American." Not Black/African American. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 12:17, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
I also listed two book sources above on Haitian American heritage. You still can not show me a quote where she calls herself an African American. Enough. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 12:20, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
As I mentioned earlier, the talk page on this is one sided in favor of her being a black Haitian American. That's good enough for a revert. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 12:23, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
So then citation Utah's Mia Love Battles Stereotypes, [17] should be kicked underneath the rug along with other passages I have cited. About the writer of this passage: George F. Will is one of today's most recognized writers, with more than 450 newspapers, a Newsweek column, and his appearances as a political commentator on ABC. Just to let you all know that this isn't just some other blog, and there's a reason why this story is out. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 06:34, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
The section of Love's political positions is poorly written and at times written with a clear bias using the terminology of those who oppose her positions. It also lacks any consideration for the possibility that the postitions she expressed in 2012 may no longer be her views on some issues. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 20:29, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
I just included a section on Love's appointment to the House Financial Services Committee. I also found this http://www.newsmax.com/Politics/Mia-Love-John-Boehner-tea-party/2015/01/08/id/617304/ about her voting for Boehner as speaker. I am not sure it is worth including. Personally I have to wonder if this show of moderation will actually make Love a more viable candidate in 2016, but I have not yet found any sources that express that view. I am not sure how indepth we want to go on her votes. I have noticed in the past that some articles on members of congress, such as the Queen Mum ( King Kwame the imprisoned's mother) Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick at one point gave unwaranted emphasis to one vote. So there needs to be a seeking for broadly written articles that avoid too much play-by-play building. This articles campaign section seems to suffer from signs of being built over time, and not being written all together and never being brought into a working narrative. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 07:42, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
NYT article today: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/19/us/politics/mia-love-campaign-fund-raising.html - doesn't seem quite ready for posting in the article yet, but something to watch for and include if it continues to be a broader part of the discussion. - Dan Eisenberg ( talk) 00:32, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
I think the somewhat-belligerent anonymous editor might have had a point: the section on the midges doesn't really add anything of significance, and exposes the article to perceptions of an anti-Love bias. Although it is cited properly, I think it violates WP:BECONCISE. I feel it gives undue weight to an incident that is less relevant and less important than the rest of the items in the article.
Thoughts? Trevdna ( talk) 20:13, 1 April 2019 (UTC)